Understanding Spiritual Gifts and Their Importance for the Church

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Stoke It Up podcast. We are excited to be with you today. Dr. Alan Stoddard and I

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: co-host this podcast as a part of the Calvary Global Network, and man, we are just thrilled to have

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: with us today our special guest, Dr. Ken Hemphill, to talk about Spiritual Gifts. Dr. Hemphill,

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in recent weeks, Alan and I have been discussing spiritual formation as a part of our conversation

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and just kind of helping the Church and helping pastors think through how they're involved in

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: disciple making in the Church. And we've had some other guests on the podcast with us,

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and we both thought that a great conversation in light of this spiritual formation conversation

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is to address this issue of spiritual gifts. And as we thought about it, you're kind of

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: for at least for me, and I think Alan would agree one of these thought leaders in spiritual gifts,

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of course Dr. Hemphill is a PhD graduate of Cambridge University. We'll just say way back when.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We won't age it too much. We'll say way back when. And his dissertation came out of first

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Corinthians, and he dealt extensively with this issue on first Corinthians. And in Southern

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Baptist life, he's probably the foremost authority that's alive today with the research he's

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: done on this topic, just discussing spiritual gifts. And so we wanted to bring that experience to the

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: table as we're engaging this conversation of spiritual formation. So Dr. Hemphill,

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we're glad to have you with us today. And we just want to jump right in and begin with

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding spiritual gifts. Can you explain what spiritual gifts are according to the Bible

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and why they're important for the local church community to really know and focus on and why

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it should be a concern for the church today? Well, it's great to be with you guys.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Kenneth and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity because I believe this is one of

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the critical topics of our day. As you mentioned, I spent three years in Cambridge focused on

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: this particular topic. It came out of an experience I had because my passion is local church. And so

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was going to do a PhD, my question for one of my faculty members actually at Southern at the

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: time when I had finished my DMM work there was if I'm going to do a PhD, what is an issue you

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: think is going to be critical in these days for the local church? And he mentioned the fact

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that this whole issue of spiritual gifts, which sometimes is fraught with a lot of

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: foam rather than information and it kind of gets people choosing upsides if you will. And

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: so I spent a great deal of time with probably the greatest New Testament scholar of our generation,

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: CFD Moll. And so as I began to do this course, I'm a Biblicist. So if the Bible talks about

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it, I want to talk about it. And I don't fear talking about any texts in the Bible. God gave the

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: entire Bible for our edification. And so what I did was basically go through what I called the

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Community Ministry passages. So I kind of broadened it past what we would talk about because

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: almost everybody runs to 1st Corinthians 12 before 10. And that's important because that is

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the greatest extent of Paul's teaching on it. But it actually begins in 1st Thessalonians 511

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: in following where Paul talks about the role of the pastor and the role of the of the lady, if you

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: would, if we want to use terms will understand that is the membership of the congregation

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and their ministry. Now the terminology for spiritual gifts doesn't occur there, but it

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the elements behind it are that you have some that are gifted to lead and you have everyone in

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the congregation gifted to minister to one another, and they don't breathe the Spirit. So you get this

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: whole context. Now we get over to 1st Corinthians 12 through 14 and we'll kind of unpack some of

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: those texts as your questions and time go on. But let me go ahead and start with the answer

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to your first question. So I've got a very simple definition and that is their gifts and abilities

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: given by God. So they are a gift, that's pretty critical. So if God gives them, we ought to be

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: interested in receiving them because God doesn't give bad gifts. You know, in fact Jesus talks

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: about that several times and that is if an earthly father can give good gifts, yes why?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the heavenly father who knows us, who created us, who designed us for his kingdom

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: is not going to give us gifts that are disruptive. Our misunderstanding of them may be and they're

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: not going to be disruptive to his church which is his bride. So we want to know about these

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're grace gifts from the Father. So first of all they're given by him by grace. Now

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: by the way, that's an important thing that occurs really early in 1st Corinthians chapter 12. We

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: realize that Corinthian letters are fascinating but they're complex because the first several chapters

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: are based on information Paul has received from the community and from Chloe's people. So

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we have to deal with that and then all of a sudden we get to this little phrase,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: peri-day, now concerning, now concerning, now concerning. So the Corinthians had actually

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: written a letter to Paul. Wouldn't we love to have that letter extend in our hands because we have

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to reconstruct those questions? So they'll talk about several things. Well this one starts in

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: chapter 12, now concerning. In other words, okay I talked some about spiritual gifts when I was

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: with you. You didn't understand fully what I had to say. You've written me this letter,

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: now let me explain this to you. So now concerning spiritual gifts. The first word there in the Greek,

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know your people sitting out there on the podcast probably can't see all the details we'd

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: love to give them, but it comes from the word numal which is spirit. The ending is mata,

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: which means manifestation of. Now when Paul actually answers the question later in verse four,

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: he's going to use a different word, keres mata. The word karest meaning grace, mata meaning manifestation

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of. The actual changing of the word under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is a part of Paul's

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: corrective. So one of the reasons many churches and many Christians fear kind of getting into

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: this topic of spiritual gifts is they've seen some of the abuses where they're used to

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of claim I'm more spiritual than you are. I've had more of God's spirit than you have and it's

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: proved by this gift or that gift. That was what was happening in Corinth. There's a group there that

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: considered themselves spiritually elite. They had something beyond what the ordinary quote

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Christian has, and so Paul has to dismiss this very notion. So when he picks up the word

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: karest mata or charismatic we get today, what he's actually doing is correcting

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a thing that keeps many churches away and many individuals away from studying the word of God

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: about what has God done to gift me. And he's saying gifts prove nothing about the possessor,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: but everything about the giver. So no matter what gift I have, it doesn't prove that I'm more

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: spiritual than anybody else. It proves that God is gracious and he's gifted me for his bride. So first

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of all they're given by God. Secondly, they are surrendered as living sacrifice. Now you get that

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: out of the next major gift passage Romans 12 1 through 8. You got another one going to come up

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: in Ephesians 4 and all of these are a part of Paul's in a sense progressive teaching. So when

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: people would come to me and say, how do I discover my spiritual gift? I'd say get to the altar,

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: give yourself to God, surrender yourself to him because he wants you to know your gifts more than

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you probably do because he created you with his kingdom and his church in mind. Do you know that

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the things I got a lot of telling people is that God created you for himself

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and for his church. And first Corinthians 12 18, Paul's going to say that specifically that God

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: placed you in the church as he desired. And that's in the context of where he's using this

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: illustration of the human body and how the human body needs diverse members. It needs

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: hands and feet and ears and the body members can't argue and say, well I'm more important

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: than you are. I'm not important to the kingdom. And I tell people spiritual gifts is going to

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: help you more than you think about your biblical self-esteem that you were designed by God for

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: his kingdom through his church. How exciting is that? So first of all they're given by God.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Number two, they're discovered by surrender. You know and so when and we're going to get

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: later on to things about questionnaires and all of that and those things can be very

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: helpful but the first step is just to get on the altar and say Lord here I am. No condition,

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I don't have to sing in the choir. I don't have to be at the pulpit. I don't have to have that

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: premium position you put me in the body where do you choose. So that's step number two. Then thirdly,

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: so they're given by God. They're discovered through surrender and the third one is they're

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: utilized for the edification of the church. Now there are some gifts that may take us

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: into the community service but they still are related to the church because our goal

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: always is to connect them to the body of Christ. There's no such thing in the New

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Testament as a lone range of Christianity. So even gifts that may extend the work of

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that local church into the community service are still designed to build the church.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: They're all about building the church. So Paul's going to talk about 1 Corinthians 14-12,

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: key verse there, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts seek to abound for the edification of the

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: church. So part of my discovery process is to ask people what do you see as the greatest

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: need of your church or your community and would you be willing to discover that that's where

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: God wants you? So three things, grace gifts by God so they're good gifts. They're discovered

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: through surrender. This is not an agenda on your part. This is already designed by God so you got

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: at the first step just to get on the altar and say I'm available. I'm available because once

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you make yourself available, God has already created your ability. So you can get availability

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that way. He's already designed you for that. We'll get to a little discussion this later

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: on because I think most of our guys, many of our gifts are created by God in the womb that we are

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: who we are by his intentionality. So what we have sometimes referred to as natural talents,

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they were not given by mother nature. They were designed by God and many of the gifts

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that we'll discover have been inherent in us because God designed us from conception

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: for his kingdom and his church. So those are the kind of the three steps that I use in explaining

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: what a spiritual gift is. You know, follow up question on that or? I would ask, let's

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: okay, what would you say are the dangers and concerns of spiritual gifts

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and in light of what you just said and how does it go wrong? Okay, I would say that the

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: dangers actually are again bound up in those two words and that is over-evaluation and under-evaluation.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of the quote evangelicals are guilty of under-evaluation. They think we can run our church

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: without the spirit and without spiritual gifts. That's pretty dangerous. That's pretty mechanical

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and it creates a mechanical church, not a supernatural power church. So the fact of the

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: matter is we are totally relied upon the Holy Spirit and that's why throughout the scriptures,

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the spirit promises that when Jesus leaves or Jesus actually promises that when he leaves,

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the church will do more without him than they did with him. Not because he's leaving but because

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: he's coming again in the presence of his Holy Spirit to indwell the church and that whole

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Johanna in passage where they're concerned where he just announced his departure. He said,

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you're better off with me leaving because I'm going to send the paraclete to help her

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's going to indwell you. He's going to remind you of these things. He's going to

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: empower you to speak these things. So the first thing is the under-evaluation to say we don't

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: need to talk about or teach about the spirit or the gifts in order to do church. Well, guess what?

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The church is the bride of Christ. It is empowered by the spirit and so without

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: spirit-filled Christians and spirit-empowered churches, we're dealing with mechanical organization

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: not the church. So that's one side of the cause that we sometimes see from most of us would be kind

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: of more in the evangelical camp I suppose than we would necessarily in what the charismatic

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: camp. Even though I hate the use of those words or these ideas of those camps. It's

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: something we have to identify with and so you've asked what the dangers are. The other danger obviously

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is the one of the over-exaggeration. That is where we connect gifts to my spiritual value

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: or your gift may not look as impressive as mine. So I look down on you as being a second-class

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Christian maybe in some context even almost questioning whether you are a Christian or not

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: if you don't manifest the same gift that I do. So I think the two dangers and I remember I was at

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: a Billy Graham event kind of a training event and there was a speaker there and he made an

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting point. He said, I don't give and he was talking more about theology and politics than

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: he was spiritual gifts but he basically said, you know, I don't get on with the right wing

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and I can't identify with the left wing because what I discovered is both wings flap off the same

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: old bird and so you can get in the side ditch on either side of this thing and still be wrong.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is that we don't want to talk about spiritual gifts because there can be abused.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Well yes, that's true but if you don't talk about them then you're going to have a situation

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: where many of your lay people are going to be sitting back listening and consuming because

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't see themselves as worthy or capable of serving the king of glory. Follow up on that one?

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just thinking Ken, LifeWay Research released an article, Research Stat recently

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: dated I think like May 23rd. I saw it come out in an Insights report today as a matter of fact

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: as we're recording this here in the middle of July that 66% of people in the church are not serving

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and they refer to serving the church or the community so that's any volunteer work whatsoever.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So two thirds of the church are sitting and soaking and so it seems to me if spiritual

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: gifts and again we understand it's there's this like you were saying there's this caution of I

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: don't want to talk about them because people may abuse them but at the same time if we don't

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about them if we're not challenging people to engage and use their spiritual gifts

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: then we get the sitting soakers. And they're not fulfilling their purpose as

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: servants of Christ called and gifted to serve the church and its community where the church is placed.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do we get around this? What do we need to do to move people from the pew

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: into actually engaging into meaningful service in the life of the church?

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I don't doubt those statistics and many instances I think they would be even worse than

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: cited in that study because you're broadened it even to the community but let me tell you a story

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I'll come back kind of the text that kind of changed our approach to this in First

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Baptist Church in Norfolk. One Sunday morning I preached one of those and you guys would both

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: understand this one of those kind of blistering sermons about the lack of commitment, the

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: lack of service and gave an altar call and nobody came. It was one of those you know

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it was pretty blistering to say the least. We were growing so fast we had so many new Christians

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and everybody was celebrating the hand of God and nobody wanted to get involved. So I was walking

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: through a local hospital the next morning making some visitation and there was a lady there that

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: was a young widow from our church who was a candy striper if you remember that. And so I

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: walked past her and I just glanced and I kind of waved at her and I said,

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: how are you doing today? And she said fine etc. And it dawned on me that here she is giving these

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: hours of service in a worthwhile means but did she in any sense think about how they connected

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to her commitment as a Christian? So I kind of walked back and I said were you there yesterday

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and she kind of dropped her head because it was that kind of sermon. It was you know

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it was pretty potent say the least and she said yes pastor and she said you know I just can't

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: understand why with what all God is doing in our church nobody responded. And I was dealing with

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the same issue very candidly so I thought well why not ask her? And I said have you ever

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: thought about your role in the body of Christ and then I said how many hours a week do you give

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: here? And it was about 20 hours. I said what do you do? And she said well I get to empty bedpans

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and and I'm thinking holy cow I got bedpans of plenty back in our preschool if that's

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: if that's what you're wanting to do. And I asked her the hardest question I'd ever ask a layman

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was one of the most important for me to hear as a pastor. I said have you ever

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: thought about for a moment what you could do with your gifts, abilities and your passion

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for the body of Christ for the church? And she said pastor that would be my greatest desire.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking why were you yesterday morning then? And I said well why not?

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Listen to this two things she said I'm not worthy and I'm not capable. Now the first word worthy

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: changed my preaching because I had to talk about what happens when God saves you

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: fully you know that he's forgiven your sins. Everybody sitting in your pew has a past

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and oftentimes they think that past has disqualified them from ever being effective for the kingdom of

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: God. It may be that I don't know it may be that she's had a divorce in her past she's had an

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: illicit relationship she's had a child who rebelled and isn't in church everybody thinks

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: they could be disqualified until they fully understand what it means to be forgiven

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and that God has fully created us for his kingdom he desires to forgive us he's placing us in the

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: body as he chooses. That was the first one. Second one was when we started really emphasizing

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Spiritus I'm not capable. Well no none of us are capable in the flesh. You know if we could do it

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in the flesh we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit and so we had to begin the ministry talking

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: about the work of the Spirit. We had to talk about the gifts of the Spirit. You know it's not a

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: single thing it's that whole package of understanding that God has given his presence through the Holy

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Spirit to individuals and to congregations that they might be effective for his kingdom.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was kind of a life changer for me as a pastor.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So let me ask this there's been studies that have come out and curriculum like place we used to

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: use place at Cornerstone and then you've got Rick Warren Purpose Driven model shape

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and their strategy that comes with that. Then you've got You Are Gifted and I'm going to put

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the link to the to the to that book in the show notes. I remember reading that book and

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: what stuck out to me the most was when you said in that book I'm gonna I'm not trying

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: out the mischaracterizing. You said don't do the spiritual gift surveys first or something like

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that. Basically you said what you said earlier about surrender pray let the Spirit of God move

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you. Where are you Dr. Hemphill with the ideas of place shape and really what I'm asking is what

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: strategy should we use to connect. I know that in between the theology of what we're saying

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and the result of what we're saying there's this middle piece that I think overwhelms your

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: average pastor doesn't know how to mobilize the people of God where would you say you're

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing a need or what strategy would you give say that small church pastor that goes man it's too

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: overwhelming for me what do I do. Okay all right we're talking about discovery development and

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: deployment I use three days there all of us use these kind of things to help people whether it's

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: shape or whatever that's fine and that is the for many people the first step has to be that

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: sense of discovery. I don't know where I fit I don't know how I could help in the kingdom of God

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and a lot of that still is the issue of grace so you know continue preaching what you would normally

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: do expositionally about forgiveness and God's placing us in the body but three things I think

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: are important and I'll kind of get to it is mentoring and I'll tell you why in a minute

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: training because a lot of people get this notion that if I have a spiritual gift I don't need to be

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: trained well we wouldn't have a seminary if we had that philosophy because most of the men and

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: women that were called a seminary feel God calling them the ministry but obviously that doesn't mean

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that they don't go for equipping and training and so the church has still got to train people

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: not only how to use their gifts but to use them in the context of the broader community so

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and then service opportunities let me tell you another interesting story and I'll kind of take

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you back to the book kind of where we talked about this in the back of the book.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I was asked to do a D-Men sort of be kind of the field supervisor for a D-Men project at one

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of our Southern Baptist seminaries and this was after I was president Southwestern so since I've been

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: on the on the east coast so to speak and so the young man was working through this whole thing

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: on spiritual gifts and how to discover them how to develop them and how to deploy them so

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: he's right down my my bailiwick but you know in doing D-Men you've got to have kind of a

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: project and surveys and all that kind of information and so one of the things I asked him to do I said

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to go to three or four different churches in your community not all Baptist you can get

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: some that would be more leaning towards Pentecostal some the west and that and again we're using

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: terms I don't necessarily like to use because it puts people in camps and I never

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: like to do that anyway so but it went across the spectrum you know Baptist Methodist Pentecostal

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: etc and I said I want you to ask the pastor to identify two or three people in that church

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that he is convinced are serving in their gifted area you know because we've seen people that were

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: serving out of loyalty but they're not in their gifted area and you can kind of see it by the

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: lack of results or by the their lack of joy in it or whatever it was and I said whatever his criteria is

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: help let him identify for you two or three people so we're dealing now with four or five churches

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: two or three people so we're doing a pretty good size sample of 15 to 20 people and so I want you

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to ask them the question how did you discover your spiritual gifts now I had a a notion of

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: how this survey would end but I wanted him to find it himself and so what he discovered was

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: what I had discovered as a pastor myself number one was a mentor or a spiritual

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: disciple or in a sense who helped you identify your spiritual gift see in you something like

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: almost in high school a guidance counselor you know you would go if you didn't have a clue what

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you wanted to do you kind of go and then we'll get back to that test sometimes that you didn't

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: aptitude test so there were tools sometimes they would use to help in the process but the key

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: often was let me tell you what I see in you that's why mentorship is so important in in the life of our

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: church a second was trial and error you know I just went to the office said I'm available

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: pastor said try this you know and so I got back there teaching preschool and I got not me

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you know then and so then we shift to item number two so in the in the book and process

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: discovery I kind of talk about this number one place a priority on prayer james four two says

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you do not have because you do not ask so begin with your people praying about it help them pray

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: with them about their desire to serve the church effectively and so many people run to these similar

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: seminars and I do seminars on this in local churches and it's kind of the anti seminar in some ways

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because they run to this fill out a survey form without really understanding the nature of those

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they come back and many of those early surveys by the way going further back than

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the ones today we're often kind of personality qualifications some of those old personality

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: things and I would have skies that go fill out a survey for them they'd come back you know pastor

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I've understood why I'm so abrupt and so rude I've got to give to prophecy and I said no brother

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you just are abrupt and rude because you're not filled with spirit has nothing to do with that

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: gift some of the prophets in the Old Testament were rather abrupt others were not you know so

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we sometimes in some of those survey forms got a confused personality style with giftedness

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so place a priority on prayer number two what do you see when you pray for the needs of your

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: church and your community you see you see the world through your gift in this and so

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: where my gifts are oftentimes is what I'm going to see as a great snake which is

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you both are pastor and people will come to you and they'll say pastor what we need the most do in

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: our church is and then you get the next guy knocking on your door and he sees something

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: different he sees a greater need in this area in the community well that's because

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: God wired us differently that's not bad that's a good thing and so consider the needs of your

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: kingdom communities third one is look carefully at your passion so when we really got serious about

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: spiritual gifts we actually included it in our visitation program so let's say you've got a couple

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: visits your church and they are considering joining your church well we can go to their home

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and we talk to them about their salvation experience we'll make sure they

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: understood what it mean to be a fully committed follower of Jesus whether they had followed

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the word in baptism those were part of our tradition was important then my last question

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because they would often say okay what do you offer for children what do you I mean many people church

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: shop based on what do you give me you know so it's all about a consumer kind of thing

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: well I would answer those questions I didn't mind doing that I understand the family wanting a church

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that's going to have programs for their kids etc but my last question was if God were to place you

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in this community and I quote first one first week this way they take what would it be your

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: passion to do to advance the ministry of history well many times their first response is what

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what does what slots do you need filling because we've kind of based all of this on

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the slots you know choir Sunday school small groups you know we know we have these

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: these places we've got to fill you know we've got some sort of committee that helps do that

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and so they that was kind of her first response and I said well that wasn't the question

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I said if there were no slots to fill in our church what do you feel most compelled

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and passionate you'd like to do now this is a funny story because this was during a time that

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: there was a lot of interest in having these drama vignettes in church if you remember that

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you had groups like Jeremiah people that traveled around in any contemporary church then it wasn't

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: about PowerPoint or whatever it was about having these little vignettes and so we had had the Jeremiah

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: people at our church and I had a number of people after this came out and said wow we really loved

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that that was so good it just spoke to me why don't we do that kind of ministry in our church

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and my question was do you feel gifted to do that and they all said well no but we'd love to

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: do it I said okay let's pray together as a group that God will bring someone with those gifts

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: so when I asked this young lady that question she said if I were to tell you what I feel most gifted

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to do you're laughing and I said no I would never do that you know I'm an understanding pastor

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and she said you know I have a passion for drama that was a drama major in college

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: she said I think there'd be a way of communicating the gospel through these dramatic things and

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to help write the skits and conduct that while I started laughing

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: she was so embarrassed because she said you promised not to laugh and I said honey I am not

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: laughing at you I'm laughing in the spirit I said we've got a group of about eight or ten people

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: have been praying for you and they have the desire to do this they don't have the skill to

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: do it the gifts to do it but you can help develop those gifts so that was again a different

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: way because it said what is your passion and so that's one of the questions I had then

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: look for fulfillment I tell people when you're serving in your gift to do any there's a sense

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of fulfillment that doesn't mean it's not going to be hard that doesn't mean you're not going

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to face controversy in doing it because as a pastor it's hard work and you know yet I feel

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: fulfilled when I do those things because there's that sense of God's preparation his presence and

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: his power through the midst of that listen for honest affirmation and that's again where this mentor is

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so important many people will not necessarily be honest with you and you know it's like somebody

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: who seems to solo and it's awful but we don't want to embarrass them and you know you kind

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: oh my gosh that was so moving I know it wasn't that's not where your gift is this me so don't look for

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because people brag on you sometimes unnecessarily look for somebody who knows you who loves you maybe

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a prayer partner accountability partner who will be honest with you and they say what do you see

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in me that maybe I'm missing try several areas of ministry now here's where I get to a survey

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that I do that's on page 196 of the book and and I'll just read a few of these because this is

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: what I call an open ended prayer survey so this is not something you're going to sit in the room

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: over 20 minutes and kind of check boxes now I don't have a problem with those and I'll talk

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: about where they can fit into this but this one I tell if I do a conference in the church over a weekend

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll a lot of times send them home on Saturday night and this is their assignment question number one

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you proceed to be the greatest need of your church because you're going to see that through

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: your own gift and that's how God wired you number two if there were no barriers and no ministry

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: slots to fill in your church what would you most like to do to advance the kingdom

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you do number three that encourages others number four what areas do you find satisfaction

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: fulfillment industry number five what ministry generates the greatest sense of enthusiasm and

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: excitement number six list things that you have done that have caused people to say

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that ministered to me you ministered to me what areas of service do you think about when you're

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: talking to your heavenly father about the needs of the community what training classes provided

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: your church have created the most interest for you that's just kind of a beginning of it now

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I tell people God uses different kind of tools in different people's lives so if you go through

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: this prayer process and you still go that's still I have a clue that might be a place to go to your

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: pastor your church staff and say okay what are some other tools that might help me in that context

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the pastor staff may suggest shape or one of these other tools likely has them many instances but

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: don't start there because you're already putting the spirit in a box to fit you into one of those

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because most of those have an assumption about gifts that I don't and that is that you have to

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: find yourself on one of the gift list in the New Testament so here's a peculiar thing about my

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: teaching that may take another question or another series and that is the spiritual gift list in

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the Bible are illustrating not exhausted they were never intended to be all of the gifts

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so when Paul uses you'll notice in chapter 12 that there are two different lists of gifts one occurs

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: fairly early in the chapter then you have a whole section on the body that body imagery then you

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: have a second list well that second list is similar to the first but very different in fact it starts

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: by listing them by number first apostle second prophet it's the only list that has kind of a

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: numbering system until it gets down to the middle and then it adds two gifts that are only in that

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: one list and the Greek words are fascinating I don't like to use a lot of Greek because I don't

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: know a lot of Greek but it's Kubernetes and other leaps they're just cool words they're kind

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: fascinating words only curve one time in the Bible right here one means helps other means administration

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: helps is exactly what it says helps it's for that guy who says or gal who says man I don't have

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: any unique gifts but man I love to sort of put me behind the scenes you know let me stuff on

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: below let me work out in the parking lot wherever it is we haven't given the fact

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that those people are vital to the life of the church because that is how God wired them they

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: don't want to be on the platform they don't want to sing that solo they don't feel comfortable or gift

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: in doing that but behind the scenes that's where God wired them to be it makes them as important

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: as the pastor said to me because there's no listing of them in that nature so he kind of

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: what I call a gift sandwich here he pulls the top off because the spirituals didn't even see

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the importance of leaders so he gives those leaders by his teacher and then he uses these two

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: what what how you use and I don't like this word mundane service gifts that's how we sometimes

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: see them they're just kind of behind the scenes kinds of things if you don't have people in your

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: church like that you'd never get anything done and those that have those administrative builders

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Kenneth will tell you he drove me the airport often enough to know I'm not an administrator

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an idea guy I don't have more ideas on the way to the airport than anybody can accomplish but

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not all good ideas and there has to be somebody that can organize those ideas to come

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: to fruition every church needs that so we need to help people I I tell people God's so creative

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that guess what he's giving you gifts today I think there are gifts for example that that people have

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that are in the artistic realm by the way if you want biblical precedents for it go to accident

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the people who work building the tabernacle and the temple the craftsman who could weave those

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: things in and beat out those bonds things and the gold over the altar they were gifted by the Holy Spirit

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: so we actually have gifts mentioned the Old Testament believe it or not that are not in

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the New Testament why because they weren't building church buildings in the New Testament

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: most of the musical gifts are in the Old Testament so we kind of limited God by saying well

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't find myself on chapter 12 verse 8 I can't find myself in Romans 12 6 the way

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't see where I fit on those and the problem with most gift inventories is that they select a

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: certain number of gifts whether it's 712 I've seen all sorts of them and the problem then is that

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got to fit one of those slots think outside the slots God is gifting his church in this new

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: day to accomplish its purpose in this day those were gifts that were most appropriate to the

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: first century church so unleash the Holy Spirit in the life of your people in your church and you

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: may discover that there'll be people there that have gifts that are vital to your video ministry

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: which is important today and it was more important during code than ever before if you didn't have

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: people that could do that you didn't have a way of ministering to your your community or your

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: church so that's kind of a long answer to your short question and cannot say you're such a

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you're a radical man you you are just so radical

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: go ahead Alan go no I was just going to agree and say all the Dr. Hemphill just said in some

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: in some circles that would be considered radical yeah absolutely it feels right by the spirit it

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: just feels right to mobilize people and have God through us mobilizing people like that that just

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: wow I love that okay good sorry yeah so you know we can take this and I'm sure Alan I'll go back

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll watch some of this will be like man we need to schedule another session so we can

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: break that down but I want to go back to a part of your process you mentioned a few things and

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to tie it in and this might be kind of as we're closing down our conversation a little bit

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: been going a little over almost 45 minutes but but on this issue of spiritual formation that

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we've been talking about for a few weeks having these conversations and you mentioned some things

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in your process and you talk about mentoring and that's really big in spiritual formation

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the disciple making process to have you know the Catholic Church calls it a spiritual guide

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and so whatever language you want to use we've talked about it in our formation conversations

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but you have this idea of this one-on-one or one-on-two or three that you're meeting with

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: them to have these conversations and you think about that list of questions that you were reading

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and and and that prayer guidance and I think that if you sat down the average believer

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: they're not praying that way they don't know how to pray that way and that's where this

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: mentor this this guide this director the disciple has an opportunity as they're beginning

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to develop someone to get them to think and pray that way through their spiritual gifts

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but then you also brought up this idea about about talking with new members when you're having a

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: conversation now now Alan just released a book for new believers not new members but new believers

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and a disciple making process for engaging the new believer and so I want to tie this whole

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: spiritual formation and spiritual gift idea in with the release of this book as well and just

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of ask that question at what point Dr. Hemphill should we be talking to a new Christian

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: about their spiritual gifts and their role of serving the church when should this come into

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the conversation uh day one I am I am an advocate of the local church we are born into a community

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you helped me in the book I wrote some years ago called connected community it's becoming

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: family through church so the concept of an isolated believer or a long range of Christian

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: New Testament is not there you know we're we're born into a family of faith that's why

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you look at the book of Acts and everywhere the gospel goes a church is planted and so I think

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Christians need to understand that their salvation experience while it is individual

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it has corporate connotation and that's why you get so many people today who say

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe in God I believe in Jesus I don't need the church well that's wrong from two standpoints

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the the church needs you and you need the church the church needs you because you know Paul will talk

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: about in in first Corinthians three he said okay I planted this church Paulus watered the seed

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that I had planted but God himself caused the growth there we are back to that supernatural element

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that his next warning is be careful how you build whether with wood hay stubble gold silver precious

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: stone because the day will tell it I tell people we have done our people of this service by giving

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: them the idea that Christians never face judgment now we don't face the great white

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: throne judgment praise God we the blood of Christ has covered us there and so that's right cure forever

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but there is a judgment for works and a judgment for our words and so it's important that that we help

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: new Christians to understand that while their decision to accept Christ is a very individual

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: personal decision their decision brings them into a corporate community the Old Testament's

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: clear about this the Old Testament they understood that they spoke more often of the corporate nature

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of Israel than they did the individual we make Christianity and this even related to this role

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of the Holy Spirit very individual you know are you filled with spirit yeah that's a good

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: question but the bigger question is is your church empowered and filled with the spirit you know and

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: so in the context of that as soon as you can I mean when it when a baby's born in the hospital you

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: bring them home to a family you know and that baby apart from that family is not going to survive

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: never going to thrive and that's why in our world today such things as adoption is so

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_02]: important I'm talking about in the physical realm but we need to see it in the spiritual realm this is

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_02]: part of following Jesus is to be part of his family first Corinthians 12-18 the father designed you

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: for community and you'll never be all that God intended you do until you find your place in that

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: community so that's very important in that whole discipling mentoring process that Allen's

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: writing about working through and I'm thrilled that you guys see that as a priority you know we

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes start with those kind of individual things how to pray you know how to read your

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Bible study about need to do that those those are critical but there is a point which you need

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to clearly understand that we are interrelated I tell people spiritual gifts make us dependent

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we're dependent on God but they also make us interdependent and that is that none of us have

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: all the gifts and so that means we rely upon people in our congregation who have other gifts

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the illustraceous I used kind of blunt but here we go I had a pianist in our church who was

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: amazing and I loved to place my chair behind her because I love to watch those fingers play

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_02]: across that keyboard and it was oh my gosh does that guy have gifted fingers and gifted hand

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: well what if you sever that gifted hand from the rest of the body so when people kind of

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02]: don't understand the importance of fellowship of community quininea and they separate themselves

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: in the life of the body they don't lose their salvation but they lose their usefulness to

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the kingdom ago and see that's what they were designed for that's good it is designed for them

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and they lose it they're never going to be satisfied fulfilled in their christian life

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that's excellent yesterday I preached at indian creek baptist church in mineral wells texas

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and one of the things that I will do sometimes if it comes up is try to authenticate or is that

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the right word I guess only one in 10 new believers gets followed up on or discipled and so

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll I'll do it in the congregation I'll say hey raise your hand after you were saved in

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: baptize if you would consider and I leave it broad it can I don't care how you define it it's

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: fine oh yesterday there were probably 25 percent of the congregation that raised their hand out of

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: about 200 people and so what we have found in the last 10 years is that we don't do new believer

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: follow-up very well our assimilation processes are good and needed but they don't disciple

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: at the level that and let me let me get specific that that you're talking about dr. hemphill

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm thinking of a portion in this book it was it was it it it doesn't encompass everything we do

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a thing with internals which is what you're talking about but it also funnels over flows

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: over to externals and by externals we mean that the bible reading the things you do

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: doing and not everybody disciples this but I have just a sliver in my I have a week by week

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: what you do and I hated writing it because the guy that disciple me in all this was named John

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Burton he went to be with the Lord two weeks ago and he didn't it's a spirit-led thing well one

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_00]: of the things we do is teach people how to be filled with the spirit how to live the spirit

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: filled life when I first became a Christian it was called the victorious Christian life well

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: my point is there's a little sliver in there where I bring up spiritual gifts now other people they

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: don't bring it up and disciple it they say no that's not for a new believer but I think while

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you have them in a one-on-one one-on-two one-on-three environment before you let them go

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00]: if it takes a year then it takes a year but disciple them and help them mobilize okay so

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that's something I was thinking about just a statement I want to ask one more question Dr.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Hemphill here you are after all these years and I think man you God has allowed you to

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: accomplish like everything you're like the Mount Rushmore for Kenneth and I mean you're

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_00]: God is really blessed and I know you know that let me ask you this where you are

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: in your season of life now where are you personally seeing spiritual gifts flourish

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in your circles and my purpose in asking this is because this is not just something that pastors do

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we are we are the people of God and I watch you and I know you're thinking about this I know your

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_00]: high impact but where specifically do you see the spirit flourishing in your gifting in this

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_00]: season after being an author seminary president pastor where where are you seeing God flourish

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you well Paul and I are now living in Seneca South Carolina we're near university and you know my

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: wife has always had a passion for muslim and for muslim women in particular so God has given us

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: believe it or not a number of persian young ladies to help lead to the Lord and nurture in their

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: faith and so now the spirit is kind of moving us to a different level of ministry to this

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: generation and many of these will go back to their countries and be key leaders in in the context of

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the government and other places because they wouldn't be in university in America so I think

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: particularly and the other thing is that you know we need to still fulfill the great commission

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: by going and sending but every community in this nation now has the great commission

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: community right around their church and and what I find is that we've often and you and I both

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: feel that the church got to look more like heaven and we've often thought about that

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in terms of race which is an important thing that we don't see enough of that balance in our

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: churches but now the nations are around us and so there's no reason your church can't

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_02]: do great commission stuff right in that neighborhood and I think the spirit is moving the church

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_02]: out of the walls into the community to see that possibility that they a church that may not

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you know through through son of ab's life we have a way through the cooperative program but

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: oftentimes we use that as an excuse for not doing anything else so we're given sending

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: missionaries all over the world but what about doing the great commission right in your

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_02]: neighborhood with these people and so I think the spirit is kind of moving the church to be more

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: more universal in its approach in its own community well that's exciting the reason why I ask is I'm

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking what does a what does a seminary president do and after the seminary you one thing I love

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: about you Dr. Impel is you keep going and the regular things of Christianity it can be big it

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: can be small but that this really motivates both Kenneth and I anything else Kenneth well

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: well you know I appreciate you saying that I teach Sunday school class every Sunday

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I love teaching the Bible and so I've got a class of 18 to 20 people according to have me

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: on a given Sunday and I'm faithful to do that and I believe that's what God's assigned me to

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I still am available in churches doing a lot of weekend things related to spiritual gifts and

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: evangelism things that nature but you know the calling and the gift and this doesn't

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: end doesn't cease so we find a way to apply it. That is so good well Dr. Impel Allen and I

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: really do appreciate your time today it's been such a blessing to have you on to hear from your

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_01]: heart but also from your experience on this really important topic within this this bandwidth

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: this framework of spiritual formation to address spiritual gifts so thanks for being with us today

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and look forward to this podcast dropping in the coming weeks. All right. All right guys thanks

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot man thank you. I think it's about ready to walk so that was good time to hear her out there.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. Amen. She's telling it.