Theological Anthropology: What is It, and How Does It Shape Our Understanding of Ourselves & Others? - with Michael Payne

[00:00:02] This idea of theological biblical anthropology is who chooses the identity? Is that God?

[00:00:09] Or am I doing that? Has God defined that? Has God set out parameters for that? Or do I set out those parameters?

[00:00:17] So that's a very important question to ask.

[00:00:20] Do you know what sex robots, racism and gender identity all have in common?

[00:00:28] In addition to all being topics that are discussed in this episode of Theology for the People,

[00:00:33] what these things all have in common is that they are related to the topic of theological or biblical anthropology.

[00:00:41] My guest in this episode is Michael Payne. Mike is the worship pastor at Whitefields Community Church

[00:00:47] and he is a graduate student at Western Seminary where he's pursuing a master's in theology.

[00:00:53] In this episode we talk about what biblical anthropology is, how it shapes the way we understand ourselves and others

[00:01:00] and why our view of anthropology shapes the way we live and interact in the world.

[00:01:05] I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I'll be back at the end with some final words.

[00:01:12] Mike, thanks for being a guest on Theology for the People again.

[00:01:15] Oh, thank you. I appreciate you having me once again.

[00:01:18] Yeah, you and I, as first season it was like a lot of you and me.

[00:01:23] Yeah.

[00:01:24] And then...

[00:01:24] You found a lot more famous people.

[00:01:26] You've been on less.

[00:01:28] People like wrote books and things like that. I haven't written a lot of books.

[00:01:31] You've written some stuff.

[00:01:32] So tell our listeners like what's new in your world since they heard you last?

[00:01:39] Well, I'm working my way through master's degree halfway through my second year and some really good stuff.

[00:01:47] So yeah, really enjoying it.

[00:01:50] Kind of rough doing it with a full time job.

[00:01:52] But you know, you make it work.

[00:01:55] And yeah, I've really enjoyed diving into these things, the books we've been reading

[00:02:00] and exploring these authors that I've heard about.

[00:02:03] But now I've got to dive into their content and really kind of wrestle with a lot of important foundational theological topics that form.

[00:02:13] These are the lenses through which all of our decisions on who God is, where we're going and what we're doing here and what the Bible is.

[00:02:21] And so...

[00:02:21] What would you say to somebody who says, I don't know, man, what's the point of going to seminary?

[00:02:26] Seems kind of like, like what's even the point?

[00:02:29] Like, what do you get out of it?

[00:02:32] I would say if you have the opportunity, go for it.

[00:02:36] Yeah, I think theology, we're all studying theology.

[00:02:41] So I don't care if you're doing it on the internet with your favorite YouTuber or you reading a Bible at home or you go to seminary.

[00:02:49] I think we're all studying theology in some way.

[00:02:52] And I think if you are serious about it, you want to be in the ministry, I think going to seminary in some capacity is great.

[00:03:03] I think the opportunities...

[00:03:04] For me this was like, I'm kind of the quintessential, I hated higher education.

[00:03:10] I was done with high school.

[00:03:12] I never wanted to go to...

[00:03:13] I always say I met, to me, dumb people that went to college.

[00:03:16] But I kind of felt like this is something the Lord said, hey, you need to go do this.

[00:03:21] And whatever the Lord wants to use it, how He wants to use it is up to Him.

[00:03:26] But I think, I will say this, I will say that I'm glad I've done it at this part of my life.

[00:03:34] I think being...

[00:03:36] I've been in full-time ministry like 25 years now reading and studying the Bible, reading through the Bible like multiple times.

[00:03:44] Like 10 times now, 10, 12 times.

[00:03:46] I've read through the Bible.

[00:03:48] I think coming at a lot of these subjects and topics and things like that,

[00:03:53] especially controversial issues with that whole backlog of just reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation,

[00:04:01] Genesis to Revelation, studying it, going through book by book, teaching it,

[00:04:06] and kind of wrestling with those things just on my own, reading commentaries and books on my own.

[00:04:12] I think it's really helped me kind of bring that big 30,000-foot view to a lot of these things.

[00:04:19] I think if you don't do that, you kind of jump into it,

[00:04:23] not having a knowledge of the Bible from beginning to end.

[00:04:27] Like I'm not saying I know every word of it, but over time you read it that many times through.

[00:04:33] You start to understand patterns and things like that.

[00:04:37] You don't get tripped over because they fight in seminary.

[00:04:42] They fight over every single word in the Bible.

[00:04:45] And you can get tripped up, you can get off into some of the weeds here and off into here and off to...

[00:04:50] And then you see that happen all the time.

[00:04:52] But I think for me that's been super helpful to do that way.

[00:04:57] Yeah, so here today we're talking about theological anthropology.

[00:05:02] And obviously anthropology literally means the study of humankind or study of man or study of humanity.

[00:05:10] So what is unique about theological anthropology?

[00:05:15] Well, I think theological anthropology says what does the Bible say about how we got here,

[00:05:23] why we're here and where we're going, and is there life after death?

[00:05:29] Those kind of essential questions I think that every philosopher,

[00:05:34] since philosophy has been a thing, has tried to answer.

[00:05:37] And this is the Bible's way of saying, hey, these are the answers to those questions.

[00:05:43] Yeah, so in a way it's kind of like a systematic approach to studying who are we,

[00:05:51] why are we here, where are we going, what is the problem,

[00:05:54] those kind of big questions of existence and life.

[00:05:58] But they matter a lot.

[00:05:59] So just introduce us to the topic, like what are the things that people should know?

[00:06:05] What are the basics of biblical anthropology and then we'll go from there?

[00:06:11] Well, I would say again creation, so how did we get here?

[00:06:16] So what was the process by which humankind came to the earth?

[00:06:21] So creation I think would be essential.

[00:06:24] What is our human nature?

[00:06:25] Like who are we as human beings?

[00:06:27] What is that?

[00:06:29] The soul, the relationship with the body and spirit and our freedoms,

[00:06:33] our responsibilities, morality.

[00:06:36] What is human sinfulness?

[00:06:38] Consequences of sin, those kind of things I would say.

[00:06:41] Yeah, and again like where we're going, the ultimate destiny, eschatology.

[00:06:46] What is going to happen to us at the end times?

[00:06:49] Is Jesus going to return?

[00:06:50] When is he going to return?

[00:06:52] How does that affect us about what we are doing on earth and how we're going about living?

[00:06:57] And then of course ethics, like how are we to live in this time as human beings?

[00:07:02] What is that standard?

[00:07:03] Where does that standard come from?

[00:07:05] How do we walk in there?

[00:07:07] How do we apply that in our lives and how do we see other humans in light of those ethics?

[00:07:13] And I think that plays, that deals with a lot of current issues.

[00:07:18] Yeah, and it deals with like okay also like who are we in relation to other people?

[00:07:22] I guess that gets into a little bit of, it's related to ethics,

[00:07:25] but maybe there's a relational aspect.

[00:07:27] Well, human, I would say that very much creation.

[00:07:31] Like where did we come from?

[00:07:32] Like it says in Genesis chapter 2, I think that Eve was the mother of all mankind.

[00:07:37] Like if you believe that then everybody on this planet is my brother and my sister.

[00:07:43] We all come from the same place, cultural, ethnicity, language.

[00:07:48] These are not barriers for me at all because we all come from the same seed.

[00:07:54] Yeah, so it has very much like implications for modern issues.

[00:08:00] Like you're saying like race issues?

[00:08:02] How can I look down on somebody else or even feel like somebody else is more superior to me in a sense

[00:08:08] because we all come from the same place.

[00:08:11] I mean and that speaks to the idea of creation

[00:08:14] and then of course that flows into ethics, morality and all those kind of things.

[00:08:18] Yeah, and of course like the big one right now is gender identity

[00:08:22] and that's also an aspect of anthropology.

[00:08:25] Oh, I would say that's probably the pressing question of our day is who am I?

[00:08:33] And I think for the most part those that are pushing gay and trans identity things

[00:08:40] and jumping into that already have kind of one in public opinion that definition

[00:08:47] the semantic war if you will as to what identity is and who gets to choose what that identity is.

[00:08:55] And I think that's key to this idea of theological biblical anthropology is

[00:09:00] who chooses the identity?

[00:09:02] Is that God or am I doing that?

[00:09:05] Has God defined that?

[00:09:07] Has God set up parameters for that?

[00:09:09] Or do I set out those parameters?

[00:09:11] So that's a very important question to ask, yeah.

[00:09:15] And so the root of theological anthropology or biblical anthropology begins

[00:09:19] in the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible, the book of Genesis.

[00:09:24] And remind us what it says and then let's talk about what it means.

[00:09:28] Well it's Genesis chapter 1 verse 26 and 27 says then God said let's make man in our image

[00:09:36] after our likeness and let them have dominion of the efficiency of the birds in the heavens

[00:09:42] and livestock. And then 27 so God created man in his own image in the image of God he created them.

[00:09:48] And it keeps going on a verse chapter 2 as well talking about the idea of putting man to work

[00:09:54] and so kind of giving dominion, giving him purpose.

[00:09:58] And then of course the very first beginning like where did we come from?

[00:10:02] Who who were created in the likeness of that kind of sets the tone for all of it.

[00:10:07] So what does it mean to be created in the image of God and how does that

[00:10:11] shape our understanding of human nature?

[00:10:15] Well being created in the image of God means that we are not our own in a sense that we've not,

[00:10:22] we're not the ones that are in control of how humanity was. It's something outside of us.

[00:10:29] And so we take our cues, we take our characteristics from almost as a son to a father,

[00:10:37] a daughter to a father that we take on the characteristics of that family. We're taking our,

[00:10:44] the father is the one that is giving us the law, the father's one is telling us who we are

[00:10:50] and where we're going and those kind of things because we were not, I mean I want to say

[00:10:56] trying to think through that one through. But yeah basically the idea is that we're

[00:11:00] not the ones that are driving the car. Dad is driving the car in a sense.

[00:11:04] And God is the one who's created us in his image and because of that he has given us purpose

[00:11:09] and it's for his good pleasure and for his glory that we've been brought here.

[00:11:14] And so I guess that's the kind of beginning place of all of that.

[00:11:18] So one of the interesting things about Genesis one through 11, it's often called prehistory.

[00:11:24] In a way I mean prehistory, it is historical so it's not really fair to call it prehistory,

[00:11:28] but I guess the point of calling it that is to say this is the foundational story of why the world

[00:11:35] is the way it is. So what is wrong with us as human beings? That's a part of biblical anthropology.

[00:11:41] What is wrong with us? And like you said if we have one mother for all people, well then

[00:11:46] the thing that's fundamentally wrong with me is also the thing that's fundamentally wrong with

[00:11:50] a person on a different continent or across the street. So we'll talk about that too.

[00:11:57] But here's an interesting thing like it's been said a lot and I really agree with it that

[00:12:02] Genesis one through 11, just like in any story, the things that you, the details that you tell

[00:12:07] in the way that you tell them is didactic meaning that it's you choose those details

[00:12:13] and those focus areas, foci. The reason I choose those is because I'm trying to make a point

[00:12:20] and there's a teleology to it. There's a reason why I'm telling you those details and not other

[00:12:26] details, leaving certain things out and telling other things. That's certainly the case in Genesis

[00:12:31] one through 11. For example in chapter five it essentially skips over 1500 years of human history

[00:12:37] and only focuses on one guy who walked with God and went to heaven and that says a lot right

[00:12:42] there. But my point is this, it's telling us about the origins of a lot of things, including

[00:12:48] everything from industry, metallurgy, music, those sorts of things, cities. It tells us the

[00:12:55] origins of the differences in languages. It tells us about the flood and all of these,

[00:13:01] the judgment of God that took place during that. But another thing it tells us is like

[00:13:06] the creation of the world but the way that it tells us about it is intentionally to challenge

[00:13:12] and contradict many other origin stories which existed at this time either in oral form and

[00:13:21] in some cases in written form. Let's talk about that. One of the ways it does that,

[00:13:28] of course, is the creation of the world whereas ancient Mesopotamian stories of the creation of

[00:13:33] the world essentially said that the world came about through a war and the world is essentially

[00:13:39] a byproduct of chaos and of warring factions. Human beings then are created as part of this world

[00:13:46] but either our lives really have no true purpose or we're created by the gods to serve on the

[00:13:56] earth, basically do the dirty work on the earth that they don't want to do. And in contradiction

[00:14:01] to that what we have is a biblical story that comes about and says God, the world is not

[00:14:06] the result of chaos, it's a result of a loving, caring, thoughtful God who sings creation into

[00:14:13] existence and loves it. And human beings then are created in this image and that phrase creating

[00:14:20] the image of God is often seen as a challenge to the Near East and ancient mentality that

[00:14:28] when they would build an idol, that idol was the image of their God. So in many cases they

[00:14:33] didn't believe that the idol was in fact the God but that it bore the image of their God,

[00:14:38] therefore they would worship that idol. Now obviously we don't worship human beings and

[00:14:42] we're forbidden from doing that biblically but this idea that we are living, breathing, walking

[00:14:49] bearers of God's image, that is unique to biblical anthropology.

[00:14:55] Yeah no I totally agree with that. I mean I think I totally agree with the idea as well

[00:15:01] that you don't approach Genesis the beginning of humankind and the creation story purely from

[00:15:09] historical perspective primarily. I think that's what trips up people a lot. Right so we might say

[00:15:15] it's historical but its primary intent is not to tell a historical story as much as to tell

[00:15:21] a biblical anthropology, it's the origins of mankind and I think what's important to even

[00:15:28] lay a foundation for the creation of man is understanding God and I think one of the greatest

[00:15:35] pictures, I think this was kind of the Trinitarian theology comes into play is understanding what

[00:15:41] says we make, let's make in our, make man in our image kind of the first introduction of the

[00:15:49] Triune God and the idea that I, Harold Best is one of my favorite authors, he uses this idea

[00:15:56] pouring into and you have the Trinity in perfect harmony with one another, the Father, Son,

[00:16:02] Holy Spirit pouring into each other, perfect love and it's just like this perfect thing and then

[00:16:09] what happens is they pour into mankind and they're sharing with us something that's already

[00:16:16] happening within them with this perfect relationship. They then pour into us and it begins this idea

[00:16:25] because I mean I think it's you're like why did God create us? Well I'm not, I can't really give a

[00:16:30] definite answer of why that's, that's in God's, that's in the sovereignty of God and in God's

[00:16:36] mind only but we as you said like the ancient Mesopotamian and Babylonian ideas of creation

[00:16:45] was creating servants these almighty beings creating servants to serve at their pleasure

[00:16:51] and to do what they didn't want to do, they were lazy but the picture we have in the Bible is this

[00:16:58] amazing God in his Triune nature full of love and perfect relationship and then

[00:17:07] wanting to share that in some form and he does that through mankind and pouring into mankind

[00:17:14] and that's kind of I love the idea of that because that's the beginning of mankind,

[00:17:17] the beginning of mankind is love of God and it's not created, I mean I think if there's

[00:17:25] any foundation we were created in love he sung us into, there was joyful singing when we were

[00:17:31] created and everything you see through scripture even in our redemption for the joy that was set

[00:17:36] before him we see Jesus. I think that's important for people to understand that the beginning

[00:17:41] of mankind the genesis, the anthropology and all of that it begins on a foundation of love

[00:17:47] and that's important to remember. Yeah so even right there at the beginning of the Bible when

[00:17:55] it starts to lay out okay obviously it says some things about who God is but then it switches

[00:17:59] talking about who we are right? So it says that he created us in his image male and female he

[00:18:06] created us so I mean right there is a statement of identity and anthropology that has to do with

[00:18:14] gender and sex differentiation and I think that that's very significant. I mean there's really

[00:18:21] you really got to really try hard to find a workaround for that if you don't want to accept it.

[00:18:27] Oh yeah I completely agree I think that's one of the key aspects you have the idea of

[00:18:34] marriage your idea of man and woman you have the idea of procreation that are all being introduced to

[00:18:40] us here in the first few chapters and these are essential aspects of humanity the flourishing

[00:18:46] of humanity and for God's glory and purposes and for his worship and these kind of things

[00:18:53] it's all part of his creative process and so those I think those are very important as we're

[00:18:59] just being introduced to who humankind is and immediately we have man and woman marriage procreation

[00:19:07] and work and I think these are very important aspects of biblical anthropology that set the

[00:19:12] foundation then for what happens now of course you see corruption in all those things we've

[00:19:17] seen corruption in the work thing we see corruption sin but as man decides they want to be their

[00:19:24] own gods and they want to do things they want to define their identity and God says

[00:19:30] what was Satan's question like did God really say you would die and so right there from the

[00:19:36] beginning the idea that you can bring in the driver's seat of who you are and what you should

[00:19:42] know and what you shouldn't know and what you should be that's introduced to us right

[00:19:46] there in the beginning so we have the the pause of aspects but then we also have the

[00:19:49] corruption of that given to us there in the first few chapters yeah and so we're told there that God

[00:19:55] created us and he said it is very good there's only part of creation about which he said it's

[00:20:01] very good so in a way it's an exception to the rest of everything else he created was good

[00:20:07] this is very good and yet then it gets corrupted in chapter three which is also an

[00:20:13] essential part of understanding who we are as human beings what's the problem with us

[00:20:18] and so maybe talk about that a little bit so we're creating the image of God

[00:20:22] what does that mean and then what does it mean that we are fallen which parts of us are fallen

[00:20:28] are we all fallen are there still aspects of goodness in us what does that mean

[00:20:35] well to to answer the first I think being created an image of God what does that mean for

[00:20:41] us I think that means that that we're called for a purpose to that God's created us for

[00:20:48] for his good pleasure and his glory not in the sense of of servanthood but again to share in

[00:20:54] that divine relationship that doesn't make us divine that means that God has called us into

[00:21:00] that divine relationship and what he he had given us to gave in the Garden of Eden a place to

[00:21:07] live that out to work that out to flourish to procreate and to to to be humankind that he had

[00:21:13] called us to now what was the ultimate purpose of that I'm not sure but yeah it's relationship I

[00:21:20] think well relationship is the ultimate of what God wanted with us and we have that in the cool

[00:21:25] of the night God walked with with Adam and we have this idea that there was this close

[00:21:31] relationship and I think God created us for a relationship and we see it in our own in

[00:21:35] relationship of humankind it's one of the most important things that we have as humankind is

[00:21:40] relationship with one another so well let's talk about the purpose I mean because I think that the

[00:21:45] Bible the purpose of us as human beings is also a significant aspect of human anthropology so

[00:21:51] you mentioned relationship with God that's part of the purpose now one of the questions that

[00:21:55] sometimes comes up is then why did God create us and we were talking about this a minute ago

[00:22:00] that obviously you were worship leader and as a worship leader there's this song you're telling me

[00:22:06] about it well I was just thinking through I mean this is probably going to cause some issues with

[00:22:10] your now my listeners can handle it yeah they think they can yeah there's this a song called

[00:22:15] what a beautiful name it is and this is kind of what happens when you go to the seminary

[00:22:20] you're you're dissecting every song you sing and I think that's important I mean as a worship

[00:22:25] leader you control a significant part of the the service and so you want to make sure that whatever

[00:22:34] you're singing is Christ centered gospel centered and it is based in theology so these things are

[00:22:40] important and so there's this great song I mean the words are great what a beautiful name it is

[00:22:46] and starts out really well John chapter one you were the word in the beginning one with

[00:22:51] God and it goes through and then gets the second verse and says you didn't want heaven without us

[00:22:56] and so Jesus you brought heaven down and I get I get I understand kind of what the authors are

[00:23:05] going for but it does create confusion like so what is you did not want heaven without us mean

[00:23:12] what was was God missing something that's why he created us was God lonely that's why he

[00:23:17] created us is heaven missing us like is there like was there a mistaking creation like so it starts to

[00:23:26] yeah is God lacking something right there's something lacking his nature that that Jesus had to

[00:23:32] die on a cross for to make complete and and I and it just kind of asked and I'm not saying

[00:23:39] you shouldn't sing the song on Sunday mornings I'm just saying when you start thinking through

[00:23:44] like these kind of questions about biblical anthropology you're like well maybe it could have been a

[00:23:48] better way of saying that because I understand what you want to say but maybe you didn't get your

[00:23:54] point across succinctly enough it's just and I think me it's like speaking to that love of God

[00:24:00] like the relationship that God has with us and it's our human way of when we say we miss somebody

[00:24:07] that means that hey I a part of me is gone and and in a sense in our human thinking we can think of

[00:24:16] when we're separated from God in a sense God would say well part of me is missing but in

[00:24:23] his sovereignty in God's nature that is not true at all but it's a way for us to express it

[00:24:28] in sense for us to have an emotional connection and maybe express that verbally but so yeah it's

[00:24:34] just confusion that like what we what we created for to be in heaven and on earth and working and

[00:24:40] and things like that and one of the interesting things I had to do a study on

[00:24:44] on worship and I did this whole deep dive into what worship is going to look like in the future

[00:24:50] like what's going to happen when Christ returns what what is the things that are going to pass

[00:24:55] away and what's going to remain well one thing's going to remain is going to be the worship of

[00:25:00] God but we always had this idea of the clouds playing our mandolins or our harps and stuff like

[00:25:08] that or the thought of like we're going to be bowing at the throne for eternity like and I don't

[00:25:15] want to diminish that at all I think being in the presence of God is going to exact a certain

[00:25:20] kind of awe and on us that we are going to be completely overcoming that is going to be our

[00:25:27] response but if you and we don't want to take away from that and that's what we see in scripture any

[00:25:32] kind of coming into the presence of God exacts a certain response is flat on your face and the awe

[00:25:37] and overwhelmingness of God's glory but what what what I kind of got into is that God is going to

[00:25:44] again bring us back to this ideal thing of what happened here in Eden we're going to have a new

[00:25:50] heavens and a new earth place a relationship a relationship with God place a relationship

[00:25:55] with one another working and serving along that singing songs of glory and it's kind of that idea again

[00:26:03] that comes back to the purpose relationship with God and that and that's what God's calling us to

[00:26:09] then now and in the future yeah I'm teaching through Isaiah right now for a class for our church

[00:26:16] it's just a six-week class and I thought that I was pretty familiar with the book of Isaiah

[00:26:22] but just studying through it this time I'm like realizing some stuff I didn't

[00:26:27] perhaps emphasize I mean it's not like totally new but it is like wow it's really sticking out to me

[00:26:32] and one of the things that comes out through Isaiah is that Isaiah in a way tells the whole

[00:26:38] story of the Bible and has all the elements of the rest of the biblical narrative are in it

[00:26:44] so talks about the ideal right what God wants from people how God has created and brought

[00:26:49] people up the problem of sin and then what God is going to do about it and then where he's

[00:26:55] ultimately taking us but I guess that point of purpose was the purpose of humanity and

[00:27:01] the big thing he keeps saying it's like a cyclical model throughout Isaiah is that he says that

[00:27:07] what's going to happen in the final days he will establish Zion on the highest of hills

[00:27:12] Zion like you said is the restoration of Eden or might you might even say

[00:27:16] just as there will be a new Exodus to a new Eden and there will be the fulfillment of what Eden

[00:27:22] would have been it's Zion no longer a garden but now a city city and and Zion of course

[00:27:29] interchangeable with Jerusalem but it is a theological concept of God's reign

[00:27:35] that Jerusalem is meant to represent right the city of Shalom the city of peace or harmony

[00:27:41] and the thing that comes about it as a result of is that this phrase keeps being used over and over

[00:27:46] that the glory of the Lord will fill the earth and we even see on chapter six right holy holy holy

[00:27:53] is the Lord God Almighty and says the whole earth is filled with his glory well in a way

[00:27:58] that is not yet true in the prophecy of Isaiah at that point but it is the trajectory to

[00:28:04] which everything is moving that the whole earth will be filled with his glory and human beings

[00:28:09] will serve that purpose of his glory and bringing him glory yeah so I mean okay just to wrap that

[00:28:17] section up the idea is that God didn't need us he's perfectly good on his own perfectly fine and

[00:28:25] not lacking anything but he created us in love because he wanted to just his sovereignty his

[00:28:32] good pleasure yeah and but I think that's important that's an important distinction from

[00:28:38] other religions other creation stories is that the foundation of God's creation is love

[00:28:44] and bringing us to that perfect relationship of love that that he that they the triune God

[00:28:50] enjoys in themselves and I I love that picture and diving into that just kind of opens up your

[00:28:57] I the world to the how the rest of the Bible comes together yeah yeah and that our ultimate

[00:29:03] purpose is to know God and bring him glory bring him glory yeah and then Jesus even talks about how

[00:29:09] God has brought glory fruit which actually is an interesting in John 15 he says that by this the

[00:29:15] father is glorified that you bear fruit and fruit that lasts and it's interesting that whole

[00:29:20] passage in John 15 is an allusion to a passage from Isaiah chapter five the song of the garden

[00:29:27] the maker goes out he has dug a garden planted the garden he says the garden is my people and

[00:29:33] he says but the only thing I found when I went to find fruit was wild grapes and so what am I going

[00:29:38] to do and he talks about how he's going to cleanse it etc and there will be a new branch

[00:29:43] which comes out of the stump of of Israel and that new branch which is also called the Holy Seed

[00:29:50] he's the Messiah Jesus and by being connected to that branch we as he's the vine we're the

[00:29:58] branches we bear good fruit and that's the way because on our own we can do nothing it's actually

[00:30:04] quite amazing yeah how that all ties together okay so what are some of the implications of being

[00:30:10] created in the image of God let's talk about for example human value well yeah so human value

[00:30:18] that that's probably one of one of the most important is that all men are created equal

[00:30:23] and and I think what I think that's reiterated and even further emphasized when Jesus comes and says

[00:30:32] for God so love the world no distinction and we and then in revelation every tribe every tongue

[00:30:38] every nation is is there we see that through that the value of humankind is equal in the eyes of

[00:30:46] God and and and it's something that should be upheld by his image bearers we are called to be image

[00:30:54] bears and so we are upholding in a sense the ethics and morality of the one who has given us life

[00:31:01] and so that means that we value all human in and that speaks to abortion one of the main things

[00:31:09] that we would we would be against as as Christians that those created an image of God we are against

[00:31:15] the the slaughter and the murder of of in the womb they are already image bearers of God and so

[00:31:23] that's that's definitely one way that that plays out the human slavery we say we see it

[00:31:29] throughout history as as as Christians have been on the forefront of of of humanitarian as far as

[00:31:36] hospitals we're talking about babies girls that were thrown on out in the forest and stuff from

[00:31:42] when the in the the Christians will go out and get them because they were not they were a boy babies

[00:31:48] so they weren't going to grow up and carry the family name they had a disability or they had

[00:31:52] disabilities or or these kinds of things and we see one so the okay hospitals we see slavery

[00:31:59] as so many of the Christians with the forefront of abolishment of slavery

[00:32:05] women's rights the same thing we see that even from the beginning of Jesus's time we see it

[00:32:09] Paul bringing we just talked about it when we on Sunday morning that the the idea of a witness

[00:32:14] of a woman was of no consequence in Roman society because they were considered too emotional

[00:32:22] so as Christians are you saying that we believe or as people who believe the Bible I mean this

[00:32:27] comes from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint of the Old Testament as well but the idea is that

[00:32:32] women are equal as image bearers as men

[00:32:42] less they're not like two-thirds of an image bearer no of the same essence of the same quality of the

[00:32:47] same value yeah to God and they and to all of us we were all there's no difference so they have

[00:32:54] equal value equal value now Genesis will tell us that that we are given different roles

[00:33:00] society and and and that doesn't mean that there's more value in one role versus another

[00:33:06] role it's just that God has called us for his purposes to to live out for his good pleasure

[00:33:12] and glory and and to know him and to make him known in a sense and he's called us to do that in

[00:33:17] different ways based on our strengths and and so men and women have been given those different

[00:33:23] roles and one is biological women can give birth men cannot give birth so there's a

[00:33:29] distinct biological difference that we immediately find in in in the beginning of Genesis as well so

[00:33:36] yeah I really think a lot about the disability one I think that that is something that really sets

[00:33:41] Christianity apart and I'll tell you one of the ways that you can see this coming about I mean

[00:33:46] it can be a bit of a trope but let's be honest I mean like the ideas of eugenics

[00:33:51] the ideas of even today like trying to abort babies who have down syndrome or who have other

[00:33:58] developmental disabilities the idea of you know rounding up certain ethnicities and executing

[00:34:06] them the ideas of finding people with disabilities whether developmental or physical or mental and

[00:34:17] then using the term that Hitler used which was he said that they are worthless eaters they consume

[00:34:23] but they don't but they don't contribute and I think about this as far as like this is a very

[00:34:29] distinct way that Christians treat people differently because of our biblical anthropology

[00:34:35] that and we and if we don't we should right like how do you treat the disabled in your

[00:34:41] congregation how do you treat those with autism how do you treat those with down syndrome

[00:34:47] or with whatever disability it is like are they equal members of the congregation do they have value

[00:34:55] and worth can they contribute and we would say yes I mean obviously roles is a different thing right

[00:35:02] not everybody's going to have the same role and that's true regardless of ability as far as

[00:35:08] physical ability or maybe cognitive ability goes but I think that's really significant like how do

[00:35:13] we treat people we believe that even people with disabilities have equal value as somebody who doesn't

[00:35:21] yeah I think that that makes a huge difference right your value is not dependent on what you

[00:35:26] contribute on what you know or what you can do and I think that that is a biblical viewpoint

[00:35:34] that is unique and that's very distinct from what would be considered a secular viewpoint where

[00:35:40] where you you know Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest where that's wholeheartedly

[00:35:45] embraced by secular culture but what are the basically what are the implications of survival

[00:35:51] of the fittest well if you're not fit you're out the door yeah and we see that we see that in

[00:35:57] in the Nazi regime that is the ultimate working out of survival of the fittest and

[00:36:03] that's particular theology or what would you would the date that is completely what's the word

[00:36:09] of it's diametrically opposed there you go the diametrically opposed to biblical value of human

[00:36:18] life and I think we do get caught up in roles we get caught up in power we get caught up on in

[00:36:23] the survival of fittest we don't we don't call that that but it becomes that it's who has the

[00:36:30] your value is in what you bring to the table and how you can go about making yourself above others

[00:36:37] and and people don't like to admit that but that's the way the world works

[00:36:41] and and but the bible is diametrically opposed to that that is not our value in the eyes of god

[00:36:46] our value is that we are all image bearers no matter what yeah okay so here's some other

[00:36:52] theological implications first of all number one we are fragile meaning that we

[00:36:57] our physical bodies are frail they get sick and eventually they get old and this as Paul says in

[00:37:04] second Corinthians this earthly tent of our bodies will be packed up and put away and we'll receive a

[00:37:09] new body right so that's that's private also we're depraved meaning that we sin has corrupted

[00:37:16] every aspect of us it has corrupted our intentions our attitudes which lead to our actions

[00:37:24] another one is that the way that we are redeemed is by god and because of what Jesus did for us

[00:37:32] human beings also are accountable that's another part of our anthropology we're accountable

[00:37:39] both individually and communally and so yeah let me ask you this now this is getting a little bit

[00:37:45] into i'm not sure what you're gonna say about this so i'm curious how might theological

[00:37:51] anthropology inform discussions about the future of humanity for example how does it

[00:37:58] at what are the implications for our use of technology

[00:38:02] transhumanism and what about the quest for immortality yeah no i think this is a great

[00:38:08] question i've watched a couple of really fascinating podcasts on the topic of robotics and theology

[00:38:18] and it gets into the idea of of how are humanoids how are robots in the future going to change our

[00:38:30] perception of people especially if those robots look like us and this gets into some weird things but

[00:38:38] you know when it comes to like sex robots and things like that how will that change the idea

[00:38:45] there was one thing that was like what about pedophiles what happens if they create a robot

[00:38:51] that looks like a child and that's the way you take care of their their urges and things like that

[00:38:59] like they they do whatever they want with a childlike robot that has now become kind of a

[00:39:08] so i think the implications are quite i think it's important and i and i i champion and and these

[00:39:15] people that are already thinking about the implications of ai the implications of robots

[00:39:21] and and because especially ones that look like us and what they do to how we view humanity we

[00:39:29] already see it in in the idea of drones drone warfare you look at the war in ukraine

[00:39:34] and russia so much of it is done by drones people sitting in far away dropping bombs on people that

[00:39:42] are miles and miles away we've been doing it back in drone warfare started back in shortly after

[00:39:49] we were in iraq with the obama administration and that bit of course that had already been

[00:39:55] becoming a thing but people sitting in las vegas basically playing video games dropping bombs on

[00:40:02] on an arab wedding in the middle of nowhere and the consequences are not felt anymore and so we

[00:40:09] already see the i think that creates the idea of technology creates a distance another one that's

[00:40:16] comes to mind the comedian talked about the idea that the phone with children they're riding all

[00:40:23] these nasty things to each other on their phones and they don't they're not making eye contact

[00:40:28] they're not seeing the reaction of the human being across from them when they say hey you're fat

[00:40:34] or you're ugly or you're stupid there's not that visceral connection in relationships so technology

[00:40:40] has created creating a separation where we no longer value the person that's on the other side

[00:40:47] of the internet and we see with christians as well all the keyboard warriors and things that are

[00:40:52] on facebook and saying things so i think technology is playing a huge part in in devaluing humankind

[00:41:02] as much information as we now have on the world i in a sense it has devalued mankind by quite a bit

[00:41:11] and so i think that's certainly as as the future rolls on as these questions are being answered

[00:41:17] and new things i mean it's going faster than anybody thinks and so i think that's something we as

[00:41:23] christians need to keep forefront is the value of humankind and how we how we let that technology

[00:41:29] affect how we treat one another so in summary what would you say just to kind of sum up the

[00:41:35] topic why is it important that people know about human anthropology from a biblical perspective

[00:41:42] i think it's extremely important because if you don't know where you where you came from

[00:41:46] it's very difficult to know why you are here and where you're going you have zero purpose i think

[00:41:52] origin gives us purpose and and the basis of that origin where we came from is is extremely

[00:42:00] important in making decisions today and then thinking about the future and i think as image

[00:42:05] bearers that speak of an almighty god all creator god transcendent god who became jesus

[00:42:12] manuel we see his love for his creation when we understand who we are individually how god created

[00:42:20] us what he created us for how much he loved us in christ and that just sets the the ground work

[00:42:28] for why am i here and what is my purpose and and what is god calling me to and then what is that

[00:42:35] can look like in the future when when god might return and so i think it speaks to identity

[00:42:43] and how screwed up our identity is today and many people when they don't know where they came from

[00:42:49] and why they are who they are and again speaks to value of humankind we just talked about that

[00:42:54] that can deteriorate so quickly when we don't we forget who we are in jesus in god and in in

[00:43:03] in the bible's definition as image bearers of of of the almighty god so yeah that's great so i think

[00:43:11] it's a big topic like i said there's a there's a lot that can be found in the bible about this

[00:43:16] it's also systematic theology that you can get into about this but um it's a good overview

[00:43:22] an introduction to the topic mike where can people find out more about you or what you do

[00:43:28] where can they find you on spotify and i'm on spotify i've got a couple songs out there

[00:43:35] that but yeah i mean just here at the church whitefields church.com you can get involved

[00:43:41] with what we're doing here in church sunday mornings catch us live and of course sermon

[00:43:46] extras that are on the youtube channel and of course theology for the people make occasional

[00:43:52] appearances here as well and so we'll yeah so there's yeah a lot of different places it's great

[00:43:58] great to be a part of this discussion i think it's an important discussion yeah well thanks mike

[00:44:06] thanks for listening to this episode of theology for the people new episodes are released every

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[00:44:16] i'll be speaking with pastor steven pomeroy about the question of whether baptism is necessary for

[00:44:22] salvation there are some christians who teach that it is and they quote the bible to prove their case

[00:44:28] steven and i will be discussing that topic looking at those verses and hoping to bring clarity

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