196. Can We Lose Our Salvation?

[00:00:08] Welcome to Making Disciples. My name is Chris and I am your host, warm, warm welcome to you today. Thank you so much for spending this time with us as we discuss another discipleship topic. Now, today's topic comes from a listener who Derek Messaged and said,

[00:00:29] Love the podcast, Love what you guys talk about. Can I ask a question? And then he went on to say, What happens when a Christian sins? Does it mean God know but no longer loves them? Or that they have lost their salvation? Oh, what a great question.

[00:00:48] Is there three things that you know? What happens when we sin? A Christian's? Does it mean God no longer loves us? Is there a consequence to it? And then this, can you lose your salvation?

[00:00:59] Oh, this is great questions. Thank you so much for sending that in. And really appreciate that you've taken the time to do that. I'm saying that as if I haven't spoken to the listener actually we've been DMing back was on forwards on this particular topic.

[00:01:12] But yes, we're going to look at that today. I thought it'd be really fun for us to spend a little bit of time looking at sin in terms of what does it mean?

[00:01:22] Once we're a Christian, once we're saved, then we go on sin again. What does that mean? And what are the consequences of that? What is salvation anyway? What is that thing? So that's what we're going to explore today. Two quick things to know about.

[00:01:37] Hey, I'm sat here sipping a coffee that one of you has paid for. So massive thank you to those listeners that have supported the podcast.

[00:01:46] The last 12 months by buying as a coffee, the link is in the show notes. It's just a really lovely way of blessing us. You know, we don't charge for the podcast.

[00:01:55] We spend time preparing, recording and all of that each week to put this out. So just one of the nice kind things that you guys have done is it's to buy as a coffee.

[00:02:03] So thank you. I'm sat here with my coffee that one of you guys has paid for some podcast to almost so big thank you for that.

[00:02:10] The second thing is, hey, Len is fast approaching and boy, Len starts really soon. It's it's only mid February. So it's only a couple of weeks away.

[00:02:20] But if you want to explore discipleship further as a church, love you and it would encourage you to champion to your church leaders making disciples great for small groups.

[00:02:30] Great as a lent course, great as a general church program for Lent four weeks before Len or five weeks. You know, then a couple of weeks after Len. So that's making disciples which can get the workbook on the website.

[00:02:42] And the other thing is the apprentice to Jesus book that we've put out a few years ago. It's 40 days you get to read basically a section of that book each day has got a little Bible passage store and something to do.

[00:02:57] And it helps you explore your discipleship through what is the 20 questions that we ask on the discipleship assessment tool. So if you've never used that book or you've used it, you've got it on your shelf. You want to use it again.

[00:03:11] And coge to do that. I actually did I reused the book last year myself personally and just thought it was really helpful for me. Last Len having something to help me journey through.

[00:03:24] So I loved to encourage you both of those books you'll find in the show notes as well in the episode. So let's jump in as we start. We're going to talk about dealing with sinners a question, you know what happens when Christian sin does it mean God no longer loves them and could can we lose our salvation. That's what we're going to explore today.

[00:03:43] If you have a question that you are sat on that you would love to think a little bit more about together DM me. Don't it message me email me?

[00:03:52] You know, I would love to take any questions you've got and use that as the basis of a podcast episode. So please do share those with me. Let us jump in today. Then as we talk about can we lose our salvation?

[00:04:09] So dealing with sin as a Christian or surely when you become a Christian everything in your life is perfect now. Surely it's all fine and life's going to be easy. Hey, it's just not is it. Come on.

[00:04:31] And I like to think that this is a straight line and more like a spiral. So if you think of a road and a straight road,

[00:04:42] Disappleship was like that straight road you would leave your old self behind and you would walk forwards and there'd be no shadows from your old self in your new self.

[00:04:54] And you know Paul often talks about leave your old self behind your new creation and that is the kind of language we have in scripture.

[00:05:00] Well, I find with that it's really hard because when you come to fail again as a Christian you end up going well this obviously hasn't worked. I surely if I was a perfect Christian now then these things wouldn't happen the temptation would be there.

[00:05:15] I like to think of Disappship and our faith journey, well, like a spiral the crosses at the center of the spiral and we as disciples are moving around Christ we're on this journey spiraling around towards him in the center.

[00:05:31] And there were times in your life where you'll hit the same issue or problem or you know part of your sinful self you'll come across that issue again.

[00:05:43] And when you see it as a part of the spiral when you hit that issue again you can say to yourself, I'm not going to deal with it better this time than last time I'm closer to Jesus this time than last time.

[00:05:55] I'm going to as I slip up will I slip up faster in terms of getting back on the disopping journey quicker you know with a friend of mine.

[00:06:05] It was an alcoholic you know he became Christian he got clean and it was clean for a year and then he had a slip up and it slipped up for two months.

[00:06:15] And we worked with him we loved him we cared for him and we got him back into getting clean and then got back onto the journey been in disciple.

[00:06:25] It was fine for two years and then he slipped up again the question was well this time are you going to slip up for as much as you're doing you know last time actually he slipped up for two weeks.

[00:06:34] And we're able to get back on to that journey got in clean and then he slipped up last year and he slipped up once.

[00:06:44] And he recognised it fast and he responded quick that quick and then he'd ever responded before and he got himself the care that you need it he stopped drinking very quick.

[00:06:57] And was able to get himself back on the journey towards Jesus and what I love about it you know first I'm just slipped up two months second time was like two weeks.

[00:07:08] The third time was just once and because he's moving towards Jesus he's been able to handle his sinful self differently each time every time he has tripped up.

[00:07:19] Fallen made a mistake is been able to be better quicker, responsive and we now to move towards Jesus in the center so for me this opportunity is not straight line it's a spiral.

[00:07:32] You will come across your sinful self time and time again the question is are you dealing with your sinful self differently this time to the last time. So I thought that particularly helpful so the question is that would be last today's this what happens when a Christian sins.

[00:07:50] Then there's a consequence question over does it mean God no longer loves them interesting and then the other consequence question is this do you lose your salvation.

[00:08:02] So let's just ask this question first what happens when a Christian sins well the question is how what do you mean by a Christian because we're all very different.

[00:08:13] Some Christians sin and they allow that to just take over and rule their life or you think about the spiral and thing you know there are some Christians who they come across some sinful self and they deal with it better this time than they did last time.

[00:08:29] And the fact that they've sinned just means that this time around they repent faster they get up quicker and.

[00:08:38] So answer this question what happens when a Christian sins well what does happen you know we fall short like we have always done because we are broken sinful people who crisis putting back together.

[00:08:50] But that full completion of being the full full new self the new creation that that time when that really comes to fruition will be the time when we we arrive in glory. You know until that point the battle has been won.

[00:09:07] But there are still consequences that they're still not working you know living in pauses work out your salvation with fear and trembling there's a sense of.

[00:09:15] As sinful people come into no Jesus we're working ourselves out we're working our salvation working on how do I deal with this better how do I manage those lusts those cravings those wants those desires that I might have the foolishness that I have how do I work that out how do I deal.

[00:09:35] So why deal with that the consequences of that and I would say that's a lifetime journey so what happens when a Christian sins well God. Turns to us and with the same love and compassion in his heart when he first forgave us.

[00:09:51] The give us is again, you know that's what God is about you know so the question is does that mean that God never will no longer loves us totally not totally not.

[00:10:00] God's love is never ending it's it is always present as we turn to him is love is always fierce and true and there for us.

[00:10:12] I would have a little challenge to us and say look there's a danger though that we squander that love and we go do you know what God will forgive me so I'll do it again because it will just forgive me.

[00:10:22] And as long as I keep saying sorry he'll keep forgiving me so I can keep doing what I want.

[00:10:27] Look that's called cheap grace that's cheapening the grace of God, you know when God says to us you are forgiven I love you you're my son my daughter you are forgiven.

[00:10:38] We need to be careful that we don't respond back to him with cheap grace. Oh, so you forgave me therefore if I do it again you're going to forgive me again. Are you so I might so we'll just keep doing it because you'll just keep forgiving me cheap grace.

[00:10:52] So what happens when a Christian sins well actually what I was saying what should happen is we get faster to say sorry to God and we work out how to not go there again.

[00:11:06] Let's not go there again because anything else but that is what you would describe as cheap grace. So does it mean God no longer loves us not at all. But then this question is really interesting. Can a Christian lose their salvation? Can a Christian lose their salvation?

[00:11:33] Interesting one, isn't it? I'm going to look at three different ways of approaching that question. Before I do that let's just define what do we mean by sin. What is sin will sin is our behaviors are actions that separators from God.

[00:11:56] You know sin is first sin in the gods and the video with Adam and Eva's like hide from God's presence. So sin isn't just something that we do is also the consequences of that is that we end up hiding from God sin damages our relationship with the creator.

[00:12:12] So what we see out of an Eva's the sin wasn't just eating at the apple the consequences of that sin was the fact that they didn't hit from God.

[00:12:19] And that's what you and I do isn't it we do something silly, we slip up, we say the thing, we do the thing, we act in the way, we consume the thing.

[00:12:30] We pursue something we know we shouldn't and then we feel foolish so we then hide from God. And this is what sin is and the consequences of the consequences of sin is that it damages our relationship with our creator.

[00:12:47] So we've got to recognize that sin isn't just what we do, it's also that it means that we hide from him. We're now avoiding him because of what we've now done we know.

[00:12:58] Do you know what he's not going to be happy with this so I'm going to hide?

[00:13:02] As we see with Adam and Eve. So as Christians we aim to live obediently but we do sometimes for short and we've got to watch ourselves and say, you know, what am I doing that's damaging my relationship with God?

[00:13:15] But also how is that that damage to relationship we've got, how much am I now hiding from him?

[00:13:23] The word sin of friends it comes from an old archery term and in ancient Greek, the original meaning would be to miss the mark, missing the mark of falling short of a target.

[00:13:41] So when we sin, we miss the mark of perfection. We miss the mark of perfection and God wants us to be perfected.

[00:13:56] So I think about as we get kind of explore that we lose our salvation. Just keep in mind what sin is it's the falling short of our target, it's hiding from God.

[00:14:22] It's no longer allowing our relationship with God to be as fulfilled as God wants it to be. So can we lose our salvation is a really deep theological topic that varies from Christian denominations, depending on the denominations will approach this differently.

[00:14:46] So different branches of Christianity, whole different views on the nature of salvation. What it can be, you know, can this be, can salvation be lost.

[00:14:57] So let me answer this question, what is salvation? Salvation is freedom from our sinful self and the consequences of that, you know, eternal domination, a turnily living out of relationship with God. So salvation is freedom from our sinful self and the consequences of that.

[00:15:18] But it's not just, so salvation is not just salvation from our sinful self. Salvation is also to move us towards something. Salvation is also towards new life, new life filled to its fullest potential.

[00:15:42] Okay? So salvation is freedom from our sinful selves, but it's also towards new life towards new life. That's what salvation is. If we truncate it or shrink it, we can then have some very strange ideas about it.

[00:16:02] So what I'd like to do is approach the theology of salvation from three perspectives. One that I'd call the reformed theology, one that I described as the Armenian theology and the other would be a middle ground theology.

[00:16:25] Okay? So let's explore this. So number one, the first perspective we're going to explore it through is what you are title it as the perseverance of the saints.

[00:16:35] It comes from a more reformed theology, okay? And in this line of thinking it's believed that once you have said yes to Jesus, you are now adopted into the household of the saints.

[00:16:54] You are now your name is written in the book of life and you are now a part of God's salvation, part of his tribe, a part of his people, your name is written down.

[00:17:07] So according to this view, once a person is truly saved who's really accepted to Jesus, they will persevere with their faith.

[00:17:18] Yes, they may make mistakes, yes, they may fall, yes, they may sin but they're going to persevere with their faith until the end and therefore they cannot lose their salvation.

[00:17:30] So within this theology God saves those that he wants to save and then once you are saved you can't lose it no matter what you do.

[00:17:40] So there's a lot of ethical debates and discussions around it, it's particular thinking, you know what happens if you go on having accepted Jesus to commit a murder.

[00:17:51] Are you still saved? That line of the old you were saying, well yes you are because your name is written in the book of life and that you're a part of God's salvation, part of because you have accepted him.

[00:18:04] So that's the way to accept you have now got adoption, your name is written in the book of life and you're in. So that will be a more reformed theology in the front I am really very current curing here.

[00:18:15] So some of you who may come from a more reformed theological background, yes, Chris but you have mentioned, I'm just trying to give us broad brush strokes here.

[00:18:25] The second approach would be what I would describe as our title as a turn or security. So this is now a minion theology and it's believed that there is the possibility of falling away from your salvation.

[00:18:45] And according to this perspective individuals have the freedom to reject their faith or to turn away from God and therefore they're for fitting their salvation.

[00:18:55] So in this long of thinking you may have said yes to Jesus at some point in your life, but then later in life you decide to reject Jesus and therefore you lose your salvation.

[00:19:08] And therefore it's gone and there's nothing you can you can do about it unless you turn back to Jesus and you say, forgive me.

[00:19:17] And then you are adopted back in then then you're a part of the family again then your name is written in the book of life again that kind of idea.

[00:19:24] So within this there is this perspective that says well actually you might have accepted Jesus at one point in your life, but then you've got on to do nothing about that or you've allowed the things to come along and you you've ended up behaving in such a way that's in contrast to your faith.

[00:19:39] Therefore you have lost your salvation. So you've got the reformed which is you can't lose your salvation once you're adopted in your name is written in the book of life then you've got this more Armenian theology which is yes you can lose your salvation, you can't for fit it and you can repent again but you can lose your salvation even if you accepted Jesus as a teenager, but then you do nothing with it.

[00:20:03] You've lost your salvation. Then there's another option which is what you describe as conditional securities this is my third option it's middle ground and many Christians that I know would probably fall more in this it's kind of middle ground maybe.

[00:20:22] So if a person is to turn away from faith or to live in with unrepented sin they might lose our salvation and it's basically conditional your salvation is conditional on you keeping up your faith and keeping to continue your faith.

[00:20:44] So it's kind of something in between the two that says you know the way you keep your salvation is you have to keep maintaining it keeping on going with it and I was say this is kind of where I'm at with this I think you might accept Jesus saved 16 years old.

[00:21:04] You might be a Christian for 10 years or 26 but then you deviate from your faith you leave it behind you neglect it. Now for me salvation is repenting from your sinful self but it's also moving towards your new self and it's in salvation you've got the repentance of the past but also the movement of the future are you willing to become your new self are you willing to become the person that God actually saved you to be and this is where this kind of main maintenance

[00:21:34] and working out your salvation comes in you know it's about every day wanting to become more like the person God has wanted you to become.

[00:21:44] So I would say salvation is something we are working it out it's something we we're planning now some of us will work out in very different ways to others.

[00:21:53] It's really careful you know it should be just mental of how somebody else is working out this salvation because you know if they have accepted Jesus and they want to.

[00:22:03] It just look different for you to us, doesn't it? So you've just got to be really really careful but I would say can we lose our salvation well yes.

[00:22:14] It isn't just about getting a ticket to chocolate heaven salvation is freedom from our past but it's also the forming and shaping it and actively working as a partner with God in his kingdom work.

[00:22:28] And it's something that Jesus has saved us for we're not just saved from something we saved to something and therefore we live our lives working out what this is that God has saved us for and how to build his kingdom here on earth.

[00:22:44] So therefore if you're not doing any of that you're neglecting your salvation and you can go as far to say you're losing it because you're just not maintaining it's not this is not a relationship that you are committed to.

[00:22:58] It's just transaction that you've bought into that transaction of eternal life rather than life lived to the fullest of day.

[00:23:06] So the reality is friends which ever option you go down around option one two and three the reform theology the Armenian theology is conditional security which ever you go down.

[00:23:18] Super easy to come back to Jesus and find new life in him no matter which line of field you've got to turn to Jesus to say yes to him is the easiest thing we can do now it will cost us because we have to work it out but.

[00:23:37] It's easy because it's simply about turning to him so how do we use I want to talk a little bit about repentance then so how do we repent.

[00:23:49] How do we work out our salvation with repentance so for things first confess friends when we come when we see and we should first confess it honestly before God you know it says in one John one nine if we confess our sins he's faithful and just.

[00:24:06] We'll forgive our sins and purify us from all our on righteousness the first thing is to confess forgiveness is found.

[00:24:15] In confession confessing to Jesus this is what I have done this is who I have been I have fallen short I have missed the mark to confess it to him is this simple as that it does not need to be in a religious gathering it could be.

[00:24:29] You laid in the bath you are end of your bed you know where you're on a walk confessing it and it's not just confessing it.

[00:24:39] That's where some people get to you've also got to do this second thing repent of it so repent is the turning away from us in forself.

[00:24:49] And then the sentence literally means to turn around to go in the opposite direction Romans 6 12 urges us do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you so that you obey it's evil desires.

[00:25:03] The sentence is turning the total opposite it's not allowing evil to stay within but it's about as moving the opposite direction towards Jesus moving away from temptation. Moving towards Jesus and what he has you know I love the idea of turning around repent is being that turning away.

[00:25:26] So confession is his name but repentance is his now going in the opposite direction so confess and then repent the third thing and then is about training. God's grace covers our failures we are still responsible for pursuing holiness and discipline in integrity.

[00:25:46] And I think we have to in training for a disciplined life lived for God we need to rely on the inner work of the Holy Spirit it's crucial the Holy Spirit is crucial because the Holy Spirit is at work in us.

[00:26:01] And it's just as an athlete they exercise discipline over their training there's diet there's life style to exercise that sport.

[00:26:09] We as disciples of Jesus need you know we need self control we need to co-operate with God within us but friends we have the work of the Holy Spirit is supernatural power in us where God is going to make a did you will make his difference in us.

[00:26:25] So what does it mean to train well to train is vital friends you know studying the Bible perseverance and prayer accountability with other believers denying of those passions you know choosing to say no to those passions at wage war against our harness.

[00:26:43] So it's praying it's scripture and it's this peer surveillance to say no I'm going to be accountable to my life. I'm going to deny these things that want to pull me away from what God wants for me so this is about working out our salvation.

[00:26:58] And this is not about earning God's favor or earning God's blessing this is about putting ourselves into spiritual training to become the people that God wants us to be.

[00:27:08] And for us to do that we do need is divine power we need his Holy Spirit to be at work in us. So yes, we confess yes we repent turn around to God the opposite direction then we're going to training.

[00:27:22] We're equipping ourselves to say no to all the things that will trip us up we're going to training and then the final thing I would say around this would be walking closely.

[00:27:34] So I love it in the Genesis one, I don't know what always is I want to walk closely with God and sin was the thing that took me away in the other direction.

[00:27:44] I couldn't find them sinful cells don't walk closely with God and God wants us to walk closely with him because in that place of walking closely with him.

[00:27:55] We get to hear his voice and it's performed his likeness and this is a plan as we go to training what we're doing by saying no to temptation and and put in ourselves into I'm going to avoid the things that need to avoid and go to the other side.

[00:28:11] I'm going to avoid the things that need to avoid and go to for accountability we're now starting to walk closely with God and.

[00:28:20] And by walking closely with God he speaks into our lives we get to commune with him we get to hear his voice yes a form and shape us we have to enjoy God enjoy his presence and in that place we become.

[00:28:36] The true version of ourselves the the new creation poll calls it of ourselves because we've been formed into the likeness of him that we walk and journey with walking closely with him in the light allows the spiritual transformers our lives start to see and demonstrate the fruits of that walking closely.

[00:28:57] And we start to see his redeeming grace at work in us so what is confession what is repentance well you know confess is speaking out loud what we've done repentance is going into the direction.

[00:29:11] Disciption is then going into this training to make sure that we are becoming who God wants us to be on this walking closely with God is where we are formed and where we are shaped and where we have transformed.

[00:29:25] So as a follow up Jesus where we've said yesterday and we've experienced his salvation it's not just salvation from our past it's also salvation for our future. As we move towards new life and that's where the training and walking closely with God is so important.

[00:29:44] So I hope that's been interesting for you on different ways of approaching this. I would love to hear your views on this you know is there any particular view that you have on this reform theology or meaning theology you know this conditional security.

[00:29:58] Would you want to add anything into that I'd be really interested here if you've got a question that you are sitting on let me know I'd love to hear what your questions are it's really nice when you get questions from listeners that you can really dig deep into in an episode so there we go so friends and so next on grace and peace have a blessed week and I look forward to speaking to you.