A Conversation with Rebecca McLaughlin

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[00:00:11] Hi and welcome to When She Leads, a podcast for women who serve in ministry.

[00:00:18] Recently I have the privilege of sitting down with Rebecca Maglachlan to talk about life,

[00:00:23] ministry and other difficult topics.

[00:00:25] Rebecca holds a PhD in Renaissance literature from Cambridge University and a theology

[00:00:31] degree from Oak Hill College in London.

[00:00:34] She's the author of numerous books including Confronting Christianity, 10 questions every team

[00:00:40] should ask.

[00:00:41] Jesus through the eyes of women and newly released does the Bible affirm same-sex relationships.

[00:00:46] I'm excited because Rebecca will be joining us this year for our West Coast when she leads

[00:00:51] conference October 18th and 19th at Murrietta Hot Springs Resort, hearing California.

[00:00:58] I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I do.

[00:01:02] In Christ we are washed sanctified and justified.

[00:01:04] You are sitting at completely taking away a wee stand before him righteous because of

[00:01:09] because of what Jesus has done for us not because of our own merits.

[00:01:13] Now then the Christian life for all of us is going to be an ongoing process that pull

[00:01:18] himself sort of recognises in his own life of the sort of conflict between our flesh and the

[00:01:26] spirit.

[00:01:27] And that's going to play itself out in different ways for all of us.

[00:01:30] Hi Rebecca and welcome to our Wenshe leads podcast, glad to be here.

[00:01:36] I know it's so great to have you. I'm really looking forward to just chatting with you

[00:01:40] today about life and ministry getting to know you a bit because you're going to be joining us

[00:01:46] for our Wenshe leads conference in October.

[00:01:49] Hi I'm looking forward to it.

[00:01:51] Yeah I'm so glad that you're here.

[00:01:54] So I love opening up and just talking about like what people's journey is.

[00:01:59] So what what was your journey to this point?

[00:02:02] Like I know you live in Massachusetts now but obviously you're born and raised in England.

[00:02:08] So like tell us about your journey and how you initially met Jesus.

[00:02:16] Sure yeah I was raised mostly in London I actually grew up initially and more from rural part of

[00:02:22] the United Kingdom but Mutant London when I was about nine and I was part of a church going family

[00:02:29] but sort of my family's bit of a mix my mum's from a Catholic family from the North of England

[00:02:34] and my dad's from a church of England family from the South of England so they compromised

[00:02:39] on a church in London that was a very sort of high church sort of in between Anglican and Catholic

[00:02:45] and that was where we went when I was growing up.

[00:02:49] For a number of reasons honestly it's not a church that I would probably recommend to somebody

[00:02:52] today who was looking for a church in London but it was the place where I grew in my

[00:03:00] knowledge of the Lord of his word I don't remember time when I wouldn't have identified as a

[00:03:08] question and when I didn't see myself as following Jesus but I remember distinctly from around

[00:03:17] the age of nine being very sure about Jesus and also being quite sure that following Jesus

[00:03:23] wasn't something that I could just do by myself and sort of keep to myself but but actually

[00:03:28] to be a follow Jesus includes and involves wanting other people to follow him as well

[00:03:34] and I was at that age and also sort of throughout my teenage years going to very

[00:03:40] so academic and quite secular schools so I was surrounded by people who were highly intelligent

[00:03:48] and mostly very skeptical of Christianity it wasn't even on their radar as something really

[00:03:54] to consider and my friends had a lot of potentially quite good reasons for not considering Christianity

[00:03:59] whether it was clearly science has just proved creation or whether it was clearly Christians are

[00:04:05] homophobic or a whole range of questions or concerns that would mean that for them Christianity

[00:04:12] wasn't even sort of on the table as it were and I from an early age and throughout my time at

[00:04:19] high school and then throughout my time in university as well went to Cambridge University in the UK

[00:04:23] and was sort of again surrounded by a lot of people who had come from various parts of the world

[00:04:29] and to most of whom were not Christians and would have similar objections to Christianity

[00:04:36] so I was just sort of having conversations with them and trying to explain to them why even though

[00:04:41] the reasons they had for not considering Christianity sort of seemed really good actually if you

[00:04:45] look more closely at them they stopped being a roadblock to faith in Jesus and became a signpost

[00:04:51] so after a number of years in college I actually ended up sort of doing a PhD in English literature

[00:04:58] and then I went to seminary for three years so I spent a full sort of ten years in higher education

[00:05:05] in the UK and along the way I managed to marry a guy from Oklahoma I always give people a minute to

[00:05:10] sort of digest that information because it seems it's probably quite shocking to too many that I

[00:05:15] found a man from Oklahoma in England but he was over there studying as well and we got married

[00:05:21] the year before I graduated from seminary and the year before he graduated from his PhD

[00:05:26] and then we both moved to Cambridge Massachusetts where I'd got a job with a ministry called

[00:05:31] the Veritas Forum and I worked with them for about nine years and one element of what I was

[00:05:37] doing was working with Christian professors from a whole range of universities from you know Harvard

[00:05:42] and Yale to Oxford and Cambridge who were wanting to to share their faith in the university context

[00:05:49] and I was sort of helping to figure out who these people were helping them to think about how to

[00:05:54] talk about their faith in the university context and how it connected with the research and just

[00:06:00] how to communicate that well and after nearly a decade of doing that I felt like I had kind of a

[00:06:07] road map of where the questions really were at when it came to everything from sort of science to

[00:06:13] psychology to a history to sort of literature when it comes to reflections on faith in Jesus

[00:06:21] and I didn't want to keep all of that information to myself so I wrote my first book,

[00:06:25] Cooing Frontic Christianity as a way of sort of sharing all those stories that I'd heard

[00:06:31] the sort of testimonies of these various professors and their research with a larger audience

[00:06:37] organized around the biggest questions that seemed to kind of come up most frequently

[00:06:42] from the people I was encountering and explaining again you know why when we look at each of these

[00:06:47] questions more closely they become reasons to believe in Jesus rather than reasons not to so

[00:06:53] that's a snapshot of how I've got to where I am now. Well that's fantastic how old were you when

[00:07:00] you got married? Oh I was 27, 27 and so your decade then led you into like your mid-30s or late

[00:07:07] 30s and then of your education. Yeah so in the UK do a pitch you quite quickly it's only three years

[00:07:16] so I was 10 years in university from 2018 to 2018 and then I moved to America

[00:07:24] and yeah I worked at the Red House for a till so I was 37 something like that.

[00:07:32] Yeah maybe 38 maybe 38 something a lot of these lines it's also sort of blurring into one at this

[00:07:37] point. I do know my third child Luke was born between me finishing writing and

[00:07:44] confronting Christianity and it getting published so I wrote it while I was pregnant with him

[00:07:50] so as I look at him now he's about to turn six as summer as I look at him now I think oh I've

[00:07:54] said have been doing this particularly kind of thing for as long as he's but a life. It's a good

[00:07:58] challenge post for you. I watched your Q&A with it Tim Keller I think it might have been at the

[00:08:06] gospel coalition and someone you're you're we're talking about confronting Christianity and

[00:08:12] and speaking with these university professors and stuff and it just reminded me someone had

[00:08:18] asked the question about evangelism you know is that just like kind of for the gifted

[00:08:22] or should everybody be doing it and I think they asked it in the opposite like is it okay not

[00:08:28] too and you just you had one word answer you just said no. Everybody should be sharing their face

[00:08:34] so kind of on that thought like what what are some ways I guess confronting Christianity

[00:08:40] sort of takes those topics and then kind of delves them out and you're able to encapsulate

[00:08:46] them in one book so I'd recommend your your book I've read that years ago myself and

[00:08:52] but what are some ways that that people you know maybe could share their faith or what do

[00:08:58] you think it's important do you think it's important to like figure out where someone's coming from

[00:09:02] like the world view, the biblical worldview what what are like what's your go to when you're

[00:09:07] having a conversation with someone that you run into maybe meet on their plane or in an airport or

[00:09:14] yeah I think one of the most helpful things that all of us can do is show a genuine curiosity

[00:09:18] and other people in their lives and they're thinking and that doesn't just mean us being curious

[00:09:25] enough to find out oh this person identifies as Jewish or or Hindu or atheist or agnostic or

[00:09:31] whatever whatever it is but actually then to ask enough questions to figure out what is it that

[00:09:38] they mean by that and how did they come to those beliefs? I think the reality is all of us

[00:09:49] want to be known and loved and all of us recognise that somebody showing a genuine interest in us

[00:09:56] is is actually an active love not I mean I wouldn't sit down with somebody and just sort of

[00:10:03] hang them with questions or make them feel like they're in an interview but to show it a

[00:10:08] a genuine interest in not only what somebody believes but actually also why you know what's

[00:10:13] their story how they come to those beliefs what pieces of their life have shaped them and what

[00:10:19] experiences maybe of Christianity have shaped them as well so that we can understand what their

[00:10:25] starting point is what their assumptions are what they care about most and what agrees them what

[00:10:30] pain is in their their past or in their present that are shaping how they're thinking and having

[00:10:38] really listened to them we will then be in a much better position to do the same back essentially

[00:10:45] to explain to them how it is that we've come to trust in Jesus why we find Jesus to be the most

[00:10:50] compelling answer to life's hardest questions why we find faith in Jesus sort of makes most sense

[00:10:56] of our lived experience even though we probably don't have the answers to all the questions I

[00:11:02] think it's easy for us to kind of feel crippled because gosh what if somebody asked me question

[00:11:07] x, y, or z that I you know I don't well qualified to answer I don't think anyone's expecting

[00:11:12] us to have all the answers to all the questions actually I think it's people find it really refreshing

[00:11:17] if you're willing to say do you know what I don't know um I'll look into that like maybe maybe

[00:11:23] you and I could read a book together and sort of explore that that further so it's not that we have to

[00:11:29] have everything figured out ourselves before we could possibly enter into conversation with someone

[00:11:34] else but we can show what we we do know and we can invite other people to consider Jesus as as

[00:11:43] we have been had the sort of privilege and and blessing of not only considering him but also

[00:11:49] putting our full trust in him and I think I would just encourage people to not assume that other

[00:11:56] people aren't interested even if we feel like they're in a sort of demographic that for one reason

[00:12:02] or another would would make them uninterested so I think of for instance um one of the people I

[00:12:07] may frequently get to chat with is one of the boosters at the coffee shop where I work and she

[00:12:12] identifies as atheist she is living with her girlfriend and on paper said her demographically

[00:12:19] you could absolutely think oh she wouldn't be interested in talking about Jesus

[00:12:23] but we have conversations all the time about Jesus so it's just I would just encourage people not

[00:12:30] not to write anyone off not to assume that people are going to be offended not because nobody

[00:12:35] ever will but because actually we need to give them the opportunity to respond rather than just kind of

[00:12:41] assuming their response ourselves and even if somebody is offended by what we say

[00:12:46] we are the opportunity there to act to respond to their offense in a way that communicates

[00:12:52] Christ's love I love what Peter says in first Peter three when he encourages Christians

[00:13:00] he says you don't we need to always be ready to give a reason for the hope that we have

[00:13:04] but that we should do so with gentleness and respect and I think those those two to sort of

[00:13:10] weapons as we are of gentleness and respect are profoundly powerful in conversations

[00:13:16] and people sometimes think well if you really respect somebody you're never going to disagree with

[00:13:20] them or or challenge them or say that you think that what they believe is wrong I didn't

[00:13:23] that's true at all but people can tell if you do respect them if you are actually kind of engaging

[00:13:31] with them as a human being and not sort of looking down on them or seeing them as a project and

[00:13:37] I think gentleness is also really powerful we don't need to be

[00:13:42] brash or angry or sort of trying to win every argument we can gently come alongside people

[00:13:48] and explain to them why we believe in Jesus and why we long for them too as well.

[00:13:54] That's so great too because we can just be part of their journey you know we don't have to

[00:13:59] seal any deal or try to convince or check something off our box it's just genuinely

[00:14:05] getting to know someone engaging them in conversation and then you know what was it a

[00:14:10] Apollo's watered some water some plant but God gives the increase and so I think that

[00:14:16] that's so great though the way that you answered that I just loved that. I want to switch gears

[00:14:22] to what did it look like for your sort of call to ministry like when did you feel like okay this is

[00:14:30] sort of the lane that God wants me to travel in this is you know my life's work will be dedicated

[00:14:36] to this. Yeah as I said there's an extent to which I've been doing what I'm doing now for as long

[00:14:40] as I can remember sort of having conversations with with skeptical people or people who might

[00:14:46] be curious about Christianity but not not convinced by Jesus. I was doing that sort of on a small

[00:14:52] private scale when I was in high school and I'm doing it now also often on a small private

[00:14:58] scale but sort of simultaneously in books and talks and podcasts and whatnot and honestly I never

[00:15:06] want to be someone who's sort of personal life doesn't align with what they're doing in public.

[00:15:13] I know there's a way for somebody to be sort of standing up on a stage and telling other people

[00:15:18] though you should talk to you or non-Christian friends about Jesus but actually not debating any time

[00:15:24] even having friends who are not Christians or all being too to cowardly or whatever to actually

[00:15:29] do that themselves. I'm always sort of concerned to make sure that that's not where I end up.

[00:15:37] Yeah I think the the process for me was one of just sort of continuing to do what it seemed like

[00:15:44] God had shaped me to do and whereas I do think everyone is cool to evangelism I think it's also

[00:15:50] the case that Christians have different sort of particular gifts and opportunities and so

[00:15:58] equivalently all Christians are called to serve the poor and that's not something that you and

[00:16:02] I can opt out of because it's not our thing. It's actually kind of deeply required of Christians to serve

[00:16:07] the poor but there'll be some people who are called to devote their entire ministry specifically

[00:16:12] to serving the poor and some people who are called you know within their church context to

[00:16:17] be the person who regularly volunteers to serve in the homeless ministry or whatever it is

[00:16:24] and others who are not called to that sort of specifically so I think my best friend Rachel

[00:16:30] sort of often reminds me that I'm at heart and evangelist and that doesn't mean that

[00:16:37] discipleship is an important or care for the poor is unimportant or any of the other things

[00:16:41] that Christians are called to an important but that actually the Lord has shaped me is

[00:16:46] it a more specifically for this thing and that's really what I get up in the morning for

[00:16:51] and and care most about and it's just in the front of my vision actually most of the time even

[00:17:01] I'm reading a novel or watching a film or something I'm often thinking oh that could be a great

[00:17:05] illustration for this that I could write about so it's something that definitely preoccupies me

[00:17:12] yeah and I think the privilege and opportunities I had to get to know some of the leading

[00:17:17] Christian I think is in a whole range of of topic areas was one of the big motivations for me

[00:17:22] to you want to then have a more public ministry just sort of conveying that because at a

[00:17:29] lot of people in the academic world they may be extremely well respected in their field but nobody

[00:17:34] outside of the academic world knows what they're doing when I necessarily know that they're a Christian

[00:17:39] and the other sort of river is it where that float flowed into my desire to write

[00:17:45] confronting Christianity the first book was that when gay marriage was legalized across the

[00:17:50] US in 2015 it seemed to me that a lot of churches were going in one of two directions you know

[00:17:58] some churches were saying well maybe we just need to rethink what the Bible says on same

[00:18:04] sex sexual relationships maybe there's a way that we can kind of accommodate same sex marriage

[00:18:08] four Christians and that's something that I just don't think is is possible and that's

[00:18:16] something that was very personal to me because it's always been a part of my experience that I'm

[00:18:22] sort of typically attracted to women and not to men so it's not something where I open the

[00:18:27] Bible hoping to find that it said no to same sex marriage for believers I would have been more than

[00:18:31] happy you know at one point in my life to find that it didn't but the more that I've examined

[00:18:36] the scriptures the more kind of convinced I am that the message is quite clear and so there

[00:18:41] were Churchill on the one hand that was sort of trying to accommodate same sex sexual relationships

[00:18:47] and then there were Churchill on the other hand who were wanting to sort of double down on

[00:18:53] a more kind of hostile attitude towards people who might identify as gay always been outside

[00:18:58] the church and in a more hostile attitude as well honestly to where people were within the church

[00:19:04] who themselves might struggle with same sex attraction and I felt like the Lord was calling me to

[00:19:14] be a little piece of you know one of the voices hopefully in my many who were calling Christians

[00:19:23] to a faithfulness on this topic that was combined with the kind of love that the scriptures also

[00:19:32] call us to and it was truly routing the our understanding of Christian marriage in the place that

[00:19:41] the Bible calls us to root it which is actually the gospel one of the big misses I think of

[00:19:49] how these conversations have played out when it comes to questions of sexuality is that we

[00:19:53] we haven't recognised that at the heart of Christian marriage is this picture of Jesus' relationship

[00:19:59] with his people which we see actually in the Old Testament we see God presented as a loving

[00:20:04] faithful husband is real is it's often unfaithful wife so we see this mettle building throughout

[00:20:08] the Old Testament we then see Jesus coming and saying he's the bridegroom you know it's one of the

[00:20:14] ways in which he's stepping into the shoes of the Creator God of the Old Testament saying I'm the

[00:20:17] bridegroom I come to playing God's people for myself and then we see in in Paul's letter of

[00:20:22] Ephesians a particular in chapter five Paul makes it very clear that Christian marriage is designed

[00:20:28] to be a little sort of scale model of Jesus love for his people and it's metaphor that comes

[00:20:33] to be bounding back at the end of the Bible in the book of Revelation as this sort of great

[00:20:37] shot goes up the wedding of the lamb has come and Jesus has married to his church brings heaven and

[00:20:41] earth back together so we have this this beautiful picture of marriage as a metaphor for Jesus love

[00:20:51] for his people and that that's actually what Christian marriage is first informed is about

[00:20:57] and that that is a love across different so it's not that it's not a love between two

[00:21:01] and a changeable parties and so that's you know part of the logic behind actually why marriage

[00:21:06] is is male female it's not only about our sort of reproductive capacities but it's also

[00:21:11] about this picture and and once we we sort of put the gospel back at the center of

[00:21:18] or understand new Christian marriage everything else starts to make more sense as well because

[00:21:22] we stop putting marriage in the the top position which often churches do we essentially have a

[00:21:29] kind of idolatrous view of marriage often what we say marriage is the one thing that Christians

[00:21:33] can't live without and that places out sometimes it in Christians saying you know every every

[00:21:40] Christian should get married and like you know we tell our children like one day when you get married

[00:21:45] not never sort of if but like when there's the absolute expectation and if somebody doesn't

[00:21:50] get married then they've sort of missing out on the real thing or sort of completely failing in

[00:21:56] their Christian duty and actually that then messes up or understanding when it comes to

[00:22:04] questions of same-sex sexual relationships because people then sort of understandably say well

[00:22:09] wait a minute how can you say that somebody who is only ever attracted to people of their same

[00:22:13] sex you know could be denied this this ultimate thing of marriage you know it's one of the

[00:22:19] reasons people put forward for saying that Christian should should affirm same-sex marriage

[00:22:24] but actually if we look at the Bible and Paul who has this incredibly high view of Christian marriage

[00:22:29] saying it's you know model of Jesus's love for his people he's a single this is even better

[00:22:33] and we've come completely lost this vision in our modern restaurant church context for

[00:22:38] recognizing that actually both married and single-ness or ways in which Christians can glorify God

[00:22:46] and so I think we've sort of and we've lost sight of the fact that the primary family unit for

[00:22:51] Christians is actually the local church not just the nuclear family so we've there are so many ways

[00:22:57] in which we actually need to become more biblical and not less when it comes to questions of sexuality

[00:23:01] and so you're one of the things that I've been passionate about the last few years that's sort of

[00:23:05] writing on on this topic so to help people understand you know the gospels actually at the centre of

[00:23:10] this and that has implications that actually shape our thinking whether we've grown up in a in a context

[00:23:18] where marriage was seen as the ultimate thing or whether we've grown up in a context where people

[00:23:26] were sort of wanting to affirm same-sex sexual relationships that actually both of these

[00:23:31] don't line up with scripture and we need to we need to be more biblical and not less when it

[00:23:36] comes to these questions. Amen I appreciate that and you just release this new book it's called

[00:23:44] the Bible of Firm same-sex relationships examining 10 claims and scripture about scripture in

[00:23:51] sexuality. I am half about halfway through it and enjoying it but it's your biblical response to the

[00:23:59] L.G. B.T.Q. community and homosexuality and you you've been described as not being shy of controversy

[00:24:08] and I appreciate that because you you speak into these hard topics and tell us tell us a little

[00:24:14] bit more you've talked about the book but one of the questions that that comes up and that I

[00:24:20] thought of is just sharing with because we we can share this it obviously it's written to the church

[00:24:26] but also individuals who who struggle in this way and so one of the things I was thinking through

[00:24:33] is what hope does Christ offer to someone who struggles with same-sex attraction as they begin

[00:24:40] their new relationship with Jesus because that's a question I get a lot of times is you know

[00:24:46] recently someone asked me you know can I be healed when I pursue Christ and where I'm trying to

[00:24:53] become more like him what what hope does Christ offer. Yeah that's a wonderful question and the

[00:25:00] first verse that sort of comes to mind for me is when Paul is writing in in first Corinthians and

[00:25:08] he listen a number of sort of practices that if not repent it will keep people from the kind of

[00:25:14] of God among witches. Sexual morality said abroadly but also he specifically mentioned same

[00:25:19] sex sexual relationships and then he says in 1 Corinthians 6-11 and this is what some of you were

[00:25:26] but you were washed you were sanctified you had justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and

[00:25:29] the Spirit of our God. So so that the first hope that Jesus offers to you to anyone who

[00:25:35] repent and believes and comes to him whatever their past and whatever their current sort of struggles

[00:25:41] and temptations is that in Christ we are washed sanctified and justified. Now I'll sit in it's completely

[00:25:47] taken away and we stand before him righteous because of because of what Jesus has done for us not

[00:25:52] because of our own merits. Now then the Christian life for all of us is going to be an ongoing process

[00:26:00] that Paul himself sort of recognises in his own life of this sort of conflict between our flesh

[00:26:08] and the Spirit and that's going to play itself out in different ways for all of us and it is absolutely

[00:26:15] the case that the Lord can and sometimes does just remove temptation from people. So I think of

[00:26:23] a man I know I think in his sort of 50s or 60s now who when he became a Christian as a young man

[00:26:29] he had a significant pornography addiction and the day that he became a Christian he just lost

[00:26:36] any desire to look at pornography. It just sort of went you know praise God wonderful fantastic

[00:26:42] there be many other questions who really struggle to fight against the the desire to look at pornography

[00:26:49] and this will be an ongoing battle for them or perhaps you think of someone who's recently got married

[00:26:58] and is sort of encountering the reality that just because they've got married doesn't mean

[00:27:04] that they're never attracted to you know women other than their wife for example and needing to

[00:27:08] sort of continually submit themselves to the Lord and in prayer continually you know repent if they

[00:27:14] find themselves drawn towards in it's going to be an ongoing kind of process for all of us and

[00:27:21] when we're all going to have a slightly different sort of set of besetting sins that will

[00:27:26] most likely be the ones that will struggle with. I think sometimes people put

[00:27:33] like design for same sex sexual relationships in a as if it's in like a completely different category

[00:27:39] from from anything else to where surely if somebody's following Jesus they couldn't possibly

[00:27:44] ever be attracted to somebody at the same sex or at least that this should sort of go away at some

[00:27:48] point in the near future. I don't think we have a biblical grounds for for that expectation again

[00:27:57] not because God is not powerful to do that of course he can and somebody's sometimes he does.

[00:28:02] I mean I'm coming across people who have been there experience but I do think we have that promise

[00:28:09] and so I think we need to be careful about sort of setting that expectation because then we can

[00:28:13] leave Christians feeling like oh gosh like I've been a Christian now for a number of years and

[00:28:17] I'm really trying to sort of follow the Lord faithfully and yet this is still something that

[00:28:22] that seems sort of naturally crop up in my heart. Now the fact that something naturally crops up

[00:28:27] in my heart or yours doesn't mean that it's good I mean Jesus is very clear that out of our hearts

[00:28:31] is where all sin comes in fact including sexual sin but it may be that this is something that

[00:28:38] sort of crops up in somebody's heart on a moral and going basis and I think we also need to be careful

[00:28:43] so if I think about myself but happily married to my husband for the last 16 going on 17 years

[00:28:50] anytime I've been attracted to somebody outside of our marriage or on the occasions when

[00:28:54] that's happened it's always been to a woman. Now imagine tomorrow I wake up instead of for the rest

[00:29:03] of my life I was only ever attracted to to other men aside from my husband like if I was ever

[00:29:07] attracted to somebody who was to another man. Well hasn't really changed my situation I mean

[00:29:13] that's actually not particularly good news because it's still a simple attraction like if

[00:29:18] it's to a word another man that's a simple attraction if it's toward another woman it's also

[00:29:23] a simple attraction so it hasn't actually kind of moved me forward a whole lot if suddenly my

[00:29:30] temptation moves from being toward women to being toward men. So I think we need to be careful

[00:29:37] in terms of the expectations that we set and I think we need to make sure that we're sort of

[00:29:45] recognizing that all of us as sexual centers are according to Jesus you know when he says

[00:29:50] you father it was said don't commit adultery but I say to anyone who looks at women with

[00:29:54] lustful intentions already committed adultery so in anonymous is standing on the moral high ground here

[00:30:00] and what all of us need is the spirit's help and each other's help actually we give in each

[00:30:09] other in the Christian life as I love Paul's language here it's sort of fellow soldiers together

[00:30:17] so so what you and I need is people who know as well enough to know our struggles, our sins,

[00:30:25] our sort of most tender dreams and most embarrassing failures like just all the

[00:30:32] things and who are able to speak words of encouragement when we need encouragement, words of

[00:30:36] correction when we need new correction who are able to pray with us, who are able to sort of help

[00:30:41] us move forward in the Christian life and I think that can be really hard to come by for Christians

[00:30:49] attempted towards people at their same sex I think more so often than people who are

[00:30:54] attempted to what people of the opposite sex and so we need to we said we need to check ourselves

[00:30:59] and make sure we're not kind of putting people in a completely different category when actually

[00:31:03] we were all fundamentally in the same boat where we're sexual centers sexual centers going to

[00:31:08] come out of our hearts but if we're in Christ we're also completely forgiven, washed sanctified and

[00:31:14] justified and we need to help each other pursue holiness and repent of sin and yeah,

[00:31:23] strive to be more like Jesus. That's fantastic what do you think kind of digging even into this

[00:31:30] further my husband I were having this conversation about you know where where are those lines when

[00:31:36] we have you let's say you know I'm attracted to another man outside of my marriage when does that

[00:31:45] so you have attraction you have this attraction you have desire but when that desire turns into

[00:31:50] lust like where is that line and how do we define those terms because I think a lot of times

[00:31:56] in the church I've experienced this where people think that it's the attraction that's the sin

[00:32:03] but Christ tells us to take every thought captive right Paul tells us that take every thought captive

[00:32:09] and so you know we were just talking about when does that desire is it the desire

[00:32:15] we were using a practical example like if I look at someone in attraction but then my desire is to

[00:32:22] then let me just be you know vulnerable continue a thought of like oh I would really like to

[00:32:31] pursue that or even have sexual relations with someone I've just crossed over that line and I think

[00:32:37] that line is hard to figure out like when does that desire because I think in I don't know if

[00:32:44] it's in James or if it's in first Corinthians that that desire gives can give birth to sin but

[00:32:51] can we sin before the action yeah it's an important question and it's one that's actually increasingly

[00:32:58] being sort of debated at the moment especially in the around questions of same sex

[00:33:05] sexual attraction or desire broadly speaking and there's a sort of a Protestant tradition

[00:33:15] when it comes to answering the question that you raise there and it's a bit different from

[00:33:20] the sort of Catholic tradition so to give a little sketch of an overview there if we think about like

[00:33:29] the initial attraction that might come out of your on my heart and that comes actually before

[00:33:34] we've made any kind of conscious decision one way or another you know just the sort of fur the

[00:33:38] absolute first thing that comes out of my heart or yours in the reformed tradition actually we would say

[00:33:47] that even that desire even though you and I didn't make a kind of conscious choice about it

[00:33:53] that that is actually a sinful desire in an orbit so it's not like a kind of morally neutral thing

[00:33:59] that we will then either sin on the basis of or not sin on the basis of it's actually

[00:34:04] the sin is already sort of spratted up now of course you know we recognize that you know

[00:34:12] whereas on the one hand Jesus teaches anyone who looks at a woman with lostable intent has already

[00:34:16] committed adultery so we recognize sort of sin goes really deep down and really far

[00:34:22] sort of back in this in this process we also recognize that the person who

[00:34:29] maybe sort of sees someone feels that attraction and then immediately that it depends in

[00:34:33] terms away from it is in a very different situation from the person who sees somebody feels attracted

[00:34:40] because he's that that in their thoughts ask that person out for a drink go you know like

[00:34:46] actually ends up in a sort of a full blown adultery or sexual immorality of whatever kind like we

[00:34:51] we we absolutely know that we have along that road multiple opportunities to to repent and

[00:34:58] to turn back and but that the the whole sort of trajectory of it is it's set now as someone who

[00:35:05] deeply believes the gospel I don't feel too distressed by the reality that my heart

[00:35:15] produces sort of sinful desire of all kinds on a regular basis because actually Jesus knows

[00:35:22] that about me and he has paid the price for my sin now I don't mean that to sound like

[00:35:27] sort of trivializing sin at all but I don't think it leaves us as believers in the sort of

[00:35:36] pit of despair as we notice that our heart you know and it could be a desire towards sexual

[00:35:43] sin or it could be a desire to gossip or it could be a desire to put somebody down or to or it

[00:35:48] could be envy like there are all sorts of sins that can kind of come out of our hearts

[00:35:52] and you know we're pretty creative when it comes to sin we have a whole whole spectrum so I think

[00:35:58] it's really important that we don't put same sex attraction in its own sort of special category

[00:36:04] of sin and say well same sex attraction is in and of itself sinful but actually you know

[00:36:11] your example you know you as a married woman finding another man attractive that sort of

[00:36:17] different well actually they're both they're both sinful desires that are coming out of heart

[00:36:25] so yeah I think and I think we need to be careful that we're not playing the game with our

[00:36:31] selves of like oh how far can I push the envelope you know where is the boundary here because I

[00:36:35] want to sneak right up to the edge of it actually I think we're a much more solid ground to say do you

[00:36:40] know what we already cross the boundary and that doesn't mean we should just carry on it means we need to

[00:36:48] turn right back and and run to Jesus and ask for it for his help and inviting against um you know

[00:36:54] further sin that's fantastic a big amen to that one one last question on this thought and then

[00:37:01] I want to get to another book that you wrote that we just went through as a women's ministry but

[00:37:07] how's the gospel and this would be more talking to the church and and people within the church because

[00:37:13] um in my experience in the last we've been in ministry for 30 years I've been married for almost 40

[00:37:21] and what we're seeing in ministry is the the church is trying to figure this out

[00:37:27] and and trying to be in our pursuit of loving and in wanting people to come to Christ

[00:37:34] what would you say to the church that well first of all how's the gospel good news to the LGB T

[00:37:42] and how can we as the church sort of embody this better or or just pursue this more lovingly

[00:37:52] and more Christ centered yeah that's a great question I experience in my own touch community here

[00:38:01] the the visible evidence of the fact that the the gospel is good news um for people who

[00:38:07] either like me experience same sex attraction or or who have um pursued same sex actual

[00:38:11] relationships because I have a number of brothers and sisters in our church feeling that's that's part

[00:38:15] of their experience um i think it's it's vital for us to truly believe what the Bible says

[00:38:26] now as I mentioned earlier that doesn't just mean to truly believe that the Bible limit sex

[00:38:32] to male female marriage which it does um it also means to truly believe what the Bible says

[00:38:39] about how we should extend love and that we are all sexual sentence before we've or even kind

[00:38:44] of got off the ground oh we have a strong history within the church or seeing ourselves as uh

[00:38:51] righteous and and especially seeing people outside the Christian community who identify as

[00:38:58] gay or lesbian as you know particularly unrighteous and that we can kind of look down on them and

[00:39:04] sort of throw stones at them uh so to speak that if if that's how we feel we are not reading

[00:39:10] our Bible's carefully at all in fact it's sort of fascinating how Paul in his first letter to Timothy

[00:39:16] which is a chapter one it's one of the texts where Paul specifically um describes men having sex

[00:39:23] with other males as against God against God's law he then says this is trust the trust where

[00:39:30] these saying where the afflicts sentence that Christ Jesus came into all the safe sentence of

[00:39:34] whom I am the foremost you know Paul is not standing on his moral high ground saying well

[00:39:39] when you guys um we're as good as I am he actually says jesus saved him to prove that even

[00:39:46] somebody's bad as Paul can be saved and that really should be our posture when we're approaching

[00:39:51] anybody outside the church who doesn't know Jesus because our message is not we're so good

[00:39:55] coming be like us our message is actually we're so bad that Jesus needed to come and die for us

[00:40:01] and I think you need to get in on this as well um and it's good news because ultimately all of us

[00:40:08] long as I mentioned earlier to be known and loved and actually the thing that at heart

[00:40:13] draws us towards sexual relationships of whatever you know whatever kind it is ultimately a desire

[00:40:20] to be known to be loved and and in Jesus we find the one person who knows us to the core

[00:40:27] including our worst thoughts and desires and you know our our pati-ness and our cruelty and

[00:40:34] our lust and our envy and everything and yet he is the one person who who loved us enough to

[00:40:41] die for us so actually it's incredibly good news for anyone outside of Christ that there is

[00:40:48] somebody who loves them that much and someone who can can give them meaning and purpose in

[00:40:53] a way that nothing else can if if the biblical understanding of of marriage is being a little

[00:41:01] scale model of Jesus' love for us people if that is true then then it means that the absolutely

[00:41:06] best that we could ever experience in marriage is just a tiny echo of jesus's love for us

[00:41:12] and so actually nobody who is leaving their desire for whatever sort of sexual romantic

[00:41:19] relationship in order to follow Jesus is losing out because they're they're discarding a fake

[00:41:26] in order to pursue the real thing so I think we need to reorient ourselves around the gospel

[00:41:37] not as some people send us say well can't we just sort of leave aside questions of sexual sin

[00:41:43] and only focus on the gospel well no actually the New Testament time and again

[00:41:48] warns us of the seriousness of sexual sin it's not something that we can just kind of

[00:41:52] agree to disagree about or or leave to the side it's profoundly unloving if we call things good

[00:41:58] that the Bible calls evil but if we are truly believing the Bible then we'll come humbly

[00:42:07] to people will come with love in our hearts and and we'll extend their radical offensive message of

[00:42:13] the gospel which is that all of us were bad enough that we needed Jesus to die for us

[00:42:20] and all of us are invited to be part of his bride to be within his beloved to be

[00:42:27] someone for whom Christ died. Amen I love that I love the the I just love the story of

[00:42:34] the wedding even the betrothal the wedding and then the wedding feast as just a way of

[00:42:40] thinking through even our discipleship and Christ you know just that progression and

[00:42:45] and you've written several books and and I'm excited to finish that one that you've just written

[00:42:51] but you also wrote one called Jesus through the eyes of women which is our theme for our

[00:42:57] conferences here and we as a ministry we just went through it in our ladies I just will tell you

[00:43:03] that absolutely loved it the discussions we've had the conversations we've had around just looking

[00:43:09] at Jesus through the eyes of women was incredible but why was this book important to you and

[00:43:17] why was it important why is it important for you to highlight the experiences of women in

[00:43:23] scripture for women today? Yeah it's interesting I wrote the book not especially for women

[00:43:32] though I'd I'm glad that it's sort of being helpful to women because I think

[00:43:37] the gospel authors invite us on multiple occasions to look at Jesus through the eyes of women

[00:43:44] and that's true at the very beginning of his life on earth when we're dependent upon women

[00:43:49] for the accounts of Jesus' virgin birth and sort of miraculous conception and it's true right at

[00:43:56] the end when we're dependent on the the witnesses of women two Jesus' resurrection and it's also

[00:44:05] true it's sort of multiple points when we see Jesus having particular conversations in particular

[00:44:10] relationships with women in the gospels so what I was wanting is to do was to just sort of

[00:44:17] gather together at the stories of Jesus conversations in relationships with both named and unnamed

[00:44:23] women in the gospels and to see you know what as Jesus looked like through their eyes and again

[00:44:28] it sort of sounds like a very modern project but it's actually one it's something that the gospel

[00:44:34] authors invite us to do one of the interesting things if you read through the gospels you're

[00:44:40] notice that there are some people who are named and other people are not named and if you sort

[00:44:45] of step back to think about it sort of a little bit curious that some people are named and other people

[00:44:48] are not named and the reason for that likely is that the people who are named are being cited

[00:44:55] specifically as eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry so the idea was you know if you don't believe me

[00:45:01] going in our Mary Magdalene or whoever it is, yeah, who's being referenced like this is the person

[00:45:07] he can go to to instead of go to the horse's mouth as it were and multiple times

[00:45:13] through the gospels you know women are named as witnesses of Jesus' ministry

[00:45:20] and then there are these incredible moments like the conversation Jesus has with the

[00:45:25] Samaritan woman at the well who famously has had five husbands and is now living with man who she's

[00:45:30] not married to Jesus has started that conversation knowing full knowing all of that about her

[00:45:35] he's not kind of surprised by this information in fact he sort of tells her this information

[00:45:40] and that's the longest private recorded conversation he has with anyone in any of the gospels

[00:45:45] and in that conversation with the woman at the well that's the first time in John's gospel

[00:45:51] that he explicitly reveals himself as the Christ so we have there with that sort of unnamed Samaritan

[00:45:57] woman who you know she's surprised Jesus has even talked and turned the verse play is because

[00:46:02] Jesus and Samaritan he's a Jew, Jews and Samaritan did not associate he's a man she's a woman

[00:46:06] he's a rabbi she's I was just like he broke all the rules to have that conversation

[00:46:12] and yet he did and not only sort of briefly but actually in a very kind of extended and important

[00:46:19] way or I think of the the story in Luke's gospel when a sinful woman of the city comes and sort

[00:46:27] of throws herself down at Jesus feet and starts weeping on his feet and washing his feet with her

[00:46:32] hair and this is a major embarrassment Jesus having dinner at the house of a guy called Simon the

[00:46:37] Pharisee and it's sort of striking in that story that Simon the Pharisee has named and this

[00:46:42] sinful amount of the city is unnamed and then as the story unfolds we find that Jesus completely

[00:46:49] sides with the woman you know Simon's reaction to this woman is he's he's he's he's a

[00:46:54] Paul he's like if Jesus was really a prophet he would know what kind of women this is he's touching him

[00:46:58] and she wouldn't want anything to do with her and yet Jesus then holds her up as a

[00:47:04] moral example like an example of love to shame Simon the Pharisee so we have all these sort of

[00:47:11] moments where Jesus chooses to lift individual women up especially

[00:47:19] women who would have been completely sort of discarded in terms of the society of his day

[00:47:24] especially by the kind of religious works of his day and and recognize that no these are women who

[00:47:31] are coming to Jesus with their need, with their sin, with their often their set of desperation

[00:47:39] and he is meeting the right where they're at so yeah I wanted to just kind of give people

[00:47:46] access to that it's really you know that but really just kind of gather together these different stories

[00:47:50] and invites us all to you know look more carefully at what Jesus looks like through these women's eyes

[00:47:57] rather fantastic in in your process of of writing um because we just don't have podcast on

[00:48:05] writing Bible studies but in your process of writing this sort of gets into just like the

[00:48:10] technical nitty gritty of of what you do what's your method of of studying like go to resources

[00:48:17] like how long does a book take you to write is it different for some book sort of what does

[00:48:23] give us a glimpse of into Rebecca's life or what that looks like day to day yeah it depends

[00:48:29] in all for lot to be honest um I write most mornings my kids are in school in the mornings and

[00:48:34] it's when my brain is best for writing and by the time they're back from school my brain's

[00:48:38] pretty much toast anyway so it sort of works out quite well um yeah different books can take

[00:48:44] very different lengths of time I think actually Jesus through the eyes of women was the book I wrote

[00:48:48] most quickly with a possible exception of I wrote in a couple of very short of angelistic books

[00:48:54] like um is Christmas unbelievable and it's these drumbley we'll have to get exactly how long they

[00:48:57] took so maybe maybe they were quicker um but yeah that one came at very very quickly um my book on

[00:49:05] friendship actually is the one that so far I was taking me the longest right and they're great

[00:49:10] allow the biblical vision for friendship so yeah it really depends and um I tend to spend

[00:49:19] quite a lot of time you know with the Bible itself because my book's tend to be sort of pretty

[00:49:26] anchored and grounded there um I then I spent quite a bit of time reading books by non-Christians

[00:49:34] um actually probably at least as much time as I do reading books by Christians um if not more

[00:49:43] because I always wanted to be thinking how does my how does what I'm saying potentially connect

[00:49:48] with somebody who's not a Christian like how can I understand more where people are coming from

[00:49:54] and so yeah each book will have a different particular purpose most of my books I write

[00:50:02] with a non-Christian reader sort of first and foremost in mind but there are exceptions to that

[00:50:06] so for example does the Bible of Famous same-sex relationships is actually written predominantly

[00:50:10] for Christians who are sort of trying to figure this out whereas confronted Christianity and

[00:50:16] tank questions every teen should ask of written for for non-Christians um so yeah I really

[00:50:23] really depends but I'd I'd love to write so it doesn't feel odd you guys so so when you're talking

[00:50:28] like Jesus through the eyes of women like how how long was that to what kind of time frame was

[00:50:35] that gosh I submitted if I'm recording correctly I submitted the manuscript for confronting

[00:50:41] Jesus on the first of October and I wrote Jesus through the eyes of women

[00:50:51] between then and January so it was really nice wow that's fantastic

[00:50:58] like so the like three four months is that's a quick process and does that take you like

[00:51:04] or you were you probably you said when your kids are in school which goes to another

[00:51:08] question that someone gave me is just balancing family and ministry you know you're taking the

[00:51:15] kids to school and then you're coming home and writing for a little bit and so is that is that like

[00:51:20] six hours a day for for five days a week or you sort of just in that routine of that yeah I mean

[00:51:26] thankfully my husband takes our son to school or puts it get some ready for the bus and

[00:51:30] pops him on the bus and then our girls go to school and our later and I usually get kind of an

[00:51:34] hours writing time in before I hang out with them they can get themselves to school but I tend to

[00:51:40] hang out with my younger daughter over breakfast and then what my older daughter to school

[00:51:44] I'm just to have the chat time yeah and then I work I mean they they finish school

[00:51:50] my son gets off the bus at 10 past two so I have a good chunk of time to write which is great

[00:51:59] yeah and we we've talked before and this is just sort of again those choices we make when

[00:52:05] God calls us to do something that we have to say no to other things things and lunches with friends

[00:52:11] or you know some things that you have to say no to in order to do what God's called you to do

[00:52:16] where does that look like in your life yeah I actually I mean there are a lot of things that I

[00:52:24] say no to but most of the things that I say no to are things in the kind of realm of public ministry

[00:52:29] so it's talks and writing opportunities and things because it's really important for me to

[00:52:35] guard time with my local community here not just with my immediately family but also with

[00:52:41] church community and sort of with friends and whatnot here so yeah I strongly prioritise

[00:52:51] having proper connection time with people in our church community and and beyond here as well

[00:52:59] so yeah most of my the vast majority of my nose are to speaking and writing opportunities

[00:53:05] for the sake of that wow and I I actually love that because you're really showing that balance of

[00:53:10] like really that tension of like well I could I could have so many more opportunities but I

[00:53:15] say no to that because God's also given me a family and a church community to dive into and

[00:53:22] and have conversations and relationships there so I think that's important for anyone especially

[00:53:27] with our social media and you know just the YouTube and influencers and all of this people

[00:53:34] but what we've seen in ministry now is a lot of idolatry to being a public figure then

[00:53:41] more so than what does Jesus want me to do with my day. Yeah I think that's a real risk and you know

[00:53:49] there are more examples than we could count of Christians sadly who have become entangled in their

[00:53:58] public ministry and sort of basically lost sight of who they are in Christ because their

[00:54:05] Tbusie figuring out who they are in in the eyes of you know the masses of people who are watching them

[00:54:13] I think that is profoundly sad and profoundly wrong so I never I'll never want to find myself

[00:54:24] in that situation and part of how I try to say to God against that is having a handful of people

[00:54:32] my life who I don't have any secrets from and who we're in a position where they can tell me

[00:54:38] where I'm going wrong and whether I'm getting sort of myself or whatever it is yeah it's sad and

[00:54:48] foolish when people start to prioritize the sort of public audience as it were over there and

[00:54:55] what with the Lord and in private and there they're in their kind of relationships and their

[00:55:01] immediate life. Yeah and that accountability community is so important because a lot of

[00:55:07] it's celebrities within the church but just celebrities in general you know we're live we live close to

[00:55:13] Los Angeles and just celebrities in general the sort of the trajectory that you see them go wrong

[00:55:19] in is that they start putting people around them that won't speak the truth into their lives you know

[00:55:25] that then sort of tell them what they want to hear and feed the beast as it was.

[00:55:32] If you could have a live conversation with any woman of the Bible who would it be and why?

[00:55:38] I think it's between Mary the Mother of Jesus and Martha of Bethany. There are so many

[00:55:51] Mary's in the gospels because Mary was a very, very common name. If Jesus is time in place

[00:55:57] but I think we'd be fascinated to talk with Mary the Mother of Jesus I think it would be

[00:56:02] also fascinated to with Martha to whom Jesus said those are astonishing words I am the resurrection

[00:56:06] life anyone who believes in me even though he dies will live and whoever lives and believes in me

[00:56:10] will never die to you believe this. So yeah one of those two. Yeah yeah with this they're

[00:56:18] in a table in a strong cup of tea with just a few hours to have them well thank you so much

[00:56:24] for chatting with us Rebecca and I know you're busy and thanks for taking the time and

[00:56:30] for those who are listening if you want to hear more from Rebecca which I cannot wait

[00:56:34] for you to come out and join us but it'll be October 18th and 19th in myriad of California

[00:56:40] and our registrations open and our early bird pricing ends August 11th so visit when she leads.org

[00:56:47] not the information on speakers breakout topics, meals, accommodations everything is on there for you

[00:56:52] so thanks for joining us thanks so much Rebecca what a pleasure thanks Brenda take care