What is Expository Preaching and How Do We Do It Well? - with David Jackman

[00:00:02] The sermon is being driven by the text and I think that's the difference because I've been to lots of conferences over the years and people say I'm an expository preacher and they read a little passage and they shut the Bible and they talk for 30 minutes, sometimes very well and very effectively and not without truth, but it isn't what the Bible says. It isn't actually expounding God's Word.

[00:00:27] What is expository preaching and how is it different than non-expository preaching? My guest on this episode is David Jackman. David is the founder and director of the Cornhill Training Course, which teaches people how to teach the Bible expositorily. He has also served as a pastor and as the president of Proclamation Trust, which exists to equip Bible teachers all around the world.

[00:00:54] In this episode, David explains what expository preaching is, why it's valuable, both in the way it honors God's Word and in ways that it benefits those who hear it. We talk about some common pushback to expository teaching, such as that Jesus was not an expository preacher. We also get into some helpful discussions about the mechanics of effective Bible teaching, including how to include application and more. David recently wrote a book called Proclaiming the Word. It's available through the Bible.

[00:01:24] Through Crossway or wherever you buy books online. We also talk about Expositors Collective, the group that I've been involved in helping to lead since 2018, which does similar work to Proclamation Trust and the Cornhill Course.

[00:01:36] I hope you'll enjoy this episode. I'll be back at the end with some final words.

[00:01:44] David, thank you so much for being a guest on Theology for the People today.

[00:01:47] Oh, thank you for the opportunity. It's good to be with you.

[00:01:50] Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, kind of your history and ministry and what you're up to these days?

[00:01:56] Yes, well, I've been in ministry for quite a long time. I started out in school teaching and then moved to InterVarsity and worked with students in the UK, which is where I was born and have lived all my life.

[00:02:09] So six years with them. And then I did some further theological studies and became a local church pastor in a town on the south coast called Southampton.

[00:02:20] And I was there for 15 years in an independent evangelical church in the city centre.

[00:02:27] And then after that time, I was invited to go to London to begin a training course for preachers.

[00:02:35] In those days, there were not really many opportunities for people to test their gifts and to know whether this was something that the Lord was calling them to.

[00:02:44] And so we set up a course which really lasted one academic year, giving some of the basics of expository preaching and Bible handling,

[00:02:53] but also a practical placement in the local church where they were working out in the church what we were trying to accomplish in the classroom.

[00:03:02] And I started that in 1991 and eventually retired from that. Christopher Ashe took over from me.

[00:03:10] And I worked with Proclamation Trust then in preaching workshops for a number of years and eventually reached the glorious state of retirement where I discover you're even more busy than you were before.

[00:03:23] Is that right?

[00:03:24] You'll be active in lots of different ways.

[00:03:27] That's great. I have a good friend who pastors in Southampton. His name is Simon Lawrenson. I think that his church started probably after you left the city, though.

[00:03:36] Yes, maybe. We left in 91, so it's quite a while ago.

[00:03:40] Yeah. Well, awesome. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about Proclamation Trust and what is that ministry all about and how does it relate to your recent book?

[00:03:50] Yes. Well, Proclamation Trust was set up in the 80s because in many of the churches, evangelical churches in our country, people were saying, well, maybe preaching is out of date.

[00:04:02] It's past. It's sell by. We need new methods, new ways of doing things.

[00:04:06] And along with that came quite a lot of charismatic renewal about prophecy and special words of wisdom and knowledge and so on.

[00:04:14] And so some of us felt, well, we know that preaching the word is not negotiable.

[00:04:20] It's always going to be the way in which God builds his church.

[00:04:23] So let's try to work together to help one another to do it better.

[00:04:28] So we started off with some preaching workshops where about 10 pastors would get together and share what they were doing, share some of their sermons and preparation, things like that.

[00:04:39] And it was really headed up by a man called Dick Lucas, who was the rector of a large church in the city of London, which had a huge ministry in the business community there.

[00:04:51] And every Tuesday he would have 600 people in the lunch hour coming to listen to an exposition of scripture, many of whom were not believers when they first started coming.

[00:05:00] So it was an extraordinary ministry.

[00:05:02] And Dick was really the guiding light behind Proclamation Trust.

[00:05:06] It started after he'd been there for 25 years and they said to him, well, you know, you don't want a silver teapot or a silver watch.

[00:05:13] What should we do to celebrate and give thanks?

[00:05:17] So they started the trust in order to set up these preaching workshops in different parts of the country.

[00:05:23] And out of that came the Cornhill Course, because many of the men who came to the workshop said,

[00:05:29] this is great, but it would be wonderful if we'd had it 10 or 15 years earlier.

[00:05:35] What about our young people?

[00:05:37] Can't we do something for them?

[00:05:38] And so the Cornhill Course, which I was then invited to set up and lead, was the answer really to that request.

[00:05:45] And that's gone on to this day and those ministries are still continuing, thank God.

[00:05:51] Yeah, that's fascinating.

[00:05:53] I mentioned to you earlier that before the recording that some friends of mine, we've started a group.

[00:05:59] We're going now since 2018.

[00:06:02] So yeah, six years at this point that we've been doing a group called Expositors Collective.

[00:06:07] And it's very similar.

[00:06:08] It's like, how do we help people to see the value in it?

[00:06:11] How do we help people get some tools for how to do it and practice?

[00:06:14] And so we do a couple of times a year, we do in-person gatherings.

[00:06:19] But tell me a little bit about Cornhill Course.

[00:06:21] And also, is that something that's limited just to the UK or is it outside the UK as well?

[00:06:27] Well, it started in the UK and has been primarily there.

[00:06:31] We started in London.

[00:06:32] I think we had 15 people the first year and it's gradually grown over the years.

[00:06:38] The aim was to try to work together on a certain number of books of the Bible, maybe six books of the Bible in the year,

[00:06:45] to do some biblical theology, to look together at skills needed to present truth as well as to understand it.

[00:06:53] So really, from the beginning, it was seeking to understand the Bible passage properly,

[00:06:59] to set it in context, to expand it as it should be, but also to have practice at doing it.

[00:07:04] So lots of short talks, 10 minutes and then lengthening to 15, 20 minute talks that people gave.

[00:07:12] And they were doing it in their churches as well.

[00:07:14] But the course, there was feedback.

[00:07:17] So there'd be a tutor listening and other students who were often the best critics of the preacher.

[00:07:23] And so it worked.

[00:07:26] It was a year when people could say, well, perhaps this isn't for me, but for many it was.

[00:07:32] And they went on to other training beyond that.

[00:07:35] It was never intended to be a substitute for seminary, but to work alongside the theological colleges, as we call them here.

[00:07:43] And it then expanded to Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[00:07:47] And from the very beginning, we had international students who came and who said, I mean, growingly in numbers,

[00:07:54] but who wanted to do the same thing back home.

[00:07:57] So in many parts of the world, spinoffs have happened.

[00:08:01] They're not necessarily called Cornhill, but it's exactly the same motivation, the same purpose.

[00:08:07] So various African countries, there's one in Sydney and Australia, various places around the world of South Africa,

[00:08:15] that they've all adopted the same sort of approach, but everybody does it their own way.

[00:08:20] And it's wonderful, really, to see how God made it grow.

[00:08:23] We had no idea what would happen at the beginning, but in the goodness of God,

[00:08:28] it's been one of the strands that he's used in different places.

[00:08:33] That's great.

[00:08:34] I just spoke with a church this week that was talking to me saying that they come from an independent evangelical background,

[00:08:42] but they want to move into an expository preaching model.

[00:08:47] And so I'm going out there soon to meet with them and to help them to do that.

[00:08:52] But maybe for our listeners, how would you define expository?

[00:08:57] And how is it different than non-expository preaching?

[00:09:02] How would you identify the two?

[00:09:04] Well, I think the way I would describe it is that in expository preaching, the text is in control of the sermon.

[00:09:12] So what the preacher does is conditioned by the text, both in his understanding of its content,

[00:09:19] but also of its relevance and application and the skills that are taken to develop that and relate it to the contemporary culture.

[00:09:27] So it seems to me that it's both working hard on the text and then thinking, how do we carry this across into our culture today?

[00:09:35] The application, I believe, is built into the text, that there's a transformational purpose in each of every part of scripture.

[00:09:44] And it's trying to find that purpose translated into our world with its specifics,

[00:09:50] but without changing the message or indeed the method,

[00:09:55] because the Lord who inspired the word is the one who has put it together in a way that we should respect and honor.

[00:10:02] And therefore, I sometimes talk about the Bible in the driving seat, that the sermon is being driven by the text, not by the preacher.

[00:10:11] And I think that's the difference, because I've been to lots of conferences over the years and people say I'm an expository preacher and they read a little passage and they shut the Bible and they talk for 30 minutes,

[00:10:24] sometimes very well and very effectively and not without truth.

[00:10:28] But it isn't what the Bible say.

[00:10:30] It isn't actually expounding God's word.

[00:10:33] It's the preacher in the driving seat.

[00:10:36] So it's a sort of way of making the point that what is governing what we do?

[00:10:41] We want to be faithful to the word that God has spoken, because that alone is what is infallible.

[00:10:48] Yeah.

[00:10:49] You know, we are an expository teaching church.

[00:10:52] And one of the benefits that I've found is that, and I'm sure we could talk about more benefits as well,

[00:10:57] but one of the benefits I've found, number one, it teaches people how to read the Bible for themselves.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:02] A second one is that I think it's really helpful in times of turmoil, which here in the United States we face those seems like quite frequently,

[00:11:11] that in turmoil, well, what are we going to do?

[00:11:13] Well, we're going to open the Bible and let the Bible direct our study.

[00:11:17] And I found that to be refreshing.

[00:11:19] I think people find it refreshing.

[00:11:21] And yeah, so we could talk about more of that.

[00:11:23] But here's a question I want to ask you.

[00:11:24] One pushback I've heard, or one challenge to the idea of expository preaching I've heard,

[00:11:30] is this claim that Jesus does not seem to have been an expository preacher.

[00:11:36] What would be your response to that?

[00:11:39] Well, I think I would say, obviously, he was a fulfiller of scripture.

[00:11:43] I mean, he is unique, isn't he, in that?

[00:11:46] He says, I've come to teach and preach.

[00:11:48] And let's go to the other villages so that I can preach there also.

[00:11:51] That's why I've come.

[00:11:53] So preaching is his priority ministry.

[00:11:56] And as we look at the way he does it, obviously, it's built on the Old Testament.

[00:12:01] Think of all the Old Testament quotations that he uses.

[00:12:04] He's not sitting down with people with a Bible open in front of them to follow a text.

[00:12:10] That wasn't available.

[00:12:11] But he's taking truth from throughout the Old Testament,

[00:12:15] as well as adding his own truth, his own additional perspective.

[00:12:19] And so I think, you know, you cannot imagine Jesus teaching without the Old Testament.

[00:12:25] And while we have the privilege of having printed passages of scripture in front of us that we can read,

[00:12:32] still, I think we need to be people who are communicating the ideas of the Bible.

[00:12:37] And we will do that most accurately if we're committed to the text of the Bible.

[00:12:42] So I think, you know, people want to drive a wedge and say,

[00:12:46] somebody said to me the other day,

[00:12:47] oh, Jesus was really a social worker who sometimes stopped to comment.

[00:12:52] Well, you haven't read the Gospels.

[00:12:56] Yeah.

[00:12:58] So do you think there are some examples of expository preaching that we can find in the Bible and in the New Testament?

[00:13:07] Yes.

[00:13:07] I think the way in which Paul, for example, uses the Old Testament,

[00:13:12] I'm just doing some fresh work on Romans again,

[00:13:14] and I've been struck how throughout the letter he's continually using the Old Testament,

[00:13:20] not necessarily with detailed quotation,

[00:13:24] but obviously the quotations that he uses are in a context that he expects us to relate to.

[00:13:30] So I think that in the epistles, you get quite a lot of expository material.

[00:13:35] And certainly when you look at the apostolic preaching in Acts and the big sermons in Acts,

[00:13:41] you know, Day of Pentecost, Antioch, Paul's parting words to the elders of Ephesus,

[00:13:47] clearly all of that is biblically geared and expounding scripture.

[00:13:54] So I think, you know, I think what one has to say is there's a great advantage in verse by verse exposition,

[00:14:01] but it's not the only way to do exposition.

[00:14:03] And you can actually, by picking out themes and significant passages that relate to one another,

[00:14:09] think how, you know, Exodus 17, the water from the rock is picked up in Psalm 95,

[00:14:16] is picked up in Hebrews 3.

[00:14:18] That gives us a sort of model as to the way in which the whole Bible can be expounded wherever we are,

[00:14:25] whatever we're actually dealing with in terms of a text.

[00:14:31] So you mentioned that verse by verse teaching is not the only way to teach expositorily.

[00:14:37] I come from a tradition which is very focused on verse by verse teaching.

[00:14:42] And I've noticed that one of the things that we encounter when we're doing our Expositors Collective training events

[00:14:48] is that we need to introduce people to the idea that it's actually possible to teach verse by verse and not be expository.

[00:14:56] And it's also possible to be expository and not be verse by verse.

[00:15:01] Could you walk us through some of that?

[00:15:04] Well, I think being expository means working with the units that God has given.

[00:15:12] So the biggest unit is the whole Bible.

[00:15:15] But then there are the books of the Bible.

[00:15:17] Each book has its own distinctive communication, its own message, its theme tune, if you like.

[00:15:24] Sometimes we call it the melodic line of a book.

[00:15:26] And that obviously has a big impact on the individual passages of the book.

[00:15:31] So taking all of that into account means that when you do come to the passage,

[00:15:37] you begin to see it in that wider context.

[00:15:41] And that may mean that you...

[00:15:43] I would personally go through it verse by verse most often.

[00:15:47] But sometimes you can stand back from it and say,

[00:15:50] there's a connection here between this verse and several verses later.

[00:15:54] And as we look at this unit, this passage that we've got in front of us,

[00:16:00] we see how this connects to that.

[00:16:02] And this gives us a greater appreciation of the purpose of the passage,

[00:16:08] of the application of the passage,

[00:16:10] than we might have if we simply went through verse by verse.

[00:16:13] Because that could become just like a sort of exegetical commentary,

[00:16:19] just saying what the words mean.

[00:16:21] But preaching, of course, always has the applicatory transformative purpose.

[00:16:27] So I think it is possible to do what someone said,

[00:16:30] a running commentary on the text.

[00:16:32] But expository preaching is more than that.

[00:16:34] It starts there, but then it's shaping it in a way that the message is conveyed to the hearers.

[00:16:42] And the more detailed the exposition is,

[00:16:46] the more it is likely to impact those who are listening,

[00:16:50] because every word of God is inspired and valuable.

[00:16:57] In your book, you mention that there are a lot of kind of practical,

[00:17:00] you know, advices and helps that are provided.

[00:17:04] But also, one of them you say is to be a, what you call a time traveler.

[00:17:08] What do you mean by that?

[00:17:10] Well, I mean, set the text in its historical context.

[00:17:14] One of the examples I use, I think, is 1 Corinthians 13.

[00:17:18] It's a very familiar passage.

[00:17:20] I mean, it's used at weddings all the time.

[00:17:23] It was read at Princess Diana's funeral in Westminster Abbey.

[00:17:27] 1 Corinthians 13 is one of those standby passages that people go to.

[00:17:31] And it's always, or nearly always, taught in terms of,

[00:17:35] this is a wonderful peon of praise about love.

[00:17:38] This is the essence of what love is.

[00:17:40] And of course, that is what Paul is saying.

[00:17:42] But why is he saying it?

[00:17:44] So the expositor doesn't just say, what is the text saying?

[00:17:47] But wants to go underneath that and say, why is the text saying this?

[00:17:52] And why is he saying it to these people at this point in this book?

[00:17:57] So that that sort of contextualization, I think, brings it alive.

[00:18:02] So then you begin to realize in 1 Corinthians 13,

[00:18:05] that what Paul says about love is the opposite of what he's had to say

[00:18:11] to the Corinthian church about their current behavior.

[00:18:14] So love is not envious, is not rude, is not puffed up.

[00:18:17] But he's been talking all through his letter about how they are.

[00:18:20] Their divisions in the church, their arrogant and so on.

[00:18:24] And so 1 Corinthians 13 is not, you know, when they heard it read in Corinth,

[00:18:29] I don't think they were saying, oh, what a wonderful passage.

[00:18:32] We must have it at the next wedding.

[00:18:34] I think they were saying, well, if they were responsive,

[00:18:38] they were either very angry or they were saying, you know,

[00:18:42] we better listen to Paul because we haven't begun at square one yet.

[00:18:46] If the greatest of these is love, then where are we?

[00:18:50] Because our church is not exhibiting that.

[00:18:53] So I think that to me is an example of how that digging a bit deeper into the why

[00:18:58] and the historical context of it helps us then to see what its purpose is.

[00:19:04] And then we don't just preach a sort of anodyne little sermon about how wonderful love is.

[00:19:10] We glorify love, well, the love of God, first of all,

[00:19:14] and then God's love as it's shed abroad in our hearts.

[00:19:17] But we also want to show people that the love teaching in 1 Corinthians is corrective

[00:19:24] rather than simply just a wonderful song of praise.

[00:19:29] Yeah, I think that is inherent to the benefit of teaching through an entire book of the Bible,

[00:19:35] that you're not just, you know, you're really spending the time so that you can see how

[00:19:39] maybe one argument builds upon another.

[00:19:42] You get a little bit more context.

[00:19:44] Here's a question for you as far as preaching goes.

[00:19:47] How do you approach application?

[00:19:49] Like how important is the application in the preaching?

[00:19:53] And also what are some principles for doing application well?

[00:19:59] Well, I think in application you're looking for, I tend to call it now,

[00:20:04] the transformational intention of the passage.

[00:20:08] Because I don't think any passage of scripture is simply given for information.

[00:20:13] Obviously there is a lot of information, but it's not just write it in your notebook and learn it.

[00:20:18] It's always, it's the living and enduring word of God.

[00:20:22] And it's sharper than a two-edged sword.

[00:20:24] And all of those sorts of references remind us that it's designed to correct, to rebuke,

[00:20:30] to teach, to instruct in righteousness and so on.

[00:20:33] So I think that is where I would look in application.

[00:20:37] What is the transformational intention?

[00:20:39] So what does the writer think he, well,

[00:20:43] what is it he wants to happen as a result of this material?

[00:20:49] Now, if we delve in, I don't think we have to make that up and try and think of ways of doing that.

[00:20:55] We just have to get into the passage and set it in its book,

[00:20:58] and maybe Bible context,

[00:21:01] and work out what we were just saying earlier about why it's here,

[00:21:06] and why it's relevant to these people, given this situation.

[00:21:10] And as we do that, and I think the applications begin to stand up.

[00:21:15] So I've often said, I think it's context that is the main thing that gives you application.

[00:21:21] The more we understand the context, the sharper the application will be.

[00:21:26] And the application may be all sorts of things.

[00:21:29] It may be some, it may be negative.

[00:21:30] This is something to avoid, something to stop doing.

[00:21:33] It may be positive.

[00:21:34] It may be exaltatory.

[00:21:36] I find, I don't know if you find the same,

[00:21:38] but I find that people appreciate the illustration of the application.

[00:21:44] So, you know, when I was starting out as a preacher,

[00:21:47] we were taught state, explain, apply,

[00:21:51] and the illustrations were usually in the explanation.

[00:21:55] But if we're doing the job properly in expository preaching,

[00:21:58] the explanation in a way doesn't need illustration,

[00:22:01] but the application I think does,

[00:22:03] especially today when people are less familiar with scripture,

[00:22:08] less used to studying it in detail.

[00:22:11] And I find that people really appreciate it if you say,

[00:22:14] well, now what are the implications of this?

[00:22:16] Let's have a look at how that might work out in your job tomorrow,

[00:22:21] in your family context,

[00:22:23] in our living together as Christians in this congregation.

[00:22:26] And I think that's where the rubber hits the road

[00:22:30] in terms of the todayness of the application.

[00:22:34] But we don't bolt on our applications to the text, you know.

[00:22:40] I mean, when Cornhill students arrived,

[00:22:42] they always had what I called a little invisible bag

[00:22:46] of bolt-on applications.

[00:22:48] So they would be things like,

[00:22:50] we ought to read the Bible more,

[00:22:51] we ought to pray more,

[00:22:52] we ought to give more.

[00:22:53] And yeah, okay, we ought.

[00:22:55] But is that what this passage is saying?

[00:22:58] And of course, people switch off

[00:22:59] when they hear those routine things.

[00:23:02] But if this passage is making this point,

[00:23:06] then it's got power within it,

[00:23:08] if we can replicate that and relate it to our world,

[00:23:11] that will carry the truth through the mind to the heart,

[00:23:15] and then energize the will so that we begin to act on it

[00:23:21] and to be obedient to it.

[00:23:22] So I think that's the sort of areas I would look for

[00:23:25] in applying scripture.

[00:23:27] So when you say that it helps to get the context,

[00:23:30] do you mean the context of the biblical passage?

[00:23:33] Or do you mean the context of your present hearers?

[00:23:36] Well, I think we do need the context of our present hearers,

[00:23:40] but primarily I'm thinking about the context

[00:23:43] of the biblical passage.

[00:23:45] It's immediate context,

[00:23:46] what goes before and what comes after.

[00:23:49] And as you say,

[00:23:49] that's a great argument

[00:23:51] for consecutive expositor preaching,

[00:23:54] working your way through books of the Bible,

[00:23:56] which is the way I've always done it.

[00:23:58] And I think actually that

[00:23:59] that is the most nourishing

[00:24:01] way of doing expository preaching.

[00:24:03] So from that point of view,

[00:24:06] I think we're looking at how to build through it

[00:24:11] an increasing understanding of this book,

[00:24:14] how that relates to the whole biblical theology,

[00:24:17] and then, of course,

[00:24:19] the centrality of Christ in all of that,

[00:24:22] in his personal work,

[00:24:23] and how this book contributes

[00:24:25] and glorifies the Lord Jesus.

[00:24:28] Yeah, so you just mentioned biblical theology

[00:24:30] and the Christ-centered approach to the Bible.

[00:24:35] So I guess some people refer to that

[00:24:37] as the redemptive historical approach

[00:24:40] or hermeneutic of the Bible.

[00:24:42] I guess my question for you is,

[00:24:43] I've heard some people say

[00:24:45] that true expository preaching

[00:24:49] will not focus on

[00:24:52] redemptive historical interpretations.

[00:24:54] In other words,

[00:24:55] it won't focus on a biblical theology.

[00:24:57] It'll just focus on expositing that text.

[00:25:00] Whereas I've heard other people,

[00:25:02] and I would be myself on the side of saying,

[00:25:04] you aren't accurately expositing a text

[00:25:07] unless you're showing how it fits into the whole Bible.

[00:25:10] But do you have any thoughts on,

[00:25:12] when have you seen people

[00:25:13] perhaps try to shoehorn Jesus into passages?

[00:25:18] When have you seen it done well?

[00:25:20] I'm just curious.

[00:25:23] I think the problem is that

[00:25:25] I call it trampoline preaching,

[00:25:27] that people jump on the text

[00:25:30] and then bounce off to Christ

[00:25:32] as quickly as possible.

[00:25:33] You know, I mean,

[00:25:34] it is possible.

[00:25:36] Of course we want to have

[00:25:38] Christ-centered preaching

[00:25:39] because Him we proclaim.

[00:25:41] He is the center of all the scriptures.

[00:25:43] And of course,

[00:25:44] every sermon must preach Christ.

[00:25:45] But some of our brothers,

[00:25:47] I think,

[00:25:48] feel if I get,

[00:25:50] you know,

[00:25:50] I'll just use this text

[00:25:52] as a trampoline

[00:25:52] to get my way

[00:25:53] to the gospel.

[00:25:56] And somebody said,

[00:25:57] again to me the other day

[00:25:58] from a church

[00:25:59] where perhaps that's

[00:25:59] the common way of preaching,

[00:26:01] that we get a lot of the gospel.

[00:26:03] But he said,

[00:26:05] we're never sure

[00:26:05] if it's going to happen

[00:26:06] after five minutes

[00:26:07] or after 20 minutes,

[00:26:08] but we know it's going to happen.

[00:26:10] And it's almost as though

[00:26:12] everybody is inured to that

[00:26:15] because it's not done

[00:26:16] very creatively

[00:26:17] and there's not much sense

[00:26:20] of what it meant to them then

[00:26:22] in that situation

[00:26:24] when the scripture

[00:26:26] was originally written

[00:26:27] or spoken or whatever.

[00:26:28] So I do think

[00:26:30] you've got to go to the them then.

[00:26:31] You've got to let the Old Testament

[00:26:33] speak with its authentic voice.

[00:26:35] You've got to listen to it

[00:26:37] in their context,

[00:26:39] you know,

[00:26:40] what was going on

[00:26:41] when Isaiah said these things?

[00:26:42] What's he preaching into?

[00:26:45] And so on.

[00:26:46] It's not just an extract

[00:26:47] that's dropped down from nowhere.

[00:26:49] It's in a context.

[00:26:50] And the more we do context like that,

[00:26:53] the more I think we will see

[00:26:55] the glory of Christ revealed

[00:26:57] because at every point in scripture,

[00:27:00] that's the central message.

[00:27:02] So at every point

[00:27:03] will of course reveal

[00:27:04] different parts of that glory.

[00:27:06] So just to bounce

[00:27:07] to a simple gospel explanation,

[00:27:11] it's not so demanding

[00:27:12] on the preacher,

[00:27:13] but it's not so energizing

[00:27:15] in the congregation.

[00:27:16] They tend to have their radar screens

[00:27:19] at various points.

[00:27:21] Yeah.

[00:27:22] You use this phrase

[00:27:24] where you say

[00:27:24] that we ought to echo

[00:27:26] the Bible's tone.

[00:27:27] What does that mean?

[00:27:28] I think it means that

[00:27:30] we recognize that,

[00:27:32] you know,

[00:27:33] there are different

[00:27:35] appropriate ways

[00:27:37] of presenting truth

[00:27:39] in scripture.

[00:27:40] So there are,

[00:27:41] there is a sort of tender,

[00:27:43] pleading,

[00:27:44] affectionate tone,

[00:27:45] but there is also

[00:27:47] a fairly strong

[00:27:49] and,

[00:27:50] well,

[00:27:50] yes,

[00:27:50] warning tone

[00:27:52] about the dangers

[00:27:53] of disobedience

[00:27:55] and of apostasy

[00:27:56] and so on.

[00:27:57] And I think sometimes

[00:27:59] in our preaching,

[00:28:00] we tend to be a bit monotone.

[00:28:02] We don't try

[00:28:03] in our sermons,

[00:28:04] perhaps enough,

[00:28:05] to replicate

[00:28:06] the tone of the passage.

[00:28:09] Again,

[00:28:09] it's the Bible

[00:28:10] in the driving seat.

[00:28:11] So if that's really

[00:28:13] what's happening,

[00:28:14] then whatever the tone

[00:28:16] of the passage is,

[00:28:17] and there'll be a variety

[00:28:18] of different ones,

[00:28:19] sometimes it's a sort of

[00:28:20] ironic,

[00:28:21] questioning tone.

[00:28:23] Sometimes it's just

[00:28:24] a straight unpacking

[00:28:26] of a narrative

[00:28:26] to a dramatic conclusion.

[00:28:29] But whatever the passage

[00:28:31] is doing,

[00:28:31] we want to try

[00:28:32] and replicate that.

[00:28:34] And it doesn't mean

[00:28:35] that we act it.

[00:28:36] It's not as though

[00:28:36] we're taking on

[00:28:37] an actor's role,

[00:28:38] but it does mean

[00:28:40] that we want

[00:28:40] to make sure

[00:28:41] that the way

[00:28:41] we present that truth

[00:28:43] is in agreement

[00:28:45] with the way

[00:28:46] in which it's presented

[00:28:47] in the passage.

[00:28:48] And some of us

[00:28:49] are more gifted,

[00:28:51] perhaps,

[00:28:51] at the warning

[00:28:52] and the stirring

[00:28:54] people up.

[00:28:55] And some of us

[00:28:56] are more gifted

[00:28:57] in sort of placating

[00:28:59] and calming

[00:29:00] and being pastoral

[00:29:02] in the sense of,

[00:29:03] you know,

[00:29:04] meeting people

[00:29:05] at the points

[00:29:05] of their weaknesses

[00:29:06] and so on.

[00:29:07] And all of those

[00:29:09] things are valid,

[00:29:10] but we've got to try

[00:29:11] to develop

[00:29:12] the ability

[00:29:14] to reflect the tone

[00:29:16] of the original passage

[00:29:18] because that obviously

[00:29:20] will then help

[00:29:21] its transference

[00:29:23] to those

[00:29:23] who are listening

[00:29:24] to us.

[00:29:25] What would you say

[00:29:27] to somebody

[00:29:27] who says,

[00:29:28] I want to

[00:29:30] be an expository

[00:29:32] preacher

[00:29:32] because I think

[00:29:33] it's the right way

[00:29:34] to help people

[00:29:35] learn the Bible,

[00:29:36] but I'm afraid

[00:29:37] that if I do that,

[00:29:39] people would revolt

[00:29:40] and it would be

[00:29:41] just incredibly boring.

[00:29:42] What would you say?

[00:29:45] Yes,

[00:29:46] I've often,

[00:29:46] people often say to me,

[00:29:48] expository preaching

[00:29:49] is boring,

[00:29:50] but I say no,

[00:29:51] expository preachers

[00:29:53] can be boring.

[00:29:54] The preaching is,

[00:29:56] the exposition of scripture

[00:29:57] is never boring

[00:29:58] because it's the living,

[00:30:00] enduring word of God,

[00:30:02] but we can sometimes

[00:30:04] make it boring

[00:30:05] and I think

[00:30:06] that's due to

[00:30:07] lack of time

[00:30:08] in preparation

[00:30:08] or lack of sensitivity

[00:30:10] to where the congregation

[00:30:12] is.

[00:30:13] You know,

[00:30:13] if I was going

[00:30:14] into a church now

[00:30:15] that wasn't used

[00:30:15] to expository preaching,

[00:30:17] I wouldn't go

[00:30:18] beyond the usual

[00:30:20] length of time

[00:30:21] that they've had

[00:30:21] sermons in the past.

[00:30:23] Sometimes people

[00:30:25] come in

[00:30:25] with exposition

[00:30:26] and say,

[00:30:27] I want to do

[00:30:27] 30,

[00:30:28] 40 minutes,

[00:30:28] but in a church

[00:30:29] that,

[00:30:30] there are churches

[00:30:31] here in the UK

[00:30:31] that have only had

[00:30:32] 10 or 15 minutes

[00:30:33] and that seemed

[00:30:34] an eternity to them

[00:30:35] because it wasn't

[00:30:37] the Bible.

[00:30:38] But if you preach

[00:30:39] the Bible

[00:30:40] for 15 minutes

[00:30:41] to those people,

[00:30:42] they will gradually

[00:30:43] develop the appetite

[00:30:45] that wants a little bit

[00:30:46] more,

[00:30:47] 20 maybe,

[00:30:47] even 25.

[00:30:48] Who knows?

[00:30:49] It's not length

[00:30:50] in itself

[00:30:50] that's the right thing.

[00:30:52] But it's just

[00:30:53] getting the message

[00:30:53] across.

[00:30:54] And I've seen

[00:30:55] that happen

[00:30:55] in churches

[00:30:56] that I've been

[00:30:57] a part of

[00:30:58] where,

[00:30:59] and it's even

[00:30:59] happening here

[00:31:00] in the church

[00:31:01] where I am

[00:31:01] at the moment,

[00:31:02] that folks

[00:31:03] who've never

[00:31:04] really had

[00:31:04] the privilege

[00:31:05] of listening

[00:31:06] to the Bible

[00:31:07] being expanded,

[00:31:08] you know,

[00:31:09] now that there

[00:31:10] is a ministry,

[00:31:11] not mine,

[00:31:12] but a minister

[00:31:13] who is doing

[00:31:15] expository preaching,

[00:31:16] people who are

[00:31:17] coming alive.

[00:31:18] So I think we just

[00:31:19] have to get

[00:31:20] confidence back

[00:31:21] in the word,

[00:31:22] the word to do

[00:31:23] the work,

[00:31:24] and then seek

[00:31:25] to be workmen

[00:31:25] who don't need

[00:31:26] to be ashamed,

[00:31:27] who rightly

[00:31:27] handle the word

[00:31:28] of truth.

[00:31:29] And if we do

[00:31:30] that,

[00:31:30] independence on

[00:31:31] the spirit,

[00:31:32] and that's where

[00:31:33] prayer comes in,

[00:31:34] of course.

[00:31:34] So in doing

[00:31:36] that,

[00:31:36] we find that

[00:31:37] the exposition

[00:31:38] of scripture

[00:31:38] actually changes

[00:31:40] people,

[00:31:41] builds churches.

[00:31:42] churches.

[00:31:43] So I don't,

[00:31:44] you know,

[00:31:44] I think it's

[00:31:45] easy to think

[00:31:46] people will be

[00:31:47] bored,

[00:31:47] but they shouldn't

[00:31:49] be if we're

[00:31:49] doing the job

[00:31:50] properly.

[00:31:51] But we may

[00:31:51] have to make

[00:31:52] it shorter

[00:31:52] rather than

[00:31:53] longer.

[00:31:54] I know that

[00:31:56] a lot of

[00:31:56] people that

[00:31:56] I've talked

[00:31:57] to,

[00:31:57] they assume

[00:31:58] that expository

[00:31:59] preaching is

[00:31:59] essentially like

[00:32:00] a talking

[00:32:01] commentary,

[00:32:02] like you were

[00:32:03] saying,

[00:32:03] a running

[00:32:03] commentary.

[00:32:04] Here's some

[00:32:05] interesting

[00:32:06] information about

[00:32:07] this verse,

[00:32:07] here's some

[00:32:08] interesting

[00:32:08] information about

[00:32:09] that verse.

[00:32:09] Okay,

[00:32:10] we ran out

[00:32:10] of time and

[00:32:11] now we're

[00:32:11] done.

[00:32:12] When I've

[00:32:13] seen it done

[00:32:13] well,

[00:32:14] I would describe

[00:32:15] it as you

[00:32:17] are taking

[00:32:17] the point

[00:32:18] of what this

[00:32:19] section of

[00:32:21] this book

[00:32:21] is about

[00:32:22] or this

[00:32:23] chapter,

[00:32:24] and you are

[00:32:24] bringing it to

[00:32:25] bear with its

[00:32:26] full weight.

[00:32:27] You're unpacking

[00:32:29] it and helping

[00:32:30] people to see

[00:32:31] the majesty and

[00:32:32] bringing its

[00:32:32] full weight to

[00:32:33] bear upon people

[00:32:34] so that they

[00:32:34] cannot ignore

[00:32:36] it.

[00:32:36] So it becomes

[00:32:37] the most

[00:32:37] compelling thing

[00:32:38] they've ever

[00:32:39] heard.

[00:32:40] In other

[00:32:40] words,

[00:32:41] you're helping

[00:32:42] to reveal

[00:32:42] the beauty

[00:32:43] and the

[00:32:45] weight of

[00:32:45] the text

[00:32:46] itself as

[00:32:48] opposed to

[00:32:48] just simply

[00:32:49] reading over

[00:32:49] it and

[00:32:50] passing on.

[00:32:51] I agree

[00:32:52] with that.

[00:32:52] And I think

[00:32:53] a lot of

[00:32:53] it depends

[00:32:54] on our

[00:32:55] preparation.

[00:32:56] So,

[00:32:57] I mean,

[00:32:57] in the

[00:32:59] book I've

[00:32:59] talked about

[00:33:00] four stages

[00:33:02] of preparation.

[00:33:04] Exegesis is

[00:33:04] the first,

[00:33:05] obviously,

[00:33:06] sorting out

[00:33:06] what the text

[00:33:07] says.

[00:33:07] But then

[00:33:08] thinking about

[00:33:09] the meaning

[00:33:09] and significance

[00:33:10] of the text.

[00:33:11] So going

[00:33:12] from the

[00:33:13] what and

[00:33:13] the where

[00:33:14] and questions

[00:33:15] to the how

[00:33:16] and the why.

[00:33:17] And then I

[00:33:18] think the thing

[00:33:18] that we

[00:33:19] probably,

[00:33:20] and I'm as

[00:33:21] guilty as this

[00:33:22] as others

[00:33:22] for many years,

[00:33:24] the third

[00:33:25] thing is the

[00:33:25] structure of

[00:33:26] the sermon

[00:33:28] and thinking

[00:33:29] about how

[00:33:30] the weight

[00:33:30] of this

[00:33:30] text can be

[00:33:31] communicated

[00:33:32] communicated

[00:33:32] to the

[00:33:34] hearers.

[00:33:35] And the

[00:33:35] structure and

[00:33:36] strategy

[00:33:38] is, I think,

[00:33:39] a third

[00:33:40] element of

[00:33:40] the preparation,

[00:33:41] which involves

[00:33:42] the application,

[00:33:43] of course,

[00:33:44] and illustration

[00:33:44] of it and so

[00:33:45] on,

[00:33:45] and then writing

[00:33:46] up one's

[00:33:47] notes or

[00:33:47] however one

[00:33:48] prepares.

[00:33:49] But I think

[00:33:50] if people do

[00:33:51] those three

[00:33:52] things,

[00:33:53] particularly

[00:33:54] the exegesis,

[00:33:55] the explanation

[00:33:56] and the

[00:33:57] application,

[00:33:58] then there

[00:33:59] is much more

[00:34:00] likelihood that

[00:34:01] the weight of

[00:34:01] the text will

[00:34:02] be communicated

[00:34:03] and because

[00:34:04] it's the

[00:34:05] living word,

[00:34:06] it will have

[00:34:06] life and

[00:34:07] produce life.

[00:34:08] So, yeah,

[00:34:09] I think those

[00:34:10] are the,

[00:34:10] a lot of

[00:34:12] our failures

[00:34:12] are probably

[00:34:13] inadequate

[00:34:14] preparation in

[00:34:15] one of

[00:34:15] those areas.

[00:34:18] Yeah,

[00:34:18] that's nice

[00:34:18] that you give

[00:34:19] a kind of

[00:34:20] like roadmap

[00:34:21] for those

[00:34:22] who want to

[00:34:22] process when

[00:34:23] they're preparing

[00:34:24] because in

[00:34:25] my experience,

[00:34:27] a lot of

[00:34:27] people have

[00:34:27] said,

[00:34:28] I want to

[00:34:29] do this.

[00:34:29] I'm just not

[00:34:30] really sure

[00:34:30] how to

[00:34:31] start.

[00:34:31] I'm not

[00:34:31] sure what

[00:34:32] process I

[00:34:32] should follow.

[00:34:33] Do I

[00:34:34] just open

[00:34:34] up books

[00:34:35] and then

[00:34:35] just like

[00:34:36] convey

[00:34:36] information?

[00:34:37] Like,

[00:34:37] how do I

[00:34:38] actually do

[00:34:39] it?

[00:34:39] So,

[00:34:40] I think

[00:34:40] that's

[00:34:40] great that

[00:34:41] your book

[00:34:41] provides a

[00:34:42] roadmap for

[00:34:43] how to

[00:34:43] do that

[00:34:43] and how

[00:34:44] to prepare.

[00:34:45] Shifting

[00:34:45] gears slightly,

[00:34:46] what do

[00:34:47] you think

[00:34:47] are some

[00:34:47] of the

[00:34:48] contemporary

[00:34:48] challenges

[00:34:49] that

[00:34:50] preachers

[00:34:50] in our

[00:34:51] culture today

[00:34:51] face?

[00:34:54] Well,

[00:34:55] I think

[00:34:55] the congregation

[00:34:56] comes with

[00:34:57] all sorts

[00:34:58] of inbuilt

[00:35:00] misunderstandings

[00:35:01] from the

[00:35:02] culture about

[00:35:03] the realities

[00:35:04] of spiritual

[00:35:06] life.

[00:35:06] So,

[00:35:07] what I'm

[00:35:07] trying to

[00:35:08] say is

[00:35:08] that we

[00:35:08] tend to

[00:35:09] read the

[00:35:09] Bible

[00:35:10] through a

[00:35:11] filter of

[00:35:12] contemporary

[00:35:13] culture.

[00:35:14] And

[00:35:15] what we

[00:35:16] need to

[00:35:17] seek to

[00:35:17] do in

[00:35:17] our

[00:35:18] preaching

[00:35:18] is to

[00:35:19] critique

[00:35:19] the

[00:35:20] contemporary

[00:35:20] culture

[00:35:21] from the

[00:35:22] biblical

[00:35:22] foundation.

[00:35:24] So,

[00:35:24] I think

[00:35:25] the

[00:35:25] challenge

[00:35:25] is

[00:35:26] to

[00:35:27] be

[00:35:27] uncompromising

[00:35:29] in teaching

[00:35:29] what the

[00:35:29] Bible

[00:35:30] says

[00:35:30] and then

[00:35:31] to use

[00:35:31] that

[00:35:32] to show

[00:35:33] people

[00:35:33] where

[00:35:34] our

[00:35:34] thinking

[00:35:35] conditioned

[00:35:36] by the

[00:35:36] things

[00:35:37] that are

[00:35:37] 24-7

[00:35:38] impacting

[00:35:41] their lives

[00:35:42] and

[00:35:42] continually

[00:35:43] all the

[00:35:44] noise

[00:35:44] of the

[00:35:44] culture

[00:35:45] all around

[00:35:45] us

[00:35:46] and all

[00:35:46] its

[00:35:46] false

[00:35:47] ideas

[00:35:47] and so

[00:35:47] on.

[00:35:48] We've

[00:35:49] got

[00:35:49] half an

[00:35:50] hour

[00:35:50] on a

[00:35:51] Sunday

[00:35:51] morning

[00:35:51] to

[00:35:52] fight

[00:35:53] against

[00:35:53] that

[00:35:54] and

[00:35:54] therefore

[00:35:55] we

[00:35:55] need

[00:35:55] to

[00:35:56] be

[00:35:57] helping

[00:35:57] people

[00:35:58] to

[00:35:58] see

[00:35:58] look

[00:35:59] the

[00:35:59] Bible

[00:35:59] judges

[00:36:00] the

[00:36:00] culture

[00:36:01] and

[00:36:02] that's

[00:36:02] true

[00:36:02] of

[00:36:03] every

[00:36:03] culture

[00:36:03] of

[00:36:03] course

[00:36:04] and

[00:36:04] it's

[00:36:04] true

[00:36:04] even

[00:36:05] of

[00:36:05] our

[00:36:05] church

[00:36:05] cultures

[00:36:06] that

[00:36:06] they

[00:36:06] need

[00:36:07] to

[00:36:07] come

[00:36:07] under

[00:36:07] the

[00:36:08] authority

[00:36:08] of

[00:36:09] scripture

[00:36:09] and

[00:36:10] I

[00:36:10] think

[00:36:11] that's

[00:36:12] where

[00:36:12] fruitful

[00:36:13] application

[00:36:14] will

[00:36:14] help

[00:36:15] people

[00:36:15] to

[00:36:15] see

[00:36:16] this

[00:36:16] really

[00:36:17] makes

[00:36:17] a

[00:36:17] difference

[00:36:17] to

[00:36:18] life

[00:36:18] and

[00:36:19] I

[00:36:21] think

[00:36:21] but

[00:36:21] we

[00:36:22] start

[00:36:22] perhaps

[00:36:22] with

[00:36:23] people

[00:36:23] coming

[00:36:23] thinking

[00:36:24] okay

[00:36:24] interest

[00:36:25] me

[00:36:25] if

[00:36:25] you

[00:36:26] can

[00:36:27] you

[00:36:27] know

[00:36:27] and

[00:36:28] gradually

[00:36:29] it

[00:36:29] depends

[00:36:30] which

[00:36:30] church

[00:36:30] you're

[00:36:30] in

[00:36:31] if

[00:36:31] it's

[00:36:31] had

[00:36:31] a

[00:36:31] long

[00:36:32] tradition

[00:36:32] of

[00:36:32] biblical

[00:36:32] preaching

[00:36:33] you

[00:36:33] don't

[00:36:33] face

[00:36:34] that

[00:36:34] probably

[00:36:34] but

[00:36:35] in

[00:36:35] many

[00:36:36] churches

[00:36:36] in

[00:36:36] the

[00:36:36] UK

[00:36:37] which

[00:36:37] are

[00:36:37] just

[00:36:37] beginning

[00:36:38] to

[00:36:39] come

[00:36:39] alive

[00:36:39] a lot

[00:36:40] of

[00:36:40] people's

[00:36:41] attitude

[00:36:41] is

[00:36:42] okay

[00:36:42] sit

[00:36:43] down

[00:36:43] fold

[00:36:43] your

[00:36:47] as

[00:36:47] you

[00:36:47] open

[00:36:48] scripture

[00:36:48] you

[00:36:49] know

[00:36:49] in

[00:36:49] those

[00:36:50] churches

[00:36:50] that's

[00:36:51] what

[00:36:51] is

[00:36:51] reforming

[00:36:52] them

[00:36:52] and

[00:36:52] it

[00:36:52] is

[00:36:53] happening

[00:36:53] and

[00:36:54] it

[00:36:54] is

[00:36:54] great

[00:36:54] to

[00:36:55] see

[00:36:55] that

[00:36:55] you

[00:36:55] know

[00:36:55] that

[00:36:56] the

[00:36:56] word

[00:36:56] that

[00:36:57] we

[00:36:57] often

[00:36:57] said

[00:36:57] that

[00:36:58] the

[00:36:58] spirit

[00:36:58] of

[00:36:58] God

[00:36:58] takes

[00:36:59] the

[00:36:59] word

[00:36:59] of

[00:36:59] God

[00:36:59] to

[00:37:00] do

[00:37:00] the

[00:37:00] work

[00:37:00] of

[00:37:00] God

[00:37:00] and

[00:37:01] that

[00:37:02] is

[00:37:02] what

[00:37:02] is

[00:37:02] happening

[00:37:02] but

[00:37:03] it

[00:37:03] is

[00:37:04] a

[00:37:04] long

[00:37:04] term

[00:37:04] strategy

[00:37:05] it

[00:37:05] is

[00:37:06] an

[00:37:06] uphill

[00:37:06] battle

[00:37:06] there

[00:37:07] will

[00:37:07] be

[00:37:07] lots

[00:37:08] of

[00:37:08] counter

[00:37:09] fire

[00:37:09] as

[00:37:10] you

[00:37:10] do

[00:37:10] it

[00:37:10] but

[00:37:11] it

[00:37:12] is

[00:37:12] God's

[00:37:12] way

[00:37:12] isn't

[00:37:12] it

[00:37:25] and

[00:37:30] that

[00:37:30] they

[00:37:31] always

[00:37:31] post

[00:37:31] these

[00:37:32] statistics

[00:37:32] on

[00:37:33] pastoral

[00:37:33] burnout

[00:37:34] and

[00:37:34] pastors

[00:37:35] quitting

[00:37:35] and

[00:37:36] things

[00:37:36] like

[00:37:36] that

[00:37:37] and

[00:37:38] I

[00:37:38] think

[00:37:38] that's

[00:37:39] a

[00:37:39] real

[00:37:39] thing

[00:37:39] I've

[00:37:40] seen

[00:37:40] it

[00:37:40] with

[00:37:40] a lot

[00:37:40] of

[00:37:40] my

[00:37:40] friends

[00:37:41] so

[00:37:41] how

[00:37:42] would

[00:37:42] you

[00:37:42] encourage

[00:37:42] pastors

[00:37:43] in

[00:37:44] the

[00:37:44] area

[00:37:44] of

[00:37:45] perseverance

[00:37:47] well

[00:37:48] obviously

[00:37:48] in

[00:37:49] their

[00:37:49] own

[00:37:49] personal

[00:37:49] lives

[00:37:50] and

[00:37:51] in

[00:37:51] their

[00:37:51] relationship

[00:37:52] with

[00:37:52] the

[00:37:52] Lord

[00:37:52] persevering

[00:37:53] in

[00:37:53] that

[00:37:54] because

[00:37:54] that's

[00:37:55] what

[00:37:55] will

[00:37:55] keep

[00:37:55] us

[00:37:55] alive

[00:37:56] and

[00:37:56] fresh

[00:37:56] but

[00:37:57] also

[00:37:57] I

[00:37:58] think

[00:37:58] I

[00:38:02] pastors

[00:38:02] that

[00:38:03] you

[00:38:03] can

[00:38:03] relate

[00:38:04] to

[00:38:04] and

[00:38:05] spend

[00:38:05] some

[00:38:05] time

[00:38:06] with

[00:38:06] we've

[00:38:06] tried

[00:38:07] to

[00:38:07] start

[00:38:07] what

[00:38:08] we

[00:38:08] call

[00:38:08] preaching

[00:38:09] clubs

[00:38:09] really

[00:38:10] which

[00:38:10] is

[00:38:10] maybe

[00:38:11] five

[00:38:11] guys

[00:38:12] if

[00:38:12] they

[00:38:13] all

[00:38:13] are

[00:38:13] in

[00:38:13] the

[00:38:13] same

[00:38:13] town

[00:38:14] or

[00:38:14] the

[00:38:14] same

[00:38:14] area

[00:38:15] who

[00:38:15] can

[00:38:16] get

[00:38:16] together

[00:38:16] maybe

[00:38:16] once

[00:38:17] a

[00:38:17] month

[00:38:17] once

[00:38:18] every

[00:38:18] six

[00:38:18] weeks

[00:38:19] and

[00:38:19] have

[00:38:19] a

[00:38:20] long

[00:38:20] lunch

[00:38:21] time

[00:38:21] together

[00:38:21] somebody

[00:38:22] come

[00:38:22] and

[00:38:23] share

[00:38:23] what

[00:38:23] they've

[00:38:24] studied

[00:38:24] a

[00:38:25] sermon

[00:38:25] they've

[00:38:25] preached

[00:38:26] for

[00:38:26] others

[00:38:26] to

[00:38:27] listen

[00:38:27] to

[00:38:33] a

[00:38:34] little

[00:38:36] sort

[00:38:36] of

[00:38:36] mini

[00:38:36] fraternal

[00:38:37] really

[00:38:37] for

[00:38:38] a

[00:38:39] small

[00:38:39] group

[00:38:39] who

[00:38:39] get

[00:38:40] to

[00:38:40] know

[00:38:40] one

[00:38:40] another

[00:38:41] really

[00:38:41] well

[00:38:41] trust

[00:38:42] one

[00:38:42] another

[00:38:42] and

[00:38:43] encourage

[00:38:43] one

[00:38:44] another

[00:38:44] so

[00:38:44] that

[00:38:45] you're

[00:38:45] not

[00:38:45] on

[00:38:45] your

[00:38:45] own

[00:38:45] I

[00:38:46] think

[00:38:46] often

[00:38:47] the

[00:38:47] burnout

[00:38:48] is

[00:38:48] because

[00:38:48] individual

[00:38:49] pastors

[00:38:50] are

[00:38:51] isolated

[00:38:51] and

[00:38:52] even

[00:38:52] if

[00:38:52] you're

[00:38:52] not

[00:38:53] near

[00:38:53] them

[00:38:53] geographically

[00:38:54] there

[00:38:55] are

[00:38:55] things

[00:38:55] like

[00:38:55] Zoom

[00:38:56] and

[00:39:02] workshops

[00:39:02] I

[00:39:03] know

[00:39:03] that

[00:39:03] you

[00:39:03] run

[00:39:03] them

[00:39:03] as

[00:39:04] well

[00:39:04] Nick

[00:39:04] but

[00:39:04] we

[00:39:05] found

[00:39:05] that

[00:39:05] those

[00:39:05] are

[00:39:06] really

[00:39:06] absolutely

[00:39:07] strategic

[00:39:08] for

[00:39:08] keeping

[00:39:09] people

[00:39:09] encouraged

[00:39:10] and

[00:39:11] doing

[00:39:11] the

[00:39:11] work

[00:39:12] and

[00:39:12] on

[00:39:12] song

[00:39:12] and

[00:39:13] sharing

[00:39:13] together

[00:39:14] about

[00:39:14] what's

[00:39:15] happening

[00:39:15] so

[00:39:16] I

[00:39:16] think

[00:39:16] a

[00:39:17] lot

[00:39:17] of

[00:39:17] it

[00:39:17] is

[00:39:17] not

[00:39:18] flying

[00:39:19] solo

[00:39:19] all

[00:39:20] the

[00:39:20] time

[00:39:20] and

[00:39:21] the

[00:39:32] so

[00:39:32] that

[00:39:32] you

[00:39:32] don't

[00:39:33] have

[00:39:33] Saturday

[00:39:34] night

[00:39:34] fever

[00:39:34] and

[00:39:35] things

[00:39:35] like

[00:39:35] that

[00:39:35] when

[00:39:36] Sunday

[00:39:36] is

[00:39:36] on

[00:39:36] the

[00:39:37] horizon

[00:39:37] so

[00:39:38] those

[00:39:38] sorts

[00:39:38] of

[00:39:39] things

[00:39:39] important

[00:39:40] too

[00:39:40] I

[00:39:40] came

[00:39:41] across

[00:39:41] a

[00:39:41] good

[00:39:42] book

[00:39:42] that

[00:39:42] Crossway

[00:39:42] have

[00:39:42] recently

[00:39:43] published

[00:39:43] called

[00:39:44] Expositional

[00:39:45] Leadership

[00:39:45] I

[00:39:46] expect

[00:39:46] it's

[00:39:47] known

[00:39:47] in the

[00:39:47] States

[00:39:47] it's

[00:39:48] just

[00:39:48] beginning

[00:39:48] to

[00:39:49] get

[00:39:49] known

[00:39:49] here

[00:39:50] by

[00:39:51] Scott

[00:39:51] Pace

[00:39:51] and

[00:39:52] Jim

[00:39:52] Shaddix

[00:39:52] and

[00:39:53] that

[00:39:53] I

[00:39:53] thought

[00:39:53] had

[00:39:54] a

[00:39:54] lot

[00:39:54] of

[00:39:54] good

[00:39:54] things

[00:39:55] to

[00:39:55] say

[00:39:55] about

[00:39:56] how

[00:39:56] to

[00:39:57] keep

[00:39:57] doing

[00:39:57] that

[00:39:57] good

[00:39:58] work

[00:39:58] and

[00:39:59] encouraging

[00:39:59] others

[00:40:00] so

[00:40:01] yeah

[00:40:01] those

[00:40:02] sorts

[00:40:02] of

[00:40:02] things

[00:40:03] can

[00:40:03] be

[00:40:03] a

[00:40:03] real

[00:40:03] help

[00:40:04] yeah

[00:40:05] excellent

[00:40:05] your

[00:40:06] book

[00:40:06] has

[00:40:07] just

[00:40:07] come

[00:40:07] out

[00:40:08] from

[00:40:08] Crossway

[00:40:09] it's

[00:40:10] called

[00:40:10] Proclaiming

[00:40:11] the

[00:40:11] Word

[00:40:11] Principles

[00:40:12] and

[00:40:12] Practices

[00:40:13] for

[00:40:13] Expository

[00:40:14] Preaching

[00:40:14] I would

[00:40:15] encourage

[00:40:15] everybody

[00:40:16] who's

[00:40:16] interested

[00:40:16] in

[00:40:17] growing

[00:40:17] in

[00:40:18] that

[00:40:18] or

[00:40:18] maybe

[00:40:18] starting

[00:40:19] out

[00:40:19] in

[00:40:20] that

[00:40:20] to

[00:40:20] check

[00:40:20] it

[00:40:20] out

[00:40:21] so

[00:40:21] again

[00:40:21] Proclaiming

[00:40:22] the

[00:40:22] Word

[00:40:22] available

[00:40:22] through

[00:40:27] the

[00:40:31] thanks

[00:40:32] for

[00:40:32] listening

[00:40:32] to

[00:40:32] this

[00:40:33] episode

[00:40:33] of

[00:40:33] Theology

[00:40:34] for

[00:40:34] the

[00:40:34] People

[00:40:34] this

[00:40:35] fall

[00:40:35] I'm

[00:40:36] posting

[00:40:36] semi-regularly

[00:40:37] some

[00:40:37] bonus

[00:40:38] episodes

[00:40:38] so

[00:40:39] make

[00:40:39] sure

[00:40:39] to

[00:40:39] subscribe

[00:40:40] to

[00:40:40] the

[00:40:40] podcast

[00:40:43] if

[00:40:56] you

[00:40:57] check

[00:40:57] check

[00:40:57] that

[00:40:57] episode

[00:40:58] if

[00:40:58] you

[00:40:58] haven't

[00:40:58] yet

[00:40:58] it

[00:40:59] was

[00:40:59] called

[00:40:59] The

[00:40:59] Role

[00:41:00] of

[00:41:00] Beauty

[00:41:00] in

[00:41:00] Theology

[00:41:01] I'll

[00:41:02] also

[00:41:02] be

[00:41:02] doing

[00:41:02] an

[00:41:03] upcoming

[00:41:03] series

[00:41:03] looking

[00:41:04] at

[00:41:05] the

[00:41:05] four

[00:41:06] big

[00:41:06] ecumenical

[00:41:07] councils

[00:41:07] we looked

[00:41:08] at

[00:41:27] the

[00:41:27] first

[00:41:27] week

[00:41:28] of

[00:41:28] April

[00:41:28] in

[00:41:29] 2025

[00:41:29] it

[00:41:30] will

[00:41:30] be

[00:41:30] at

[00:41:30] our

[00:41:31] church

[00:41:31] Whitefields

[00:41:31] Community

[00:41:32] Church

[00:41:32] here

[00:41:32] in

[00:41:32] Colorado

[00:41:33] we'd

[00:41:34] love

[00:41:34] to

[00:41:34] have

[00:41:34] you

[00:41:34] join

[00:41:34] us

[00:41:35] for

[00:41:35] that

[00:41:35] if

[00:41:35] you'd

[00:41:35] like

[00:41:36] to

[00:41:36] grow

[00:41:36] in

[00:41:36] the

[00:41:36] area

[00:41:37] of

[00:41:37] expository

[00:41:38] Bible

[00:41:38] teaching

[00:41:39] Theology

[00:41:40] for

[00:41:40] the

[00:41:40] people

[00:41:40] is

[00:41:40] a

[00:41:41] listener

[00:41:41] supported

[00:41:41] program

[00:41:42] if

[00:41:42] you

[00:41:43] have

[00:41:43] enjoyed

[00:41:43] or

[00:41:44] been

[00:41:44] encouraged

[00:41:44] by

[00:41:44] this

[00:41:45] content

[00:41:45] please

[00:41:45] consider

[00:41:46] sharing

[00:41:46] it

[00:41:46] with

[00:41:46] others

[00:41:47] and

[00:41:47] leaving

[00:41:47] a

[00:41:47] review

[00:41:48] on

[00:41:48] either

[00:41:49] Apple

[00:41:49] Podcasts

[00:41:50] or

[00:41:50] Spotify

[00:41:51] if

[00:41:51] you'd

[00:41:52] like

[00:41:52] to

[00:41:52] support

[00:41:52] this

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[00:41:53] financially

[00:41:53] there's

[00:41:54] a link

[00:41:54] in

[00:41:54] the

[00:41:54] show

[00:41:54] notes

[00:41:55] where

[00:41:55] you

[00:41:55] can

[00:41:55] make

[00:41:55] a

[00:41:56] donation

[00:41:56] to

[00:41:56] support

[00:41:57] the

[00:41:57] show

[00:41:57] until

[00:41:58] next

[00:41:58] time

[00:41:58] thanks

[00:41:59] for

[00:41:59] listening

[00:41:59] and

[00:41:59] God

[00:42:00] bless