Integrity in Leadership and in Ministry - Part 1 | Sean Morgan & Tyler Scott

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[00:00:14] But when you're a

[00:00:16] When you're a ministry leader and that happens like it's

[00:00:22] Devastation okay, you people are literally questioning their salvation does wait does does my faith count?

[00:00:28] Is it really just it's a completely different thing and so there's just more more at stake, you know

[00:00:35] Today on the Leadership Collective Podcast

[00:00:37] We're talking about integrity in ministry and leadership and our guests today are two great guys

[00:00:44] We have Sean Morgan who is the host of one of my favorite leadership podcast called leaders in living rooms

[00:00:51] And he's the founder of the Ascent Leader Ministries

[00:00:55] And we also have pastor Tyler Scott lead pastor of community Presbyterian Church in Danville, California

[00:01:03] Welcome to the program guys. It's good to be here with you guys

[00:01:07] Thanks so much glad to be here. Hey before we jump into this conversation today

[00:01:12] Why don't you both take a minute and just share a little bit of

[00:01:16] background about yourselves and kind of how you got to where you're at and what you're doing today and

[00:01:21] Sean let's go ahead and start with you

[00:01:23] Yeah, absolutely

[00:01:25] Well, I grew up in a home where my dad was actually a church architect

[00:01:29] And I tell people when you get involved as a as a young adolescent

[00:01:34] Impressionable kid in churches and your only view of church is the building committee

[00:01:38] arguing about the color of carpet in the lobby

[00:01:41] You grow up and don't really want much to do with organized church. And so my plan was the military. I had a

[00:01:49] Wonder loss for aviation

[00:01:51] God opened up some doors and I got to

[00:01:54] To fly in the military. So I got to pursue that and

[00:01:58] Along the way though God sort of I shifted a little bit out of full-time military into part-time

[00:02:04] And I did not know that God was creating when you go to part-time the weekend warrior

[00:02:11] kind of thing it becomes a part-time job and

[00:02:15] You have to have a full-time job to sort of make ends meet and

[00:02:20] God opened up a door for me

[00:02:22] I was involved in a church plant that was growing quickly and I came on as their first

[00:02:27] executive pastor I

[00:02:29] Thought it would take me about a year to fix a couple things that the pastor asked me to

[00:02:34] Get involved in it actually took about eight and a half years. So that was a little tricky

[00:02:39] tell my wife, hey, you know this thing I thought was gonna do for 12 months and

[00:02:44] honestly

[00:02:46] in a lot of ways

[00:02:47] Ministry as hard as it is and as hard as it can be especially in the middle of your career to leave one thing and get into ministry

[00:02:56] We've really never looked back

[00:02:58] every

[00:02:59] transition that we've made in our ministry roles has been rough and

[00:03:06] An amazing blessing. We would never

[00:03:08] Redo we are we would never do differently. We would go back and do it the same way and God's used that obedience

[00:03:14] And so the last few years the last decade or so I've been doing leadership coaching which

[00:03:19] Has taken the shape of founding an organization called the ascent leader that focuses on

[00:03:25] relational leadership development

[00:03:27] cohorts

[00:03:28] Kind of getting off the beaten path and really building a sense of connection and community

[00:03:34] That then results in leadership growth not really focusing on like cramming content, but really connection first

[00:03:41] So that's what we do. That's actually what I think brought us together

[00:03:45] Rob is some of that work done on your radar and that's what brought Tyler and I together

[00:03:50] Handful of years as well. So it's just an honor to be here. Thanks for asking. That's awesome. What about you Tyler?

[00:03:55] What's your background?

[00:03:56] Yeah, I can say one thing about Sean real quick sure

[00:03:59] One of the things I'm most grateful for is many years ago a close friend at a Thrive conference up at Bayside

[00:04:06] Walked me into the green room after we had done a couple teachings and we were meeting up with a few other guys

[00:04:13] And he would literally walk me right up to Sean. He goes that's Sean Morgan

[00:04:16] You need to meet him you need to get in a cohort with him like God will change your life through that and

[00:04:22] That friend was absolutely right and so meeting Sean was it has been one of the richest blessings

[00:04:29] In my ministry life and career really not just ministry, but life. He's such a great friend now

[00:04:35] You know this Sean. I've told you this before but what he did in the Air Force as a pilot is the perfect

[00:04:41] Metaphor for what he does in life and what God has like called him to do

[00:04:45] He flew the big tankers that in the air at like 36 40,000 feet

[00:04:51] Would like lower the boom into f16 and f18 jets and

[00:04:56] Refuel them to head back into battle and that is the perfect metaphor for what Sean does with his life

[00:05:02] What God has called them to and what he's given a platform to do

[00:05:06] He refuels and revitalizes and refreshes

[00:05:10] Leaders and he gives them tools like that's what he does with his podcast

[00:05:13] which he does his personal life and

[00:05:15] It's a it's a privilege to not just be in ministry with him, but to call him a friend. So that's awesome

[00:05:20] I love that picture so tell us a little bit about your background though Tyler and how you ended up where you're at today

[00:05:26] sure personally I'm I

[00:05:29] Have been married to my wife Bridget. It's a little personal background for 23 years

[00:05:33] We got three boys Trevor Owen and Cole. They're

[00:05:37] 1917-15

[00:05:38] Big into sports and they also love the Lord so I'm grateful for both of those

[00:05:43] We live in Danville, California, which is about 30 miles east of San Francisco and a pastor CPC Danville

[00:05:50] Which is a long a long tenured presbyterian church in the East Bay a little bit of my journey

[00:05:57] I grew up here in the East Bay

[00:06:00] I was born in Walnut Creek and I've been a California resident my whole life went to UCLA for

[00:06:06] undergrad went to Pepperdine for business school after that and then

[00:06:10] Launched into a career in commercial real estate and my goal was to make as much money as possible

[00:06:17] And that was my plan for my life. I love the Lord and I love the church at that point

[00:06:23] Even though I didn't go up in the church

[00:06:24] I got saved when I was in middle school and had some really awesome middle school and high school and college

[00:06:30] Ministries that I was a part of and learned a lot about ministry being a part of really healthy ministries

[00:06:37] But then I wanted to crush it in business

[00:06:40] so kind of set myself up to do that and was in working at real estate for the first year and

[00:06:47] once I got settled back here in the Bay Area moving back up here after business school and

[00:06:52] Started to work at a real estate company in the city

[00:06:55] I started to volunteer at our local church

[00:06:57] Which is three crosses church in Castro Valley where I was going at the time and we launched a young adult ministry

[00:07:04] That was kind of a post college 22 to 35 and we had a group of 20 people that were like the launch team

[00:07:11] and they just said hey, why don't you bring the message the first week and I said sure and

[00:07:17] Anyway, that was the beginning of what the Lord used to call me in the ministry that

[00:07:22] That ministry kind of blew up and took off and I started teaching every week

[00:07:26] And so in that first year in commercial real estate like I don't know how much you guys know about that that field

[00:07:32] But and not that I know that much either because the Lord called me out of it in that year

[00:07:37] but

[00:07:37] You don't make a lot of money at the beginning in that first year

[00:07:41] Kind of build it up your pipeline

[00:07:42] But then you can start to make serious money in year two and your three if you're in a good

[00:07:48] Company or on a good team and so I've realized that the Lord part of his grace in my life is

[00:07:54] Recognizing that I had it in me to chase money and things and those types of things and before

[00:08:00] That part of the world could really get its hooks in me

[00:08:03] The Lord kind of protect me from that and showed me that that might be what I was paid to do

[00:08:08] But what I was made to do was to work as a pastor in the church and so

[00:08:13] He called me in the midst of that first year at the end of that time

[00:08:16] I quit my job and obviously I had some wise counsel that were like we think this is what God has for you and

[00:08:24] So quick commercial real estate went to work full-time at that church three crosses Church in Castro Valley

[00:08:29] And was there almost 20 years as a pastor and

[00:08:34] eventually as a teaching pastor and then

[00:08:37] You make seminary in there as well so went back to Fuller and got an MDiv and then

[00:08:42] The Lord called me back to three crosses after finishing at Fuller

[00:08:46] I thought I would be there forever and then about yeah, 12 13 years ago

[00:08:52] Kind of out of the blue my home church CPC Dambel the one that I grew up in

[00:08:57] Called and said hey, would you consider a teaching pastor role here?

[00:09:00] And the lead pastor was getting ready to retire in a few years

[00:09:04] He's like I can't guarantee that that you would be the next person

[00:09:08] but I could you know put you in a position to have a seat at the table and and

[00:09:12] Maybe have a chance to pastor the church that you grew up in and the Lord just

[00:09:17] Used that to to call me into ministry. So that was 12 years ago and then eight years ago

[00:09:22] I became the lead pastor and

[00:09:25] It's been a

[00:09:28] Fun

[00:09:30] Ride over these eight years

[00:09:33] Because our our church is an awesome church, but it had I

[00:09:37] guess the best term it had some

[00:09:40] Overdue organizational maintenance that

[00:09:45] That we've been able to wade through and the Lord's been good

[00:09:49] So that's yeah, that's kind of how I got in to ministry

[00:09:54] Very little fun one little fun fact

[00:09:56] It's just we're telling it's a little provocative piece is that my my second year by last year in seminary I

[00:10:03] was about to get kicked out of seminary because I couldn't pay and

[00:10:07] To make a long story short. We had missed the financial aid deadline

[00:10:11] At Fuller and so I got called in there and they're like man, you got to pay

[00:10:14] You can't just keep taking classes

[00:10:17] That works and not paying for classes. I was like

[00:10:22] All right, how much do I owe no you owe?

[00:10:25] $15,200 oh wow and you got to you got to make that right before you could take this last year of classes

[00:10:30] And I was like whoa and to make a long story short like two weeks later

[00:10:36] My in-laws flew into town from Minnesota and their dream was to go to a taping of the prices right

[00:10:42] So with a group of students from USC where I've done some speaking at their camps

[00:10:47] We took like 30 students in these vans and my in-laws. My wife didn't even go she was working

[00:10:53] And we went to the prices right and my name got called and I won 16,000 cash

[00:11:00] On the price

[00:11:02] That's amazing

[00:11:04] Like three days before I was about to get kicked out of seminary

[00:11:07] I walk in there, you know with a cash check from cbs and I was like, okay. I think we're good

[00:11:15] The lord provides when he calls he equips and provides there you go come on down

[00:11:20] Come on down

[00:11:22] Well, I think you're uh, you know talking about taking classes

[00:11:26] illegally is a great segue into our topic today of

[00:11:31] integrity and

[00:11:33] legally

[00:11:35] He would gladly pay you Tuesday

[00:11:38] For a degree today, but you know what's interesting is last year carry newhoff did a series of podcasts on this subject of integrity

[00:11:46] Because he believes that there's an integrity crisis

[00:11:50] in the church today

[00:11:51] And pastor chuck swindoll

[00:11:54] He mentioned that there's a major battle today in the church concerning the subject of

[00:12:00] integrity or the lack thereof in in leadership and

[00:12:05] So here we have two, you know major church leaders today saying hey, there's a problem

[00:12:10] today with integrity

[00:12:12] In in ministry

[00:12:15] And newhoff said this that when you lack integrity your actions and words no longer align

[00:12:22] With the public image you portray and you're at risk

[00:12:26] Of moral failure among other things and I think unfortunately each one of us personally knows pastors who are no longer in ministry

[00:12:36] Today because they've had some sort of a moral failure

[00:12:39] And and what's interesting about the ones that I know is that

[00:12:43] These were great men great men who loved god. They loved their families. They loved the church

[00:12:50] But who somehow got off track at some point and

[00:12:54] You know many of these guys that I know were men that I actually considered to be high integrity guys

[00:13:01] But there was slowly an erosion of the integrity that was taking place over time

[00:13:08] And it's just heartbreaking and you know one of the sad things and I don't know if you guys would say this but

[00:13:14] You know, I think I'm a little jaded is that I often say nothing surprises me anymore

[00:13:21] And unfortunately I hate to say that but nothing surprises me anymore. So

[00:13:25] So I want to just start with um, let's let's talk about this

[00:13:30] How would you guys define?

[00:13:33] integrity

[00:13:34] And what does that look like in leadership and ministry?

[00:13:38] Sean you want to give us your thoughts start off

[00:13:42] Yeah, I think I would agree largely with carrey's definition and uh, you know, it's just your inner

[00:13:48] And outer worlds are the same right there. There's truth. There's honesty. Um, there's character to that

[00:13:56] You know integrity is certainly not

[00:13:58] Disagreeing, uh, it's you know being non offensive. That's not

[00:14:03] You know that disagreeing with theology political views or all sorts of other stances

[00:14:09] None of that affects integrity, but your your inner world

[00:14:13] Your your thought life

[00:14:16] Has to align with your outer world and

[00:14:20] I think it's important to note from that standpoint. I think everybody

[00:14:25] Fails the integrity test

[00:14:29] You know, nobody has a perfect heart

[00:14:34] you know, there's a

[00:14:36] there's a verse about

[00:14:38] Having a stony stubborn heart and

[00:14:41] God making it a warm tender heart of flesh and I think honestly in a lot of ways that that has to be

[00:14:48] Date that that's a daily battle. That's an hourly battle sometimes a momentary battle

[00:14:54] Satan isn't very creative

[00:14:58] But he's really effective and there's a few things that I think

[00:15:04] In this integrity inner and outer world that are really at the root of probably all of the people

[00:15:10] You and I and others know that have fallen

[00:15:14] From positions of influence particularly ministry

[00:15:18] So that's a little bit more than just the definition, but um, I'll turn it over to tyler

[00:15:24] Yeah, thanks, Sean. Um when I think of integrity

[00:15:29] I actually think of the root word which is integer

[00:15:32] Which means hole

[00:15:34] And in the in the world of math it means hole as opposed to

[00:15:38] numbers that have

[00:15:40] fractions

[00:15:41] And so when I when I think of integrity, I think of wholeness and I think of a picture of a non

[00:15:49] compartmentalized life a non fractioned or fractured life

[00:15:54] So it's it piggybacks on what Sean was saying. It's like your inside is is whole or aligned with your outside

[00:16:01] Your public is whole or aligned

[00:16:03] um with your private and

[00:16:06] Um, I think probably the next place I go from that that word integer or hole

[00:16:11] Is probably something that I heard

[00:16:14] like

[00:16:15] John Maxwell, I think it was who talked about integrity. He said the goal

[00:16:19] Of his life is for the people that know him the best to love and respect him the most

[00:16:27] Um, that was the goal of his life in his ministry. And so um, that's another picture of integrity that I get

[00:16:33] Tyler can you elaborate a little bit more on that non compartmentalized life because I think that

[00:16:40] That's hard, you know, I think even as men we have a tendency

[00:16:44] to compartmentalize things so much and and uh

[00:16:49] So elaborate on that a little bit more into what a non compartmentalized life in ministry would would mean and look like

[00:16:57] Yeah, I I think it's probably more of a non compartmentalized heart heart than a non compartmentalized life

[00:17:05] The whole heart in it so to your point, especially as a lead pastor in any ministry, but especially as a lead pastor

[00:17:11] Um, I read somewhere that it's like it's the most

[00:17:15] It's the number one ranked most stressful job in terms of role complexity

[00:17:20] Yep, which means you have to be able to compartmentalize at some level

[00:17:24] Uh, emotionally and time and those types of things to be successful

[00:17:27] So your 8am meeting is with a family in crisis your 9am mini is a budget meeting your 10am meeting is with

[00:17:34] a couple who lost their

[00:17:36] You know, it lost their baby your noon meeting is with staff where you've got to be at a 10 in terms of energy and so on and so forth

[00:17:44] So that's really hard because you got to compartmentalize at some point

[00:17:48] But I think it's the wholeness of of heart

[00:17:52] so

[00:17:53] um

[00:17:54] That is like

[00:17:56] Probably a number of things it's being able to be, you know bear and honest before the lord

[00:18:01] It's it's having accountability in your life where people who know you and are not impressed by you

[00:18:08] Um

[00:18:09] You that you can't you know, if you're leading something big you probably have some ability to

[00:18:15] For lack of a better term

[00:18:18] woo

[00:18:19] and

[00:18:20] And you probably have some vision, but you need some inner circle people who they know the real you

[00:18:26] Good bad and ugly and they're not impressed by you and they're willing to

[00:18:30] To tell you the truth and and you're availing yourself to be held accountable

[00:18:34] Um, anyway, those are a few different angles at that. Yeah that compartmentalized heart

[00:18:39] You know, it's somebody's used the term

[00:18:42] At one time about becoming a professional christian

[00:18:46] And and I think that's the danger

[00:18:49] Is that when we compartmentalize compartmentalize in the sense that

[00:18:54] Um, you know, it's oh, this is the I'm on this is this is my I'm you know

[00:19:00] Let's let's flip that christian switch and now you know now I do my pastor thing

[00:19:05] Um versus you know the heart that says

[00:19:09] Uh, oh i'm off duty

[00:19:11] And I don't I don't need to be a christian now now we would never say that out loud like that

[00:19:16] But but it does happen those times when it creeps in

[00:19:20] when um

[00:19:22] When we get into the danger zone

[00:19:24] of

[00:19:25] now I'm uh

[00:19:27] You know, I'm off the clock so to speak and then we allow our heart to become compartmentalized in issues or entertain

[00:19:34] Things that we we never would never become

[00:19:38] part of

[00:19:39] Our public persona of who we are

[00:19:41] Um and really yeah integrity is being the person in private that uh, you profess to be in public, right? So

[00:19:48] Yeah, absolutely

[00:19:50] So so I think we're

[00:19:52] Is establishing here that this is there's a big heart component attached to this

[00:19:58] And I think the erosion of this starts, you know in the heart. What do you guys think are some of the warning signs?

[00:20:05] Um of this maybe starting, you know in in the heart where you're not being in private who you are

[00:20:13] In or perceived to be you know in public. Um any thoughts on that ted?

[00:20:19] Yeah, I was I was uh, I was afraid about that. Um

[00:20:23] And what immediately came to mind was was sol in first samuel 15

[00:20:27] And uh, you know, he's been given the assignment to go attack the malachites and he does it diligently

[00:20:35] um, he attacks them all the way from havala to sure

[00:20:38] Um

[00:20:39] But then he spares ag ag what he's been warned not to do

[00:20:43] And the best of the sheep the best of the oxen the best of the fatlings of the lambs and then samuel's showing up and he's like

[00:20:50] you know

[00:20:52] Hey samuel, I did everything everything I was supposed to do. He's like well, what's

[00:20:57] What's this sheep and you know oxen that i'm hearing in my ears then, you know

[00:21:01] and um

[00:21:03] And so, you know, there's this dishonesty

[00:21:06] That creeps into sol's life and it's a dishonesty. He's dishonest even with himself

[00:21:11] Um, and he's unwilling to do those those extreme things that god's called him to

[00:21:17] At the more pleasurable things that seem right to him. There's a way seems right to a man

[00:21:22] but it's in is the way of death

[00:21:24] And you know, so I think that that um

[00:21:29] That dishonesty of heart

[00:21:32] Um

[00:21:33] Where we're deceived ourselves. That's that's uh, that's a real danger

[00:21:37] It's interesting to me and in sol's story too because there's a rational as I rationalizing of his disobedience

[00:21:44] There is well, and I think that that's something that easy to happen. We start rationalizing like oh, it's just a little bit

[00:21:51] Oh, isn't that big of a deal?

[00:21:53] Um, what are your thoughts on that shan that where's that erosion of the heart start?

[00:22:00] Yeah, I think first of all, Ted

[00:22:02] I think that's really insightful about honesty with yourself because as I wrote down in my notes different things

[00:22:08] That we might talk about today this this brutally honest with yourself is not a comfortable place

[00:22:14] And I don't think actually very many people

[00:22:18] Even contemplate where am I being dishonest with myself?

[00:22:22] um

[00:22:23] and

[00:22:24] I think that's at the the very root of a broken and can can try heart is

[00:22:29] Uh, um honest reflection self-reflection. So I think that's there, but I think

[00:22:34] close to it is um, what I put is I think two really dangerous ingredients is

[00:22:40] That's isolation

[00:22:42] particularly with those in power or or positions

[00:22:47] um higher positions

[00:22:48] so isolation

[00:22:51] particularly

[00:22:52] When you're in a position of power

[00:22:55] And what does that look like? What does isolation look like? It doesn't actually have to mean physical or social

[00:23:03] Isolation, although it often does include elements of that

[00:23:07] But really I think it's um emotional

[00:23:12] You know, do you know, do you have people around you who have access to you?

[00:23:16] Do you have people around you who can say things to you that you do not want to hear?

[00:23:22] um

[00:23:23] And you can you can blur this out if you don't want to use a name but in

[00:23:28] 2016 I got called to willow creek

[00:23:32] To be involved in a conversation around a potential succession for bill hybals

[00:23:38] and there was

[00:23:40] No candor in the room. It scared me actually

[00:23:45] um

[00:23:46] Everything had to be sort of pre approved to be brought up in the room

[00:23:51] And I'd never experienced anything like that in the military or in ministry at the time

[00:23:58] And I think you know, there are elements of that

[00:24:02] That we all have to

[00:24:05] Be diligent about waging war against and so I would absolutely say this this emotional isolation where people can't

[00:24:15] Have access to you

[00:24:17] Can't engage with you can't offer perspective in candor

[00:24:21] To you or they're disincentivized

[00:24:24] Is a is a pretty scary place to be now what that doesn't mean is that everybody has access to you and everybody can

[00:24:31] So I think there's a point there's kind of both ends of a spectrum

[00:24:33] But hopefully the picture that I can leave you with on that is is there there needs to be a certain amount of

[00:24:40] Delibritness and we can all kind of joke and say oh, you know our wives aren't very impressed with us

[00:24:44] And blah blah blah blah, but is that really true?

[00:24:47] Um in your in your home. Yes, and what about in your inner circle outside your home?

[00:24:52] And if if you can't name people

[00:24:55] Who make you uncomfortable when they offer their opinion to you then you're probably not in like the green light zone

[00:25:01] You might be drifting into the yellow or red light zone if you can't name people

[00:25:06] Um and you know even just because you had somebody there five years ago doesn't mean that they're there today

[00:25:12] That's good. That's really really good point

[00:25:15] Would you say too that

[00:25:18] this

[00:25:19] A person who's maybe in that place has a tendency to keep

[00:25:24] Every conversation kind of on a surfacey

[00:25:28] Kind of playing never getting deep because they are emotionally

[00:25:32] isolating themselves

[00:25:35] Yeah, probably I would even

[00:25:38] I think I would agree with that although I would definitely agree if we if we added the word vulnerable in there. Yeah

[00:25:46] You know surrendering and deferring to others

[00:25:51] Often doesn't mean as a leader you don't have

[00:25:54] A decision that you pounce on every now and then and say, you know, I see this pretty clearly

[00:26:00] But if you're doing that all the time

[00:26:02] If you're not deferring to others

[00:26:05] I think there just has to be that

[00:26:08] That side of vulnerability not just deep topics

[00:26:12] but ones where

[00:26:15] You're offering a level of

[00:26:19] Insight and vulnerability and again, there's an appropriateness. I think we can all imagine situations where there's there's sort of

[00:26:27] oversharing or inappropriate

[00:26:29] And it may not even be inappropriate to the right people but in in context or in that circle or at that moment

[00:26:36] That wasn't the right time to

[00:26:38] To share so I think if none of these things happen by accident

[00:26:42] It's like when I hear a boss say to their employees, hey, I have an open door policy

[00:26:47] That's that's actually not an open door policy because you've just sort of shoved the responsibility

[00:26:53] On somebody else. Well, you should have come to me. I have an open door policy

[00:26:56] And an open door policy is not a physically open door. It is a culture that has been

[00:27:02] Cultivated in a certain way to create openness. That's an open door policy

[00:27:07] That's what people will will come by

[00:27:10] Whether your doors closed or open or they have to pick up the phone and call you or interrupt

[00:27:14] That's the type of thing that has to be cultivated

[00:27:18] With trust

[00:27:20] Love that love that

[00:27:22] Great insight Sean. Anything you want to add to that? Tyler

[00:27:27] Oh

[00:27:28] Well, the thing that that I just come back to is that uh, where

[00:27:34] Where that erosion comes from because Sean mentioned ice, you know voiding isolation or the kind of the

[00:27:42] The temptations of isolation and yet leadership is by definition isolating

[00:27:49] So that there's a built-in challenge there. Um, that was one of the aha moments like eight years ago get into this role

[00:27:55] It's like whoa, like it's incredibly isolating. So you got to work

[00:28:00] Um against that actively in order to avoid that but I come back to pride. I just can't

[00:28:06] The erosion of integrity has pride as a root

[00:28:10] You know, c.s. Lewis calls it the great sin and keller calls it the gateway said like you don't sin in other ways

[00:28:16] Without going through that gate of of pride so to speak and so

[00:28:21] it's

[00:28:23] I don't know. Maybe it's the erosion of a true and I mean a heartfelt fear of the lord

[00:28:31] A healthy fear a reverence of the lord also a fear of

[00:28:36] What a lack of integrity could look like because because fear is not all bad

[00:28:41] You know a fear of the lord is

[00:28:43] It's really really good and I can just tell you a personal experience

[00:28:46] So my predecessor at cpc

[00:28:49] Who is a super godly man a high integrity?

[00:28:53] First Corinthians 11 one follow me as I follow christ like the legacy of his

[00:28:59] Two plus decades was his integrity

[00:29:03] Part of the reason it was so beautiful is because he followed someone who had a fall in our church

[00:29:09] At its all-time high of attendance and I was I was a high school

[00:29:15] Senior in our church when it happened and people started standing up in our services women saying

[00:29:21] I having an affair with the guy who's teaching right now like a massive fall

[00:29:27] And I saw it was carnage

[00:29:31] Carnage spiritual carnage relational carnage people questioning their faith. Um now I was

[00:29:38] It was in high school

[00:29:38] So it was hard to process that because I looked at this guy and well, oh my gosh

[00:29:42] He's an he's an orator. He has a silver tongue. He's one of the best teachers

[00:29:46] I've ever seen or heard still to this day one of the most gifted communicators ever

[00:29:51] Um, but he had he had a lack of like you said

[00:29:55] Rob integrity and it just scared me and then you fast forward to the

[00:30:01] First couple years when I was lead pastor

[00:30:04] One of the things we efforted to do is we started this for the valley movement

[00:30:07] We're in a big valley and 150 000 people we started this for movement. We were for the valley

[00:30:13] So I was meeting with the different

[00:30:17] Governance leaders in government local government just trying to build relationship with them

[00:30:21] And so the mayor of our town is sitting in my office

[00:30:25] And he's like gosh, it's interesting to be in this office

[00:30:29] And his name is new all I said new why do you why do you say that?

[00:30:32] And he said well, we were a part of this church

[00:30:36] You know almost 30 years ago when there was that moral failure

[00:30:41] and he said

[00:30:43] In a spiritual sense

[00:30:45] One of the hardest things to get over is what it did

[00:30:49] To my daughter now his daughter is now an adult mother of multiple people. He says

[00:30:55] It's center it that moral failure sent my daughter in a 20 year spiritual spiral. Wow

[00:31:04] And I'm sitting here going like

[00:31:06] that's

[00:31:08] The weight

[00:31:09] Of sin and moral failure at the lead pastor level like this is in my the guy who used to be in that role had my it was just it was

[00:31:18] wild

[00:31:20] To just see the after effects. Now. I've never met his daughter

[00:31:27] In subsequent conversations, I've heard that the

[00:31:31] You know that the 20 plus years of ministry of my predecessor and

[00:31:35] um, you know kind of walking closely with the lord is

[00:31:39] The lord is working through that to restore her faith but to have someone say

[00:31:43] That moral failure

[00:31:45] Caused my own daughter. You just forget the carnage that comes from that type of spiritual failure. That's so sad

[00:31:52] you know, I um

[00:31:54] I love that idea tyler of the healthy fear of the lord

[00:32:00] I think there's something, you know, you're hitting something there and

[00:32:03] And I know I have a story in my own life as well that, you know, one day we came home and we found that our our little puppy

[00:32:12] Had got into our swimming pool and got trapped under our pool cover and drowned

[00:32:18] and

[00:32:19] my wife

[00:32:23] One she felt kind of responsible because she was the one home and and she just I find her she's wailing

[00:32:29] Just wailing just the tears over

[00:32:33] This and then my kids come home from school and each one of them are just heartbroken over the the news

[00:32:39] And at the time my youngest daughter, I think she was five just in kindergarten

[00:32:43] I find her out in the backyard and she's picking up

[00:32:46] His little dog toys out of the backyard

[00:32:49] And I walk up and i'm like, hey, you know, honey. How you doing? And she says this to me. She says

[00:32:54] I just don't understand

[00:32:57] How god could let this happen

[00:33:00] And right at that moment the lord just spoke to me so clearly and he said

[00:33:06] I want you to pay attention to how heartbroken your family is

[00:33:11] over a dog

[00:33:13] Just think if you screw up, he didn't say screw up

[00:33:15] But if you mess up, you know, and it just hit me

[00:33:19] It's been like so stuck in my head ever since that carnage that does come

[00:33:24] You know out of that failure and you know, it it did it has given me a healthy fear

[00:33:30] You know of the lord and to want to walk in integrity and I I think i'm wondering

[00:33:36] You know, I think part of this also starts this erosion starts in

[00:33:42] The heart of a pastor or leader in their own relationship with jesus

[00:33:48] Yeah, you know, it's interesting and it has to yeah many of the guys that I know who have fallen

[00:33:52] One of the things I've asked them is like how did this happen and every single one of them told me

[00:33:58] That they quit having a healthy devotional life every single one of them that that was one of the things that you know became

[00:34:06] Eliminated they just got busy, you know in the ministry. And so it was so easy

[00:34:11] You know to even think about well, I'm I'm in the word because I'm preparing for a message

[00:34:15] But they really weren't spending that time

[00:34:18] Alone with god and and I know

[00:34:21] You know in my own life the holy spirit is like an alarm, you know that when when I start getting towards an area of

[00:34:30] You know a temptation or a compromise. It's like that alarm is going off, you know in my heart and in my mind

[00:34:36] And it's so loud

[00:34:38] and

[00:34:40] But I think when you

[00:34:43] Start having a

[00:34:45] When your relationship with the lord personally starts to decline a little bit

[00:34:49] You know that alarm gets faint, you know that sensitivity the holy spirit gets faint

[00:34:54] And I I think that's a maybe even could be part of the starting point in a lot of situations

[00:35:02] Um, I mean, what do you guys think about that? Well as you're talking rob. I'm thinking about first peter 15

[00:35:07] 315 and 16 where peter says sanctify the lord god in your hearts

[00:35:12] And it's you know that that word sanctify

[00:35:16] You know it it means to make holy, right? And and it signifies a being set apart for god. It's the exact opposite

[00:35:24] of

[00:35:26] You know the greek coinos which would be that which is common

[00:35:30] You know we're to set apart our hearts. So this goes to what you were talking about tyler

[00:35:33] About uh integer, you know and no, you know having you know the whole not not having parts

[00:35:41] That aren't consistent with the whole

[00:35:43] And um and peter goes on he says always be ready to give a defense

[00:35:47] To everyone asks you for the reason that for the hope that is in you with meekness and with fear

[00:35:53] And then he says having a good conscience

[00:35:56] That when they defame you as evil doers those who rebuy your good conduct in christ

[00:36:01] May be ashamed

[00:36:02] And so yeah, it is that aspect of being set apart not giving

[00:36:07] You know as the bible says not giving a place for evil

[00:36:10] Not giving any area where you can give the devil a foothold

[00:36:14] And certainly to your point sean none of us is perfect. We do we have we have glaring failures that

[00:36:21] remind us

[00:36:22] Of of our fallen humanity

[00:36:25] But this is the aspiration and I think that

[00:36:28] Um to take that walk. I love your example about how the lord spoke to you

[00:36:34] And look how broken they are over a dog

[00:36:37] Um and I think it's a really healthy thing for us to contemplate

[00:36:42] The high holy calling that god's entrusted to us and just how badly we've watched others mess things up

[00:36:49] That could be us. Yeah. Yeah, ted there's

[00:36:53] When when my wife and I when I was in the seminary. This is our first year of marriage

[00:36:57] We moved down to uh southern california

[00:37:00] I was had two years to go at fuller and the first church we went to

[00:37:05] We were invited by the worship pastor of the church and it was an exploding church rock harbor in coast amesa

[00:37:12] Multiple thousand people. It was three years old and I was so excited to go there because we were buddies with the worship pastor

[00:37:18] His name is Todd

[00:37:19] And so we get down there. We go first service in packed amazing worship set

[00:37:25] Very young church

[00:37:27] The mean age was probably 27 28 years old, but it was three or 4 000 people

[00:37:32] Uh in orange county there

[00:37:34] Then after the worship ends the again first sunday in the church

[00:37:39] The lead elder gets up and opens up a letter and he reads a resignation letter

[00:37:45] From the founding pastor guy named Keith page

[00:37:48] um

[00:37:50] Because he had to resign because he admitted to having an affair

[00:37:54] With a gal who was in the worship team while his wife was six months pregnant with their third child

[00:38:01] And it was an it this guy reads the letter like you were just saying Ted and it was again the word was

[00:38:08] Carnage people were weeping wailing. This was my first hour in that church

[00:38:14] I was over. I didn't even know who this person was never met in my life

[00:38:18] I was

[00:38:19] Weeping

[00:38:21] Like my wife was that says are you okay? Do you think we need to go and I was like no, I was just I was so

[00:38:27] Sad for what I was seeing

[00:38:29] And we get through the service. We walked to the car and Bridget says

[00:38:33] so I guess

[00:38:35] I guess we're not coming back to this church and I was like actually

[00:38:39] I really want to come back to this church

[00:38:41] Like I feel like the lord brought us here to see

[00:38:45] I feel like part of the reason the lord brought me and us here is to see and feel the weight

[00:38:51] Of the fall of a senior pastor of a large church

[00:38:55] Like this is part of what he wants to and it was so sad and it filled me with so much fear

[00:39:02] I was like, I really want to come back and see how this leadership

[00:39:06] Wades through this most difficult thing that could really threaten the the moorings of the entire church

[00:39:12] I thought they navigated it with a plumb. I thought they did a fantastic job and I learned a lot from that too, but

[00:39:18] I just really felt like the lord was going like

[00:39:21] You got to see and experience

[00:39:23] What a lack of integrity does in the role of a lead pastor any pastor

[00:39:27] But especially a lead pastor because it's not you know, if you're a vp at wells fargo and you have an affair

[00:39:33] You know, you screw your family up your kids hate you your wife divorces you

[00:39:36] But you probably don't lose your job

[00:39:38] And you bounce back to another job and you still it's just like

[00:39:42] but when you're a

[00:39:44] When you're a ministry leader and that happens like

[00:39:48] It's devastation. Yeah, okay. You people are literally questioning their salvation

[00:39:53] Does wait does does my faith count? Is it real? It's just it's a completely different thing

[00:39:59] And so there's just more more at stake, you know

[00:40:02] yeah

[00:40:03] And probably a little bit of the thought of man, if that guy can't make it, how can I make it?

[00:40:09] You know people are thinking, you know, yes. It's like yes

[00:40:13] Why bother, you know a guy the pastor can't even make it

[00:40:16] Man any any thoughts on that shan? Well, I just think

[00:40:23] The yeah the devastation is obviously

[00:40:27] Incredibly real

[00:40:29] vast and and permanent

[00:40:32] Um

[00:40:33] So seeing it I think that can be

[00:40:36] That can obviously really help in terms of reflection. Um, as I was thinking about

[00:40:42] A couple of things that you guys said, um

[00:40:45] You know, yeah compartmentalization is really good in some ways

[00:40:50] Um as an aviator, it's necessary as a leader. It's necessary

[00:40:54] Um, but long term it's not

[00:40:57] leading a compartmentalized

[00:40:59] life, but even just compartmentalizing emotions

[00:41:04] um

[00:41:06] A couple things that we might

[00:41:08] I would love to just even hear from all three of you guys of like

[00:41:13] I think there's a few

[00:41:15] I said earlier satan is not very creative, but he's very effective and it's it's really power sex and money

[00:41:21] Um are the are the big things especially for men, but the gateway to those

[00:41:28] um

[00:41:29] I don't think anybody

[00:41:32] embezzles. I don't think anybody

[00:41:34] Um

[00:41:35] Accidentally sleeps with a woman just randomly one day. No, I think

[00:41:42] They coveted things in their their heart at a minimum

[00:41:47] I think they experimented with

[00:41:50] Kind words and does this person respond?

[00:41:53] You know, I think they call that grooming and stuff like that. So I think when we think about those types of things

[00:41:59] I'd be curious what you guys think about these four things which would be small compromises

[00:42:04] We kind of hit on this a little bit prayer life

[00:42:07] isolation and alcohol

[00:42:09] I think those are like the gateways

[00:42:13] Well, that's going to be where we are are going to pause this conversation today and we're sorry to leave you

[00:42:19] Hanging but tune in next week as we come back

[00:42:23] To the question from Sean Morgan on the gateways

[00:42:27] That lead to compromise and the breakdown of integrity in your life and in your ministry

[00:42:34] Now if you are encouraged or challenged by today's show, we would love to hear from you

[00:42:39] You can email us at leadership collective podcast.com

[00:42:45] And we would love to hear from you with any questions comments or suggestions on topics or guests for the show

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[00:43:00] Well until next time may you experience the fullness of jesus in your life and in your ministry