Pastor Avant Ramsey (1953-2023) was a special gift and blessing to our church. He is already GREATLY missed! Back in 2020, I sat down with Avant to discuss the racial tensions, which at the time were increasing, but for our brother Avant was something he lived with his entire life. Listen in and allow our brother to encourage you.
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Calvary Church, presents lead to serve a leadership, podcast with
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Ed Taylor. Welcome to a special edition of
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the lead to serve podcast, actually the beginning of a few
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special editions. My name is Ed Taylor and I have
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the privilege of pastoring here at Calvary Church in Aurora,
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Colorado. I also hosts a daily live
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call-in show on radio stations across the country where we
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talked about life, as it relates to God's will for our lives with
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all the racial tensions around us.
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I've invited personal friends to join me on my radio show to have
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real raw discussions on racism and how the Gospel of Jesus
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Christ applies. We vetted him down for this
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podcast and will be airing them successively here in the coming
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days. I hope the Lord helps you to
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lead even more effectively in this time of deep deep pain
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sorrow and difficulty as you look to him, I know he will.
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Let's jump in to today's podcast.
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Good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's edition of
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Calvary live. My name is Ed Taylor, taking
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your calls and your questions today. 30 3690 3000, 30 3690
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3000 is the number will be taking your calls and your
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questions today. It's been a very eventful.
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Three, four months. It's been a very eventful, three
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or four weeks and we want to open up the dialogue and the
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opportunities for us to come together and be a part of what
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God is doing and how he is operating in our culture, how
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he's operating in our lives. And so we are glad that you have
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come to join us on. The radio, and we're going to
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have a special guest in studio here in just a few moments.
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As we continue our conversation, surrounding the racial tensions
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that are going on. Yeah, you're right.
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We have been dedicating some programs to this topic and
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they're very important. They're very important to to
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frame within the context of our understanding of the scriptures
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and our responsibility as Believers in the The world that
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we have and so give me a call 3036, 90 3000.
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Kevin, could you come and help him?
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30 3690 3000 is the number. We have a special guest.
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So what we're going to get them all set up first as our producer
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comes in and fixes all of the all of his wires, make sure he's
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all good to go. So today's guest is A pastor on
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our team here is name is a vent Ramsey and Avon we're going to
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have you talk right up into the microphone about this close so
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you can move it close to you, no problem and a vent.
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I've got a some information on a van that we have a van is
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married to Barbara for how many years event. 38, 38 years, and
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he has two kids event. And Michael, it says you began
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attending in 2008. But I have a feeling it's
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earlier than that, because we weren't in the school in 2008.
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So I'm thinking we left the school in 2006.
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And you were there before we left the school.
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Yes, I was. So you've been with us for a
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while? 14, 15 years.
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You've been on our team since 2007. 18, you you how many years
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did you devote to UPS 30 years? I never asked you, this just to
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start out on something lighter. Have you ever estimated all the
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years? You served at UPS how many
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packages that you possibly may be delivered.
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There was a time. I believed that statistic was
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given to us and well over a million package and that would
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be you individually. Yes.
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A million packages. And so, very faithful in driving
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around on Town, even though I'll event could could say he grew.
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Although a vent could say he grew up in the church, he would
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also add that, he knew of Jesus, but didn't have a personal
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relationship with Christ of any kind, so, it hung out with
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Believers. He hung out with those, that
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didn't believe, but he remembers coming home from a basketball
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game, a Christian league and felt the weariness of running
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from the Lord. And he knew many of his friends
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have been praying for him and a vat.
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Remembers looking into the rearview mirror of his car,
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noticing his eyes, and he began to plead with God to change him
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and he had to stop running from the Lord and God answered his
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cry. Wow.
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I'm think we got that off the website and how powerful it is.
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Powerful, it brings back memories, doesn't it?
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And so with all that in mind, welcome to the program event.
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Thank you sir. I'm grateful that you.
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Had joined me. And with all that's been going
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on in the last couple weeks with the racial tension, the riots,
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the concerns. I always want to start out by
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asking, how are you doing personally?
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Well, let's go back to our. Let's go back to our staff
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meeting today and we begin to book The third option and Pastor
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Keegan begin the discussion for the first two chapters and I
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didn't make a comment at all, as a matter of fact, I admitted to
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the staff in its entirety. That I had just couldn't
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contribute because of the heaviness on my heart of what
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has been happening in our country, in our city.
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And, and in my heart, I was noticing, I was sitting on the
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other side of the room, you were closer to the Whiteboard.
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I was on the other side of the room.
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And for some reason, your we're all facing each other but the
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table that you and Kevin said in were facing us you know somehow
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facing. I don't know how they set that
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up, but I could, I had a straight shot, you know,
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whiteboard and then your right to the left of where Keegan was
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and and I could tell something was was going on and I didn't
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want to guess I wouldn't have known what it was but what what
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happened? What happened this morning was
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that we we began as a staff to go through a book study
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together. We were going through the book
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on being a servant of God. Most of our discipleship is a
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staff is how to be better servants, how to how to be
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better. Christian servants, staff
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members just learning how to serve and we were right in the
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middle of that book. All this went down and I was Has
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reminded of Pastor miles McPherson.
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A video actually a teaching at a conference couple years ago.
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Our yeah, maybe two years ago I brought that video back then.
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I brought that book. I think it was last year,
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brought that book back. It became a book of the month,
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but we never went through it. We never studied it.
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There was no, I don't think anyone really, I know I didn't
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have an urgency, I don't remember an urgency on our team
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and, you know, became a book of the month.
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It's in the bookstore. We encouraged it.
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I read half of it back then I didn't finish it.
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I felt it was an important word. I had never heard it frame that
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way, even his introductory remarks, it was great.
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And then all this went down and then urgency struck in my heart
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and a need to not only reintroduce, it to our radio
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audience reintroduce, it to our church, but like we stopped
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everything, watch the video last week and then assigned the book
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and the first First three chapters of the book were
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challenging. Yes, it was.
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They were challenging very challenging and, you know, I
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just listening to the comment and keep in mind that our staff
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is pretty diverse but we come from different parts of the
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country and we were raised differently and I might myself
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grew up in Chicago. My dad passed away, early my
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mother raised. Five children we go.
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Up in what is considered the bricks the projects and we were
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raised to do right? We were raised by a mother that
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was Christian and she wouldn't take she wouldn't she wouldn't
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put up with any mess and so she was my disciplinarian and she
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taught me to respect all people and so I doing a discussion I
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just kind of went back and remember At her and just two
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people who were in my life, that just kept me on, on this road.
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Keep in mind that I saw the riots in the 60s, as a little
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boy, when MLK and Kennedy were assassinated and as a result and
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growing up to be a man and a father right now.
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And a retired person I never thought that we would have to
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visit anything. Regarding race right now.
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I always thought that things would get better and better, but
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now in 2020, we find ourselves with a reed discussion and
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reviewing what happened, 25 30, 40 years ago.
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So this morning is we're going through your, you obviously,
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read ahead you're prepared for our time where you were, you
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were you nervous knowing that we were going to go over these
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chapters? Did you anticipate was there a
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nervousness about Out today or did.
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Was it spontaneous where you just like, you don't want, I
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don't what? Tell me how you felt.
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Like, I don't think I know you. So, I don't think I'm not, I
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don't want to put words in your thought, in your mouth.
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That says, I didn't want to participate, because I know that
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you do want to participate and you did participate, but at the
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end, you gave us a summary, and then you shared exhortation and
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encouragement with us. But during that time, like, did
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you come nervous? Did you come concern?
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You saw the questions that were Sent out by Keegan.
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Yes. How did you prepare to come to
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know that? You're going to be in a room
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predominantly of non-black people?
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I mean, there's there's four right know?
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There's there's three in the room Keegan LED Morgan.
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You, I'll take you into in, in person.
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If we broaden it to ya. Personal color, non-white,
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there's Hispanics in there. There's Mexican like so.
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So how did you anticipate? Did you have any anticipation of
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walking into to think? Got it?
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I didn't think about it. I had a very good time of prayer
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and and devotion of this morning and I usually take off for a
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ride on my bike before I come to staff meetings on Wednesday but
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for some reason, I was compelled to just stay and complete my
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time of devotions and prayer. And so when I walked into, The
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room with everyone else. I felt great until we started
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discussing the subject at hand chapters 1 and 2.
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And kicking did a great job II just felt torn because I felt
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that there were people among the staff that were interesting.
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They were interested in the topic but I felt that They
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didn't really know my heart and I wondered if they knew Keegan's
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hard and him explaining about his mom being white, is that
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being black and me been in an interracial relationship and
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raising two sons from a mom who was writing me being
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African-American. I wanted my brothers and sisters
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in the room to come into my life.
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And I was a little leery that the topics in I'm to be just
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frosting on the cake. That makes sense.
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Tell me what frosting on the cake means like, light out.
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Like we didn't go deep. Well, some did some people.
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Some people went deep. Yeah.
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But it seemed like that. People were afraid to ask
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questions and so my my encouragement was is to in order
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to get to the problem. That alcohol sin.
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Yeah, such as what is happening right now, you need to know my
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heart and I need to know your heart and there's going to be
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some tea. Yes, because there's Pain still,
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from hundreds of years, of lack of reconciliation Solomon.
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I'm, I want to have a couple of things on my mind, I want to
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talk with you about, but I want to stick on this because this
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idea that their pain, still of hundreds of years of racism.
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You're not 100 years old, right? So you didn't experience it in
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the hundreds of years. So I've been receiving.
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A few emails that say or even people tell me personally, that
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there is no such thing as systemic racism.
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There is no such thing as why would we could be concerned
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about 100 years ago? And that's what, that's what,
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triggered it. Because somebody actually, you
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know, this idea of hundreds of years of racism doesn't exist,
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and that's what they say and, and, you know it it frustrates
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me but it has In emotional response, you have an emotional
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response because you you associate the pain, not of
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hundreds of years but your own personal pain.
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You was that a statement that you were sharing that this, this
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is your own personal pain in the room, the context was in the
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room this morning. Yes.
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And and so speak to that. Like so somebody's, we're not
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going to take that call but it says somebody wanted to call and
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say, I don't believe there's there's hundreds of years of
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racism. What, how would you respond?
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And in the context of your life. I I thought of a story when I
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was in college and I was very militant.
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And called myself a Christian. I learned.
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I'm not going to say that. I hate it, white people, but I
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never knew it was only a few people that have reached out to
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me in my life. So if my my world was completely
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dark skin that people, but I remember trying to pry into the
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history of my grandmother, who's gone on to be with the Lord
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who's a Christian lady. And she would never share any
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stories with me. But one day finally, she sailed
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a story with me that I'm, she was in the state of Mississippi
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and they were children early 1900s and they were, they were
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sharecroppers at that time and there were four or five kids out
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in the yards and they were playing and the man who who
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owned the land was in the vicinity.
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And then another man came up. Suddenly two of the kids that
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have been planned were taken away.
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And that's when she told me that those two kids who were
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relatives or hers were sold and so I she warned me not to get
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angry because God forgave that and that was the beginning of
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see being planted in my heart. But that goes back into Like the
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1900s. Yes.
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And it gets it just continues. You know, when Bobby and I moved
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here as a young couple, I remember a gentleman, there's
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just kind of took us under his wing and he seen us as
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interracial couple young interracial couple.
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He shared that he and his wife had been together as well.
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Interracial, couple back in the Midwest, and it got to a point
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that he was harassed, so much that he carried his marriage.
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License in the car with his driver's license to prove that
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this was his wife. And so he, he was just preparing
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me of the type of relationship that I may have.
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It never turned out to be like that.
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And just by God's grace, he always sheltered us from
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anything like that, right there. Yeah, well, I've always
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appreciated you through the years, where when you do, when
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you do give Insight on something, whatever the topic
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is, you're a storyteller. Our and I don't mean fictional,
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I mean you have a real story to identify how you explain what
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you're feeling, what you're going through at the time.
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And and I had mentioned, you know, very carefully.
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Try to put my words in writing so that I could be careful of
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what I said. But I made this comment
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regarding racism and I said, foremost, racism is not just a
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term for them and it's not just a political construct, its pain.
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It's the looks that they've received.
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It's Ben, how they've treated it, opens up Old Wounds and
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fears and real-life stings. And now learning from you today,
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I could also write to that and then a generational actions that
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have happened throughout the generations, when you speak of
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your grandmother or your great-grandmother.
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Like this is an abstract, you're not reading from a and as
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cyclopedia or Google, this is your family.
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This is your bloodline that is carried to what you, you you.
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Hear that story is if we were all there with you and none of
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us were there we get it? Firsthand.
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Yes. Can I share a story from the
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first time? We had a real meaningful talk in
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the school because I've learned a lot from, from a vent.
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I mean, I think that God brings people into your life that you
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can learn from that you can grow from.
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And when I moved here from California, you know, I think
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it's important in the, in the line of these conversations to
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that. I haven't mentioned this yet,
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but before I was Was born again. I was extremely racist, toward
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anybody, except me. And there was no real reason for
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that, my parents weren't like that.
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I wasn't raised that way. I don't know how to pin it.
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Except that this sense of superiority or this sense of
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just like wanting to be a notch above people and it didn't
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matter. And what what people group it
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was I'm a day. I made a conscious decision
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throughout my whole life just to think I was better than people,
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which is like, you had mentioned this morning.
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It's like Pride, there's this essence of Pride, and I grew up
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in a predominantly Hispanic Community, Mexican all around.
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And, and the irony of that is that God would allow me to fall
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in love with a Mexican girl to have children with her end up
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being married to her and being born again.
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So that If God would show me from the inside out, the value
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of a human soul and and and be able to Value people for who
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they are. So I come to Colorado, I don't
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know how to sew. I'm a rookie as a pastor.
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Don't know anything about pastoring.
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And and don't really, I didn't come to Colorado.
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Intending to plant, a white church, black church and Mexican
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church. Any kind of race, I didn't have
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that on my mind at all. I just wanted to come and
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hopefully people would come and here.
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Me, teach a Bible study and I didn't have that in the radar,
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but God brought us to Aurora and Aurora is a town, very similar,
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where I grew up very diverse, it's much more diverse.
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Now 20 years ago than 15 when I first moved here and it reminded
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me a lot of home. It was a bigger city, a lot of
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different languages and looks it was it was great but I didn't
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have still, I didn't have any of that on my mind and then then
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you came through. You came to visit at the school
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and I don't and I don't remember exactly how we ended up talking,
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but I do remember talking to you.
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And I remember this story, like it was yesterday and you had
00:21:23
described to me how you were thinking about, not coming back,
00:21:27
you don't want to come back to the church.
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And and I said why? Because in my mind, they're only
00:21:32
a couple reasons. One its, a dirty school and who
00:21:36
wants to come and sit on these chairs, the music, maybe that
00:21:40
was too low. Loud because we the room, maybe
00:21:43
the teaching. But that's about it.
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That was my, my threshold at that time, like, well, if you
00:21:50
don't want to come back to the church, you don't like to teach,
00:21:52
you know, like the music. You don't like the room.
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I don't, I can't think of him really anything else.
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And and you offered something to me, that I'd never heard before
00:22:00
and you said something along these lines, and you can correct
00:22:02
me if I'm wrong. But you said something along
00:22:05
these lines, Pastor, Ed, I walked in, I looked around, I
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didn't see anybody. Like me.
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And I decided that this is probably not the church for me
00:22:15
and I asked you, what does that mean?
00:22:18
And he said, I looked around and I didn't see any black people in
00:22:22
this room and that was something that was a Brand New Concept to
00:22:27
me. And then I asked you a, why is
00:22:29
that important to you? So I want to ask you that for
00:22:31
people listening in you coming into a room and assessing that
00:22:35
room. You're a Believer.
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You love. Jesus Christ.
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You didn't come with your wife. It was just you and And, and so,
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you were looking around and assessing the group and and I
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didn't view it as judgmental. At all, you were looking for a
00:22:48
place for home, you heard me on the radio, heard the teaching on
00:22:51
the radio and now you're coming to see well, I don't know,
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doesn't sound like the radio, but can you help people
00:22:58
understand what it was like? And what it is like for someone
00:23:01
to walk in and assess the room and see that?
00:23:04
Yeah, back in the day, back in the days of the school, I had
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belong to a diverse church that I was very comfortable.
00:23:10
When I Serving but mullet things that brought me to Calvary
00:23:13
Church Cavalry at the time was passed away, its teaching, and I
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just fell in love with expository teaching verse by
00:23:22
verse and it was a place that I needed to be.
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I was apprehensive about Fellowship in the in a
00:23:29
congregation that was majority II.
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Hate to use the term white. It was majority Anglo I did not
00:23:41
feel comfortable and and although there were people who
00:23:45
greeted me, I just didn't feel in my heart that I was welcome
00:23:51
unless it was one-on-one such as wood.
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Pastor Ed or Ron Rempel, right? Just some of the guys that we
00:23:58
that I met. When I first got here that
00:24:00
reached out to me, and I had to fight against that right there,
00:24:05
because if I was a Believer, right?
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And I stood by the And to love my brothers.
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All right, who I see every day, if I'm going to, if I'm going to
00:24:19
say that and said, I love God, who have never seen and hate my
00:24:23
brothers, who I'm with, then something was wrong with my
00:24:27
heart. And so, I needed to have at hard
00:24:30
change as well. And so, as you were, when you
00:24:34
before you met anyone before they had the greeting, what was
00:24:38
it? Why was, why would it be
00:24:39
important for you from walking in that other black people would
00:24:43
be in the church? Why would it be?
00:24:44
Why was it, why? Is it important?
00:24:47
I mean, it's still important. Yes, you're still important
00:24:50
because I believe that God's house should be the first.
00:24:54
Yeah, it's true. And we've heard it before.
00:24:58
I've heard it from Pastor that I've heard from Pastor, Al
00:25:02
Pittman that the most segregated always Sunday and that was
00:25:06
something that growing up and even being a part of Calvary
00:25:11
Church that has always been on my heart that this church would
00:25:15
be a church. Church for all people.
00:25:17
And I still feel like that today.
00:25:18
Yes. And and so looking around was
00:25:21
there was Their Fear was their apprehension that I'd be
00:25:26
accepted judge because I have a white, my have a white wife,
00:25:31
it's interracial marriage where any of those things on your mind
00:25:34
or is those afterthoughts? I have two dogs.
00:25:36
Yeah, after dogs, I had I had lived in Montana, play,
00:25:43
basketball, and Montana, and, you know, just running away from
00:25:49
The dangers of the city had a scholarship to play ball.
00:25:52
So I was used to being in an environment.
00:25:54
But after leaving their, I didn't want to be an environment
00:25:58
such as that anymore. I just wanted to be in a healthy
00:26:01
environment and when I went to church, I wanted to be in a
00:26:05
healthy spiritual Sanctuary where there was all people and
00:26:10
mind you that when I would come into settings like that, you
00:26:16
could feel the eyes that would Would settle on you.
00:26:21
That wasn't Eyes Of Love if I could say that.
00:26:23
Yeah. And you I don't know that I've
00:26:27
ever recognized that in my if in somebody doing that toward me
00:26:32
but you feel that. Oh yeah you can feel that.
00:26:34
Yeah. Have you ever have the Lord ever
00:26:36
LED? You to have a conversation with
00:26:38
with someone that might you might have made eye contact with
00:26:41
and there or or do you just let that go?
00:26:44
I learned to let it go. How does that affect you?
00:26:48
Like the so I expected that answer from you and knowing your
00:26:52
personality, you're going to take it to the Lord, you're
00:26:54
going to pray, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
00:26:56
Like how does it? How does that affect you?
00:27:00
It affected me this morning. You know, that was part of what
00:27:04
we're talking about years ago that came out.
00:27:07
Yeah. Today it's kind of snuck up on
00:27:11
me and appeared out of nowhere and here I am with my my
00:27:16
brothers and sisters in Christ in the room and all of a sudden.
00:27:19
I revisit that that time. And in here, here's a van again,
00:27:24
discussing something that that was painful, that was hurtful
00:27:29
something that in the beginning, when I talked about my
00:27:33
grandmother and yes, all of that, which I thought would be
00:27:37
over and that be a time of healing.
00:27:40
The wound was still open. Did we're going to come up on
00:27:43
our first break? That's how fast this show goes.
00:27:46
And so with before we get to the break though, I think Do you do
00:27:51
you think we should be talking about these things?
00:27:55
I certainly do, I certainly do it because it needs to be
00:28:00
brought out in the open and keep in mind guys, it's from a
00:28:05
Christian perspective, but I believe that We should be
00:28:10
leaders and seeking healing for what is happening right now.
00:28:14
So I'm sorry. I walk into that room today and
00:28:17
I say, okay? And we'll wait till the second
00:28:19
half to two to go over question, and number two, the Keegan gave
00:28:23
us today. Wow, but I go walk into the room
00:28:26
today thinking. I've got a lot to learn and I'm
00:28:29
ready. I'm ready to listen.
00:28:30
I'm ready to hear and I think you walk into but you have
00:28:34
something else you like like I don't know that I would have
00:28:37
anticipated that this. This that this morning would
00:28:39
hope I saw this morning as a leader and asking all of us to
00:28:45
cooperate in all of us to go through this.
00:28:47
And all the on come, I anticipated a very positive.
00:28:50
I did not in any way. Think that it would open Old
00:28:53
Wounds for people. It didn't cross my mind at all.
00:28:56
So that's something we're going to talk about that because you
00:29:00
hear the music, we're coming up on our only break in studios
00:29:05
Pastor. Ay vant Ramsey, he is a part of
00:29:08
Of the team here we are talking racial tensions and we are
00:29:12
learning together and I'm glad that you joined us.
00:29:14
We'll be right back on Calvary life.
00:29:21
Hey, welcome back to the second half of today's program.
00:29:24
It is Calvary live. My name is Ed Taylor.
00:29:26
If you have any questions for us, you've been with us.
00:29:29
I invite you to give us a call. We are taking questions and, and
00:29:33
what we're not doing. We're not going to take
00:29:34
questions to argue or we're not taking those sky.
00:29:37
But if you have a real genuine question for our guest today,
00:29:40
Pastor event Ramsey, I want you to call us at 30 3690 3000, you
00:29:46
know, we kind of get caught up in The in the conversation and
00:29:50
the time goes by and and we met you know we get caught up in
00:29:54
everything that we're talking about but when if you have a
00:30:00
question we would love to hear it.
00:30:04
I'm gonna I have a quick texting question.
00:30:08
Maybe I missed it in the intro but can you give a definition of
00:30:12
systemic racism? Yeah, I would, I would say and
00:30:15
not a non-professional. A definition that systemic
00:30:20
racism is a pattern of racism over time, that becomes
00:30:26
repetitive and obvious. And so, that's a general.
00:30:32
Have you ever thought Avon? I know, it's kind of a on the
00:30:35
spot question, but have you ever thought of when you hear the
00:30:38
phrase systemic racism, what it means to you.
00:30:41
I know to be honest with, you know I because it because racism
00:30:48
is enough for you. Yeah you don't need the worst.
00:30:49
Systemic would that be fair to say?
00:30:52
I don't I don't it's like you know how things happen like like
00:30:58
c19, you know, it's just a new phrase of something that is
00:31:03
another tool of the enemy. Yeah.
00:31:05
Division. And yeah and subjugation but I
00:31:09
think that there are other definitions that We could get
00:31:11
caught up in the in the political sociological view of
00:31:15
it. But the reality is that over
00:31:17
time a program programmatic system, you know, a repetitive
00:31:24
action of racism would be how I would Define it and you know we
00:31:30
with social media and everything you can talk about these things.
00:31:33
Even on radio could talk about these things but over the last
00:31:37
few weeks, I've literally been in the room with Or on the phone
00:31:42
with men that experience a regular ongoing racism in their
00:31:51
life because of the color of their skin and that what
00:31:55
weather, whatever kind of debates and you'd be interested
00:31:57
in all the emails. I've been getting, but whatever
00:32:00
you want to debate you. It's impossible to sit across
00:32:03
the table from someone and say that.
00:32:07
No, you have an experience that it's like, how could you
00:32:10
possibly Do that and I think that's the important thing for
00:32:14
us and eight. Pastor Avon already is mentioned
00:32:16
it. Like we've got a weird the
00:32:17
Church of Jesus Christ. We've got to take this from a
00:32:20
Biblical spiritual approach and Keegan this morning shared out
00:32:26
of First Corinthians 9 from the New Living Translation.
00:32:29
We usually memorized it from the new King James where we you know
00:32:34
Paul says I become all things to all men that I might win some
00:32:38
but when you read it from the New Living Translation, It I
00:32:42
thought man. They absolutely nailed this one.
00:32:47
When they say let me get to it here.
00:32:51
Its first Corinthians 9, none of these things.
00:32:55
And let me get here, I'm still in the new King James that's why
00:32:59
I can't find it. Let me click the ER I'm sorry be
00:33:02
patient with me. He says when I am its first
00:33:08
Corinthians 9 22, when I am with those who Our week, I share
00:33:12
their weakness for, I want to bring the week to Christ and
00:33:17
yes, I try to find common ground with everyone doing everything.
00:33:23
I can to save some. I do everything to spread the
00:33:26
good news and share its blessings.
00:33:29
I like that phrase. I try to find common ground with
00:33:32
everyone and I would imagine that.
00:33:35
It's even more painful for someone that has experienced
00:33:39
racism to have it dismissed. And just as if, you know what
00:33:44
I've experienced it to, you know, that's a big response I've
00:33:47
experienced it too. Well, then that would make you
00:33:50
even more careful to step into another person's shoes if you've
00:33:55
experienced it too, in a different category, a different,
00:33:58
you know, I've, I've been discriminated against to well
00:34:01
that if that's truly, if that's accurate, then that would make
00:34:06
you even more equipped to step into a Vance life to step in
00:34:11
John's life to step into someone's life that experienced
00:34:14
regular ongoing different treatment partiality.
00:34:19
As we, we talked a lot of passages of scripture this
00:34:22
morning showing preference partiality, giving preference to
00:34:25
the rich into the poor. Giving preference to some people
00:34:30
while treating other people poorly.
00:34:34
And so let's go back a vamp. Yes, let's go back to this
00:34:38
morning. Your I'm in this Were in the
00:34:41
conversation so it's just me and you.
00:34:43
Yes, I'm walking in and and I'm like, okay, this is going to be
00:34:46
different. We haven't done anything like
00:34:48
this before. We haven't tackled a topic like
00:34:53
racism before and then allowed another author to walk us
00:34:56
through. So I'm anticipating I'm, I've
00:34:59
read the, I've read those chapters, I'm ready, I've looked
00:35:02
at the questions and I'm walking in pretty eager.
00:35:05
I'm pretty eager to see and then and then how we set it up where
00:35:08
I'm not the one doing this. As I playing all the pastor's
00:35:10
were all doing it together. Yes.
00:35:12
And so I'm just, I'm encouraged. This is a new.
00:35:15
This is a first for us. Twenty years as a church.
00:35:17
We're tackling this, we're going to step into it.
00:35:19
We're going to learn and I'm eager to learn.
00:35:21
You had great DeVos, everything was well, you walked in, and you
00:35:26
walked in a positive, ready in your own shoes, in your own
00:35:31
skin, you're ready and then something happened.
00:35:34
Do you remember, what, what the tide turned that?
00:35:38
I don't even wear, you discouraged.
00:35:40
Like what? And I think, I think I felt
00:35:44
discouraged. It's, I don't know.
00:35:49
I Revisiting revisiting his hard-on, right?
00:35:55
As I was talking to you during the break, I wanted to share a
00:35:59
story with you Kay. That happened last year.
00:36:02
I was at our home, I live in Denver, my wife and I and I was
00:36:08
cleaning out, cleaning a window to put an air conditioner in the
00:36:12
window. And a gentleman that was
00:36:15
delivering Community. Newspapers was walking by as I
00:36:19
was cleaning windows and and I noticed them out corner of my
00:36:23
eye, but I didn't take any, I didn't think anything of it and
00:36:27
he picked up his phone and made a phone call.
00:36:31
And, and just kind of stayed looking at me while I'm cleaning
00:36:35
the window and was talking to someone.
00:36:39
And so, I assumed that he was talking to someone about me
00:36:44
about 5 or 10 minutes later, the police stopped at my door and
00:36:49
Someone had called. The police on me for being in my
00:36:54
house because they thought it was a potential burglary that
00:36:59
had a profound effect upon my heart because I was hurt.
00:37:05
I cried it was embarrassing that I had to show my license and
00:37:11
mail to Ana police officer at my door.
00:37:15
But in that staff meeting this morning, I Revisited that
00:37:20
feeling Again and I didn't care to and that feeling is real.
00:37:26
Yeah, this is not some abstract we talked about that during the
00:37:30
break. This is not some abstract
00:37:33
thought of theory or thinking about what other people with
00:37:38
this is where you live and we're thinking how many years ago did
00:37:43
that happen last year last year? So 2019, you, you pay the
00:37:48
mortgage on that. I remember when we talked, Not
00:37:51
only do you pay the mortgage, but you had to put that boiler
00:37:54
in that wasn't cheap. Like this is your house, is your
00:37:58
neighborhood? I've been there, I've been at
00:38:00
your house. I've been in that neighborhood
00:38:02
and and you have every right to clean your window and put an air
00:38:07
conditioning in but something with.
00:38:09
And and I want I'm going to, I'm going to think he didn't come to
00:38:14
ask, you know, he didn't come to engage you.
00:38:18
He made a snap judgment based upon On your color of your skin.
00:38:22
Yes. And the fact that you were at a
00:38:24
window and got hurt. Yeah, the flip side of that.
00:38:28
Is that I had to forgive that, man.
00:38:30
Yeah, because I started out. My Flesh wanted to confront him
00:38:37
physically but my testimony until I wanted to hold
00:38:44
steadfast. Compelled me to forgive him.
00:38:50
Did he stick around to see if the cops showed up?
00:38:52
No? Okay, no.
00:38:54
But but while you were at the window, you saw him out of the
00:38:57
corner of your eye and you could see that that there was
00:39:01
something going on with them and you.
00:39:03
Yeah, you know it's like I share with you guys when I'm cautious
00:39:11
as a as a, I'm in my 60 guys and I don't feel that it's
00:39:17
necessary. To think that I'm a threat, a
00:39:20
threat walking down the street of my neighborhoods or walking
00:39:23
anywhere. And I still feel like that and
00:39:29
just being confronted at my age or or for any other man, because
00:39:36
of who he is and because of his color is something that that has
00:39:40
to be dealt with. And I believe it has to come
00:39:43
from our hearts as far as loving God.
00:39:47
That's the The only way that we're going to confront this
00:39:50
situation that we're talking about right here and are you
00:39:54
willing to accept the gospel? Yeah, I think that part of the
00:39:57
conversation this morning to was that we need to be willing to be
00:40:03
on our not. We need to be careful, not to be
00:40:06
offended because at offense, then we become defensive.
00:40:10
And then we, you know, when we, when we were offended by
00:40:13
something that's actually a fender bull, it takes us out of
00:40:15
the spirit and into the flesh. And and it goes, It goes both
00:40:21
ways on this topic, you know where we we may instead of
00:40:24
stopping and listening and engaging in conversation, we
00:40:28
come to snap judgments and we make decisions where I'm not
00:40:32
even valuing you as. And I like this phrase, like as
00:40:36
an image-bearer. Yes.
00:40:38
And and then I also like what kind of Shifting to it's it's
00:40:44
impossible for me to look at you a van and not see that your
00:40:46
block, right? So it's Not however, sometimes
00:40:50
they'll be that they'll be someone that say, you know, I'm
00:40:52
color blind and I don't see color and what is Miles
00:40:55
McPherson saying his book? He says, look when you do that,
00:40:58
then what you're saying and and although although it's probably
00:41:02
shared in such a way that's intended to be positive, but the
00:41:06
way that can be interpreted as Mi Pastor miles says, is like,
00:41:09
when you say, you don't see my color, what you're saying is,
00:41:12
you don't see me and who I am and what I carry in my in the
00:41:18
The life that I've lived in, also my Generations.
00:41:22
Yes. Also on during the break, I
00:41:24
wanted to add this because Pastor a van and I have been to
00:41:27
Israel together and we have the same.
00:41:30
We have the same guide is named Ash Raga and Ash Raga is a very
00:41:33
strong vibrant loud. If you didn't it, if you met him
00:41:40
for the first time you would say he's confident strong doesn't
00:41:44
have a fear in the world and things change.
00:41:48
JH somewhere along somewhere along the tour 10-day to, or
00:41:52
which draaga something will change.
00:41:55
When the topic comes up about, either the military or the
00:41:58
Holocaust. Yes.
00:42:00
And the Holocaust, whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up
00:42:04
in shrug has presents its own, he will turn from.
00:42:09
Its I've seen this happen, it doesn't always happen, but I
00:42:12
will see him turn from a joker. Loud, dancer, goofy to crying.
00:42:18
Tears coming out of his this grown, man.
00:42:20
He's in his 70s and tears coming by coming through and it went,
00:42:25
one of the things you shared about reminding me of that,
00:42:26
because when you felt pain, it goes back to today.
00:42:31
It went back to a story of your grandmother that goes back to
00:42:34
her child to all the way back and it reminded me of Chicago
00:42:38
when it comes to the Holocaust because he has his grandparents
00:42:41
died in the Holocaust, they both died and so immediately, he
00:42:46
doesn't think of it as a political He doesn't think of it
00:42:49
as anything that it's become, he thinks of it, you know, my I
00:42:53
lost my family there and the many others that that suffered,
00:42:56
he hurts with everyone else. And I think it's important that
00:43:00
we recognize that there's a lot of pain to go around and if we
00:43:06
just dismiss the pain then we're not going to have the
00:43:09
opportunity to be heard because that's our as as as image,
00:43:14
bearers of God and carriers are the Or and ministers of
00:43:20
reconciliation. If we are not heard, then we're
00:43:24
unable to fulfill the call of God Upon Our Lives.
00:43:27
And if if you don't trust me, then you won't listen to me.
00:43:32
And so to dismiss someone's pain to dismiss someone's feelings
00:43:37
and to replace it with some opinions, some post, or I've
00:43:42
seen a lot of people, you know, when you hear systemic racism,
00:43:45
I've seen a lot of people as well.
00:43:47
Here are the Facts. Here's the statistics.
00:43:50
Well you know I'm not I'm not in any way minimizing what
00:43:54
statistics might mean, but statistics don't always tell the
00:43:58
whole story and how many people does it take?
00:44:02
You know, so I say, well, I'll just give you the stats.
00:44:05
You think there's systemic racism event here are the facts?
00:44:08
Well, I've just lost a van, I might throw a thousand numbers
00:44:12
out of them, but I forgot that I'm talking to a van and I and
00:44:15
we can't, we can't forget that. We're talking to John.
00:44:18
A vamp bill or anyone else in our lives.
00:44:21
So that we might be heard with the gospel with the gospel.
00:44:24
So let's go to Mark here in Aurora.
00:44:27
Hey Mark, welcome to the program.
00:44:32
I wanted to say something to the white guys that are out there
00:44:37
who are thinking, you know what this is dumb, this doesn't
00:44:40
happen. And you know what, that's where
00:44:42
I was. I was in that that category
00:44:44
because in my world, I didn't see any anything like that.
00:44:50
Everything just looked normal to me until I finally had a chance.
00:44:55
I had a good friend who was black and because of a promise
00:45:00
Keepers have been about, Reconciliation, I've decided to
00:45:04
ask him, what is it like to be black?
00:45:07
He blow me away by there's a, I grew up out west, or I'm sorry
00:45:14
out east a small little farming town called Columbus, right?
00:45:19
Pasture Fields, farming, all that kind of stuff.
00:45:22
I used to ride my bike down this road into Columbus hundreds of
00:45:27
times and never had an issue. He told me that when he he rode
00:45:32
his bike down that same road. He used pulled over by the
00:45:37
police. The police would stop and ask
00:45:39
him. What are you doing?
00:45:41
And where you going? And I thought, you kidding me, I
00:45:46
have never, I have never had that happen to me all the
00:45:49
hundreds of times I've ever been down that road that has never
00:45:52
happened to me as a kid, but you're saying that happens to
00:45:56
you all the time he said. And then he shared something
00:46:00
else with me, I like to go to a car dealership when they're
00:46:05
closed because I hate getting hit by all the dealers right.
00:46:09
Right. So when the clothes I can
00:46:10
actually walk around and look at cars I've done that hundred
00:46:14
sometimes. He told me when he goes to a
00:46:18
closed car, dealership never fails please.
00:46:23
Pull up and ask him what he's doing.
00:46:25
You know what? For the first time in my entire
00:46:28
life, it hit me. Wow, this is real.
00:46:32
I have never seen it. I just want to say to the white
00:46:36
guys out there who are still questioning this.
00:46:40
Talk to your black friends, man and ask Them.
00:46:43
What it's like to be black and and I guarantee you'll be blown
00:46:47
away. Thank you, Mark for sharing
00:46:50
that. Thanks Mark, bye-bye, you know,
00:46:55
I'm glad marks that one of the things when my boys were young,
00:47:07
we would raise them to be cautious of the places that they
00:47:10
went to always have something in the pocket to never go into
00:47:15
department stores or any store without any money in their
00:47:19
pocket because they were always looked upon as someone that was
00:47:24
about to take something. And that starts with me as a
00:47:27
young boy, and my boys did are now in their 30s.
00:47:31
And and now when this evolved, when these incidents that That
00:47:37
have happened in our country evolved.
00:47:39
They were Christian men, that would call me up and would say,
00:47:43
I had to have a long conversation with my teenage
00:47:46
son. Even Pastor qian who has a
00:47:49
two-year-old was concerned about preparing the Sun for instances
00:47:57
such as what, Mark described of his of his friend who happened
00:48:01
to be black. again I almost checked out I did check out in
00:48:08
our meeting today because I Revisited that him today because
00:48:13
it shouldn't be necessary but in 2020 we were still having to
00:48:19
deal with the same issues guys and and and gyves this isn't
00:48:24
above God, but if God is in our heart, we need to be concerned
00:48:28
about that because it's hurting People.
00:48:33
It is, I want to address this really quickly, I'm glad it's a
00:48:36
text question, but considering where we are.
00:48:39
Here's something that just came in.
00:48:40
I'll read it verbatim. I've wondered why the Bible
00:48:44
doesn't seem to address the race issue.
00:48:46
And then now we have a two thousand year history of racism,
00:48:50
in the name of Christianity, the Bible, 1 million percent,
00:48:56
addresses race, and race issues and division based upon
00:49:03
ethnicities and languages and appearances and I'll just give
00:49:08
you a few examples, and I'm going to just say because you
00:49:12
put your name to it, that this is a genuine question because it
00:49:16
could be perceived as a, not a genuine question to think that
00:49:20
as a student of the Bible that you you would think that the
00:49:23
Bible doesn't address address race, but you'll remember there
00:49:27
was a great division between the Samaritans and the Jews based
00:49:31
upon Race. You'll remember that.
00:49:33
There was a great difficulty between Paul and Peter based
00:49:38
upon race and partiality, you'll remember that there was a
00:49:43
superiority by the religious rulers over everyone else and
00:49:48
think about this division of race.
00:49:50
It's the Jews and as the chosen people, which is a Biblical
00:49:54
truth, but some rabbis taught that the Gentiles that means
00:49:59
everyone else. It doesn't matter what, Country
00:50:02
you're from everyone else that the Gentiles were there was
00:50:06
actually a rabbinic teaching that taught that the Gentiles
00:50:09
were only made to fuel the fires of hell and and on a side note,
00:50:15
alongside race would be the issues of demeaning women and
00:50:20
the devaluing of women in the Biblical times and biblical
00:50:25
culture. So I would say the Bible
00:50:29
absolutely addresses race. The Bible does speak of there's
00:50:33
neither Jew, nor Greek, neither slave nor free the Bible.
00:50:38
Speaking about in Christ, we are brothers in the Lord, the Bible
00:50:42
has to identify the man-made divisions in order to remind us
00:50:47
that there's unity in Christ. And, and so, this is nothing
00:50:50
new. This has been an issue from the
00:50:54
very beginning, only jumped in from the New Testament, but
00:50:58
there is no. There is no newness to it, it's
00:51:04
always been the heart of man to divide the, you know, and then
00:51:07
and the devil loves to divide. And so as you're listening to
00:51:11
the program I want, I want to invite you into the lives of
00:51:16
those, that we've had the chance to hear from invite you from.
00:51:19
I mean, Avon Avon is, and all the men that I've had here are
00:51:24
good friends of mine that I would trust them with my life.
00:51:28
I would trust them with my A family.
00:51:31
And yet, we're also crop. We're in the same room together,
00:51:35
and, and I'm listening and a brother across the room is
00:51:39
hurting. I mean, real hurt, they're not
00:51:42
with, it's not contrived, it's not made-up, it's not, it's not
00:51:46
pity, it's not feel sorry for me, it's not anything that we
00:51:50
might want to make it. It's a brother that has a memory
00:51:53
of having a sit-down with his son and say, look son.
00:51:56
When you go into the market, make sure you have money in your
00:51:59
Kit. Because if you're asked what
00:52:02
you're here for, and you say I'm here to buy something for my mom
00:52:05
for Mother's Day and you don't have any money in your pocket,
00:52:08
you're immediately going to become a suspect, you're
00:52:10
immediately going to be considered a liar.
00:52:13
Even if you went in to say, you were just looking for things for
00:52:16
your mom, there may be a tendency that they won't believe
00:52:20
you because of the way you look. So put money in your pocket
00:52:25
dollar bills have some money so that if they ask you, you'll
00:52:28
have one more piece of Of evidence to prove to you.
00:52:31
That you're an upstanding citizen and that's just the
00:52:34
facts. We could respond to go.
00:52:36
I don't know. It's never happened to me like
00:52:38
like Mark said, but man, it's happened to a lot of our
00:52:41
friends, and if we would just ask, I've never been, I've
00:52:45
never, I've had the police called on me many times before I
00:52:47
got saved because I deserved it. I haven't as a 50 year old man.
00:52:53
I haven't had someone called the police on me for washing my
00:52:57
windows in my Hood Ever or climbing the fence, you know, I
00:53:02
hopped the fence on my in my neighborhood to get some more
00:53:06
oil instead of walking around, I'll hop the fence.
00:53:09
I've never had anybody call the police on me for hopping the
00:53:12
fence in my neighborhood, or walking the park in my
00:53:15
neighborhood or, and so the, the goal for us in these
00:53:21
conversations Is for you just to hear another perspective.
00:53:26
Yes. And and these are perspectives
00:53:28
that need to be heard. Somebody asked me, you know, if
00:53:30
he changed the show. Well yeah, yeah, I guess I have
00:53:34
changed the show for a time being.
00:53:35
We need to address like we need to walk into this and not allow
00:53:40
the media to Define it for us. Not allow our preconceived ideas
00:53:44
to Define it for us, but let's talk to people that are living
00:53:47
in the 21st century in black skin.
00:53:51
And let's just hear him. My brothers in the lord, they're
00:53:54
my brothers. We Are One in Christ and and I'm
00:53:58
I've been encouraged. I'm learning and growing so I
00:54:01
could be more effective with the gospel.
00:54:04
Did you have a scripture? I did, but I want to go back to
00:54:08
what you just said, you know, when you asked me today, if I
00:54:12
wanted to do this, I was apprehensive and then when you
00:54:17
shared about some people are coming at my pastor.
00:54:22
And and when I heard that, I didn't, I didn't want them to do
00:54:26
this show, guys. I basically, you know, if people
00:54:31
feel that way about this man who I love if they feel like that
00:54:38
because of a show because of a conversation, didn't, I didn't
00:54:43
want to do this show but He stood up and said we're going to
00:54:47
do it. Just because and so I wanted to
00:54:53
read the scripture in John, first, John.
00:54:58
And in this has been my heart. whoever confesses that Jesus is
00:55:05
Lord, is, Son of God, God abides in him and he in God, So we have
00:55:13
come to know and to believe the love that God has had for us.
00:55:17
God is love and whoever abides in love abides, in God, and God
00:55:20
abides and God abides in him by this, by this is love perfected
00:55:26
within us so that we may have confidence for the day of
00:55:29
judgment because as he is. So also are we in the world?
00:55:33
There's no fear in love, but perfect love, cast out, fear.
00:55:38
So good. Yeah, well we're already at the
00:55:40
end of the show event. You have any final thoughts
00:55:42
besides that? Scripture that you got about a
00:55:45
minute that you could share with the audience with share with me.
00:55:48
Hey guys, I just want to say if I could say anything for what, I
00:55:52
see, if it was my personal opinion, it would be.
00:55:56
We get we should get back to the basics and go back to God's word
00:56:01
and you are always welcome at any color.
00:56:04
You're always welcome at Calvary Chapel Calvary.
00:56:08
Church, Colorado. Whatever our name is, these
00:56:10
days. We had like 20.
00:56:11
I just wanted to know a pastor at.
00:56:14
We love you. I love you.
00:56:16
I thank you for allowing me to come into this studio and share
00:56:19
time with you and very appreciative of you in our
00:56:22
friendship. Well, I appreciate, I know this
00:56:25
wasn't easy for you and I know you didn't come in thinking this
00:56:28
but having what you shared with us as a team, as you do with
00:56:33
from that place of maturity, I felt like, you know, I think
00:56:37
this would be a A good addition to these conversations that
00:56:40
we're having because as we've had this is our fifth one.
00:56:44
There's so many different perspectives from very strong,
00:56:48
Godly men and from your maturity, your experience.
00:56:52
I'm sure that we could go on with episode after episode and
00:56:56
how your thinking has changed. But I know that what you share
00:56:59
today is what God wanted us to hear.
00:57:01
It's what God wants to add to us so that we might be more
00:57:05
effective. And and what God's brought me
00:57:07
back to him. Simplicity is how Jesus summed
00:57:09
up the law for us. You love the Lord God with all
00:57:12
your heart, soul and mind and the practical application of
00:57:16
that as we love our neighbor. Yes.
00:57:18
And what did Mi say Mi said? We have a way of making sure
00:57:22
that we label people. So they aren't our neighbors
00:57:25
anymore and we don't have to love them and that's not the
00:57:28
heart of God. No.
00:57:31
Thank you for joining us for this episode of lead, to serve
00:57:33
with Pastor Ed, Taylor, a leadership podcast from Calvary
00:57:37
Church in Aurora. Colorado, if you have a
00:57:39
leadership question, you want to hear answered on a future lead
00:57:42
to serve podcast, please email it to Pastor Ed at Calvary Co
00:57:46
dot church and if you like our podcasts Please Subscribe rate
00:57:50
or review us on iTunes and share us with your friends on social
00:57:53
media. Thanks again for joining us and
00:57:55
we'll see you next time right here on the lead to serve
00:57:58
podcast. Thank you for joining us for
00:57:32
this episode of lead, to serve with Pastor Ed, Taylor, a
00:57:35
leadership podcast from Calvary Church in Aurora.
00:57:38
Colorado, if you have a leadership question, you want to
00:57:40
hear answered on a future lead to serve podcast, please email
00:57:44
it to Pastor Ed at Calvary Co dot church and if you like our
00:57:48
podcasts Please Subscribe rate or review us on iTunes and share
00:57:52
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00:57:54
Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time right
00:57:57
here on the lead to serve podcast.
