When is the Right Time to Step Out in Faith?

[00:00:02] Welcome to the When She Leads podcast with Brenda Leavenworth.

[00:00:06] Tune in as Brenda and her team explore thought-provoking topics designed especially for women in ministry.

[00:00:12] We're delighted to have you here today.

[00:00:20] Kelly Bell and Krista Fox are here with me today.

[00:00:24] Hi everybody.

[00:00:25] Hi.

[00:00:26] And today we're going to be chatting about a subject that is near and dear to all of our hearts

[00:00:31] and all of us have walked in this, but we're going to be talking about

[00:00:36] when is the right time to step out in faith.

[00:00:39] And talking to a couple of pastors' wives here and missionary, we have had to practice this,

[00:00:49] but timing is everything.

[00:00:50] And what is that timing and how do we do it and how do we work through the things?

[00:00:57] How do we discern what that timing is going to be?

[00:01:00] And so, Krista, why are we having this conversation?

[00:01:04] Well, I love this conversation, first of all.

[00:01:07] I love because it touches on faith and obedience and why it's something that we all are called to do

[00:01:16] in some point in our lives, right, as followers of Christ.

[00:01:20] To step out of the comfort zone, to step into something that God may be calling us to, whatever that is,

[00:01:27] and doing it in faith.

[00:01:29] And I know from just us, not just us three, but other people, you know, they want to know how,

[00:01:37] not just the timing, but how and what does that look like?

[00:01:41] And I think it's different for everybody.

[00:01:44] So I think the conversation is bigger than what we thought.

[00:01:49] That is big.

[00:01:50] In fact, I think I brought this topic to the table because I was facing something that it was,

[00:01:56] do I step out in faith, do I wait?

[00:01:58] And going through this process of trying to figure out if it's difficult.

[00:02:03] And I think that's what we talked about on the phone when I called him.

[00:02:06] It was just like, I don't know what's the right thing.

[00:02:10] And I think that's how we kind of came up with the topic that it's just difficult sometimes.

[00:02:14] Sometimes we know to do it and it's hard to do it.

[00:02:17] But other times it's like, I have no idea.

[00:02:19] And so it's very practical, good conversation.

[00:02:23] Sometimes we don't ever know.

[00:02:24] We just have to go by faith.

[00:02:25] I love, I was just thinking right now as I'm looking around the table,

[00:02:28] we're all in different seasons in our life, different ages,

[00:02:30] been in ministry for a different amount of time.

[00:02:34] She's the young one at the table.

[00:02:35] She's rubbing it in.

[00:02:36] Different age seasons.

[00:02:37] But Kelly, when you were saying that, this was just recent that you were talking about that.

[00:02:41] And so it's not like you had, and you've been in ministry 40 years.

[00:02:45] So it's not like you have the handle on it.

[00:02:49] Yeah.

[00:02:50] So I think the topic is so relevant to everybody in whatever season and walk we're in.

[00:02:55] And it changes.

[00:02:56] Sometimes we have these big signs, other times not.

[00:02:58] And what does that look like?

[00:02:59] Yeah.

[00:03:00] Yeah.

[00:03:01] It's not like, when was your step of faith?

[00:03:04] Like there's only one.

[00:03:05] Yeah.

[00:03:05] At the right time.

[00:03:05] It's just, you feel like it can be daily, small ones.

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:09] But then in the large decisions or ministries and things, yeah.

[00:03:13] It doesn't go away.

[00:03:14] No, it doesn't.

[00:03:15] But most of the women that I talk to, they want to know, like, how do I know?

[00:03:19] Yeah.

[00:03:19] How do I know when to step out in this and when to go?

[00:03:22] And it's not the daily things.

[00:03:24] I think.

[00:03:25] Yeah, the big ones.

[00:03:26] It's the big ones.

[00:03:27] I think because we don't want to make a mistake.

[00:03:29] Yeah.

[00:03:29] I think that's the heart of the issue.

[00:03:31] It's like, well, I don't want to misread God.

[00:03:33] I don't want it to be my own thoughts.

[00:03:35] I want to make sure that God's directing me.

[00:03:38] And I want to make sure that when he is directing me, because we've heard it said a lot of times,

[00:03:43] like, okay, God gives us a sense of what he wants to do, but that doesn't mean it's time.

[00:03:47] So you've got like, okay, this thing that God's giving you and the where, how, what, when, why,

[00:03:55] all of those, it's like multifaceted.

[00:03:58] And there's a lot of things to consider.

[00:04:01] And it can immobilize.

[00:04:03] I mean, it can paralyze us, all those questions sometimes, and not do it because you don't want to do it wrong.

[00:04:10] And other times, if our personality, if we're risk takers, you can just jump out and do it.

[00:04:15] Say, hey, I'm going, if that's more your personality.

[00:04:18] And we can jump ahead of God as well.

[00:04:20] And we don't want to be that.

[00:04:21] I think a lot has to do with our personalities.

[00:04:23] But so, yeah, they're hard decisions.

[00:04:26] I think, I mean, the key, I know we're going to get to the key.

[00:04:29] What's the goal and motive of our heart?

[00:04:31] Is God glorified?

[00:04:32] And are we seeking our will or his?

[00:04:35] I mean, it's going to boil down to that.

[00:04:37] But those are questions that we need to ask.

[00:04:40] Right.

[00:04:41] How do we not be too impulsive?

[00:04:43] And how do we not be stagnant and have no action?

[00:04:47] Yeah.

[00:04:47] Like, how do we discern that?

[00:04:50] And I think we, we were talking about this and we were kind of thinking through today.

[00:04:55] And we were talking about, wouldn't it be so nice if there was a checklist?

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:05:00] Right.

[00:05:00] And it'd be like, okay.

[00:05:01] I have one.

[00:05:02] You want to see mine?

[00:05:03] I know you do.

[00:05:03] Our list looks so different.

[00:05:05] But I don't have a checklist.

[00:05:06] I'm doing, you're in the middle.

[00:05:08] I don't have any lists.

[00:05:09] Yeah.

[00:05:10] But we, it's so much easier in the Christian life, right?

[00:05:12] To have a list.

[00:05:14] I'm going to do this.

[00:05:15] I'm not going to do this.

[00:05:16] I can do this.

[00:05:17] I can, you know, all of these things.

[00:05:20] And stepping out of faith too, it's, we want it to be easier.

[00:05:24] Yeah.

[00:05:24] But it's not because it takes faith and it takes trust.

[00:05:28] And how do you, how do you learn faith and trust except by doing it?

[00:05:33] By taking these smaller steps that then lead to bigger steps that then lead to giant steps.

[00:05:37] Yeah.

[00:05:38] Um, and then I'm always drawn back to Psalm 34 verse eight, when it talks about taste and

[00:05:43] see that the Lord is good, you know, and tasting and seeing that he's a good and knowing

[00:05:48] he's going to take care of you in these steps gives you the confidence to step out more and

[00:05:54] more in bigger ways because you have truly experienced in your heart, you know, not just

[00:05:59] in your mind, but your God is going to take care of me.

[00:06:01] I can step out and do this.

[00:06:03] Right.

[00:06:03] I, because he's faithful.

[00:06:05] Right.

[00:06:05] And again, it goes back to what you're talking about, Kelly, of the motive of our heart.

[00:06:09] If we want to, we're trying to bring God glory and that's the motive.

[00:06:13] I always tell people, I'm like, there's so much freedom and excitement in that, that we

[00:06:17] can do these things through prayer and we can do these exciting things.

[00:06:22] Um, sometimes they're not so exciting, right?

[00:06:24] Sometimes it's really hard, but it doesn't take these neon signs to get us, get us to

[00:06:31] go out.

[00:06:32] We just need that first, that first step.

[00:06:34] I also talk with people.

[00:06:36] Sometimes they always tell me, cause my family and I, we've taken big steps of faith, you

[00:06:40] know, missionaries to be missionaries on a sailboat, missionaries then to go to Brazil

[00:06:45] and then even moving back to the States.

[00:06:47] What are we going to do?

[00:06:47] Why are we living here?

[00:06:49] I, you know, for a long time, we didn't really know.

[00:06:51] Um, but what I've told people before, cause they'll tell me, well, I'm just throwing out

[00:06:57] my fleece.

[00:06:58] You know, we talked about Gideon a little bit and don't get me wrong.

[00:07:01] I love Gideon, but he didn't need to do that because God had already told him what to

[00:07:07] do, but he needed that peace in her heart.

[00:07:09] And then you think, God, it would have graceful and merciful God that he gave that to Gideon

[00:07:14] because he needed that, but it wasn't necessary.

[00:07:19] And then same with Abraham, you know, when God called them out, you can see it in Abraham,

[00:07:24] Hebrews 11, eight, really all the faithful people in Hebrews 11, but 11, eight, Abraham

[00:07:30] stepping out, going where he didn't know where he was going, not being told.

[00:07:34] Right.

[00:07:35] And that's a scary thing.

[00:07:37] I've been in that position.

[00:07:38] That's a scary place to be, but God is there.

[00:07:40] Right.

[00:07:41] And that, those are big steps of faith.

[00:07:44] Throughout scripture, we see that, you know, put this into the water, put your foot into

[00:07:49] the water, take a step this way, look, look towards that way.

[00:07:52] I love that one, when it's put the step in.

[00:07:53] Yeah.

[00:07:54] Yeah.

[00:07:54] It's like throughout scripture, we see God going, take a step, take a step, take a

[00:07:58] step, you know, all the different ways that he tells us to take a step.

[00:08:03] And I love that scripture.

[00:08:04] And it actually, the 34, eight in Psalms, and it may reminded me of something that I

[00:08:10] had studied before.

[00:08:11] And you've heard the statement, the proof is in the pudding.

[00:08:14] And it's an old English idiom, but it means the true value success or effectiveness of something

[00:08:21] can only be determined by trying or using it.

[00:08:25] And you, they said, it's not really the, the statement, the proof is in the pudding, because

[00:08:30] it's not in the pudding.

[00:08:31] It's in the tasting.

[00:08:33] The proof is in the, the eating of the pudding.

[00:08:37] So like, unless you try something, there's no proof there.

[00:08:42] And so.

[00:08:43] Or if you don't like pudding.

[00:08:44] Well, I don't know if you don't like pudding.

[00:08:46] I'm kidding.

[00:08:47] So yeah.

[00:08:48] Yeah.

[00:08:48] No, because sometimes you're called to step out and it not necessarily something you like.

[00:08:52] See, I can make it fit.

[00:08:54] But pudding in British is all desserts.

[00:08:56] Okay.

[00:08:57] So it's like, what did you have for your pudding?

[00:08:59] Or do you want your pudding?

[00:09:00] Got it.

[00:09:00] Got it.

[00:09:00] It's like, do you want dessert?

[00:09:02] Oh.

[00:09:02] So it covers a variety.

[00:09:04] Okay.

[00:09:04] All right.

[00:09:05] I'm with you then.

[00:09:05] It is.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:06] It's the tasting and the experience of it.

[00:09:09] And how are you going to get that without stepping out and seeing?

[00:09:13] I know for us, we had to do that.

[00:09:15] Like we thought, oh, you know, we really trust God.

[00:09:18] We know him.

[00:09:19] And we, we did.

[00:09:20] We understood.

[00:09:20] But until some securities were taken away and we truly had to trust on him for everything

[00:09:26] in a way we never knew before.

[00:09:30] Right.

[00:09:30] That was a whole different level of experiencing.

[00:09:32] I was going to say, it seems like it.

[00:09:34] I mean, all trust is the word.

[00:09:37] Trusting in his provision, trusting in his, for healing, trusting in his love and his wisdom.

[00:09:43] And the more we get to know him, the more we learn about him, the more we recognize his

[00:09:48] voice in our lives, the more we look back and see all the ways that God has provided

[00:09:51] for us.

[00:09:52] He is so trustworthy.

[00:09:55] And so stepping out in faith really is looking back at all those.

[00:09:59] Here's his promises to us and knowing his character, you know, trusting in his character

[00:10:04] and who he is and his promises and who he says he is.

[00:10:07] It's really, trust is very obviously a key.

[00:10:10] So let's break this down a little bit because I know people would have questions like, okay,

[00:10:14] I've sent God's telling me to do something, wants me to step out in faith.

[00:10:19] So how do I discern if that's like the beginning?

[00:10:23] My first question would be, well, how do I discern that God's voice and not my own or something?

[00:10:29] I ate last night or I'm bored now.

[00:10:33] Or I just like that.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:34] Oh, that was good.

[00:10:35] You said emotional, like it's an emotional decision.

[00:10:37] Like how do we tell the difference?

[00:10:40] Well, I think through a lot of prayer and I'm a big fan of praying and waiting when things

[00:10:46] are stepping out in faith.

[00:10:48] I, you know, I know sometimes choices have to be made quickly, but I think if you pray

[00:10:54] longer and you're able to have some time to wait, if it is an emotional decision, the emotion

[00:11:00] tends to go away.

[00:11:02] Yeah.

[00:11:02] And if it's still a calling, the calling is still there.

[00:11:05] Yeah.

[00:11:05] It doesn't have to be, it's not emotionally driven.

[00:11:08] Right.

[00:11:08] You know.

[00:11:09] So waiting doesn't mean nothing.

[00:11:10] It means seeking, praying.

[00:11:11] Yeah, seeking, praying.

[00:11:13] And I do believe that you'll get the peace of Christ.

[00:11:16] God has asked me to do some very, very hard things that I didn't understand, some exciting,

[00:11:20] some hard.

[00:11:21] And I always had peace because I was focused on the Lord.

[00:11:25] Now, as soon as I made that hard choice and kind of stepped out and not focused as well

[00:11:31] as I should have, then there was doubt and there was confusion and there was, but that

[00:11:35] was, that was on me because I lost focus for a minute.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:40] Yeah.

[00:11:40] I read a really good quote Elizabeth Elliott said about waiting because we think of waiting

[00:11:44] as we're just sitting here.

[00:11:46] And she said, sometimes the deepest level of trust has the appearance of doing nothing,

[00:11:51] but it's the appearance of it because we all know waiting on the Lord is an active, even

[00:11:57] though you're waiting, it's active seeking, praying, discerning, you know, trusting all

[00:12:03] that kind of stuff.

[00:12:04] So I feel like I just went through a little bit of that experience, you know, the Lord

[00:12:08] laying this vision out for when she leads.

[00:12:10] And I think a few weeks back, I just, just, there was like a little season, a little blip

[00:12:16] where I just felt really discouraged.

[00:12:19] And I remember just praying like, Lord, you know, that doubt and discouragement you were

[00:12:23] talking about, uh, Krista that comes in.

[00:12:26] And I remember just praying and asking the Lord, like, where's this discouragement coming

[00:12:30] from?

[00:12:30] And I knew, I knew kind of where it was coming from, but I just heard him say faith over fear

[00:12:37] because that discouragement in me was coming from a core of fear.

[00:12:42] And he was just telling me faith over fear.

[00:12:45] And, you know, we, we talk about like how to discern his, his voice or his will over mine.

[00:12:51] And we can think of things like, okay, does what he's asking me to do, does it line up with

[00:12:55] scripture?

[00:12:56] Or what he's asking me to do are maybe other people confirming that it are open and closed

[00:13:03] doors, like opportunities.

[00:13:04] And we, we, you know, we recognize that it's not all closed doors.

[00:13:08] Sometimes closed doors guide us to another door.

[00:13:11] It's not like, oh, I had one closed door.

[00:13:14] So now I'm not going to, you know, go kind of like the easy way out.

[00:13:17] Oops, closed door.

[00:13:18] Sorry.

[00:13:18] It's not the only, it's not the only thing that we.

[00:13:20] God said no.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:23] But talking to other people, like you said, there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:27] So actually having people pray for you, but also it's hard for us to know sometimes our

[00:13:32] own heart.

[00:13:33] Even Paul said that in second Corinthians.

[00:13:34] And so sometimes talking to someone else, they can have discernment where you don't.

[00:13:41] They can notice some of the pitfalls or cautions or help you talk it through.

[00:13:49] And sometimes we, that we can't see because we're really excited about it.

[00:13:54] And maybe have you thought of this or that?

[00:13:56] Oh gosh, no.

[00:13:56] So listening to other people, obviously listening to the Lord first, but having those counselors

[00:14:02] that you can talk through and pray for you on those things is really good.

[00:14:06] Proverbs 11, 14.

[00:14:08] And they can see area of concern sometimes because they know you if they're friends of

[00:14:13] yours, right?

[00:14:14] So like maybe you're prone to run ahead of God or I don't know.

[00:14:19] So they're asking those kinds of questions, not to make you do it or not, but just to make

[00:14:24] you think deeper and pray deeper.

[00:14:27] So I think that's really good.

[00:14:29] I think too, sometimes God, well, I just wrote phrases how we know.

[00:14:34] You're asking for like application.

[00:14:37] We can call it prompting of the Holy Spirit.

[00:14:40] We can call where we feel a nudge, quickening our soul or inner sense of peace.

[00:14:45] Like Chris has said, open doors in a sense or orchestrating events to guide us.

[00:14:50] Kind of providential signposts.

[00:14:52] But often God repeats it through different means.

[00:14:54] You'll read a scripture.

[00:14:55] A friend will say something, you know, circumstances.

[00:14:58] And so you're kind of trying to read it all and pray through it.

[00:15:03] I think he can use all those things to guide us.

[00:15:07] Yeah.

[00:15:07] And the opposite is true too with the enemy.

[00:15:10] And so.

[00:15:11] Oh, there's that.

[00:15:12] Yeah.

[00:15:13] There's the other side.

[00:15:14] When you talk about fear and close doors and because it is scary.

[00:15:20] It is scary to step out of something that is comfortable, whether it's a decision, just

[00:15:26] smaller thing, you know, where am I going to, for me, it's smaller.

[00:15:29] Where am I going to live?

[00:15:30] So for some people, that's a big thing or a job or like the big ones of should I sell

[00:15:34] everything and move to a different country?

[00:15:35] And, you know.

[00:15:39] Just step out into this ministry.

[00:15:40] Yeah.

[00:15:41] Just step out and make yourself vulnerable.

[00:15:44] There's fear.

[00:15:45] And then the enemy uses that.

[00:15:47] And so you have to be really careful of that too.

[00:15:50] Of like you were saying, Brenna, where is this doubt coming from?

[00:15:53] Where is this?

[00:15:54] Is it because there is something there or is it because the enemy is trying to distract

[00:15:59] me from continuing on in this?

[00:16:02] Yeah.

[00:16:02] And fear is a very easy place to go to not step out too because, you know, if it's going

[00:16:09] to mess with your finances or your kids or your family, those are the big ones the enemy

[00:16:15] loves to use to keep you trapped into stepping out.

[00:16:19] I think early in ministry, you use my insecurities a lot because I'm insecure.

[00:16:25] But I've learned over the years, I feel like I can't do anything so I could ignore that

[00:16:31] one better.

[00:16:32] You know that you can't really do this.

[00:16:34] I probably can't do anything that I've ever did.

[00:16:36] So it's like, Lord, I know you can do it.

[00:16:39] So I've learned to get past that one, you know.

[00:16:41] But I think early on, it was always like, you can't do that.

[00:16:44] Who do you think you are?

[00:16:45] You think you're equipped like that?

[00:16:47] You think you can do that?

[00:16:48] And so we use that a lot.

[00:16:50] That just sounds like an accusation, Kelly.

[00:16:52] Yeah.

[00:16:53] That's his name, right?

[00:16:54] Well, it is too.

[00:16:55] But that keeps us from stepping out because we think, you're right, I can't do this.

[00:17:00] But once you recognize that, like I'm, like I said, a very insecure person, I can see it's

[00:17:06] coming from that place, which would be fear.

[00:17:08] I guess if you boil it down, it's fear or just not feeling equipped.

[00:17:15] And that kind of goes back to we don't want to look bad too.

[00:17:18] And we don't want to fail.

[00:17:22] And so I think part of that then is pride too.

[00:17:25] But if we are focused on bringing God glory, yeah, are we going to mess up in things that

[00:17:30] we're called to do?

[00:17:31] Of course.

[00:17:32] And I think one of the biggest things to learn of stepping out in faith is that God's going

[00:17:36] to use all of those steps.

[00:17:38] He's going to use your step.

[00:17:39] If you were like, well, I'm stepping to the right and Lord's like, you know what?

[00:17:43] You stepped a little too far to the right.

[00:17:44] He's going to use that.

[00:17:46] He's going to redeem that.

[00:17:47] But if your heart and your eyes are focused to bring God glory, you know, he loves the

[00:17:52] person that is going to bring him glory.

[00:17:54] He loves the one who are stepping out in faith when we don't know what we're doing.

[00:17:57] Half of our ministry life was when I did not know what we're doing.

[00:18:01] We still don't really.

[00:18:02] I'm like, what are we doing?

[00:18:03] We're just trying to make it to the finish line.

[00:18:06] Lord, help us.

[00:18:07] But we step over here and the Lord's like, well, not quite, but we're going to still

[00:18:12] use it.

[00:18:12] So I can see these things.

[00:18:14] And I think that's important for people to know too.

[00:18:17] Like it's not a hundred percent.

[00:18:18] You're not going to know a hundred percent.

[00:18:21] You most likely aren't going to have that neon sign that everybody wants to say, go.

[00:18:25] We all are looking for that when we're looking for these big confirmations and that would

[00:18:30] make it really easy, you know, and that would really help.

[00:18:33] Which isn't the definition of faith.

[00:18:35] No.

[00:18:35] Right.

[00:18:36] So, but the Lord loves it when we're faithful.

[00:18:39] That's, you know, trusting him like the good father that he is, he's going to take care

[00:18:43] of us, especially when we don't really know, but he knows, you know, that's a huge thing.

[00:18:50] And then when we misstep, which we will, he's going to use that too.

[00:18:55] Yeah.

[00:19:02] Yeah.

[00:19:04] To other people might've looked like a failure.

[00:19:07] And to us, it was exactly what was needed for the next step, but not a failure, just

[00:19:13] a redirection.

[00:19:15] Right.

[00:19:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:16] I love Hebrews 11 one.

[00:19:18] Now faith is a substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

[00:19:23] So a lot of what you're talking about is just exactly that.

[00:19:26] Like we have a sense of what God's doing and maybe we can see it.

[00:19:30] Maybe he's given his vision for it, but that vision, it's not, you know, unless he's giving

[00:19:36] you like this great revelation, it's like a sense of what he's doing.

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:41] And it can change.

[00:19:41] We don't know, but I think you bringing up the glory of God, like that as being the goal,

[00:19:47] like, you know, we want to bring glory to God.

[00:19:49] And I feel like God's very gracious to his children and you know, we're, we're, we're

[00:19:56] trying, we're trying to get to his will.

[00:19:59] I think it's good in all these things, praying, fasting, you know, going to trusted leaders.

[00:20:05] Do I have peace?

[00:20:06] All the things you talked about open and closed doors.

[00:20:08] But I also think there's a need to check our motives.

[00:20:11] And I think you talked about that just in our pre recorded meeting, Krista, just about

[00:20:17] checking our motives, you know, because I think if we're going off of like, oh, I have

[00:20:23] a lack of contentment or I just want to take a risk.

[00:20:27] I'm a risk taker and change just sounds fun or, oh, I want to go to move to this new country

[00:20:32] because it sounds cool or, oh, church planting is kind of hip.

[00:20:36] You know, I think God's calling me to plant a church.

[00:20:39] I think we also have to kind of like take inventory of our, of our lives, our maturity, like what's

[00:20:44] my character, you know, what, um, what's my level of maturity in the word, you know, all

[00:20:51] these things.

[00:20:51] And God uses the foolish things, you know, to shame the wise that scripture is coming

[00:20:56] to me too.

[00:20:56] And we planted a church when we had zero business doing it.

[00:21:01] It made no sense.

[00:21:02] We hardly knew the word and yet God did the work.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:05] But our heart was to bring glory to God.

[00:21:09] And he used it.

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:10] We couldn't take it because we didn't know a thing.

[00:21:15] So, so yeah, I think that's such a great, um, a great goal.

[00:21:21] Um, what was that verse you had brought up the other day on Exodus?

[00:21:25] Uh, Exodus 33.

[00:21:27] And it was the Lord going with us and being with us.

[00:21:31] Um, and that is such an important part of this too.

[00:21:36] And I, when I think, when I talk to people about stepping out in faith and they're, you

[00:21:40] know, reading the Bible and I look at the disciples, we talked about this as well.

[00:21:45] And, you know, I always think I'm like the disciples have, you don't read in there.

[00:21:50] They're like, what is God's will?

[00:21:52] I'm going to spend a lot of time not doing anything and praying and just waiting for God's

[00:21:57] will.

[00:21:57] They knew God's will.

[00:21:58] They were with Jesus, but they knew his will.

[00:22:01] And then they went and did it.

[00:22:03] And I think that's the same for us.

[00:22:05] We know God's will to bring him glory, to go out and make disciples.

[00:22:08] It's a great commission.

[00:22:09] How we do that is very different for everybody, whether it's locally, internationally, in our home,

[00:22:14] very, very different, but we do know the will of God.

[00:22:18] That's the will of God.

[00:22:19] Yeah.

[00:22:19] It says in Exodus 33, 14 through 16, and he said, my presence will go with you and I will

[00:22:26] give you rest.

[00:22:27] That's that piece we're talking about.

[00:22:29] Then he said to him, if your presence does not go with me, do not bring us up from here

[00:22:35] for how then, uh, will it be known that your people and I have found grace in your sight,

[00:22:42] except that you go with us.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:44] So we shall be separate your people and I from all people who are upon the face of

[00:22:50] the earth.

[00:22:50] And so it's just a beautiful scripture.

[00:22:52] Like, and how many people that you know that have gone out to plant churches, missionaries

[00:22:57] like, Lord, if your presence not going with me, I don't want to go.

[00:23:01] I'm not going because we're going to need that desperately.

[00:23:05] And we don't, we want to be in the center of God's will.

[00:23:08] That's the thing.

[00:23:08] The people of God were just like, Lord, what's the center of your will?

[00:23:12] I want to, that's my aim.

[00:23:14] Like, I just want to do what you want me to do.

[00:23:16] Yeah.

[00:23:17] How can I do that?

[00:23:18] Ted and I were talking about this last night.

[00:23:21] We're having a conversation on the way home from Disneyland with our grandkids.

[00:23:24] And this scripture popped up and he said something that I just thought was so applicable to our

[00:23:34] conversation.

[00:23:35] It's in, let me see, which one is this?

[00:23:43] Oh, Ephesians two, starting in verse one, he says, and you were dead in your trespasses

[00:23:48] and sin in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the prince

[00:23:53] and power of the air, the spirit is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom

[00:23:59] all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out our desires in the body and the

[00:24:05] mind.

[00:24:06] By nature, we were children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

[00:24:10] But God being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us, even when

[00:24:17] we were dead in our trespasses, he made us alive together with him in Christ.

[00:24:20] By grace, you have been saved and raised us up with him seated on the heavenly places

[00:24:26] in Christ Jesus so that in coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace

[00:24:33] and kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

[00:24:36] And listen to this for by grace, you have been saved through faith.

[00:24:39] It's not of your own doing.

[00:24:40] It's a gift from God, not a result of works so that many may not boast for we are his workmanship

[00:24:49] created in Christ Jesus for what?

[00:24:52] For good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

[00:24:58] And I love that verse because he's saying like, I've ordained this time and what are the good

[00:25:04] works like our employment, our calling, our ministry, our families, like whatever we're

[00:25:10] doing, he's called us for his workmanship.

[00:25:12] He's ordained it.

[00:25:14] And so I was asking Ted about like this difference between like a general calling specific.

[00:25:19] And he said this, he goes, I think the more Christians lean in, they're going to find more,

[00:25:27] more specificity.

[00:25:29] It's going to be more.

[00:25:32] It's going to be, I was up late at Disneyland.

[00:25:35] Um, there's going to, it's going to be a more specific calling.

[00:25:39] The more we lean into that and ask God, what do you want me to do?

[00:25:43] Yeah.

[00:25:43] What, what are these good works that you've called me to?

[00:25:46] Because as Christians, we all have a calling, right?

[00:25:49] And we're all supposed to be fulfilling the body in some way.

[00:25:54] And that will take stepping out in faith in some of these areas.

[00:25:57] But I think going back to the fear, then we don't because, um, it's scary.

[00:26:02] It's all scary.

[00:26:04] And, um, I love that verse too.

[00:26:06] That's one of Kyle is my husband's favorite verses that last, it's his, it's his go-to.

[00:26:11] Um, but it is a scary thing.

[00:26:14] And I was just thinking as you were reading this and as we were, it might not be exactly

[00:26:20] on the topic, but I'll bring it up and see what you guys think.

[00:26:24] Stepping out in faith also, I think makes you consider counting the cost of things, right?

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:31] That's biblical.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:32] It's biblical.

[00:26:33] I heard once faith is spelled risk.

[00:26:36] Get it?

[00:26:36] Faith is spelled, not faith, like risk, which, which means counting the cost.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] And as I think of stepping out and I think it's a good point of like counsel for people

[00:26:49] when they're wanting to step out, like counting the cost of these things too, you know, as

[00:26:54] the Lord is with them, what does that mean?

[00:26:56] What does it mean that you're going to give up?

[00:26:57] What does it mean that you might gain?

[00:26:58] What does all of that mean?

[00:27:00] How is your life going to change?

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:02] All of those things.

[00:27:03] Um, this morning, my husband was telling me about a missionary friend that we have and

[00:27:10] he talked about counting the cost.

[00:27:12] He's in a, um, a closed country learning the language and helped with a kind of a home church

[00:27:20] plant.

[00:27:20] And where he's at, um, when people get saved, they're disowned from their family and beaten

[00:27:28] and all of these things.

[00:27:29] And, um, he had sent Kyle a message and was like, Hey, a question has come up.

[00:27:35] So in their church there, when people get saved, the leaders in the church take them for maybe

[00:27:43] half a day and question them like intensely and not all the time of their will.

[00:27:51] And he, they're trying to see, are they really followers of Christ?

[00:27:55] Cause if not, there's a whole big problem and there's persecution and death.

[00:27:59] And so a question, this young missionary man, God, he's like, they asked him, is this biblical?

[00:28:05] If we're like essentially kidnapping these brothers in Christ and interrogating them.

[00:28:10] And he was funny.

[00:28:12] He's like, you know, Kyle, he's like seminary didn't teach, didn't prepare me for that question.

[00:28:16] And I thought it was funny.

[00:28:18] I was thinking about it.

[00:28:19] I was like, you know, those people who are accepting Christ, that's a whole different

[00:28:23] game over there than what's going on here.

[00:28:26] And talk about stepping out in faith, talking about having to count the cost of that, where

[00:28:31] you are having to forsake everything.

[00:28:34] Um, and so when I think of stepping out in faith, it's not just these little things,

[00:28:39] which I think we are challenged to do every day.

[00:28:41] And those are really important too.

[00:28:43] It's really important.

[00:28:44] Like you were saying, Kelly, like the insecurities, I have these things too.

[00:28:47] I can't do anything, all this, but yet I still do it because I have to step out in faith

[00:28:52] that God is going to equip me to the other extreme where these people are having a forced

[00:28:58] conversation with the leaders in their church and, you know, getting beat and, um, losing

[00:29:05] family, losing family, um, because they're stepping out in faith to, to believe in the first place.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] And so counting the cost, I think comes into stepping out in faith and there's a variety

[00:29:18] of ways of doing that.

[00:29:19] Um, because you certainly can't count, you can't count everything.

[00:29:23] Cause you don't know everything.

[00:29:24] You don't know everything.

[00:29:24] I know as a missionary, I thought, oh yeah, the hardest thing would be for sure leaving

[00:29:28] my family and our jobs.

[00:29:31] That was like the easiest thing.

[00:29:34] Nobody told me that.

[00:29:36] Yeah.

[00:29:37] That scripture you were referencing is Luke 14, 28 says, uh, for which of you desiring to

[00:29:44] build the tower does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to

[00:29:50] complete it.

[00:29:51] Yeah.

[00:29:51] So when God, it's not about the stepping out in faith, it's, are you going to remain

[00:29:57] faithful to that calling for whatever season, whatever time God has you?

[00:30:03] And that's a really good thing to think about.

[00:30:05] Like, because sometimes we're like, Ooh, I'll step, I'll take the step.

[00:30:09] Like if you're a risk taker or you like change, you're like, Ooh, I'll take the step.

[00:30:12] But will you, will you complete it?

[00:30:15] Yeah.

[00:30:15] Will you stay there through the hard times?

[00:30:17] Because you know, you were a missionary on a boat headed to Brazil, um, and not knowing

[00:30:24] where you were going in here, you take this step of faith, but it's like, do you have enough

[00:30:29] to work through the hard times?

[00:30:31] Because it's going to cost you a lot.

[00:30:34] Yeah.

[00:30:35] And that's what the interrogation is about.

[00:30:37] Hey, this is going to cost you.

[00:30:39] Do you have enough to complete it?

[00:30:44] Yeah.

[00:30:44] Do you have enough to stay in the game?

[00:30:46] And that's where a lot of people derail.

[00:30:49] It's not even in the taking the step.

[00:30:51] It's in the endurance, you know, and that goes back to motive, like checking our character

[00:30:58] and our maturity.

[00:30:59] Like, am I, am I going to, am I going to tap out when this gets hard?

[00:31:04] Because it's gonna, yeah, it's, it's going to.

[00:31:08] Yeah.

[00:31:08] I feel like the people listening are probably like, can you just tell me how?

[00:31:14] Where's the list?

[00:31:15] Yeah.

[00:31:15] Yeah.

[00:31:15] Like, there is no list.

[00:31:17] Pray.

[00:31:18] Pray.

[00:31:18] Release your dreams, pleasures, will, surrendering, personal agendas, um, praying, seeking, growing

[00:31:27] close to him.

[00:31:30] Continually.

[00:31:30] I mean, there's not like a magic.

[00:31:32] There's not.

[00:31:33] And sometimes I think he's really clear, which we all like, makes it easier.

[00:31:37] And other times you just continue doing that until you sense, and then maybe the decision

[00:31:43] has to be made and you don't have the neon sign that you keep talking about.

[00:31:46] And you do what you feel like the piece that you've gotten and the nudging and the spirit.

[00:31:53] And then, like you said, he'll just nudge you back if it was the wrong one.

[00:31:56] Sometimes I've had no piece either way.

[00:31:58] Like, I'm like, I'll go this way.

[00:32:00] No piece.

[00:32:00] Go this way.

[00:32:01] No piece.

[00:32:02] Darn it.

[00:32:03] What?

[00:32:03] I don't know.

[00:32:03] And then as soon as I make the decision, I'll either have a piece or like not piece.

[00:32:09] And then I'll like, oh, I think it's the other one.

[00:32:10] So I don't know.

[00:32:11] So I think, and plus I think the Lord speaks to all of us a little bit differently and shows

[00:32:16] us things probably.

[00:32:17] And I think our walks are different too.

[00:32:19] And the trials are different.

[00:32:22] I've seen people go out and plant churches and have great success.

[00:32:25] I've seen people that went out with a calling of God and they were a complete failure.

[00:32:30] But God was, you know, in hindsight, they would tell you like, God was using that to break

[00:32:35] me for a work that I was going to do.

[00:32:37] I heard of a church planter and he had been in it for 20 years.

[00:32:41] It was just dismal, you know, just a small little work that was like, just, he was about

[00:32:49] to quit and he felt like God told him like, give me another, you know, give it another

[00:32:55] month or whatever.

[00:32:56] And he did.

[00:32:57] And the church exploded.

[00:32:59] And he's like, had I left, I would just walked away thinking I'm a complete failure.

[00:33:04] I couldn't do this.

[00:33:05] So I think there is, I also think there's a testing that comes in the beginning.

[00:33:10] And I don't know if you guys felt like this, but when we planted our first church, I just

[00:33:14] feel like that there was this testing, like of God saying, are you going to give in?

[00:33:19] What can you handle?

[00:33:21] Can you handle this?

[00:33:22] Can you handle this?

[00:33:24] How much can I trust you with?

[00:33:26] It's bigger.

[00:33:26] I think too.

[00:33:28] Yeah.

[00:33:28] It gets bigger.

[00:33:29] The steps get bigger.

[00:33:30] The steps of faith get more, at least for us, unknown because you've been trusted and

[00:33:38] you trust.

[00:33:39] And so you can step more and more and more.

[00:33:42] I remember when we were going out on the sailboat as missionaries before Brazil and I was really

[00:33:48] scared.

[00:33:48] That was actually the hardest step of faith of leaving everything in Colorado.

[00:33:52] Colorado, the business we sold, the church we had helped plant, everything to this boat.

[00:33:57] And we didn't know anything about.

[00:33:59] I mean, we're in Colorado.

[00:34:00] There's no sea around there.

[00:34:02] But we were buying this boat.

[00:34:06] Kyle was still back in Colorado, finishing up the sail of the business and the house and

[00:34:09] things.

[00:34:09] And I was with my two boys who were younger at the time.

[00:34:13] And I remember sitting there praying like, what the heck are we doing?

[00:34:18] What are we doing?

[00:34:18] I don't know if I can do this.

[00:34:20] And the Lord asked me a question.

[00:34:22] And he was like, because I was really worried something would happen to my kids.

[00:34:25] They're boys.

[00:34:26] You know, they were in fifth and seventh grade, fourth and sixth grade around that time.

[00:34:30] They do crazy things, right?

[00:34:32] And all I could have nightmares of is them falling off out to sea.

[00:34:36] And that was it.

[00:34:37] And worst nightmare.

[00:34:39] And I remember the Lord just asked me, even if I was to take one of your kids, would you

[00:34:45] still go?

[00:34:47] And I was like, you're not going to take one of my kids?

[00:34:51] Are you like, he didn't tell me.

[00:34:53] But I was asked very clearly, like, answer.

[00:34:56] Would you go or would you not go?

[00:34:59] And I-

[00:34:59] Stakes are high.

[00:35:00] High.

[00:35:01] And I prayed and I thought, and I was like, I would go, Lord.

[00:35:06] Please don't do that, Lord Jesus.

[00:35:08] Please obviously don't.

[00:35:09] But yeah, I would go.

[00:35:12] And it was very, it was terrifying.

[00:35:15] But something that he obviously knew I needed to consider in my step.

[00:35:20] And then you would think moving to Brazil and dangerous country would be hard.

[00:35:23] But that was easy after all this.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:26] Because we had learned that the Lord is good.

[00:35:29] And we had tasted and we had seen and we had trusted.

[00:35:33] And now these steps are like, okay, we'll go.

[00:35:38] It's not going to be used.

[00:35:39] Okay.

[00:35:39] You'll use it.

[00:35:40] I feel like the question he always asks us is pretty simple.

[00:35:43] Will you trust me?

[00:35:44] Yeah.

[00:35:44] Like when we are panicking or like, I don't know about this.

[00:35:47] Will you trust me?

[00:35:48] Am I enough?

[00:35:49] It's the question he asks all of us, right?

[00:35:51] If you go and it costs you everything, am I enough?

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:56] And that's telling too.

[00:35:57] If you can honestly answer that question.

[00:36:00] And is he enough?

[00:36:02] Are you, that's a very, it's moms, it's grandmas, we're all grandmas.

[00:36:06] You're going to make us all cry, Krista.

[00:36:08] I'm about ready to cry too.

[00:36:11] Well, to some of the listeners, we have all different ladies and maybe they aren't missionaries

[00:36:15] or pastors wives or, you know, ministry leaders or whatever, but all these principles

[00:36:21] are the same.

[00:36:22] No matter what God's asking you to step out in faith in, maybe it's even you're with an

[00:36:29] unsaved husband and you're nervous to talk to him and the Lord saying it's time, you know,

[00:36:34] I mean, it can be any category.

[00:36:36] So mom's starting a business, but she's been homeschooling for years.

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:40] So we just keep jumping back and forth to ministry because we're, the three of us are

[00:36:44] pastors wives and stuff, but whoever's listening and trying to apply this, whatever category

[00:36:49] you're in or season or what God's asking you to do, same principles, praying, seeking,

[00:36:55] checking your heart.

[00:36:56] It's motives.

[00:36:57] Glory to God.

[00:36:58] Those are your key.

[00:37:00] And that's your checklist.

[00:37:01] I feel like it always goes back.

[00:37:02] There's our checklist.

[00:37:02] There's your checklist.

[00:37:03] And honestly, every time we do a podcast, I feel like it always ends there.

[00:37:08] Motive.

[00:37:09] Trusting the Lord.

[00:37:09] Is he glorified?

[00:37:11] You know, obedience.

[00:37:13] What's the Lord saying?

[00:37:14] Know him better so you can recognize his voice better because it's kind of like if we

[00:37:19] don't read the word, we're not in prayer.

[00:37:21] We're not getting close to him.

[00:37:22] He's trying to speak to us.

[00:37:24] We don't recognize his voice.

[00:37:25] And you're like, I don't know what to do, you know?

[00:37:28] And he's trying to tell us.

[00:37:29] So the closer that we grow to him, the more we, like John 10, you know, we know his voice.

[00:37:35] My sheep will follow me.

[00:37:36] So getting to know that, that's step number one of any of this and any podcast and any topic,

[00:37:43] right?

[00:37:43] It just feels like that's the hard but easy answer, I guess.

[00:37:48] I think of being a wife.

[00:37:50] Like there, I remember my husband's call to step out in faith and I didn't, I didn't,

[00:37:56] I kept asking them like, are you sure?

[00:37:58] Have you heard from the Lord?

[00:38:00] Like, look me in the eye and tell me you've prayed about this.

[00:38:02] So sometimes it says it's not even our own calling, it's our husband's calling.

[00:38:08] Or if it is my own calling, like, what does my husband think about this?

[00:38:12] We can get wisdom.

[00:38:14] And so there's submission involved, submission to leadership, submission to our spouse.

[00:38:18] There's, you know, there's a lot of wisdom indicated in these things.

[00:38:23] So good, good conversation.

[00:38:26] I don't know if we have any books recommended on stepping out in faith.

[00:38:30] Probably biographies would be the best.

[00:38:32] Yeah, right.

[00:38:33] And seeing there how they did it.

[00:38:34] Yeah, what are some of your favorite biographies?

[00:38:37] I mean, anything by Amy Carmichael.

[00:38:39] Yes, I was going to say Amy Carmichael.

[00:38:40] I started reading some of hers when she was in Japan and started her missionary journey there.

[00:38:45] I like Eric Little.

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:48] Is that Chariots of Fire?

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:49] I mean, the movie leaves out the whole, the huge part about his mission.

[00:38:55] You know, he was a missionary to China.

[00:38:56] They kind of capitalize on the running part, but he's an amazing story.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:01] Yeah.

[00:39:01] I think any of the missionary stories are really encouraging because that, you know,

[00:39:05] we're stepping out of faith in all these things, but you can see it in big ways in some of these missionary stories.

[00:39:10] And it's encouraging.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:12] And to see what God has done.

[00:39:15] That's one of the, how, like, what God used my husband really in the beginning is hearing these missionaries and hearing their incredible stories of what God has done.

[00:39:23] And he's like, I want to see that.

[00:39:25] Right.

[00:39:25] I want to know that.

[00:39:26] Yeah.

[00:39:27] George Mueller.

[00:39:28] Yeah.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:30] Depending on everything for God.

[00:39:32] Elizabeth Elliott, the end of the spear.

[00:39:33] Oh my gosh.

[00:39:34] Yeah.

[00:39:34] The story of Jim Elliott.

[00:39:35] So good.

[00:39:36] There's another book that I read called Singing Through the Night.

[00:39:39] It was, it's a compilation of women missionaries knowing the word of God through song because they couldn't, they always had to hide their Bibles or run for their lives and just so many great biographies.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:52] So thank you so much, Kelly and Rosemary.

[00:39:54] If not Rosemary.

[00:39:55] You're not Rosemary.

[00:39:56] I'm not.

[00:39:57] I'm Krista.

[00:39:58] Thank you, Kelly and Krista.

[00:40:00] This is a really great conversation and really needful.

[00:40:04] I actually gleaned a lot from it.

[00:40:06] So thank you guys so much.

[00:40:08] Thank you.

[00:40:10] Thank you for joining us today.

[00:40:12] At When She Leads, our mission is to equip, connect and uplift women in ministry.

[00:40:17] To stay informed about upcoming conferences, events and online gatherings, visit us at whensheleads.org.

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