Spiritual Formation in the Black Church

[00:00:02] Welcome to the STOKE IT UP podcast everybody, appodcasting, curdying you in your journey with God. I am Alan Stoddard and I'm your co-host kind of priest who will join me in a moment And we have the pleasure today to have a conversation with an amazing man of God

[00:00:21] Christian follower of Jesus Christ, Wayne Cooper, doctor, Wayne Cooper He just graduated from Talbot's seminary, this tentacle, the school of theology, Talbot At Biola University and I noticed the title of his dissertation And I thought that's interesting. He did a dissertation on spiritual formation in the Black Church

[00:00:48] Now, an interesting development since we recorded this podcast I noticed on Wayne's Facebook page he says this after reading my dissertation And the curriculum that I submitted, the director then submitted a request to the assistant director

[00:01:03] of the doctor ministry program, to add me as a member of the teaching staff during the cohorts at Biola And he says I learned today that the request was approved, and quote, That's exciting. So we're going to jump in in a conversation on spiritual formation

[00:01:23] In the Black Church. Dr. Cooper is the pastor at Lincoln Avenue Christian Church in Pasadena, California. He leads fresh encounter ministries and he's just a brother beloved And we're excited to have him on the stoke up podcast today. Let's jump into the conversation.

[00:01:48] We would love to know what's forming you, spiritually in these days. Let's jump in. Let's get the conversation going. Let's stoke it up. All right. We are here with Dr. Wayne Cooper And Dr. Kenneth Priest to put some titles on you. Good men.

[00:02:08] Appreciate you guys. Good to talk to you this afternoon. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, Alan and Kenneth. I'm honored to be here and I hope to be able to share some good information. But it's always good to walk alongside you, Alan, as we have these conversations.

[00:02:27] Yeah. Amen. Amen. Appreciate you guys. Listen, we're still keeping people up And one of the things we're doing in this season is we're trying to discuss our minds and hearts wrapped around some things about spiritual formation. And for our listeners today, check this out.

[00:02:43] Our topic today is growing healthy churches in the black community through the introduction and implementation of spiritual formation and soul care. Now that's a huge topic. I know it is. But Dr. Wayne Cooper Wayne just graduated from Talbot's seminary and wrote his dissertation on this topic.

[00:03:05] I happened to see it in a thread conversation on Facebook as he was celebrating and people were celebrating his graduating and I thought that is an interesting topic for all of us. So I would love to pick his brain. So we decided to ask Wayne Cooper

[00:03:23] to come on and be a part of the Stoke It Up podcast. Wayne give us an idea of what spiritual formation it's so care mean and how are they essential to all of us. And then especially for what you found in your research on this topic

[00:03:39] for your doctoral work. Alright, well thank you Alan. So again, spiritual formation is a very insightful, very, I think a subject of a lot of debt because in the beginning as we were speaking, you know, not a lot of churches or seminaries,

[00:03:59] biocologist have a lot of experience in this feel and even one of the things that I learned was that there would be some people even within the body of Christ who would even question the concept of spiritual formation.

[00:04:16] They would probably say well there's really nothing in the Bible that distinguishes that subject from things like, you know, discipleship or another term sometimes use spiritual direction and by the way I want to make a distinction between those three

[00:04:35] in a moment. But let me just start out with what I believe is just a basic definition and I know you gentlemen probably obviously knows it. So I would say that spiritual formation is the process of being informed to the image of Jesus Christ

[00:04:57] for the glory of God and for the sake of others. And so when you think about it, here's a script of foundation for that. Second Corinthians chapter three, verse 17, 13 Paul speaks about it there. Another way of saying it is that

[00:05:17] spiritual formation is defined as a process that the believer undergoes that causes him or her to be completely changed and transformed into the likeness of Jesus. Okay? Specifically spiritual formation is really a graduate and ongoing process wherein the individual experiences transformation

[00:05:48] into Jesus' image from intentionally and honestly seeking God's faith. So that's in terms of a basic definition, that's how I would probably say it now. In terms of why that it is essential, let's start with spiritual formation because I'll break them down between spiritual

[00:06:09] formation and so on. So why they are essential for the health and growth of churches in the black community and really for any community. I would say that this refers to the intentional because the only way that true transformation can take place

[00:06:26] and has to be an intentional ongoing process of growth and maturity in one spiritual life. Okay? So what does it involve someone as well? It involves various activities, practices and experiences designed to shape and to develop a person's relationship with the Lord

[00:06:50] and as I mentioned earlier, they're understanding of themselves and they're placed in the world. So that's dealing with spiritual formation. Now, so care and spiritual formation are closely related in that but so care, I think focus is more on nurturing the

[00:07:15] inner life or the essence of a person. Of course, we know that's called the soul. So when we think about that, that involves tending to the spiritual, emotional and psychological aspects of oneself to promote health, healing and growth. Now I want to say this,

[00:07:40] Alan and Kenneth, there are three other components to this, specifically from the black perspective. I think the three things has to do with looking at it from a historical perspective, maybe through a community building and then ultimately

[00:08:03] through empowerment and liberation. So let's take a look at the historical part. Now, the interesting thing about the black church, black churches in general throughout the history, black churches have really served as sinners. I would say spiritual and social upliftment providing refuge solidarity and

[00:08:33] and really a sense of purpose in the face of oppression. And so spiritual formation is so care, I central for maintaining and strengthening this legacy, I believe. Okay? And so that's that part. Now in the community building aspect of things, spiritual formation and so care, really

[00:09:00] fosters a sense of community and belonging within black churches. Okay? Really providing spaces for individuals to come together to share their experiences and to support one another. And so this gives a sense of community and is crucial because it combat feelings of isolation,

[00:09:27] alienation and promoting a sense of unity and solidarity. Okay? So I see it from that perspective and then finally from the empowerment and liberation, spiritual formation and so care in powers individuals within the black community, really to reclaim their agency, their voice and dignity in the face of

[00:09:56] systemic oppression. Okay? So by nurturing the spiritual and emotional well-being individuals are well equipped to advocate for justice, the challenge in inequities and then work towards the liberation of themselves as well as their communities.

[00:10:21] Now I want to do some real quick here. I want to, I want to, before we go through, I want to make a distinction because I think it's worth hearing. I want to make a distinction between spiritual formation, spiritual direction and discipleship.

[00:10:38] Because when I was interviewing six pastors, one of the things we had to get through was to help them to understand that spiritual formation and discipleship while they're certainly connected, they are not one in the

[00:10:56] same. And so, so for starters then, just kind of going back to the definition, spiritual formation really refers to the process of shaping and deepening one's relationship with the Lord, alright? And so it involves what intentional practices, disciplines and experiences aimed at nurturing spiritual growth, maturity

[00:11:26] and transformation. Now, spiritual direction because we hear that a lot and when I was in the program we actually had a semester whereby we had to go through, we had a mentor, someone who took us through the process of spiritual

[00:11:44] direction and so basically spiritual direction is a form of guidance and companionship provided by a trained spiritual director or mentor to assist individuals in their spiritual journey. So, you know, the world sometimes when they talk about things they talk about a life coach, well, spiritual

[00:12:07] spiritual direction again is a form of guidance and companionship. Provided by a trained spiritual director or mentor to assist individuals in their spiritual journey and then, of course, the discipleship is that process of following and learning from a spiritual leader or guide to become

[00:12:32] more like them and embody their teachings. And of course, as followers of Jesus that person to us obviously is that we want to become more like Jesus and we want to embody his teachings. And so I thought I should make the distinction

[00:12:48] between those three items because sometimes when people don't know they just assume that spiritual formation, spiritual direction and the discipleship are all one in the same but clearly they're not. Man, that's a nice good. Yeah, that's all good. So let me ask a follow up there Dr. Cooper.

[00:13:11] I want to kind of maybe even go back a little bit on the context and in the history of this. Looking at spiritual formation and so care of course coming out of the black church has always been seen and known as a more spiritually

[00:13:30] engaged church. In fact, when you hear people talking about the difference between a black church and an Anglo church usually that word spirit gets involved right? There's they feel more spiritual in the black church and even the songs they say

[00:13:46] well, we sing the spirituals in our church and focus on that. But when you start talking about these things that you're talking about in spiritual formation and so care, it sounds like a lot of small group, a lot of 101 emphasis

[00:14:03] and yet in many black churches the focus is on the pulpit. And so how have you seen this because I know this like said, it's a relatively new conversation that's happening. But how are you seeing this transition in the black

[00:14:20] church to have more of an awareness and concern for spiritual formation and for soul care when the pastors have been so focused on the pulpit side and not so much this direction, this guiding that you're talking about.

[00:14:39] Okay. Well, that's a very good question and I was warned that I've had to tackle. So let me say for starters, one of the things, let me say, one of the things that I think, well in history, I think the focus of the black church

[00:15:00] was significantly different mainly because of the grievances of the community. And so Kenny, when you were talking about the focus on the pulpit because the black church and the black community and large looked to the pulpit for direction and guidance

[00:15:25] and leadership as it related to how they deal with the systemic racism, you know oppression and a lot of the other matters that we're talking about now through a formation was not the focus. It was now what we call social justice. And so a lot of the pulpit,

[00:15:55] believe because there's often a saying in black churches that the pulpit needs to be prophetic and that was their way of preaching and talking about the issues that the black communities have gone through going all the way back from slavery to the present day.

[00:16:12] And so a lot of black pastors and I say unfortunately never got in touch with the spiritual formation side of things. I think that a lot of them did not understand that yes, while it is true that their community suffered

[00:16:36] endured a lot of systemic oppression and things then all of those things were real but I believe now in my research that I think that the black church probably still should have focused

[00:16:52] on the spiritual development and maturation and growth of the people because I do believe for some churches they'd not grown beyond that. That is still a thing where when a pastor gets up,

[00:17:13] that's pretty much going to be the content of substance of his sermon is about what, you know, the black community has had to endure. What she is continually enduring and while, you know, I want to respect people and in their community and what they deal with,

[00:17:33] I just believe there's so much more to our community than just talking about our grievances and dealing with social injustices. I think those things have a place but I think that now what my focus is is to help young pastors

[00:17:54] to get focus on spiritual formation and so care. So that the community can begin to get spiritually healthy and that the people can grow and then their relationship with the Lord can deepen and their connection with the Lord

[00:18:15] can become more present whereby they are no longer focused on about what someone is doing but that they're more focused on what God is doing and mainly is the fact that Christ is being formed in there. So that's kind of my focus now.

[00:18:34] I think it's really good and you're bringing up some great, great conversation. I think Alan and I talk about this a lot because we both believe in sermon based, small group and so it works really great in the black church because of the

[00:18:47] pulpit side that focus on the pulpit but then what you're bringing in is this let's move them from not just the pulpit conversation but engage in this spiritual formation, soul care conversation and just partners so well together. I love to hear you say that. Yes, absolutely.

[00:19:06] Wayne, I don't know if you know this story but the short of the story is at Cornerstone which for our listeners is a mega black church in Arlington, Texas, I used to be on staff there with Dwight McKinsey and I led a young adult

[00:19:24] school class and I told my wife I said I don't want to leave that class then black folks don't want us in there. You know what

[00:19:31] I'll talk about my wife is like I had to talk out of it and then three weeks later she was like no two weeks later she was like we're doing it the Lord's in it man we went in there and it was the most amazing group of people

[00:19:45] we started getting to know them and we actually started we went from a Sunday school class on campus. We went from like 18 we had 50 people in at one time and we started a small group at our house

[00:20:00] and I guess what I'm going to tell you that story to ask this question what we realized was in the black church the pulpit is king and we agree with that so the question is are you seen in your research or in your experience

[00:20:19] is there a shift within younger African black folks is there a shift in African American culture in church culture towards a desire for more spiritual formation than the pulpit

[00:20:37] especially among young people maybe are you seeing that I saw it at cornerstone in those days but I haven't been around at that close sense.

[00:20:45] Well I think there is now some of it has to do with the pastors and a lot of it know the training they've had where they went to school I would say this what I'm seeing is now I'm seeing a couple of things among younger pastors

[00:21:02] but directly to your question I do see younger pastors desiring to know more about that because what I'm seeing Alan is that young black pastors are all seem to be interested in multi-cultural churches and in multi-cultural churches you I don't think you can succeed

[00:21:33] if all your focus is on grievances and social justice so a lot of the younger black pastors realizing that while there may have been a time for the pulpit to be known for that particular area now because they have people from different ethnic groups

[00:21:56] people are all walks of life different experiences they are now focusing more on spiritual formation and so care it's about connecting with the Lord connecting with one another and really networking so that there could be a true sense of community

[00:22:16] you know because I think that's one of the things the church likes sometimes we don't really have a true sense of community and so I think younger pastors are really fostering atmospheres where spiritual formation can take place and of course be taught

[00:22:35] and you know and the people can come together round that focus as opposed to all the pastors who come from a different generation

[00:22:47] let's talk about that for just a moment not to Cooper on these challenges because you've actually brought up a very good dynamic and that's the issue of the black church

[00:22:58] as well as the multicultural church and so there are some distinct challenges within both of those contacts for addressing spiritual formation and so care

[00:23:10] what are you seeing are the challenges that are unique to just the black church and then maybe juxtaposed that against the challenge in that multicultural environment

[00:23:22] because we see that in the multicultural churches as well because dealing with those and doing that but you bring that unique perspective of the black church specifically so talk to us about the challenges other than this transition of you know pulpit and moving to

[00:23:40] to more focus on the individual or small group mindset that comes with it but there's other challenges that have to exist for this to take place so tell us a little bit about that.

[00:23:52] Okay thank you yeah so so first of all I think the obvious challenge when you introduce spiritual formation into a church particularly a predominantly black church

[00:24:09] you need to be prepared that obviously this is a this is a new concept all together it is it is a new concept because spiritual formation

[00:24:22] I can tell you this growing up as a preacher I mean well I'm coming as a young person and then becoming a minister in my 20s I never in my life ever heard of the concept of spiritual formation.

[00:24:34] I never heard of it now I imagine that's probably two of my white brothers and sisters and you know Hispanics and Latinos whatever but

[00:24:43] in my community I never heard a pastor ever mentioned that so for starters I think you have to you have to really be intentional about introducing this concept which the church is an obviously familiar and then there's something else and closer related to that.

[00:25:06] There also has to be some biblical literacy and sometimes that is a challenge because it's one thing to say I know the Bible when it comes to the basic things of the faith but what about those other matters like we're talking about spiritual formation

[00:25:26] but does the Bible say about that does the Bible even address that so you have to there has to be some some biblical literacy I think there must be people in the church that has the ability to grasp the biblical and theological approach to this particular concept

[00:25:49] and then I think another challenge as relates to the black church is providing the appropriate resources and materials so that people can be taught what spiritual formation and so care is now.

[00:26:09] When you're talking about the multi-cultural church I don't want to assume this but my guess is some of the people from some of the other backgrounds so if you had Caucasian people perhaps some Latino maybe some Asians and Hispanics you may very well have people there who are familiar with the concept of spiritual formation that they may even come from a background

[00:26:40] that actually had that so that that won't be new for them but then now it's about how do you merge the two groups so to speak, how do you how do you say to the church as a whole we want to make sure that the church as a whole is

[00:27:00] passed in the understanding of spiritual formation and so care well I think from that perspective you probably have to kind of find out who is who is equipped enough to help in the teaching process because

[00:27:20] you got also remember that pastor may be very new to it himself and so he is still learning he is still growing it but he may very well help people in the congregation as a

[00:27:32] I can help out even we start with small groups we can help out in with that and to introduce spiritual formation to our brothers and sisters and then from there as people began to understand this new concept and begin to grow slowly but surely I think then you can have a beautiful picture of

[00:28:00] no of the of the different and various ethnic groups coming together and everybody understanding what we're talking about when we're talking about spiritual formation and so care yeah that is so good

[00:28:16] what would you say Wayne or some of the obvious things that you when you did as you've done the research you look back and you go this is what the black turds

[00:28:26] needs to do here's some obvious things and I know that this will relate to all churches but you found some specific things and it's good for us first of all who are not black to know these things first of all secondly it's good for us to know it because again it applies all of us so what did you find though that you need

[00:28:45] excuse me yeah well well let me take some take on my glasses and tell you something it has some humor to it

[00:28:53] and then and yet I understood it so I want to tell you this so I interviewed six pastors and they were from various places across the country well truthfully when I started out that was not my intention my intention was to interview loco pastors

[00:29:13] but here's the honest truth and speaking with them most of them told me they were honest enough to say I'm not the person to interview with this because I don't know enough about it

[00:29:28] I can't speak to it and you know I had a couple of people say hey you're studying for doctor degree you need to sound like you know what you're talking about

[00:29:38] and you know and I can't tell you anything because I don't really know about this subject and so that that's for me to have to say okay I'm gonna have to do what I didn't want to do

[00:29:48] and that is you know just a colon friends but I was strategic in this regard all of the guys that I I interviewed they all eat the biocologist seminary graduate and Alan one of is from your alma mater and Gordon Conwell and so

[00:30:12] and talking with them and kind of given them a preview about what I was going to discuss because one of the things just like you did with me

[00:30:20] I said them know some of the questions ahead of time you know just so to and see if that if that's something that they thought they could handle

[00:30:27] and you know and tackle pretty well and so fortunately they all wrote me back and said yeah I think we can deal with that

[00:30:35] and so so I would say one of the major challenges in the black church again and you have guys who are talented, gifted but many of them have never been exposed to spiritual formation because a great number of them particularly in my generation and my age group

[00:30:59] in the 60s certainly the men who are older than me and even some know who are younger maybe in their 50s a lot of them what they know more than anything else is to study to read the Bible to preach

[00:31:16] and have everything revolved around social grievances or social injustice. So to ask them to deal with this subject and to talk about it with any kind of depth is a major challenge so that's where I started that's where the challenge now tell me what else you was asking

[00:31:34] I want to make stuff but I was looking to I was just picking your brain and heart for the big things that stuck out to you as far as while this is a glaring hole one of them is you're saying if I'm hearing you right is that

[00:31:48] pastors within the black community specifically and I can tell you Kenneth and I can tell you that's I think it's going around everywhere the stakes make me a little higher is that the past year saying the pastors were ready to talk about it at all

[00:32:05] no, but they were not. They were not I was at least I was appreciative that you know because when you talking about interviewing someone

[00:32:15] and then you know here we get the recording going and then all of a sudden you know they didn't know so I was I was glad that I was going to be in quiet first because again I will admit spiritual formation is a new thing to me

[00:32:30] especially in the last three years in terms of what I've been exposed to. I had I have a heardest spiritual formation yes had I ever did any serious research about it how it should impact the churches

[00:32:48] no I probably would have been just satisfied with talking about this type of ship and thinking that this type of ship is everything that's spiritual formation is and of course it isn't but that's that's where I was back then

[00:33:05] yeah I would fall in that ladder category you just described Kenneth probably wouldn't ease absolutely things like this to me but I'm speaking for Kenneth but I've just recently heard about spiritual formation I know what it is

[00:33:21] but I haven't paid as much attention to it. I haven't had to impart because I'm a small group sky like I'm a preacher and love studying preaching of course but also a small group spaster and I think most pastors are not small groups

[00:33:39] I think they're not disciple making pastors right and so spiritual formation is going to be foreign to them. Yeah oh yeah why yeah yeah go ahead Ken.

[00:33:53] I was just going to say yeah these that you're talking about we talked about it you know pre our interview here but you know the the greats like Dallas Willard that really have dealt with spiritual formation and being familiar with their work

[00:34:08] and having read that for years you know and really engaged in those conversations of spiritual formation but you know when you start talking about it on the very practical how does this really play out in the life of the church

[00:34:24] so whether you're talking about the black church the multicultural church the English already doesn't just play out in the life of the church in general it really does take on a different challenge for pastors and ministers to consider how are we going to engage in this process

[00:34:43] in order to see it accomplished and so it kind of started with that in result if we want to talk about spiritual formation of what it is and you bring up second Corinthians 3 17 through 18 and you know you're talking about transforming the image of Christ at a Romans 12

[00:35:00] you know if we're going to talk about what spiritual formation is that's the goal that in result we then have to back up and say how do we move this congregation into a model that is reflective of a church that's actually doing spiritual formation

[00:35:20] so how is your research transformed your ministry and how do you see the practical application of your dissertation impacting other churches, especially in the black church to engage and see them transformed into congregations that actually take spiritual formation and soul care as a responsibility that that pastor has.

[00:35:49] Yeah well so let me start with my church so they they have been kind of really interested in what I've been studying these last three years

[00:35:58] and one of the things that we have made clear that I just wasn't you know going to school just to put some knowledge in my head but I really wanted to

[00:36:08] start the process of implementing you know I think most people would say probably within our educational program you know maybe a really good and effective you know.

[00:36:25] sense of what that is and I guess I'm talking about curriculum you know to put a curriculum in place and there are three areas that I see.

[00:36:36] So we're trying to go and I church it has to do with our edge for starters our educational program so one of the things that I plan to do because fortunately having that connection with Talbert I have people that I can call upon.

[00:36:54] and so Dr. Cole no he said hey just let him know a couple other people and so one of the things we're talking about is offering workshops.

[00:37:06] seminars, classes you know that are focused you know this on spiritual formation and soul care and and then of course we're going to cover these areas that involves with all that stuff like prayer you know meditation.

[00:37:23] just spiritual disciplines and things like that and then if we can get that built up because I will confess to you gentlemen you know it is new to my church and and the man in my church.

[00:37:38] you know in particular will probably be challenged with that now they're capable but but they'll have to really be intentional about saying.

[00:37:46] Let me leave some of the other stuff that I always known and learn down through the years now let me come into this new arena and so they have to kind of be intentional to say I'm willing to learn so they have to have some humility.

[00:37:59] from from those educational program then I think one of the things I church are starting to get into even now is we're probably kind of like late bloomers but small group ministries and so.

[00:38:14] from that we want to create the small group specifically dedicated to spiritual formation that's one of the things we're going to say.

[00:38:22] for right now for the for at least the next six months we don't want you dealing with nothing else but spiritual formation because I really want us to hunt down on what this is. and how this is supposed to impact us as far as of Christ and so.

[00:38:39] the goal is of course is to provide safe and supportive environments you know for members because part of spiritual formation is also again talking about your your life talking about your family culture talking about what you've been through you know who you are what has helped us shape you.

[00:39:00] and so people have to feel safe to be able to share those deep things when I was in seminary we had a day in which every student kind of had to give.

[00:39:13] if you want to say a background of themselves and yet to come up before the class and you had to talk about who you are and and because there was there was measurements that we had to go by that their professors gave us and we had it was very in I'm very in depth and I can tell you're.

[00:39:33] very uncomfortable at times where some of us we kind of had to pause a moment. we had to we had to really think about is this what I really want to share with this group of people.

[00:39:49] you know we had course men and women and up and it was some pretty deep stuff that came out and so spiritual formation in that regard.

[00:39:59] it helps you to connect with with with God and and then because there's that part that we learned this is a whole different subject but. you know just knowing God and then knowing that.

[00:40:14] he accepts us totally and completely as to who we are and where we are so in other words if I'm not everything that he wants me to be right now.

[00:40:27] God is still working on me and working you know with me as I continue to develop in my spiritual formation now Alan so that was the first part and you also want to know what what again the latter part.

[00:40:44] I can't remember okay well let me finish this that well and so and so so I think that's that the other thing is though no can it here's what it is can it was asking you what do you think it looks like in the future out of your dissertation you're just.

[00:41:03] Yeah you're unloading on that which is good I love this yeah well and then we finish up as one last time I'm a guest specifically so then of course.

[00:41:12] right now what I'm trying to do is provide resources meaning I really building up a library of sorts of you know things that speak.

[00:41:24] I'm going to be a little bit more difficult to spread your formation so I have a lot of stuff from three years of study but now I have to try to implement it so that. people can understand so that's why we've given our church.

[00:41:39] all by the end of the year to put a good program in place a curriculum so that our whole. Department of Education can revitalize what we do and what I focus is because right now the the curriculum that we have are stuff that other people have written.

[00:42:01] and it's good stuff is good stuff but it's not it's not dealing specifically with spiritual formation but to can he's problem how I hope to use that. So I got a couple of things that's as we say fires in the fires in the fire.

[00:42:20] for starters I mean this was a good this was a good opening. Yeah this this is good I appreciate you guys are thirsty I'm going to be talking with a woman who is considered in the black community.

[00:42:36] one of the if not the leader in the area spiritual formation and Dr Barbara peacock so Barbara peacock so that you gentlemen will know. has during the course of the year I think to maybe three I think there are two week long seminars on spiritual formation.

[00:42:57] so she invites different people in and and so I have a classmate who's good friends with her and so she was the one who introduced us know Dr peacock and myself.

[00:43:10] so Dr peacock once we're going to zoom talk on Thursday from there Dr kidding one of the things I want to do is I want to also. network with other pastors like pastors because I know quite a few.

[00:43:28] one of the big conferences Alan you may be familiar with because your connection with Dwight is the I see three conference with Dr. Rath West.

[00:43:37] Yeah Houston I already have a text from a former member of my church who's now a member of his church and she's she's on that committee for the I see three and so when she learned about graduated and learned.

[00:43:52] Wow when I when I graduated in she asked me to send. you know some information about my dissertation because she wants to present it to Dr West and to the committee so at some point I don't know when.

[00:44:08] she's she's going to present it so that maybe I can do a presentation of that doing that conference but here is something I think is even bigger and we're people comes to fruition.

[00:44:22] Robert has a department called the black church studies department and there's a gentleman by the name of Dr love and so right now he's in his two weeks cohort.

[00:44:36] I didn't want to interrupt him while he's doing that but once this is over I'm going to meet with him and I'm going to talk with him about the possibility because he does have different you know.

[00:44:48] professors come on you know to help out doing those cohort and so I'm going to give him an opportunity to read through my dissertation and then maybe see if I can partner with him.

[00:45:01] maybe even if it's just for one day during the cohort you know time to just talk about and introduce the concept of spiritual formation with the black leaders and then probably the biggest thing. I'm going to say that's what I'm planning on doing every year in June.

[00:45:19] In fact it'll be coming up here the week right up the fathers day the Monday after fathers day. The National Baptist Convention the USA Incorporated which is the largest African American convention.

[00:45:34] I'm going to contact their department of Christian education and I have friends who teaching that and so they are all excited about.

[00:45:44] Having my study my research introduced to that to that you talking about on average about 30,000 people that meet for week every every third week in June and so and then that same convention.

[00:45:59] I have their main convention in September so we're talking about what two to three months later and and so I'm going to also want to introduce it to the convention and large.

[00:46:11] To the president of the convention just to see what doors can open from that because I believe God wants to use this and I just want to make sure I can put this. I'm sorry this I'm dissertation right hands.

[00:46:26] I want y'all both to know let me ask you Kenny and Alan have you all heard a pro quest. Yes, yes it's a platform that's got to be books and journals and things well.

[00:46:40] The top of the system where about when you graduate from them your dissertation as a part of your graduation must be uploaded on that platform.

[00:46:50] Yes, so my platform for my dissertation was uploaded on that so I'm hoping that that will also begin to spread and so from that I'm hoping to be able to use that.

[00:47:03] And and maybe impact my ministries started with the local church and then seeing what God does know from there. That's so good we need to get just perfect it connected with some others that need to hear about this so we'll definitely be 40 this podcast to them.

[00:47:24] We appreciate you coming on today Wayne we could keep going but I need to land the plane for the stoke of podcasts today.

[00:47:33] I feel like we need to have you back on in a couple of months or something to get like an update also you know count us in for any small group kind of involvement we can have we would love to be a part of that.

[00:47:48] Also, it's a separate conversation but really you need to figure out. Kenneth did it for us but you need to figure out how to get your dissertation converted into a book but that's a separate conversation for a moment.

[00:48:04] You know this the system direct to our program after this cohort is over he and I going to sit down and talk about that very thing.

[00:48:13] Yeah, that's exciting we pray that your your dissertation and will have a lot of longevity in the years ahead Kenneth and I have been really blessed to have our doctoral dissertations.

[00:48:28] And we're part of our lives since we've graduated as I said earlier it's probably paid for itself at this point but really the more important thing is.

[00:48:38] Keep it in the local church don't just do a dissertation and let it die man yeah I feel like yours is going to produce fruit so Wayne thank you for coming on today man. We appreciate you.

[00:48:52] Thank you so we are a part of the C.G.N. Media podcast network network that points people to Christ first Corinthians three verse 18 does say and we all with unveiled face beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the image of into the same image it from one degree of glory to another.

[00:49:17] For this comes from the Lord who is the spirit we want you to know that God has a plan for your life if you have not received Christ we would encourage you to do that of course.

[00:49:27] We assume most of our listeners know the Lord but we also want to remind you that spiritual formation isn't a discussion just for today God's forming you into his image and he's got things he wants you to be doing.

[00:49:39] To help others walk with Christ also so God bless we'll see you next time on the stoic at a podcast everybody. Bless.