Finding Joy In Suffering

[00:00:02] Hey, Better Days family. Welcome to Better Days podcast season nine. This season of the Better Days podcast, we're going to talk about different aspects of mental health and suffering. Throughout these episodes, we're going to lay a theological framework for each topic, flesh out misunderstandings that we sometimes hold,

[00:00:20] and offer practical advice and tips to help you along in your journey through mental health and suffering. We're going to be joined by various friends that I'm so glad are sharing their expertise and advice on these important and valuable conversations.

[00:00:39] If you're new to Better Days, we're a nonprofit seeking to bring hope, awareness and education to all things mental health and suffering. We help churches, people and leaders understand the intersection between mental health and suffering and following Jesus.

[00:00:53] For more content from Better Days or to support our work, check out our website, betterdaysfmy.co. Let's jump into this week's episode. Hey, Better Days podcast, we are back again for another week.

[00:01:08] And today we want to talk about finding joy in pain, understanding this whole reality between joy and suffering, joy and pain. I think this is one of the things in Christianity that's misunderstood.

[00:01:20] People often say like, oh, you're a follower of Jesus, like you should have joy in your suffering, you should have joy in your pain, you should have joy in whatever you're going through in life.

[00:01:29] And they get that from a particular section of scripture in the book of James. But I think there's a lot of nuance and distinctions that we misunderstand when we're saying those words, quoting those verses, thinking those thoughts.

[00:01:43] And I think as Christians, we'd be wise to like delete a lot of cliches around suffering and build a really good understanding about how Christians should approach suffering and how we should approach things like our emotions.

[00:02:01] Like, are we, you know, if we're encouraged to have joy, are we encouraged to also be able to grieve in suffering? Like having a really good theology and understanding of human emotions around pain is incredibly helpful to navigate suffering in life.

[00:02:20] So, I think we just start with like, what is that section of scripture that often is misunderstood or misquoted that we should have joy about suffering? Yeah. James chapter one, verse two and three. This is what it says.

[00:02:37] Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

[00:02:50] So, this scripture often gets quoted telling people that, hey, whenever you have pain, you should have joy at the same time. And that's not at all what James is alluding to.

[00:03:00] He's essentially saying that, and this is very similar to the Romans 828 episode that we talked about, that there is a possibility for us to have joy when we go through painful situations. Because those painful situations in the end will add up and give us something that is useful.

[00:03:19] That God can use the pain of our lives and we should, when we experience pain, know that it is going to give us something on the other end that is worth the pain. Yeah. And so, we can have joy when we face trials.

[00:03:31] Now, we think of joy as like happiness, like, oh, I'm so glad I'm going through cancer right now. Or thank God I lost my loved one. No, that's not what he's saying at all.

[00:03:39] Joy is just an internal attitude of confidence in God when you go through a difficult time. Yeah. The term joy comes from a Greek term, kara. It means internal gladness or happiness. And what's interesting about this term in the Bible is that there's multiple dimensions of joy.

[00:03:58] One of the dimensions is joy is not the absence of pain. Joy and pain do not cancel each other out. There's a verse in 2 Corinthians 6.10 that says, sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Yeah. That's interesting, right?

[00:04:11] Because I think there's a misunderstanding of human emotions when you're going through really hard times in life that you can't feel a certain emotion. Like this emotion cancels out this emotion. As a therapist and a person who's so well researched and understood of human emotions and pain,

[00:04:29] like what would you say about that concept that people misunderstand often? Yeah. Oftentimes we have multiple emotions showing up in our bodies, in our minds, and they're not all on the same spectrum. They could be opposite emotions. So we could be angry and excited.

[00:04:48] We could have joy and still feel some level of despair. You could have those things at the same time. And you have the space to hold both, and you are experiencing both at the same time.

[00:05:03] So first of all, it's understanding that there's a tension point with that too. It feels tense because it's confusing, which is another emotion that shows up. Like, okay, how can I feel joy and hope in the Lord while I am just crushed by this loss that I'm experiencing?

[00:05:21] Why are both of these things happening in me? Because God can do that in us. That's the good work of the Lord, that you don't have to be solely under the crushing emotion that's crushing you, that another one can show up.

[00:05:38] I could have calmness while I'm really experiencing a storm. All those things could be happening, and that's evidence of the presence of the Lord working in you. So well said. Go on. Just going to take a step back to the James passage.

[00:05:55] What I love about the James passage and the words of Jesus is that there's an expectation that trials and suffering are a part of life. James says, count it joy when you face trials of many kind.

[00:06:06] In other words, it should come as no surprise that you'll face trials. Jesus says, in this world, you will have trouble. There's a guarantee that trials will enter into our lives. There's a guarantee that we're going to have difficult things that happen.

[00:06:19] But there's also a guarantee from God that he'll be present with us in the midst of it. That's really good. So joy is not the absence of pain. These two emotions don't cancel each other out. Joy is connected to hope.

[00:06:30] In Romans 12, 12, the Bible says, be joyful in hope. Like part of the internal gladness is we know that we have something future. Like there are better days ahead. We have hope. We have the source of hope and we have the reality of hope.

[00:06:47] And so joy is often connected to hope. And I think during the challenging moments of life, we all need hope. Like hope is oxygen to our soul in the most challenging moments of life. Every person needs that. And so there's this connection between those two realities.

[00:07:06] And then joy can take place in suffering. Like that's exactly what James says. But I think there's some nuance under the surface to kind of work through and explain about joy taking place in suffering.

[00:07:22] I think oftentimes when we think about a passage like this, we're like, oh, you know, like, so, you know, I lose somebody in my family. I'm supposed to consider it joy. Or somebody robs my house when I'm away on vacation. I'm supposed to consider it joy.

[00:07:37] The object, this is the key. The object of our joy is what is in view in this passage. The object of our joy can't be something contrary to the nature and design of God. God didn't create robbers to rob our houses.

[00:07:54] God didn't create cancer to ravage our body. We're not to look at cancer and be like, oh, I'm so stoked on my cancer. Like, yes, I'm so happy about cancer. That just seems weird, right? Right. I'm so happy that somebody robbed my house. Thank you, Lord.

[00:08:09] Like that's weird. And I think sometimes we can be a little weird because we think we've been told that the object of our joy is suffering. The object of our joy is not the suffering we experience. The object of our joy is God in the midst of suffering.

[00:08:27] God is the object for joy. And that's the only reason that you and I can experience this emotion as you explained so well. It's because of God that we have joy in the midst of suffering.

[00:08:40] And it's because of what God is doing in our life and the good work that is produced by God, even in the hardest circumstances of our life that we can have suffering. So, I think God is not, there's a difference between being joyful for our suffering and

[00:08:56] being joyful in our suffering. And there's a difference between being joyful about our suffering and being joyful about God in suffering. And I think those are the distinctions that we need to make when we think about these cliches in Christianity or these verses that are quoted.

[00:09:15] And that's why we shouldn't make assumptions when we're coming alongside people who are struggling, let's say with tremendous loss. Think of somebody who has a loved one who has a debilitating illness, cancer or something that's been ravaging their body.

[00:09:28] And they're watching this person wither away and that person passes away. And at that point, that person, there could be relief because that person isn't hurting anymore in addition to the hurt of the loss.

[00:09:44] And then in excitement that that person is in heaven and you'll get to see them again. All of those things could be happening. And so as those of us who may decide to be present, which is a commendable thing with

[00:09:54] somebody in that, don't just assume to attend to one experience that we think that person is having. Like, oh, let's just focus on the loss, loss, loss. And you're dominating where that person is.

[00:10:05] And you allow them to share with you and to be a person that's safe enough for them to share with you all the things that they're experiencing. Like, I've got to tell you, I'm relieved.

[00:10:15] Like, I didn't think I could watch another day of my loved one in this much pain again. I didn't think I could do that. And I feel guilt for feeling relief. And I feel pain for losing that person. And all of those things could be happening.

[00:10:34] And so because having joy and then having that with us, even in pain, just shows just how paradoxical we are internally and how the Lord designed us in that way. We're just complex creatures. So we just can't make assumptions about people in that way. It's a multidimensional experience.

[00:10:53] I, as a pastor, I've done a lot of funerals. Hard moments, right? Like when you're walking with somebody through loss and when you go to somebody's house in the aftermath of a loss, whether they were anticipating that loss or not anticipating

[00:11:13] that loss, you often see a few things happening in those moments, whether it's that day or the day after. You see grief, like the burden of pain and loss, the tears, but almost always you see the joy of memories and the narratives and the stories that they're sharing.

[00:11:33] Yeah. And you hear people laugh. Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful picture of how multidimensional what you're explaining is. You can experience all of that and don't feel guilty. Like you can have joy.

[00:11:49] You can have objects of joy in the midst of loss and you can also have an object of pain. Like this isn't the way that God, this isn't the way it was supposed to be. Death was not the plan. That's not plan A for sure.

[00:12:02] So I think this is really important as we're processing through joy and pain. Like they're not competing realities. We're like multidimensional beings with multidimensional experiences. And I think all of that is really important. Any thoughts on that, Jason? Yeah.

[00:12:17] It's just, as you and Stephanie have touched on, you can experience multiple emotions at the same time. And Brene Brown even talks about how one of the ways that you can fully experience one emotion is you have to fully experience the other.

[00:12:34] So to fully experience joy, you have to fully experience pain. But because so many times people numb themselves to the opposing emotion that you don't want to feel, you can't really feel the joy or you can't really feel the excitement because you never really felt the pain.

[00:12:49] And I think it's just important for us to embrace the emotions that we're feeling at the time that we experience them. Yeah. And these emotions are good. Like joy is good and grief is good. The ability to remember and smile is good.

[00:13:03] And the ability to cry and feel that emotion and that communication of grief is also good. I think all of these are good. I was just thinking like in this passage, James does not dismiss the pain of suffering.

[00:13:20] He simply gives us a view of suffering that sees a dimension beyond the pain. And that's important. You said something recently that when you're going through a really tough, difficult circumstance in life, your scope of reflection or the ability to see life multidimensional is narrowed.

[00:13:43] You see things from a very narrow point of view, your perspective. Your perspective scope changes. And I think this is really important. Let's say I have a really hard day this week and go through something really tough. I think it's really important.

[00:14:05] God gives us these truths for a reason to say, okay, what I'm going through is really tough today, but there's a dimension beyond this present experience that I need to see as well.

[00:14:17] That God is here in this moment and that God is also working in my life in this moment. That's what James is saying. God is here and God is working and God's even gonna produce something good out of this hard moment. Communicating those things internally to yourself.

[00:14:38] I've always heard this saying, the most influential communication that we have in our life- Yourself. Is the communication we have with ourselves. Yeah. What are the stories you tell yourself? What are the truths that you speak to yourself? Are they healthy or unhealthy?

[00:14:52] This is some good communication to yourself to be able to see a broader scope than just the circumstances at hand. And again, that doesn't dismiss the value importance of those circumstances. It just sees another dimension. You're broadening your scope of perspective.

[00:15:10] Any thoughts around that, that you would add? Yeah. The narrowing, the tunnel is actually an adaptive trait that's for your good because in our pain, it's too much for us to look at all the facets of everything. That's why I think what you said is so necessary.

[00:15:26] So then you ask God to open your eyes to what you need to see right now. It may not be everything. It may be, but it is likely just to see God's presence in it, nothing else. And that will be exactly what you need to get you through.

[00:15:43] So good. Any other thoughts, Jason? No. Amazing. What's maybe like just like to end this episode, think like, I love the nuance of our discussions. I love the practical aspects too. And I think they're interwoven in our discussions.

[00:15:59] But like as an end goal, what are healthy ways to process our emotions in difficult times? Yeah. I think what James is also getting at is to remember God's position in your life when you

[00:16:14] go through trials, that he is present with you, that he is going to, he hasn't abandoned you and that he's going to redeem you in some ways. It's going back to the Paul passage. My grace is sufficient for you. It's remembering that God is present with you.

[00:16:29] And I think one of the things that trials can make us do is forget that God is with us because it's so against, like what I'm experiencing is so bad. This isn't what God wanted. And we often ask ourselves like, God, why? Why is this happening?

[00:16:43] And Os Guinness, a wonderful theologian said, when you want to ask a question to God, why is this happening? Why are things so difficult? Remember that God is saying to you, this is not the way I intended it to be.

[00:16:56] And there's something about knowing that what you experience when it's bad, that this isn't what God intended is comforting because you know that God has a better plan of redemption ahead. Yeah, really good. Love that Os Guinness quote. So good. Any other practical tips of processing emotions?

[00:17:13] Because you know that God is with you, then you can give yourself permission to allow all the different emotions to show up for you. Many of us grew up in households where it wasn't okay to show emotions.

[00:17:25] It wasn't okay to feel bad, sad, angry, or you know, like, why are you angry? Stop that. Stop being emotional. Stop being goofy. Stop being silly. Stop being this. And so it was ingrained in us.

[00:17:37] And so now whenever those emotions show up as adults, we just immediately push them away. Like, that's not appropriate. I shouldn't be feeling this way. And it couldn't be further for the truth. All of these emotions you should feel. It's part of the human experience.

[00:17:51] And knowing that God is with you, you can allow those emotions to show up knowing that he will hold you in that. So whatever it is, so allow that. Notice it in your body.

[00:18:03] If you feel a twinge of anger or to say, okay, I know that everybody's coming around me because I'm supposed to be crying right now, but really, I just want to laugh at this thing that just happened. Allow that to happen.

[00:18:15] Allow all these emotions to come and process them out. Because when you start suppressing these emotions, what happens is they'll come out in different forms later and out in ways that are outside of your control.

[00:18:28] And maybe in inappropriate ways, you suppress sadness or grief or anger, and then it can manifest itself as a panic attack for no reason. No triggering. You could be in a great situation exactly where you want to be. All of a sudden, the panic attack shows up.

[00:18:45] I'm not saying that that's the guaranteed reason for your panic attack, but it's a possibility of what could happen. Or you may find yourself struggling in a relationship. This is a great person. Why can't I be present with that person? Why can't I show up?

[00:18:59] Oh, it's because this emotion that I was suppressing, that numbing of that is now keeping me from connecting emotionally with somebody else. So just be very aware of any tendency to numb out and suppress certain emotions.

[00:19:14] Be curious about why that's happening and challenge yourself to go against the grain and allow those emotions to surface. So helpful, so practical, a lot of wisdom. Thank you, thank you. And one final thought that I was thinking as you were talking about processing through

[00:19:31] those emotions, God also feels those emotions. The Bible says that God feels sorrow. Like look at Jesus, the life of Jesus, a man of sorrow is equated with grief. We grieve God, like he feels emotional pain and sorrow. And God also feels joy. Like God feels both and.

[00:19:53] And I think that if God is healthy, the healthiest emotional being, and he experiences the diversity, the multidimensional nature of emotions, give yourself the permission to do exactly what you just said, Stephanie. I think it's so healthy as a follower of Jesus.

[00:20:09] And don't just read James 1, 2 through 4 as like truth. Like feel it, experience it, live into it, connect with God in it. I think sometimes our understanding of the Bible is so cerebral, it's supposed to be lived out, fleshed out, felt, experienced in our life.

[00:20:31] In fact, when James says knowing that our trial produces, the term knowing is good nose It means experiential knowledge that it's not just something that's in my mind. It's something that I feel and I experience in my life that I'm actually living out and into.

[00:20:48] So, that's my encouragement to you. I hope this was helpful as far as some nuance around this idea, this cliche, this verse, how we can do this in a healthy way. And I hope that all of our podcasts are both a source of help, hope, and education around

[00:21:06] all things mental health and suffering and following Jesus. And we just want to encourage you, there are better days ahead. Thank you to these two absolute amazing friends and brilliant colleagues, so to speak, in our endeavor to change the narrative around mental health and suffering in Christianity.

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[00:21:38] We would love if you let a friend know who may be walking through a hard moment, or you can also share on your social channels. We appreciate every person's support. You can find more resources at betterdaysfmy.co. Join us for another episode next week.

[00:21:56] There are better days ahead.