Debate: Without the Serpent, Would Adam and Eve Still have Sinned? | Brian Higgins & Aaron Salvato

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome back to The GoodLion Podcast. Today's episode is a bit different.

[00:00:05] Brian and I are actually stepping into a rare moment of disagreement. I know, I know. Hardly ever

[00:00:11] happens once in a blue moon. Today we're exploring a fascinating question if the serpent hadn't

[00:00:16] entered Eden. Would Adam and Eve still have fallen into sin? It's a super interesting debate.

[00:00:22] I had a great time going back with Brian about it. And we're not just debating on this episode,

[00:00:26] but we're also delving into how our understanding of sin impacts our understanding of human nature,

[00:00:32] divine providence and the ever-present theme of redemption and grace. We're also going to share

[00:00:38] some stories and analogies about our kids which is always fun. This is our second episode in

[00:00:43] our series on understanding the nature of sin and hell. I hope it's thought provoking. I hope

[00:00:48] it's helpful. Let's dive into this next episode of The GoodLion Podcast.

[00:00:58] Here's an interesting question. Do you think if it wasn't for the serpent

[00:01:04] in the garden, would Adam and Eve still eventually eatin' from that tree? Why or why not?

[00:01:11] The why or why not is tricky. In the position I currently sit right now,

[00:01:18] I would say yes. They would have eventually moved towards sin.

[00:01:25] But I say that thinking through in already corrupted lens because I try to put myself in that

[00:01:34] position. And eventually you kind of want to just try something new. Eventually things work out

[00:01:45] a little too well for too long and it's maybe it's not that big of a deal. In example,

[00:01:52] I can think of is my car burns oil pretty slowly but it does.

[00:01:59] And there are there have been a couple times where it has given me a notice that the oil pressure

[00:02:06] is low because it's burned so much of it. The engine is saying, if you don't give us some more of this,

[00:02:12] we're in trouble quickly and I need to like constantly not constantly but I need to semi-regularly

[00:02:20] check the oil level and add little bits to it in between oil changes and things like that. This

[00:02:24] is very data analogy. Hopefully that I'm hoping that's coming through. But when I go a while

[00:02:33] without that notice, I start to think well maybe the problem's just kind of sorting itself out.

[00:02:40] Maybe it's not actually happening anymore. Maybe the car was wrong. The first time that it told me

[00:02:48] that it didn't have enough oil even though I have very concrete evidence that it was not like

[00:02:52] when you go to change it and not a whole lot comes out while the rest had to go somewhere.

[00:02:57] Even though I know all that, it's easy to start getting into this well.

[00:03:02] Maybe it wasn't that big of a deal? Maybe it wasn't like things have been good for a while.

[00:03:07] Maybe that means the boundaries we've been putting in place are a little too strict.

[00:03:12] So I can imagine a scenario where Adam and Eve are like everything's fine

[00:03:19] and it just kind of always has been, maybe it's not a big deal. Let's go see what that thing

[00:03:25] actually is. I find it hard to picture life without that inquisitiveness even if it is very much

[00:03:33] misguided in our current corrupted state. So I feel like they do end up in that position.

[00:03:39] So I'm going to disagree with you which is always exciting on this show because Brian and I

[00:03:45] disagree with the third time. We disagreed on something that isn't pop culture.

[00:03:49] Yeah, right. We agree on mostly everything but I'm going to actively actually try to change your mind

[00:03:55] and if it doesn't work that's fine we can still be friends but wouldn't that be hilarious

[00:03:59] if we disagreed on this and then we're like the shows over.

[00:04:03] We got to our first major. You're dead to me. The sad thing is that's actually how some

[00:04:11] Christians are but anyway, okay I'm going to actively try to change your mind here. I go go for it.

[00:04:17] So I love when you started things off saying that you are arguing your position from a broken

[00:04:25] sinful mind framework that you have and that's not me saying I don't have that I do but I

[00:04:31] here's my thought. When God made creation it was good. We're told that over and over and over again

[00:04:40] it was good. I know that the text doesn't say it was perfect but I think there's an implication

[00:04:46] that it was pretty close to it. Also, Adam and Eve have not eaten from the knowledge of good and

[00:04:54] evil. Therefore they don't understand good and evil. They don't know how to make an evil choice

[00:05:04] and so my thought process is Adam and Eve are truly innocence. I think even a Calvinist who

[00:05:12] believes in total depravity would probably believe that Adam and Eve were initially made without

[00:05:18] a sin nature. It was the corruption of the fall that corrupted their very nature.

[00:05:24] They very much would argue that position. Yeah, so I would say that if you have Adam and Eve as total

[00:05:31] innocence without a sin nature because my son Jack, you know, he has sin nature. He's born with it

[00:05:39] so he has rebellion in his bones. Adam and Eve don't they're innocent and they're trusting

[00:05:46] and I think they trusted God but then when something else came along that spoke with authority

[00:05:52] they were so trusting and innocent that they also trusted it. That to me is the truly devious thing,

[00:06:02] you know, the corruption of innocence. I think whenever we see a child abused, you know, and it's

[00:06:07] this innocent kid and all of a sudden their innocence is robbed by some corrupt being, some horrible

[00:06:14] adult with evil in their heart. That's what I think of when I think of Adam and Eve. Yes,

[00:06:19] they're probably created as full-sized adults but like, they're really childlike in a sense

[00:06:26] in their innocence. And so that I think that just in the same way like I see a cliff and I know

[00:06:35] not to jump off it. Like there's no temptation to jump off it. Yes, it's unknown but I could go my

[00:06:43] whole life without jumping off a cliff because I've been told, hey that's a bad thing for you.

[00:06:48] Don't do it and I've seen evidence that it's a bad thing and bad things will happen to me if I

[00:06:52] do it. So I think Adam and Eve are under the trusting, innocent impression that what God says is

[00:06:59] right and true and I'm going to trust him and it's only because of the corruption of an outside

[00:07:03] force that then they are led to the dark side. I'm not convinced. In that theory we have Adam and Eve

[00:07:14] as essentially moral morons and God grants them the privilege to wander into a universe

[00:07:26] altering moral quagmire just because he wasn't holding their hand in that moment.

[00:07:33] Yeah, I'm not saying that they're moral morons. I'm saying that they were innocent

[00:07:38] and I'm saying that another thing that hasn't become a part of this conversation is that the intention,

[00:07:45] I think you and I would both agree, is when you look at the biblical story, the goal was not for Adam

[00:07:51] and Eve to chill in the garden forever and hang out and treat the garden like it was some sort

[00:07:57] of vacation resort because at that point yeah I mean I do get the part of your theory where it's

[00:08:01] like after you've eaten from all the trees maybe the one that you haven't eaten from maybe you'd

[00:08:05] be like maybe I'll try that. Maybe they would have even eaten the fruit as an accident.

[00:08:10] Like maybe they just forgot after a thousand years in the garden, right? They're like oh shoot,

[00:08:14] I forgot that God said not to eat from that tree but we know that the story of the Bible was moving

[00:08:20] towards something. The goal was to start in the garden and then God is king. Adam and Eve are

[00:08:26] the prince and the princess and then go into the world and subdue it so it's that we've talked about

[00:08:33] that phrase that the world was formless and void in the Hebrew it's Tohuvava who which means

[00:08:39] wild and waste. So it's this idea of go out into the world and tame the wilderness. There is adventure

[00:08:48] beyond the garden walls and I think at the intention that God had was him and his children go

[00:08:54] out from the garden, expand the garden, build the kingdom, have babies, make cities. So I just to

[00:09:02] me I think that was the intention. I think that's what God wanted and I think that there could have

[00:09:08] been a reality where if the enemy didn't corrupt Adam and Eve, I think they probably would have just

[00:09:15] obeyed because there would have been so much beyond that tree. You know what I mean? There's

[00:09:21] stuff beyond the garden to see and do and adventures to have and again that's to me the true tragedy of

[00:09:28] what was lost but it's also the hope of what we're building towards like the hope of the Bible

[00:09:33] is that we'll one day return to the Edenic ideal where the the new heaven and earth it's a return

[00:09:41] to the garden and then it's a reset. Let's go and build the world that God initially intended for us to

[00:09:48] build. If I were trying to make your argument for you, I would point to two things right now.

[00:09:58] The first thing that I would point to is that when God confronts Adam and Eve after they're

[00:10:04] eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, reading the fruit of the tree that didn't

[00:10:08] eat the tree, you get it, you're very sophisticated audience. That would be so funny if they just

[00:10:13] they're just chowing down on a tree. They just over corrected, you know? God said not to eat the

[00:10:19] fruit but he didn't say anything about eating the tree. The bark is chewy, I don't know, let's see.

[00:10:25] See that's another thing because they had never tried it so it's like how do they know

[00:10:29] if they never try, you know? I'm just that visual of Adam and Eve chomping on a tree is the best

[00:10:35] curiosity but when they do eat from the fruit they were not supposed to eat,

[00:10:40] the first of the three entities cursed is the serpent. So God begins with,

[00:10:50] I am mad at you for being the deceiver and you are the one who will be crushed but there is hope

[00:10:58] for these other two. I would then also point to that you could make the argument that the pre-fall

[00:11:07] state of Adam and Eve is equivalent to the post-resurrection and perfection of all things in

[00:11:18] revelation which we would say all of Christendom will be part of and we don't necessarily hold

[00:11:25] to a belief that there will just be endless ability to choose for or against God but rather

[00:11:34] the community of God's people at the end of revelation who enjoy his presence forever and ever,

[00:11:39] they are simply forever his at that point. However I think you are taking away some of the willfulness

[00:11:50] behind Adam and Eve otherwise God I think would exclusively be mad at the serpent and not be

[00:11:57] mad at both Adam and Eve but when if somebody I don't even like saying this but if somebody really

[00:12:06] hurt my son no part of me is mad at me. I am exclusively angry at the person who did that.

[00:12:14] This hasn't even happened and I'm mad right now, like I feel like a rage like welling up in me

[00:12:19] of just like none of that is directed at my son who's been hurt by somebody it's only directed

[00:12:26] at the one who did the hurting and so that to me that's not what we see in Genesis chapter 3.

[00:12:34] So clearly I think that there is a holding responsible for the willfulness that Adam and Eve bring

[00:12:41] to the fall of humanity and then the other thing I would say is so think about the way that

[00:12:47] God treats the serpent differently than he treats Adam and Eve because the serpent has already had

[00:12:55] his opportunity to choose. Yeah Brad and Eve this is the very beginning of their opportunity

[00:13:00] to choose and that's what I think distinguishes Genesis 2 from Revelation 22.

[00:13:08] Yeah you make some really good points Brian, I can't deny that. I think it's a really good

[00:13:14] food for thought for me and hopefully for the audience. I've been told by people you and Brian

[00:13:18] need to disagree more because it makes for way better radio than just two guys agreeing with one

[00:13:23] another but we should just do a disagreement series. Just fine seven topics we don't line up on

[00:13:29] and we're just our friendship fight yeah let's just fight for or make it stronger when we find out

[00:13:54] I think it's interesting because I don't see I don't see God necessarily showing rage towards Adam

[00:14:03] and Eve in the garden. He's angry I do interpret that anger as being primarily directed at the

[00:14:11] serpent but you do see frustration at Adam and Eve. You do see disappointment at Adam and Eve

[00:14:17] and you do see judgment towards Adam and Eve but the judgment it's interesting that the judgment

[00:14:22] that I see towards Adam and Eve is very much in line with the same judgment you see at the tower

[00:14:27] of Babel where it's putting limitations on sinful humans to almost protect them from themselves

[00:14:33] and to quarantine them from their own destructive tendencies but with the serpent the reaction is

[00:14:39] I'm going to kill you like I am going to crush you like me and my son are going to put an end

[00:14:46] to you so watch your back and to me I look at and I'm sure you would agree I look at God very much

[00:14:56] having this love for humanity in the way a father loves his children and yes when you're a

[00:15:04] father that you have to lay down the law you have to punish at times my son's almost two and

[00:15:11] the punishments have not gotten super intense yet but there's still consequences like

[00:15:16] when he wants to go over and lick shoes which he does there's a basket of shoes by the front door

[00:15:20] he wants to go over and lick them and I I've come up with this technique I called the Timeout hug

[00:15:26] which is probably the most me punishment ever but I'm like Jack because he doesn't like it when I

[00:15:32] like like he likes bedtime cuddles and hugs but like if he's playing he does not want me to pick him

[00:15:37] up and hug him like he wants to go and do stuff so if if he tries to lick the shoes I tell him

[00:15:42] buddy you're gonna get a Timeout hug and I hug him for 20 seconds and he hates it but then

[00:15:48] the next time he wants to go lick those shoes he kind of looks over at me and I can see the gears

[00:15:52] turning in his head and he's going okay if I go lick those shoes I know what's going to happen

[00:15:57] he's gonna try to hug me again isn't he? I don't know if I'm creating a complex where my son's

[00:16:03] going to associate affection with punishment but we'll cross that bridge and we come to it

[00:16:07] one way to find out I know in a similar vein my son Nate is a little younger than Jack he's about

[00:16:13] a year and a half at this point but one of the things that we've started doing is when when he

[00:16:19] is willfully doing something wrong I stop him until he looks at me and I'll tell him like Nate

[00:16:27] you need to look at me and he know and he will avoid that eye contact and he will he'll do like

[00:16:34] the gator like what do they call it like the barrel roll of death or whatever like when they

[00:16:38] grab something they're just flopping and twisting and all that he will lose his mind to avoid that

[00:16:45] eye contact of just like I am not going to posit that you are the one in control right now so it's

[00:16:51] kind of like trying to get just at the rebellion itself and not even just the act of throwing his

[00:17:00] dinner on the ground or running towards the outlet to play with it or something like that yeah

[00:17:05] man all this talk about rebellion and kids it's so relatable you know we're we're dads now

[00:17:10] we get it but I think every human understands this concept of sin as rebellion and I think of my

[00:17:17] son Jack I love him to death he's the cutest little red-headed muppet and speaking of muppets

[00:17:23] he now can name Big Bird Oscar the Grouch Elmo Grover I have a bunch of Sesame Street books

[00:17:29] and I'll point and say where's Grover and he knows exactly where Grover is he's smart little dude

[00:17:36] but you know he's he's the cutest thing in the world like literally melts my heart he'll you

[00:17:42] know I'll open my office door I wear I'm so blessed to work from home and I'll open my office door

[00:17:47] and he'll go da da and he'll start like walking down the hall with his arms open I love him to death

[00:17:55] but the problem with my son is even though he's super super cute he does whatever the heck he wants

[00:18:04] he doesn't listen when we tell him Jack don't stick too much food in your mouth because you'll choke

[00:18:10] yeah he loves Cheerios and he calls them yo-yo's he goes yo-yo's

[00:18:15] nice yo-yo it's the best but he'll I'll be like dude one at a time one at a time

[00:18:21] and he will grab 20 and shove him his mouth and then I have to stick my fingers in his mouth

[00:18:26] to retrieve them it's the worst he does yeah he does what he wants and when we try to give him medicine

[00:18:34] because he's sick he thrashes and screams in our faces like he acts like we're trying to murder him

[00:18:41] when he had a really bad cold we had to give him this syrup you know through a syringe not a needle

[00:18:46] but just you know open your mouth we're gonna push this liquid into your mouth

[00:18:50] and I had to go to my neighbors and say hey can you do me a favor and not call CPS because I know it

[00:18:56] sounds like my son is being tortured and killed but we're just trying to give him medicine that's

[00:19:03] how strong his reaction is like my son ultimately at this stage in his development he does what he wants

[00:19:09] even if it causes harm and destruction he doesn't care all he wants is what he wants and that the

[00:19:15] at the age of one and a half years old he doesn't actually care about our emotions I know he

[00:19:20] definitely loves us but he doesn't really care about how we feel about the things that he does

[00:19:26] if our feelings or our desires get in the way of what he wants they are merely seen as obstacles

[00:19:32] to him all these things are cute in the sense of a toddler because we know a toddler doesn't

[00:19:38] know better but the dark underside of this is when the same thing happens with us

[00:19:42] full grown adults and teenagers and young adults when we have sin as rebellion when we get to

[00:19:48] the point where all we want is what we want and what God says and what God feels about it our mere

[00:19:56] obstacles to our happiness when we act like children screaming and thrashing because we do not want

[00:20:02] obstacles in the way of what we desire that's when we're in a really dangerous place

[00:20:14] yeah one of the interesting things that I have begun to notice and really think through for myself

[00:20:37] with having a one and a half year old run around and creating all sorts of chaos is I find myself

[00:20:46] thinking about these different moments where it's like why am I so upset that he's throwing

[00:20:53] flashcards with animals on the ground just because I just picked them up this is not work like

[00:20:57] and I find myself being genuinely upset about the fact that there's yogurt on tile

[00:21:03] like it cleans up so easy like it's not a big deal and I don't want to be the kind of parent where

[00:21:10] it's like I'm so uptight about everything and I'm really like demanding my own way and what I've

[00:21:16] started thinking through is the actual outcome itself is not the thing that frustrates me

[00:21:25] it's the deliberateness of the rebellion oh yeah that makes me upset and that's one of the things

[00:21:32] that I'm trying to work through of I don't want to come down too hard on the outcome but when I do

[00:21:40] see the clear root of rebellion that is the thing that I want to really act against so even thinking

[00:21:49] about an older example if I am leading a small group and somebody makes a comment while I'm teaching

[00:22:00] or something like that and they're like they make a quick joke and it makes the the group chuckle

[00:22:05] I'm not mad at that if they do it once or if they do it a couple times or if they do it because

[00:22:11] like if it's clear they're doing it because they think it's creating like added unity in the

[00:22:17] group or it's creating like an open forum kind of feeling if they think it's contributing

[00:22:24] I'm not nearly as upset then if it feels like a deliberate effort to stop me from accomplishing the

[00:22:33] thing that I want to accomplish and I think that that's one of the things we need to have

[00:22:38] ringing in the forefront not even just the background of our conversation on sin that it is not

[00:22:45] necessarily just about the particulars of the things we do wrong it is the fact that at its core

[00:22:55] our sinful activities are joining in this grand rebellion against the leadership and the

[00:23:04] rightful place of God yeah no 100% and I think I think there's this interesting weird tension

[00:23:13] between being a parent and having righteous anger and then fleshly anger and righteous

[00:23:21] frustration and fleshly frustration I think you know we are imperfect so there are times where a

[00:23:28] child is literally being a child and we're just like why is this child being such a child why can't

[00:23:32] he be 34 but I think exactly what you said recognizing the whole thing we've been talking about

[00:23:38] it's not about just hey here's the rules you broke them there is this dark destructive force

[00:23:44] there's a war going on and I think maybe this is just a quick theory but maybe that frustration

[00:23:51] that we feel in our children or when we were youth pastors in the frustration that we feel

[00:23:57] towards you know teenage boys just like 12 year old dudes just being punks

[00:24:04] perhaps that frustration is rooted in something godly because I don't know about you when I see my son

[00:24:15] willingly rebel like where he is just defiant there's a part of me that's like oh like on the

[00:24:22] one hand I'm annoyed at him but on the other hand I'm like if he gets comfortable with having his

[00:24:29] own way if he gets comfortable with controlling every situation if he gets comfortable

[00:24:36] with wanting to do the things that he wants to do that are like bad for him

[00:24:43] the more comfortable he gets the more potential destructive things will hurt him and harm him down

[00:24:50] the road there was a season in my life as a kid where I didn't want to do anything wrong because I

[00:24:59] didn't want to hurt my parents like I felt like they loved me so much that I didn't want to do

[00:25:06] anything just as a child because I was like this is gonna hurt mommy and daddy's feelings this

[00:25:11] is going to I didn't even understand why the thing was wrong I just knew this is something that

[00:25:15] hurts their heart and I think that's the tenderness that god wants to see in humanity not because he's

[00:25:21] some controlling egotistical parent because he knows when there's trust like he can look at something

[00:25:29] that we look at and go that looks fun that looks awesome and he knows there's poison this is the

[00:25:34] analogy I've been using for 20 years of ministry but there's poison in the cake like yes it's got your

[00:25:41] favorite fun-fedie frosting with the dots in it yes it tastes amazing yes like who cares about

[00:25:46] the calories it's the best cake ever it's ice cream cake whatever but if you don't know that there's

[00:25:52] poison in it and if you don't understand what poison even is yeah you're gonna be mad when your

[00:25:58] dad is like hey don't eat the cake you're just like why does my dad hate fun why does my dad hate

[00:26:03] parties why is my dad hate birthdays but your dad actually loves you and doesn't want you to die you

[00:26:09] know it's it's such a simple silly analogy and even beyond all this I think you know we're so

[00:26:14] impatient even now like I can't imagine how hard it's gonna be when our sons are teenagers that were

[00:26:19] were this impatient as parents of toddlers but I love that god literally has to deal with all of the

[00:26:28] sinners in the entire universe if that was me I'd be constantly on the break of a nervous breakdown

[00:26:35] and I would be so impatient and mean most people tell me that I'm a nice person to work with

[00:26:41] and I'm patient you know but if if I had to deal with all of the sinners in the world I would be

[00:26:45] the biggest jerk and yet in Exodus 34 6 through 7 which is one of the most quoted passages of

[00:26:54] scripture throughout scripture where Yahweh is defining who he is he passes in front of Moses

[00:27:01] and he proclaims the Lord the Lord the compassionate and gracious god slow to anger a bounding

[00:27:11] in love and faithfulness maintaining love to thousands and forgiving wickedness rebellion and sin

[00:27:19] that's that's the character of God he is so stinking patient it's ridiculous how patient he is

[00:27:27] but when you go back to the root of it's not about rules it's about god wants a family

[00:27:33] and sin corrupted his family and now god is like Liam Neeson and taken where he's I have a very

[00:27:40] particular set of skills divinity and he's just he's out to get his family back that's the story

[00:27:48] of the bible so why is rebellion a bad thing I taught this this material to the school discipleship

[00:27:55] out here in euconical home and I asked them why is rebellion a bad thing it's not just because

[00:28:01] of breaking the rules it's because when you are rebelling you are defining good and evil on your

[00:28:07] own terms again think of poison do you want to define poison on your own terms or do you want to

[00:28:14] listen to someone who understands what poison is yeah there's a great book by Cornelius plantinga

[00:28:21] not the way it's supposed to be and it's all about sin and it's a great reach for anyone who's

[00:28:26] interested in reading deeper on this but in his introductory chapter one of the things that he says

[00:28:32] is that god hates sin not just because it violates his law but more substantially because it violates

[00:28:41] shalom it breaks the peace because it interferes with the way things are supposed to be you know

[00:28:49] that god like you're saying he has this greater goal in mind a goal of a family that is connected

[00:28:57] and caring and able to project the goodness of god's character throughout the entire world and

[00:29:05] is able to enjoy the good things like thinking about god enjoying relationship within the Trinity

[00:29:13] before the creation of anything else that is really what god is inviting us into just the enjoyment

[00:29:21] of that relationship sin is anything that gets in the way of that enjoyment and think about

[00:29:29] think about how stressed a family member gets when something is going wrong during thanksgiving

[00:29:35] preparations like what they're mad about is that thing is going to get in the way of the ideal

[00:29:43] meal that they had in mind with their family it's going to this it won't end up being the way

[00:29:50] that Thanksgiving is supposed to be or the way the meal is supposed to be well god is simply having

[00:29:55] that on a cosmic level and in a way that is much more significant than just one meal or just one

[00:30:02] event or just one whatever he's thinking this is how things will be forever and I want to get rid of

[00:30:10] anything that violates or corrupts or gets in the way of the perfect unity that I am trying to build

[00:30:18] across my entire family yeah man amen

[00:30:25] I think this is a good place to land the plane and I think that

[00:30:47] because we are talking about sin and we're talking about Genesis 1 2 and 3 I think we have to end

[00:30:56] again with just going back to that prophecy of the snake pressure because you might be here listening

[00:31:04] and this this episode could possibly cause some discouragement or maybe even opening your eyes

[00:31:11] to this big reality we're like whoa I thought sin was just about deeds I thought it was just god

[00:31:21] gave me a list of rules of things I'm not supposed to do and then I didn't do those things right

[00:31:27] did the things that he told me not to do and now he's mad at me and now he I need Jesus to save me

[00:31:32] from God being mad at me and when you realize it is so much bigger and and there is a army

[00:31:39] an evil wicked rebellious army that is out to destroy Yahweh and his family and everything he

[00:31:48] stands for in his kingdom because they just straight up hate him that can be overwhelming

[00:31:57] that can honestly be overwhelming and without the right context they can leave people freaking out

[00:32:01] and thinking oh there's there's demons behind every corner they're out to get me they're out

[00:32:06] to destroy me and I want to just encourage you that none of this came as a surprise to Yahweh

[00:32:14] and he's always one step ahead of the enemy and right from the beginning when Adam and Eve

[00:32:20] sin he steps in and he hovers them with the blood and the coat of a lamb

[00:32:29] and then he makes a promise and he says one day this disease will be cured one day you will be

[00:32:38] free one day I will come and I will defeat that snake I will crush his head and the reality for

[00:32:48] Christians is that you are living in a time period where you don't have to wait for that anymore

[00:32:56] like Jesus has come like he's died on the cross he's risen from the dead he is defeated sin and death

[00:33:06] and yes sin and death still exist but they are wounded animals they are on their way out they are

[00:33:14] bleeding and running out of blood when Jesus rose from the dead he was the first born son of the

[00:33:22] new creation and now he has invited you and me to take part as children of the kingdom so yeah

[00:33:32] even though we do a sin even though we do a death people still sin people still die

[00:33:36] we are moving towards a day where sin is completely eradicated where death is completely gone

[00:33:42] and right now at this very moment the consequences of sin and death for the Christian are non-existent

[00:33:50] not just to be clear if you go in rob a bank yeah you'll face consequences you'll go to jail

[00:33:56] but the consequences against you are soul your eternal state you have forgiveness you could rob a

[00:34:03] bank you could do something worse and you will be forgiven and then as you're following Christ he is

[00:34:10] making you more into his image he's making you more like himself that the longer you walk with

[00:34:16] Christ the longer you're not going to want to rob banks or fill in the blank whatever is your

[00:34:22] temptation the more you're going to build up resistance the more you're going to have ammunition

[00:34:27] to fight against the forces of darkness yeah it's hard yeah it's hard when people that you know and

[00:34:33] love die it's hard when people that you know and love fall into temptation and sin and it's really

[00:34:39] hard when you fall into temptation and sin when you struggle when you find yourself in the pit

[00:34:46] of darkness wondering why am I here I'm a child of the light how did I find myself here

[00:34:52] but the amazing thing is we are fighting a battle knowing that the war is already one

[00:34:58] knowing that the end of the story has already been written so it's not a matter of are we going

[00:35:04] to make it are we going to make it we know and we will make it that that ending is sealed

[00:35:13] I want you to be encouraged in Christ you have freedom and victory over sin and death and darkness

[00:35:24] the dark destructive force that has corrupted humanity and the earth no longer has power or authority

[00:35:32] over you you will still do battle with it you will still face it you will still fight it but it is

[00:35:38] no longer your master you are free you are free in Christ and because of what he did on the cross

[00:35:49] his victory is your victory that is just that's the gospel I completely agree as we talk about

[00:35:58] deep heavy topics it is always good to point back to the hope that we have because the reason we

[00:36:07] care about diving into things like sin and corruption and hell the reason why we talk about all

[00:36:15] these things is because they make the hope of Jesus even more glorious and even more attractive so

[00:36:22] we hope that this series helps do that in your life thank you so much for listening to this episode

[00:36:30] of the Good Lion Podcast thanks everybody we'll see you on the next one

[00:36:38] and that is a wrap on our episode the serpent's role a theological debate on Adam, Eve and

[00:36:44] original sin i'm Aaron and it's been an absolute pleasure to navigate these complex theological waters

[00:36:51] today Brian and I not only debated a pivotal question on biblical history but I also hope that we

[00:36:56] demonstrated that even in disagreement there's immense value and respectful and open conversation

[00:37:02] our journey through Eden's what ifs has hopefully left you with new insights deeper questions

[00:37:07] and a renewed appreciation for the profound mysteries of our faith as we wrap up this episode I

[00:37:13] encourage you to reflect on these discussions in your own walk with Jesus ultimately our heart in

[00:37:18] this series is that you understand the nature of sin the nature of hell and more than anything the

[00:37:24] nature of mercy and grace the power that defeats hell and defeats sin forever if you enjoyed this episode

[00:37:32] tell somebody about it share it on social media recommend it to a friend leave us a review which

[00:37:38] helps a ton or if you really want to go for it if you're listening on Spotify you can actually

[00:37:42] leave a comment on the episode which we would love to hear from you we'd love to hear your thoughts

[00:37:47] or your ideas or even your pushback if you have something to say about this episode it would

[00:37:52] mean the world to us to hear from you even if you don't listen on Spotify you can go on Spotify

[00:37:58] find the episode and drop a comment in the episode thank you for joining us and until next time

[00:38:02] keep exploring keep questioning and keep growing in your understanding of God's word and the kingdom

[00:38:08] of Jesus