You Must Be a Good Listener in Order to Become a Great Speaker - Brian Synnott

[00:00:00] When I started working with the different Christian rehabs, there are very different catchments.

[00:00:05] And I started to find out that actually the job of a communicator is to communicate so that they hear. Not so that I speak well.

[00:00:15] That's right. So how can I hear them? How can I speak to them unless I've listened to them, unless I know them?

[00:00:30] And I've got a great conversation that I can't wait for you to listen to.

[00:00:34] I got to sit down with Brian Sinett. Brian is a man who has planted and pastored multiple churches in his native Ireland.

[00:00:45] He is a licensed counselor. He has focused on addiction recovery and counseling people through the painful walk of addiction

[00:00:56] and is about to enter into a prison ministry. And he'll talk about that in a few minutes in the actual conversation itself.

[00:01:06] He has been somebody that I have known for years and years, and he's very well respected in the core Christian community.

[00:01:15] And I was glad to be able to record this conversation. I guarantee that you are going to like it. I sure did.

[00:01:25] And you'll find out one of the reasons why I liked it so much as you continue to listen.

[00:01:31] All right, without any further ado, here's my conversation with Brian Sinett.

[00:01:35] Hey, welcome to the expositors collective podcast in person recording. I'm with my friend, my downstairs neighbor Brian Sinett. How are you?

[00:01:49] Hi, Dr. Brian Sinett. Thank you again. Good. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:01:53] Yeah, thank you indeed. Was it okay if I'm pleased? We'll edit it out when I don't call you Dr. Brian. Don't call me.

[00:01:59] I know that you insist. You insist. Okay.

[00:02:03] Forever in Dr. Brian. Yeah.

[00:02:07] So Brian, Brian, you work under underneath me. I have an office upstairs at the top of the YMCA. You have an office downstairs.

[00:02:15] We don't work for the same organization, but we share a building. Sure. And it's been a treat and you're on your way out.

[00:02:22] Yes, I'm on my way out. I'm just moving on from this department here, which has been helping young people in recovery and addiction and so forth training for employment to being a prison chaplain.

[00:02:33] Well, yeah, indeed. Out of the frying pan and into the prison. That's right. Yeah.

[00:02:40] Well, yeah. So I've you've literally been on my list of people that I want to interview for a long time.

[00:02:46] I showed it to you months ago. I have a list of homeboot and you've been on it for a while.

[00:02:51] And so since we're no longer going to be sharing a workspace and wanting to grab you. And I want to ask you about your first sermon.

[00:02:58] Yeah. So for the listeners, and I would have said this in the introduction. So you you formerly were a full-time pastor. And now you're a bivocational or how would you I guess explain your ministerial or let's even pulpit role these days?

[00:03:15] Yeah, I don't know. I do a lot of things. I think I'm on the same call that I was when I was pastoring a church, church planting.

[00:03:24] But the type of people that we attracted in the church were very broken people, people in addiction and so forth. So I'm doing that now outside the church.

[00:03:36] Reaching people in the community and in a closed community in the near future. So reaching people in that formerly I've worked with seven Christian rehab organizations as a therapist as a Christ center therapist.

[00:03:50] So kind of things just morphed as God calls us so that that's kind of the track that I've been on. Yeah, I forget your question.

[00:03:59] Well, we'll circle back to that. Yeah. So Brian, yeah, when was your first sermon that you ever preached?

[00:04:06] Okay, my first sermon was probably in 1986, 1987. When I was asked to preach in a youth group that we had that was about 45 of us.

[00:04:16] We had everyone was under the age of 20 and we had no pastor, no leadership of any learning at that stage.

[00:04:26] We had a clue and I had a clue. And my first sermon was on the text, neither a borrower nor a lender be.

[00:04:34] Oh, and it was a fabulous sermon except at the end someone tapped me on the shoulder and said that's actually Shakespeare.

[00:04:43] That's why so that's where I started at 16 years of age. Yeah, as you said that, I was like quickly skating in my head.

[00:04:51] Because Romans 13 says, oh, nobody knows nothing except for love. Yeah, did you kind of riff on that? Oh gosh, no.

[00:04:57] Really? I had it to the text and my heart. And so that was my first.

[00:05:04] And it's interesting because these useful mistakes are very good because it etched something in my head is that you need to be preaching the Bible.

[00:05:12] Yeah, that's kind of a baseline assumption we have here.

[00:05:16] So the first time I was really asked to preach, yeah, I preached on collections one.

[00:05:21] Okay.

[00:05:22] And once 16, you know, you've been rescued from the kingdom of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of his dear son who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.

[00:05:31] I think that's a bit better than Shakespeare is.

[00:05:33] Okay, can we go back a little bit? Yeah.

[00:05:35] What made you think that that was a Bible verse or worth talking about?

[00:05:39] Or like it was in King James language. Yeah.

[00:05:42] And I had just become a Christian maybe a year before that.

[00:05:45] And I'm probably on a bit of an egoistic kind of Ron as well.

[00:05:51] Yeah, didn't felt very inferior in the presence of other Christians and so forth.

[00:05:56] So that was in my head, but I was in school at the time.

[00:05:59] So I probably learned that during during the week.

[00:06:01] Okay, it's cool.

[00:06:02] And just went for it.

[00:06:03] Matt, I didn't have the text open which is another thing that's been etched in my mind since teach people the Bible.

[00:06:11] Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. That's that's great.

[00:06:14] I'm glad that you've moved past that.

[00:06:16] I'm right.

[00:06:17] Yeah, tell me about this the second one or yeah, might we say the first one?

[00:06:21] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:22] Well, the first one was interesting because I started in a kind of a hypercarsmatic youth group and that didn't have the Bible open all the time.

[00:06:32] It did some of the time in fairness.

[00:06:34] And then I moved geographically to Westford.

[00:06:38] And the only church or the only church that I was aware of, there's probably maybe one other at the time in the country that will show you the change that's happening on Ireland.

[00:06:48] Was a non-penta costly church.

[00:06:51] It was an evangelical cessationist might be a bit of a stretch.

[00:06:56] But but yeah, kind of kind of cessationist.

[00:07:00] So the pastor asked me to preach and I said, okay, what do you want me to preach on? And he said, well, you're the Penta costume.

[00:07:07] So you go and seek God and find out what the Lord wants you to preach on, which was flattering but very challenging at the same time.

[00:07:17] So that's what I preach on Colossians one.

[00:07:20] And the preparation it took me six weeks to prepare for that.

[00:07:24] And the pivotal moment in that was when I was sitting in my flat.

[00:07:28] I was a smoker at the time and I tried to give up smoking several times and I couldn't.

[00:07:35] So I sympathize with those people who are on substances that they're not able to fulfill, they're not able to put down.

[00:07:43] So I asked the Lord which is a really good idea when you're asked to preach what would you like me to preach on?

[00:07:48] And the Lord spoke to me really clearly, Mike, really, really clearly.

[00:07:54] He said, I want you to preach on how to give up smoking which was a challenge.

[00:08:00] And he said it to me while I had a cigarette in my hand.

[00:08:04] And I remember saying that's kind of difficult, Lord.

[00:08:07] And then he spoke to me a second time and I'm not one of these people that comes up with this stuff all the time but he did speak to me a second time.

[00:08:13] And he said you can put the cigarette out now.

[00:08:16] And I did. And they're gone for me ever since.

[00:08:19] Which is fabulous.

[00:08:22] And I preached on the uncollessions then for he rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his dear son who purchased our freedom and forgives her sins.

[00:08:34] Probably not the best to Jesus of that person or you know that has been but at the same time it was very, very real and true for me.

[00:08:43] The difficulty was it wasn't very real and true for the congregation because they knew I was a chain smoker.

[00:08:50] Right. So they were laughing as I was preaching but I had a boldness because I knew God had spoken and they thought I was on some kind of charismatic hyper trip, you know which does happen.

[00:09:03] And but actually that was it.

[00:09:07] I preached and I was annoyed by them that they didn't understand what I was doing and I think we can understand that as preachers sometimes a bit of frustration.

[00:09:15] Come on come with me on this but actually the evidence was there after that the cigarettes were gone.

[00:09:21] Yeah and I'm very grateful for that.

[00:09:24] So the notion of this is how you give up cigarettes like you you kept that kind of micro focused on that.

[00:09:32] Okay so rather than then saying like here's here's how to break habits in our lives.

[00:09:36] Here's here's since crisis raised here's what it looks like in our life.

[00:09:40] Yeah I mean I'm in 50s now I was probably early 20s then.

[00:09:44] Yeah I had never had a pastor up to that point up to maybe three or four months before that and never had any guidance or anything like that.

[00:09:51] So all I was used to was the tapes or the downloads as we say now you know of particular preachers who's looking back as theology wasn't great.

[00:10:00] But very applied kind of wisdom so that was the model I took what I was listening to that's what I took.

[00:10:09] Okay and you haven't smoked since then.

[00:10:12] I smoked once when I had an argument with my wife.

[00:10:16] Yeah and then some doubt actually I don't like these things anymore so they're gone.

[00:10:22] And would you are smoking cigarettes sinful or not for you or it's not the best?

[00:10:29] Well for me it's Egypt okay you know I mean I don't think we need to get hung up on things like that.

[00:10:35] I think it's actually quite damaging sometimes when we do because we're all in our particular journey and I'm not all going liberal here.

[00:10:41] But we all start in different places.

[00:10:43] Yeah and I think our personal leading of God and our personal devotion to Christ he's the one that changes us is Brian sinful yes all the time actually but he's covered by the grace of Christ and cleansed.

[00:11:00] So yeah yeah so I because I deal with addiction and very very broken people I don't tend to get into the is this sinful or is that not sinful it's.

[00:11:10] And doing the best I know by the grace of God okay yeah thank you I'm trying to to ambush you or no no no absolutely and it's good question.

[00:11:17] Okay well then I guess kind of back on topic of our actual podcast like how have you grown as a preacher or preacher since then.

[00:11:24] It seemed like there's been monumental change from that first sermon to the second sermon.

[00:11:28] Yeah but then what about from the second up until the thousandth sermon yeah what have been the growth and changes since then.

[00:11:33] Yeah actually Mike I haven't said this to you but it was actually you what you made one of the seismic changes to my ministry.

[00:11:41] No no I am grinning so much.

[00:11:43] Oh absolutely really yes because someone told me about Calvary Chapel and cork that the guy is preaching verse by verse precept by precept and going book by book.

[00:11:54] And I knew that the assemblies of God used to have a checklist of that they'd have to hand in every year that they preach the whole council of God but I thought your model was better.

[00:12:06] So that was one of the seismic jumps and I took that on and I've preached book by book while I was preaching every week that's what I did.

[00:12:16] Wow except for the odd topic that was maybe needed to be dealt with.

[00:12:19] I'm your smell team right now.

[00:12:22] Yeah there you go.

[00:12:23] Yeah I should have said that two years ago but I didn't want to encourage you too much actually I'd forgotten.

[00:12:28] No I have to buy a new hat because many people are swollen so much.

[00:12:32] That's great when when was that because I've been here for a long time these days.

[00:12:37] So if I finished full time to 15 it must have been around 2000 would you have been here 2008 you would have been here since.

[00:12:46] Oh you were offered by the river and you were recording your stuff and I was listening to your stuff.

[00:12:51] Really how about this there you go wow yeah well thanks for coming on.

[00:12:55] I think we're done.

[00:12:57] That's really great.

[00:13:00] What was it like to try it for the first time?

[00:13:05] Did it?

[00:13:06] No no no I'm preaching exogenically through a book.

[00:13:10] What was the first book series that you started?

[00:13:13] We had a difficulty at the time.

[00:13:15] I don't know if it affected the city but we had a difficulty at the time with some geodosers in the sense that there was people who were not messianic Jews

[00:13:25] and were on the teaching circuit in the area.

[00:13:28] You remember that?

[00:13:30] Yeah and when does Arctrian come to the city?

[00:13:33] Absolutely.

[00:13:34] Like every city and so I think the first might have been the book of Hebrews for that reason.

[00:13:40] Really?

[00:13:41] Yeah I could have picked Galatians it would have been easier pick but I went through and actually you know the exposing of the scripture if I can phrase it that way.

[00:13:51] Actually deals with the error very very well.

[00:13:55] You don't have to fight the darkness in a sense you just present the light no you deal with the issues as you're going along as well but the exposure of Christ of scripture is educating the people and that's what I did and I felt I needed to do that because it was a very strong wind of doctrine of false doctrine at that time for us as a church

[00:14:14] and we would have lost some people to that and I just needed to really present that I was being loyal to scripture.

[00:14:21] Yeah consistently so vitally important actually.

[00:14:27] Yeah, vitally important.

[00:14:28] I remember that time and actually you know what we used to do back then as I used to teach New Testament on Sunday and then had a Wednesday night old testament thing going through actually Genesis all the way to Deuteronomy, Gatorra.

[00:14:41] And we were a very small church at that time but we had a lot of Wednesday night visitors because there was this interest in Judaism and Old Testament stuff and you know oh we hear you actually kind of teach through it because there was this attraction of these folks that were showing up and they had all this knowledge of the Old Testament where most people most Christians here didn't know about that.

[00:15:03] No, and it was all new. It was fascinating. Yeah, intriguing. And so how good it is to just like I don't know, inoculate people against that by giving kind of a broad swath.

[00:15:13] Yeah, I didn't knew Testament interpretation of the Old Testament.

[00:15:16] Yeah, crucial. Yeah.

[00:15:18] So you did Hebrews what did you do next?

[00:15:21] Well, well I I'd say I did Colossians had a Colossians, Matthew did most of the gospels and John.

[00:15:30] The best series for me of my how many years in ministry know, and 30 years something like that was the book of Revelation.

[00:15:42] Oh really? Really?

[00:15:44] And I did it because I was forgive me you know I'm a little bit blunt I was fed up in the not cases.

[00:15:51] I was fed up of sensationalism and I said this is a book I've been avoiding because of that.

[00:15:56] So I did the series on a Sunday morning which I wouldn't advise actually because it is an extreme book.

[00:16:04] And I think it's meat. It's for people who understand the word and that.

[00:16:08] And we did that for nine months.

[00:16:12] Yeah, really? But I went in there looking for Christ.

[00:16:15] Yeah. And I have a revelation of Christ now because of that series that I definitely didn't have beforehand that he is the exalted Almighty.

[00:16:24] Yeah, and he is glorious.

[00:16:26] And it's a good strong place, particularly in the world we're living in now which is changing drastically.

[00:16:31] So I didn't go into the timelines and the eschatology so much.

[00:16:35] I just did what my colleague got to the city did verse by verse chapter by chapter.

[00:16:40] And follow down. I know yeah, yeah, that's wonderful.

[00:16:44] Someone said it's not this is not original to me but yeah a lot of times people look to revelation and they're searching for the antichrist.

[00:16:50] Yeah, but it's actually about Jesus Christ.

[00:16:52] That's right.

[00:16:53] And it's not about six six six. It's about holy holy holy.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:57] And that we'll find if we're looking for Jesus he's actually.

[00:17:00] And absolutely.

[00:17:02] And then I think I think there's like one or two chapters where like we're worship of Jesus isn't mentioned.

[00:17:06] It's a it's a him book of worship to the risen Jesus more than it is looking for the antichrist and the archivist definitely.

[00:17:13] Yeah, we need to be quite centric in our approach to the scripture because the scripture is that.

[00:17:18] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:19] Wow.

[00:17:20] Okay. Hey so that's great.

[00:17:22] I'm still buzzing.

[00:17:24] But again, of course somebody showed me and it's just like I actually think it's the easiest way to do it is what I think.

[00:17:31] Yes.

[00:17:32] Do you think that?

[00:17:33] Yeah, I was kind of like saved into this model.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:37] Like first preacher I consistently sat under with Danny Ramos and he was actually preaching chapter by chapter through revelation.

[00:17:44] And then so many other things but like this is kind of what I became a Christian into.

[00:17:49] Yeah.

[00:17:50] And so for me, this is kind of natural.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] So it was for you as the opposite with a more kind of a topical textual approach switching over.

[00:17:58] Yeah, there was a real purpose to it as well though in that I have a slight bit of dyspraxia.

[00:18:02] Okay, okay.

[00:18:03] So I find sermonoclines.

[00:18:06] Exasperatingly difficult.

[00:18:07] Okay.

[00:18:08] Do you want to define dyspraxia in case people want to?

[00:18:10] And I find it hard to get the ducks in a row.

[00:18:12] Okay.

[00:18:13] I deal with extremely broken people at very extreme level.

[00:18:16] I would prefer to deal with some suicidal suicidal than tidy the living room.

[00:18:20] Okay.

[00:18:21] I will find that less stressful.

[00:18:22] Okay.

[00:18:23] So to sit down and say this is my outline.

[00:18:25] Are you seeing some of my sermonocles?

[00:18:27] Yes.

[00:18:28] It's interesting.

[00:18:29] It isn't.

[00:18:30] It is.

[00:18:31] It's a legend of pages.

[00:18:32] It's from all the, yeah.

[00:18:34] Yeah.

[00:18:35] And that's my mind.

[00:18:36] So to say to me, can you preach on this outline that is in scripture is a gift to me?

[00:18:44] Actually.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:46] So I have found that personally very.

[00:18:47] So I had my own interest in it as well.

[00:18:49] Yeah.

[00:18:50] So that that's one of the reasons it suits me very, very well.

[00:18:54] All right.

[00:18:55] Yeah.

[00:18:56] Okay.

[00:18:57] So I do want to talk about that transition, another transition from preaching weekend and

[00:19:02] week out to now being occasional.

[00:19:04] Yeah.

[00:19:05] But before, before I get there, I want to ask about like what's your best sermon that you

[00:19:09] think you have reprieved?

[00:19:10] And what's the worst?

[00:19:11] And what's the difference between those?

[00:19:14] Okay.

[00:19:15] The best sermons that I've preached.

[00:19:19] And I don't mean this in a throwaway.

[00:19:24] I mean, there's a lot of difference between these two.

[00:19:31] And it's probably that.

[00:19:32] And I think that's the difference between those two things.

[00:19:35] And I think it's the most important thing to do is to get back to these three things that

[00:19:39] I've done in my life.

[00:19:40] I've done this in my life.

[00:19:42] And I'm not just saying, well, you know, I've done this in my life.

[00:19:47] I've done this in my life.

[00:19:49] I've got to go to the page.

[00:19:53] The worst sermon, I think you asked that as well.

[00:19:56] And actually it's a specific sermon.

[00:19:58] I preached in Bournemouth in the Wheel of Church in England while I was in college.

[00:20:02] And it was a dramatic sermon in the sense that, and it was an assignment.

[00:20:08] It was to actually have part of a drama in the sermon where I cleared the temple.

[00:20:14] And I had a bit of an anger issue at the time.

[00:20:16] So I was able to do that.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] I cried, but I certainly, you know, I put chairs around the stage and did all that kind

[00:20:22] of stuff.

[00:20:23] And someone came up to me at the end.

[00:20:25] And I thought I was getting, you know, 50 pounds of a handshake, but actually it was

[00:20:30] a list of errors that I had made.

[00:20:32] Oh yeah, really?

[00:20:33] Okay.

[00:20:34] And it floored me.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:36] But then four years later, maybe more, someone came up to me in a conference and said,

[00:20:43] you preached a sermon in Bournemouth that I will never forget.

[00:20:46] And on that day, God called me to Bible college.

[00:20:49] Oh.

[00:20:50] Strange.

[00:20:51] So the worst and the best.

[00:20:53] Yes, yes, all in one.

[00:20:55] Yes.

[00:20:56] You know, and therefore like back for that dramatic sermon, I did prepare, I did the work

[00:21:03] on the text that I needed to do.

[00:21:05] And I think that's the key always.

[00:21:08] But we are essentially depending on the work of the Holy Spirit to touch people's lives

[00:21:13] with the Word of God.

[00:21:16] So the best ones have been depending on God.

[00:21:20] And the worst has been depending on God, and they've come out.

[00:21:24] So it's probably not the answers you were expecting.

[00:21:26] Sure.

[00:21:27] Yeah.

[00:21:28] But that certainly is my experience that when I'm weak, he's very, very strong.

[00:21:34] And that has been my experience.

[00:21:36] Yeah.

[00:21:37] Okay.

[00:21:38] Well yeah, well thanks for that.

[00:21:39] Yeah, surprising.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:41] God is, he's a like tricky trick.

[00:21:45] Is that okay?

[00:21:46] We're just to say I had an American friend of mine.

[00:21:48] So I have to bring blame the Americans for this.

[00:21:50] And he says, Brian God is weird.

[00:21:52] Okay.

[00:21:53] I don't know what the definition of weird is.

[00:21:55] Yeah.

[00:21:56] But his ways are not our way.

[00:21:58] Yes.

[00:21:59] I'm mildly uncomfortable with tricky and I'm not into weird.

[00:22:03] But he definitely does his own thing.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] And he's glorified in it all.

[00:22:09] And I'm extremely grateful for that.

[00:22:11] Yeah.

[00:22:12] That he would choose someone like me who is an nobody, you know?

[00:22:17] And use me as a channel of communication to another human being is just astounded.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:24] Yeah.

[00:22:25] Yeah.

[00:22:26] Well thanks.

[00:22:27] So yeah, on to what I was, yeah.

[00:22:29] The next question.

[00:22:30] Yeah.

[00:22:31] So you've gone from preaching almost every week to the now kind of transitioning into

[00:22:37] preaching a couple times a year.

[00:22:39] Yeah, maybe three or four times a year.

[00:22:41] Three or four times a year.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:44] What's that like on the one hand in your heart and soul?

[00:22:48] And then also what's it like in the different preparation process?

[00:22:52] I miss it.

[00:22:53] Okay.

[00:22:54] I do.

[00:22:55] I miss the mornings of just being immersed in the scripture.

[00:22:59] I do miss that.

[00:23:01] But I've taken up more of a discipline of that in my private life.

[00:23:06] But there is a huge advantage to it because I was feeling like a sermon machine as well

[00:23:12] that I had to tranche out another sermon.

[00:23:14] Whereas now I could be preaching in the same church or I could be preaching in other churches

[00:23:21] and I get time to immerse myself in a piece of scripture.

[00:23:27] So I can, I might have taken three or four days before to prepare.

[00:23:31] Now I can take three weeks.

[00:23:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:33] Yes.

[00:23:34] Yeah.

[00:23:35] I can be immersed.

[00:23:36] And I love that principle that I've always used, but now I can use better is just meditating

[00:23:42] on the word.

[00:23:43] You know, yes, I use the commentary.

[00:23:44] Yes, I do.

[00:23:45] Yes, I do all of that.

[00:23:47] But just to meditate and think on the word of God, the very best sermons come from there

[00:23:53] I think.

[00:23:54] Yeah.

[00:23:55] Yeah.

[00:23:56] So that's, yeah, that's probably answers your question.

[00:24:00] I hope it does.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:02] In 2023, you preached one sermon at Calvary Quark and then I think a few at your own church.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:10] And you were assigned or I requested you to preach one Corinthians four.

[00:24:16] And yeah, you had maybe what a month's notice possibly more?

[00:24:20] It's something like that anyway.

[00:24:23] And yeah, there was a real attentiveness to it.

[00:24:25] You can ask some even like specific questions about like the life of the church.

[00:24:31] And so yeah, you, you, yeah, you don't attend Calvary.

[00:24:34] But you cared about people of Calvary and you wanted to know how you could serve them

[00:24:37] by teaching this passage as good as you could.

[00:24:42] And also something that I remember, yeah, is I asked for your notes so that I can make slides

[00:24:46] for you.

[00:24:47] And as they mentioned, young your notes are just to me, haphazard, chaotic, scribbled arrows.

[00:24:55] Try living with me.

[00:24:57] No thanks.

[00:24:58] No thanks.

[00:25:00] I'd be the one smoking cigarettes.

[00:25:05] So that's come from yeah, so let's say Corinthians four.

[00:25:10] Yeah, so you spent time trying to meditate on it.

[00:25:12] Yes.

[00:25:13] And then maybe even imagine what the church congregation is like that you're not a part of but

[00:25:17] you want to be.

[00:25:18] What was that process like?

[00:25:20] Yeah, I mean, where that came from if I can put it in context is I've preached in a church

[00:25:25] that I've planted two churches that have planted and one transplanted one planted.

[00:25:30] And I knew I knew my congregation very well, you know your congregation very well.

[00:25:34] But when I started working with the different Christian rehabs, there are very different

[00:25:37] catchments.

[00:25:39] And I started to find out that actually the job of a communicator is to communicate so

[00:25:45] that they hear not so that I speak well, that's right.

[00:25:48] That's right.

[00:25:49] So how can I hear them?

[00:25:53] How can I speak to them unless I've listened to them?

[00:25:54] Unless I know them.

[00:25:56] And the only way I can do that is ask the pastor what's kind of the profile so in ballmouth,

[00:26:01] for instance, I got terribly wrong.

[00:26:04] They were all solicitors and high professionals if that had been, forgive me, a law class type

[00:26:12] church they would love that.

[00:26:13] But actually the solicitors and the lawyers and the barristers which a lot of them were

[00:26:18] they don't appreciate that type of communication.

[00:26:20] And that's again getting your audience, getting the ear of your audience.

[00:26:24] Very very important.

[00:26:25] Right?

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:28] And like the feedback that I got on that people also felt that it, like, forgive me that

[00:26:38] I can't quote it exactly right, it was 10 months ago or nine.

[00:26:44] But yeah, people were saying that it felt far more like preachy than I usually am.

[00:26:52] And they meant it in kind of a good way.

[00:26:54] It's kind of like, yeah, kind of apostolic, pentacostal.

[00:26:58] Like I've got a word for you while still being exogetical and maybe, yeah, maybe I'm

[00:27:05] just not that.

[00:27:07] It's different.

[00:27:08] Like I'm a preacher.

[00:27:09] Yeah, I'm not preaching from you.

[00:27:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:14] I think for me that is the setting I work in.

[00:27:17] Okay.

[00:27:18] You know, I've preached what I was with the rehabs.

[00:27:21] I would preach actually four or five pounds a week.

[00:27:25] Now I would be using the same material a lot of the time.

[00:27:27] Sure.

[00:27:28] But I had to keep them awake.

[00:27:29] Yeah.

[00:27:30] And I had to make this extremely relevant or they weren't going to listen.

[00:27:33] And I've actually found that very helpful and I've kept that.

[00:27:38] And it's probably my personality as well.

[00:27:40] Probably different that way in that sense.

[00:27:44] So, but I'm really, I'm always looking for the person who is least interested in what

[00:27:49] I'm saying.

[00:27:50] Oh, and I speak to them.

[00:27:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:52] That's the challenge, isn't it?

[00:27:54] You know, the elders in the front are going to be interested.

[00:27:57] But the guy whose his wife has dragged him to church, that's the guy I'm speaking.

[00:28:02] I'm extremely missionally.

[00:28:03] You see, this is the, so that's who I'm reaching.

[00:28:06] I'm not really interested in your elders.

[00:28:08] What a good point.

[00:28:09] What a good point.

[00:28:10] Yeah, because the temptation is to find who's the most interested in the room.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:14] Because they're giving you the nonverbal feedback and you feel good talking to them.

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:19] They probably read the passage in advance.

[00:28:21] They can't wait to go home and apply it.

[00:28:23] But on the one hand, they'll be okay no matter what.

[00:28:26] They'll be okay no matter what.

[00:28:28] It's yeah.

[00:28:29] This is the one shot for that guy that's coming.

[00:28:32] And there might be an argument at the end of church for that guy.

[00:28:35] So again, I'm extremely emotional.

[00:28:39] So that's the way I think when I'm preaching.

[00:28:40] I really don't care what your elders think.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] I mean, I want to be, you know, this is the one that's trying to like to do the most actually.

[00:28:48] You take that back right?

[00:28:50] Sorry.

[00:28:51] And even as you're talking, I'm trying to articulate even better a kind of what they meant,

[00:28:57] what someone meant by that preachy thing.

[00:28:58] It was that you had, you understood Corinthians 4.

[00:29:01] You communicated Corinthians 4.

[00:29:03] But then it was almost like you had a message for them.

[00:29:08] It's, we're teaching the passage and then here's something maybe you didn't use this language,

[00:29:13] but, you know, but God put this on your heart to communicate to them.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:17] You didn't use that.

[00:29:18] And sometimes I think you did because it was meditation all the time.

[00:29:21] Okay.

[00:29:22] Yeah.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:24] So it was like, your job in the pulpit was not just to explain these 16 verses.

[00:29:27] Your job was to give a sense of the reading and then apply it to these people.

[00:29:32] Yeah, this is extremely relevant to you.

[00:29:35] And I think that's the, the high side of bivocational because I'm coming in again on Monday morning

[00:29:39] to people who do not and are not interested in Christ, not all of them, but most of them.

[00:29:44] And so I have to make the, it's kind of incarnational.

[00:29:48] I'm going to make this sermon gritty to work with real life on a Monday morning for you

[00:29:55] at work.

[00:29:56] That kind of approach.

[00:29:57] And bivocations very helpful for me in that, you know, because it's my life as well.

[00:30:01] Yes.

[00:30:02] And yeah.

[00:30:03] Yeah.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] And the more I do this full time, you know, I'm 20 years in.

[00:30:11] The, and with continued education or this like the more, I might be interested in how

[00:30:18] NT right interacts with a different scholar about this and the different views that are

[00:30:23] out there on this.

[00:30:25] And how Christ asked them, you know, yeah, it's so interesting to me.

[00:30:30] Yeah.

[00:30:31] It's not interesting to anybody else.

[00:30:33] I had a guy in the church who came out of loyalty to his wife.

[00:30:37] Okay.

[00:30:38] He was not a Christian, but he was a good friend.

[00:30:41] Became a good friend.

[00:30:42] And he came to me one day and he said, Brian, there's some words you use and I have no idea

[00:30:46] what they mean.

[00:30:48] And it was like, oh my gosh, what am I doing?

[00:30:50] Yeah.

[00:30:51] So I asked him to make a list.

[00:30:52] I said every time you hear a word that you don't understand right or down, I need to know

[00:30:56] it.

[00:30:57] Right.

[00:30:58] Like what is redemption?

[00:30:59] You know, what does preparation, all those things.

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:03] We need to be in, I don't know if I'm using that word correctly because I don't have

[00:31:08] time to look it up.

[00:31:09] That's the downside of being an emotional, but yeah, I need to be incarnational to feed

[00:31:13] on the ground.

[00:31:14] Yeah.

[00:31:15] This has to be relevant to people when they're leaving.

[00:31:17] Otherwise it's just in that little bubble that Christian moment that we have.

[00:31:21] Yeah.

[00:31:22] And so what would you say to other, yeah, bi-vocational preachers that are listening?

[00:31:27] You know, from what I know from the stats there's a lot of people who listen who are not

[00:31:31] in my position of doing this gig full time.

[00:31:35] Yeah.

[00:31:36] And you've been there and now you're presently not.

[00:31:38] What do they need to know?

[00:31:41] The key for me is, and what I miss, is the meditation and scripture.

[00:31:46] Okay.

[00:31:47] So what I've done now is that I've slowed down a lot and I will meditate on the piece of

[00:31:53] scripture.

[00:31:54] I know the overall story of scripture, which is incredibly important because you can't

[00:31:58] really preach well unless you know the overview of what scripture is about it.

[00:32:03] But I do know that.

[00:32:04] And not saying I know it brilliantly, but I definitely know it and I've certainly tried

[00:32:08] all these years to do that.

[00:32:10] And now I've slowed down and I'll take a piece of scripture for a week.

[00:32:14] It is like sermon preparation again and I listened to some, you had a chap there that

[00:32:19] you recommended that I listen to.

[00:32:22] He was excellent.

[00:32:24] His name escapes me.

[00:32:27] You forwarded on a friend of yours that does some expository preaching and stuff.

[00:32:31] And I listened to him, I thought he was excellent.

[00:32:33] Another source that I've listened to for a long, long time is Dalis, believers, Chaplin

[00:32:39] Dalis.

[00:32:40] Okay.

[00:32:41] And they're not preaching.

[00:32:43] They're doing what you're doing.

[00:32:45] And they're just exposing the scripture and I love it.

[00:32:49] I listen to it on the way to work when I'm on my own in the car.

[00:32:53] And again, I'm just immersing myself in scripture but not rapidly trying to get through it because

[00:32:58] then I'm finding it's not actually getting into me.

[00:33:02] So I've slowed down a lot.

[00:33:04] And I enjoy that.

[00:33:05] I enjoy that.

[00:33:07] Yeah.

[00:33:09] And so that's, I'm trying to, on the one hand, that's something that you miss.

[00:33:15] It also sounds like you're still doing it because I miss it.

[00:33:19] I'm still doing it.

[00:33:20] Yeah, just at a different pace.

[00:33:22] Okay.

[00:33:23] And I'm the challenge of having to deliver something on Sunday isn't there and that takes

[00:33:28] the discipline away a bit actually.

[00:33:31] But I know that there is nothing more than Brian likes than sitting down with the scripture

[00:33:38] in the living room and just immersing himself in that for an hour or two.

[00:33:42] Yeah, right.

[00:33:43] Because I've done it for 20 years, you know.

[00:33:46] But the word of God feeds me.

[00:33:49] It feeds me well.

[00:33:52] So that's, yeah, that's, that's, I miss it but I'm still doing it.

[00:33:56] And that regards, yeah.

[00:33:58] Okay.

[00:33:59] And I think if you wouldn't do it, you know, the good questions, if you want a lot of

[00:34:01] it, is that translation to Americanism, the lot of it?

[00:34:03] Does it?

[00:34:04] Yeah.

[00:34:05] Yeah.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] Exactly.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] So if you want the lot of what would you spend your life doing?

[00:34:11] Well, apart from having a few yards and different things, I definitely would be have the time

[00:34:17] to do that.

[00:34:18] And I would take the time to do that because I love doing that.

[00:34:21] And therefore, if you love doing that, if you want the lot of it, then I think that transfers

[00:34:25] into your normal life and should do.

[00:34:28] And then you have the privileges you have of doing this every Sunday.

[00:34:32] Yeah.

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:35] This is a slight diversion, but you're highlighting the benefits of bi-vocationalism.

[00:34:42] Or, bi-vocationality.

[00:34:43] I have no idea.

[00:34:44] Anyway, in that preaching, you're very much aware of the, not everyone is a big Bible nerd,

[00:34:52] you know?

[00:34:53] Yeah.

[00:34:54] How can that be developed?

[00:34:56] Like must you be bi-vocational in order to recognize that?

[00:35:01] You said that there's kind of a missional emphasis that you have.

[00:35:06] How can, let's say the nerdy echelon, then like on cast like these, how can they slash

[00:35:12] we connect with like the ordinary humans better?

[00:35:15] Yeah, that's a brilliant question actually.

[00:35:18] That's a really important question.

[00:35:19] Because humans like that sort of thing.

[00:35:20] How can I relate to humans?

[00:35:21] Yeah, that's right.

[00:35:22] Yeah.

[00:35:23] I mean, but there are.

[00:35:24] They are the academics and the people who are naturally academic.

[00:35:27] I think we need to be around non-Christians.

[00:35:30] I remember those a few weeks when I was full time and at the end of the week, I was really

[00:35:38] shocked that I hadn't spoken to a non-Christian all week again.

[00:35:43] And that was shocking to me.

[00:35:46] And I think, you know, if you have a hobby or whatever it may be, go outside the church

[00:35:54] and meet people who don't know Christ.

[00:35:58] And I think that will sharpen your...

[00:36:01] Because it's applied biblical knowledge.

[00:36:05] It has to be, it has to work on the day-to-day.

[00:36:08] And meeting non-Christians who don't really care stretches us because it's very comfortable

[00:36:14] and I know what this is.

[00:36:15] It's very comfortable to sit inside in the office and have a wonderful thought about

[00:36:19] anti-Rice and the different theologians as a demographic, all these people.

[00:36:26] And...

[00:36:27] But nobody cares.

[00:36:29] Yeah.

[00:36:30] And that's not quite true.

[00:36:33] But nobody cares for the people who are trying to reach it.

[00:36:35] Certainly for me because I'm very, very emotional.

[00:36:37] Yeah.

[00:36:38] When I'm doing the coffee shop I'm thinking, how can I speak of Christ somewhere here

[00:36:42] in this, for their benefit?

[00:36:45] You know, not just to get the evangelical tick to say, yeah, I've evangelized.

[00:36:49] Yeah.

[00:36:50] Yeah, okay.

[00:36:51] Well, thanks, Brian.

[00:36:52] I have a final question about how you're trying to improve but before that here's another

[00:36:57] ambush question.

[00:36:58] I promised you I wasn't going to go to church.

[00:37:00] I didn't mean it.

[00:37:01] Please do.

[00:37:02] Everyone who's preaching whether we're by location or not, everyone who has a group of

[00:37:09] people in front of them likely has a representation within that group of people that are struggling

[00:37:17] with some kind of addiction.

[00:37:20] What are ways that we can communicate, teach, explain God's Word in a way that like maybe

[00:37:24] connects with those that are battling addiction or abuse or fixations?

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:32] That's a really good question.

[00:37:34] Yeah, maybe I should have you back on for part two.

[00:37:36] Yeah, that's nearly one on its own but it is short here and just to give your listeners

[00:37:44] an idea of where I'm coming from.

[00:37:45] I'm a Christian therapist as well and I used to be responsible for about 160 residents

[00:37:51] at any time.

[00:37:52] Not that I was with them all the time but I was supervising there.

[00:37:55] Their journey and counseling some of them.

[00:38:01] Lady Herwin.

[00:38:04] They're all about a relationship.

[00:38:08] Every substance is about a relationship.

[00:38:10] And Jesus said if you love what was the greatest command?

[00:38:13] If you love the Lord your God or all your hearts all mine and strength, love your neighbor

[00:38:16] as yourself.

[00:38:18] Do this and you will live.

[00:38:21] These are all replacements for a relationship.

[00:38:23] They're in as the gospel.

[00:38:24] That's why the gospel thrives in that setting and it does.

[00:38:29] The gospel thrives in the addictive setting because it's producing what the drug is offering

[00:38:38] but can't deliver.

[00:38:40] There's a big one there.

[00:38:42] Maybe we will come back to that.

[00:38:47] When you say the gospel thrives there, what do you mean by that?

[00:38:52] The gospel thrives with broken people and what happened in Genesis was a broken relationship.

[00:39:00] The result of sin was brokenness.

[00:39:03] The gospel is the answer to the brokenness, to the sinfulness.

[00:39:07] That's one of the reasons why I'm probably ammo by vocation.

[00:39:11] It's easier with broken people.

[00:39:15] It isn't the guy that has it together and needs the healer.

[00:39:19] That's sick.

[00:39:20] Someone said that one.

[00:39:21] Someone said that.

[00:39:22] The great psychologist Jesus Christ.

[00:39:25] Okay, actual final question.

[00:39:29] How are you trying to improve?

[00:39:31] So if you'll preach three or four times in 2024 maybe more or maybe less how do you want

[00:39:38] them to get better?

[00:39:39] I need to immerse myself deeper in the text, prayerfully in the text.

[00:39:46] It's easy not to do it prayerfully and I need to immerse myself in that and I know I'm

[00:39:52] repeating myself but I need to understand my audience better.

[00:39:56] I need to as they say God gives us two words and one mouth.

[00:40:00] I need to listen to the heartache because they don't want my knowledge.

[00:40:09] They want to know about Christ.

[00:40:12] They want to know and Christ is the revealed person of God who became man in other words

[00:40:19] he touched ground and my job was to bring Christ to a lost and dying world.

[00:40:27] So it's both studying the text prayerfully and studying my listening.

[00:40:32] I'm repeating, I'm forgiving for that but that's not necessarily.

[00:40:36] I think there's a healing miracle Jesus does in Mark's gospel.

[00:40:41] I preach on this one.

[00:40:42] I think you were in the room.

[00:40:43] I think the first time you were visited Calvary was on this.

[00:40:46] Okay.

[00:40:47] I think.

[00:40:48] Oh, I remember it well.

[00:40:52] He was a man.

[00:40:53] I think he was experiencing deafness and muteness and Jesus heals his hearing first

[00:41:00] and then his mouth.

[00:41:03] I noticed this for myself and then it was you and John Ferris, the Presbyterian pastor

[00:41:12] where you both had Sundays off and you both came to Calvary Court.

[00:41:16] I just had to talk to you guys in front of everybody.

[00:41:20] Jesus wants to do a work for us to hear properly first before we have something to say.

[00:41:25] That's important to preachers and then every Christian but as you said two years one

[00:41:29] mouth, but then even in that healing I'll find the reference in John's but yeah, that

[00:41:35] Jesus heals the ears to listen first before giving something to speak about.

[00:41:40] That actually is profound.

[00:41:41] Yeah, very much so.

[00:41:44] And as preachers that's what we're doing, we're putting in so much more listening before

[00:41:47] we're speaking, aren't we?

[00:41:48] Yes.

[00:41:49] Listen, not only to the two different scholars interacting with each other but listen

[00:41:55] to the people that are just finding it very hard to believe that God is good in a life

[00:42:01] that's full of so much pain.

[00:42:02] That's right.

[00:42:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah, go to the coffee shop, talk to people.

[00:42:06] You do that a lot.

[00:42:07] I do.

[00:42:08] Sometimes I go to the coffee shop to not talk to people.

[00:42:10] Well, there you go.

[00:42:11] Because I was listening to the headphones on.

[00:42:14] It's one thing.

[00:42:15] Yeah.

[00:42:16] All right.

[00:42:17] Thanks so much.

[00:42:18] I'm glad you guys have a huge privilege.

[00:42:19] I really appreciate it.

[00:42:20] And I'm not joking about part two.

[00:42:22] Thank you later on.

[00:42:23] There's no problem any time.

[00:42:24] All right.

[00:42:25] Well, hey, I hope this helps you go.

[00:42:27] Your personal studying in public population in the Gossart.

[00:42:30] All right.

[00:42:31] Well, thanks so much, Brian.

[00:42:32] Really enjoyed that conversation.

[00:42:34] It was a real treat to hear some of what you had to say.

[00:42:39] Thanks for, thanks so much for that.

[00:42:41] Well, for everyone else, I'm glad that you got to listen in as well too.

[00:42:46] Because at the time of this episode's release, I would have just finished up a training event

[00:42:54] that took it taking place in Belgrade, Serbia.

[00:42:58] So myself and Nick Katie, who many of you know and love, along with Kean, Peter and Jesse,

[00:43:06] some leaders from Calvary Quark.

[00:43:09] We were out in Serbia and we were equipping and encouraging and training Bible teachers

[00:43:15] from Serbia, Hungary and Romania.

[00:43:19] And it's just exciting.

[00:43:20] You should know that we're so much more than just a podcast.

[00:43:24] We do want to travel and to help and to encourage and to take this kind of expository,

[00:43:31] Christ-centered preaching and really help people to excel in it and then raise up the next

[00:43:35] generation of Christ-centered biblical expositors.

[00:43:40] So if you want to connect with us, there certainly is our public Instagram, Twitter, Facebook

[00:43:45] page.

[00:43:46] We have a private group with like 600 plus Bible teachers in there.

[00:43:51] We could talk about episodes or also ask questions about how do we prepare?

[00:43:55] How do we teach God's word?

[00:43:58] And we have a, I'd say a monthly newsletter.

[00:44:02] And if you want to sign up for that, you can visit our recently upgraded website, expositorscollective.com.

[00:44:08] At the bottom of the page, there's a link to join the collective.

[00:44:13] And there's links for other great online resources to help you grow in your Bible teaching.

[00:44:18] And also the kind of updates and glimpses into what expositors collective is doing.

[00:44:25] And thank you so much for being a part of it.

[00:44:27] Thanks for subscribing.

[00:44:28] Thanks for spreading the news.

[00:44:31] We're here to help the next generation of Bible teachers show Christ through every page

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[00:44:47] And Jesus himself is mighty to save and willing to help.

[00:44:52] So thanks for partnering with us.

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[00:44:56] And I'll see you next Tuesday with a great conversation with Angie Thornton.

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