Clarity is Kindness: Why Creeds and Confessions are Helpful for Transmitting and Protecting the Faith - with Carl Trueman

[00:00:02] Scripture itself seems to point towards the use of things like creeds and confessions in order to make sure that the faith is

[00:00:12] transmitted in a stable form from generation to generation

[00:00:17] What role should creeds and confessions play in the life of a Christian or in the life of a church?

[00:00:23] If we have the Bible

[00:00:25] Then why are creeds and confessions necessary at all?

[00:00:30] These are the questions that I discuss with my guests today on this episode of theology for the people

[00:00:36] Dr. Carl Truman is the professor of biblical and religious studies at Grove City College

[00:00:41] He's an esteemed church historian and a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center

[00:00:48] Dr. Truman's recent book crisis of confidence addresses the claim that we as Christians

[00:00:54] Need no creed but the Bible and it makes an appeal from history reason and scripture for what he calls

[00:01:01] Confessional evangelicalism. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I'll be back at the end with some final words

[00:01:08] Well Carl Truman, thank you so much for being a guest on Theology for the People today

[00:01:12] It's great to be here. Thanks for having me all. I was excited to interview you

[00:01:16] I'll tell you because about a year ago

[00:01:18] I had an injury and I read one of your books during that time of my injury and it just really stuck with me

[00:01:26] I think I would probably say it was the best book I read of the entire year

[00:01:31] And so that was strange new worlds and really enjoyed that

[00:01:35] so your new book is called crisis of confidence and

[00:01:39] It's on the topic of kind of confessional evangelicalism

[00:01:43] So Dr. Truman, could you just start out by telling us a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:48] What you are involved with and where you serve generally and maybe then segue into talking about the book

[00:01:55] Sure. Well, I'm

[00:01:57] Professor at Grove City College in Western Pennsylvania. It's about 50 miles north of Pittsburgh

[00:02:02] It's a Christian liberal arts college and I teach there

[00:02:05] I'm in the biblical and religious studies department, but most of my teaching is actually on the humanities

[00:02:11] Core

[00:02:12] I'm also an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and I taught at seminary for many years and have been a pastor

[00:02:20] As well. So that's my sort of broad background my my academic background was in reformation studies

[00:02:28] Though my more recent work has been preoccupied with with matters of identity politics and sexuality things like that

[00:02:36] But that's my my broad background

[00:02:39] Mm-hmm. So when you're teaching in the humanities area of the the college there

[00:02:44] I mean, how does that intertwine with your theological studies?

[00:02:49] Well, the course I teach is the capstone humanities course and it's really looking at

[00:02:54] Christianity in modern thought to the modern world

[00:02:56] So a lot of the big questions questions of why does God allow suffering come up with remarkable regularity?

[00:03:02] What does it mean to be free?

[00:03:04] What does it mean to be a human being the kind of literature we look at Dostoevsky?

[00:03:09] The existentialists in the 20th century

[00:03:12] We were really wrestling there with with the big questions of human existence and life

[00:03:19] So although it doesn't directly touch on my my reformation specialization

[00:03:24] It's it's an interesting course to teach precisely because we're wrestling today with the same kind of questions that

[00:03:30] Christians have been wrestling with throughout the centuries

[00:03:33] hmm

[00:03:34] You know, I often tell people that in my theological studies

[00:03:38] One of the most difficult courses I took was I took a year-long course in philosophy

[00:03:44] And I would say it was like for me the most challenging course ever took

[00:03:48] but in many ways it was the most rewarding and

[00:03:51] I think that's why I appreciated your book strange new world so much is because you approach the topics of

[00:03:59] identity

[00:04:00] Maybe we call it politics, but identity matters and then address them through

[00:04:06] walking through some of the development of

[00:04:10] Philosophical thought I just love to hear from you like what do you think is the value of studying philosophy

[00:04:16] For understanding the modern age

[00:04:18] Yeah

[00:04:19] Well, I think a lot of a lot of philosophy deals with what I would call horizontal issues and therefore

[00:04:25] alerts us to to how

[00:04:28] Friends our neighbors

[00:04:30] Students our family members are thinking about the world around what kind of ideas are framing the way they think about the world

[00:04:37] What sort of lens are they looking at the world through also? I think exploring philosophy allows you to

[00:04:43] Think through issues and I always said a student sometimes, you know reading a book you disagree with

[00:04:50] It's not necessarily that you know

[00:04:52] It's not the disagreement that's important

[00:04:54] It's the fact that it will challenge you to think more deeply about your own position

[00:04:58] It will force you to think through a problem in a way that perhaps you haven't thought about before

[00:05:03] And so I think philosophy is very interesting that way. It's kind of dialogue partner in some ways as we wrestle with the big questions of life

[00:05:11] Wrestling with what others non-christians have presented as the answer

[00:05:15] I think allows us to sharpen our own doctrinal positions and hopefully deepen our own faith

[00:05:20] So let's talk a little bit about your current book. That's just come out crisis of confidence

[00:05:26] Could you summarize for us?

[00:05:28] The thesis of the book and why it is that you wanted to write on it

[00:05:33] Yeah, it's a revised version of a book. It was published about 12 years ago called the Kredle Imperative

[00:05:38] And what motivated the Kredle Imperative was my desire to persuade good evangelical folks

[00:05:44] that all of the things that they most wish to preserve

[00:05:50] Faithfully across the generations about the Christian faith the uniqueness of scripture the uniqueness of Christ the importance of faith

[00:05:57] The importance of doctrine

[00:05:59] All of these things could be best protected and best preserved through the use of

[00:06:04] historic confessions of faith of the kind that were produced in the

[00:06:08] 16th and 17th century now

[00:06:10] That's a bit counterintuitive for a lot of evangelical people because they

[00:06:14] Rightly what scripture to have a unique authority and are instinctively suspicious when somebody comes along and says well hang on a minute

[00:06:22] Scripture's teaching is best preserved through the use of a confession

[00:06:26] So what I try to do in the book is demonstrate that scripture itself

[00:06:30] Seems to point towards the use of things like creeds and confessions

[00:06:35] In order to make sure that the faith is transmitted in a stable form from generation to generation

[00:06:42] Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I noticed in the book

[00:06:44] So you take aim at this one phrase that's used that is no creed

[00:06:50] But Christ or is it no creed but the bible how either will do no creed but the bible no creed but christ they both work

[00:06:57] Yeah

[00:06:57] So the only group that i've ever heard really use that although i will say i think many people maybe embody

[00:07:04] That statement or maybe would like nod their head at it

[00:07:07] Is the restoration movement churches and I think that that that is one of their many

[00:07:13] Montras that they use

[00:07:15] And what do you think is wrong with that? Do you think it's maybe even maybe misleading they have a creed

[00:07:21] They're just not being forthcoming about it. Perhaps. Yeah, I think that the bottom line is that anybody who

[00:07:27] Who dislikes the idea of a creed or a confession because they feel it's adding to scripture

[00:07:31] Well, there's a sense of it may do that there are creeds of conventions that might do that but

[00:07:36] Bottom line is that nobody just believes the bible we all believe the bible actually teaches something says something

[00:07:44] Communicates a particular message or set of messages and what we think the bible teaches that is really our creed

[00:07:51] Or our confession

[00:07:53] Think about

[00:07:54] Cermont's very few churches. No churches are which i'm aware

[00:07:58] Does the minister simply stand up on a sunday and read the bible?

[00:08:02] He preaches from the bible as well and nobody says in those situations

[00:08:06] Well, hang on a minute the the preacher is compromising the unique authority of scripture by explaining it to us

[00:08:13] No, we all understand that that's an absolutely important thing

[00:08:17] To do

[00:08:18] So when somebody says or acts as if they have no creed but the bible

[00:08:21] My thinking is that they may well be very sincere in what they're saying

[00:08:25] And I think what they're saying and trying to do there is preserve the unique authority of scripture

[00:08:30] But in practice, they do have a creed. They do have a confession

[00:08:34] It's just that they're not willing to write it down and let other people scrutinize it

[00:08:39] And what do you think is the impetus behind that?

[00:08:43] I think it's a desire to make sure that scripture is not eclipsed

[00:08:48] By some other document that's put up on a level with it

[00:08:51] And I think that's a legitimate concern to have I just think it's a misguided one ultimately

[00:08:57] But I think it's in the best scenarios

[00:09:00] The Protestant principle of scripture alone and the unique authority of scripture

[00:09:04] Makes a lot of evangelical people

[00:09:07] Suspicious or wary of any other document that might they feel might creep into church life and become a

[00:09:14] Sort of prior framework

[00:09:16] Into which you have to shoe-haul on the teaching of scripture

[00:09:20] Yeah, it seems that many evangelicals, you know would have oftentimes on their website like a statement

[00:09:27] Of faith which in a way is kind of like a brief

[00:09:31] Confession

[00:09:32] What do you think is is lacking in something like that as compared to a historical confession?

[00:09:37] Well, first of all, I certainly think that's a good thing when when you do it does actually state what it believes up front

[00:09:43] However minimally that's better than nothing. That's a good thing. I think where my concerns would lie is that

[00:09:50] Christian doctrine typically

[00:09:52] You know as individuals when you first become a Christian you believe very little and you slowly but surely build up what you

[00:09:57] what you understand to be the christian faith, but

[00:10:00] The responsibility to have the church as a body is different from that of individuals the church is

[00:10:05] Responsible for communicating the faith in a stable form from generation to generation

[00:10:11] And one of the things about the christian faith is it's actually quite complex and by complex. I mean

[00:10:17] doctrines connect to each other

[00:10:19] So that if you alter one doctrine it tends to require you to alter other doctrines as well

[00:10:25] A very brief statements of faith often don't make it very clear what the interconnections they are

[00:10:31] The doctrine of the trinity with the doctrine of the incarnation

[00:10:34] Is and certainly when you move into ethical areas we get into even more

[00:10:40] problems there

[00:10:41] One example I would use is the debate about gay marriage

[00:10:45] A lot of churches that only had a seven eight ten twelve point

[00:10:49] doctrinal statement suddenly found themselves

[00:10:53] Being challenged about their view on marriage

[00:10:56] Having nowhere to go. Okay. Well the minister but we don't actually have it written anywhere

[00:11:01] What our view of marriage is what we think the bible teaches

[00:11:04] Whereas most of the historic confessions of faith because they cover all the bases because they're pretty elaborate

[00:11:10] They already had statements on marriage

[00:11:13] That allowed the church to handle

[00:11:16] Fairly efficiently and effectively the sort of challenge that was coming on that issue

[00:11:20] So I would say if your church is a ten point statement of faith, that is a great thing. That's a wonderful thing

[00:11:25] I want to affirm you for for having that for setting what you believe up front

[00:11:30] But I would also challenge you and say but it's 10 points enough

[00:11:34] What about the 11th point of doctrine or what about the connections between these points of doctrine?

[00:11:40] Let's make sure that our statements of faith do two things. They cover all the important bases

[00:11:45] And they also indicate through their structure how those important bases connect to each other and affect each other

[00:11:54] I noticed that there's a trend amongst many churches today who are willing to you know state outright what they believe to

[00:12:02] be kind of coming up with

[00:12:05] Position statements if you will position statements on racism position statements like you mentioned on on gay marriage things like that

[00:12:13] Do you think that that is adequate or do you think it's maybe maybe they're on it's unnecessary?

[00:12:19] It's already the work has already been done by a historic

[00:12:21] Yeah, that's an interesting question

[00:12:22] And I think I would want to make a distinction between a confession and a position statement here

[00:12:27] You know, let's take gay marriage. I'm a presbyterian

[00:12:31] I subscribe to think all the westman's confession of faith which is clear teaching on marriage set forth in the 17th century

[00:12:37] So obviously it it doesn't deal explicitly with the gay marriage issue

[00:12:41] But it's positive teaching about what the bible says. So by implication

[00:12:45] It excludes all of the false marriage options

[00:12:49] Anything that pretends to be marriage that isn't marriage like gay marriage is excluded are priori by the positive teaching

[00:12:56] Having said that it might be useful for

[00:12:59] pastors in my denomination

[00:13:01] To have explained to them how to apply the teaching of the confession

[00:13:06] In a pastoral context where say a gay couple have turned up at the door and asked if they could

[00:13:11] Rent the church building for a gay marriage

[00:13:13] And that's what I think position papers can be useful

[00:13:16] Where a denomination puts together a document that helps explain how its

[00:13:21] core

[00:13:22] positive presentation of the christian position

[00:13:25] Might apply to something that's popped up specifically in a local context

[00:13:30] Or a historical context

[00:13:32] What I think we need to be careful about is every time the world raises a new crazy question

[00:13:39] We add a point to our doctrinal statement or we add

[00:13:42] A paragraph to our confession because then we allow the world to set the agenda

[00:13:48] And I think we'll end up doing nothing but endlessly expanding our doctrinal statements

[00:13:54] If you've got a good positive statement of what say marriage is

[00:13:58] You don't need a paragraph

[00:14:01] Outlawing gay marriage, but what you might need is a position statement that just makes it really clear that this particular moment in time

[00:14:09] How this applies to say

[00:14:12] What the legislation in my state is or what the government is saying something like that I think can be very very helpful

[00:14:18] So I wouldn't want to be interpreted as saying if you've got a confession. That's all you need

[00:14:23] We still need men preaching sermons and applying the word on a weekly basis

[00:14:27] We may also need people writing books on particular issues or producing position statements on particular issues

[00:14:35] So obviously you're an advocate for

[00:14:38] creeds

[00:14:39] And confessions, but let me could I ask do you

[00:14:43] Do you think there are any shortcomings to holding really

[00:14:47] Fastly to a historical confession. I think there can be I mean there's always that danger of formalism

[00:14:53] There is the danger and you end up

[00:14:55] Thinking more highly of the confession in you the bible

[00:14:58] And I think that's a typical day. That's a danger that we find in a lot of areas of church life

[00:15:04] There's always a danger of regarding our minister as more authoritative than the bible though

[00:15:09] There is a temptation to formalism or to authoritarianism misplaced authoritarianism throughout christian structures

[00:15:17] So there's that temptation

[00:15:19] I and I think that's where

[00:15:22] The role of the minister and the elders is very important that elders need to demonstrate how to use

[00:15:28] Confessions in the life of the church without allowing those confessions to usurp or replace

[00:15:35] Scripture so for example when I was a pastor and I would preach

[00:15:39] And I might for example, I would expand if I was talking about I don't know

[00:15:44] Let's say the incarnation

[00:15:46] I might what I do is I would

[00:15:48] Preach from a passage of scripture that speaks of the incarnation

[00:15:51] I would expound the

[00:15:52] Incarnation in terms of the scriptural text and from the people and then towards the end I might say oh and by the way

[00:15:59] This is beautifully summarized for us

[00:16:02] In this part of a catechism or in this paragraph in the confession

[00:16:07] And what i'm doing there is two things one

[00:16:09] I'm encouraging people to think about the confession as a useful document

[00:16:14] But at the same time i'm also trying to show them that the confession itself

[00:16:19] Is a summary of scripture's tune

[00:16:22] Not something that stands above prior or separate from

[00:16:26] Scripture, so I think a lot of it comes down to

[00:16:29] you know

[00:16:30] The culture of the church and the culture of the church is shaped more than

[00:16:36] anything else

[00:16:37] By the approach of the elders and particularly the pastor in the way that he handles these kind of documents

[00:16:43] Issues

[00:16:45] Hmm. I did my master's in integrative theology

[00:16:48] And so I obviously tend to think a lot about

[00:16:52] Theological method and when it comes to theological method, you know one of the things we'd often talk about is

[00:16:57] You know giving scripture especially in a Protestant theological method

[00:17:01] We want to give scripture pride of place give it primacy

[00:17:05] And so I think that there could be somebody who you know thinking through the way that confessions work

[00:17:12] One of their

[00:17:13] Kind of red flags if you will or orange flags would be are we not then

[00:17:19] essentially putting a

[00:17:21] tradition of interpretation or perhaps reason

[00:17:24] above scripture and then

[00:17:27] Interpreting scripture through that

[00:17:29] Interpreted framework that's been developed historically

[00:17:33] Is that you know, are we are we actually

[00:17:36] At risk of doing something in our theological method that would

[00:17:41] Diminish the role of scripture and what would you say to that?

[00:17:44] Yeah, well first of all it's that's again. It could be a very real temptation

[00:17:49] It's not something that you can simply say no no will never be subject to that but I would say it's not unique to

[00:17:58] Confessions

[00:18:00] The minister's preaching, you know, I hope when I go to church on a Sunday and given

[00:18:05] The two ministers at my church. I'm confident they do this. I hope they consult

[00:18:10] their

[00:18:11] commentaries, I hope they consult their

[00:18:14] Systematic theologies. I hope that they when they're preparing their sermons

[00:18:17] They do it in dialogue with tradition in some way

[00:18:21] What I don't want my ministers doing is inventing Christianity the new every week

[00:18:26] In accordance with the levels of their own novel knowledge or ignorance

[00:18:29] Whether you look at it positively or negatively so I certainly think it's a danger, but I think we are

[00:18:36] historical beings we are

[00:18:38] Always indebted to those who've gone before the way I would sort of I would say push back on that

[00:18:43] But would say there's a sort of caveats on there. Well, first of all, yes be aware of the problem

[00:18:49] The Westminster Divines who put together the Westminster Confession. They're not infallible. It's possible

[00:18:54] They've made mistakes. So we need to be aware of that. Secondly

[00:18:58] tradition doesn't necessarily mean that we have some pro-custian bed

[00:19:03] Over which we have no say

[00:19:05] Weighing down upon us. We can constantly search the scriptures to see if these things are so

[00:19:11] I would also say that we the church is a historical

[00:19:15] Thing Paul talks about holding fast to the teaching

[00:19:20] Passing down the tradition of the apostles

[00:19:23] The church is

[00:19:25] tasked with passing on the gospel through history

[00:19:28] Holding faster forms of sound words. So we know that something akin to a confession

[00:19:35] Was there in Paul's mind right at the start? Maybe not as elaborate as we have them but that principle of hey

[00:19:42] We have to have forms of sound words and we need to hold fast them

[00:19:45] And that's how we pass the truth on from generation to generation

[00:19:49] That's a key part of Paul's own

[00:19:51] Artillery, if you like is he thinking about the fidelity of of the church

[00:19:56] I don't would also say, you know one of the questions

[00:19:58] You don't put it quite this way in your question

[00:20:01] But one of the pushbacks have sometimes had is from people who say, you know, but the bible is a story

[00:20:06] To use the sort of technical jargon the bible is redemptive historical

[00:20:11] And confessions by and large are not redemptive historical. That's that's not their thing

[00:20:16] And I would say again

[00:20:18] Yes, we have to respect the storyline of the bible

[00:20:22] But what the confessions are often doing is this, you know, the redemptive historical storyline

[00:20:27] points to the

[00:20:28] The particularities of the narrative

[00:20:32] What confessions are trying to do is draw out not the particulars

[00:20:37] Of the bible narrative

[00:20:39] But if you like the the things that unify the bible narrative like the being of god

[00:20:45] And we all want to say that okay the revelation of god

[00:20:48] Do you know it's opened up over time and the redemptive historical narrative, but it is the same god who's being revealed

[00:20:55] And it's useful to have that

[00:20:58] Fully orbed revealed doctrine of god

[00:21:01] Set forth for us in a good paragraph somewhere so that we can read okay

[00:21:05] Well when i'm reading Genesis I gotta remember

[00:21:08] This is the full picture of god that emerges and this will actually help me then

[00:21:13] With my redemptive historical approach because it will keep me anchored in the unity

[00:21:18] And I won't be in danger of ultimately doing

[00:21:21] In most extreme form doing something really silly like saying well the god of the old testament the god of the new testament

[00:21:26] It's two different gods, you know old testament god is horribly angry new testament god

[00:21:30] You know loves injured puppies etc etc. How do we hold the two together?

[00:21:35] I think confessions because they draw out things that may be missed by using a purely

[00:21:40] Redemptive historical approach can actually help ground

[00:21:45] That kind of narrative approach and something that gives the narrative

[00:21:49] An even greater coherence than we might otherwise have seen so gain nick you raise a very very legitimate

[00:21:55] Concern and I think it's something we need to be on the guard against but simply because it's a possible

[00:22:02] Difficulty or challenge or mistake. We shouldn't throw the whole baby out with the bath water

[00:22:06] We should do what we do better not stop doing it

[00:22:11] Yeah, no, that's great. Here's another maybe pushback that I hope will give you a chance to clarify something

[00:22:16] You say at one point that a robust confession acts as a gospel check is what you called it preventing

[00:22:23] The modern church from getting sidetracked by the controversies of the day

[00:22:28] However, one thing that comes to my mind is that

[00:22:31] I think that if you look at the swath of

[00:22:35] Confessional churches that exist we might call them like historic Protestant denominations

[00:22:40] It would seem that many of them at least the largest groups

[00:22:44] Have indeed been sidetracked by social issues liberal ideologies and all these things

[00:22:52] So if a robust confession is a protective measure

[00:22:57] Why hasn't it worked in regard to these other groups?

[00:23:00] Well, part of me wants to respond and say many if you take for example the pcusa

[00:23:04] It's just not being robustly confessional

[00:23:06] But when you look at how the confessions are honored and treated by denomination that gives you an idea as to how

[00:23:12] robust that

[00:23:13] Confessionalism in so I would certainly say

[00:23:16] Yep, maybe put it this way merely having a confession in your

[00:23:21] Official church handbook isn't going to protect you by itself

[00:23:26] You've got to have good men in office as well. You're gonna have you know, paul in the pastoral epistles when he's

[00:23:33] Speaking to timothy, you know, how do you guard the faith timothy after I've gone?

[00:23:38] Well, you need a former sound words and you need to appoint good men as elders and we need both so I don't know

[00:23:46] I think a good confession is a

[00:23:50] necessary precondition

[00:23:53] For long-term fidelity, but it's not a sufficient precondition for long-term fidelity. We also need the right people

[00:24:00] Applying that confession, but I still think it's it's useful

[00:24:06] You know if we've got that

[00:24:08] Again, I can't put my hand on my heart and say

[00:24:12] you know

[00:24:13] History is a process whereby the truth always rises to the top

[00:24:18] But I would say that if if you have a confession, let's you know, let's take a really extreme example

[00:24:23] Let's go back to a creed if you've got the nicene creed which is kind of finalized

[00:24:29] There's east west trouble a few centuries later, but it's kind of finalized in in three eight one

[00:24:34] If you've got a creed that christians are still reciting in church on a sunday

[00:24:40] over

[00:24:41] 1600 years later

[00:24:43] And you're still finding it feeds their souls

[00:24:46] And you're still finding that it gives them confidence in how God has revealed himself. I'd want to say

[00:24:53] That would give me pause for thought before I would dismiss it

[00:24:57] I want to say that that's clearly got hold of something that isn't simply

[00:25:02] Connected to the late fourth century

[00:25:05] It's touching something true

[00:25:07] That resonates in the 12th century in the 17th century in the 21st century

[00:25:12] The west minister confession of faith or the second london baptist confession of faith

[00:25:17] To 17th century confessions. Okay, that there are more recent vintage but even so

[00:25:23] If a confession is still resonating with people

[00:25:27] 400 350 400 years after it was composed

[00:25:31] That tells me something about it. It's it's not some

[00:25:36] Statement that was put together 25 years ago and people have already forgotten about because it was so tied to its times

[00:25:43] It's a confession that speaks beyond its times

[00:25:46] And there I'd want to say that's one of the reasons why I would say good robust

[00:25:50] Confessionism good man with a good confession

[00:25:54] Can at least

[00:25:55] Give us a perspective

[00:25:57] On what the bible teaches and what the bible considers to be important

[00:26:03] Yeah, I find it interesting that it would almost seem and maybe this just is a matter of the

[00:26:09] brevity of time

[00:26:11] But it would almost seem as if in our modern age

[00:26:14] In some ways it is these evangelical churches which have

[00:26:19] Been reticent to embrace or state a confession

[00:26:24] Who have been kind of the bulwark of protecting

[00:26:27] Christian orthodoxy in many areas, maybe geographic or otherwise

[00:26:32] And and so would you advocate for them?

[00:26:35] Number one, I guess just being honest and saying

[00:26:38] Be forthcoming about what you do

[00:26:41] Believe put it out there so that it can be scrutinized discussed and known

[00:26:46] Um

[00:26:47] Yeah, any other thoughts on that I would well first of all want to give thanks for those churches

[00:26:52] I I was

[00:26:53] Nurtured in you know in some of those churches myself over the years

[00:26:57] So very grateful for that and praise god that he keeps

[00:27:01] churches faithful

[00:27:03] You know as I've said just having a confession doesn't keep your faith

[00:27:07] Praise god where there'd been a local church or a group of local churches that remained faithful without necessarily having

[00:27:13] An articulate fully articulated confession

[00:27:16] I would if I was chatting to one of the leaders of those church

[00:27:19] I would want to say but you know if you have a confession

[00:27:23] It might actually help you continue to do this. It's not

[00:27:28] Okay, you remain faithful first bubble what confidence you have of the next generation

[00:27:32] Maybe you'll train them well

[00:27:34] But perhaps you could train them really well if you've got a confession

[00:27:38] So I would not deny that that's the case and I would always want to give thanks

[00:27:42] For churches like that. I think it's important to be one of my concerns writing the book

[00:27:46] Because a lot of confessional christians can take a very

[00:27:49] condescending attitude towards those who don't have confessions

[00:27:53] And I think that's very wrong. We should be grateful to our brothers and sisters who remain faithful

[00:27:57] Whatever their church quality might be

[00:28:01] But I would want to urge on them those things that you think are most valuable

[00:28:05] Is it possible that perhaps?

[00:28:08] Historic confession might enable you to to to maintain those things in a more straightforward manner as you go forward

[00:28:17] One final question for you one of the things you mentioned in the book is that there are

[00:28:22] places for

[00:28:24] You know letting secondary things necessarily not be

[00:28:28] Defined by a confession. So for example, you suggest that some secondary issues like

[00:28:34] baptism

[00:28:35] Eschatological timeline, etc views those perhaps should be addressed in your confession

[00:28:42] But other views like dress codes, etc should not so I guess my question is

[00:28:46] Where do you draw the line when it comes to secondary things? Yeah, it's an interesting question

[00:28:51] I said I actually wouldn't regard baptism as a secondary issue. I think it's pretty important

[00:28:54] So I mean it's a command in the new testament now we can disagree on how to interpret that but I I wouldn't want to

[00:29:01] Yeah, I might not put it at quite the level of the doctrine of trinity

[00:29:04] But I certainly wouldn't want to put it at the level of dress code either

[00:29:07] There's somewhere between

[00:29:08] Between the two and I think to for a church to be a church. It has to have a position on baptism walkway or the other

[00:29:16] Drawing line is difficult and I even within the confessions

[00:29:20] I would say there are ranks of doctrines

[00:29:22] So in the original version of the west most confession of faith it outlines its understanding of church and state

[00:29:29] That was actually removed in the american revision because it didn't really fit with the american circumstance. It's very specific to 17th century

[00:29:38] England where it was put together

[00:29:40] I would say when I would draw the line

[00:29:42] I mean there are two things I think there are two sets of doctors that all confessions need to cover

[00:29:47] They need to cover those doctrines that are necessary for the existence of the church

[00:29:52] And if you don't have a trinitarian doctrine of god, you don't have

[00:29:57] Proper incarnational Christology

[00:29:59] you don't have

[00:30:01] Anything you you do not exist as a church if you do not believe in the trinitarian god

[00:30:07] And you do not believe that christ is god incarnate

[00:30:12] Then it's done whatever else you are. You're not a christian church at that point

[00:30:16] But I think beyond that we also need doctrines outlaw that I would say

[00:30:20] Unnecessary for the well-being of the church

[00:30:23] And that's what I would say baptism needs to be defined because you've got to have a position on baptism

[00:30:30] You're either baptized infants and adults on professional faith or you don't baptize infants and only baptize on professional faith

[00:30:37] You've got to you've got to have a position if you say well, we really don't care then what you're saying is

[00:30:43] something that

[00:30:45] Jesus thinks is very important and paul thinks is very important for the church

[00:30:50] You're saying it's not very important at all and you just can't get away with that

[00:30:55] So I would say there are some things like that. I would say are necessary for

[00:30:58] The well-being of the church now that allows me to say i'm a i'm an infant Baptist

[00:31:03] I'm a presbyterian I can look at my baptist brothers and sisters and say I think you have churches

[00:31:09] Because you have the gospel there in your in your in your documents

[00:31:13] I don't think your churches are as well as they could be and then they would respond in kind

[00:31:18] It would be a tit for tat

[00:31:20] But where we disagree where I disagree with you know friend like my devil for example in washington dc

[00:31:27] Is over matters that pertain to the well-being of the church not the existence of the church when we get down a thing like dress code

[00:31:34] A church doesn't need to prescribe a dress code for its well-being. It may be that you know

[00:31:40] The minister might well teach from the pulpit that we you know

[00:31:43] We don't want people turning up in speedos every Sunday to worship something like that

[00:31:49] But we probably don't want to bother having in our confession

[00:31:53] Statements about clothing because the well-being of the church does not require those

[00:31:58] So I'd say to listeners hold those sort of three categories in mind

[00:32:02] Is it necessary for the mere existence of the church?

[00:32:06] Is it necessary for the well-being of the church or is it simply

[00:32:11] You know my church does not put worship times in the confession

[00:32:16] You know you can worship we could decide to worship at 9 30 in the morning or 11 30 in the morning

[00:32:22] We don't have to have a position on that for the well-being of the church to confessional level

[00:32:27] Use those three categories to think about where the limits of the confession lie

[00:32:32] Excellent. Well, dr. Sherman. Thank you so much for your time today

[00:32:35] Is there anywhere where people can keep up with you online?

[00:32:38] I do I I don't do social media or anything, but I do write a column every two weeks for first things

[00:32:46] It's an online they have a print magazine

[00:32:48] But I write for the online website first things.com

[00:32:52] And I also write every two weeks an opinion column for world magazine

[00:32:57] Which I think is

[00:32:59] Wng.org and if you go there you'll be able to connect to the the opinion section

[00:33:05] Excellent. Thank you so much. Thanks very much for having me

[00:33:10] Thanks for listening to this episode of theology for the people new episodes are released every wednesday

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[00:33:19] In the next episode, I'll be speaking with pastor michael pain about the topic of theological anthropology

[00:33:26] We will discuss what it means that we are created in the image of god

[00:33:29] And we'll discuss the implications that has for our identity

[00:33:34] sexuality and life

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