Rob Salvato and Ted Leavenworth continue their conversation with Sean Morgan (Leaders in Living Rooms) and Tyler Scott (Community Presbyterian Church), talking through maintaining integrity and avoiding compromising pitfalls as a leader in ministry. We hope that this conversation will provide wisdom, insight, and encouragement as you serve faithfully.
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Leaders in Living Rooms: https://theascentleader.org/leaders-in-living-rooms/
Community Presbyterian Church: https://www.cpcdanville.org
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[00:00:12] Especially in America we live in a system that it just
[00:00:15] Sort of always this this idea of the relentless pursuit of more more more more more
[00:00:21] Bigger title bigger paycheck bigger roles bigger responsibility bigger company more more more more that if that is what people
[00:00:30] Success and doing well and they're they're doing fantastic. Just got a promotion at work
[00:00:35] That could be the worst thing for that person
[00:00:38] It really could be
[00:00:41] Well, welcome to part two of our conversation with Sean Morgan and Tyler Scott on having integrity in your leadership and ministry
[00:00:50] You know we ended part one where Sean Morgan posed a question about four
[00:00:55] potential gateways
[00:00:57] To compromise in your life and that's where we're gonna pick up the conversation today
[00:01:02] So now here is part two of the Leadership Collective podcast on having integrity in your life and leadership
[00:01:10] With Sean Morgan and Tyler Scott
[00:01:12] Ted Leavenworth and myself Rob Sabato
[00:01:17] A couple things that we might I would love to just even hear from all three of you guys of like I
[00:01:24] Think there's a few I
[00:01:26] Said earlier Satan's not very creative, but he's very effective and it's it's really power sex and money
[00:01:33] Are the are the big things especially for men, but the gateway to those
[00:01:39] I
[00:01:41] Don't think anybody
[00:01:43] Embezzles I don't think anybody
[00:01:47] Accidentally sleeps with a woman just randomly one day. No, I think they
[00:01:55] Coveted things in their their heart at a minimum. I think they experimented with
[00:02:01] Kind words and does this person respond? You know, I think they call that grooming and stuff like that
[00:02:07] So I think when we think about those types of things
[00:02:10] I'd be curious what you guys think about these four things which would be small compromises
[00:02:15] We kind of hit on this a little bit prayer life
[00:02:18] Isolation and alcohol I think those are like the gateways
[00:02:24] That's so good. This small compromises one is
[00:02:29] Absolutely how it happens, but when I think about this or when I've
[00:02:35] Spoken about it. It's like the picture that I get is a big stairway
[00:02:40] like a 20-stair stairway and
[00:02:43] Very few people
[00:02:45] Sprint and jump off the top of a 20-stair stairway and land at the bottom because you'll break yourself up
[00:02:51] but
[00:02:52] Oftentimes and if an affair or
[00:02:56] Something that you know it blows your life in your ministry up is that last step very few like you were saying Sean
[00:03:02] People don't jump from the top step down to the ground, but that that small compromise
[00:03:07] It's like okay
[00:03:09] You're you're drinking more or you take a bunch of trips by yourself
[00:03:13] Or you start watching porn and get addicted and or you know
[00:03:19] It's you cutting corners here and there and then you're out you're isolating and you're not in
[00:03:25] Living in true
[00:03:27] Community where you open yourself up with vulnerability and transparency and accountability is like all those are steps
[00:03:33] Or by the time you get to that
[00:03:35] 19th step it actually isn't a
[00:03:39] Herculean leap anymore, right? It's just an eight inch step. Yeah off the last step
[00:03:45] Like it's not a leap to have an affair when you kind of go all anyway
[00:03:51] It's it's scary to think about that but that's again back to the fear of it. It's I think sin should evoke some fear
[00:04:01] tempted to
[00:04:02] To comment on all four of these gateways that you that you mentioned Sean I
[00:04:08] In the area of prayer
[00:04:10] Because one of the things that I'd taken note on we when we contemplate, you know
[00:04:14] gosh, how do what's the progression?
[00:04:17] as you talk about Tyler this this breakdown integrity of integrity and
[00:04:22] Certainly personal regular devotion with reflective prayer
[00:04:27] Is an aspect of it. I'm David said search me. Oh god. Know my heart try me know my anxieties
[00:04:35] See if there's any wicked way in me and lead me in in the way of everlasting
[00:04:40] I was contemplating that and and
[00:04:42] I
[00:04:43] Richard Cecil had this quote it's in the EM bounds book power through prayer
[00:04:48] But Richard Cecil was a evangelical Anglican priest the early 1800s
[00:04:53] And he said the ministry is a grand and holy affair
[00:04:57] And it should find us in a simple habit of
[00:05:00] Spirit and a holy but humble indifference to all consequences
[00:05:05] The leading deficit in Christian ministers is want of a devotional habit
[00:05:11] Yeah, and that's you know, that stood out to me. There's just this this desperate need to
[00:05:19] To be in the scriptures in prayer together
[00:05:26] Asking the Lord to search our hearts such an important part of it and then along with that you're mentioned of alcohol
[00:05:33] And I'll turn this over to you Rob, but I
[00:05:39] I
[00:05:40] You know Paul's exhortation and Ephesians do not be drunk with wine which is dissipation but be filled with the spirit and
[00:05:48] Certainly the Bible's
[00:05:49] Exhaord against drunkenness
[00:05:51] But what's in view there is the just as I mean, how do you get drunk? You drink wine?
[00:05:55] How do you stay drunk? You keep drinking wine and his exhortation is you need to be being filled with the Holy Spirit, right?
[00:06:04] And this desperate need but it dumb-found me
[00:06:08] When as a pastor, I mean I'm my ministry experience is 30 32 years as a pastor and I can tell you
[00:06:19] easily
[00:06:21] 9 out of 10 episodes of infidelity have been tied with alcohol involved
[00:06:26] Easily and that's not an exaggeration. Maybe 10 out of 10. I don't know
[00:06:31] I'll cause almost always involved and I why would we want?
[00:06:35] I mean, it's it's hard enough to resist the enemy and to his full court press
[00:06:41] Why would I want to be altered and have the spirits influencing me dissipated?
[00:06:47] Why would I even want a monkey around with that? It just it just dumb-founds me. It's interesting
[00:06:53] I
[00:06:55] Love those insights, you know when you talked about the
[00:06:58] Small compromises Sean one of the things that came to my mind right away was the word entitlement and
[00:07:05] I think a lot of times that's where the small compromises begin is somebody
[00:07:12] You know having a sense and even they would never verbalize this
[00:07:16] But they think it like, you know, I deserve this or this isn't that big of a deal and you know that sense of an entitlement
[00:07:24] You know my wife and I we've been married now 37 years and we have a great marriage
[00:07:31] But it's hard and there have been many many seasons, you know along those 37 years where
[00:07:39] You know, we haven't felt, you know connected or
[00:07:44] You know, she's felt neglected. I haven't felt appreciated and and I think it's easy when people find themselves in that type of
[00:07:51] You know
[00:07:52] Situation to think like, you know, I deserve this, you know
[00:07:56] Someone's showing you attention that isn't your spouse and to think, you know, I deserve this
[00:08:01] That's the sense of you're thinking it, you know, and I think the the devil's really really good, you know, like you said Sean
[00:08:09] You know he loves to attack truth and he loves to get us to you know doubt truth
[00:08:16] I think people, you know, they start doing that and those I think a lot of times those small compromises begin
[00:08:23] With us that that heart sense of entitlement like I deserve this especially when somebody I think is
[00:08:32] You know risen in to use the word power or a position that they just start thinking, you know
[00:08:40] That maybe they're a little bit above, you know, everybody else. So you think there's some truth to that. Oh
[00:08:47] Yeah, I mean, you know anytime you start believing your own your own press. Yeah
[00:08:52] That's one of the warning signs, right?
[00:08:55] Yeah, I think it's hard. I mean I there's a million one
[00:08:58] Topics you could go down with this but you know the idea of like a green room or whatever
[00:09:02] I'm actually if I were I don't preach regularly, but if I did I would have a green room
[00:09:08] because sometimes I
[00:09:10] the
[00:09:12] social interaction
[00:09:15] Is can be draining yes
[00:09:18] but I would have a lot of
[00:09:21] Guard rails on how the green room was used
[00:09:24] because
[00:09:26] It shouldn't be a place to avoid the very people
[00:09:31] You're bringing God's word to and so I think you know, that's that that can be an example of
[00:09:36] You know with your own press is like well. I'm here to deliver the message and God's working through me
[00:09:43] Tyler and I's good friend Kenton B. Shore
[00:09:48] Who was mentored personally by John Stott said that John Stott
[00:09:52] Quote something along the lines of the corrosive nature of the pulpit
[00:09:56] That there's almost nothing more corrosive to a heart
[00:10:00] Then being on the pulpit and what that can do to sort of believing
[00:10:06] your own press clippings which ultimately goes back to
[00:10:10] What Tyler said and C. S. Lewis said about pride
[00:10:14] Yeah, really is when you think about it
[00:10:17] the that
[00:10:20] You know, we take good things and we turn them into God things and
[00:10:26] And that that goes for the pulpit
[00:10:28] That goes for our position
[00:10:31] It goes for our ambition and we can have ambition in ministry
[00:10:38] That that is
[00:10:40] You know that that's good
[00:10:41] I mean the Bible talks about spurring one another on towards love and good deeds
[00:10:45] And I think that as as pastors, you know when you and I Rob we talk all the time about what God's doing in your church
[00:10:51] What he's laid on your heart
[00:10:53] you know when
[00:10:55] The idea about cohorts, you know it was that was spurring me on towards love and good deeds
[00:11:00] I'm like man. I love what he's doing. I love what's coming out of that. I want to I want to implement that
[00:11:04] I want to do that and and I think those things are good things where we're spurring one another on towards loving good deeds
[00:11:10] but we those can become
[00:11:13] Idolatrous things in our hearts too where we begin, you know to have envy
[00:11:17] Or we begin to covet something that you know is going on in somebody else's ministry
[00:11:23] And we really need to take these thoughts, you know captive to the to the obedience of Christ and
[00:11:30] And that's you know
[00:11:33] I think of Paul on Mars Hill
[00:11:35] As he's you know telling these guys since we're the offspring of God
[00:11:39] We shouldn't think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or something shaped by art something shaped by man's devising
[00:11:47] And we can make the ministry an idol and it can start to have our fingerprints on it and be something that we're shaping
[00:11:54] And these are these are all those those
[00:11:57] Things that can erode to the integrity of our ministry if we're not careful about you know, what what is my motive here?
[00:12:05] What is what what is it that I'm that I'm responding to here am I coveting some other man's success?
[00:12:12] Am I coveting some other man's?
[00:12:14] You know idea and this really isn't something that I'm being spurred on to in a godly way
[00:12:20] But it's something that I'm doing out of envy
[00:12:23] Or out of out of pride. It's it's you know
[00:12:27] I can ascend to the hill of the most high I can be like God
[00:12:29] I'm gonna do these things and these require a lot of introspection and they require
[00:12:35] Going back to what we were talking about earlier those people in your life
[00:12:39] Who actually can say the hard things and ask you the hard questions and not having?
[00:12:45] You know any holds barred where somebody can say hey, man
[00:12:49] I saw this in you and and I I just want to challenge you you know about
[00:12:55] About what I see possibly is is this going on?
[00:13:00] You know one thing I think it's really interesting in what we're talking about too
[00:13:03] And I'd love to get your guys thoughts on this is that you know sometimes I I see this in in guys in ministry is that
[00:13:10] there's a striving to
[00:13:14] You know
[00:13:15] Attain something in ministry that they're not attaining or to be
[00:13:21] Something that they're not you know they they they desperately want to you know get on the platform
[00:13:28] at a conference or you know that sort of thing and and
[00:13:32] You know there's that this striving that you can see and and sometimes I feel like sometimes
[00:13:39] I think this is you know part of an integrity issue is
[00:13:44] Is not
[00:13:46] understanding
[00:13:48] The capacity that God has given you at a particular time and what I mean by that is is like
[00:13:55] You know God saying hey, this is what I'm giving you
[00:13:59] To handle and this is how I've wired you and made you know one of the guys in my in my cohort
[00:14:04] That we just recently had you know he said to our group
[00:14:09] He said you know I think that the way God has wired me
[00:14:13] I'm never gonna I'll never pastor a church
[00:14:17] Larger than 200 people you know that that he is I feel like that is
[00:14:23] How God's wired me and that's my capacity and I thought man how freeing for him to
[00:14:29] You know be in that place and that realization and I wouldn't be surprised if God ends up
[00:14:35] You know blessing his ministry beyond that but for him to be in a place of just like I know this is kind of how
[00:14:42] I'm wired and and so because of that there there isn't there wasn't a
[00:14:48] Striving in his heart that oftentimes I see in a lot of pastors who you know
[00:14:53] They're always wanting to more you know and you know
[00:14:56] How do we break the 200 and how do we get to this level and how do we you know get to the
[00:15:01] To the next step and and I even saw a good friend of mine completely ruin his church
[00:15:08] That was you know a couple thousand people
[00:15:10] But he had been at that place for a really really long time
[00:15:13] And he wanted to figure out how to get to the next step and he ended up
[00:15:17] You know doing some things that in some ways I think where it was a mark of a lack of integrity
[00:15:26] In in trying to become something that they weren't and it ended up absolutely destroying
[00:15:31] You know that church
[00:15:33] Any thoughts on on that idea though of just capacity and kind of knowing ourselves and
[00:15:39] Being content with how God has made us instead of trying to be something that we're not
[00:15:48] My well Rob
[00:15:51] This is a little embarrassing to say but like I do know myself and unfortunately I
[00:15:58] Just feel like
[00:15:59] Everything every story that I've told whether it was about the guy at rock harbor the guy
[00:16:05] You know two pastors ago 30 plus years ago at my church
[00:16:10] I
[00:16:12] Honestly if I'm being totally honest
[00:16:15] Knowing myself the things that got them in trouble. I have in me. Yeah, right. Yeah like I
[00:16:24] Ambition three on the enneagram
[00:16:26] Like wanting to charge growth mindset like you name the
[00:16:33] The the malady of heart I have that I really do and it's like it's embarrassing to say that but like
[00:16:41] Yeah, it's but for the grace of God
[00:16:43] There go. Why so it's like there's I mean it brings me back to there's a woman at my
[00:16:49] Last church so my mentor ministry is a guy named Larry Vold at three crosses Church in Castro Valley
[00:16:54] That's where I came from
[00:16:56] the most humble
[00:16:58] Man leader
[00:17:00] Phenomenal teacher, but like incredible humble heart hit the human his humility of heart is what kept me out of the ministry for years
[00:17:08] I was like, I'm not like Larry. I don't have a heart like him. I just
[00:17:12] I'm not as humble. I'm way more pride for all those things and
[00:17:16] Then he's you know, he showed me that the Lord can can grow in humility and those types of things
[00:17:23] He's a great mentor
[00:17:25] But when he was lead pastor and I was like the number two guy there
[00:17:30] We got called into a meeting of a new new woman in our ministry. She was in her 30s
[00:17:35] She had just come from across the bay at an even larger mega church that had had a massive very public moral failure
[00:17:44] and
[00:17:45] She called us into a meeting in Larry's office and she sits us down
[00:17:49] She goes, I just have one question for you and I was like Larry and I are looking at each other going like
[00:17:53] What is it? She goes, I just
[00:17:55] came from a church that had the moral failure with you know a person's name that you guys would all recognize and
[00:18:02] I
[00:18:05] Cannot handle
[00:18:07] Like I cannot handle going through that again
[00:18:11] Like I literally can't handle it. So I've been going to this church for several months. I love this ministry
[00:18:18] I love being in both of your ministries. I
[00:18:21] Need to ask you directly to your face
[00:18:24] Is there anything in your life that would disqualify you from leading this church and
[00:18:32] Larry and I looked at each other and of course I was like I
[00:18:35] Will wait for him to answer
[00:18:41] And Larry like this is I love him he
[00:18:44] Swallowed already looked at her. He said I
[00:18:47] Want you to know
[00:18:49] That I have it in me to fall in the ways that that man across
[00:18:56] Shoulder Bay did
[00:18:58] But I can tell you
[00:19:00] With humility but also integrity
[00:19:03] That I do not believe there's anything in my life
[00:19:08] That would disqualify me from providing spiritual leadership to this church
[00:19:14] And she was like wow, thank you and then she turned to me and asked me the same question
[00:19:19] I was just like I said a very less but much less eloquent version of that. Yeah, yeah, but it was like that's I
[00:19:27] Don't know. I just remember thinking yeah, Larry actually said but for the grace of God
[00:19:32] There go why and I was like that's it right there like that's I
[00:19:36] All that stuff that people have that causes that it's like it's it's sick
[00:19:41] It makes me sick to my stomach. Honestly, that is not false humility. It's just like yeah
[00:19:45] I have that in me so I need to bring that to the Lord again and again and again
[00:19:48] No one like you said Ted. It's like
[00:19:52] Search my heart. Yes Lord like you know
[00:19:56] Lead me in the way everlasting like yeah do the inner work that you need to do
[00:20:03] To continue to renew my spirit
[00:20:07] To be fit for this role
[00:20:09] Anyway, I don't know does that does that how do you guys think about this like how do you guys think about this in terms of your own?
[00:20:15] Heart and life. I'm truly curious about that
[00:20:18] well
[00:20:19] it's that that godly fear and really the terror of what I'm capable of and
[00:20:24] That's what we need to
[00:20:26] We can't get too far from that
[00:20:29] That that that honest confession that God I need you, you know every
[00:20:36] day every moment I need you and
[00:20:40] And the great devastation that we have we are capable of doing
[00:20:45] And that needs to drive us
[00:20:48] to confession it needs to drive us to
[00:20:51] To be in an accountable relationship, which if we're honest I
[00:20:58] Like autonomy I do I like not having to play mother-may-eye with a bunch of people
[00:21:05] I like to be able to make my decisions and I'm given an incredible amount of latitude to do that every single day
[00:21:12] And and I need to I need to appreciate that but I also need to be very afraid of it. Yeah, you know
[00:21:20] I would say this to your question and I agree wholeheartedly
[00:21:23] You know Tyler I have all of that in in me as well and one of the things that
[00:21:29] That I would say you know I've described it this way is I don't trust my flesh
[00:21:34] at all
[00:21:36] And so one of the things I think is really important and I'd love to to segue to this
[00:21:43] But I do want to hear from Sean on this as well and that and I you were kind of nodding your head when I talked about capacity
[00:21:49] So I think you had a thought on that but but I was gonna say this that you know, I I
[00:21:56] realized this about me that
[00:22:00] The times when I am the most vulnerable are when I'm tired
[00:22:06] and
[00:22:08] Man, you know
[00:22:10] Mystery's tiring
[00:22:13] You know because of the things that you just said, you know, we can start the day
[00:22:16] dealing with somebody that just lost a child and then you know by the end of the day were you know
[00:22:24] Rejoicing with somebody who's celebrating their anniversary and you're you know these extreme
[00:22:30] Emotional things throughout the day and it's just it's draining and and I'm personally I'm not one I don't get fueled by people
[00:22:38] Some people get fueled being around people I get drained
[00:22:42] so I need my little times of escape and
[00:22:47] You know when you talk about the green room like I'll I go out. I talk with people
[00:22:52] In between our two services, I go out to our courtyard and I'll talk but I there has to be a point for me between
[00:22:59] When the next service is gonna start where I get about 10 or 15 minutes
[00:23:03] And I just have to go sit in my office chair and kind of decompress
[00:23:07] You know a little bit and and I realize that about myself
[00:23:12] But you know when I'm tired is when I'm vulnerable and also when I'm discouraged
[00:23:17] And a lot of times in ministry there's a lot of discouragement that comes you know our way and
[00:23:24] And so you know, I think we have to have clear-cut guardrails
[00:23:29] You know in our lives, and I'd love to talk about that in a few minutes
[00:23:32] But Sean what were you thinking about when we were what Tyler said but also when we were talking about capacity and kind of knowing your
[00:23:40] capacity
[00:23:42] And what I meant by capacity maybe there was the idea of our knowing your limitations as as a pastor where you're not
[00:23:49] Trying to be something that you're not supposed to be or God hasn't really called you to be
[00:23:53] Yeah, I have a couple a couple thoughts on that first of all. I think
[00:23:57] Especially in America we live in a system that it just
[00:24:01] Sort of always this this idea of the relentless pursuit of more more more more more
[00:24:07] Bigger title bigger paycheck bigger roles bigger responsibility bigger company more more more more that if that is what people define as
[00:24:16] Success and doing well and they're they're doing fantastic. Just got a promotion at work
[00:24:20] That could be the worst thing for that person
[00:24:24] It really could be
[00:24:26] And so we attach more worth to the the boss than the middle manager than the employee then the frontline
[00:24:35] Mmm, and our self-worth should be completely disconnected from all those things and I actually think
[00:24:42] Other countries. I think America might be the worst like I was I was hiking in
[00:24:48] In the French Alps a few years ago
[00:24:51] And we came down this trail into this little village and there was a barn and a house and
[00:24:57] The family was setting out tables in their yard
[00:25:01] And it turned out they run a little restaurant and it serves they serve dinner and they have like six tables
[00:25:07] they put up in their backyard and
[00:25:10] They weren't looking to turn this thing into a franchise
[00:25:13] I mean there was literally not much more than a sign out on their driveway that would even indicate
[00:25:19] There was restaurant there. It was way up this mountain road at best. They're filling six tables an evening at best
[00:25:28] And they were just content like they loved what they did
[00:25:34] as sort of farmers ranchers and that they could
[00:25:37] Turn something like this into bless their community and some of the hikers on these through trails
[00:25:42] I mean that was there was contentment in that I was like, you don't see that a whole lot in
[00:25:47] Certainly not in the circles. I run in and so I do think we have to realize like there is a system
[00:25:54] That the Prince of this world has distorted and there's a lie behind that Tim Keller's book on
[00:26:02] work
[00:26:04] Every good endeavor really helps kind of pinpoint the value of doing
[00:26:10] What you're capable of doing very very well and not worrying about, you know
[00:26:16] That person makes more or less or got the promotion
[00:26:19] I didn't know whatever in just the internal value that they have
[00:26:22] I think that is a system that's very much distorted even in church world for us and we have to acknowledge
[00:26:28] The other thing is is for me. I use this phrase a lot because I think ultimately we're talking about maybe
[00:26:35] Self-worth and and that's close to pride is
[00:26:38] Being sure of yourself, but not full of yourself
[00:26:41] You can be very sure of yourself like I'm called to do this and
[00:26:46] Because I see it clearly and I believe I'm called to do it
[00:26:49] God will provide through my obedience the right people the right equipping the right things and
[00:26:54] Lord willing use me to do that. That is very different than
[00:26:58] This is about me. I deserve this
[00:27:00] I'm entitled and I think a lot of those from the outside looking in can look the same. Yeah, I think we have
[00:27:09] Again, especially in America, you know big confident big L leader big L ego
[00:27:17] Attraction, you know, we make heroes out of these people in a in a in a bad way and not so good way
[00:27:23] So I think all of those things are things that again. I don't think there's a system of figure this out
[00:27:29] Check the box move on I think these are
[00:27:32] Daily weekly monthly sometimes hourly moment by moment battles we have to
[00:27:38] We have to wage and kind of can go through cycles, but those that's that's sort of how I look at that capacity thing is
[00:27:46] I
[00:27:47] Actually don't believe I'm that good at that much like
[00:27:51] But I do believe God's equipped me to do something and if I see something clearly
[00:27:57] And I'm prayerful and discerning and I have some of these other wise biblical counsel in my life
[00:28:04] Then it gives me more confidence to so to say well, maybe I can do that if God's working through me
[00:28:11] That's good. So Tyler going back to you knowing your heart knowing you're saying hey these things are in me
[00:28:18] What kind of guardrails?
[00:28:20] Do you put up or do you even like that idea that that terminology? I just don't believe in them. I'm just kidding
[00:28:33] A lot to be honest. It's like and I would rather err on the side of too many. Yeah, so I
[00:28:42] Mean it you mentioned autonomy that as a lead pastor there is a certain degree of autonomy
[00:28:48] But part of discerning or call to the church
[00:28:51] I'm in which is in a Presbyterian denomination
[00:28:54] And not going to another church where there was an opportunity that was
[00:28:59] It just had a lot more freedom and quite frankly a lot more
[00:29:05] Autonomy or power at the at the top and I could tell that that was gonna be part of it is part of the ways that the Lord
[00:29:13] Clarified that for me was that in any area of life, not just in ministry leadership
[00:29:19] Too much accountability is always better than too little and so part of like
[00:29:26] Part of my story or my my testimony so to speak has always been being surrounded by a very close group of
[00:29:33] strong Christian brothers who
[00:29:36] Who know me and I know them and we ask and answer a series of questions
[00:29:42] And so at different phases of my life there's been like, you know more regular more frequent meetings
[00:29:49] But there is there eyes if I've never
[00:29:52] Lived without that and I never will so I have a close group of
[00:29:57] Friends and my church is actually two it's almost like concentric circles
[00:30:00] But like why not have too many as opposed to too few
[00:30:06] Other things I I think devotional life is one of them like I've got a chair
[00:30:12] My wife and I have a morning ritual
[00:30:14] It's a quiet time with the Lord both of us in our same spots, you know her and her spot on the couch mine and my
[00:30:23] chair next to the
[00:30:25] fireplace with coffee the normally I make coffee for us and we sit there and that's that's how we start almost every
[00:30:32] single day
[00:30:33] And again, we all know in ministry
[00:30:36] There is a difference between studying for a message that you might have you know
[00:30:41] 20 30 hours a week where it's like you're studying to bring a message for other people and a true
[00:30:46] Devotional life where it's like you're abiding in Jesus, you know John 15 5 so that you could bear much fruit
[00:30:53] But apart from him you can do nothing
[00:30:56] So that those are just those are a couple the I
[00:31:01] Mean in our you want to get really practical at our church like all the all the offices have
[00:31:07] It's mostly glass
[00:31:10] The doors it's not like little windows like this again
[00:31:13] But that's part of the literally the history of our church in the early 1990s. So like my office is
[00:31:19] 90% glass and my door right and I don't counsel women ever we've got a counseling center
[00:31:25] We've got a couple female pastors. It's like
[00:31:28] Yeah, I just I just don't need that in my life. I don't mean in a bad way obviously care about but it's just like
[00:31:36] Why what's the upside of that? Yeah?
[00:31:39] Those are a few I'm sure I'm I'm told as a great question Robin. I can't wait to hear your answers to these two
[00:31:47] Well, I have several of the same ones that you just mentioned but another one that that I do
[00:31:54] And it's it's funny. I'll kind of said this up this way, but for several years
[00:32:00] Hopefully she won't get mad at me for saying this
[00:32:02] But for several years whenever we would hear of a pastor that had a moral failure
[00:32:10] in our movements and
[00:32:13] Unfortunately, there's been there's been too many
[00:32:17] My wife would punish me
[00:32:20] She would get mad at me
[00:32:23] You know when that happened and I remember talking to one of my friends and and we had just heard about a guy
[00:32:29] And he goes he goes I only want to tell my wife
[00:32:33] You too, you know, I guess yeah, my wife gets so mad at me and just I like I didn't do anything
[00:32:39] You know, but one of the things because of that
[00:32:43] when I travel
[00:32:47] Especially if I'm gonna travel somewhere where I'm staying in a hotel. I never traveled by myself
[00:32:52] If my wife can't go with me
[00:32:53] I always bring somebody on our church's dime, you know, just so there's that
[00:33:00] You know always that accountability and and you know, I said I love my wife
[00:33:05] I have no desire to stray in my in my marriage
[00:33:10] But at the same time, you know, it's one very comforting to her
[00:33:15] And two I don't trust my flesh, you know, so I just don't want to give my flesh
[00:33:22] Any opportunity and so those are some of the guardrails that I put up in in that type of way
[00:33:28] It's like I just don't want to give an opportunity
[00:33:31] for
[00:33:32] You know me to go down a road one day because I was in a vulnerable place
[00:33:36] So I would rather err on the side of caution, you know
[00:33:41] And some people like oh, that's so weak and I'm like no, I feel like it's smart
[00:33:44] I think it's wisdom, you know, and it's being real with you know myself
[00:33:49] And so there's another example of you know a guardrail that I'll that I put up
[00:33:54] Yeah, and I think in terms of I mean, I like I'll butcher what you said Tyler
[00:33:58] But too much accountability is better than no accountability
[00:34:02] I
[00:34:03] Think of silly I had a silly example come to my mind when you were talking about that my wife
[00:34:08] Is a quality time gal?
[00:34:10] She she wants quality time. That's love to her and I'm not that's I'm not wired that way and
[00:34:18] And I wake up my my feet I can totally tell that about you
[00:34:25] My feet are on the ground. I'm ready
[00:34:27] You know it's time to get going and be and knowing that about her forces me in the morning
[00:34:33] I'll make her a cup of tea and
[00:34:35] And I will wheel a chair my office chair
[00:34:39] Into our bedroom, and I will sit and have a cup of coffee
[00:34:42] Well, you with or was she has cup of tea and and we'll talk and it's not that I don't appreciate her company or anything like that
[00:34:49] But I'm held accountable to do that
[00:34:52] Because I know that about my wife and it's a silly example, but there are so many different ways where
[00:35:00] Circumstantially we are held accountable and we we
[00:35:05] Mentally would do well to view those opportunities as
[00:35:11] opportunities
[00:35:13] That are going to be better for us my marriage is always better when I take time
[00:35:19] With my wife in the morning and have a conversation and delay
[00:35:23] Getting to work with the other things
[00:35:26] My ministry is always better when I allow the board to ask me tough questions about, you know finances or I allow
[00:35:36] Somebody within my staff to question me on something
[00:35:40] And we and it's just a mental thing to view those things as this is actually going to be better
[00:35:47] for me for the ministry
[00:35:49] and maybe even
[00:35:52] As a homework assignment walking away from from this dialogue
[00:35:56] Taking even a deeper look at my ministry and saying where are some other areas where I actually should be inviting more accountability
[00:36:03] into my life
[00:36:05] love that
[00:36:07] Really really good well guys we have
[00:36:11] Taken up a lot of your time and really have enjoyed this conversation
[00:36:16] I feel like we we could have another
[00:36:19] 20-30 minutes, but I think it'd be a good place to wrap it up
[00:36:23] But I want to wrap up with this
[00:36:26] Given each of you just opportunity to just give kind of one closing thought on this
[00:36:31] Subject and why don't we start with you Sean?
[00:36:36] Yeah, well I I think the main closing thought I would have would just be
[00:36:42] Ultimately no system is is gonna solve the problem
[00:36:46] And you see that a lot the pendulum swings from side to side
[00:36:50] Oh this happened in this church and this organization and so now everything looks like this and then we're putting our
[00:36:56] our trust that
[00:36:57] It's it's bulletproof
[00:36:59] And I've never seen a system for
[00:37:04] For these sorts of things whether it's money or sex or impropriety or pride that works
[00:37:12] So I think some of it is just
[00:37:15] the Lord's grace like the tenderness of our hearts to say like
[00:37:19] Daily again weekly
[00:37:21] hourly sometimes
[00:37:23] realizing
[00:37:25] How broken we are and just being
[00:37:29] committed
[00:37:30] To waging war against what becomes clear
[00:37:35] You know we even I think we were alluded to carry new hoffs podcast about this and he talked about
[00:37:42] structural integrity a building that has structural integrity withstands the earthquakes the wind and all those things
[00:37:49] But before that a
[00:37:52] Building has a design and a plan
[00:37:54] And if you don't have a design and you don't have a plan that you're committed to it's a
[00:38:00] It has to be daily it can't be what we put these things in place and now we're just so good
[00:38:05] You know free will and coast so those would be my thoughts. Yeah, that's that's excellent. What about you Tyler closing thoughts?
[00:38:12] My closing thought comes back to the heart. I mean
[00:38:20] Proverbs 423 above all else guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life
[00:38:25] Like or everything you do flows from it and I just I love the word there for guard. It's
[00:38:31] It's not just a defensive word. It's probably more so manage
[00:38:36] So there are things that we need to put into our heart in order to guard and protect and manage it
[00:38:42] Well so that it can you know the things that we want from our lives can flow from it
[00:38:47] And there are some things
[00:38:49] That we do need to keep out of our heart in order for it to be a wellspring of life and
[00:38:56] So yeah, I think it just I think it comes down to the heart and we started I started by talking about
[00:39:01] Integrity coming from the the root word
[00:39:04] Integer which means whole and so I would just go back to that
[00:39:08] idea and so I
[00:39:10] think more of an of a key to living with integrity
[00:39:14] Using that same root word is living an integrated life and having a heart that's integrated as opposed to compartmentalized
[00:39:24] So that in that includes the relationships in your home, you know with your wife or your spouse your friends
[00:39:33] confidants
[00:39:36] You know being appropriately
[00:39:39] Open and vulnerable with your church and people in your church
[00:39:46] Yeah, those are the things but starting with the heart and leaving it leading an integrated life I think would be the keys
[00:39:53] That's great. Love that Ted
[00:39:56] well, you know, I I
[00:39:59] Pretty much said it. I think that
[00:40:02] we need to embrace accountability and and
[00:40:05] Lean into that to me accountability is
[00:40:09] something that
[00:40:11] We all have the opportunity to have more of and if you're wired like me
[00:40:17] It slows you down and
[00:40:20] That's that and that's a good thing actually
[00:40:25] so
[00:40:26] So take take time to
[00:40:30] To slow down and really the
[00:40:33] Contemplation has come out in our conversation of what we are capable of should scare us to death
[00:40:40] That's good. I love that
[00:40:43] And I think also, you know, and I think you alluded to this Tyler is is
[00:40:48] Inviting that account accountability inviting that vulnerability in allowing, you know
[00:40:54] giving people the opportunity to speak into our lives and
[00:40:58] Ask those tough questions of us
[00:41:01] The sad thing though is, you know, you can be dishonest
[00:41:05] In those, you know moments and that's what you know
[00:41:09] I think you're alluding to there there can't be a system and it does go back to, you know, the heart but
[00:41:16] Boy if you can get close enough to a group of people who can really know and like they can tell like
[00:41:22] Yeah, I don't think you're being straight up with us right now Tyler, you know
[00:41:25] What's going on here and and
[00:41:29] But but that takes time, you know, that does take time and
[00:41:33] And that sometimes is difficult but you know inviting that welcoming that but
[00:41:39] Again, I think it starts with just our own personal
[00:41:43] Heart and relationship with the Lord and just you know being real with him and like, you know, Ted mentioned the Lord
[00:41:50] Search me and just you know, I think one of things I think about in this
[00:41:55] And you know, I'll kind of end with this is, you know, what does the Bible say that God's looking for in all of us as
[00:42:02] Stewards, you know, we are stewards of a ministry. He just wants us to be faithful and
[00:42:07] You know, that's something that I think is really really great for us to lean into is I just want to be faithful
[00:42:13] God with what you've put in my hands and you know, what you've given me to steward
[00:42:18] And what happens with it and if how it grows and you know
[00:42:22] If it grows and if this happens and that happens
[00:42:26] That's up to you, you know, and I think as a younger pastor there was a day where I
[00:42:33] You know sought platform and I sought different things like this and I had all of these, you know visions and aspirations and
[00:42:42] And and but there came a point for me where it was just a willingness
[00:42:48] And to me this is kind of the balance between vision and contentment because you know as a leader
[00:42:53] I do have a lot of vision, but at the same time
[00:42:56] I'm very content with where God has me and you know and just always wanting to be open to
[00:43:03] You know what he might want to do, but at the same time just being content and rejoicing in what he is doing and
[00:43:11] You know, that's something I think that really helps keep me grounded in that area. So
[00:43:17] Guys thanks so much for being on the program today
[00:43:20] incredible content
[00:43:22] really really good stuff from both of you and
[00:43:25] Really appreciate your guys time and great spending time with you guys today
[00:43:30] Truly my pleasure super encouraging to be with you. Yeah, thank you so much
[00:43:36] Well that concludes part two of our show on having integrity in your leadership and ministry with Tyler Scott and Sean Morgan
[00:43:43] Stay tuned for next month. We will be discussing the topic of succession
[00:43:48] And transition and knowing when is the right time to start planning for that?
[00:43:53] Our guests will be Pastor Mark Foreman from North Coast Cowbridge, Apple
[00:43:57] Who just stepped down a little over a year ago as the lead pastor there?
[00:44:01] And then our second guest will be Pastor Dave Rolf the senior pastor at Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills in
[00:44:08] Aliso Viejo, California
[00:44:10] Dave just did or did his
[00:44:13] doctrinal thesis at Cowbert School of Theology on the subject of pastoral succession and
[00:44:20] Transition planning for pastors of Calvary Chapel churches
[00:44:23] And you know there are hundreds of pastors in our Calvary Chapel movement who will be transitioning in the next 10 years
[00:44:30] Or so and there are tens of thousands of pastors who are thinking about that in churches all over America today
[00:44:38] So this is going to be an insightful and practical show
[00:44:41] I just can't wait for it if you were encouraged or challenged by today's show
[00:44:46] We would love to hear from you you can email us at
[00:44:50] Leadership collective podcast comm and we would love to hear from you on with any questions that you have or any
[00:44:56] Comments or suggestions on topics or guests that you think would be great for the show
[00:45:01] And if this podcast has been a blessing to you
[00:45:03] Would you please like and subscribe and share this podcast with a friend?
[00:45:09] Well until next time may you experience the fullness of Jesus in your life and in your ministry
