208. Can Or Should Christians Have Therapy? (interview with Jo Hargreaves)

[00:00:08] Friends welcome to another episode of Making Disciples. My name is Cris and I am your host

[00:00:14] Thank you for joining us today on this podcast now today's episode is a interview with Joe Hardgreaves

[00:00:21] Now Joe is on I know her as Joe that's on Instagram and Joe goes by

[00:00:28] the Instagram name the faith filled

[00:00:31] therapist and I

[00:00:34] Just thinks the content that she puts out on her Instagram is just wonderful. She just brings these very

[00:00:41] simple godly

[00:00:43] Biblical principles and applies them as a psychotherapist to our

[00:00:50] discipleship and our formation and she's just brilliant in in what I would describe is very sensible

[00:00:57] Practices that are biblically grounded or can can be spoken into biblically that just really help form us

[00:01:06] You know as people particularly with our mental health anxiety

[00:01:10] Challenges that we have in modern society and so I've got on the podcast and she's given us half an hour

[00:01:17] To talk a little bit about about this

[00:01:21] kind of how she approaches

[00:01:23] coaches

[00:01:24] Mental well-being as a practitioner but also as a bit of a theologian and as a pastor and as a thinker

[00:01:29] So I really hope that you find this episode really helpful

[00:01:33] And I'd love to say to you look if you find it helpful share it

[00:01:37] You know take it link it into your Facebook link link it onto your Instagram

[00:01:42] Let people know it's here so they can also hear what Joe has to say

[00:01:47] So I'd love to encourage you to share the episode. Don't just keep it to yourself

[00:01:51] Let others know about it as well. So friends like let's jump in as we spend time

[00:01:55] interviewing Joe Hargreaves the faith filled therapist

[00:02:09] Joe welcome to making disciples. Thank you so much for giving us some time

[00:02:13] I do follow you on Instagram and I talk about you as Joe the faith filled therapist as if that's your last name

[00:02:21] Tell us Joe tell us a little bit about yourself like where are you like what do you do?

[00:02:25] What is it that kind of gets you up on a morning?

[00:02:28] Okay, well what gets me up on a morning is having a three-year-old that gets me up on the morning

[00:02:33] But so I have three kids we live in Lincoln, which is kind of right or kind of center and then a bit east of the UK

[00:02:40] Um, I lead a church with my husband

[00:02:42] We've been leading a church together for just over a decade and then we've been in wider leadership for much longer than that

[00:02:48] um, but also I trained as a counselor um a long time ago and then as top of topped up and

[00:02:54] with various

[00:02:56] qualifications to the point of being psychotherapist and I

[00:03:01] Love to my sweet spot is intersecting therapy and theology. I love that neuroscience and scripture

[00:03:07] So that's where I'm at and that's what I do

[00:03:09] Maybe well come on. Let's be honest

[00:03:11] Is therapy really something we as Christians should engage with is that's not some dodgy secular thing?

[00:03:18] Uh, is it really something that we should be talking about as Christians?

[00:03:23] Yeah, such a good question and actually for a long time

[00:03:27] I was a counselor who kind of parked that side of things and just did pastoring until I began to do more

[00:03:34] teaching around theology and begin to understand and see that a lot of what I was learning in the world of therapy

[00:03:40] And even neuroscience was actually had a really strong theological backgrounding and the thing that I felt passionate about was actually

[00:03:49] Claiming back some of this stuff around wholeness wellness

[00:03:54] well-being from secular society pop psychology even new age that have taken a lot of

[00:04:00] Stuff that is originally god's idea a lot of concepts. So mindfulness meditation

[00:04:05] taken that concept that if you read scripture, you can see is really biblical

[00:04:09] and twisted it perverted it co-opted it made it about um us rather than making it about god

[00:04:15] It's that classic romans

[00:04:18] What romans one thing about worshiping the creator created instead of the creator?

[00:04:23] So I've been on this journey of actually reclaiming some of this stuff back and I always come back to one Thessalonians 5

[00:04:30] 23 so a book that tells us

[00:04:32] That god is making us holy and whole in our body our soul and our spirit

[00:04:37] So rather than just our christian walk just be about our spirits about the entirety of who we are

[00:04:42] Which is exactly what therapy is and so much of what you learn in neuroscience in in

[00:04:48] Psychology in therapy is so biblical

[00:04:52] It's all god's idea and I think as christians we can afford to be on the front foot and reclaim this stuff for ourselves

[00:04:59] I don't think that's unbiblical. In fact, I think it's utterly biblical and wonderfully kingdom that we can claim this stuff back

[00:05:05] I love that. Well, can we just do that for a minute because it'd be great to hear your thoughts about where you see

[00:05:11] um

[00:05:12] mental well-being you talk about therapy that you know the activity of becoming well

[00:05:18] Analyzing ourselves. Where do we see that in scripture? Are there places where you go? Actually that that bit there

[00:05:23] That's about us looking at ourselves and kind of assessing our story

[00:05:27] You know what has impacted in our lives. Well, you know, where do you see that in scripture?

[00:05:31] Yeah, great question. Well again, I'll go back to this kind of what what theologians would call a

[00:05:37] tripartite our tripartite being the fact that we are a body

[00:05:41] We're a soul and we're a spirit and

[00:05:43] Biblically, we know that our body is our physical body

[00:05:46] Our spirit is the part of us that's seated in heavenly places the part of us that's connected to god

[00:05:51] Um, it hurt the eternal part of us, but our soul is our mind our will and our emotions

[00:05:56] And I think let's go straight to david in the psalms. He's always speaking to his soul

[00:06:00] He's asking god to search him

[00:06:02] He is I mean, I'd love to sit and have a therapy session with david. I think he's a man after god god's own heart, but also

[00:06:09] um

[00:06:10] Kind of the type of person that you find in your therapy chair in some ways because one minute

[00:06:14] he's kind of really feeling secure and thinks that he's

[00:06:18] Understands fully who god is the next minute

[00:06:20] He's on his knees and he feels like gods left him and abandoned him and he just personifies this human experience

[00:06:26] So you can take out specific biblical characters people within the bible or you can look at larger

[00:06:32] You can look at the whole meta narrative of the bible the whole big story that it's one about making us whole and holy and we know that that is

[00:06:40] Primarily through the work of the the atoning work of jesus christ on the cross

[00:06:44] But also then if we get into chapter and verse, let me give you an example. So again, it's been this big

[00:06:51] Breakthrough I say in inverted commas inverted commas

[00:06:55] In the world of neuroscience that we've realized that the brain is neuro plastic that it's not fixed. It's not

[00:07:01] um

[00:07:02] It's not that we can't change it and for for years and years probably 60 years

[00:07:07] Years ago everybody thought in the world of science your brain was fixed

[00:07:10] You can't change it now

[00:07:11] We realize that you can do exactly what romans 12 2 says you can be transformed by the renewing of your mind

[00:07:17] In fact, the whole premise of cbt cognitive behavioral therapy

[00:07:22] Is that you have to change the way you think before you change the way you live

[00:07:26] And actually if you look at the message all the way through scripture

[00:07:29] God's always saying um as a man thinketh so he is take your thoughts captive be transformed by the renewing of your mind

[00:07:36] Be careful what you think think about things that are true noble excellent praise worthy and actually in the wider

[00:07:42] Understanding of how we work as humans. We're we're beginning to just understand that our thoughts really do run our lives

[00:07:49] exactly like

[00:07:50] We read as a man thinketh so he is that what we think impacts us at a body soul and spirit level. So

[00:07:57] um, there's so many wonderful intersections another one quickly another quick one

[00:08:02] Who's not without quickly at all go for it?

[00:08:04] Well, I just love it

[00:08:06] Is this um again a fairly recent in the world of science discovery that um gratitude actually

[00:08:12] um helps um lower anxiety lower stress and your brain can't be grateful and anxious at the same time

[00:08:20] It can't do those two things and again, we'll this big who are about how exciting this is and what a great discovery

[00:08:26] But I think we already read it in one Philippians 4 verse 6

[00:08:29] Don't be anxious about anything except through prayer

[00:08:32] Instead through prayer supplication and thanksgiving or gratitude

[00:08:36] Make your request known to God and then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding

[00:08:40] Will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus

[00:08:43] So so much of what's being

[00:08:46] peddled through tick tock pop psychology

[00:08:49] Actually has its roots in biblical scripture

[00:08:51] And I think if we can really claim that

[00:08:54] For christians one we can really know what it is to be healthy and holy and whole in our body soul and spirit

[00:09:00] But we can also lead the way and I think as christians we should be leading

[00:09:03] Yeah, let's you a little bit more about CBT. You should just mentioned and um

[00:09:08] In that many of us as disciples are going through this process of rewiring our brain around a jesus way of thinking

[00:09:17] Uh, that's how I used to think and now i'm starting to think more like this

[00:09:21] um

[00:09:23] As somebody that's never done CBT

[00:09:25] um

[00:09:26] You know what are the processors or practices as a part of that that you know we can help

[00:09:32] Uh those of us who are wanting to change our way of thinking

[00:09:36] Now, of course everything we talk about today is always going to be and the work of the holy spirit

[00:09:41] That's a given isn't it?

[00:09:43] But it's this you know, obviously your side of it us working this stuff out

[00:09:48] You know what kind of things happen in CBT?

[00:09:51] Can you miss or mystify that a little bit and then help us just see how some of that might help us if we're trying to

[00:09:58] Change our thought patterns. You know, you just talk about being generous

[00:10:01] You know, there's a spiritual discipline of generosity

[00:10:04] But we have to move away from a poverty mindset

[00:10:07] Don't we to another way of thinking where we see ourselves very blessed

[00:10:11] So, you know, how how how can we apply some of that stuff?

[00:10:14] Yes, such a good question and actually I don't practice CBT

[00:10:18] Um, so cb but I do know about it

[00:10:20] So CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy

[00:10:23] And it's based on the premise of romans 12 2 that you can be transformed by the renewing of your mind

[00:10:28] Based on the facts that as you think your thoughts wire together your brain

[00:10:33] So your brain is always able

[00:10:35] But and this is why I think god has knitted his grace and kindness into ourselves

[00:10:40] It's literally knitted into the fact that into our very being that it's not just that we're stuck how we are

[00:10:47] So we know that when we meet jesus and we go on a discipleship journey

[00:10:51] We're being changed and we know that that's a beautiful spiritual

[00:10:55] But it's also a principle that physicalizes in our bodies because of how our brain works

[00:11:00] so for those of us that um struggle with thoughts and

[00:11:04] Struggle with our outlook and let me just say for a minute. I don't come at this just for a may

[00:11:09] I've done my qualifications and now I understand it

[00:11:12] I just really know what it is to walk through it to walk through feeling

[00:11:16] anxious to walk through feeling overwhelmed health anxiety has been a really big thing for me specifically

[00:11:21] So I've had to learn and apply this stuff and essentially CBT is based on the principle of

[00:11:28] Taking thoughts captive and reframing them again. We read in 2 Corinthians 10 verse 5

[00:11:34] Take your thoughts captive and make them obedient to jesus

[00:11:38] Now often people have taken that scripture and thought okay. I need to take my thoughts captive

[00:11:44] I'm going to suppress them and repress them if I'm a good disciple if I'm a good follower of jesus

[00:11:48] I shouldn't be thinking this way

[00:11:50] So I'm going to take my thoughts captive and squash them down

[00:11:54] But what I would say is when you have a captive

[00:11:56] What you do with a captive is you almost take them by the square for the neck and interrogate them

[00:12:01] You interrogate a captive because you want to know why they're there like why are you there?

[00:12:05] What's your intention? Where did you come from?

[00:12:08] So you do the interrogation and then you begin to speak scripture

[00:12:13] Then you begin to make the those thoughts obedient to jesus and I sometimes this sounds like a super

[00:12:19] Spiritual principle that how do we even ground that in our lives? And it's like this if you find yourself

[00:12:25] rehearsing arguments or nursing

[00:12:29] And rehearsing things that have happened to you historically in

[00:12:33] When you're driving to work or when you're doing your shopping

[00:12:35] Maybe you're like me and you become a verbal ninja when you're in the shower and you rehearse all the arguments that you might have

[00:12:40] And all that kind of stuff actually we stop and instead of allowing those thoughts to ruin our day and impact us

[00:12:48] At our physical level because our thoughts have a physical impact on us

[00:12:52] We stop and we begin to ask

[00:12:54] Why am I thinking this way? We take the thought captive

[00:12:57] We interrogate it and then we begin to speak the scripture that brings healing and wholeness that we are loved that we are safe

[00:13:05] That we are being healed and made whole that god as we read in philippines one god will continue the good work that he's done on us

[00:13:12] Um, so I would say it's never about denying and suppressing and repressing

[00:13:16] It's about being curious the phrase that I love to use is curiosity killed the cat. It didn't kill the christian

[00:13:22] It's okay to be curious as a christian with the holy spirit working alongside you to just begin to ask

[00:13:29] Why am I I feel this way? Why am I feeling like this?

[00:13:33] And then you begin to speak the truth of scripture another thing is again. I talk about it being knitted into our

[00:13:41] Into a biological neuro biological level

[00:13:44] Every morning when you wake up you have a whole new load of neurons. You have a whole new load of things that have been

[00:13:52] Connections in your brain that have been formed so you can think new thoughts if you had a bad day yesterday or a bad day today

[00:13:59] Wake up tomorrow and experience the physicalization of what we read in lamentations where we read that god's mercies are new

[00:14:08] Every morning and that again, it's not just a spiritual principle. It works out in our body every morning

[00:14:13] We have new neurons

[00:14:14] We have um new ability to think healthy holy thoughts

[00:14:18] And so I would say to anybody that's on a discipleship journey that might be struggling

[00:14:23] There's so much hope hope is knitted into you at a neuro biological level

[00:14:28] And I don't want the new age or secular to society to have that for themselves. That's god's job

[00:14:33] That's god that's god's created that and he's knitted that into us. So I feel passionate about that

[00:14:38] Hopefully it comes through. Yeah, I love I love that phrase by the way verbal ninja

[00:14:45] I know a few verbal ninjas

[00:14:48] Can we just keep going with what you're saying because you know, you know

[00:14:51] Every new day there's a new start god's grace is new for us each day

[00:14:55] And many of us have some spiritual practices that we are learning to implement each day

[00:15:03] Uh, we you know one of the things we try to encourage on the podcast is engaging daily with something around scripture

[00:15:09] Something around prayer something around the work of the holy spirit. Just talk us through how can mental well-being practices be built

[00:15:16] Into our spiritual disciplines

[00:15:18] Are there little things that we could be doing that could be a part of that rhythm?

[00:15:23] That actually will just set us up really well either at the beginning of the day or maybe at the end of the day

[00:15:29] Uh, that will just give us moments of well-being built into those disciplines

[00:15:35] Yeah 100 and I love that you say at the beginning of the day in the end of the day because

[00:15:41] Actually, this is something I teach on um alpha brain waves

[00:15:44] So as you're going to sleep and as you're waking up your brain drifts into an alpha state

[00:15:50] Which is a very relaxed state and it means that whatever information you feed it

[00:15:54] Your brain is more receptive to it than it is at any other point of the day

[00:15:58] And it can get kind of past our conscious mind into our subconscious mind

[00:16:02] Or I would say right into our inner person into our inner man

[00:16:06] So if you can use those alpha brain waves first thing at night last thing in the morning to declare scripture

[00:16:12] To declare god's word over you to declare some truth over yourself and in an area that you need to hear it

[00:16:18] And as a bit of an aside I would say for people that are struggling maybe with trauma or are struggling with

[00:16:23] Feeling very stuck often the main thing that we need to hear is that we're safe

[00:16:28] And that we're loved in order to heal in order to fully live john 10 light john 10 10 life as a disciple

[00:16:35] We need to feel safe and from scientific terms that means we need to be in this prefrontal cortex part of our brain

[00:16:41] Which is the very front part of our brain?

[00:16:44] um often when we when we feel fearful because of trauma and past experience

[00:16:49] We're caught in the back part of our brain, which is very much and that's a simplistic way of putting it

[00:16:54] But that's very much about fight flight freeze or fawn

[00:16:57] So we want to deal we want to protect ourselves from harm

[00:17:01] Through action through being angry through asserting ourselves or we want to protect ourselves from harm from running away

[00:17:08] Or freezing or forning is a very interesting one because it's all about pleasing people and keeping other people happy

[00:17:14] Which is something that we give like a big thumbs up to in the church

[00:17:17] But sometimes when people are busy keep serving on every team and keeping everybody happy

[00:17:21] It might be because they're forning and trying to protect themselves through

[00:17:24] Through threat from threat by keeping everyone happy

[00:17:27] So where i'm going with this is if we want to be if we want to be discipled

[00:17:32] Well, we need to get into that front part of our brain and the best way to do that is by feeling safe and loved

[00:17:37] So tell yourself as you're falling asleep. The name of the lord is a strong rep strong tower

[00:17:42] Those who run into it are safe or i am loved with an everlasting love

[00:17:47] And that message because of how your brain's working at that time will just be so

[00:17:52] Received by your brain and then your brain creates some pathways that begins to

[00:17:57] Wire itself according to that truth

[00:17:59] So I would say build into your practice alpha using those alpha brain waves morning and night

[00:18:05] Just a quick thing and I know we all get very used to picking up our phones and reading our devotionals first thing in the morning

[00:18:11] But the main thing that kicks you out of that alpha brain state is a blue light

[00:18:15] So as soon as you pick up your phone in the morning and you're doing your devotional on your phone

[00:18:19] You get kicked out of that alpha brain state. That's okay. If you want to do your devotion on your phone

[00:18:23] But just make sure you get a bit of time in beforehand

[00:18:25] Just meditating on one scripture if you don't know scripture and you find it hard just

[00:18:31] Use a principle i'm safe and i'm loved i'm safe and i'm loved and it will help do something

[00:18:36] The other thing that you can build into your day is gratitude the power of gratitude

[00:18:41] And again that physicalizes in your body you get a boost of serotonin

[00:18:44] Which is the feel-good hormone you get a boost of dopamine

[00:18:47] And so there's that and then lastly I would say so you don't have to

[00:18:52] Do a hundred extra things, you know, you're just kind of building it into your already existing practices

[00:18:57] Is meditating again on this sense of being loved when we feel love our body

[00:19:04] produces oxytocin which is the love hormone

[00:19:07] Um and what oxytocin does is it helps get rid of the fear hormone which is cortisol

[00:19:13] So when we're feeling full of fear full of stress full of overwhelm

[00:19:16] Our body gets filled with cortisol and that creates problems for us. We need a little bit but not too much and so

[00:19:23] This really is the physicalization of the scripture that we read in one john where it talks about perfect love casts out fear

[00:19:31] Well, it does because oxytocin gets rid of cortisol

[00:19:34] So I would build that in so use your alpha brainwaves practice gratitude

[00:19:38] Focus on the love of god and enjoy the oxytocin that you can get

[00:19:42] Um, also you can get it from chocolate, which is just one of my favorite facts because I love chocolate

[00:19:46] Um dark chocolate though. Unfortunately not a twirl bar or anything like that

[00:19:50] Um, so yeah those things just build them into your everyday practices and really you don't have to do too much more

[00:19:58] Isn't it interesting how faith

[00:20:01] Principles are found in the real world

[00:20:04] Hopefully that actually the things that we need on a human level

[00:20:09] Are found in on a faith level

[00:20:11] And so

[00:20:13] You know, I just found that really interesting, you know, you talked about love casting out fear and actually how chemically

[00:20:18] That is true. It's not just a theological idea or it's just a nice platitudes

[00:20:24] It's part of our chemical makeup

[00:20:26] It's like it's hard wired into who we are as people

[00:20:30] It is and this is why I think we cannot separate therapy and theology when it's all god's idea

[00:20:35] He's designed us for wellness. He's in our brain

[00:20:39] He's it's in our he's designed us to feel safe. He's designed us to feel love

[00:20:45] It loved he's designed us to connect with him

[00:20:48] And so I just don't for me

[00:20:50] I can't separate the two and they are they're so incredibly

[00:20:54] Interlinked even just one of the most powerful ways that you can regulate yourself if you're feeling all over the place

[00:21:00] Or you're feeling stressed is to sing because when we sing it activates our vagus nerve

[00:21:05] Which is our 10th cranial nerve activates that nerve by

[00:21:09] by the vibrations of singing or humming and

[00:21:14] When we activate the vagus nerve, we come into something called

[00:21:17] I mean it's all and it's all kind of academic words that really just we don't need to worry about too much

[00:21:22] But we come into something called our parasympathetic system

[00:21:26] which is rest and digest where we begin to feel peaceful so

[00:21:30] I look at that scientific principle and i'm like wow we're created to worship

[00:21:35] We are beings that are created to worship and when we worship

[00:21:39] It's not god doesn't ask us to worship him because he's some big ego maniac that needs it

[00:21:44] It's because he's knitted us to be

[00:21:46] To get to feel whole and peaceful and to be able to understand and receive his love

[00:21:51] When we sing and we feel all of the physical benefits that come with it for me

[00:21:56] It's mind-blowing and it puts me in a place of that in itself puts me like in a place of wanting to worship god

[00:22:01] Because I think wow you're amazing

[00:22:04] So cool

[00:22:05] You're really beautiful and wonderfully

[00:22:07] Yeah, I love that

[00:22:08] Can I ask you about some scripture?

[00:22:11] So in Ezekiel there's you know that amazing section where it says um when the spirit the lord comes on us

[00:22:15] You know we'll go from our having a heart of stone to a heart of flesh

[00:22:19] And many of us who come to faith

[00:22:22] Come into faith, you know being hurt

[00:22:25] There's things that we've we've been disappointed there's trauma in our lives

[00:22:29] And the effect that that has had on us is that we've closed in on ourselves our hearts have been in on ourselves

[00:22:36] And therefore we are traumatized people and our hearts are you know hardened because we don't want we want to protect ourselves from

[00:22:43] Future harm

[00:22:44] But yet the spirit wants to move us to a place of freedom where we are now as soft hearted

[00:22:51] And we've got hearts of flesh and so we know that's the work of the holy spirit

[00:22:55] But there's also I think there's got to be things that we could be doing that also help that process as well

[00:23:02] Um, could you just walk us through you know what what practices could people put into place or what things could people do?

[00:23:08] Yeah, no, I do I do recognize that my heart is traumatized

[00:23:12] My heart is hard and I want to be somebody that's soft-hearted

[00:23:16] What practices can we put into place that would help that process?

[00:23:22] Such a great question

[00:23:23] And first of all I would say similarly to how you said it when your heart is hard there will be a reason why

[00:23:30] It's not because you're a bad person. It's because of what will have happened

[00:23:34] Because of your experience and I guess I'd use that as a bit of a validation for anyone listening

[00:23:39] Is that whatever however your heart feels however you are

[00:23:42] Reacting or behaving right now it will all make sense given the wider narrative of your life and your journey

[00:23:48] And that's why I just love psalm 103 that talks about the compassion of god who's slow to anger bounding in love

[00:23:54] Full of compassion because he understands why your heart might be hard

[00:23:58] And like you said chrissa is the work of the holy spirit, but um again

[00:24:03] Let's look physicalize how we physicalize it in our body. What's going on? So

[00:24:08] I wish I'd come up with this phrase, but it's not mine. It's by a woman called carolin spring

[00:24:12] Who's a christian woman who does lots of work on trauma and she says you have to change your stance before you change your story

[00:24:19] So essentially when we're wanting and obviously the holy spirit can

[00:24:23] Is at work like you said and god can do whatever god wants to do

[00:24:25] He can do it in a moment if he wants

[00:24:27] But what carolin means by this about changing our stance before we change our story is that often

[00:24:33] When we've got a hard heart is because we're full of defense mechanisms and in self protection mode

[00:24:39] Um, so we need to change that before we can begin to change our story

[00:24:43] And often we want to change our story first

[00:24:45] Which is why we fail and we get so frustrated with ourselves and we feel like we're totally stuck

[00:24:49] Changing our stance is about changing the way we think

[00:24:52] um being able to think

[00:24:55] Align our thoughts with the truth of scripture because every cell in your body including all the ones in your heart

[00:25:01] and actually there's some amazing in in um some amazing research around the heart brain and um

[00:25:08] Having a hard heart really does impact you so your thoughts will impact every cell in your body

[00:25:13] So I would say be careful what you think

[00:25:16] Um, I would also say

[00:25:19] Ensuring that you know that you're safe and loved is an absolute priority

[00:25:24] It's all about safety

[00:25:26] When we feel safe then we can let down our defense mechanisms

[00:25:29] We can begin to soften because the reason you've got hard heart

[00:25:33] Potentially is because you came up with some defense mechanisms to keep you safe

[00:25:37] And this is what I would feel the Holy Spirit say

[00:25:39] I felt that I felt the spirit say this to me and it just feels like something

[00:25:44] That is part of this journey of going from a hard heart to a soft heart

[00:25:47] You might have put defense mechanisms in place that you needed at the time

[00:25:51] You needed them you needed them to keep you safe. You had to adapt to your environment

[00:25:56] But now those adaptive strategies have become maladaptive and you don't need them anymore

[00:26:01] You can get rid of some of those strategies that you've put in place to help keep you safe

[00:26:05] So I'd say it's about knowing that you're loved. It's about knowing that you're safe

[00:26:08] It's about taking your thoughts captive and also remembering that you are a physical body

[00:26:13] That your brain doesn't know the difference particularly with trauma

[00:26:18] Around something that's happening right now or something that happened historically

[00:26:22] So when we're rethinking traumatic things and this is why we get triggered with trauma

[00:26:27] Our brain doesn't know that it's not happening right now

[00:26:30] So, um

[00:26:32] Again, that's what that that's why it's so important that we manage our mind and also that we get support

[00:26:38] I would say for those who've experienced trauma. I'm a huge fan of therapy

[00:26:42] I really am but sometimes traditional talking therapy isn't the ideal thing

[00:26:46] Sometimes you need something a little bit more

[00:26:50] And some Christians are anti this I'm not

[00:26:54] EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization reprogramming

[00:26:57] Which all it does is it works on the principle of REM sleep. God gives us REM sleep. He created that

[00:27:05] And that EMDR can be very helpful for processing trauma

[00:27:08] Sometimes talking therapy isn't particularly helpful

[00:27:12] It just keeps us a bit stuck and then we feel worse about ourselves because we're waiting for that soft heart

[00:27:17] So I'd say it's about healing wholeness and all of the things that I mentioned previously

[00:27:21] Yeah, I love that a lot of what you've been talking about there is found in community. Isn't it?

[00:27:25] It's found in sharing life with others where we're safe

[00:27:30] Um, you know, sometimes we need to have an individual we talk that through with and sometimes we need to talk that through

[00:27:36] In a safe place with a safe group, you know, just depend on our situation, doesn't it?

[00:27:42] You know, what is it that we are we dealing with?

[00:27:45] Joe and big thank you just for I feel like you've given us a bit of a snapshot into a bit of permission as well

[00:27:52] to see how that whole

[00:27:55] Therapy world can leak into our faith and it'll allow, you know, it's a helpful tool

[00:28:01] Performing us as disciples as well, particularly when we've been hurt or when we've been harmed

[00:28:06] Um, and we've had trauma that there are times when we need

[00:28:09] That to be worked out and yes, it's the Holy Spirit

[00:28:11] But yes, it's also working that through with someone as well. So thank you for kind of giving us

[00:28:17] permission to kind of look at it in that that way

[00:28:21] if people wanted to

[00:28:23] Find out a bit more about you and the work that you do, you know, where can people track you down?

[00:28:27] I've kind of already mentioned instagram a little bit, but tell us a bit about instagram

[00:28:31] Tell us about your website. We'd love to know more about where to find you

[00:28:35] Right. Yeah, well, I post those stuff on instagram

[00:28:37] Which is a love hate thing for me because i'm naturally a complete introvert and I have to force myself to do it

[00:28:43] But I feel so passionate

[00:28:45] About communicating this so I always put little videos on instagram

[00:28:48] I've also got a website. Um, and I do monthly webinars. So I do monthly webinars exploring themes like this

[00:28:55] So how do you manage your mind god's way? How do you regulate your nervous system god's way?

[00:29:00] um

[00:29:01] So I do I do those every month and I always say to people if you I think I think they're 10 pounds

[00:29:08] They might be 12. I can't remember but if money is a problem just message me and you can come on for free

[00:29:13] So I do those I've also written an ebook called managing your mind god's way

[00:29:18] So I wonder if I create a discount code

[00:29:21] Maybe discipleship. Do you think that would be a good one? So anyone listening to this could get 25% off

[00:29:26] I think that makes it about five pounds or four pounds something. Um, if you put in the code discipleship

[00:29:31] I'll do it all lowercase and um, yeah

[00:29:34] So once you find those avenues, then I'll start popping up here there and everywhere

[00:29:39] Well, we'll stick I'll stick those things in the show notes for the episode so people can see those as well

[00:29:44] Joe big thank you big. Thank you for sharing this time with us today

[00:29:48] But also thank you for the stuff that you put on instagram

[00:29:50] I do know folk who really appreciate just those little moments that you share on there

[00:29:56] That could be really helpful nuggets for people who are struggling. So thank you for doing that

[00:30:01] I know sometimes putting ourselves out in that way can feel quite a lot of pressure

[00:30:05] But when people's lives are transformed it's exciting, isn't it? So big big. Thank you

[00:30:12] Joe until next time grace and peace and uh, thank you for spending this time with us. I see. Thanks, Chris