The role of small group ministry and spiritual formation

[00:00:02] Welcome to the STOKE IT UP podcast everybody, a podcast encouraging you in your journey with God. I'm Alan Stoddard and I'm here today with Kaho's Kenneth Priest. And we are resuming this week, the series that we had going.

[00:00:17] Today we're going to talk about small groups and how they spiritually form us. Next week we'll be talking about new believer discipleship and how it's important to disciple new believers right when they cross the line of faith.

[00:00:31] Before we jump in to the conversation, I want to invite you to the Calvary Global Network International Conference. It's going to be held on June 23rd through the 26th at Calvary Chapel Coast Amasia, California. This year's theme centers around the Book of First Peter.

[00:00:48] I'm excited to go and be a part of it. I've been going to Calvary conferences for many years now and there's time for you to join us at conference.calvarychapold.com. Also, there's still good up podcast as a part of CGN maybe. That points people to Christ.

[00:01:06] We work together to proclaim the gospel and make disciples and plant churches. Well like I've said, we've been out of pocket for a couple weeks. We've been recording some episodes so that we can actually be ahead because the schedule was kind of kick in us.

[00:01:22] So we jump way ahead. We've got some interviews coming on spiritual formation and I'm excited about the next season. Well today, let's jump into a conversation on the role of small groups. Do small groups influence our spiritual formation?

[00:01:40] What small groups have influenced you in your journey with God? If you're not in a small group, would you be willing to jump in?

[00:01:48] Listen to this conversation and think about these things and then let us know what you think about growing in a small group to be spiritually formed into the image of Christ.

[00:02:06] Alright everybody, thanks for tuning in here to the Stoke it up podcast, not the quad cast, the podcast. And I'm here with Kenneth Pertis and we've been kind of on a little highatus for a couple weeks just because of travel and life but we're back.

[00:02:23] And we're talking about spiritual formation in this season of podcast life. And we're hoping that you'll join us in a conversation last week, it was on Pre-Jean. This week it's going to be on small groups, definitely a passion for us to say the least.

[00:02:42] So let's talk about spiritual formation and small groups. Kenneth, tell us how you think is the state of small group life in churches these days. If I ask you that question, what's your response? Well, I would say not good. Overall, well that's the overall statistics are showing.

[00:03:11] That whether you're using Sunday School or small groups, the commitment level to them are no longer what they used to be. And I've gotten out there, you know, I've been doing transitional pastries the past couple years and you know partly coming out of COVID.

[00:03:31] When we re-engage from COVID, people were more comfortable coming back into worship first.

[00:03:38] And they didn't want to re-engage with a small group because they were still scared to get in a small room or go to some strangers house or somebody's house in case, you know, of getting the COVID virus.

[00:03:53] So it's been hard to get re-engaged. I believe it's a part of that. But partly has been as I've done these transitional pastries, the models that the churches are using. Just are not especially in pioneer regions where I've done my work are just not encouraging for small groups.

[00:04:15] In fact, it's a lot of worship. They might offer small groups during the week somewhere. But typically there's just not as strong of a commitment level to those small groups. So you used to be that Sunday school numbers were running up in the 85, 88% of worship attendants.

[00:04:39] And I've looked at statistics recently. We've kind of seen that number dropping down into the 70s. And so there's not as a strong of engagement of going same thing with the small groups. You know, people count small groups differently.

[00:04:56] I mean, they're like, oh, you know, we start and stop. We do them semesterally. And so we only count during the month of October. And so if you attend one session during the month of October, we count you as attending our small group.

[00:05:11] And that's not an accurate reflection. So our numbers are never matching up apples to apples. It's always a little skewed in that. But the numbers are just not continuing to to hold that level of commitment.

[00:05:27] And so, you know, for me it's a spiritual practice that is a part of the growth.

[00:05:34] And I kind of talked about this a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about preaching specifically and kind of walked you through the me and my eight passage and the whole crowd community core model.

[00:05:48] I believe you've got to have this teaching Tom and a small group environment that allows you to move into a core time, which is more disciple making taking place in smaller even smaller pods. And so if we're missing out on that.

[00:06:07] So, you know, worship attendants is into climb. Therefore, sun is called attendance is into climb. Therefore, engagement in the churches overall in the climb. If I were to ask you what your average person might come up and say, why should I go to a small group?

[00:06:27] How will it form me spiritually? How would you answer that? Well, I would actually have to do some investigating. Great. Okay. What church are you a part of? What are they defining as a small group? What does that look like?

[00:06:45] And let's find out. You know, it's the hole in this goes back to that. But we talked about a couple weeks ago when the MIA, but it goes back to this whole idea. You know, if every time you meet as a church something different is being taught.

[00:07:05] It does give you some Bible knowledge. So it is beneficial to an extent, but it's not strategic and it's not intentional to help you in that disciple making maturation process.

[00:07:21] And so for me, it's evaluating the specific church to see what their strategy is if they actually have a strategy. And being able to have that conversation centered around that for general, you know, Charlie Churchgoer.

[00:07:39] If we're looking at that and saying, you know, should I go to a Sunday school small group class? Well, yeah, you're going to benefit some from this. If there's engagement happening in that Sunday school small group, if you're going in there to listen to a lecture,

[00:07:56] there's no connecting with other people. You kind of walk in the room, you sit down, you're all in rows, you wait for a teacher to come in, he walks in the door and teaches, he gets up and leaves.

[00:08:08] And there's no conversation, you know, that's just like going to the worship service and not engaging with anybody. That's not what biblical community is about. And so if you're going to go into a small group and you're going to engage with people, begin to have conversation.

[00:08:27] Fellowship, genuine covenient, where our fellowship is moving beyond just meeting for social events, but it's on mission together in life. Then that is something worth considering. I don't know how beneficial it is.

[00:08:48] You meet so many, biblically illiterate people that go to church and go to Sunday school, but they're still not really engaging in the word. They're not being transformed the image of Christ because there's no intentionality in what's taking place. So it's really a loaded question, Alan.

[00:09:08] So it's kind of looking a lot of factors to know if it would be beneficial for them. Man, I thought you were going to give a very spiritual nice and make me feel good answer that was not very satisfying at all.

[00:09:24] You just totally challenge the whole thing man. So I would say this now, I've been thinking about this question. But okay, for those listening, Kenneth and I go back a long, long way to 1996.

[00:09:40] And in 97, Kenneth really mentored me and courage me and revitalizing and growing a Sunday school and a small Baptist church in the rural area of northeast Texas. I mean, at first I thought this can't work. It won't work.

[00:10:01] Well, I was definitely wrong. We started doing what people like Ken Hempel were telling us and Darrell Elders and things like that working and doing the things you do to keep healthy small groups, healthy leaders and all this.

[00:10:13] Man, they're seeing you know that thing was growing. It was really exciting. But Kenneth probably falls more, let's say, into a Sunday school model.

[00:10:25] And I probably have shifted over to more of a small group model. Now when I say that, there is this middle ground that we find. And I believe that is where the church has been for the last 20 years. Because both models are needed and will reach people.

[00:10:44] Okay. Now, how many said that? And what would be your ideal Sunday school class that is representative of today, not the past? Yeah. Get the question I'm asking. Absolutely. Yes. Because because of that is because a lot of it in the past was based on a lecture model.

[00:11:10] I can remember when they would say, yeah, you know, don't allow discussion in your class. We have to get through the lesson. Yeah. But I really, really thought that in the last years. Okay. So what do you think? You're the guy on it.

[00:11:23] And if you got more not only leadership experience, but you and Debbie are actually believers in this community you're talking about. So what would you say a class should look like that would spiritually form people properly? Right.

[00:11:39] So the church that we were working with when we were fresh out of COVID, we helped them relaunch their Sunday school. Actually, two churches, two different churches in Hawaii. We helped them relaunch their Sunday school. Two different models.

[00:11:57] But what we did at the one church, the first church Sunday school is traditional model Sunday school and then worship. And so it was more about just go back to using their curriculum. As I was preaching through, you know, Bible book, text driven series.

[00:12:14] And so it was where they were. I'm transitional pastor. I'm not in there to make a bunch of changes. I'm trying to, especially coming out of COVID. It was just to kind of let's get our programming relaunched. And so it served a purpose.

[00:12:29] And it was fine, but by the time we got to the second church we were working with COVID head. It was still in Hawaii. It was a lot worse as far as the requirements and restrictions everything. They just started freeing up the ability to meet.

[00:12:43] So we actually did, they did Sunday school, small groups after worship, which is what I, you know, really enjoyed because we were able to do sermon based small groups.

[00:12:55] And so I taught one of the groups and had one of the other leaders teaching one of the other groups. It was just two adult classes. And then the children and the youth had their classes.

[00:13:07] And so we were able to, I was able to create my sermon series as well as give them small group curriculum that was centered around discussion.

[00:13:17] And so that's what I believe that Sunday school small group time should be. It should be a conversation based off the sermon connected to the sermon. Now, you know, we talk about that. Sometimes there's the literal discussion about the pastor said this.

[00:13:33] What do you think about it? Let's engage with that. Let's go. But sometimes it's hey, he preached out of Ephesians one 30,000 foot view.

[00:13:43] Let's take a couple elements out of Ephesians one and let's dive deeper and then discuss those. And so that's where we're going deeper and deeper into the word.

[00:13:54] And so we used that model, and especially when we did, I like to do a series that's through the Bible in a hundred days when I'm in a situation like that.

[00:14:04] I'm just helping people get the grand story of God. And so Sunday school as well as Bible teaching during the week would always be connected with where the reading was along with the preaching is where the reading was.

[00:14:18] We're able to walk through a time of discussion where there is some some teaching that takes place. There's some exegesis on the text, but then we're coming back and asking some specific questions related to that commentary that we made about the text.

[00:14:35] And in order to get people thinking further about the text and that's really my preference if I'm going to be in a small group is people engaging in the word. It does a couple of things for the facilitator not just if you're the pastor leading a group, but for the facilitator,

[00:14:55] it lets you know where the people are in their spiritual growth. You're able to hear people who when they respond to the questions that you ask, when they're responding to the text, you kind of know,

[00:15:10] are they maturing in their faith, are they solid biblically or are they missing it? And so you're immediately able to deal with, we'll just say, you know, poor theology on their part, poor noctrine.

[00:15:25] If they're interpreting scripture wrong, there was a well you know, understand what you're saying but actually what this text means is. And so you're providing that that corrective interpretation on scripture and during that conversation.

[00:15:39] And so for me, that's what these discussion groups should do. They shouldn't be, you know, go to acts to 42 through 47 and you look at, you know, they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching.

[00:15:52] What were the apostles teaching them? Well, they were teaching what Jesus had taught them. So the Old Testament would have been ducked doctrine. It would have been theology, it would have been how to witness how to engage the community. So these types of things.

[00:16:06] And so the same thing should be happening in your small group and your Sunday school time is let's look at what we're teaching and asking those questions about, are they getting it? Is the word transforming them more into the image of Christ?

[00:16:24] Yeah, I love that. We need small groups in our lives. I think all the way back to when I first got married and started going to church, Jesus Sunday school. I didn't know what I was doing. They were probably studying the book of Ezekiel. I had no idea what we were talking about. I was just baking it.

[00:16:44] But there's something about putting yourself in a smaller circle of people just for the sake of I'm going there to sit. So if we were in the same church, I'd go there just because you and debut there.

[00:16:59] You know, I'm going to my friends. I don't care what happens in the class. It's not just the content I do care what happens in the class. But I'm saying it's not the only thing I do fellowship. I'm there to connect with people.

[00:17:12] My wife's an introvert so she doesn't have to do that but she does do it because she knows she needs to be in the fellowship of people and then we also need to be mobilized for serving.

[00:17:24] I like what you say about discussion. It makes me think about this kid. I was teaching a younger adult class at Cornerstone Baptist Church.

[00:17:33] We got our room switched and it was a little bit of drama. Then I finally realized, okay, I had moved down to Starbucks which is not what you do. I was like this the room that gave me was too small.

[00:17:50] When we came back, we got the fellowship all big old room and that class grew from about 20 to 50 in about a year. Something like that.

[00:18:02] There was up to 52 people one Sunday. The Lord was like, you don't know any of these people though. You don't really know them. I was like, you know what you're right. So we started a small group out of that big group.

[00:18:18] But here's one of the things that happened for discussion. One day this guy, young adult raises his hand and says, I want to say something. This kid never said a word not a peep nothing.

[00:18:32] When he raised his hand, he said something like, I just want to everybody know I don't say much in this group but I'm getting a lot out of it.

[00:18:41] And when he said that in my heart, I went, I am that is why I exist. I want this guy who may or may not say anything in a class but he would say something to let us know I'm connected.

[00:18:57] I'm connected as a person, I'm connected in the content. I didn't say much more than that but I would have this if you don't have discussion. You're not creating an environment for disciple making to happen. What do you think about that?

[00:19:13] I think that's absolutely a true statement because again, you don't know where the class is if you don't hear them talk.

[00:19:23] I'm just filling out my knowledge that I have and the reality is, I don't know what I'm talking about but I'm going up there acting like I know what I'm talking about.

[00:19:38] And you're sitting there going wait a second, maybe I don't agree with this guy but you're not given me a chance to discuss to robot whatever and so there has to be this opportunity for dialogue, for discussion, for challenge, for feedback.

[00:19:56] That's what I do when I'm preaching, the Bible says only one or two should speak the rest are sitting judgment of what's being said and what I teach the church is just to have your Bible open to what I'm preaching on.

[00:20:11] You're supposed to be weighing what I say against the word of God and if you have questions about it, if you have issues about what I say then you should ask me about it.

[00:20:20] And so I love it when somebody comes up and says well you know I heard you say this and I was reading and help me understand how you got there from here. And so we can hermanutically help them with those conversations.

[00:20:37] Yeah, I like that. Let me ask you this, I think I've heard you talk about this before. When you have a big Sunday school group, how do you do fellowship in that group?

[00:20:52] Yeah, so it depends on like we were in a group of the church show main name remain nameless but we've been a group where the class was like 150 people right.

[00:21:04] I mean the Sunday school class is bigger than the average normative church, the normative church runs about 50, 6 on Sunday morning and so we're like three times the size of the normative church.

[00:21:17] And when they did a true class fellowship, you know not everybody would show up obviously but you would have 60, 70, 80 people showing up at somebody's house and they would just be all over the house.

[00:21:32] And you really, you're not connecting well even in a house somebody's house even over a meal. You connect with the people that you sit around and have dinner with right and really depends on who you have at the table if there's conversation taking place.

[00:21:47] I was talking to a guy in the past couple of days, he was at a memorial day picnic type of that fish for it.

[00:21:55] And he said, you know, because it was really weird. He goes, man, I go here and you got this one table over here that they would only talk with each other. They wouldn't talk with anybody else.

[00:22:07] And then you had this table over here. They weren't talking to anybody even with one another at the table. They're just sitting there staring around eating their food, not doing anything. And they had this group over here that they were trying to talk with everybody that they could.

[00:22:21] It was just a showed the three different types of people that are out there and that's what happens when you have too many people around. Those that like to talk, that clickish get together and have their conversations.

[00:22:35] The all the introverts, you know, they go sit in the area together and they basically aren't talking to anybody. And then you do have the social lights that are trying to walk around and talk with me. I mean, that's what happened.

[00:22:48] So the way that they tried to do things in this class was they would try to like divide up and what you might call care groups or shepherds teams, though they didn't really want to use any of that language.

[00:23:02] But they would try to put together these little fellowship groups and say, hey, why don't you invite three or four or five couples, whatever it is over to your house? And then that became your rotation, your routine, those same people would be invited.

[00:23:15] So out of a group of 150 now you're meeting with 12 or 14 people on a regular basis for fellowship and connecting with that group. But you're not getting to know the other 130 people in the room.

[00:23:29] You're only getting to know, so you've created your own little small group in that, but you're not doing com biblical community because you're not studying God's word as a small group. You're just fellowship big together when you have those opportunities.

[00:23:43] And so it's very difficult in that larger context to move to the genuine community type of model.

[00:23:53] When you do have the opportunity to create just like you said, you were you took this class of 50 something and then you started inviting these smaller groups to form out of that. That's where disciple making that's where community takes place. That's where biblical point in the is happening.

[00:24:12] And so there's an intentionality that came behind that though, you kind of came to a point you're like, oh we need to do this with with intentionality you started doing that. And that created a different environment for your group to experience because you do accept.

[00:24:29] Yeah, the group totally changed and it it's spiritually formed all of us. I missed those guys so much now, but it shaped us into just experiencing the kind of discipleship that you read about in the gospels and the book of Acts.

[00:24:47] Yeah, you you you don't see it and learn about it. You experience it. That's why I've leaned over into a small group. I think doing it at a home and you know only have to do it at home.

[00:25:01] I had a Calvary Chapel brother this weekend in Oakland he started talking about Sunday school in Cermany small groups. I said dude it's possible. You can definitely do it and I was surprised because Calvary Chapel don't do Sunday schools from the most part.

[00:25:16] Right, and I would say the Calvary Chapel guys that are cutting edge and or under 40 are into strategizing for small groups. The ones that are older they think it all happens from the platform.

[00:25:34] And that goes back to the preaching conversation we had last time about you know does preaching disciple. Well, yes it does.

[00:25:41] But the picture we see in the book of Acts isn't just preaching even in those house groups there seems to be an environment where more than preaching happened as you said fellowship breaking a bread and then praying together.

[00:25:59] When you're that's one thing I didn't like about Sunday schools. I'm a it is once once I year constrained by time.

[00:26:07] Yeah, and you can't do it also yet to shift your model and the model for Sunday school has been growth which on four however it lacked in a balanced discipleship thing and the same thing can happen in a home group.

[00:26:21] So you and I have gone back and forth on that. It absolutely that it can happen that way, but you know it concerns me is that there's a lack of leadership that really prioritize a small group in church.

[00:26:38] I know you believe this with me that I believe I get this from Larry Osborne and sticky church, but it was already a thing by the time I read that.

[00:26:48] The number two thing in the church outside of Sunday morning should be small groups and I would say everyone should be challenged to be in a small group you're not going to get everybody but the shaping of the spiritual life because of that group is so.

[00:27:06] It's almost guaranteed if you'll just go put yourself in the middle and in the circle.

[00:27:13] It may be a group you don't like and you may switch your group or something like that, but if you go two years and go to a small group you're going to grow in ways that you will not if you don't.

[00:27:27] Right. Yeah, and I would don't think I'm that too that as long as the models, once what you're encouraging people to engage in is a biblical community, small group right because if like you know we kind of talk about if all you're doing is showing up some of his house and all that takes place is eating.

[00:27:46] You're never engaging with God's word. You know we're missing. Absolutely so it's that whole idea of you know where we started you were like hey what's your ideal. You know if we have the idealized and that is the intentionality that leaders have to.

[00:28:07] Stry for an attempt to develop is that intentionality of what the small group the Sunday school should look like.

[00:28:15] And what elements we should have in you know the you talked about like the element of prayer and prayer does you know also sudden it becomes a check sheet a checklist. We got to do this and so we just kind of.

[00:28:31] Everybody right out your prayer request and we just kind of re read the prayer request and that's you know one of the biggest frustrations is you know I don't need somebody to read the list to me I can read for myself just email to me.

[00:28:43] So, you know let's just let's just pray right we're not to pray through this list right now email it to me I'll pray through that list later.

[00:28:53] If every time we come into Sunday school the only prayer that takes place is we just pray through our prayer list then I don't think that we're creating that type of environmental context.

[00:29:05] And then there's the decide that you know following finding that balanced approach right and say look it's okay if sometimes prayer goes a little long it's okay Bible study was cut a little short because the prayer need to take place.

[00:29:20] You had some specific needs you need to deal with that's that's perfectly fine we're not going to be so.

[00:29:27] Bridget that we're only devoting five minutes to prayer thirty five minutes to Bible study ten minutes to fellowship yeah I mean that gets to me you can have the idealized model but if you say this is all we're going to do.

[00:29:42] I think that's the reason out your times up you can't pray any longer say I mean it's time first to get into the Bible but you know that's when we're we're just not creating biblical community in that group.

[00:29:54] Yeah I like it I put something on Twitter the other day. I was thinking about it when I was in California and it was.

[00:30:05] One I'm tired of pastor saying they're too busy to do certain things I'm like everybody's busy but I probably just have a little bit of. I'm going to say that I'm going to say that the people are going to have a little bit of.

[00:30:21] But it's pretty much a challenge in attitude on that but there's three things that a pastor and or leader but pastors need to do. And all of us can help our pastors do this is they got a disciple in three areas I would say new believers.

[00:30:36] They need to disciple the small group leaders in the church. They need to newer younger or old budding preachers. Those are three things I think we can no longer assume those things will just happen will send them off the seminary and for this conversation on small groups.

[00:31:01] For a pastor not to spiritually form small group leaders through a once a week meaning around a cup of coffee send an email or video to those who couldn't make it or do what we're doing do a zoom call of some kind.

[00:31:17] I just think it's their election to do the now. Yeah, that's thanks for do eye right you know it goes back to.

[00:31:25] Well it goes back to old school man I mean what you're advocating is something that we used to do in southern Baptist life back in the 50 60 70's even into the 80's.

[00:31:35] The pastor did meet with Sunday school teachers every week and it was for the purpose of going over the text of Sunday school for the upcoming Sunday so that if there were challenging doctrinal issues if there were challenging theological issues.

[00:31:52] He was able to answer their questions he was able to equip his teachers to deal with issues and then that became something that you know we don't have time for anymore we can't do this anymore.

[00:32:05] And so we stop doing it and I believe the church begins to suffer because the pastor is not going to get that gap.

[00:32:14] Yeah, I don't shut my mouth on this. Sorry the church is suffering all night and I'm this tired of guys like me pastor ties on my grill we're going to say we don't have one hour a day at lunch to invite people to be around a table and do to them.

[00:32:29] Well we want them to do to the rest of the body that's just ridiculous and the stakes are so high for people they we've got to do this this isn't a small thing I know you know that I know I think well look man.

[00:32:45] We want to encourage you listeners to be in a small group if we were going to give you some challenge getting a small group don't be the kind of Christian says I go everyone's a while maybe I will just go to church listen to the pastor and a group of a hundred or two hundred or a thousand or ten thousand don't do that find a small group for you to be in and give it.

[00:33:05] Oh, yeah, I would say give it one year and just go don't have expectations on the group if it's boring or if it's not you who may be hanging out and try another group but overall it's not going to be that.

[00:33:17] Go and put yourself in a smaller group community just to be around those people and if you don't get anything out of it.

[00:33:25] Sorry I'm preaching but if you don't get anything out of it, you're going to encourage other people and got your Christian live will ignite by being around other people I say like this there is confidence in community.

[00:33:39] Don't just listen to preaching get around some other people and get the know them that's what your savior did for three years with the 12.

[00:33:48] And that is what they did in the book of acts they went and started these house churches I've been translating by Lee men and it says the church in your house. So we've got to get back to some house church kind of life.

[00:34:03] So we want to encourage you to be spiritually formed by small groups and we hope you take that conversation. That way, can it any last comment before we check out.

[00:34:13] So the last thing I would add to that is if you're sitting there and you've visited every class in your church and you're like man this just isn't it you know it's all like sure it's all this go talk to your past turns I look.

[00:34:26] I want to be the guy that starts a new unit I'll start a group I'll repeat part of it and we're going to start it with intentionality we're going to create the group that models what we're supposed to be doing in small group life.

[00:34:41] There it up to your life because it reminds me so okay let's go into a two minute overtime here.

[00:34:46] I remember Gina y'all's girl she is some where at Hillcress Park she starts a Sunday school class in the hallway where the coffee pot was and I remember saying to her and I said what curriculum are you using she goes I'm not using any.

[00:35:04] I'm like you can't do it that way what do you know I was supposedly doctor Sunday school I was doctor losing what I was and she's like I wait till everybody gets there I get the guys who are late the young people come they liked that big area she was smart she sets it up near the snacks and the coffee pot and she said this she said I wait till they get there and then I say how was your week.

[00:35:29] And she said I listen for where somebody gives a challenge that they're facing and then she would open the Bible and get focused on encouraging them. She started a group in the hallway man.

[00:35:42] That's it that's what you do wherever you need to people to say we don't have room we don't have space right anyway that's it that's a good overtime.

[00:35:53] Amen brother well listen guys thanks for tuning into the stoic of podcasts we're going to be back next week with a.

[00:36:00] Another angle on from preaching to small groups now we're going to take it even smaller and we're going to talk to you about those disciple groups some column D groups I would call it one on one disciple making with new believers we're going to have a conversation about that but until then we'll see you next week can it I'll see you then man sounds great have a great week.