How Do Hell Debates Effect Our Spirituality? - GoodLion Theology

[00:00:00] Welcome to GoodLion Theology where we answer questions from listeners like you.

[00:00:06] Our goal is to take on your hard questions and dig deep into the big issues of faith,

[00:00:11] always pointing to the God who is not safe but is very good.

[00:00:15] In today's episode, Aaron tackles a heartfelt question about how the intense debates on hell

[00:00:20] have impacted his spiritual journey. He breaks down the challenging ways debates and differing

[00:00:25] views on hell can challenge our faith and our theological thinking. We take a hard look at

[00:00:31] how these ideas go beyond the theology of hell to impact how we view God's love and grace.

[00:00:36] How do we reconcile the unsettling thought of being separated from God's love with the reality of

[00:00:41] his endless grace? Can images of flames and darkness overshadow the deeper loss of missing

[00:00:47] out on the joy and abundance of God's kingdom? Aaron will guide us through these challenging

[00:00:52] waters, recommending a book that thoughtfully explores these questions. Despite the heated

[00:00:57] debates around hell, we're here to offer you some hope and encouragement. No matter our

[00:01:02] perspective, God's grace is a wide open invitation to a life full of love, peace,

[00:01:07] and a future where tears and sorrow no longer exist. You're listening to The GoodLion Podcast.

[00:01:12] Let's dive in.

[00:01:17] Alright, so to start out with, I am going to address the elephant in the room. And that is

[00:01:25] who was that guy doing the introduction for the episode? My buddy Johnny Zacchio and I were

[00:01:33] texting recently. By the way, Johnny was on a great episode of the show. A few episodes

[00:01:40] back, you should check that out. We talked about doubt and deconstruction. But yeah,

[00:01:45] getting back to the question, who was that strange British man? Johnny was texting me and he was like,

[00:01:52] bro, was that just you doing a British accent? And I was like, no, that would be weird.

[00:02:01] That would be weird if I was doing a British accent. If I was like, hello everyone,

[00:02:08] welcome to The GoodLion Podcast. Yes, indeed. I don't know why I just slip into my scar from

[00:02:16] the Lion King voice. Simba, it's to die for. By the way, I am actually a professional

[00:02:26] voice actor now. So you can check the show notes for a link to some of the stuff I've

[00:02:32] been working on. I've been working on a project. I've been working on several projects

[00:02:38] for Pray.com. I've been doing biblical audio dramas and playing all types of characters like

[00:02:45] Jesus and Satan and God and Joseph and really just tons of characters from across the biblical

[00:02:54] stories. It's been wild, like somebody who grew up on Adventures in Odyssey and listening to

[00:03:02] audio dramas and stories my whole life. It was always a dream to be able to do it. And

[00:03:08] yeah, God has opened up the door recently for me to get involved with that. So if you'd like

[00:03:12] information on some of the voice acting I've been doing, you can check the link in the show notes

[00:03:18] for that. But yeah, getting back to the strange mystery man. So that's actually a robot.

[00:03:24] I call him Reggie Reginald. He is a artificial intelligence

[00:03:30] announcer for the show. And if you know me, you'll probably won't be surprised. I'm a massive nerd.

[00:03:39] The thought of building a robotic announcer and intro outro guy for the show, that's just stuff

[00:03:45] that if you told me I would have been able to do that like five years ago, it would have

[00:03:50] absolutely blown my mind. But here we are. Yeah, I am in the busiest season of my life that I've

[00:03:57] ever been in as a husband, as a father, as someone running an independent ministry and as somebody

[00:04:04] who is running their own business. It's just a lot. And so I love this show. This show is really

[00:04:11] important to me. I want to prioritize this show. But I'm at the point where I have to do

[00:04:16] almost everything on this show on my own. And so I was just like, I do not want to record

[00:04:22] intros and outros to every episode, especially if it's just me on the episode. So my 2024 solution

[00:04:31] is Reginald, the robotic British announcer. And for some of you, you'll probably think that's

[00:04:37] cool. For others of you, you might think that's odd. I throw myself at the mercy of the

[00:04:43] digital court of public opinion. My goal is I just want to focus on the content of the show.

[00:04:51] And so that's what I'm doing. All right, how's that for an intro? Let's get into some questions.

[00:04:59] Recently, we have been doing several episodes on the concepts of sin and hell. And recently

[00:05:07] we put out an episode a few episodes back that was about the true terror of separation from God,

[00:05:15] the reality that no matter what hell is, whether you believe in eternal conscious torment or

[00:05:22] annihilationalism or conditionalism, my big thesis on that episode was that it is the

[00:05:30] separation from God that is the most compelling thing about hell because as humans, our

[00:05:37] souls were designed for intimacy with God. That's truly like what gives us purpose and

[00:05:44] passion and fulfillment in life. And in this life, we struggle through our imperfect state,

[00:05:50] but we're longing for the day where we will be fully reunited with Jesus, with God, with our

[00:05:56] Creator. And to me, that's the most true tragedy of hell is a life without that longing

[00:06:04] fulfilled and existence cut off from the Creator. And so we had several questions on that topic.

[00:06:11] Here's one that came in. Erin, thank you for the episode. I appreciate both the theological depth

[00:06:17] and the compassion that you brought to the episode. Oh, awesome. Thanks. Love to hear that.

[00:06:23] She goes on regarding the debates about the literal versus the metaphorical interpretations

[00:06:29] of hell. What has been the most challenging aspect of these discussions for you? And how have they

[00:06:35] impacted your faith journey? Man, that's a great question. I would say the debates around the

[00:06:41] literal versus metaphorical interpretations of hell have been challenging for me personally,

[00:06:48] not just because of the theological complexity, but because of like the implications that

[00:06:54] those views carry. Like for many, the idea of hell, it can really like conjure up this Dante-like

[00:07:02] vision of fire and brimstone and infernos, this grim dungeon, this torture chamber.

[00:07:09] And it gets sad. Like when you think of the implications, like if you think of people that

[00:07:15] you know, friends or even family members that don't know Jesus, it can feel like one day in

[00:07:21] the future, we're all just going to be celebrating as one big happy family in the new heaven and earth.

[00:07:27] But then Jesus is going to take these people, people that matter to us and he's just going to

[00:07:32] toss them into the incinerator. I think it's one of the most troubling and challenging aspects

[00:07:39] of the entire faith, this idea of an afterlife that is not heavenly but is actually hellish.

[00:07:48] And my advice to you listening is don't let the discomfort about hell push you away from

[00:07:56] grappling with the reality of it. Jesus himself seems to have some very serious thoughts about

[00:08:04] hell. When he speaks about it, he uses the word Gehenna, which was a term that pointed to this

[00:08:11] burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. And so for Jesus, it was this metaphorical image

[00:08:18] where he's pointing to this burning smoldering garbage dump that is outside of the city of

[00:08:25] Jerusalem. It's outside of the kingdom. And I truly believe he's trying to warn people

[00:08:30] saying, Hey, if you choose to reject the invitation to the kingdom, the only place left

[00:08:39] only place left to go is this place that is a not good place. And that's where the challenging

[00:08:46] questions come in, because when we read Jesus' words, we have to ask how much of what he said

[00:08:52] was literal and how much was metaphors? Is hell a place? Is hell a place of actual fire?

[00:08:59] Or is the fire a symbol for something deeper? One thing that struck me just in my own studies

[00:09:06] was I heard a talk by Tim Mackey on this subject, and I don't know if I'm fully on the same page with

[00:09:12] Tim on his interpretations, but he is brilliant. And I agree with so much of what he has to say

[00:09:18] in general about a lot of things. But like I said in previous episodes, I am done drawing hard

[00:09:24] lines about this topic and acting like these debates are worth dividing over. Like I said,

[00:09:30] I agree with Tim Keller when he says, if the flames are a metaphor, they are a metaphor for

[00:09:36] something much worse than flames. It's not about minimizing hell, but we can wrestle.

[00:09:42] And so going back to what Tim said, Tim Mackey was talking about flame imagery and how there's

[00:09:48] a lot of debates about the flames of hell. And he used this analogy where he talked

[00:09:53] about his wife and he was like, yeah, so if I say my wife is a big ball of fire, you understand

[00:10:00] when I say that I'm not literally saying she's engulfed in flames and she exists completely

[00:10:09] as a raging element of nature. Like, no, you understand what I'm saying. I'm using vivid

[00:10:18] imagery to paint a picture. And so what he actually means when he says his wife is a ball of fire

[00:10:23] is that his wife is passionate, his wife has a lot of energy, his wife can get fiery at times,

[00:10:30] she can get really heated up in a conversation. And so just because she's not literally a ball

[00:10:36] of fire doesn't take away the impact of the words. And so that's a place I've kind of

[00:10:43] landed. When I think about the flames, it very well could be literal flames. Maybe it's a metaphor.

[00:10:49] But regardless, there is something at the end of the road for those of us who do not follow Jesus

[00:10:56] that is going to be painful in the same way that none of us would want to spend eternity

[00:11:03] on fire and burning. Whatever hell is the eternity spent there is going to be literally as

[00:11:11] terrible as being on fire or it is going to be an experience that is not literal fire,

[00:11:19] but it is the equivalent, an experience that is painful and uncomfortable and horrible

[00:11:27] to go through. An experience for those of us as Christians that we should desperately not want

[00:11:33] anyone to go through. And that's the heart of God as well. So I'm going to leave a link to

[00:11:37] this in the show notes, but a couple books that might be helpful for any of you that

[00:11:40] want to think through this issue are one skeletons in God's closet by Joshua Ryan Butler.

[00:11:47] Excellent read. I've mentioned that on a previous episode. The other one is going to be

[00:11:51] a racing hell by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle. And don't let the name fool you.

[00:11:57] The point of the book is not to erase hell from the Christian consciousness, but it's actually

[00:12:02] kind of a pushback against those that try to do that in the book. Chan and Sprinkle explore

[00:12:08] the concept of hell from both theological and biblical perspectives. They approach the topic

[00:12:14] honestly I think with a ton of humility and honesty. They acknowledge how hard these conversations

[00:12:21] are and how they can really mess with our idea and view of God, but the book is really helpful

[00:12:26] because it doesn't shy away from challenging questions. It dives into them. And more importantly,

[00:12:32] it dives into scripture. It gives a careful examination of what Jesus and the Apostles said

[00:12:38] about hell while also considering the historical and cultural context in which these teachings

[00:12:43] were delivered. I think it's great. I think it gives a thoughtful and compassionate perspective

[00:12:48] on how our understanding of hell can impact the way that we live out our faith.

[00:12:52] It fully acknowledges the tension between the literal and the metaphorical interpretations,

[00:12:57] but it also really urges readers to remember the broader mission of the gospel. So

[00:13:02] Erasing Hell, Francis Chan, Preston Sprinkle, I would recommend checking it out. But getting back

[00:13:09] to the question, I think I would say that what has challenged me the most is honestly the stark

[00:13:16] reality of what hell represents a life that is cut off from God. And this idea has really pushed

[00:13:24] me to grapple with the gravity of my choices and the kind of person that I want to become.

[00:13:32] If hell is about being removed from the source of love and life itself, like for me, yes, I am saved

[00:13:41] from a future hell. Thank God. Praise Jesus. That is incredible. But if hell is about being

[00:13:50] removed from the source of love and life itself, what choices am I making now that lead me away

[00:14:00] from the source of love and life itself? And that kind of goes back to the idea of when we talk

[00:14:05] about hell on earth. Like how many of you have ever heard the phrase like, oh, that guy just

[00:14:10] makes my life a living hell. A lot of times that statement is gross exaggeration. But in

[00:14:16] reality, like through our choices, we can make our life a living hell. Think about it from God's

[00:14:23] perspective. He's like, I died for you. I saved you. I love you. I bent over backwards to create

[00:14:30] this life that is full of goodness and joy and grace and mercy and peace. And yet you keep

[00:14:37] running to your sins. You keep running to your lusts, your passions, your addictions, your

[00:14:44] sexual brokenness. You keep running to all these things that you think will fulfill you,

[00:14:51] but they actually just leave you empty. When we do so, we are creating distance between us and God.

[00:14:58] And it's not because he's looking at our sin going, oh, you sinner, I can't be near you. No,

[00:15:04] that whole idea of God cannot be near sin. Like Jesus just blows that idea out of the water

[00:15:10] because the word became flesh and dwelt among us. He literally had dinners with tax collectors

[00:15:18] and prostitutes. It's insane for us to think that God cannot be near sinners. He's the God who came

[00:15:24] near and dwelt among us. But as Christians, when we turn to our sin, we are erecting these

[00:15:30] barriers and walls. We're trying to keep God at a safe distance so that we can focus on our

[00:15:38] sin. We're becoming what Dallas Willard calls vampire Christians, Christians who say, Jesus,

[00:15:44] I just want enough of your blood to save me, but then I want you to leave me alone and let me do

[00:15:51] whatever I want. So this conversation for me has forced me to look in the mirror and recognize

[00:15:57] the subtle ways that I might be creating a hellish environment through my actions. And

[00:16:04] it's also moved me to lean into the compassion of Jesus who doesn't desire for anyone to perish,

[00:16:11] but for everyone to come to repentance. That's what we see in 2 Peter 3, 9. Ultimately, these

[00:16:18] debates have deepened my understanding of grace. That's really what it comes down to. I think

[00:16:23] the debates are fascinating. I'm willing to continue to engage in them. But ultimately,

[00:16:29] what it comes back to is, no matter which way you slice it, a life of separation from God is a

[00:16:36] terrible life. Even if that means the destruction of the soul, the ending of life, it's still

[00:16:41] separation. It's a terrible fate. Just a quick note on that, right? There are people out there

[00:16:47] that are struggling, whether it's with anxiety or depression or frustrations about their life,

[00:16:56] and to the point where they want to end their own life. Or they're just like, I just wish I could

[00:17:02] die. I wish it could be over. In fact, on Sunday, my pastor Chad Puckett mentioned in his sermon

[00:17:09] about a woman who just recently opted to get euthanized and end her own life. And in her

[00:17:16] quote about why she was doing it, she was just like, I'm going through so much pain,

[00:17:21] so much suffering. And I really hope that once my life ends, there's nothing on the other side.

[00:17:29] And that statement to me is so tragic. The idea of the hope that there's nothing on the other side

[00:17:38] because somebody who expresses that to me, that is someone who is just looking at this

[00:17:44] current life and going, this is pain. I want this to be over. I don't want anything else.

[00:17:50] I just want to be gone. And to some extent, I can understand it. That's why after a long day,

[00:17:58] a long painful hard day, we just want to go to sleep at the end of the night, right?

[00:18:02] It like, I understand it. But here's the tragic thing about it. The reality is, the truth is

[00:18:09] that if you could talk to someone in pain and tell them that on the other side of this life,

[00:18:17] there is a door that opens to an experience of life where there is no more pain, no more sorrow,

[00:18:26] no more brokenness, no more hurt, no more tears, no more sickness, no more corruption,

[00:18:34] no more abuse, no more hatred, no more division. There is love. There is peace. There is

[00:18:43] goodness. There is life abundant. There is everything our souls have ever longed for and more on the

[00:18:53] other side of that door. That is the tragedy. If annihilationism is true, that is the great

[00:19:01] tragedy of it. And it is a terrifying tragedy to know that we have the potential to ascend

[00:19:10] to reach this point of a life that is perfect and peaceful and painless. And yet we have the

[00:19:18] opportunity to miss it. To me, that's almost more frightening than the idea of the flames. But that

[00:19:26] again brings me back to grace, the grace of the gospel that calls us away from a future without

[00:19:33] God and invites us into the abundant life of the kingdom, a place where God's will is done on

[00:19:41] earth as it is in heaven. Man, it is a tough idea to think through, but I appreciate you

[00:19:49] listeners thinking through it with me and hopefully these thoughts have been helpful.

[00:20:37] The troubling imagery of hell overshadow the joy and beauty of God's grace which beckons us all

[00:20:42] toward the richness of his kingdom. In John 14, 27, Jesus says, Peace I leave with you,

[00:20:49] my peace I give you, I do not give to you as the world gives, do not let your hearts be troubled

[00:20:54] and do not be afraid. May you find strength, clarity and deep encouragement in God's unwavering

[00:21:00] love as you reflect on this topic and seek to deepen your understanding of his kingdom.

[00:21:05] This podcast is a production of Good Lion Ministries, a ministry devoted to helping

[00:21:10] Christians practice the way of Jesus and fall more deeply in love with a God who is not safe

[00:21:15] but is very good. For more resources visit us at goodlion.org. Our ministry is made possible

[00:21:22] through the generous support of our donors. To help support our work, please visit

[00:21:26] goodlion.org slash support. Until next time, continue to seek truth, embrace grace and

[00:21:33] journey forward in faith. You're always welcome here on the Good Lion podcast.