Q&A: Divine Justine & The Fear of Hell?

[00:00:00] Question. How do we as Christians confront the daunting

[00:00:05] specter of hell without allowing fear to eclipse the radiant hope found in Christ? And how do

[00:00:10] we reconcile that fear with divine justice, understanding that hell wasn't meant for us,

[00:00:15] yet some still end up there? Today is a segment we call Ask Good Lion, where we journey

[00:00:21] deep into these questions, daring to shine a light into the shadows.

[00:00:25] First, we explore how to navigate the terror of hell without being paralyzed by it, while

[00:00:31] firmly grasping the boundless hope of Jesus' mercy and love. Then, we delve into the heart

[00:00:36] of divine justice. If hell wasn't made for humans, how do some arrive there? And what role do our

[00:00:42] choices play in this cosmic narrative? Join us as we wrestle with these challenging topics.

[00:00:49] Here's your host, Pastor Aaron Salvato. You're listening to The Good Lion podcast.

[00:00:59] Hey everyone, thanks for listening to The Good Lion podcast. This is Aaron Salvato. I am the

[00:01:05] director of Good Lion Ministries and the Good Lion School of Discipleship and one of the hosts

[00:01:09] of this podcast. Right now we are about to jump into a little bit of Q&A, which I love

[00:01:15] for me personally if it weren't for people in my life being willing to grapple and wrestle

[00:01:22] through questions with me, I would not be where I am with Jesus today. Now I know the

[00:01:27] topic we've been discussing on this episode is a really, really heavy one and so I just want to

[00:01:32] do my best to engage with some of these questions. So let's go ahead and jump right in. All right,

[00:01:44] here's the first question. Hey Aaron, love the episode. Thank you. Thank you. I am curious

[00:01:50] when we discuss hell as a destination, how do we as Christians navigate the fear that comes

[00:01:58] with it without letting it overshadow the hope found in Christ? Does the fear of hell ever overwhelm

[00:02:04] you personally? Man, thank you for that question. That's a great question. I think hell, man,

[00:02:09] it's a topic that is just wrapped up in a lot of mystery and a lot of fear and in some ways

[00:02:16] that makes sense. We're talking about eternal destinations and also we're talking about

[00:02:23] realms that would not exist if not for rebellious demonic fallen angels. And so yeah, I mean,

[00:02:33] it makes sense that there's some fear there, that's some scary stuff. But my encouragement

[00:02:39] to you would be the central message of Christianity is not fear but it's hope. It's the radical

[00:02:46] life changing hope that's found in Jesus. Fear in its proper place when it comes to

[00:02:52] hell. It can serve as a guidepost, like a pointer that helps us recognize the gravity of sin and

[00:02:59] the holiness of God. But I don't think it's meant to paralyze us. I think it's meant to drive us

[00:03:05] to the shelter of God's mercy because the gospel of Jesus is so beautiful that it outshines

[00:03:12] the shadow of fear with the brightness of hope. The reality is Jesus himself spoke more about

[00:03:20] hell than anyone else in the scriptures, not to cause us fear but to warn us out of love and to

[00:03:27] lead us to safety. He's like the shepherd who sees the cliff that the sheep are about to walk off

[00:03:33] and he's like, no, no little sheepies stay away from that cliff. I'm going to talk about that

[00:03:39] cliff a ton and I'm going to tell you about what happens when you fall off that cliff,

[00:03:43] not because I'm this mean terrible sadistic shepherd who loves telling horror stories. No,

[00:03:49] it's because he loves his sheep and he doesn't want his sheep to walk off the cliff and dash

[00:03:55] themselves against the rocks. John 3.16 doesn't say, for God wanted to terrify the world into

[00:04:02] submission but for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him

[00:04:07] should not perish but have eternal life. Now for the question of like does the thought of hell

[00:04:14] overwhelm me? Yeah, at times it does because it's heavy and it's serious. For me personally, I'm so

[00:04:22] glad that I've moved from a place of fear when it comes to my own personal salvation. When I was

[00:04:29] a kid, when I was a chubby little pastor's kid, I was so scared of going to hell and any time

[00:04:36] I sinned I would be like, oh my gosh, am I even saved anymore and I would just continue

[00:04:41] to go up for altar calls again and again and again. And I'm so glad I've moved past that point.

[00:04:47] Like I understand the security I have in Christ and if you're here and you're a Christian, if

[00:04:52] you're listening, if you're a Christian, you should understand you are secure in Christ. So I do not

[00:04:58] fear hell for myself even at times when I sin, I do not fear hell for myself but I do fear

[00:05:06] hell for others because I do not want anyone to go there. Regardless of what it is, whether it's

[00:05:13] like eternal flames forever and ever, whether it's some weird strange godless existence in some

[00:05:22] strange nebulous realm, whether it's annihilationism, whatever it is, like I said in the episode,

[00:05:28] I truly believe that the greatest thing that we should be afraid of when it comes to hell

[00:05:35] is the idea of an existence separated from God, whatever that looks like. I don't want anyone in

[00:05:41] my family and my group of friends, even random people I meet on the street, I don't want them

[00:05:48] to have to face an eternity without God. So yeah, it's a heavy and serious thing

[00:05:55] and it should be for anyone who understands the implications. However, in my own spiritual

[00:06:00] journey, I've been finding a lot of peace in a non-calvinistic interpretation of the sovereignty

[00:06:08] of God and what I mean by that is I don't hold to double predestination. I don't believe that God

[00:06:16] made some people for heaven and some people for hell. I firmly disagree with that but I also

[00:06:21] believe that he has foreknowledge of everything that is going to happen and he knows everyone

[00:06:29] who will be saved. He's already got that figured out ahead of time and so I am trying to let go

[00:06:35] and trust him. I'm not putting the burden on myself to save people but rather I'm joyfully

[00:06:41] participating in the call to witness to others and the call to do things like what I'm doing

[00:06:48] right now, producing this podcast or teaching at the school discipleship. I'm trying to

[00:06:52] answer the call to point other people to Jesus and away from hell which I think every

[00:06:57] Christian should do. We should answer that call but I'm also trusting God and taking my hands off

[00:07:03] the wheel and saying ultimately you are in control and I can trust you that this work is going to be

[00:07:08] done and I'm just participating in what you're already doing so I find a lot of comfort in that.

[00:07:14] All right let's go to the next question. All right this is an interesting one. In today's

[00:07:25] podcast you spoke about hell not originally being intended for humans but for fallen angels.

[00:07:33] This raises a big question for me. How do we reconcile this with the idea of divine justice?

[00:07:39] If hell wasn't made for us why do humans end up there? Okay that's a great question. We have to

[00:07:46] first understand the original intent. Hell as described primarily in the Christian tradition was

[00:07:52] indeed first mentioned as a place for the devil and his angels in Matthew 2541 so this suggests

[00:08:00] this was not something created for humans. That was not the goal in mind that was not in the blueprints.

[00:08:06] It was this realm meant to be of ultimate separation for those angelic beings who rebelled

[00:08:12] against God's sovereign rule but then the human connection comes when we see in the narrative

[00:08:18] of scripture there's this story unfolding where human beings through their own choices

[00:08:24] align themselves with the rebellion of these fallen angels even without saying it through

[00:08:30] their actions they're basically pledging allegiance to the enemy so by choosing to act against God's

[00:08:36] intentions humans in a way are writing their own invitation to a place not originally meant for them.

[00:08:43] Now as I say that that can sound kind of cruel so let me kind of phrase it this way

[00:08:48] and I've said this on other episodes before but think of it in the sense of quarantine.

[00:08:52] If you're watching a zombie movie there's this common trope of infection and it's this idea of like

[00:09:00] if you are infected with the zombie disease there is no hope for you. Like if you're

[00:09:07] watching a movie and the main character is out in some post-apocalyptic field hiding out from the

[00:09:13] zombies with his wife and his best friend and his children if in that movie a zombie comes up

[00:09:21] and bites his best friend well then what happens is his best friend turns into a zombie and starts

[00:09:29] trying to kill the family. The best friend is infected to a point of no return and actually

[00:09:37] it's not in the sense of like oh his best friend is trapped inside the zombie body and we have to

[00:09:43] free him they're in these zombie movies usually there's there's no cure it's just you are

[00:09:48] if you are bit by a zombie even though you're still moving and you're lunging around and trying to

[00:09:53] find brains you know it's like you're dead you are dead and you are already gone and so

[00:10:00] what the main character has to do is he has to either grab a shotgun and blow his best friend

[00:10:06] away or lock his best friend in a cellar or do something to keep his former best friend away

[00:10:14] from his family and it's not seen as cruel and usually the main character his heart is broken

[00:10:20] he's like he's weeping he's crying because he's looking at the lifeless zombie shell of his former

[00:10:26] best friend and thinking i wish i could have saved you i wish i could have helped you

[00:10:31] but now you're too far gone in the same way when it comes to the end of the story of the

[00:10:37] bible and of scripture and of human history when we reach the point of the new heaven

[00:10:42] and the new earth it is going to be a perfect place that is sinless and so anybody with sin

[00:10:50] is infected with that zombie disease and the only option is to quarantine them

[00:10:57] and cut them off and keep them away from god's kingdom and god's family and it's it's absolutely

[00:11:05] heartbreaking especially because in the sense of humans it's not just oh we got bit by the

[00:11:10] sin zombie our choices like we have participated in this we are guilty of sin i guess you could

[00:11:18] argue when you go back to adam yeah we didn't really have a choice like like adam infected us so

[00:11:24] yeah thanks adam for that but even through that infection we still willingly participate in

[00:11:30] this disease now the difference between real life and the zombie movie is that in jesus we have

[00:11:37] a cure there is a cure on the table and we are able to take it there's nothing stopping us but if we

[00:11:45] refuse to take the cure then we are infected zombies and the only choice god has and the only

[00:11:53] just thing god can do in the sense of protecting his family like it is just to protect your family

[00:12:01] it is justice to keep disease and infection and zombie hordes from attacking your family but yeah

[00:12:09] it but it is heartbreaking that's the challenging thing about these conversations about justice and

[00:12:13] mercy it's like our hearts go yes god thank you for your justice but then our hearts break

[00:12:20] because we realize that if it were not for god's mercy we ourselves would be just as deserving of

[00:12:27] getting locked out it's about viewing god's justice not merely as a system of punitive measure it's

[00:12:33] it's about restoration of right order justice in its true sense is about setting things right

[00:12:40] so if hell is the consequence for choosing a path away from god then divine justice shows us

[00:12:46] that everyone ends up where their choices have led them but it's so important to recognize the

[00:12:53] mercy and the grace of jesus the offering of jesus's redemption for humanity it shows that god is

[00:13:01] he is mad about us he loves us he has this insane desire that nobody would have to choose

[00:13:09] the path of separation i love what pastor josh white says god was not content to live in a

[00:13:15] world without you and so he died so that you might live with him it's beautiful it's absolutely

[00:13:23] beautiful thank you for joining us on another episode of the good lion podcast as we reflect on

[00:13:36] today's journey through the challenging concepts of fear hope and divine justice let's hold fast

[00:13:42] to the promises that guide us through the shadowed valleys in Psalm 27 we're reminded the

[00:13:48] lord is my light and my salvation whom shall i fear the lord is the stronghold of my life

[00:13:54] of whom shall i be afraid let these words serve as an anchor for our hearts in every moment of

[00:14:00] uncertainty they invite us to stand firm in the light of christ trusting that his love will

[00:14:05] dispel all fears in our discussions today we've explored the tension between the fear of hell

[00:14:11] and the radiant hope offered by jesus may the gospel message of love and grace remind us that

[00:14:17] fear need not paralyze us but instead drive us into the shelter of god's mercy where we are welcomed

[00:14:23] and embraced when pondering the complexities of divine justice we come face to face with a truth

[00:14:29] that both humbles and encourages that while choices do have eternal implications god's mercy is

[00:14:35] always within reach as followers of christ may we trust that the one who knows us fully also

[00:14:41] loves us deeply and is leading us toward restoration so keep asking questions keep seeking understanding

[00:14:48] and keep trusting in the redeeming love that outshines all fears walk boldly in the truth

[00:14:54] that the lord is your light and your stronghold until next time may the assurance of god's

[00:14:59] grace embolden your steps and renew your spirit