How Do I Confront a Leader? (Who Has Authority Over Me)

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[00:00:11] It's important for us to make a path for people to be able to sit down with us and talk with us To make a time where we are accessible but then I also think that as the person who is wanting to

[00:00:30] Access the Leader that we also go through the proper chain and talk to your Bible study leader Who can then maybe talk to the Bible study teacher who can then maybe so I just

[00:00:44] Think it's important on both ends to make a path and to know that path and respect it as well So today our topic is Is how do I confront a leader who has authority over me? I think that's us I think we're the leaders

[00:01:06] Today I'm joined by when she leads member team member Christa Foxy and my guest Christy Daff Christy Hi friends Christy Daff is a good friend of mine and ministry partner and she is a fellow pastor's wife

[00:01:22] Her husband Jason serves as the senior pastor at the garden fellowship in india, California How long have you guys been there? We've been there almost nine years. Oh my goodness and in ministry for I mean like sent you return

[00:01:35] I feel yeah I'm dead was the pastor my mom was a ministry and then I married a pastor so kind of a life life life long journey And now your kids are growing up and doing the same thing

[00:01:49] But I wanted to point out that you also started a podcast of your own and I believe it's called growing in the sun So you guys should check that out You take people through the one your Bible, right?

[00:02:01] I do and you know I do the one your Bible but it's also We do it kind of topically as well through the word of God so whether you're doing the one your Bible on your own or not

[00:02:12] I think it's a beneficial biblical time together. So yeah awesome Well, we are tackling the huge subject today and what we have found through our discussions is it's not a one size fits all subject

[00:02:27] You know it's like here's what you do ABC indeed doesn't work like that so every situation is different and unique And requires thoughtfulness and prayer and most importantly the Lord's direction. So what are best practices?

[00:02:41] What about spiritual abuse should we just be patient and wait things out? Do we confront? Do we leave on vacation? Do we go up?

[00:02:50] The chain of command or just simply slip out the back door of the church how do we confront a leader who has a thwarty over us? So let's talk about it. So that list is so

[00:03:01] Intense and so long. I feel like we could take each one of those and just go through it But I think the why are we even talking about this is so important because as Leaders in the church and ministries

[00:03:14] We're gonna have to deal with it, right? Like there's not gonna be a time where everything is just perfect as much as we wish it is and Was so we have to know

[00:03:23] We have to know how to go about it. We're to go about doing it and I think You know it just really depends on the church where at in the ministry where at what kind of Board they have what kind of setup and leadership they have

[00:03:37] About how we go about doing these things and so It doesn't like like you said if there was a formula that would be fantastic like A

[00:03:48] Plus be go here, but you know go there and and then it's done right? So kind of what you're talking about is culture within the church like what what's the church Culture what's the leadership culture what's the

[00:03:59] Practices at that particular church? Yeah, could be important too. I think that Yeah, knowing the best practices and following you know the order of that is is wise You know when you instead of jumping ahead to the senior pastor of their board

[00:04:15] Knowing kind of the proper order of where to go If you're a leader in ministry and maybe there's somebody in between You know the leader the head pastor here's why for the board and to just kind of know that so no

[00:04:29] Yeah, knowing the culture of that is really helpful What do you think Chrissy? Well, I think you know like you girls are saying it's so applicable to all of us because we do we want a formula We want you know to know exactly what to do and yet

[00:04:48] I think that the Bible gives us so many verses about this about how to be the Confrontor and how to be the one who is being confronted and it's things that we have to press into

[00:05:01] Before we even get to this place of the conversation, you know, right? I think that we want to just jump into the Conversation and maybe that's our tendency to avoid the chain of command because we want to go straight to that person

[00:05:17] Think instead of checking our hearts. You know as the person who is Doing the confronting doing the review game and I think that Before we have any conversation

[00:05:30] We have to make sure that our heart is right that we haven't yet a root of bitterness grow that we're responsible To keep our hearts clean and right, you know, I was really in the morning and Psalm 15

[00:05:42] And it's talking to the blameless life who does no wrong and it says speaks truth from his heart Who has no malice on his tongue? And so I think there's something to be said for like you said finding out what that

[00:05:56] Property and of command is who you need to talk to why it is that you need to talk in the making sure that Our hearts are clean and right and free of emotion and just speaking truth

[00:06:09] When we have that conversation, right? I love that. It's it goes to the motive, you know What is the motive of that conversation like you said we need to be as free of emotion as we can You know and Tenderhearted and

[00:06:26] Heavenly focus but the motive. What is the motive? You know of having that difficult conversation is If it ones honest with themselves, is it because you know they just don't like something or is there a really Issue and is the motive

[00:06:41] You know to advance the kingdom I guess is a is a good frame of reference to put it in like if you need to go and confront your leader What is why what's the purpose? What's the motive of that? What are you?

[00:06:53] Was it where do you trying to to accomplish? Yeah, are you if you're trying to get yourself out there and your your name or Some way maybe that motive's not so great but if there's something that needs to be addressed and

[00:07:06] You perfectly have gone through it. Yeah, so I think that actually is a good first step right like why Why do what what's my goal in in having this conversation is it because there's many

[00:07:18] reasons why we could have to go to a leader it could be an issue of sin It could be a complaint about ministry it could be a complaint about their leadership practices It could be something we were offended by and and there's

[00:07:34] There's all kinds of different answers to that right some could be I loved this thing that I that I read this morning It was just like the five seas of

[00:07:42] Conflict management you can you Google it. It'll it'll pop up but it but I just thought this was interesting because it said What's your approach like? Sometimes it's it's a circumvent and

[00:07:55] This gives an approach and when to use it so circumvent when you have to pick your battles the issues not important So there might be times when you just Circumvent can see when the issue is more important to the other person

[00:08:11] And there's a need to maintain harmony so it's like this is really important to another person Not so much to me. Maybe I will concede those Then it goes down to compete these are quick decisive actions that are necessary like an unpopular decision

[00:08:25] That needs to be made so that might be when you go into battle like no This one's worth fighting for and then it goes into compromise When you need a solution that is the least minimally

[00:08:36] Acceptable to all and you need a quick temporary solution to an important issue So there might be times when compromise is called for and then collaboration This is the win-win scenario when all the parties are collaborating and you have a common goal and so

[00:08:53] I just thought well that's interesting because I don't always have to just attack it Had on sometimes I can circumvent sometimes I can can seed other times Do other things and it reminds me of like kind of the next step in all this would be

[00:09:07] Just confrontation you know and confrontation isn't a bad thing Yes, that list you you know you just read Brenda those are really good things but You have to be able to to think in front in some way and how are you gonna do that?

[00:09:22] You know how are you gonna go in? Is it missively We talked about this a little bit the yesterday when we had our pre Meeting and confrontation styles are so different you know and I think we agree that the first first step is motive

[00:09:38] You know if your motive is right your heart is right and then you have to go and confront how do you do that? And I think we all have good examples of when we've done that and probably bad examples

[00:09:48] I can share some bad examples. Yeah, I've had I've done it poorly with a real issue You know and a real issue that Um Really needed to be addressed but because I know I didn't handle a confronted in the in the right way

[00:10:06] Um, it wasn't addressed in the proper way and it really hurt things for a long time with me in a later and I learned a lot a lot from that And then there's other confrontation styles you know Christie we were talking yesterday and just not wanting to

[00:10:23] Not wanting to do it or be You know and being in a little bit more Passive in it right and I think that that's where you know when we are the

[00:10:34] Confrontor in the situation that's where I think so much prayer comes in so that we can you know ascertain like you said what the goal is You know, and I think that there's an investigative measure that needs to take place as well

[00:10:50] Instead of walking in just an accusatory manner and accusatory tone Finding out maybe there's more information that we don't know that would give us sympathy that would give us a little bit of empathy Toor the leader that we had it realized before and you know, I think that

[00:11:09] We've all had people who have confronted us poorly like you said and I think that we've all been the one to a Confronted poorly and might and then see definitely is to avoid avoid avoid and then get frustrated and do it in a wrong manner instead of just

[00:11:26] Praying for clarity and praying for you know the right words the right method and I think that you know the situations where It feels so wrong it almost feels like either you or that person is just kind of verbally throwing up all over the place and then

[00:11:43] You know like when we have a tummy ache and we get sick then Suddenly we're feeling a little bit better and you know the Bible says that the wrath of man never produces the righteousness of God

[00:11:54] And the wrath will never accomplish what we're trying to accomplish and it just leaves us with More baggage and more emotional pools to have to try to wait through as opposed to just getting to the heart of this situation and

[00:12:10] God's heart in the situation and being able to move on and restore it a friendship which should always be the goal Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of Romans 12 18 as if possible so far as it depends on you Live peacefully with all right

[00:12:27] Yeah, that's so good and you kind of obviously when you think about conflict you go to Matthew 18 You know and how do we handle that and and I think another important things just looking at the word of God is you know

[00:12:40] Matthew 18 like making sure you're going to that person one on one You know first that you have a conversation just between you and them not like after we've called 15 people or oh

[00:12:52] I'm just getting advice, you know, I mean, yes, there is a place for godly advice in this godly advice You know not just blowing off steam about another person, but being able to truly go to that person and say hey

[00:13:06] I've got an issue that I need to talk to you about I kind of have a rule and when I don't follow this rule I always get in trouble It's just like waiting 24 hours like especially if I'm hot over something or yeah

[00:13:18] I'm newly offended it's just like okay wait Don't act like just pray through this take them take a minute But you know when we've all had situations where we've had to confront leaders and it is tricky because that person's in authority over you

[00:13:38] You don't know if you should go you don't know what are the consequences of this going to be if I go

[00:13:46] How do I approach them when do I approach them timing sometimes is everything and so to just be I'm thinking about times when I've had to go to like

[00:13:55] Leaders in my past when it's worked and when it hasn't and when it's worked is usually when I'm on god's time frame When I'm on god's agenda When when there's things that maybe need to bring brought out when I go in humility

[00:14:09] When I go with the heart of Restoration with the goal of like hey we want to make them industry better So this is this is the goal that we have and then I can sit down and then you can let whatever it is that you have to say

[00:14:25] And then be praying that like hey this person would be receptive That they would hear it in the heart in which it's intended and that there would be a great thing

[00:14:34] And we've all had conversations where I've confronted people and it's been like oh, I'm so glad you pointed that out I didn't see that or that was my blind spot or Or I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend but then we have also those conversations that go bad

[00:14:52] So what would you guys say to the the person listening that's like yeah, I've had that conversation or those conversations and Now there's just dealing with kind of this difficult situation or a difficult leader

[00:15:08] Okay, I've done Matthew 18. I've gone one on one. I've taken the witness, you know Now what yeah, I think that's when it's important to Pray about where God has you to be and what he has you to do. You know there's some situations that we see

[00:15:26] But luckily, and there's some situations that we've seen practically where God is using that to move you along to where you can Serve in a leadership that you can respect that you agree with but I think that there's also times where God uses those situations and

[00:15:45] Is wanting to keep you in there as a wholesome godly loving example of Someone who can continue to, you know, say the path when When maybe it's a little bit Difficult and a little tricky, you know we've all had those situations where God has had us

[00:16:04] Stay even though we don't agree wholeheartedly with the direction that things are going in the hopes that we can Influence in a godly way, but you know, I think

[00:16:14] I don't know if I'm taking this off topic, but I think it's also important to talk about us as leaders in that situation because We have to get ready for review can confrontation obviously we would like to think that it will never come our way That come and

[00:16:34] Right the leader in that situation Really determines how that conversation is going to go because like you said we're walking in this a Confrontor it could go really well It could go really bad, but that's kind of dependent on the leader's heart yeah, and I think

[00:16:53] The book of Proverbs makes it so clear how all of us leaders are not Are supposed to accept a review and I think sometimes You know

[00:17:05] As leaders it can be difficult to accept a review depending on how it comes and that's why it's so important as the person who's Confronting to do it with the right heart, but even when it's not done with the right heart

[00:17:18] Remember like when you know shimny is throwing stones and rocks and kicking up dust David And the guy next to him is like can I go kill him for you and Dave like no because maybe God told him to say this and I think that

[00:17:32] We as leaders it's important for us to be ready to have our hearts ready You know that yes, we're working so hard and we're doing so much and sometimes that You know difficulty can come out of how could they say this because I'm doing so much

[00:17:48] And I'm working so hard can't they see I'm trying as opposed to really just wanting to be humble and like you said to To have the heart of oh wow, I'm really glad that you pointed this out and really glad that you said this and

[00:18:02] Knowing that as leaders There's even more on us to make sure that this conversation and as well and that requires our humility on both ends Yeah, yeah, I think I think to Just having that posture and like you say being ready for those conversations like pre-gaming almost

[00:18:23] I think that's such a good thing because then For anybody that comes to me that's gonna say something that is hard to say that Maybe I don't even want to hear for the most part. I can usually disagree with them and just go yeah Yeah, that's me

[00:18:42] Do you know what I say like like no matter what anybody says we can always be like Sort of an agreement with or maybe like no will your facts are wrong or no You miss judge my motives you can bring clarity to those things

[00:18:57] But I think that we should always be ready to say okay, Lord what What truth is in this of me? Sometimes it's not personal it couldn't just be like a ministry thing but when it's personal

[00:19:10] I agree with you. We should be open to saying search my heart Lord no my ways See if there's any wicked way in me and yes, there is by the way Okay, there is and that's I think some of times the problem is that

[00:19:23] What they're touching on is a place of insecurity that we already have Lash out in our insecurity but there's something that's so beautiful when we just you know as leaders Prepare our hearts to say the words. Thank you so much

[00:19:37] I will pray that in you know and that can be healing and it doesn't necessarily mean that we Have to agree with them and I know I've had you know confrontations where I haven't agreed with them in the moment

[00:19:48] But then gone and prayed it in and God's like oh yeah baby that's you You know we're going so just being willing to leave that meeting in peace and humility And then let God do the work in us. Yeah, being flexible, but I think too like you guys

[00:20:03] It's said just being willing and able to listen and We talked about a little bit yesterday being available and accessible because you know who we're really talking to as leaders in our church Talking to leaders above them or vice versa And so

[00:20:20] To pre-game it as you said Brenda it kind of starts with that relationship You know what kind of relationship do the leaders in the church after they feel like they can go To their leader if there's a problem and vice versa and have they cultivated that relationship

[00:20:36] Where with hard things have to be said it's not like oh why she calling me and never hear from her You know and all of a sudden you're on guard. It's oh, you know

[00:20:46] We have a relationship and she could be calling just to say hi or she could be cutting you know You don't know but you know, I think we've all had those different kinds of relationships too

[00:20:56] But if we work at them as leaders with the leaders in our church these conversations will be they may be a little bit easier Not going to be easy but easier to have because

[00:21:06] Then the person you're confronting or being confronted by you guys have a regard and a love and a care for each other You know in some in some ways And so like a set of getting that random phone call

[00:21:19] That shouldn't happen just a random phone call for a leader and all of a sudden you're like oh my gosh. Why she calling me? Because then that means there's this no relationship there and then all of these things are going to be harder

[00:21:31] You know all of this is going to be harder when you have to confront and we have to because That trust doesn't built up you don't know if they're doing it, you know

[00:21:40] You know none of us know the motives of the heart but without that trust it really is hard to To accept it, you know if you're being confronted and then also for the other person to hear it

[00:21:53] That when you have kind of a that relationship built in friendship and love and It is a little bit easier to confront then and you have access to them You know however that looks like in these different churches Being able to go to your leader is of course

[00:22:11] key how do you how do you talk about Difficulty if you don't if you're not able if you don't ever see them if you don't ever talk to them You know they have to be accessible and of course

[00:22:21] What's different than the people in the church that we're serving? We're talking about the leaders right the leaders and the church that they can have access to us and they feel like There's an open door there

[00:22:33] I want to I want to get to boundaries and I want to get to Like chain of command because I think those are two important things to talk about but I just want to talk about Just from a vulnerable place of like

[00:22:44] When someone calls and says you know, I want to have coffee like immediately Like there's the panic of like okay what What is this gonna be and and let's just acknowledge that as leaders like you know

[00:22:59] Sometimes especially and if you have a larger church like there's a lot of those conversations and I just I guess I would say to the person who wants to confront or complain or come to a leader with an issue or wants the leader to be accessible

[00:23:16] I would just say please remember that they're human They make mistakes They're they're not perfect people. They're trying they're trying. Yeah, you know I think that's kind of an important thing to point out but let's talk about like that accessibility

[00:23:32] Because you guys had some great great tips on like your accessibility and how you practically make that happen so You share about because you were saying to be accessible and then you Christy were telling us yesterday about your accessibility yeah

[00:23:49] I kind of make myself accessible to whoever needs it and I kind of feel like That is our role as you know leaders and and it's different, you know in different churches and different Personality types too. Whether it's a big church a small church whether you know

[00:24:07] What you can manage and what you can't manage but I also because I do feel like it's important to be accessible to people when they need it because we have such a

[00:24:17] We're so privileged to be able to walk alongside people and so many different areas of their life I have also had to learn boundaries because that can because if you are accessible Then you also need to know how to

[00:24:31] Protect your time and protect your mind and your family and things and I wasn't very good at that in the beginning I'm better now my husband's not as good as it. I try to help him I think he's very very accessible and he loves it and

[00:24:50] And it's great and but I Yeah, I just whoever is needing I get calls for coffee all the time But I'm in a little bit of different role now and so the calls for coffee are not so much this and you know a

[00:25:04] confrontation it's more of deeper issues and so I kind of already know what what I'm going to coffee for But when we were leading our church in Brazil You know, there was different confrontation style there they don't confront and so as leaders we would have to

[00:25:22] And what we learned is to do it in the way that would not hurt them And so learn their culture in that kind of like different we wouldn't all these culture different cultures of different churches here in the states

[00:25:36] But also what we learned is to be flexible to and In what we were needing to confront and and it all came through being accessible to them in them to us as well

[00:25:52] I don't have that makes sense, but we did learn how to be really really flexible in some situations that That were hard and we just decided to give people grace and

[00:26:03] We didn't see what God was doing with them instead of confront and issue where they are being difficult and And then we saw the Lord do amazing things, you know that was just one situation though

[00:26:14] But because we had a we decided to concentrate on that relationship first and to grow in that relationship And that meant they had access to us in Lots of

[00:26:27] regards. I think there's levels of accessibility too. I think like you're like, you know Jesus had his inner three and then the 12 and then You know out from there and I think that they're you know to my closest leaders I run the women's ministry

[00:26:40] I have a board of nine people. They have absolute Access to me and then you know for people in their ministries Talking about chain of command like you know

[00:26:51] I think you should go to your direct over see your first and then go up the chain if you don't get the answers there Then go to their manager and if you don't get the answers there go to their pastor

[00:27:02] In the way with that archer just set up every single ministry like you go up the chain of command and all ends in a pastor somewhere A pastor oversees every part of our ministry, but you you talked to Christy a little bit about

[00:27:16] Does your accessibility and like hey I'm accessible when Right because I think like you said you know there there's something To be said about the chain of command because you know a lot of people want to just

[00:27:31] Go straight to the person that they see on stage and tell them what they think You know and then obviously as a leader you want to know everyone and you want to be friends with everybody And you love everybody, but

[00:27:46] There comes a point where that's almost impossible you know and I know my husband Always tells the church that he wants to meet with every single one of them, but if he

[00:27:58] Only spent his time meeting with the people who wanted to talk to him. He would do nothing else He could spend you know in hour every Single you know 24 hours a day and he's still when it get through everybody and so there's a

[00:28:15] There's a difficulty like you were saying Christy where it depends on Your season of life it depends on how small or big your churches, you know I I homeschooled my kids my last one is the senior right now and so

[00:28:29] You know now it's a little bit different where I have more time to meet people but There was you know a difficult situation that somebody wanted to talk to me through and

[00:28:42] I wanted to be accessible and it kind of got to the point where so many people wanted to meet me So many people wanted to talk to me so many people wanted to sit down with me and tell me what they thought or tell me what they liked

[00:28:53] Or tell me what they didn't like and I struggled because I felt like I was dropping the ball in homeschooling my kids. I felt like I was

[00:29:03] Dropping the ball and you know I wouldn't be ready for Bible City to teach all the women because I had spent three hours with one woman Disgusting what she had a problem with and so what the balance that I felt like I put on my heart

[00:29:17] Was just everyone's day. I would Satiside time from two o'clock until six o'clock to have meetings with women who wanted to talk to me And so that way it wasn't like you know

[00:29:30] Ten o'clock on a small day and they wanted to chat on the phone for an hour and a half about You know this or that but it was time that was set aside to where I knew my kids were you know doing

[00:29:42] What they were supposed to be doing and now I could have these conversations and so I think that Accessibility is really important But I also think that as leaders we have to set those boundaries in place to what it is that we're called to do

[00:30:00] You know we never want to be those leaders who are completely isolated and surrounded by Yes, men because that always only is Right but At the same time I think we see this example with the disciples in the book of Acts where you know the widows

[00:30:17] Wanted a piece of them basically they wanted to have their tables weighted on and and yet we see Peter saying

[00:30:23] Okay, it's not pertinent though that I leave my main ministry use of the word of God and prayer in order to do this and so I think that that's where as leaders It's important for us to

[00:30:37] Make a path for people to be able to sit down with us and talk with us to make a time where we are Accessible but then I also think that as the person who is wanting to

[00:30:51] Access the leader that we also you know go through the proper change Man like talk your Bible study leader who could then maybe talk to the Bible study teacher who can then you know

[00:31:02] Maybe so I just think it's important on both ends to make a path and to know that path and Respected as well. I love that you make that time and they can They can schedule low point man

[00:31:17] They know when they can talk to you and things like you know just anybody and it's not just for leaders, right? It's for anybody in the church. Yeah, and I don't know if it's because we're doing

[00:31:28] You know, we're talking about leaders going to leaders. So it's a little bit smaller scale to right for the accessibility And so there's a difference between being accessible to everybody in your church all the time Which is

[00:31:43] Impossible you know, but being accessible to the leaders in your church is kind of what I was Yeah, are you accept are we accessible to the the people we're leading?

[00:31:54] Do they have that relationship with us that they feel like they can go and talk to us and and Do they have access to us not access to the you know from the whole the whole body

[00:32:07] But I love that you have that that one a day or once of when it is once a week But in your right though, too, Chris he does depends on seasons because my season of life

[00:32:18] It's very very different than it was a few years ago. We're empty nesters, you know my oldest is 22 My youngest is 19 in college and When I was home schooling when we were in the mission field like I didn't have time to

[00:32:33] To be doing this and then our church in Brazil we started with smaller our Volk you know our leader group you know we had five or six leaders it was easier Um, but you know they would do still new we could come to a bit of dischange

[00:32:48] It just changed so accessibility I think in this regard We're talking about our successful to the leaders that we lead. Yeah For sure and What you said because I think that there's so much to be said about Having that time with your leaders developing those relationships

[00:33:07] You know where you're hanging out you're getting coffee your I think lunch because that's much more manageable, right then Attack the in the whole church and that can have the trickle down effect too. You know you have your

[00:33:20] Women's leader ministry leader or their Bible say leader and they hopefully are pouring into those women and being accessible to them And then those women if they're doing discipleship are accessible You know, and I think if your leaders know you like my

[00:33:35] Nine that are on my women's team. I've been working with some of them for 17 years like they know me So you have this idea of like change in your pocket like I might do something that hurts one of them

[00:33:47] Or that it's annoying or I offend them, but they know me. Yes, so that that takes away a lot of the The issues of having to deal with some of those confrontations Because you don't have to deal with them because they already know you

[00:34:02] But what you're talking about yeah, they know it's not You're not bent on something crazy and Right, they know your heart for ministry. They know your heart for leadership But I like what Ted says sometimes, you know like it's not that we're too busy

[00:34:19] We're just limited everybody has 24 hours a day there was I was in a situation where someone wanted access to me And they wanted it immediately and we'll do kind of what you do Christie, but we'll do it with Sunday mornings like hey, we're accessible before the service

[00:34:36] We're accessible after the service like any time You can approach us during those times too so that you have that openness, but But there are times when Gosh if I if I told this person or shared my schedule for this month They would be overwhelmed for me

[00:34:56] So you But at the same time you're like, but I don't want to put that burden on somebody that like look at my schedule You know it's just I'm limited. I I hear you

[00:35:11] I want to be there, but I'm limited and sometimes people do get frustrated when it's November and you say I have something in January open You know and and you're making yourself accessible, but it is a long time and they can feel like you're pushing them off

[00:35:25] But it's literally like that's the schedule like it's it's booked out like so far in advance That sometimes it is difficult, but let's get into some steps I have I have a few like practical things that like if you're gonna go to someone

[00:35:40] I just read these and thought they were helpful Stay in the spirit. Yeah, you know never go to someone in the flash like make sure you're prayed up make sure you're in the spirit Get a good handle on the issue

[00:35:53] What am I going for so that we're not like just pulling out of the air? These different things like goat for a specific issue and get a handle on that keep it personal

[00:36:03] What do I mean by that like this is what happened to me when you did this eye this or This is the situation. I'm in and this is how it's affecting me That's the Matthew kind of 18 principles so important

[00:36:18] Get godly advice make sure that when you're getting advice it's from a mature believer Be humble give the benefit of the doubt You know how might this situation? What how can I defend that person? You know was there reason why this leader did ABC D sometimes

[00:36:38] It's just that people don't know the information like we'll make a decision Maybe even a tough decision and it's like oh, but you did this this and this and it's like But you don't know the information that that I have so give the benefit of the doubt

[00:36:51] Speak the truth in love Ephesians 415 what does that verse say that we might grow up into his image that You know we're growing in his image so we need to speak the truth

[00:37:01] But it needs to be loving and then utilize the chain of command and then we talked about you know leaders being humble and Accessible and being understanding, but then having good boundaries

[00:37:15] You know or people allowed to call us at 11 at night. You know no there might be some correction there needed So boundaries I love them Because I just now know how important they are and Yeah, and it's hard

[00:37:34] I think that you're such a preventative measure again where we As leaders we set those boundaries It really paved the way toward a good friendship, you know So that we're not found frustrated at that person and then treating them poorly

[00:37:50] You know it gives us I think room to love and to grow together Right, yeah and setting them initially because if you try and set them later

[00:38:01] It always kind of affects the relationship right then you just come off mean, you know, you're calling me a little too much Or you know, but if you in the beginning are kind of you know different people you have different boundaries different people

[00:38:14] But if they know hey should it's not really gonna call me back after 9 or 10 and you know, you know I'm not gonna keep doing that hopefully What do you guys think though thinking through like okay?

[00:38:27] We've kind of went through all the confrontation and how and when and where and why and all of that But what about like those really difficult situations a leaders in sin or I know a situation where my husband had like it had been

[00:38:45] Confrontation after confrontation and so it's like illegal things things that were unethical like really hard like sometimes, you know It's like you're confronting the leader and it's like a really hard thing and We got to the point where we had to leave the ministry. It was like okay

[00:39:04] If my husband came home and he finally just said to me if we stay I'm in sin and so I have to leave So what what's your advice to some people that are dealing with or like really unhealthy cultures? You know spiritual abuse in some cases

[00:39:22] Because we can't just say oh your leaders they watch over your souls which is scriptural right? They're they're there to watch over your souls, but not every Yeah, leader is doing a good job at that. So I'm why I've been in those situations too

[00:39:37] And I think a lot of us unfortunately have and I think it depends on each person I think like what You know Ted did in that situation as you know

[00:39:48] It's it was sinful you guys had to go you can't be in sin with that that's that's a clear indicator of Probably time to go but then there's other situations that aren't quite as Intense or clear and but really hard and

[00:40:04] You know I've been in those and that's something you have to pray through because it's different for everybody We had one and I Prayed about it and we stayed for many years and it was hard it was really hard

[00:40:17] But I learned so much to I'm so glad I stayed even when there was difficulties in leadership I'm so so glad I stayed in hindsight because I the lessons learned in that time

[00:40:29] We're invaluable and so what I've taken from that to you know the church we started and the ministries We've started and all of these things have been Huge I wouldn't trade it for anything but at the time

[00:40:43] It was so hurtful and there was nobody to go to a bed that just kind of there was you know I was at the last step But we the board had known there was nothing being done and so I was confronted well

[00:40:57] Do you do you go do you stay and I felt the Lord's like this bloom where your planet and Even though it was really hard. It just felt like it's not It was hard to it was hard to grow I

[00:41:14] State but some people that's not the right thing. I would yeah, that's just a prayer in an individual call I think for everybody we've been in churches where we've had hard situations some people left some people stayed and all of that was right

[00:41:29] You know and I mean like sometimes you stay sometimes you go I remember a situation where the pastor specifically asked me to do something I didn't feel like it was of the Lord for for me

[00:41:40] Yet the Lord said I want you to submit to it and that was one of those like There's those turning point moments in your leadership where you're just like oh, this is the lesson This this is for me like can I submit?

[00:41:56] It wasn't ungodly wasn't sinful what he was asking me to do I just didn't think it was from the Lord and and I've still convinced of this day that it wasn't but I do know

[00:42:06] That the Lord asked me to submit and that's a leadership lesson all in itself right I think I know we were talking earlier about that book the tale of three kids

[00:42:17] It's all David and Absalom and I think that we see such a good example of that just in the lives of David and Saul Where you know, you have time periods where David is continuing on in the kingdom and he's continuing to leave the army

[00:42:31] And then you have a time You know where he left him Saul was obviously hunting him But I think Chris O'Wet you said is so important in that because whether David was Right there serving under Saul or whether he had left him as in the wilderness

[00:42:49] At both places he was still very respectful of the position of Saul and I think that whether God calls us to leave or God calls us to stay I think that it just takes it back to

[00:43:03] Our own personal hearts in the way that we're handling it, you know because we've seen people I think all of us have seen people who have Disagreeed and left and made a mess on their way out and there's just carnage

[00:43:15] That's a trailing behind them and then I think that we've seen you know people stay and wish that they would leave as well You know, and so I think that it's just so important to Guard our own hearts because you know, unfortunately we can't make anybody

[00:43:31] Follow God and obey God, but we can make sure that in the messiest of situations that we are Letting our hearts be open before God and letting our you know living God help as handle the situations as Respectfully as possible

[00:43:49] That God can step in and handle it. You know, I was thinking about when my kids were little and One of them would be yelling at the other one and I could just step in and deal with the one kid

[00:44:01] You know if if the other kid was staying quiet and being good But then when they both started screaming at each other

[00:44:07] He had to deal with both of them you know and I think that that we have to make sure that we are handling the situations in a way where

[00:44:16] God can step in and deal with their hearts without him having to correct both of us. Yes, I'm gonna be honest There's times when I feel like running into a cave As we're wrapping you there's a time for that just it rest does it go into the cave

[00:44:34] But that's been when boundaries become important too So you don't feel like you're not allowed in my cave. Yeah, yeah, just it's out here There's gates at the at the cave door any house we're wrapping up what are some resources that people they think

[00:44:49] Okay, this is a great you know introduction, but I really would like to delve in a little bit more What are some resources we could give? Christy you had you had a bunch that were good. I had a big list my daughter

[00:45:01] I think fully works out a Christian bookstore and so I Intexed her what are some books about conflict and she was like oh, I've got a lot This unfortunately is a big enough subject and topic to where people have written about it

[00:45:16] But you know just a few the first one is the you know the tale of three kings that we talked about already It's such a great book because I know we were talking about before this show that there was a situation

[00:45:28] Where I was to sure that they were the soul and I was the David and then through that God was like you're awesome But no greater love by Rebecca McLaughlin is a great book and Brenda you said that she's

[00:45:47] Be your speaker at your next conference. So I'm definitely signing up for that one and then also I'm common ground by Timothy Keller You know, I love the way that he books at situations and and there will be there will be uncommon

[00:46:02] Round that you know we are working with people through and and then also don't give the enemy a seat at your table by Louis Gicklyo and you know just making sure that in our conversations like we've been talking about this entire time

[00:46:18] That we keep the matter the matter and then we move on and we're not giving the enemy a But hold either as the one who's rebuilt he or as the one who's receiving that a be rebuked that

[00:46:30] The enemy doesn't have a place in you know just messing with the unity of the body of Christ Dr. Man yeah I definitely agree with the tale of three kings that's a great one

[00:46:44] But I also I like listening to podcasts. I read so much for different things I'm doing and so I have been going to podcast And so Timothy Keller you can listen to his sermons and I listen to maybe one or two a week in different things

[00:46:58] But he has a series going through the Proverbs and it's a huge huge buzz He's an incredible teacher, you know and just learning about wisdom and What it means how to do it what the Proverbs say about all these things is a really great Tool when you're handling

[00:47:17] Difficulties and so I would recommend that you can just find it on Spotify and look for a series of Proverbs and then The boundary book I really like recommending and I took it through with my leaders in Brazil

[00:47:30] We went through it. It's just boundaries. It's by a doctor cloud and Dr. Townsend They have a lot of different ones, but the very initial one just boundaries is really great

[00:47:41] So when you do open yourself up to be accessible, you know how to do it in a healthy way and not to feel over Overrun or manipulated or Take out things that aren't yours. You know I read that years ago and that was really

[00:47:55] Really helpful and a lot of different areas yeah Talks about my life yeah different things. I mean like all things take things leave things But um, I found it to be a great tool Yeah, yeah, those are those are great great help

[00:48:09] And any leadership book. I mean we have you know resources just Lots of leadership stuff and and I love that but I apologize for my smokers voice She doesn't smoke She doesn't smoke. I'm not a smoker, but it just sounds like it

[00:48:27] Well thanks for joining us today. We hope you find this Content helpful stay connected with us on Instagram and Facebook for further discussions and Informations about what's going on at when she leads we are in full swing of our cohorts

[00:48:41] Our leadership cohorts if you are someone who thinks that you might benefit from being an A leadership cohort you can go to when she leads.org and get more information and sign up to join one All right until next time