Loving the Ones Who Drive You Crazy: How and Why Christians Should Pursue Unity in the Church - with Jamie Dunlop

[00:00:00] Why did God put difficult paper in your church? Well, so that you could love them and show

[00:00:08] the world and show even the heavens above as we see in Ephesians chapter 3. That those

[00:00:13] differences the world would see as fatal to your friendship are actually no contests

[00:00:18] for the bond you share in Christ.

[00:00:20] In this episode I speak with Jamie Dunlop. Jamie is an associate pastor at Capital Hill

[00:00:28] Baptist Church in Washington DC, a church that is only a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol

[00:00:33] Building.

[00:00:34] Jamie discusses how their church has navigated some of the difficult social issues

[00:00:38] of the past few years by determining to be what they call a Christ alone type of church.

[00:00:44] In this episode we discuss the goal of Christian unity in the midst of a divided society and

[00:00:50] how to pursue it.

[00:00:52] Where do you draw the lines? How do you determine which issues are primary issues? And why

[00:00:57] is it important to love those who are different from you in the body of Christ? I hope

[00:01:02] you'll enjoy this conversation. I'll be back at the end with some closing comments.

[00:01:07] Jamie, thanks for being on Theology for the people. Oh, it's great to be here. Thank

[00:01:13] you so much, Nick.

[00:01:14] Well, first of all, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry for

[00:01:17] the sake of our listeners? Sure. I serve as one of the pastors at a church

[00:01:23] called Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. The church is about six blocks from the

[00:01:29] U.S. Capitol Building. So if you're listening next time you see that building on television

[00:01:33] you can pray for our church. I've been serving in the church as one of the staff pastors

[00:01:38] for the last 14 years roughly. I was one of the non-staff elders before then. I've been

[00:01:44] at the church for about 25 years and I'm married. I'm actually recording this from my wife's

[00:01:49] office at the moment and have three school-aged kids grew up in Chicago and became a Christian

[00:01:56] as a child. I ended up in pastro ministry mainly just because I love this church and when

[00:02:04] it seemed the best way to serve it was to quit my job in business which I've been

[00:02:07] in for 10 years and come join the church as a staff member, I was delighted to do that.

[00:02:13] Yeah, that's cool. So is that Mark Devar? He's the pastor there. That's correct. He's

[00:02:16] my boss. Gotcha. Yeah, I'm a pastor. Yes. I talked to another guy. I don't think he

[00:02:22] was on staff at your church but he wrote a book. Also in Nine Mark's book it was on church

[00:02:26] planting. I think his name's Nathan. Nathan Knight. Yes. Nathan Knight. I spoke with him.

[00:02:31] That was nice. He's here in DC also. Right. Yeah. Well cool. So tell us a little bit about

[00:02:37] your book. It's called Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy. Eight truths for pursuing unity

[00:02:41] in your church. I read it. I enjoyed it. I thought it was very practical. I'd love

[00:02:46] to think about some more of the theological side of it as opposed to the practical side

[00:02:51] but it is a book about how to pursue unity in church, even in the face of conflicts, diversity,

[00:02:58] disagreements. And I'm curious what was the backstory to this? Like what happened that

[00:03:02] caused you to want to write on this topic? Yeah. 2020 and 2021 happened. Yeah. So

[00:03:09] I'm in a church which I think because we're in a political city and a very political neighborhood

[00:03:16] with a fairly political congregation. We have, and we're pretty diverse church law in many

[00:03:21] different dimensions. We have long had to grapple with what it looks like to be in a church

[00:03:27] where some people make you uncomfortable but where we are together is the family of God

[00:03:32] because of our shared love for Jesus and his shared spirit that is within us. But I think those

[00:03:41] years were more challenging. I talk about it very briefly at the beginning of the book,

[00:03:46] more challenging than we had been used to. And though we certainly did not pass with flying

[00:03:53] colors all the time as a congregation, I saw a strength of unity in the congregation. I had

[00:03:59] not observed before. Even when I was the one driving them crazy, I saw a kind of love that was

[00:04:10] not grounded in superficial agreement but grounded in our commonality and Christ that was

[00:04:16] different than I had seen before. And through those years I was also doing a close study

[00:04:21] in the book of Romans. And I just kept kind of mapping on what I was seeing around me in the

[00:04:27] congregation with what I was seeing as Paul speaks to these. I think wildly diverse churches in

[00:04:32] Rome where you had Jews and Gentiles with all kinds of differences and disagreements. And I thought,

[00:04:38] I think there's a story to tell here. I think that kind of going from my church more broadly,

[00:04:43] there's a different challenge to church's unity today than many people at least in my demographic

[00:04:51] have been used to. So talk to many pastors about the worship wars of the 1990s and it feels like,

[00:04:58] oh gosh, if we can only go back to those peaceful days, there's just so much more to disagree on

[00:05:03] today. And sometimes the thing were just things to disagree with our gospel issues that honestly

[00:05:09] should split churches where we should value gospel fidelity over unity but very often I think

[00:05:17] I think because we think about church with a consumeristic mindset, we are not prepared for the

[00:05:24] difficulty of loving people who are quite different from us. And the answer is not to split the

[00:05:29] church or to leave the church. The answer is to figure out new resources to love the church and

[00:05:34] that's what the book is about. Yeah, that's great. In your introduction you talk about conflict in

[00:05:39] the church as evidence of faith. I thought that was very intriguing. So could you maybe explain

[00:05:45] that a little bit more? Yeah, I mean it's not always true, right? Sometimes conflict in the

[00:05:52] church is because we're sinners and because we've given into our sinful nature and that's obviously

[00:05:58] a problem. And yet I think the longer I'm the pastor, the more I realize that sometimes conflict

[00:06:05] is simply because of differences that we have within the church and the reason we have those

[00:06:09] differences either differences of conviction or background or preference, the reason we have

[00:06:15] those differences is because we've resisted what we all I think naturally want to do which is to

[00:06:21] build a church that's centered around our preferences and our backgrounds and our convictions. And

[00:06:26] instead we built a church which is centered on Christ alone. And to some extent when we see those

[00:06:32] differences that emerge as conflict, as I say in the book, it may not be the things that go on

[00:06:39] tragically wrong like I think our first instinct is but things have gone wonderfully right that we've

[00:06:44] said no, we actually do want this church built around Christ not Christ and Gentile culture or

[00:06:51] Christ and Jewish culture is would be in the case in the first century Roman church but just on

[00:06:56] Jesus and we should be prepared for all the differences that emerge as a result.

[00:07:02] Yeah, it's good. And so yeah, just could you speak more about that idea of being a Christ alone

[00:07:07] kind of church? Like what do you have in mind when you say that? Yeah. I guess what I have in mind

[00:07:13] is how you define the church. Are you going to say this is a church which for all practical purposes

[00:07:19] is for people who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ? And also are committed to homeschooling

[00:07:28] and our strong supporters of the nation state of Israel and the modern conflict with Gaza

[00:07:34] or in Gaza. And like contemporary music, you kind of see where that goes. I think there's something

[00:07:41] deep in all of us that expects church to be a comfortable place where we identify with people and

[00:07:47] they understand us. And so even though what I just described sounds ridiculous, I think there's

[00:07:54] a part of us that is kind of drawn that direction. And so when we did you know I think about yesterday

[00:08:00] there was a woman in my church as a student just joined the church. I think politically she may

[00:08:06] come from a different place than many of my members. She happened to be at a lunch the other day

[00:08:11] with a bunch of people who all worked for an administration that she never thought she would ever

[00:08:17] support in her life. And now suddenly she's just become a Christian. These people at her church

[00:08:22] clearly are very different from her politically. And she's at first weirded out and then she realizes

[00:08:29] no there's no reason why you can't be a Christian and disagree with me politically. And she actually

[00:08:35] grabbed a copy of the book to start reading through to kind of help her think through a different

[00:08:40] sense that she had not expected to see in church before. Yeah, we all have to get there at some

[00:08:45] point. I think that's interesting. I mean, I could actually, you know, not to be pointed or anything.

[00:08:52] I've actually heard people say that about Capitol Hill Baptist Church for example they'll say,

[00:08:56] I like that church because they sing hymns or because of the pastoral prayer or because of

[00:09:03] Mark's preaching and things like that. I mean, don't you think that that's pretty hard to avoid

[00:09:09] that consumeristic mindset no matter how hard you try? Yes, but it doesn't mean we give into it.

[00:09:18] And I also say it's you know, you mentioned a few aspects of my church,

[00:09:23] you know, were the hymns singing church with a young congregation and the old fashioned church

[00:09:28] in an urban center kind of some, you know, unique combinations. That forms the culture of our church.

[00:09:35] You know, were 70% white? You're going to feel that in the church. Were mainly politically conservative.

[00:09:42] You're going to feel that in the church where mainly people who have good educations. You're

[00:09:47] going to feel that in the church and it would be wrong and dishonest to me to deny that there's

[00:09:52] a certain character to my church. That means that some people are going to fit in quite naturally.

[00:09:57] Some people are not. I think the job of the majority whatever dementia you're looking at is to

[00:10:03] embrace the minority is I think Paul talks in the book of Romans. So you don't want to pretend like

[00:10:09] there is no majority or no kind of culture or character to your church. At the same time,

[00:10:15] you want to make sure that the church isn't defined exclusively on those dimensions and that we really

[00:10:19] can love each other across a variety of differences. Yeah, in your introduction, this is page 7.

[00:10:26] You mentioned this. You say if your church is built on Christ alone, then people won't get it,

[00:10:32] right? That you bring up issues that are important to you. Church leaders won't get it on issues

[00:10:36] that are important to you and sometimes people will feel like you're failing to speak profetically

[00:10:43] in a certain moment. People in your church want to understand you, your church will also not be

[00:10:49] insulated from society's controversies. And so I'd like to dive into that. I'm not exactly

[00:10:53] sure how to express it or which questions to ask. So I'd love it if you'd help me out a little bit.

[00:10:59] I definitely have felt that. I'll tell you the way that our church, when we felt that we

[00:11:03] navigated the pandemic pretty well in focusing on, we really felt like we were focusing on this idea

[00:11:10] of having a higher calling. We studied through first Corinthians during that time. We also studied

[00:11:14] through first and second kings for part of that. And as part of first and second kings,

[00:11:18] the idea that all kings and kingdoms fail but they stir within us this desire for the kingdom which

[00:11:26] is to come. And so we felt that we navigated it well but then lately, which is interesting. It

[00:11:34] wasn't even during the pandemic but it's almost been in almost like the pendulum swing since the

[00:11:39] pandemic. I've been seeing a lot of stuff with some people I know but also some people online

[00:11:44] really saying, you know, we need to push back against this idea of being what you would call a

[00:11:49] Christal-owned kind of church and actually lean more into, you know, basically just sharing our

[00:11:55] opinions on things because everybody's going to get their opinions swayed by things. And so if we

[00:12:00] believe that these are good Christian convictions about maybe we'd say tertiary issues, then we should

[00:12:05] really emphasize those and not be afraid to talk about them. What would you say? Have you seen

[00:12:11] that kind of response? What do you think? Maybe I'll start with an example. So in the same time period

[00:12:18] I was talking about you brought up COVID that was certainly a challenge for many congregations and

[00:12:24] my church no different. We had lots of different ideas about how we should navigate that.

[00:12:29] I think another thing was the murder of George Floyd and at least in my neighborhood being next

[00:12:34] to the Capitol, the protests that resulted from that and some of those turned into riots and you had

[00:12:43] you know, blue lives matter, black lives matter, slogans being thrown around, being hung from

[00:12:50] church buildings around the city. And I had members of my church who felt like the only Christian

[00:12:58] thing was to go march in some of those protests. I have members of my church who because of some

[00:13:04] particularly what the organization black lives matter aligned with that the only Christian answer

[00:13:10] was to not do that. There were representatives of both sides who felt like we should offer much

[00:13:18] clear a direction from the pulpit. Maybe even to the point of saying you know if you do such as

[00:13:24] such, you can't be a member, you'll be excommunicated because you're you're an unrepentant sin.

[00:13:30] You mentioned tertiary issues. Every church has to decide what it's tertiary issues are.

[00:13:37] As elders, we decided this was an area where people could feel passionately and where their

[00:13:44] faith could honestly motivate them in different directions. And we didn't have to say you know if

[00:13:51] you march in that you're going to no longer remember a church or if you don't march in that you

[00:13:56] won't be a member of our church. I think it's a good example where if you thought the church

[00:14:02] would be the safe place where you could go and not have to think about those issues or where

[00:14:07] you wouldn't find people who disagree with you on these matters or where we would all think alike

[00:14:15] you were sadly mistaken. And I think we often find that the controversies around the church

[00:14:24] end up inside the church because they end up being about tertiary matters. And that's that's extra

[00:14:31] hard because it's one thing to see people disagree with you in the world around. It's easy to say

[00:14:36] well, it's the world what to expect when it's inside your church you feel very differently.

[00:14:41] And so that's you know back to the kind of idea of a Christ alone church. Not all issues fall

[00:14:46] into that category. And some churches may say you know what? You may not think this is a gospel

[00:14:51] issue. We do and we're going to draw the line in different place and I think we need to respect

[00:14:56] the fact that different churches would do that differently. But the principle still applies

[00:15:00] that where where church has not drawn that line we need to be comfortable and ready

[00:15:05] to be with people who do feel very differently than us who think differently

[00:15:09] us even have different erasive conscience than we do. So tell me where you want to take that then.

[00:15:14] No I think that's good and I think that some of the pushback I've seen I think it has a lot more

[00:15:20] to do with tone you know people saying you know that we shouldn't be trying to and this is

[00:15:27] where I think they're making assumption. They shouldn't be trying to pander or like soft pedal

[00:15:32] things that you know are controversial issues in society because of fear. And so they would say

[00:15:39] that it's if you're doing it out of cowardice which they I would say they assume that if you are

[00:15:44] Christ alone church they are not addressing you know certain what we would what we've just

[00:15:50] discussed is tertiary issues. You're not discussing them because you are afraid and so therefore

[00:15:57] you're taking a third way if you will right of saying well neither the it's not binary you don't

[00:16:03] have to choose this or that you can choose a third way. And I think that their big assumption is

[00:16:09] that people who aren't doing what they're doing are cowardly which I think is a bit of a straw man

[00:16:15] argument. But I guess yeah I know that in our case and it sounds like what you're describing with

[00:16:21] the Christ alone church is the idea that we were not by any means afraid of talking about anything

[00:16:30] what we were doing was saying that we're part of this global body of Christ and we've been following

[00:16:36] Jesus for two thousand years. And so trying to have a little bit of big perspective on this like

[00:16:43] how does this fit into the broader body of Christ it you know kind of as opposed to like a myopic

[00:16:48] view that only sees the thing in front of you as being like the thing that has ever been or ever

[00:16:54] will be because you know what I found is that these things come in waves and you know if you look

[00:17:01] back 10-15 years ago the things that everybody was talking about with the sky falling we realized

[00:17:06] that actually the sky wasn't falling social media promotes a lot of things bigger than maybe it was

[00:17:12] fallen in a different way than we anticipated at the time. Yeah yeah and then trying to actually the

[00:17:17] the best way to prepare people to deal with the issues of the day is actually by helping them be

[00:17:24] rooted and grounded in Christ and that was our conviction so yeah so I guess we kind of respond

[00:17:30] into the I would very much agree you know one of one of the the questions that every church is

[00:17:37] going to face is I mentioned earlier we're going to draw that line where where do you side that

[00:17:43] this particular you know agreement on this particular social matter may not be technically

[00:17:49] gospel issue but it's so close to a gospel issue we need to draw the line there so is you know to

[00:17:54] take an example that Evangelca was a familiar with can you be a gospel church and not believe

[00:18:02] that the Bible is the inherent inspired word of God I think technically the answer is yes but it's

[00:18:09] not going to last very long and so as a church we've said you can't be a member of our church unless

[00:18:14] you believe the Bible is the inherent inspired word of God someone else might say well this you know

[00:18:22] giving into culture on this particular issue is the path to theological liberalism therefore we're

[00:18:29] going to draw the line there and say you can't call yourself a Christian if you if you you know do

[00:18:36] X Y R Z well you know those are hard questions every church has to make as members of the church I

[00:18:43] in one sense is a little bit easier because my pastors my elders have probably already made that

[00:18:49] determination and my congregation has when they wrote our church a statement of faith and so I can

[00:18:56] I can assume that if it's not in the statement of faith it means that it doesn't cross that line

[00:19:02] and if if my church hasn't taught that you know such and such is beyond the pale for a Christian

[00:19:09] well then it's not in which case I need to recognize that you can err on both sides so on the one hand

[00:19:17] yes you can maybe for cowardly reasons or for other motivations not stand up when you should

[00:19:25] on the other hand when you stand up when you shouldn't and you take a stand against other members

[00:19:31] of your church when you shouldn't well that's what Paul calls factions which he condemns along with

[00:19:37] witchcraft and orgies and other things in Galatians 5 when he talks about the works of the flesh

[00:19:42] so the idea that there's sort of a you know lean on the side of safety I don't think

[00:19:48] applies in these matters we need to be careful to divide when the gospel that's stake and to love

[00:19:56] when it isn't and there's there's no safe way to lean yeah so in your book you give eight truths

[00:20:04] for pursuing unity in the church or in your church yeah I really liked I was looking for

[00:20:10] as I was reading the book is like is he gonna mention Ephesians chapter 4 verse 3 where he talks about

[00:20:16] being eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace and I thought that was great

[00:20:22] could you walk us through some of those truths and were there any that were particularly meaningful

[00:20:27] or relevant to you as you wrote the book that's a great question um I mean you're right to be

[00:20:33] eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace I think I said in the introduction

[00:20:36] that's that's kind of the book it's a practical guide to how do you do that eight truths I

[00:20:41] mentioned at the very beginning of our time together that the book just walks through Romans 12

[00:20:47] a little bit of Romans 13 Romans 14 and the beginning of Romans 15 because I think what Paul gives

[00:20:53] there is kind of eight different perspectives to look at the difficult relationships you have at

[00:20:58] church so that you can see them from a different vantage point and potentially find in Christ

[00:21:06] through the gospel new enthusiasm for loving a new appreciation for why those people in your

[00:21:11] church so I'll just walk through the eight number one the question I have is why did God put

[00:21:16] difficult people my church I think we all ask that sometimes and what I see there in Romans 12

[00:21:21] and in 14 is that our insistence our unity displays the glory of God so why did God allow differences

[00:21:27] in the church well because I think what we see there in Romans 15 especially is that

[00:21:33] the differences between Jew and Gentile that could have divided them nonetheless were incorporated

[00:21:42] into the church and their love for each other despite those differences I think honored God

[00:21:47] great glory to God in ways that were beyond what it would have been if they had all agreed

[00:21:52] on everything in the first place and so in the same way in your church why did God put difficult

[00:21:57] people in your church well so that you could love them and show the world and show even the heavens

[00:22:02] above as we see in Ephesians chapter three that those differences the world would see as fatal

[00:22:07] to your friendship are actually no contest for the bond you share in Christ. Second question how can

[00:22:14] I love those people the second truth impossible love flows from impossible mercy that's Romans 12

[00:22:20] one where Paul takes all that theology and chapters 1 to 11 and he says in view of that mercy

[00:22:28] present your body's plural as a living sacrifice single holy and pleasing to God but just like

[00:22:33] Jesus did in Luke 6 when he tells us to love our enemies he says be merciful even as your heavenly

[00:22:38] father is merciful you know if you say I can't love that person the best I can too is just

[00:22:44] avoid them and try to have you know some kind of lack of conflict I want to say to you I think

[00:22:49] you have an excellent description of the situation in a bad prescription you're right you can't

[00:22:55] love them but that's kind of the whole point and yet if you truly understand the mercy God has

[00:23:01] shown to you that will overflow in love for God which results in love for other people including

[00:23:07] that person and you'll find you have strength to love that is beyond your own strength which

[00:23:12] again is the whole point that's how it glorifies God and not you. Number three what I don't want to

[00:23:17] love them picking up on some truths that Paul has in chapter 12 and 14 disunity a church lies about

[00:23:25] Jesus the what's at stake here is not just your own comfort it's it's the truth about Jesus Christ

[00:23:32] that that he is enough to hold us together and we should always be thinking not just our

[00:23:38] about our own reputation but his reputation at church. Number four wouldn't would be better off

[00:23:43] without them like I know the Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 that these people are indispensable to

[00:23:48] the body but couldn't maybe indispensable to somebody else's body which I feel sometimes even as a

[00:23:53] pastor like oh lord why you know why them and Paul gives us some I think some profound teaching

[00:24:00] there near the beginning of Romans 12 when he he says hey those people who are different from you

[00:24:07] that's the nature of the body of Christ use that body image that he uses elsewhere in his letters

[00:24:12] he says you are members one of another in other words you you belong to each other I find

[00:24:18] interesting in 1 Corinthians 12 he uses that body image you'd essentially say you need each other

[00:24:23] which is true and Romans 12 he says not only do you need each other you belong to each other

[00:24:31] and I see that as an invitation you know God in his sovereignty has put you in church with that

[00:24:37] person there's a reason for that if you persevere in love that you can trust that there's something

[00:24:44] there for you is you continue to love that person you'll the image I mentioned the book it's

[00:24:50] like a blended family you know mom or dad die or there's a divorce and there's a new marriage

[00:24:56] you've got your step siblings day one you love them because you're supposed to love them

[00:25:02] if things go well day you know 153 you realize a week along together we're really a family

[00:25:11] and that's the invitation we have in the church and number five how can I be friends with those

[00:25:16] people that the main thing I'm thinking about there is where Paul commands us to love each other

[00:25:23] with affection with zeal to honor each other there are Romans chapter 12 verses 9 to 12 and it's like how

[00:25:34] how can you do that right it's one thing to say don't fight with them it's another thing to say

[00:25:40] put up with them being in your church but Paul says we should love them with affection as brothers

[00:25:45] and sisters and I think the kind of cons of the animates that section of Romans 12 is the idea of hope

[00:25:53] that hope in what God is doing in those people is a powerful way that we can actually enjoy

[00:26:03] the friendships together not just put up with each other and I explain that more in that chapter

[00:26:09] number six how can I really forgive these people I'm just struck as a pastor how often people

[00:26:15] intend to forgive others in the church and yet there is no restoration of their relationship

[00:26:21] it doesn't mean you can always experience restoration sometimes sin destroys a relationship and

[00:26:27] real forgiveness can't put it back together and yet I think often we let ourselves off too easy

[00:26:33] and so the truth there I talk about is divine justice and power is full forgiveness so Paul talks

[00:26:39] about the ends of end of Romans chapter 12 that I think what we call forgiveness sometimes

[00:26:44] falls short of what the Bible calls us to do because our forgiveness doesn't fully grapple with

[00:26:49] the injustice that forgiveness entails and the only way we can really embrace that injustice is by

[00:26:56] embracing God's justice number seven how can I stop judging the despising those people now Romans 14

[00:27:03] you know you feel so I'm a judge by nature that's just kind of how that's one of my besetting sins

[00:27:09] and it's not hard for me to know that I am judging somebody it's much more difficult to

[00:27:15] understand how to escape from that judging uh and I think Paul gives us some really good counsel

[00:27:20] in Romans chapter 14 to to recognize that sometimes the people you disagree with who just like are

[00:27:26] actually themselves acting in faith we're often told to um assume the best about our opponents

[00:27:34] and that's mildly helpful you can assume the best in a way that's naive and essentially or assume

[00:27:40] something false I think what Paul encourages to do is understand how their Christian faith

[00:27:46] is motivating opinions and actions that are contrary to your own um and to try to see where faith

[00:27:52] is motivated them sometimes you'll follow that path down and realize oh it is really as bad as I

[00:27:58] thought it was in which case at least you're not naively hoping something's not true but very

[00:28:03] often you discover okay there's actually different ways the Christians can respond and I can

[00:28:08] I can probably more easily escape my judging thoughts of you once I see the way that your Christian

[00:28:13] faith motivates what you're doing and the last truth is also in Romans 14 how can I love people

[00:28:20] when they're wrong you know differences in church are not just about cultural difference

[00:28:27] or difference in where you grew up or economics sometimes it's about conscience and one thing I

[00:28:34] notice is I read through those chapters of Romans as Paul starts with differences of culture and

[00:28:39] preference and moves to differences of conviction because I think that's where the reverber meets the

[00:28:44] road and that's where it's really hard and the truth there is we will answer to God that sometimes

[00:28:51] I need to recognize that um the day of judgment that's coming is is an important one for me to keep

[00:28:57] my eyes on both and remembering that God's going to judge this other person I don't necessarily have

[00:29:02] to set all those differences but also the God's going to judge me and very often at least in the

[00:29:07] situation Paul's talking about Romans 12 whether I love that person seems to matter more in God's

[00:29:13] economy than whether we get to the right answer and yeah that obviously can can be misused and abused

[00:29:19] but in many cases that's that's the perspective I need to have a mind

[00:29:23] that's good so of those eight truths is there one of them that has been most meaningful or helpful

[00:29:29] for you and your life personally yeah to some extent all of them at different points in time

[00:29:35] which is how they made it into the book I think that the um Paul's Paul's image of the body

[00:29:42] in his reminder that we belong to each other remembers one of another I think it's just seeing

[00:29:48] that as a promise has been very significant for me where even as a pastor I kind of roll my

[00:29:55] eyes and wish that so and so I didn't have to deal with their problems I think just that reminder

[00:30:01] that we do belong to each other has been an important it's not just that I should love them it's

[00:30:07] that I owe them my love and that um that God is disowned until I owe them my love that would be one

[00:30:14] I think another one's maybe helpful for me is just um that that that connection of forgiveness to

[00:30:21] God's justice that sometimes I think my my definition of forgiveness has been impoverished

[00:30:28] because I haven't fully grappled with the injustice that God's forgiveness of me entailed that

[00:30:33] you know was was paid for by Christ at the cross and so what do you think this unity that you're

[00:30:39] describing and loving the ones who drive you crazy what does it look like in practicality like

[00:30:44] what is the expectation does it look like being friends with people does it look like just being in

[00:30:50] church with one another um kind of even if even though you're not necessarily pursuing a deeper

[00:30:57] relationship what if one person wants some deeper form of friendship after hurt has taken place

[00:31:04] and the other person says look I've forgiven you I'm good with it but I'm not interested in entering

[00:31:11] into a trust-based relationship with you so what is the expectation no uh to some extent that

[00:31:19] that depends on the size of your church and the culture of your church you know if if you're

[00:31:23] I preach once at a six person church in Afghanistan they depend for their lives on each other

[00:31:29] and there's a level of trust that needs to exist between every member of the church it doesn't

[00:31:34] really matter what's happened of the past you you have to trust each other uh my church you know we

[00:31:39] have a thousand people on a Sunday which isn't particularly large but it's also the kind of church

[00:31:43] where you really can get lost if you want to it's gonna look different I think the expectation is

[00:31:49] less an absolute and more a relative terms that the expectation is that I will persevere in love

[00:31:56] more than I would based on what's in my own interest if the other person's not interested and if

[00:32:02] you know the same friendship we have before well I can pray about that there's not there's

[00:32:07] my responsibility stops there I should be more open than I want to based on my own self-interest alone

[00:32:15] I should be open to a renewed friendship more than I want to based on my strength alone

[00:32:23] and so I think what Paul's teacher Romans does is it pushes us a little further

[00:32:28] recognizing the reality that we live in a fallen world and we don't want to be overly

[00:32:32] perfectionistic and how we think about the local church uh-huh yeah how does that fit in with

[00:32:37] the idea of like okay where does friendship fit in with the idea of a Christ alone church no

[00:32:44] well friendships are a significant piece of every church and in a Christ alone church I recognize

[00:32:51] that friendship is often going to be built on Christ alone and again I should see that as a

[00:32:58] wonderful invitation right so I have friendships in my church where so my son and I do trathlons

[00:33:06] together and there's a few other trathlates in the church it's so when we get together we talk about

[00:33:11] Jesus because we're Christians but we talk about you know bikes and races and our shared interest

[00:33:18] in this sport that my son has now dragged me into and that's great right that's an easy friendship

[00:33:26] um and you know it's fine I have other friendships where I actually shared nothing in comma with

[00:33:33] that person we're from different cultures we think differently about lots of different things

[00:33:37] we may come from very different ends of the socio-economic spectrum but we've built a friendship

[00:33:43] because we're both Christians in that friendship what else can we talk about other than Jesus

[00:33:48] those are special those are deep friendships those are friendships that are not likely going to

[00:33:55] be diminished over time simply because our interest happens to go in different directions and so I

[00:34:01] tell people my church you know the people with whom you share nothing in common other than Christ

[00:34:05] may come up counteratively have the potential to be your closest friends in this church

[00:34:09] and your deeper friendships because Jesus is such a much much better foundation for friendship uh

[00:34:16] then you know whatever interests you might have that you would share naturally yeah one of the things

[00:34:22] you pointed out is that in Romans 15 it talks about like the first century churches in Rome

[00:34:28] and you you talked about how they actually brought more glory to God through their unity in Christ

[00:34:33] amidst their disagreement then compared to if they had had everything in in in agreement in the

[00:34:40] first place um yeah because you expound on that for a moment and maybe talk about how that applies

[00:34:45] to us today yeah so Romans 14 talks about all these differences of conscience over different

[00:34:52] issues of the Jews and Gentiles in these Roman churches would have had and I just I just am so

[00:34:57] struck by the way he sums up that section Romans 15 he says may the god of endurance and encouragement

[00:35:04] grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord with Christ Jesus that together you

[00:35:12] may with one voice glorify the god and father of our Lord Jesus Christ therefore welcome one

[00:35:17] another as Christ is welcomed you for the glory of God so when these Jewish and Gentile Christians

[00:35:24] determined that being in accord with Christ Jesus was all that was necessary to live in harmony with

[00:35:30] one another in such harmony the harmony Paul has been talking about for three chapters

[00:35:35] then that singular voice glorifies the god and father of our Lord Jesus Christ in a particularly

[00:35:41] powerful way you know so I have a church full of people in politics you think about politics is two

[00:35:51] colors we think about politics is like 18 and a half right I could describe some beautiful

[00:35:58] friendships my church with people who have worked for you know grave political opponents but they

[00:36:06] have this oneness in Christ that matters much more to them than what they do during their day job

[00:36:13] I think that God is honored in a in a political city he is particularly honored by that kind of unity

[00:36:20] in Christ that goes beyond those political differences and in the first century Roman churches or

[00:36:26] the church of nephysis you mentioned earlier same thing that the they were well familiar with the

[00:36:32] divide between Jew and Gentile but when Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians said you know what

[00:36:36] our unity in Christ is actually a lot more valuable to us than these cultural and political and social

[00:36:42] differences that we have I think that glorifies God radically in a way that if they were all in the

[00:36:49] same page to begin with then it was a much more peaceful and easy church it wouldn't have tested

[00:36:54] the power of the gospel in the same way you know in your chapter on the insistence on unity that's

[00:37:01] that first chapter once you get into your eight points um you mentioned the question of like what

[00:37:08] is the purpose of a local church um you talk about like utilitarian views on the church as opposed

[00:37:14] to the priority of beautiful reflection could you explain what you mean by that yeah kind of gets

[00:37:21] back to the consumerism of the church um if I view church as a consumer basically what's in it for me

[00:37:30] I can have very little patience for things about church that are difficult

[00:37:34] let's get one better than that so now I'm thinking okay churches isn't just about me churches

[00:37:40] about doing stuff right churches about missions and evangelism and church planting and all these

[00:37:45] different things related to the great commission well far better the consumerist of church and yet

[00:37:52] I still have very little patience for disagreement and differences because we could accomplish

[00:37:57] so much more for the great commission if we just homogenized everybody believed everything we

[00:38:03] had no disagreements and you know we're off to the races and so I think that that mentality just

[00:38:10] doesn't explain the New Testament's focus on unity amidst great difference in the church

[00:38:17] and so I need to dig a little deeper okay so obviously missions and evangelism church

[00:38:21] plant is really important there must be something even more important that God has in mind

[00:38:25] and that's when I begin to rest okay in in the Bible from Genesis all the way to Revelation

[00:38:32] God is about creating a people for himself who will show off who he is we get to do that in part

[00:38:39] through missions and evangelism and other things but it's not like God is incapable of doing those

[00:38:43] things for yourself he uses us because by using us we show off how great a God he is and I realize

[00:38:50] okay if I evaluate success for the church not primarily in terms of how much it accomplishes which

[00:38:55] is what I call utilitarian but in terms of how much we show about who God is oh now this unity amidst

[00:39:03] difference makes a lot of sense now I can value it and I understand why it exists and so when

[00:39:09] we're going through a really hard time as a church when Frank were not accomplishing that much

[00:39:14] but our faith is really on display now I can appreciate what God is doing in those times

[00:39:20] hmm that's good final question for you what do we lose if we don't do this like in other words

[00:39:26] what's its stake if we don't love those who drive us crazy but avoid them or just go to churches where

[00:39:33] they won't be found yeah glory to God enjoy for us so we just talked about the way that love in the

[00:39:39] ones drive your crazy is a particularly powerful way that we honor God Jesus said love your enemies

[00:39:46] if you love those who love you what reward will you get that's true outside the church is very

[00:39:50] true inside the church if you love those who love you if you love where it's easy easy love

[00:39:55] really shows off gospel power God is not as honored because the gospel in your life is not as proven out

[00:40:02] as it is when you love your enemies even at church and I think for us we miss out on joy

[00:40:09] we end up with friendships that are very similar to what the world has which is great God you know

[00:40:14] praise God for common grace even non-Christians can have good friendships but we miss out on what

[00:40:19] it looks like to build a friendship where it's really all about Jesus because I said earlier Jesus

[00:40:24] is a far better foundation for friendship than anything else that might draw us together

[00:40:30] that's really good thanks Jamie and where can people find out more about you or follow your writings

[00:40:36] or things online yeah you know every time I do an interview they ask that question I have a

[00:40:41] very disappointed answer I'm very old-fashioned I'm not on social media I don't have a website

[00:40:46] and I have a blog I've written a few books you can find me on Amazon the best way is to you know

[00:40:51] visit Washington DC come to my church experience the congregation I fell in love with but that's

[00:40:56] most certainly the best way to get to know me sounds good thanks so much Jamie

[00:41:03] thanks for listening to this episode of Theology for the People new episodes are released every Wednesday

[00:41:08] so make sure to subscribe to the podcast on whatever app you use in the next episode I'll be

[00:41:13] speaking with Shane England from Ennis Ireland Shane is a recurring guest on the podcast and he

[00:41:19] is excellent when it comes to the topic of historical theology on this episode we'll be talking

[00:41:25] about Erasmus of Rotterdam and his influence on the Reformation as well as the Humanist movement

[00:41:30] and whether or not Erasmus should be considered a reformer theology for the people is a listener

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