Sermon Introductions and Illustrations, Lessons learned from Haddon Robinson and Preaching the Old Testament

[00:00:00] Because frankly, some Sermon's over explained things. I don't have to talk about the, I don't have a lot of research on the Hebrew word for walk. Abraham walked to check them. Well, what does it mean

[00:00:16] in the Hebrew? Well, same thing, it means in the English. He's, I don't know how else to say. He's walking. He's using his legs to move from one place to another. But there are certain places where

[00:00:29] I'm going to have to say, okay, this, this is going to be unfamiliar. People are going to say, I'm not sure I buy this. Okay, that's why I stop and explain something. Hi, welcome to the Expositors

[00:00:41] Collective podcast episode 338. I'm your host, Mike Neglia. The voice that you heard is Dr. Steve Matthewsson. He has been in pastoral ministry for 38 plus years in Montana and Illinois, but I can be across him because he is the director of the Doctor of Ministry Program, Western Seminary.

[00:01:07] One of his students actually got in touch with me and insisted that I interview him for this show. And I am glad that that happened. Thanks to Mike Chadwick for making the introduction. And in this conversation, we speak about sermon illustrations, sermon introductions and

[00:01:30] have a lovely wonderful heart stirring conversation about things that you learned while being a student of the late Doctor had in Robinson. And what he learned from hadn't about preaching and teaching, but also from his character and his demeanor. The goal of the conversation was to

[00:01:52] speak to him about his forthcoming book about preaching Old Testament or Old Testament poetry, specifically. But we got caught up in so many other things that we're going to have to circle back

[00:02:05] and have a follow up conversation. This is great for anyone who teaches and preaches God's word and wants to improve in communicating it well. Well, we are coming up on our in-person training events, our first ever that's taking place in Campalla, Uganda. And this is an event that

[00:02:30] we are putting on in collaboration with our friends at Cabri Chapel Campalla. This is an event that is free for anyone who attends, but the hearts of pastors that he is he wants those preachers and

[00:02:46] ministry leaders that live in the rural parts of Uganda to be able to come travel into Campalla have a place to stay and be fed free of charge. And so what I'm doing is I'm asking you the

[00:03:05] listeners to the expositors collect a podcast to sponsor an expositor. There are about 100 rural pastors that Zeddy would like to see come in for this training event we're doing later on in September. And I'm asking you to sponsor an expositor. It's about $110 US dollars that will enable

[00:03:29] somebody to travel in and then be hosted and fed during our three-day event, September 11th, 12th and 13th. So far we have 23 expositors who are sponsored and if you would like to

[00:03:45] add to that list. Well there's a link in the show notes that will bring you to a giving page where you could put it in a number and I'm the sponsor and expositor or to Orten. I am thankful

[00:03:59] for everybody who's given this far and we promise to stew her that money well and to equip upskill, encourage you, gondon, ministry leaders and teachers of God's Word. All right here is my conversation with Steve Matthewson. All right hey welcome the expositors collected podcast really excited

[00:04:26] to be speaking with Dr. Steve Matthewson. Good morning Steve how you doing? I'm doing a little mic I want you. Oh great you're the second podcast in a row so I'm just on a roll and I tried to

[00:04:40] batch these things and so my day has been spent in front of screens and a microphone and I'm glad to be here. Well great well yeah great well yeah so yeah so I'm not super good at small talk

[00:04:53] as you can see my little attempt in it there let's just jump straight into it Steve do you remember the first sermon that you ever preached or when you first like taught the Bible in public?

[00:05:04] Oh my wow this has been a long time ago so probably I guess two things come to mind I mean you ask about one but I mean the first thing I remember when I was in high school so I was probably

[00:05:20] what maybe 17 years old our church youth grew padda kind of a weekend retreat we know we went away to got a small retreat center just a you know very humble lodge and in the woods somewhere

[00:05:38] in central Illinois in the United States kind of where I growing it up and and I remember I had the opportunity to to I guess it was kind of preaching I I took it as a preaching opportunity

[00:05:55] and I do remember that I used Ezra 7 10 just one verse that's the one that said back then I probably did it out on New American Standard Bible for Ezra and said it's

[00:06:07] hard to study the law of the Lord to do it and or to practice it and to teach the statutes and ordinances in Israel so I talked about our responsibility to study practice

[00:06:22] and teach the word of God and so yeah that's that's about all I remember. Okay well I mean I'm curious we're all curious how did it how did it go? Well I guess it went okay that's the funny

[00:06:38] thing I don't really remember like some people you know just a few things but I I remember you know that was very fulfilling to you know to preach and to teach and then probably maybe three

[00:06:55] years or so later when I was I was going to start at a small Bible college and had to preach in chapel it was my assignment for the preaching course I took and I

[00:07:09] I think I remember that better just because you know there's so much build up to that it was like wow I'm preaching to you know adults and and I remember preaching Philippians one oh what was it like 17 through through 21 somewhere in that neighborhood but

[00:07:34] yeah I remember that sir but I remember I had a well structured and had illustrations and I remember two things about the reception you know overall as well received and people thank me for

[00:07:48] it and it was clear yeah because I used kind of the old three point you know outline and made my points very prominent but I I do remember one faculty member some of the faculty members gave

[00:08:05] feedback that were given forms in one a wrote that a particular illustration I used was kind of trait and pushing it out is you can hear 99 good things and one negative and I was kind of

[00:08:19] offended by that yeah just time went on I realized man he was absolutely right I used some illustration who knows where I heard it but I'm sure it probably came out of you know some illustration book

[00:08:34] I think it was about somebody you know young guy was on the train in New York City and he ran into a guy and you know accidentally knocked his stuff down and

[00:08:48] kicked it back up the guy was nice to him and so then the young man came back and said are you Jesus okay so no I would you ask that well you're your very kind it I think that was the just to

[00:08:59] the illustration and cash yeah what's so much it was well maybe it was a bad old trace but it's just kind of lame yeah I don't know box yes maybe it actually happened but if

[00:09:12] but it didn't happen to me and so it was very generic so of course I thought it was great but but it's funny I do remember that and actually I think that was good because it reminded me that

[00:09:26] wow this the preaching thing is is harder than I think and some people or probably not I didn't think about it this in such a sophisticated way at the time but I think later

[00:09:38] reflection I realized wow you know people hear things differently and some people might have thought oh that was a wonderful illustration and I know that because I hear some really trade illustration sometimes

[00:09:51] I think you got to be kidding me and then I'll hear somebody say oh wasn't that the most wonderful story and I don't say anything that I'm thinking no is terrible but yeah it reminded me of them so

[00:10:05] yeah those are my those are my memories of the first couple of sermons I ever pre-deached yeah well yeah thanks thanks very much to come back to those yeah the the variety of illustrations

[00:10:19] and of yeah questionable merit why do you think that is why do you think that's uh some story is just can strike you as tried while other people experience them as really profound

[00:10:34] wow that's a that's a great question maybe maybe because those of us who preach and teach regularly or who communicate regularly um you know we hear a lot of things and I I think we're able to spot

[00:10:48] things that that don't come out of you know maybe a preacher's experience or I think we can kind of tell we could just kind of sense when this is more of a you know heat and serve it's we we just

[00:11:04] got this out of an illustration book or or we heard some other preacher use it and it's been passed around and you know maybe even the details have changed with the time we've used it

[00:11:17] I do think some people who resonate with things like that because you know we all like a good story and I guess to some you know one illustration can be a good story but to somebody else

[00:11:30] it's tried maybe that's personality as well some people are more prone to to question things and to be a little bit more suspicious and skeptical or maybe it's just life experience you know

[00:11:44] they've been asked around kicked around and you know anything that's smack of you know this is just canned it's you know I use it's like the difference between a meal that's been prepared from scratch

[00:11:58] or or just something that you get out of a carton or out of a container and put it in the microwave I think people you know some people are more sensitive to that than others and it could be because

[00:12:11] they suffer and or because they live life enough or maybe it's because they preach and teach a lot and I think those of us who do or we're even more sensitive to that than then others might be

[00:12:25] yeah yeah perhaps yeah we've we've read the same book of illustrations and we know exactly page he found that one on yeah you know as soon as I say that I think about people in

[00:12:36] congregations that I've preached and and some I know would resonate with some of those stories that I think are tried but then there's others in the congregation that simply won't and

[00:12:48] yeah yeah well that's a whole other a whole other podcast episode just just just throwing that one out there yeah so those are some yeah some introductory that you're first in kind of a youth setting

[00:13:02] and then your first adult one and over the years I know that you've preached a lot of certain you've you've thought a lot about preaching and you've even written about preaching but like

[00:13:11] in those in the interim years what have been like the the organic or even intentional like changes that you've made to your prep process or your delivery process like what what's the work

[00:13:24] that you've put into growing or changing as a preacher over the years yeah and I've been I've been preaching you know as a pastoral ministry now for 38 years and so there's been yeah there's

[00:13:38] been a lot of changes a lot of refinements you know over the years probably more adjustments you know than anything I think you know one area recently I've I've thought a lot more about introductions and and even trying to make introductions a little bit shorter I studied with

[00:14:03] Hadron Robinson for three years and he was an enormous influence and and I know he always said that that a good introduction creates interest that raises a need for the sermon and in an oriental

[00:14:16] listeners to the tax so I've kind of used that as my grid but I think over the years I've is maybe too as I've listened to preaching I really some introductions that might even accomplish that get rather long in laborious and I think in

[00:14:37] recent years maybe the last decade or so I've thought a lot more about okay I want to keep my introductions as short as I can and and they don't have to be sophisticated in fact I I realize

[00:14:51] and had Robinson maybe he was a catalyst for this but he he said sometimes he would listen to his preach he said you know that was a great story you used in the introduction what did you say

[00:15:02] that for the conclusion you know because you started on this high note and you know it's only you know it's going to go downhill from there so I would do that but then even I think in recent

[00:15:16] years Tim Keller's been an influence maybe just the way people have talked about his preaching in his introductions his introductions are in elaborate but in two or three sentences he's able

[00:15:28] to raise some kind of a need and I guess what you want people to what I want people to say after the introductions done and we're now into the tax it might only be two or three sentences

[00:15:43] you know two minutes at the most but I would want people to say you know I want to listen to this sermon I need to listen to this sermon so I've got a lot of work to do yet on that but I

[00:15:57] I know that's been an area where I've been trying to with my introductions to be more economical and to make sure that I'm you know trying to you know create that need for people to

[00:16:12] listen to this and then you know orient them to the scripture that that deals with this with this big concern is big issue that they have in their lives of course I want to point people to

[00:16:24] Jesus I want people to you know to understand that the glory of the try and gods it's not just some crafts begin with a full need but I do think it's helpful to create that need why why should

[00:16:40] people listen to this message on ecclesiasties three or you know Matthew 11 28 to 30 or whatever happens to be and and I want to do that by trying to yeah trying to yeah create interest but I want

[00:17:00] to raise the need and then orient people to the text and I want to do it and make sure I've short a lot of time so that's the challenge not I think preaching you know on a regular basis

[00:17:12] you know pastors who are preaching weekend and weekend and I get it hopefully we have some others that come along that are preaching as well but still we're preaching on a regular basis

[00:17:24] just that need to vary the approach so it's not so predictable that people you know yeah great in nowadays going to do next yes yeah and then on that coming back to the notion of a good

[00:17:41] introduction have you like read anything good on introductions or have you written anything good on introductions to point us towards well I you know I don't know I remember several years ago

[00:17:57] I think reading maybe an entire book and introductions and it was it was good but it was pretty predictable okay sometimes I I think maybe there's not that much more to say other than yeah

[00:18:12] yeah we have to create some interest we've got to raise you know the need for the sermon I think that's a big one we've got an orient people of the text but beyond that you know as a

[00:18:26] spill-up sprux said years ago in his yellow preaching lecture being paraphrasing him of preaching is truthy personality so we're all going to be doing it a little bit differently I just find that maybe you know keeping it tighter is helpful I listen to a lot of sermons in

[00:18:45] in you know preaching teaching in seminaries Bible colleges and so I hear a lot of introductions and what strikes me some of them are kind of complex and it's like man I just want

[00:19:01] I want to get into the scripture yeah yeah I don't think we need to you know it's not just all right turned to you know turn to Psalm 46 and then we just go yeah I do think it needs some kind of

[00:19:14] setup but sometimes introductions are so elaborate that I think people listeners aren't going to work hard at processing this and they may listen politely but they're really not engaged because they're they're not following this fourth movement in this complicated introduction I just think

[00:19:37] simplicity is is huge when it comes to introductions and and here's another thing maybe one of my pet peeves when we you know if we need to share background information on a text I even hear good

[00:19:52] preachers do this same I've probably looked at this text let me give you a little background so you understand it well maybe I'm too cynical I've listened to so many sermons that that's just a big

[00:20:03] turn off for me I think we can accomplish the same thing in fact we can probably give even more historical cultural background or whatever it happens to be if we just weave that into the

[00:20:19] maybe the telling of this doesn't have to be a narrative sermon or even on an air to text but we can set it up in a much more interesting way you know instead of saying you know

[00:20:31] let me give you a little bit of background on Corinth before we look at this passage of first Corinthians I might just say something like do you realize what the apostle Paul was

[00:20:42] facing in the city of Corinth you know and then I might make an analogy with our time but I set it up in a more interesting way so I think that's another big one when it comes to

[00:20:53] introductions yes well I'm here for it I would just love to hear a list of all of your just like rants of things you've noticed over the years like zero context just like boom boom boom

[00:21:06] I bet you could have yeah quite a quite a list yes I've got several rants and I would have to say that with every rant somewhere along the line I've I've practiced the thing that I'm

[00:21:18] ramping against so it's not just it's not just against others it's in my own preach here's something I hate when others do it and when I do it as well yeah that's okay so you mentioned

[00:21:33] I'm hovering around the introduction thing a little bit but but you mentioned that like had Robinson was really impactful on your kind of like understanding of of a good sermon intro you had yeah

[00:21:44] really the privilege of learning from you know one of the real masters of American preaching of English speaking preaching what what are the sort of things that it was that you learned from

[00:21:57] that that man sure I I was initially drawn to him because I felt like here's here's a preacher who who ex-teaches both attacks and the listeners or the culture in which he's preaching and I

[00:22:15] you know I found a lot of preachers that were really good with the text and they had a lot of great information but sometimes the sermons were kind of a content dump and not much thought

[00:22:27] about the culture then I found listen other preachers that man they were just in tune with what's going on culturally been seen like the ex-teaches was a little thin so that that's what really

[00:22:39] drew me to him I think as I studied under him I I really learned that that he was teaching a philosophy more than a method in fact the first time I ever read his book the biblical preaching

[00:22:54] it's it came out and it's third edition before he passed away but that first edition there were parts of it I thought I just want to preach the book I have a what's all this busy work you know

[00:23:07] yeah big idea and you break it down into subject and compliment and then you these three functional questions and I just want to preach the Bible and it took me a while to realize that

[00:23:20] this is a way of thinking yourself clear so for example you know he's big on the big idea every sermon ought to have a main idea and it's interesting because a lot of people a lot of

[00:23:36] homoetics books talk about that you know Brian Chappel does and you know there's you know that there are others too probably most of the main preaching textbooks will give the nod to a

[00:23:48] big idea but but hadn't really thought that out and and he even thought it out so that if you have a passage that you'd say there are you know there are multiple pieces here he had

[00:24:02] a way of grouping that you know around this big idea so sometimes the criticism as well you know what if a biblical text has more than one idea well news flash every biblical text has more than one idea it's just what's the what's the central controlling idea so

[00:24:22] took me a while to realize that's not restrictive I mean you can have and and had news to say that the problem with sermons is not that they have multiple ideas it's that they have

[00:24:34] under-weighted ideas and so he was big on you know just synthesis how do you tie this all together and I'm big well he was big on this too I'm big on preaching the various literary genres

[00:24:50] of the text and of the Bible and some have said well certain genres really don't you don't have a main proposition or main idea but I would argue that's the best communication technique and those those writers are communicating some kind of a

[00:25:09] theological message and so what is that theological message and I think we do our listeners a great service when we do that maybe one other thing too that's been helpful he he talks about what he calls three functional questions or three developmental questions and he would apply these

[00:25:32] both the text and the listener I find it more helpful to apply them to the listener I kind of used maybe another grid when it comes to the text but he said you always have to ask the explanation

[00:25:45] question you have to anticipate where are my people going to say where am I listeners going to say what does that mean well then you have to explain some things then he says you also have to

[00:25:59] anticipate where will people ask the validation question and that is is this really true you know can I buy this and by the way he called that the CS Lewis question because CS Lewis

[00:26:14] is brilliant at that today I'd probably call it the Tim Keller question because the late Tim Keller was great at that and then the last question application would be you know what so what what

[00:26:27] difference is this making my life and and well I hadn't said we ought to anticipate as we are preaching a text or preparing to preach a text where are our listeners going to say

[00:26:41] wait a minute I don't understand well what does this mean and then we explain it or were they going to say I'm not sure I buy this and then were they going to say so what difference

[00:26:56] is this going to make and that's helped me by the way those questions you can't apply what you don't accept and you can't accept what you don't understand so there's kind of a logical flow to them

[00:27:09] that doesn't mean we use that as a formula for every main point and we have to it's just as you look at the sermon overall uh had those questions helped me because frankly some sermon was over

[00:27:21] explained things and you know I don't have to talk about the I do a lot of research on the Hebrew word for walk you know Abraham walked to check them well what does it mean in the Hebrew well

[00:27:37] same thing it means in the English you know he's he's I don't know how else to say he's he's walking he's using his legs to move from one place to another but there are certain places

[00:27:48] where I'm going to have to say okay this this is going to be unfamiliar people are going to say I'm not sure I buy this okay that's where I stop and explain something and then that second

[00:28:00] question I think that's the big one today maybe that's another adjustment I've made my preaching is to try to anticipate objections and you know do some do some apologetics saying yeah some of you're going to hear this and think that's got to be crazy but

[00:28:19] let me show you from scripture and even from this passage why that's reasonable or valid and then we're always applying so yeah there's a ton of things I've learned from Hadron Robinson

[00:28:30] but but those are some of the core things that yeah and it really stood out to me as I've preached over the years yeah and with with sounds like minor modifications or then applying the

[00:28:43] you know but I know that it's been a big shaping influence on on many and that's not an option anymore to learn from him in person and I suppose what was there about being there in the room

[00:28:58] like because of course I've read his book I have listened some of his lectures what if you gained from knowing him personally that I have not. Dirk one thing I think would be his humility

[00:29:11] in his godliness I mean he was a you know he was a godly man and he was very humble he didn't try to pass himself off as well I'm I'm the dean of preaching and you you know he would he would learn

[00:29:26] from anybody and he yeah he's just you know his his godliness was something that hopefully pick up when you read his books but you really you really sense that when you're you're with him I think

[00:29:41] hearing him wrestle with texts and how to preach them certainly hearing him critique us when we preached that was that was a terrifying sometimes you know leading experience but

[00:29:56] I remember one time we had to present our ex-adjesus to class this is in a this is in a doctoral class of had and then so I remember I started and I know was how would you preach this the ex-adjesus

[00:30:09] part one okay but then it was okay how are you gonna preach this and and I started I'm having no that's not gonna work no you're not and I know try this and so I do something different at the end

[00:30:19] of the time I'm just thinking why am I even here and then yeah and then a few minutes later you're out in the break and hallway and I'm getting a drink of water and had goes you know that's

[00:30:28] it's really good to have you as part of our program and I'm thinking did you just forget what happened in the room no he got the connection to the Holy Spirit you got convicted I'm gonna go be nice to

[00:30:40] that guy that's exactly right but I realized he he just cares about helping us improve our preaching and he loves us but he's gonna hold our feet to the fire so it was yeah that was a that was

[00:30:56] a great experience and just a lot of funny stories just just some of the things that and he he was such a gracious form person but I I remember once he stopped again the middle of staring

[00:31:08] and stop the guy was well and and it says it's just guy that he's preaching and he's kind of using a staying glass voice god you know spirit and had to stop something isn't it when you

[00:31:22] go through the drive-through to make Donald's do you answer or do you talk in a voice like that there goes no and have goes well stop doing that just preaching a normal voice all right go ahead

[00:31:35] and then the guy was gonna flustered and we all felt for him yeah so yeah it was so it was things like that that you know I guess you're around anybody it doesn't matter who it is you know they

[00:31:50] may write something but once you you get to hang out with them you see that a personality and maybe sometimes because that what they're with their writing sticks even though yeah well yeah I

[00:32:06] I know some other people that have gone through even that doctoral cohort or whatever it's called that he did and yeah they all have their own had Robinson stories and they're all they're all good

[00:32:17] they're all good no one has any dirt on that guy no he he really was a really was the man of integrity and his his humility I I remember there's only a couple years before he passed away when

[00:32:33] it was with him we we we did a follow up all these grads of the Doctor of Ministry program preaching at Gordon Conwell I hadn't just because of student requests offered a week you know

[00:32:49] every year right after Mother's Day we get together and study a book with him he bringing a biblical scholar and you know scholar and walk us through passages and then had and would talk

[00:33:00] with us about how to preach them but we still do that even though he's gone but I I remember him saying you know one thing that I really regret is that I didn't you know I didn't go to Salman

[00:33:13] and March you know and during the civil rights movement he says it was it was kind of a anathema you know back in in that day for a lot of conservative believers to do that but he says

[00:33:30] I you know I wish I would have done that to stand up my African American brothers and sisters and in Christ and some that he knew personally and and I thought wow that's you know that's the

[00:33:43] that's the older Christian man that I want to be never thinking that I've arrived but that always you know being open to where the spirit might point out blind spots things that I've done

[00:33:56] of a past and so it's a I really admire him for that yeah well yeah well thank you thank you for that you've yeah you benefited from him and I appreciate obviously he's impacted you in many ways but

[00:34:09] nice to hear those those tales those stories yeah you mentioned like a second ago you talked about how as had and was teaching you guys even these questions you said that these apply to various

[00:34:20] literary genres of the text and so I'd love to kind of pivot and then talk to you about some various literary genres I know that you've you've written at least one book on certain genres

[00:34:33] and you about to publish a second one so you've written about preaching Old Testament narrative and upcoming you have a book from Baker on preaching Old Testament poetry is there right have I

[00:34:43] missed any right so yeah I did the old the art of preaching Old Testament narrative I did that back in 2002 was first published that came out of my out of my doctoral dissertation at Gordon Conwell

[00:34:59] and yeah I'm grateful that that book was actually re a second edition was released in 2021 and the publisher had asked for I've really grateful for that because I think I made some big

[00:35:13] improvements and yeah so that book seemed new life and then just within the last few months I finished the art of preaching Old Testament poetry and that'll be out at the end of at the end

[00:35:28] of 2024 so I'm excited about that I actually did a couple of books that that probably haven't had the distribution but Hendrickson publishers published these back in like 2013 one was called let's see preaching the four gospels with confidence and the other was preaching the hard

[00:35:53] sayings of Jesus and did that kind of in conjunction with Christianity today or there their publication preaching today worked with the editor named Brian Larson and and so those ended up being published in two books and so I've had the opportunity to write about preaching the

[00:36:15] gospels as well but but yeah Old Testament has been kind of my area of focus and study and so yeah I've been been very grateful to have the opportunity to write on yeah preaching narrative and then preaching poetry which would be everything from Psalms to

[00:36:36] the wisdom books and Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes and then songs, yeah so you're hitting a lot of the genres then you're going to do law next or a pocalypse to glitter at your next well I've

[00:36:50] wondered about that I thought I was preaching the rest of the Bible by the same Matthews and oh boy yeah I thought about preaching the law you know that's that's a that's a big one it's a

[00:37:02] tough one but I think there's so much there I guess that might leave the prophets although the prophets have you know it's kind of a combination of everything else that you've already run into plus

[00:37:15] some unique forms the Old Testament prophets so what we'll see on that I it's interesting and thought about a pocalypse it my brother is he's a new testament professor at Denver Seminary and he's really he's been in the relationship he's a pocalypse he's a pocalypse he's a pocalypse

[00:37:31] look to get expert so we've actually talked about writing a book on preaching revelation he actually did a chapter two and I was supposed to do it then we then we both got involved in another writing

[00:37:44] projects and we kind of dropped that but who knows maybe someday we'll come back to it we'll see well watch this space and and I'll include links to yeah even those the Hendrixen books and

[00:37:55] the show notes will be full of of this type of stuff for the listener but yeah so what are your kind of takeaways from Old Testament narrative what are the I guess maybe put it negatively what are the mistakes people often make in preaching Old Testament narrative

[00:38:11] I think the big mistake and this is the one that I committed maybe one of the reasons why I bet on this quest to figure out how to preach these narratives as I I tried to preach it like

[00:38:23] I would preach Ephesians or you know a new testament of pistol when now I've even changed some of the way I approach in the way I preach epistles but I remember the first sermon series I did

[00:38:38] on a narrative book on First Samuel and my my sermon outlines well they were you know they were very what kind of tightly organized and that's the way to describe it I guess they were

[00:38:57] they were these very polished outlines that that I wanted to give to people so you know I was concerned that they would get the you know the outline of the passage you know

[00:39:11] the verification of this the the the the the you know I had my three V's it was all parallel and then I would always say now the big idea this story is and I'd give it a way up front and then okay

[00:39:24] off we go well that's not how stories weren't so I discovered I realized I'm not using a story form to preach these stories and of course when I say stories I believe there their historical accounts they're completely accurate you know so I'm not diminishing them by

[00:39:48] calling them stories it's it's a compliment saying these are these are narratives this is this is history but it's told in a very skillful artistic way like a good storyteller would tell it and

[00:40:04] when we preach the narrative the Old Testament while we have to do more than just retell the story we can't do less than that and it's it's through that retelling of the story that people will get

[00:40:18] the big idea and and I'll I'll say it if three maybe four times towards the end of the sermon that's usually where that idea will emerge but I won't say all right let me give you the big idea

[00:40:31] I'll be repeated enough that I think people will be able to remember if they've been tracking with a story it's kind of hard to miss and they might say it in their own words and that's fine but

[00:40:44] that's a big adjustment from the what's the old-al at age tell them what you're going to tell them and then tell them what you told them that's that's terrible communication advice for preachers at least in most settings now I have it's interesting I have a brilliant brilliant attorney

[00:41:07] and in one of my classes and I'm teaching it's actually a master's level you know biblical literature classes and and this particular attorney she's actually a trial lawyer

[00:41:24] and she told me she says yeah that's that's kind of what we were taught to do but I get it in some settings maybe that's good advice but even she would say yeah she could see the value to

[00:41:38] telling a story well and but the client tells she's dealing with particular industry where she's dealing with yeah it maybe it makes sense to to go with that other approach but

[00:41:51] man in stories we we really have to we have to tell the story in a compelling way and let the story communicate that that truth yeah we'll we'll state the idea we'll we'll help our listeners we'll

[00:42:06] make some connections but but we do that in the context of telling the story so that that seems like it should be obvious but it hasn't been in in American preaching you know over the last

[00:42:18] hundred years or so okay why yeah why why is that why do you think so I think one reason is that we for whatever reason at least the church traditions I grew up and we really got locked into

[00:42:35] the new testament of pencils and while the new testament of epistles are literary and there's actually some places where they're a little bit more narrative I mean they're they're tightly argued they're they're you know what they're they're logical in those were you you can track

[00:42:55] that the logic you can track this unfolding or this developing argument where it just works different story but I think because that's often where churches I grew up in I'd say 80 maybe even 90% of the sermons I heard were on New Testament letters and because of that I

[00:43:17] think that shaped the way that we've preached other passages and so we we treat everything like well you know I've got to walk through and lay out this this argument this developing argument yeah

[00:43:30] but that's not always how narrative works I mean with a narrative you yeah it's all built around a crisis and a resolution and that's what you're looking for when you you're stunning a narrative

[00:43:44] so I think that's a big reason maybe two in our culture I still see this you know whether it's cowboys or or whether it's chemists and I've had both in churches I've served I mean they they

[00:43:59] like the cold hard facts you know give me a bullet point list right and that's often favored and so I think we do that by default we bring that to these narratives and we try to

[00:44:12] preach them in the same way that just doesn't work very well yeah yeah people myself included yeah we want a list of things to do not some unfolding narrative full of like mystery and plot development

[00:44:28] and surprises with turns but the Bible most of Bible isn't written in bullet points most of it is these stories yeah exactly and even in poetic sections I'm struck by how often in the songs there's

[00:44:43] a there's an emotional kind of a plot where you kind of track the emotion of a song and the meaning is is closely tied to that emotional development and I'm not saying the songs aren't

[00:45:01] irrational because they they are but you know often they're they're playing off that that emotional development and yet we miss that if we insist on you know trying to you know present these like a

[00:45:16] highly structured lawyers brief that just isn't going to work very well yeah yeah well I do you imagine poetry even just there yeah like kind of briefly what are the sort of what you say

[00:45:29] there's these are the exact same mistakes people make in teaching Old Testament poetry are there are there different genres of mistakes for the different genre of poetry yeah I think it's similar we

[00:45:43] we've still try to preach songs like we do yeah Ephesians or or Romans and and in a poetry is challenging because it's it's the language of just a great concentration of images now there's images and imagery and in Romans or Ephesians or first Peter but yeah the concentration

[00:46:11] of of metaphors and and other kinds of images you know word pictures and in Psalms and in other poetic books is it's just thick with those and you have to let those you know grab

[00:46:28] you emotionally and I think you have to be patient with them sometimes reading a little more slowly and then of course there's that whole kind of that genius approach to poetry that's called parallelism where you have these lines that that work together and it's funny even there

[00:46:52] sometimes people want to label those we have these categories and you know like I think my brother Dave is one who talks about pin the label on the grammatical construction and we've got to

[00:47:04] do more than that but I but I am interested in helping people you know as they read a song they read this line and then what does an excellent do is it's saying the same thing in different words

[00:47:17] is it adding something to it is a providing a contrast is it is it explaining a figure speech and just stopping to appreciate the way that that the aesthetics of the text that the aesthetic beauty

[00:47:35] these figures of speech are used to communicate theology I mean it really is a really is amazing so I think a lot of poetry is just patience and working with the imagery realizing that

[00:47:53] there's a lot more perhaps than another part of the Bible and yeah just using that to discern what you know what's what's God saying in this passage I think the other challenge to with Psalms is that by

[00:48:08] by literary form the Psalms are our words directed to God or the the Psalmist words directed to God and yet it still gods word to us and I had to think about that the first time somebody

[00:48:25] pointed that out but it's like yeah that's that's why we struggle at times this Psalm takes the form of my cry to the Lord and I realize it was a Psalmist cry but then as I pray this as I read this

[00:48:38] I'm I'm crying out to God and pain or I'm crying out and prays but in doing that even though I'm directing my words to God that those words are God's words to me so I think that can be a little bit

[00:48:54] disorienting for people sometimes when they read the Psalms or try to preach them yeah I really my heart kind of jumped when you said that yeah poetry requires patience and it really does but if you patient with it's literary form but if you patient with yeah

[00:49:14] like I was at earlier our desire for bullet points lists but you'd be patience to understand how it is and yeah speaking of patience this conversation is going to come out I guess probably

[00:49:26] about mid July and so those those that are listening they're going to have to be patience because your book on poetry isn't even out yet so let's come out and just say I hope I hope that this book

[00:49:37] ends up under a lot of Christmas trees well thanks yeah I hope it I hope it does too I you know I really write these first of all I probably I wrote these to help help myself to figure out what I was

[00:49:52] doing but I'm you know I'm thrilled if I can help other pastors or preachers or whether they're veterans or those in training because I've had so many people who have helped me and I I kind of

[00:50:04] feel that's something God's wired me and called me to do is to help bridge the gap between the academy and using some of the you know the great scholarly resources and discoveries insights

[00:50:17] that are there but then you know trying to use those in the service of proclaiming God's word to to every day people I don't want to say ordinary I mean I every week I preach when I preach I

[00:50:32] preach people who are somewhere a lot smarter than I am a lot of them are but then I have the background of biblical studies and so I love the challenge of trying to help people understand the riches of

[00:50:44] God's word but as someone who is standing under the word under the authority of scripture and realizing this is something that they have to obey and respond to so yeah so for that reason I hope the book

[00:50:59] is is helpful that's you know that's what's meaningful to me I mean the first time you publish a book yeah that's pretty cool I'm a published author and that that last her about five minutes but then

[00:51:13] you know then it really is all about you know how how is this helping you know build the church by by equipping pastors so I'm I'm really grateful that that what I've done in the past has been

[00:51:28] helpful to some and hopefully yeah hopefully this next book will be the same yeah and as I mentioned to the listeners yeah the show notes will have links to what you've already put out

[00:51:39] and then maybe even a place to go to Baker and pre-order it or at least put a little pin in there to put it on your Christmas wishlist well I'm I'm looking at the time and I yeah I'd love to talk

[00:51:50] with you about more stuff but I'm kind of out of at a time maybe we could circle back later on but I end I end each of these podcast interviews like we always start at the same way

[00:52:02] what was your first sermon and then we always end with this last question of like how are you currently trying to improve so like kind of like your next sermon what would you like to get a

[00:52:12] little bit better at at your next sermon? I love that question because I've been preaching for like I said for 38 years in pastoral ministry and I feel like you know it's only in the last six

[00:52:26] months or so that I finally figured out what I'm doing. I'm just so encouraging slash discouraging. Oh I know I said that 10 years ago I wrote 15 years ago, 20 years ago all say that you know

[00:52:39] on my death bed and I think that's part of it we we never stop growing at least we shouldn't um you know I mentioned at the outset one of the big things is you know working on introductions.

[00:52:53] Yeah I'd say another one though is you know somebody made the observation that Tim Keller who's been a model for a lot of preachers that he is was really good at weaving cultural artifacts and cultural needs into his sermons and and I've been trying to do

[00:53:18] you know more of that not not to be clever or to be you know cutting edge hey I just quoted Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift but to say hey who are the people in my congregation listening to

[00:53:32] or what ideas are they hearing in their in their workplace and and I'm trying to to show how the the scriptures address those things into this little bit of reverse engineering if I'm

[00:53:51] preaching passage on a Roman because I've got to say all right now if I've got people you know and sometimes I'll try to imagine people sitting in front of being you know in office and

[00:54:05] you know here's a here's a retired you know business person and and you know this is what he's wrestling with and then here's a you know here's a pediatrician who's you know in her early 40s

[00:54:23] and she's got young kids and here's her struggles and here's you know here's somebody else it's a single parent or or here's somebody else who's who's single and they're in this church with a whole bunch of families and you know here's somebody who's battling you know mental illness

[00:54:41] or they get a parent with dementia and just thinking about what what kind of things are they hearing from their culture whether it's from specific artists or whether it's just you know these

[00:54:53] of the cultural narratives and and then saying all right in this particular passage of here are the answers in in Romans 12 but what what is this addressing what is a speak to kind of thinking

[00:55:08] backwards and then bringing those things up in a sermon so I'm I'm constantly constantly working on that maybe that's the maybe that's kind of the frontier that I'm working on these days but

[00:55:24] yeah I'm always always on a quest to improve oh maybe the other thing would be just try to tie whatever passage I'm preaching into the larger story of scripture and

[00:55:39] and I've done a lot more with that in recent years than I feel like I'm still you know still working on that just making these connections and I'm old enough now you know that I've studied the

[00:55:51] Bible long enough I'm starting to make these connections easier than I did you know 30 years ago or even 20 years ago even 10 years ago so I'm doing that as well. Well yeah I appreciate that

[00:56:04] you know you have much to teach us about preaching and that you're also in the process of constantly improving yourself so like I said kind of jokingly yeah that's encouraging and slightly discouraging

[00:56:16] I think there's always more there's always more and then also this is the final final question kind of an ambush journalism question. Do you have any podcasts you could recommend about fly fishing?

[00:56:31] Oh man you loved the softball there so you know but yeah a friend and I do a fly fishing podcast we call it two guys on a river and if you look at well you probably haven't

[00:56:44] shown that it's but it would be the number two and then the rest of it's I think it's yeah the rest of it's spelled out so two guys in a river and we just have fun talking about

[00:56:56] fly fishing we just position ourselves as a couple of you know mediocre fly fissures that kind of like to tell stories and occasionally maybe we'll pass on some wisdom that might be helpful

[00:57:10] but we have a lot of fun doing it yeah. Well excellent I'm not a fly fishing myself but what am I very best friends Clay World is gonna love this show so I'll be pointing it towards him

[00:57:23] and anyone else who would care to listen well yeah as the thanks so much for your time and yeah maybe later on in the year we could talk more about preaching Christ in the Old Testament.

[00:57:33] Yeah I love to write that's a topic we just didn't have time to do. I know that was actually pretty sad to do the math and realize we can't talk about the most important thing but I'm sure

[00:57:43] I'm sure that will make a way for for more of that take place. Yeah we'll do it again. All right well yeah for the listeners of this show I hope that this conversation and all we do with expositors

[00:57:53] collective helps you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word thanks again Steve. Thank you Mike. All right well thanks for listening all the way to the end

[00:58:05] as you heard we actually never got to the main point of our conversation but I think it was really good regardless so I can nearly guarantee that Steve is gonna be back on the show sometime in the

[00:58:21] future and he mentioned how much he learned from Hadden Robinson well do you know that two members of the expositors collective leadership team were also students of Hadden so you've benefited

[00:58:35] from this guy more than you know. So in the link to the show notes you can find interviews and workshops from Dr. Alan Stoddard and also Dr. John Whitaker and I have the pleasure of serving with those

[00:58:51] brothers to lead this ministry and if you want to gain more from them check out the links in the show notes those links are there and they're right next to the giving option to sponsor an

[00:59:06] expositor in Kempaula Uganda. So make sure that you don't pass that link over and I hope that this episode and all we do at expositors collective helps you to grow in your personal study

[00:59:19] and public proclamation of God's word. This podcast is a part of C.G. in Media, a podcast network that points to Christ we are supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows visit cgmedia.org slash support