In today's episode we rebroadcast a live radio call in-show where I sat down with Pastor John Moreland of Denver Christian Bible Church in Denver. We talk candidly, honestly, and biblically about the racial tensions in our society today and what our responses as followers of Christ could and should be. Enjoy and share. (Taken from our live national radio call in show originated on gracefm.com)
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Welcome to today's broadcast of lead to serve a leadership
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podcast with Ed Taylor. Welcome to a special edition of
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the lead to serve podcast, actually the beginning of a few
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special editions. My name is Ed Taylor and I have
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the privilege of pastoring here at Calvary Church in Aurora,
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Colorado. I also hosts a daily live
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call-in show on radio stations across the country where we
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talked about life, as it relates to God's will for our lives with
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all the racial tensions around us.
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I've invited personal friends to join me on my radio.
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Show to have real raw discussions on racism and how
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the Gospel of Jesus Christ applies.
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We vetted him down for this podcast and will be airing them
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successively here in the coming days.
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I hope the Lord helps you to lead even more effectively in
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this time of deep deep pain sorrow and difficulty as you
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look to him, I know he will. Let's jump in to today's
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podcast. Hey, good afternoon and welcome
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to today's edition of Calvary live.
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My name is Ed Taylor, taking your calls and your questions.
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We are our offices opened up this week, so we are back to a
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progressive normal here as the team is back on their regular
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schedule. But you know, as we go through
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this whole covid thing and and the the the concern that we step
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out and being a blessing, To our community and we had never
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closed our church and I think that using that language how
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careful we need to be that we never closed our church with the
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exception of holidays. We had pastors here on the
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property every single day since this whole thing began and there
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might have been a couple days in the beginning where we didn't
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know what we were doing or how to respond yet.
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But as things got clearer we remained open.
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In. So it's it's good to have
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though, some some progress back to normalcy, we're looking
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forward to seeing more regular Services.
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We have a regular service tonight that you can attend in
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person if you want to come to church tonight.
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Come in person. But you have to register first
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and that's where it starts. So go to our website, Calvary Co
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dot Church, Calvary Co dot Church.
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Space is limited. We're in the Book of Daniel and
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Are almost done with Daniel. Just finishing up chapter 12.
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And then we're on this little mini series of the last days.
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And because Daniel and Genesis chapter 12, he's told that what
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he wrote should be sealed up till the last days and then, you
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understand it more. Well, we understand it more, we
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believe we're in the last days. And so we've been looking at the
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what the Bible has to say in Timothy.
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And now we're heading over to Matthew 24 of what to look for
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in the last Last days. So come on out.
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You can come here tonight here at Calvary Church 7 p.m. we will
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be here live all social distancing, all the measures
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CDC, almost everything that Colorado has requested will
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happen masks. Yes, you will have to wear a
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mask distancing. We rearrange this, get the
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sanctuary. I think that they want
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20-something feet between your worship.
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And the first person in the row and I think we're almost there.
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I think we're 25 feet from Ian the closest you can get to Ian.
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But I was thinking that because the drummer's always in one of
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those plastic cages, we should put in in one of those plastic
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cages and then we'll be all be protected from his singing.
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So at any rate, we do need to start out the show with a smile
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because we're going to enter into some challenging
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discussions on purpose. We purposely ously scheduled to
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show the way it is today because we want to talk about the
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surrounding civil diff civil. Cultural societal challenges
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that we're facing right now. We want to talk about racism, we
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want to talk about Injustice and we want to talk about from a
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Biblical perspective. What what's the context?
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What's a Biblical framework in context for what's going on in
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the world today? Our, I recognize my limitations
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because I'm not a black man and so, I have limitations in my
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perspective that I have much to learn.
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So I've invited a friend of mine, Pastor, John Moreland from
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the Denver, Christian Bible Church in Denver and and here
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are things I knew but I'm going to read them to you.
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I knew some of them but I'm going to read them to you
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Pastor. John is a former police officer
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for the US Air Course, he was also a police officer in New
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Mexico Albuquerque, right? Correct.
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He came to Denver in 2007 and he was a pastor of a church for
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many years there until he planted the Denver.
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Christian Bible Church in 2012. And we are in the presence of
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the president of the Colorado Baptist Association, and he's
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doing a great job with that. He's married to Kenna, they're
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raising four kids. Cana is Cana five kids.
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Okay, so I've got four, we're missing one.
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So, for kids kaena. Is that the correct correct?
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Ation, Jordan? Ashley.
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Kendall and were missing. Kevin, Kevin.
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Kevin is our youngest, he's That.
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And and so if you get that by off our website, we may need to
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update. Its velocity Tanya.
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If you're listening, let's update the website.
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So Jean, welcome to the program. Thank you, it's a privilege to
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be here. Thanks for having me.
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Let's go back to 2007, when you came to Denver, how soon after
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you came to Denver did you? And I meet what year did we you?
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And I connect. I'm going to say it's pretty
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close but I don't remember yeah, pretty close to the beginning.
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I got here. December 1st.
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Six, I got called to Pastor my first church in December of 07
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and somewhere in 08, maybe 09 you and I connected.
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So at least ten eleven, twelve years, at least and it's been a
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neat growing friendship that we've had Ministry relationship
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friendship and it's been a blessing to have you in my life.
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And now, I don't know any other way than just to jump in.
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We have We have great, we have great trouble in our culture
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right now. Yeah.
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And this particular, the particular difficulty that that
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we see today started, I think the context of what's happening
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with Ahmad Barberie, is that with that?
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I think that is my pronouncing that right?
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Kevin and And then we had George Floyd and then it seems like all
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hell has broken loose in our culture.
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How let me ask, let me start with this.
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How are you doing as personally as a man as a black man right
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now, just personally seeing and watching all of this unfold.
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Yeah I think I've run the gamut of emotions over the last, you
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know, week or two today right now.
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And I was thinking about this when I was in downstairs washing
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my hands today, right now is the first time I have felt somewhat
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encouraged since all this kind of began to happen.
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And so, frankly, I've been angry, I've been confused, I've
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been theologically challenged, I have been sad, so probably a
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gamut of emotions today. I feel hope.
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Awful. I feel like the Lord has spoken
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to me through his word and through his Holy Spirit and so I
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feel like I have a healthier Outlook today than I've had in
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the last two weeks. Probably, the reason I wanted to
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start out with this question in this because that's what I
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started out when I called you tomorrow.
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I'm going to have my friend Bill Buffington he and I go way back
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to California when he started. I was just a volunteer at that
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church and he had just started. Position as helping in the
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lunchroom at the school there and we had a mutual friend that
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saw our personalities and she said you got to meet Bill.
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You got to beat Mill and so Bill and I go way way back, 20 plus
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years and when I called him I asked them the same thing
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because if you're on social media I'm certain you're not
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getting that question. If you're watching the news that
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questions not coming up. If depending on the circle of
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People in your life, for example, if you post, I'm not on
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Facebook anymore. So I don't know what people are
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posting on Facebook. That's a different show for a
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different time because I just can't handle it.
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But I'm, I wonder how much are you on Facebook?
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I am. How many people have reached out
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to you? And ask you how you're doing
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several actually and in comparison, what do you think
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the percentage would be? Oh yeah.
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So I could probably count them on one hand who actually have
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yes, you know who have called Me and said, how are you really
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doing, right? And I've been grateful for those
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calls. Yes.
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Been grateful for those calls but I have I try to use social
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media as a platform to challenge to educate.
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Sometimes I argue, you know, then my wife, my wife gets me
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back in line. Yes, but I try to use it in a
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responsible way. What I really want to do now is
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provoke healthy productive dialogue.
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Yes. So yeah.
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So that so in promoting healthy productive Active dialogue.
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What do you think is happening right now in the streets of
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Denver and the street what what do you see from?
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You know, maybe one p.m. till 10 p.m. o boy.
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What do you see? What do you think is happening?
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So spiritually, I think what's happening?
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And I think what's necessary is God is calling people.
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First and foremost to look at him to return to him or if
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people don't have a relationship with him through Jesus to come
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to him, I really do believe that God is working in this
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circumstance. I think God alone has the
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answer. I think God Alone In Jesus is
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the answer. And before we begin interpret,
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this one of the things that the Lord, I feel like kind of gave
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to me today this morning, in fact, in a conversation with my
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wife, it was a good reminder and has been very helpful throughout
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the day. We've got a first look at him
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and then we got to interpret everything through God through
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his word and I do think that there are some theological
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things to talk about but it was just so Peace, giving to me this
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morning to be reminded. We've got a first look at God,
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and everything else is interpreted through him and God
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has cleared, that his ways are higher than our ways.
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His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
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So that's what I meant when I said, I think he's gonna stretch
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us theologically in this season, he certainly has me, but that's
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where I would begin. The conversation is God's
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calling us to see him. So we we spent this morning
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Wednesday's are our staff meeting and this is our first
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staff meeting back in the Building for the time being were
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done with zoom calls, as good as those have been for staff
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meeting. It's not the same as being in a
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in the same room socially distance but in the same room
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and we spent three and a half hours or so maybe more like
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three hours. The last three or two and a half
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hours of our meeting discussing this, in the context of the
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different layers and and the very first corner of the
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Whiteboard, I'm a big whiteboard guy.
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So the very first corner of the Whiteboard.
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I wrote the word god, Gospel because I wanted to remind not
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that I think we have forgotten but a one of those.
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One of those leadership necessities of reminding,
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everyone like, John Wooden did having these star basketball
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player. Z take a basketball and say men.
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This is a basketball, right? And, and I like from time, to
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time in crisis, to say, okay, this is a church.
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We're not a political entity. We aren't the savior of World,
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we can't solve The World's problems, but this is a church.
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So the goal has to be gospel-centered.
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Like you just said, so you know, resonating with what you said,
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the the it being God Alone is the answer.
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Our answers are going to come from God.
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So, in order for them to come from God, we need to look to
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God. And and what I've found is that
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the gospel or looking to Jesus, or Christianity can be co-opted
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by other things. Absolutely.
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They could be co-opted by a political view.
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Could be co-opted by a personal view.
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It can be. And so under there, I forget
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exactly how I wrote it, but I said and I said, so let's go
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back a little bit. Just for the context, I'm sure
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you felt you might feel the same way, being a, pastor of a
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thriving church, that I thought our biggest issue this week and
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last week would be the covid. I thought.
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Wood. We've been gone from church for
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three months. Yeah, we have been not meeting
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together. So any kind of gathering of
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people like are you guys, okay, how is it going?
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But covid-19 Attention this issue of abuse
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and Injustice. It's immediately at the
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Forefront right at the Forefront.
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And and, and so, what I found is is not only can the gospel be
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co-opted and so that we can actually be passionate about
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something with the name Jesus in it and actually not being the
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gospel at all. Absolutely not not answering it.
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It all the reality of the situation but I found these two
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things too and maybe you've seen this as well, but this
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difficulty of the inability to parse out The reality of what
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you're seeing and I as an example you've got you have P,
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you have peaceful protesters. That that's that's been seen.
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There are people. And why do people, why do you
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think? So I have an opinion before I
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share that. Why do you think there are
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peaceful protests right now in major cities around?
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What is your conclusion of why? A peaceful protest would be
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taking place right now? Yeah, I think people are
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responding to the That they faced or that we face as a
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country over the last week specifically with George Floyd,
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I think was the Catalyst for these peaceful protest as we if
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we look at it narrowly. If we expand the view of that, I
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think there's a larger conversation and I'm sure we'll
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get into that as this conversation progresses.
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But I think there's a larger conversation that people are
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trying to have ignite provoked, whatever about Justice equality.
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So on On and so forth. And I think there are gospel
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implications in those things and like you said we have to be
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careful that we don't co-opted and confuse it and and again I
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know that those things will come out as we talk but that would be
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my response to that question. Yeah I agree.
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I think I think that there's a voice like peep we protest and
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if we step back for a second this is where the person comes
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in. We all protest.
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Absolutely. So we may not be like, for
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example, thinking about the first amendment when it comes to
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covid and there. A lot of churches.
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Hey First Amendment we can meet we can meet and and you know a
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lot of guys are putting their foot down and hey where you
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can't tell us not to me. Yeah and I respect that.
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I may not fully agree with the whole thing but I respect it but
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in the same first amendment gives us the ability to have a
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peaceful protest and to assemble like for the purposes of
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protesting something that we don't like happening.
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Yeah. And and so it's interesting that
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it gets overlapped because we And miss this opportunity to
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reach people with the gospel. If we get caught up in something
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that isn't the gospel. For example, what I mean by that
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is we can miss the opportunity to reach people that are angry
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frustrated hurt fearful. If we only allow something that
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maybe we don't agree with or we don't like, or don't you
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understand? Like you can't walk into the
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Muddy Waters right now, without being criticized.
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It doesn't matter what you say. You could be, you can beat Pro.
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Like, for example, blackout Tuesday, It was used yesterday,
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and one of the understandings that I had of that was it was,
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it was coming alongside the grieving family of George.
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Floyd, that was one of the ways to use that black out Tuesday
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and and people can't just accept that and say, yeah, like there's
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a family grieving here. So let's just set aside
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everything for a moment and let's feel the pain of a family
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grieving. And I know he's on and it's on a
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national scale, get that because there's grieving people in our
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church, but wouldn't it? It when it do well to respond to
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the culture and grieve with someone right mourn with those,
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who mourn and grieve weep with those who weep Rejoice with
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those who rejoice. And then let God give that teach
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a new sensitivity to grieve and mourn with people that are much
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closer to you. But by that you're not allowed
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to do that or why some people you're not allowed to do that
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because it's been co-opted by something else.
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Yeah. And and so it's good that you're
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doing, that you're doing well that you're processing anger.
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Processing, computer mean, you're through it now, but I
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have to, I have to say from my perspective, I've been angry,
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I've been overwhelmed, I can share the the challenge a
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challenge enough. It's like I thought man after
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processing, the human pain, after processing, all the other
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pain that comes up. Because there's a second group
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that that follow the protesters. And that way I guess we could
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call them rioters and And I haven't had a chance to talk to
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him it, but by their behavior, it doesn't seem like they have
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the same message or they change their message.
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They come out peacefully protesting, and then they take
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opportunity to, you know, whatever you see on the news,
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you Looting destroying two facing that doesn't seem to be
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helping the cause, do you see the same thing with the rioters
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at night? Do you think that helps the
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cause? I think it very well could?
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And let me tell you why I say that, because I know that
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probably shock. Some people to hear me say that
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and Two weeks ago, I probably would have thought of like
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exactly what you just said. In fact, I think I, when this
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first kind of happened, I think I wrote on a Facebook post,
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like, then we could lose our voice for the real cause with
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this, but I've prayed about that and I really think that there
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are some things to be learned here theologically, but let me
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go back to something you just said a second ago with respect
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to kind of the blackout moment. And why can't we just grieve
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with the family and one of the things I Like the holy spirit is
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has been ministering to me about, is this principle of
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Jesus, as Emmanuel, you know, Isaiah the prophet says, in
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Isaiah 7 that the Virgin shall be with child and you shall call
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his name Emmanuel and it's this idea of God With Us, right?
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And I was just thinking through this, you know, in Hebrews 1 and
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9. The Bible says that, that Jesus
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was made a little lower than the angels for A while, in other
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words, he came and became a human for a while, right?
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And Hebrews 1 and 14, it says he partook of flesh and blood.
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So, we've got this picture of Jesus, right?
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The second person of the godhead veiling, his deity, abandoning
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heaven, for a season, and coming to dwell among his people, where
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they were to meet them where they were.
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And so as I process this theologically, I think one of
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the things That we have to do is begin to look at this and say
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okay in spite of all of our differences despite the fact
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that I disagree with some of these methodologies or even
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thoughts behind them, how do we meet each other?
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Where we are, how do we live out?
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This gospel Centric principle of Emanuel.
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So that's the first thing. I'll say with respect to the
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Rioting looting man. Again just challenging myself
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theologically and I think we all have a responsibility to do that
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as Believers. And I know I do this, I try to
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do this. If I have a thought, I try to
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filter it through God's word and ask myself, can I find a precept
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a command Thou shalt, Thou shalt not.
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You know, if I can't find a preset, can I find a principal?
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In other words, you know, the scripture doesn't speak to this
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directly but maybe Be there are some peripheral principles that
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I can apply to a situation, right?
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And if I can't find a precept or principle, can I find precedent,
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you know, can I see in scripture where this happened in someone's
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story? And so I've been looking at this
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and I've been asking myself with respect to these riots and
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looting and so on and so forth. Could God be working at all
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this? And I think the answer is yes,
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and we call ourselves or excuse me as Christians.
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We say that God is sovereign Everett, right?
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And so we can't abandon that principle.
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Now, when bad things happen in our life, we have been taught
00:23:03
that we teach that God is Sovereign.
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He's using all things for good and one of the things I think
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could very well be happening, or let me say that a different way.
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I'm beginning to ask the question.
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Could God be using some of this rioting looting to attack what I
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believe? Has been an idolatrous mindset
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in the mines and the conscience of us as Americans?
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And I look at this, right? And I think about us As
00:23:38
Americans we are as arrogant as they come and anybody that's
00:23:43
traveled outside of of America, you know, you Click come to this
00:23:46
conclusion. And I've been thinking about,
00:23:50
like, for example, some of these Confederate monuments that have
00:23:54
been torn down, right? I mean, they, they have this
00:23:57
ugly historical representation and now in an instant, they're
00:24:03
gone, right? They have a sinful Foundation,
00:24:06
they're gone. Even this idea of the flag and
00:24:10
America as a country. It's and I've said this long
00:24:14
before this, it's almost become our Idol.
00:24:18
We even say it in phrases like God and Country, or in America,
00:24:22
or excuse me, in the military. We say, God country flag and
00:24:25
it's like, no, no, no, right. If we were parsing that
00:24:27
sentence, we're putting them all on the same plane.
00:24:30
It's like, know God's up here, right?
00:24:33
And country flag. You me.
00:24:34
Everything else is a distant, second, but we have made these.
00:24:39
Things are idols, and I think God could be using some of
00:24:42
these, a Actions to tear down those idols and I could run
00:24:45
through scripture and I'm happy to share several of them.
00:24:48
I don't, I don't know what the Yeah, I'm happy to share several
00:24:51
of them, but I was just kind of running through scripture.
00:24:53
So we got this picture of Israel headed to the promised land that
00:24:57
God had given them, right? And so in Deuteronomy one, God
00:25:00
tells Israel. When you get to this land, he
00:25:03
tells them tear down, all of the altars where the Nations that
00:25:08
you're going to dispossess have served their gods tear down
00:25:12
their altars. Ders, smash their sacred pillars
00:25:14
and then he says and burn their ashram with fire, right?
00:25:20
And then I look in judges 6, God commands Gideon.
00:25:22
He says tear down and smash the altars and then in Exodus 12,
00:25:27
we've got this idea of God's going to liberate Israel from
00:25:30
Egypt and he sends the Destroyer out into the land to kill the
00:25:35
firstborn of everything man and Beast, we see God, using the
00:25:40
Babylonians and the Assyrians to Discipline, his people to take
00:25:44
them to Exile and eventually he brings them back to the land.
00:25:47
We come to the New Testament and probably the most prevalent
00:25:51
picture of violence and and murder and disrespect for a
00:25:55
cause that we see is on that hill just outside of Jerusalem,
00:25:59
that muddy bloody gory murderous violent scene.
00:26:06
And so when we begin to ask this question theologically Does God,
00:26:11
we know he can because all things work together for good,
00:26:14
right? But does God, use extreme
00:26:19
sometimes violent aggressive tactics to exact his will and I
00:26:26
don't think we can deny that biblically.
00:26:28
Now, I don't think everybody can just go out and do what they
00:26:31
want to do. And say, God told me to.
00:26:32
That's not what I'm saying here. I'm talking a bigger picture of
00:26:36
God, working through evil, because in his, he sovereign,
00:26:40
Working through the wicked hearts of men to bring about
00:26:44
some of the changes that I think he's been longing for and I
00:26:47
think we could be witnessing some of that.
00:26:49
I think there's a there's a I use the phrase.
00:26:52
There's a seismic shift happening here.
00:26:54
There's a quite a few things I'm not I don't have the ability to
00:26:58
know what the future brings but certainly things that are
00:27:02
changing pretty rapid fire layer upon layer.
00:27:05
We have a we have a Biblical Theology of Of the end times
00:27:11
that that has this urgency, that we watch the progressive end
00:27:15
times. Prepare for a one world
00:27:17
government for the Antichrist. I don't know.
00:27:20
Do you guys? Is that a theology?
00:27:22
You share your pre-trip re middle?
00:27:25
Oh absolutely. So I don't.
00:27:27
I'm still working out my eschatological position for we
00:27:31
talk. Yeah.
00:27:31
Yeah, but it didn't hear it, but I'm with you, whatever.
00:27:35
Our view is. Pray pretty.
00:27:38
A Prelude to the coming of the Lord.
00:27:40
Is a lot of bad stuff and it's all highlighted for us.
00:27:43
Jesus himself in Matthew 24. And so, as you're opening, as
00:27:47
you're opening up the Bible and you beginning to see the things
00:27:50
coming together, you know, I really thought that the covid
00:27:53
crisis would be our discussion and I thought that would be
00:27:56
another topic on the radio, not necessarily with you, but with
00:28:00
somebody that we'd be well, look where we are three months later
00:28:03
and three months have gone right into the into the background in
00:28:08
relationship to This tension and difficulty that I believe and I
00:28:14
agree with you, John God is using in a sovereign way.
00:28:17
It is very clear that God will use unbelievers throughout the
00:28:21
scriptures absent to accomplish his will and on even a greater
00:28:26
scale On Believing leaders and such.
00:28:27
So here's what we're going to do.
00:28:29
We're going to continue the conversation after this two
00:28:31
minute break. And then we're going to open up
00:28:33
the phone lines and invite you to call with a question.
00:28:38
And I'll give you the ground rules.
00:28:40
On the other side of the break, but we're not going to argue and
00:28:44
we're not going to be critical, but we are open to difficult
00:28:48
questions. Maybe we can't even answer them.
00:28:51
Maybe we're not able to maybe you won't like the opinion or
00:28:54
you won't like the answer. So we are open to those kind of
00:28:57
questions but we're not open to critical argumentative
00:29:01
questions, it's just not the Forum.
00:29:04
So you hear the music, we'll be right back.
00:29:07
This is Calvary live. Pastor John Moreland, Pastor Ed
00:29:10
They're stick around. We'll be back in two minutes.
00:29:13
Hey, welcome back to Calvary live, and want to give a shout
00:29:17
out to everyone in New Jersey. Pennsylvania, Maryland, on Hope
00:29:24
FM everyone. On Truth FM, of course, here on
00:29:26
the grace FM, radio network and I'm certain that we have a lot
00:29:30
more people joining us online. Today for this special program,
00:29:34
we have a couple days of special programs of course because of
00:29:38
the current events And the difficulties that we're facing
00:29:41
and things that come to the surface and racial inequality
00:29:46
and Injustice and and being able as Believers of Jesus Christ to
00:29:52
really talk about these things. And and even to some degree,
00:29:56
learn how to number one disagree without destroying each other.
00:30:02
But number two, I find, I think that's a key.
00:30:05
By the way, I'm looking across the table at Pastor John
00:30:08
Moreland. But for those of you just
00:30:09
joining us, I want to reintroduce.
00:30:11
We have a special guest in studio.
00:30:13
Pastor John Moreland, he's the president of the Colorado
00:30:16
Baptist. He pastors a local church here
00:30:18
in Denver Denver Christian Bible Church.
00:30:21
He's a father 25A, why? He has a he's not a wife, he's a
00:30:25
husband to a wife but how many years you guys been married?
00:30:28
16 years? This 17 years this month?
00:30:31
Seven if you're listening, baby. I'm sorry. 17, 17 17 to the best
00:30:37
years of your life. Amen, not your life.
00:30:39
Her life A menace but John and I have been friends Almost since
00:30:43
he moved here to Colorado and just watched his ministry.
00:30:47
Flourish, and we'll God's new. So we're talking we're having
00:30:49
real conversation about the issues at hand.
00:30:53
John is black and it's one of the reasons why I invited him
00:30:57
because I have limitations in what I can share in order to
00:31:00
give a. And I think that that's an
00:31:02
important. I hope you guys listening in
00:31:04
understand, no matter whether you're white or black, or
00:31:06
Hispanic, whatever Asian, whatever perspective you come
00:31:09
from, There are limitations that we need to invite other people
00:31:12
to the table so that we can hear their point of view.
00:31:15
Like we don't have, we don't have a corner on the market of
00:31:18
our point of view, even biblically.
00:31:20
I mean, can I think of how many we could be on here?
00:31:23
Again, we're all we, all we do is argue about the fine points
00:31:26
of things that were forever disagreeing on that every
00:31:29
generation had. But right, so here's what we're
00:31:32
doing. We're inviting calls and the
00:31:34
ground rules are simply this? No, no, don't argue.
00:31:38
Don't seek to Argue, if you have a real genuine question, it's
00:31:43
okay. If you don't like the answer or
00:31:46
it's okay, that we don't agree, but we're not, we are not
00:31:49
arguing, we're not arguing and so we just won't do it.
00:31:55
And I know that you guys can. I know that you guys can follow
00:32:00
through with that. So you want to take a, you want
00:32:03
to take a controversial own or straight up, sure.
00:32:06
All right, let's go right to line one.
00:32:08
We're going to pick up with Go and I think it's not just
00:32:11
controversial. It's a good question to ask,
00:32:13
Joe, welcome to the program. Hey, how you doing?
00:32:17
I'm good. I'm good.
00:32:18
At says, you're from Freddy Harbor, but I have a feeling
00:32:21
that's Friday. No, that's Friday Harbor sir.
00:32:25
Joseph friend of mine boy where you going to have to educate me.
00:32:28
Where's Friday Harbor? Just outside of Seattle.
00:32:31
There are islands. Oh yeah.
00:32:33
Just outside of Seattle. Okay.
00:32:34
Pastor jeweled pastors out there.
00:32:36
Awesome. Welcome to the program, Joe.
00:32:38
What do you want? What would you like to ask?
00:32:40
What I want. Yeah, I have a question.
00:32:43
So, you know, obviously we've got it.
00:32:46
We here on the island. We've got a March coming up for
00:32:48
black lives matter, you know, and wanting to, you know,
00:32:53
support and really, I guess get that message out right there,
00:32:56
really wanting Justice and the black voices to be heard, and I
00:33:00
get that and I want to emphasize as well.
00:33:02
And so, just with that line itself, black lives matter.
00:33:06
I'm all for that and I definitely think that it's
00:33:09
insensitive to. To say, well, all lives matter,
00:33:11
right? Because we're coming from two
00:33:13
different contexts. So, where is that?
00:33:16
Line of wanting to show empathy, but at the same time, I don't
00:33:19
agree with all all the, I guess you could say, maybe they're
00:33:24
what they stand for when you when you look at the website and
00:33:27
you kind of go through what they believe.
00:33:28
There's a lot of things that I don't agree with, but I
00:33:30
definitely agree with that line. Black lives, do matter and I
00:33:36
want to emphasize, I want to be a part of what our community is
00:33:38
doing, but where do I think that line is of where we take maybe a
00:33:43
stand or not stand or were letting walls fall down so he
00:33:47
can really connect with not just our black brothers and sisters,
00:33:52
right? But also, just even our
00:33:53
community who is also hurting as a result of this?
00:33:56
Yeah. Good question.
00:33:57
So one of the things I would ask, I'd be curious to know.
00:34:01
Maybe one small thing if we have time of, you care to share that
00:34:05
you disagree with, but what I would say to that is, I would
00:34:08
treat this. Like, I would listening to a
00:34:12
sermon in church, right? And so, you don't agree with
00:34:15
everything as you listen to a sermon, nor do I, but we can
00:34:21
listen to the whole of the message and find.
00:34:26
Yeah, I may disagree on some of the finer points but what's the,
00:34:29
what's the whole of the message? Right?
00:34:32
And so, as I think about the black lives matter movement,
00:34:35
yeah, we may disagree on some of the finer points of emphasis and
00:34:38
so forth. But the Oh, love the message is,
00:34:41
we have a group of people in America that historically have
00:34:46
been ostracized, have been treated unfairly by the American
00:34:52
systems, right? Some of our core systems, I
00:34:55
don't think those things are really up for debate anymore,
00:34:57
right? Like most people would concede.
00:35:00
Yeah, black people get longer jail sentences, you know, black
00:35:03
and brown people. You know, tend to live in food
00:35:06
deserts. So on so forth, right?
00:35:08
We could go on and on with the system, And so if you can hear
00:35:13
the whole of the message, right? Which is let's treat, everyone
00:35:18
fairly and equally. If you can exegete that out,
00:35:21
then I think it's okay to disagree on some of the finer
00:35:25
points of emphasis without compromising that.
00:35:27
Does that make sense? Yeah.
00:35:30
Yeah. I know that that makes sense.
00:35:33
Yeah, I think that that definitely makes sense.
00:35:36
Then I mean obviously guys I guess maybe it's just it is what
00:35:40
it is right? As far as like the comments or
00:35:42
the backlash, I think. Like as you said earlier because
00:35:45
of the blackout Tuesday, people were trying to Loop you in.
00:35:48
Will you also want to defund the police?
00:35:50
And I like that kind of thing, which is one of the talking
00:35:52
points on their website. And so that that's where I was.
00:35:57
I'm trying to, I've always tried to do this but I'm trying even
00:36:01
more as I wade into this because of the position that God's Place
00:36:05
me in as a pastor, I think I need to wait into it.
00:36:08
I think I need to speak into it. I know my limitations, but I
00:36:12
also know when my strengths and I know that that I can give a
00:36:16
point of view that's important to be heard.
00:36:19
I'm learning to parse this out. Like I can, I can both empathize
00:36:23
with a Of. I mean if like on a much smaller
00:36:28
scale and I want to be very careful here, but one of the
00:36:31
emotions that came up with me is an is my own personal in
00:36:35
justices. You know, things that have been
00:36:38
done wrong to me or the wrongs that that I've experienced
00:36:42
because of the sin of others. Not just my own sin, but the sin
00:36:46
of others that I have to process, and I'm like, wow, you
00:36:50
know, I know the feeling of and Injustice and let me be careful
00:36:56
that. I don't know.
00:36:56
The feeling of Injustice is that John has experienced but John
00:37:00
and I John's black, I'm white. But I can I promise you.
00:37:04
I know the feeling that John has when he gets a nasty email
00:37:07
telling him, he's the worst Pastor in the world, we can
00:37:10
share that and that feeling. So I can share, I have feelings
00:37:14
of personal Injustice that are relatable to the broader sense
00:37:19
of Injustice that that I'm like, no.
00:37:21
I'm going to I'm going to step into this because I know there's
00:37:24
Broader, I may not be able to explain the broader scope of
00:37:28
racism. I may not be able to but I can
00:37:30
learn, I can dialogue and then with the comments that come up,
00:37:34
we can apply the scriptures. And at the very least, it people
00:37:39
those that are listening in at the very least today.
00:37:41
You didn't hear Pastor Ed's opinion.
00:37:43
You heard Pastor John's opinion and he lives this that he
00:37:47
breathes this. And he breathes it from a couple
00:37:50
different perspectives. Pastor former police officer A
00:37:55
black man with probably you can share the history, you can share
00:37:59
history, that's more personal than we would ever know.
00:38:03
And and so I want to wait into these things but I don't.
00:38:06
I also don't want people to speak for me.
00:38:09
That's why I chose to post today because I don't want people to
00:38:12
speak for me. I want to teach people that I
00:38:14
can both empathize and I can also value the law enforcement
00:38:20
on my, in my value of law, enforcement isn't for every
00:38:23
police officer that was over. There, who would ever do that?
00:38:27
And also my empathy for a movement that feels
00:38:32
disenfranchised doesn't mean I approve of all their behavior,
00:38:36
but let's just like speak the facts.
00:38:38
There's, there's obviously racial inequities today and they
00:38:43
have been for many, many years. And my heart, Grieves for the
00:38:47
pain and sorrow and difficulty, and you can't just watch the
00:38:50
news and go. I can't agree with that, but I
00:38:52
don't know the hearts of every person, that's That's out there.
00:38:55
I don't know what, I don't know. I just know there's a wrong and
00:38:58
the Bible speaks to the church, being a light in very dark
00:39:01
places. And and so when it comes to, to
00:39:06
grouping me in with the black lives matters movement so
00:39:09
there's a to me I make a difference.
00:39:11
Maybe John tell me if this is an accurate difference or one you
00:39:14
to accept, I would say black lives matter, but I don't
00:39:19
necessarily need to put a hashtag in front of it and join
00:39:23
a group, I can say, And independently.
00:39:25
Sure. And and I think that that that
00:39:28
maybe a piece of what you're looking at to Joe, where do you
00:39:32
really want to join the group or or is there another way you can
00:39:36
affirm your love, your appreciation, and your
00:39:40
willingness to be a part of the solution for black lives matter
00:39:44
and I do believe black lives matter and I do think if if I
00:39:48
respond back to all lives matter, I I can say black lives
00:39:52
matter without excluding everyone else.
00:39:54
All right, it's just a statement in time for a particular group
00:39:58
that's getting attention for particular hurts and, and in
00:40:03
fear of being controversial. I don't think this sounds that
00:40:07
way, but I just wanted to challenge this here, because
00:40:09
look at the other perspective, Joe?
00:40:11
What we've said in this country for 400 years without the
00:40:15
hashtag and silently is White lives matter, right?
00:40:20
I mean, we've made that statement as a society in our
00:40:24
Idle systems. And and when I say that, I
00:40:29
cringe a little bit, five years ago, three years ago.
00:40:32
I probably wouldn't have said that in fear that I would offend
00:40:35
The Listener and my intent isn't to offend you but I think we're
00:40:39
at such a crucial moment. Now that we've got to speak in
00:40:42
plain terms and plain English. And, and we've got to look at
00:40:46
these things, critically, right to say yeah.
00:40:49
Has our country said that. Implicitly.
00:40:53
Have we said that when When we give and again, this is proven
00:40:56
in the criminal justice system. We give harsher penalties to
00:41:01
black people who are convicted of the same crime.
00:41:04
Then we do whites, we give, you know, access is the word I'm
00:41:10
looking for. When we look at access to things
00:41:12
like healthcare affordable housing, so on and so forth, we
00:41:16
have sent the message very clearly as a country that
00:41:19
majority culture or White lives matter, we just haven't said it.
00:41:24
#Right. And so, now I think black lives
00:41:27
matter is an attempt to balance that like everything.
00:41:30
Every other system. Do they get every line and
00:41:33
phrase, right? I'm sure we don't, but again, we
00:41:36
got to look at the whole of the message.
00:41:39
Hmm. Yeah.
00:41:41
That's good, that's good. That's where I find myself, I
00:41:44
can wanting to empathize and wanting to learn and I want to
00:41:47
go to this silent peaceful March, but I know I'm going to
00:41:50
get backlash from people within our church who won't even Well,
00:41:54
maybe maybe I don't want to draw it.
00:41:56
I don't want to Broad Strokes at but I have a good feeling.
00:41:59
I will get what would be if I may ask what would be their
00:42:03
concern that you anticipate? Well, I think I think that maybe
00:42:07
it's just because of the media narrative, right?
00:42:11
Oh, now you're with the leftist organization.
00:42:13
Now you're aligning yourself with this and now you want to
00:42:15
defund police which obviously indeed like know I love the
00:42:19
priests. I've got a really good friend
00:42:20
with the Bible College with his though, California highway
00:42:22
patrolman. I am.
00:42:24
I believe that all policemen are bad, you know, so dementia to
00:42:28
lump me in and say that. Now, I believe this because I
00:42:31
want to emphasize, that's that's what I'm kind of resting and
00:42:33
working through I think you just have to be who you are and when
00:42:38
those moments arise, take them take those moments to educate
00:42:41
people. But I want to encourage you to
00:42:43
say one thing that has to happen in this moment is you got to
00:42:48
take a stand, whatever it is right for whatever reason you
00:42:51
do. But you've got to take a clear
00:42:53
stand, I think the day, As of kind of hiding in the shadows,
00:42:57
not being too controversial, not being, you know, that may come
00:43:02
off this way. That met someone may perceive
00:43:04
that, well, that's that's kind of their problem, right?
00:43:07
Let's take these as moments to educate, but God bless you, Joe
00:43:10
and thank you for your questions.
00:43:12
I appreciate you guys. Thanks, Joe. 30 3690 3000.
00:43:19
Let me so, we were talking, let's go here first and then I
00:43:22
want to get to this question. So we got what?
00:43:25
12 minutes, 15 minutes, 14 minutes.
00:43:29
So we got about 14 minutes and offline during the the break I
00:43:34
said, well what do you think, John?
00:43:36
What do you think about this? If we're going to take a
00:43:38
theological approach, what do you think about this view that
00:43:40
there's only one race? And because I know that those
00:43:44
that are loyal To the scriptures, those that are loyal
00:43:46
to a direct literal. Interpretation of Genesis could
00:43:50
come to that conclusion. We have one race, the human race
00:43:53
and and your response was good and I think something they need
00:43:57
to be heard, you said it was immaterial and could, you could
00:44:00
you follow along and repeat that for our listeners?
00:44:02
Sure of what you were saying? Yep.
00:44:04
I think when we hear that, one of the ways we have to challenge
00:44:08
that thinking is yes. Let's just let's just assume.
00:44:11
Let's let's say we have one rice, I'm not sure.
00:44:14
I agree. We with that but let's just say
00:44:15
that we're going to go with that.
00:44:17
The reality is even if we have one race over time you and I now
00:44:22
have different skin colors. I don't know what those skin
00:44:24
colors were like in Genesis, you know, wanting to.
00:44:27
But today we do and those and as a result of that sin has
00:44:33
manifested itself in in that Gap, if you will, of white, to
00:44:39
black to brown to red, to Yellow whatever.
00:44:41
So whether we're going to say or whether it's true or not, That
00:44:44
we have one race. The reality is, we live in
00:44:49
different skin colors and sin has manifested itself.
00:44:52
And now we have to equip people to deal with it.
00:44:54
And we got to deal with the issues from a Biblical and
00:44:58
theologically accurate perspective that have emerged as
00:45:01
a result of those different races.
00:45:03
If only to call people back to the reality that we have one
00:45:07
race if that's where we wind up. You know, that the Bible is
00:45:10
saying this, if that's the case we still have to step.
00:45:14
In two races, we have it today in order to call people back to
00:45:18
that biblical truth. If in fact, it is so the you you
00:45:22
had mentioned, the gap between us and you've got a way to
00:45:25
communicate that where you were saying, we need to learn to
00:45:28
attack the Divide so talk about that attacking the divide that
00:45:33
you mention in building that separation.
00:45:35
But the least for the very least of this our skin color but I
00:45:38
would even say that but not only is send magnified that but your
00:45:41
experiences have been different than mine.
00:45:44
Sure. In many ways living in, living
00:45:46
in a different. Systemic way, the culture
00:45:49
approaches you and people so talk to me about or let the
00:45:52
listeners know what's your what's your thought on attacking
00:45:55
the Divide? Yep.
00:45:56
So attacking the Divide is a term that I use that.
00:45:59
I feel like God gave me some time ago and I've mostly applied
00:46:02
it to marriage. And so if a husband and wife
00:46:05
come into my office and you know, they're arguing about
00:46:08
let's just say money. One of the things I tried to get
00:46:10
them to see is, you're not each other's enemy, but However, the
00:46:14
principle is about money that you're disagreeing over, that's
00:46:18
the enemy. And so if God's biblical,
00:46:21
principle of marriage is Oneness, then we have
00:46:24
responsibility to unite together as husband and wife, and let's
00:46:27
attack the thing that's dividing us, which is our view on money,
00:46:31
right? So that may mean, maybe we need
00:46:33
to educate ourselves, maybe we need to spend less, maybe we
00:46:35
need to save more, maybe whatever the problem is.
00:46:37
That's The Divide. So I think the same principle
00:46:40
could be applied here, right? Most people are not.
00:46:45
Evil and I'm not ignoring the biblical principle at the heart
00:46:49
of man is desperately wicked. And you know Eve I get that
00:46:52
right. I'm not trying to ignore that
00:46:54
what I'm saying is I don't think most people wake up everyday
00:46:56
wishing for your demise because of your skin color, but we are
00:47:00
all inherently ignorant. There's no such thing as common
00:47:03
sense. You only know what you're taught
00:47:05
and so what we've got to do is we have to attack the thing that
00:47:10
separates us, if you don't hate me and I don't hate you because
00:47:13
of your skin color then. We have to conclude that there's
00:47:16
just some probably some ignorance on both of our part.
00:47:18
So how do we unite as the human race?
00:47:21
How do we unite as brothers in Christ?
00:47:23
And how do we attack the the racism or racial issues or
00:47:30
whatever you want to call it? That separate us.
00:47:32
So that's what I mean, when I say attack the Divide, let's
00:47:36
take this call and then I want to ask you maybe your Viewpoint
00:47:38
of the first step to take. So, let's go over to Niwot
00:47:42
Colorado AJ's on the line 8. Hey, welcome to the program.
00:47:45
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
00:47:47
How are you guys today? We're doing well, good.
00:47:49
Good, good. My question relates specifically
00:47:51
to those of us who are in the body of Christ and I'm wondering
00:47:55
why it's so difficult for Christians to understand the
00:47:58
word of God. When you look, for example at
00:48:00
Isaiah 117, he talks about learn to do good seek Justice,
00:48:06
correct? Oppression bring Justice to the
00:48:08
fatherless and please the Widow's cause he talks about it
00:48:12
in Michael also about, And loving and kindness and so on,
00:48:16
and on and on, and Through the Bible.
00:48:17
So how do we as Christians get so far away from his word?
00:48:21
That we are allowing ourselves to be so divided?
00:48:24
Yeah, I think the answer to that is simple because men love
00:48:26
Darkness rather than light, right?
00:48:28
It's the same reason they ignore passages where Jesus says, you
00:48:32
know, come to me and I'll give you eternal life and we totally
00:48:34
ignore it because we like, what we like, we love what we love
00:48:39
and the reality is, I don't think I'm unjust, right?
00:48:43
It's I was talking to a A close friend of mine last night.
00:48:45
He was essentially asking the same why question and I said
00:48:49
it's the same problem that we have when we share the gospel
00:48:51
with people, it's inherently offensive because now I got to
00:48:54
look at myself and say, I'm not really good, I'm bad.
00:48:57
I don't really see. I'm blind and I need something
00:49:00
outside of me, bigger than me, greater than me to help me.
00:49:04
Well, I don't like that, right? Because I got it self-evaluate
00:49:07
well. The same is true.
00:49:08
When we talk about some of these World Systems, you know, when we
00:49:10
talk about racism, when we talk about, you know, all the things
00:49:13
we're talking about now. Now, now everyone has to look at
00:49:17
themselves and introspectively and say how have I John not in
00:49:23
general but John have I John contributed to the divide and to
00:49:28
answer your question AJ, I don't like to do that because I don't
00:49:31
want to think. There's something wrong with me.
00:49:33
I don't want to think I'm a racist.
00:49:34
I don't want to think I've participated in racism.
00:49:36
I don't want to think, I'm whatever on and on and on.
00:49:39
And so I think that's part of the issue.
00:49:41
Is it requires self-reflection? Yeah.
00:49:43
I think that I think. That racism is generally
00:49:46
something. We think other people do.
00:49:49
No, matter the skin color, like, that's something that other
00:49:52
people do. And then, that gets mixed I to
00:49:54
AJ in a culture that that glorifies victim and it
00:49:58
glorifies a victim mentality. So that when you ask that
00:50:02
question about the church, well John mentioned it earlier.
00:50:06
John mentioned that God God's dealing with idolatry dealing
00:50:10
with and I mentioned a little bit.
00:50:12
I think earlier that would come alongside what John was saying
00:50:15
is that the gospel has been co-opted And I think in some
00:50:21
ways we have to ask ourselves. Are we living?
00:50:25
Are we seeking to live a real gospel?
00:50:29
The, the life transformative deny yourself.
00:50:34
I mean, if we just Define the gospel that outgrowth of the
00:50:37
Gospel, just as that. How well do we do?
00:50:41
Step one, let alone, two, you know, narcissism entering in
00:50:45
we've co-opted and I think in the United States there's a
00:50:48
sense. Whether people want to admit it
00:50:50
or not, I don't know. But there is a I guess you could
00:50:53
say an American gospel that is centered upon the American dream
00:50:58
and and that's part of this whole problem because the
00:51:02
American a dream isn't open to everybody or it's more difficult
00:51:05
for some people than others and that that's this whole
00:51:09
conversation that's coming to the surface and and because it's
00:51:12
it's been another friend of mine.
00:51:15
John. And I don't know, I'm sure it's
00:51:18
probably One of the things you wrestle with, but one friend of
00:51:21
mine, just started talking about the Deep angst of frustration.
00:51:25
It's just so frustrating. It's so we he said something
00:51:29
along the lines of live like this forever and it's just
00:51:32
doesn't change, doesn't change, doesn't change in.
00:51:34
There's just a frustration. But for believers, I think that
00:51:38
I shared this with our team, this morning when Jesus wrote to
00:51:41
the church. Nobody, when you go and you're
00:51:44
the seven churches of Revelation, nobody wants to be
00:51:47
the Church of Sardis. Buddy wants to admit.
00:51:49
They're the Church of laodicea. Everybody is the Church of
00:51:52
Philadelphia everybody but but to the Church of Sardis the dead
00:51:58
Church. Jesus said this he says, I know
00:52:03
your works, so that wasn't an inactive Church.
00:52:06
You have a name, wasn't an unpopular church and people
00:52:11
think you're alive, you know, you have a name that you're
00:52:13
alive. So from all outward appearances,
00:52:16
the church in Sardis at this point appears, Is to be exactly
00:52:20
what it's supposed to be. They, they have their active and
00:52:24
everybody thinks they're exactly what a church should be.
00:52:27
Whatever that definition is and then you get the word from
00:52:30
Jesus. But and that's when you're like,
00:52:33
okay wait a minute. He he just says but you are dead
00:52:39
and and if we just that's just verse 1 and to think that Jesus
00:52:45
would say to any of our churches very active Got a name, got a
00:52:50
sign, got a radio Ministry stage, whatever, you know,
00:52:53
whatever it is, doesn't really matter and you're like, yeah,
00:52:56
yeah. But you're dead.
00:52:59
Yeah. And whether that, that is an in
00:53:02
in its entirety, and I don't think it is as an entirety
00:53:05
because of what he said next, what he said next is he said Be
00:53:08
watchful. So open up your eyes.
00:53:10
Wake up, wake up number one, number to strengthen the things
00:53:16
that remain. So there were some S.
00:53:19
There was some Essence, if you want to our discussion, AJ of
00:53:23
the real gospel there, there was something there.
00:53:26
So strengthen those things that remain but they're ready to die.
00:53:29
So, whatever form of the Gospel that is, is there is not going
00:53:34
to last. It's not the real like you have.
00:53:37
It's almost like I think back to the, to the Pharisees, they were
00:53:41
teaching as doctrines of God. The the are Commandments of God,
00:53:47
the doctrines of men. and and I think one of the reasons Justice
00:53:53
in the church doesn't attacked Injustice is because They don't
00:53:58
have a real form of the gospel, and I also warned our church
00:54:01
today, our staff at least that. As we talk about these things
00:54:05
just be ready to be accused of watering down the gospel and and
00:54:10
somehow preaching a social gospel.
00:54:12
And and I said, just be ready for that because we're talking
00:54:15
about things, people are uncomfortable with, they don't
00:54:17
associate with the gospel, so, therefore, they minimize it and
00:54:20
say, well, that's not the gospel, the gospel is a saved
00:54:22
man sins forgiven, and that's the gospel.
00:54:26
But but actually the The life of Jesus permeated far more.
00:54:29
He did come to save your soul, but he also came to transform
00:54:32
you and the world so that your soul would transform another
00:54:37
and, and so be ready. That's like with Joe, you know,
00:54:39
you do something just be ready for the backlash.
00:54:42
So thanks for calling AJ. We're almost out of time.
00:54:45
Sorry, buddy. God bless you.
00:54:49
Bye-bye, what will we got two minutes left?
00:54:52
John, what would you say? I know it went by super fast.
00:54:56
What would you say in closing? I got a whole list here, but I
00:54:58
want to leave. What's the last two minutes for
00:55:00
you? I think it begins with each one
00:55:02
of us looking at our self. I'll call us back to let me say
00:55:06
it a different way, which with each one of us looking at God
00:55:09
first and then looking at herself If my people which are
00:55:12
called by my name. Well, my people, we always want
00:55:15
to interpret that as a general sense of everybody else know.
00:55:18
My people is you My people is me, my people is each one of us
00:55:23
individually that formed the collective people.
00:55:26
So I think it starts with us looking internally and asking
00:55:29
how I contributed to these systems of the world that are
00:55:32
unjust. And then, secondly, I think it's
00:55:34
what you said. I don't think we've taught the
00:55:36
gospel wrongly. I think we've taught it in
00:55:38
completely the gospel doesn't just have implications for
00:55:41
eternity. It has implications here on
00:55:43
Earth and one of the things I was saying to a friend of mine,
00:55:46
the other day, he challenged me the same way you're watering
00:55:48
down the gospel. You Become liberal etc, etc.
00:55:51
And I took him back to that scene in Matthew where Jesus
00:55:53
stands to judge the world and he separates the sheep from the
00:55:56
goat and when he does, he doesn't say, did you pray the
00:56:00
sinner's prayer? Did you go to church?
00:56:01
Did you read your Bible? All those things we have to do,
00:56:03
don't don't get, they'll misunderstand, me, we have to do
00:56:06
those things. They contribute to our growth,
00:56:08
but I find it telling on that day, he says, did you feed me
00:56:13
when I was hungry? Clothe, me, when I was naked,
00:56:14
visit me when I was imprisoned? Etc, etc.
00:56:17
That was his criteria. Yeah, a separation and I think
00:56:21
it would do us all well to look at.
00:56:23
Do we have a big enough view of the Gospel will have to do this
00:56:26
again? I don't think we can just
00:56:27
respond and then let it go. And try to get back.
00:56:30
We'll have to do it again. But for the interim, how can
00:56:33
people contact you? How can they get ahold of you?
00:56:35
How can they visit your church out?
00:56:37
Going to hear your messages. How can they connect with you?
00:56:39
Sure our website Denver Bible dot orc Denver, Bible dot-org.
00:56:44
I just joined Twitter so I think I'm following you on Twitter.
00:56:47
Now it John aim. Moreland, John a Moreland are
00:56:51
you can call our church, 30, 32 to 36 133 or send me an e-mail,
00:56:56
senior pastor at Denver, Bible dot-org that senior spelled out
00:56:59
senior pastor Denver by well.org.
00:57:01
So just to remember Denver Bible dot-org has all the information
00:57:05
to connect with Pastor John I appreciate your friendship and
00:57:08
your candor and I know that even in the discussion there's a lot
00:57:12
for us to learn a lot for us to grow in and I think the key
00:57:17
message is keep your eyes firmly.
00:57:19
Upon the Lord is a Good Shepherd.
00:57:21
He'll lead us and continue to pray for the Peace of your city.
00:57:25
Thank you for joining us for this episode of lead to serve
00:57:28
with Pastor Ed, Taylor, a leadership podcast from Calvary
00:57:31
Church in Aurora. Colorado, if you have a
00:57:34
leadership question, you want to hear answered on a future lead
00:57:37
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00:57:41
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00:57:49
And for joining us and we'll see you next time right here on the
00:57:52
lead to serve podcast.
