Forced Terminations in Calvary Chapel Churches

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the STOKE IT UP podcast everybody. A podcast encouraging you. Yes, you in your journey with God. I'm Alan Stoddard

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to be joined by Kenneth Priest in just a moment. The topic is Forced Terminations in Calvary Chapel Churches

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I can't think of anyone better to talk about this than the one, the only, the legend,

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill Holdridge of Poyamen Ministries

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a brother beloved but he sees a lot of stuff in churches and he gives us a unique

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_03]: nuanced

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Explanation of what this issue looks like in the Calvary Chapel movement. I hope that you'll listen

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I hope that you'll grow and then let us know what you think about this issue. Reach out to us. We would love to hear from you

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: God bless. Let's jump into the conversation

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, alright everybody, I am here with Kenneth Priest and Bill Holdridge. Bill is a

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: pastor beloved within the Calvary Chapel camp and beyond and

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_03]: has a lot of

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: experience with Calvary. I remember Bill when I interviewed you on the Jesus Revolution

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean I got a lot of traffic on that podcast where you told your story about interacting with Chuck Smith

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And the early roots of Calvary. That was so awesome

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's good to have you back on the podcast Bill. Yeah, thanks Ellen and good to meet you Kevin or

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Kenneth, thank you so much. Nice to meet you as well. Yeah. Yeah, you can call him Kevin

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You can call me Alvin if you want it's all good. We go by whatever

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: This messin man

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill I've known Kenneth he's been he's been

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He's been carrying me

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been riding his coattails in many ways

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He's got he's had some great influence since we were seminary students at Southwestern seminary

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Cool over 25 years. I think now 23 24. Yeah, right around there

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Man those friendships are precious. They are happy for you guys. That's awesome

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill we've talked about

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Before how we are still standing in the ministry with all that's going on

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Globally and especially in the West with with pastoral failures and flaws and exposing and just a

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: lack of restoration. I think at times big name pastors that have

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Really either set themselves up for failure or have just made mistakes and

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Have volunteered themselves up. I really appreciate those guys

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But we are in a season where we've got some real issues and we need to talk it out

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So last week we talked with the brother named Shelby Hazard

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's from the Southern Baptist camp and he did research on

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Forced terminations is what they're called within the Southern Baptist camp

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But I thought we need another angle on this because it's an important conversation for churches

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: About what do we do now that we see?

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Either forced terminations or the need for termination and how do we negotiate these

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Waters in the days ahead so I thought I would pick your brain on it and

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Get Kenneth to jump in and and let's start a conversation

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Part of this is a conversation that no one's having. I told my wife yesterday

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I said we're not having the conversations. We're scared to have them now

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't want to really have them because

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if we do we're gonna expose ourselves and we're gonna make are we gonna make the church look bad?

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What do we say now to people that are watching these things in the news or seeing that these things in their community and

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yet we're not saying anything on Sundays at church. I'm not saying we have to say everything

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So so let's walk through this bill. Let us let us

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Let us ask you some questions. What do you see within?

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: non-denominational calvary chapel camps as far as forced terminations

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Well Calvary Chapel is a different

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: scenario in many respects, but primarily because

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no overseeing body that oversees the churches within Calvary chapels

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: There the only oversight is the oversight of the senior pastor

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So when a pastor is allowed when a church is allowed into

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the Calvary Chapel

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: family

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's because the pastor has been affiliated the church never is affiliated and I don't know of any other non-denominational

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Situation that the functions that way so therefore the eyes are on the senior pastor

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the Calvary Chapel Association

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't know exactly how CGN operates on this, but they

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Disaffiliate or affiliate the pastor so that relationship is

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: key

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: To determining whether that's going to be a healthy pastor or an unhealthy one

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But frankly the association doesn't have the bandwidth

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: To have a meaningful connection or relationship with all the pastors in the different regions

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So therefore it's it's got to be something else that provides the accountability

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know like they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got to prevent this rather than try to stop it afterwards

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so termination within Calvary Chapel means that a pastor has disqualified himself

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: ethically or morally and

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore has to be

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Removed from affiliation within Calvary Chapel

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: What happens in the local church context the church of that pastor is a different animal could be it could go different

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of different directions

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The church board may decide to keep the pastor and not

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Terminate him. Whereas he's been disaffiliated by Calvary Chapel. So it's it's a big

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know mix of things that can happen

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That does create a unique

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a real unique context and how Calvary is set up Calvary churches are set up and that that it's a pastor

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: affiliation not a church affiliation and therefore the ramifications of those decisions but

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: When a pastor does get

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Terminated from his church

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the the network's response to that?

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a reporting mechanism that that takes place that the church board can say hey

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Calvary Network, you know this guy did have a moral failure had enough fear y'all need to disaffiliate

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a process for this or you know is it it's just kind of left up for hearsay if other guys in the network

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Find out then they can raise this issue. How's this handled?

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what would typically happen would be regional oversight of the Calvary Chapel Association would become aware of the situation and

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Then they would typically have communication with the church board and

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And decide whether they need to follow through within a disaffiliation on their end

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Typically they would and then they'll try to use their network to find someone who can come in and

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Assume the leadership of that church

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We our ministry is involved with a lot of those

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: With or without the oversight of Calvary Chapel Association and but when we are involved

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We try to we try to ensure that the pastor that does come in

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: In a transition is able to be affiliated with Calvary Chapel

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we do on the on the positive side of things

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so the the flip side of this

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone gets terminated a pastor gets terminated from his church

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm, and it's not for just calls and by just calls. We're talking about a biblical cause

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So the you know had an affair

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Poor ecclesiology heiress, you know whatever so it's not a biblical cause but

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A guy's pastoring a church the board of the church kind of goes, you know what?

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We're tired of you you're out of here, but then they try to bring

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Accusations to the network and they want this guy kicked out of the network as well

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But yet it's not for just cause so how does the network handle this?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well again the network will have to make a determination whether or not it's a legitimate cause for termination

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that within the Calvary Chapel context Kenneth and Alan

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So much depends upon the local church leadership and that board whether they're ethical men

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Where they're godly men where they're biblical men or not and a lot of it depends upon what their bylaws state

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Because as as we all know bylaws are often the most

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Ignored part of any church is functioning until you need them to accomplish your purposes

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so everybody goes into the bylaws to find the reason that they or the the loopholes

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You know where they can get rid of a guy and a good set of bylaws within Calvary Chapel

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Something like this will be stated

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Accusations brought against a senior pastor on the basis of at least two witnesses and not hearsay

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Information in other words, they can't have heard it from someone else and then because they've heard it

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It's now credible witness situation. It's not

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Until he himself has witnessed it and somebody else independent of that has to have witnessed it and then they bring a

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: List of accusations against the senior pastor to the senior pastor directly

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: if he accepts the findings and agrees with it, then he writes a letter of resignation and

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's done. He's he's done because he's disqualified himself if he doesn't agree with it

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: then he is allowed to write a

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Rebottle or a response to it and meet with them if appropriate and if that doesn't provide any resolution then the board will

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Select an outside Calvary Chapel senior pastor

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The senior pastor will select an outside Calvary Chapel senior pastor and then those two

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Selected pastors to be judiciary's on this. They will select another so they got a board of three

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll come in and look at everything and they'll be the ones that make the determination

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And a good set of bylaws will allow for that process so that it's fair

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the innocent earth they're innocent till proven guilty

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But if they are guilty, it's able to be determined and then that group will have a lot of weight in reporting to the

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: CCA

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Organization we looked into it. You know, it's been thorough

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's a valid charge. He needed to be terminated. That's good or not. Yeah

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's in a good set of bylaws

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I mean I read I read sets of bylaws from Calvary temples all the time

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm amazed at how poorly written they are

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, you know, they got to get changed, you know in case something like this happens

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a that's a systemic problem in churches all across North America. I

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Believe it. I believe it

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill do you see in your history with Calvary Chapel?

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you seen where say a group of a small group of people?

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: can tanker a scoop of people they kind of

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_03]: do a

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Behind the scenes let's grumble and pressure enough that we're gonna make the past or miserable

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So he'll leave does that happen in Calvary?

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It can and it has and a lot of times Alan

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's because somebody is

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Appointed to be a board member that's kind of a rogue personality. He's coming from another church

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe he's this has happened several times in my experience where somebody there's an extreme Calvinist comes in and somehow gets on a board and

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they they want

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That position to be the position of the church they want to go in that direction full speed

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not talking about a moderate Calvinist, you know that still allows for the gospel to be preached

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about somebody that means, you know, you've got to be regenerated before you can even understand the gospel

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's what I define as a screen as extreme Calvinist

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they get their position on the board or maybe their thing is they don't like a senior pastor model of leadership

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They think the senior pastor has too much authority

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So they want it to be plurality of elders everyone is equal and vote and influence

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And and so they'll they'll gain traction and they'll politic and they'll

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll do what they can and they eventually get a following that's pretty strong

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: In my view, I think what they're doing is there they're being heretics because they're being divisive

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They're they're bringing people to their own cause

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They're bringing people to their own position so they can influence others and then eventually get political power in order to exact

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Change and I think that that has happened on a number of different

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: In a number of different situations and the pastor does get worn out absolutely worn out

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they think well

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I got a I got a

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Pull up my tent and go someplace else where and shake the dust off my feet and go someplace else where I'm wanted and needed

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that has happened and it's unfortunate in a Calvary Chapel context

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That means that that church is now an elder run church and probably is very different

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Theologically than a typical Calvary Chapel. So that that particular congregation will never become a Calvary Chapel again

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So in the in the that's interesting

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah in the work that's taking place that you've seen having your experience

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you see a lot of non disclosure agreements in the A's?

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this has kind of become a hot topic in some church circles lately of should churches use in the A's right?

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so in dealing with terminations

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's when you see these rise to the surface

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and so in the model that you've set up of how Calvary Chapel

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of is supposed to function and ideally should function in accordance with the bylaws

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If all of a sudden the church slips an NDA and they're on top of this pastor

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's trying to honor the bylaws to bring in these outside

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Perspectives to help, you know resolve this solution

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But yet the church is trying to push this India or maybe

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a young guy and he didn't understand what he was signing and he signed an NDA

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And now his hands caught from this legal documentation

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He's caught between two legal issues the bylaws of the church and

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The other laws of the land both of these are governed by the judicial systems

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen this happening in the Calvary Chapel Network and what's been the resolution of this? I

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Haven't seen that I haven't seen both existing at the same time

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so I'm sure that probably NDAs exist somewhere

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But if they do then I hope that they've had legal

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Advice before putting them together so that there isn't a conflict between the bylaws and the NDA

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I don't know. I haven't had any experience without myself. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Kenneth have you heard of that from?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Within the Southern Baptist Convention. Oh

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean that's you know, that's been a hot topic in SBC churches of this whole issue of NDAs people being terminated

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Asking them to sign an NDA and again bylaws are the same issue

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You go read the bylaws and the church has chosen to function outside

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: How the bylaws have been written and how they're governing so Alan just your example the very beginning where?

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: where deacons are coming in and and

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Subverting the system and taking over and kind of forcing a pastor out and you read the bylaws and the deacons have no authority in the church

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: whatsoever

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And historically this has actually been the case for many southern Baptist churches that the deacons don't have authority

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They're supposed to be servants the bylaws state this but churches begin to function

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: giving deacons authority

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they just kind of presumed leadership assume that responsibility

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And think they're in charge and they get pastors fired all the time and NDA gets involved

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now you've got an NDA that's in contradiction to how the bylaws should function

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And and it is a mess the difficulty of course is the pastor doesn't realize that he has a legal leg to stand on

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: He basically just kind of accepts the NDA takes the six months sever it and walks away and says I don't

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even gonna mess with this and disappears, right?

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've seen it happen and I was just curious if Calvary Chapel has seen this happen

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean Calvary is a little different in this sense that most of the Calvary Chappals are still being pastored by their founding pastor

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and you know you don't have the the typical two or three year

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Tenure at a church and then you know like it's more common in Baptist churches. I understand that

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not as common in Calvary Chapel

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a bigger deal for that guy who's been there for 20 years

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I have to face these false allegations

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But it does happen and it's horrible when it does happen

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to get back to the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing. Yes, you know

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: accountability is not something that can be

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Legislated or mandated

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously we all know that it has to be something that's chosen by the pastor himself

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that a lot of pastors are lonely and I have I have such a great

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Art for that a lot of passage pastors are flying solo. They feel like there's nobody in their corner

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have these kinds of relationships. I've got a great team of guys with poinmen ministries

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We were at a meeting in New Jersey in May and I said guys I've got a less problem

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning I have a flash that tends towards all kinds of hidden sins

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to just talk about it and I want to be brothers with you

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to be my brother and I want to be your brother

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I want us to talk about this as often as we need to whenever we need to and I've got another

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Two guys that I meet with every month one is a mentor of mine another one is a retired 80 year old pastor

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And we meet every every month by zoom for two hours and there's nothing we don't talk about

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think those things those things are chosen now

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean is it will be easy for me just to ignore that type of thing and fly solo, but

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably 18 one says he who isolates himself seeks his own desire. I don't want to be that guy and

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think within Calvary Chappals

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a need for a lot more intentional proactive

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Fellowship meaningful fellowship with other pastors. I really do because a lot of guys are isolated

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill would it be safe to say it like this that the Moses model has morphed into a

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_03]: more communal

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Accountability

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's not go it alone. Like you just said kind of model

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't know. I mean everybody has their own definition of what the Moses model even means

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, I like the biblical Moses model a lot

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know Jethro comes it gives him advice about you know expanding his ministry by working with faithful able man who are

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Hate covetousness and fear God

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Get guys like that around you and you've got a good team

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But if the Moses model means autocratic leadership then nah

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Right can't go there, you know, that's not the way we ought to roll

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I kind of think it depends on what somebody means by the Moses model

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But if somebody is is

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Misinterpreting the intention of senior pastor leadership led churches

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Then yeah, that's gonna that's gonna resort

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in or result in

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation and it's gonna require

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: intentional seeking out other guys

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We what we don't want to be as a good old-boy network

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and a good old-boy network is I know you a little bit and I know you've got you know the three B's

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You've got buildings butts and budgets and so you must be valid

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You must be a good guy and so I'm gonna endorse you as a good guy. I may not know anything about you

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I may not know anything about your marriage how you deal with your inner life how you

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Retain a poverty of spirit and a morning and seeking after righteousness. I may not know anything about you, but

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Look at there a lot of people come to your church

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You got a lot of money coming in and you got all these buildings that you've built

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So you must be you must be a good guy

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's really scary because success can be the most scary thing in the world and

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In spiritual gifting can be a very scary thing

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that because God will anoint me in the pulpit and give me influence with people who think I'm the best thing since sliced bread

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That what I do in my private life does God doesn't care about it

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I if I get there, I have lost the fear of the Lord. I just completely lost it. I've thrown it away

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we don't want and if so the Moses model produces that type of a of an approach to the Christian life

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We're Christians first pastor second. I don't think we just need to live that way

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's good. Yeah, really what you're talking about is the the culture that you create within your church

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely that that church culture

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Is what?

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: breeds

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: The output right if you if you plant a

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Lemon seed you're gonna get a lemon tree not an apple tree

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so whatever you're you're you're sewing there is what's gonna come to fruition

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is a culture issue all together. And so how do we make certain?

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: pastors are

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: creating the right culture to

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: To provide that preventative

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Assurance that you're talking about

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: What what is that culture look like for a senior pastor that wants to make sure that?

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: he's not creating a culture of

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: of

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Autocracity a culture that is going to create where people don't trust him a

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Culture that leads to them wanting to fire him over these things. What are the steps of pastor contain? I

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Think a lot has happened because of our model of what the church is that has developed in this country

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very unhealthy. The goal is to grow your church

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And we do what we need to do to grow the church so growth church growth programs are

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Exponentially increasing all the time seems like but

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What if we stick with the great commandment and the Great Commission?

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: What if that's our aim?

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to be the best God lovers and people lovers that we know that we can be and we want to be the folks that

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: really do make disciples by

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Training them to observe all things that Jesus has commanded us if that's the thing that we're aiming at

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I'm gonna have to be that myself because I'll never be able to do it unless I am that to some degree anyway

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the greatest prevention

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But when we get into grow the church model then the end justifies the means way too often

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's good. So in the midst of if we've created the right culture

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: dynamics

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Group dynamics people dynamics. I mean, let's face it. There's gonna be somebody that rubs somebody the wrong way

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna hit some conflict

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so what's the process was the method of of church resolute conflict resolution within the church and

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We have somewhat we've got the right culture. So this isn't a cultural issue now

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got the right culture

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But someone within the church is creating maybe it is the Calvinist the hyper Calvinist that has come in and so they're trying

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: To create this conflict. How do we build? How do we go about addressing?

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That in a healthy way to ensure that we are

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Being respectful we are loving people

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But yet we are being God-honoring to say what you're doing is

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: divisive and and and leading to conflict in the church. How do we resolve this in a very effective way?

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Kenneth I go right to Titus chapter 3

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Rejected divisive person after the first or second admonition knowing that such a person is warped and is sinning and is self-condemned

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a zero tolerance policy for division

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're gonna you can you can hold the position on

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You can you can hold the position of a hyper Calvinist extreme Calvinist view if you want, but you've got to keep that to yourself

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: If you were pastoring the church and I came to your church and I'm not a Calvinist

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I would I would have to I would be forced to respect your position and not make a big deal out of it and try to

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Make ways the minute somebody does that I

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We the leadership has got to go to that person and say this is not acceptable. This is not tolerable in this church

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't do this here

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if he accepts it and says oh man. I am so sorry. I repent great. We're good

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But if he continues it at all I have the authority

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: From the Holy Spirit to say we're rejecting you you are gone

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Pack your bags find someplace else

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to have a no tolerance policy

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it falls on the pastor and his his board his leaders is overseers whatever you call him

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so again, that's a healthy culture if you've got the culture you can do that now

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me kind of play devil's advocate a little bit. What if I don't have a healthy culture?

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that I believe what you're saying. I want to do that, but I don't have leaders that are gonna support me because

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Grace says we have to we have to be gracious

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Have to we have to we have to be concerned about their opinion even church

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me secular culture today, you know tolerance

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're gonna have to put up with some of this. So how can we lovingly graciously

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Put up with that

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm right there with you. I believe as pastors we need to go in there

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But we don't always have the support

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: From the leadership team to go and have this type of conversation

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, I'm sitting here. I'm sitting here laughing because I know Kenneth

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_03]: My wife sometimes if I say something like really

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Proposy tone she'll go you sound like Kenneth

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: One of those no he doesn't play around

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, can I add Bill sometimes we don't address things in the church because hey, we don't want to stifle growth

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's another shot up. So what do you think about what Kenneth said?

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think there has to be a build-up to being able to to make those kinds of decisions and to do it biblically

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you have to have unity with your leadership and they have to have unity with you

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And if there aren't leaders that have unity with me as the pastor

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Or I with them

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we gotta we've got to do that. We've got to make sure that that happens

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe they're the wrong people. Maybe they need to be replaced over time

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I need to train people and raise them up into the image of christ rather than the image and culture of the world

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe I need to start a school of ministry to make that happen

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's going to take two years before we can have that culture and really be the kind of church

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be but whatever it is. We got to get on this now because

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: If we're if we go there out of tolerance, we're no different than the world

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's good. I mean there's nothing holy about what we do if we've got division in the middle of us

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know earnestly endeavored to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think god has given us the gift of unity and we're the ones that mess it up

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So we can't let that happen

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Bill what I hear you saying and all these conversations is uh, it begins with the pastor

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: living an intentional life

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: To lead his church to be this type of environment

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so and and I think this kind of an environment is the easiest kind of church to pastor

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're focused on the great commission and the great commandments. And this is what we do

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Congregants know this leaders know this eacons know this

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: pastor knows it we're trying to live this way

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, it's not a surprise when we act

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Bipolarly

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's good. I love it

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I do too. I mean, it's the ideal and I am an idealist. I have to admit but

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Should we adopt another ideal other than the biblical one? I don't think so

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Not at all

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_03]: When uh, when I came out of the southern baptist convention

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And still I I always want to caveat that I I still love all my southern baptist friends, man

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean galley you can't do anything without connecting with southern baptist if you're really doing something

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: anyway

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But when I became calvary, I thought wow, this is a new world because you got the moses model and you feel freedom

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: You feel a real pastoral freedom. But what I knew

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Is I don't care what your church polity people will vote with their funding

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_03]: their feet

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Their faith and their future. Sorry for the alliteration and I thought yeah

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_03]: You you can protect yourself

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But you can't do it completely to where you get to do whatever you want

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03]: In a way that you described earlier bill

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, it can actually be a little scary because now

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: As the pastor. Yeah

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I set it up where no one could fire me

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean here. I've seen those bylaws but I've seen those bylaws

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me caveat that you couldn't fire me easily

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so there was a group of outside guys

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: That were not even a part of the church that I gave permission to fire me. These were men I trusted

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they were the this was in the bylaws if I did one of seven things and what and some of our inside elders

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Went to those men and said we've got a problem with allen

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They they could investigate and those five men along with those other elders could fire me

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But they couldn't just show up and fire me one sunday. That's what I was trying to alleviate

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right. I looked back on it and I go it wasn't a perfect scenario because I think that kind of structure is being

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03]: attacked by

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: uh, certain

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_03]: People are within the faith these days because of its abuse within big churches

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Where the pastors have handpicked their own guys

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're not accountable at all

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree and it is a scary thing

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: It scared me. I was like wow

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to live with integrity. Yeah, that's right. We must fear god

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Bill if you were going to give pastors

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe two or three just quick bullet list things that pastors should do

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: To make sure that they are leading well

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And keeping the church healthy and and all that we're talking about with

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Forest terminations and the things related to them. What would you say? And then I want to ask you this

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, what would you say to church members?

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Who are in these churches that can help this healthy church process along?

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm. Wow. So what would you say to pastors top two or three things that bill holdren says

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what? I've always wanted to say this if I had a megaphone. I'd do it

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Two or three things. I wish pastors really would pray about doing

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, I have to take the beam out of my own eye

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So I have to have I have to do a lot of healthy self-talk and

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: introspection and let the holy spirit

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Rean me if he needs to from the word

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Every day, I mean this is to me walking in the spirit is an emergency situation, Alan

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if I don't that means I'm going to live that day in default mode and you don't want to be around me in default mode

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I think that's the first thing it's just uh

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: To walk with the lord myself and then and then the guys around me. Are they are they walking with the lord?

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Really do I know them?

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Do I know their marriages, you know, do they feel free to come to me and tell me anything they want to do

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I talk to them?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And tell them things that are

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know hard to say to other people other men

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Do we have that kind of relationship create that culture?

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And that culture will create an authenticity and then

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say thirdly and I'm speaking for myself here. I need to be authentic in the pulpit

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: If if I'm always saying you second person plural

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm never saying we

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning I'm part of the same thing. I'm telling you this sermon that I'm preaching to you this morning

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Is a sermon for me just as much as it is for you

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And helping the people understand that that the pastor that is and the leaders that are in their church

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: they're human beings

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And just like jesus was tempted in all poids yet without sin

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We are tempted in all points and sometimes with sin

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just need to be authentic about that. Why should that surprise anybody now? We don't stay in sin

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't remain in sin. We're dealing we're willing to deal with with uh

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: chronic sin so that it doesn't become that

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be real. I mean, it's got to be authentic. I'd say read authentic Christianity by race deadman

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Make that a book. There's a that's an important book in your church. You know, it's a great book

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I would say that in congregants

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: They too. I mean if if the church is filled with authentic relationships that are fostered by

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Authentic small group gatherings and people wanting to get together for the purpose of real biblical fellowship

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And sharing lives with each other

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a culture that can help the pastor more than anything else because they're there to grow

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: They're there to learn and I look at you know, just like something like counseling for example

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to call it counseling as a pastor. I like to call it a discipleship opportunity

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that discipleship opportunity is listening to people for an hour

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And then praying with them not saying much of anything

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's actually instructing them in something that's really

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: important for them to learn that they somehow missed in their

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Their personal catechism over the years, you know

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Like forgiveness for example, you know, it's a huge issue in the church. Have we learned how to forgive each other?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And do we forgive everybody of everything like Jesus said so let's teach people how to forgive

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it and let's be forgivers ourselves

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are the things that help congregants. I think more than anything else is is for them to live the christian life

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're the ones that help them

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Understand it. We're the equipers of the saints for the work of the ministry

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're the pastor teachers that do that

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I understand the word equipping correctly, it means to set a broken bone

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a restoration to health

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Or it means to equip as in giving them tools that they need to do what they're supposed to do

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: If that's my ministry if that's what I'm supposed to do then let's get at it

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's stay at that for myself for the team around me and for the congregants and we'll have a healthy situation

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_03]: overtime question

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: bill, do you think the church

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Does well

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Or even tries to do well on restoring

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_03]: pastors

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_03]: That are in situations that can be restored. Let's not talk the ones that can't there's some that obviously can't

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But are there situations that you say to yourself when you look around you go this could have been worked out

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: The guy didn't have to leave

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean there are situations. I've seen like that. There are also situations that they did have to leave but

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: they still

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Are potential

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: candidates to move forward and continue in ministry

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, maybe not as a senior pastor or a lead pastor, but maybe maybe they haven't disqualified themselves to that level

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard breaking. Kenneth. What do you think?

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, I believe you know sometimes, you know, daryl eldridge one of our mentors he used to say

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: The church is one of the worst places that you know, we shoot our wounded

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: um, and there are times where there are

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: individuals who

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Might need to take a season off

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But they could be restored

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: into that role

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Of whatever level they were at and even the level of senior pastor

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: there are times

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: when

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And this has kind of been the issue like southern baptist or dealing with today

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: where people have just they have

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Disqualified themselves from ministry from any service of ministry and yet

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: The church doesn't

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Take a stand on the issue

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The church allows them to just leave on their own and go do the same thing somewhere else

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And and just perpetuate the problem. Uh, and so you know, I've seen it go both ways for sure

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: There but there's definitely a healthy way to restore people in ministry that we

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes the church when I say we come at the church at large

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We just kind of take it's a lot more work

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: than it's worth so I don't want to mess with it

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: so

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just kick them out and not worry about it and who cares what happens to their wife their kids

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the family

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It it hurts the church and it hurts the individual

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Where we could redeem that

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And have a great story

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you think about hosé and gomer

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know of any story of of restoration

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That we have uh is in that beautiful picture that's there and so

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there is definitely a time that we could do that

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I had two I'm two situations like that just this last year one was a situation where the guy

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Is not able to be restored

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There would have to be a complete fundamental remaking of everything he is

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh, you know, he's a narcissist on steroids. It was horrible

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then another guy he could be restored but right now he's he's playing quiet

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He's playing possum and he's not

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not open to input

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think he's doing some things that will help one of the thoughts I have about this whole thing is

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: upon exit

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we help these whoever they are congregant or leader

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we help them understand what the terms of re-engagement are?

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and what we want them to do

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: When they want to come back and give them some hope

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then uh, you know, basically put it in their court what they need to do but we provide the support

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We've seen church discipline situations just normal in the congregation where it's been handled that way and

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been really good. They've come back and and actually been

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Measurably more fruitful than they were before they fell. Yeah, that's good

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah, my my motive been asking is uh

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I think with all that we've seen go on in the last

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Four to five years probably 10

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Flee years with some of the biggest names that I would have never thought in the million years

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That would have went down like this ministry's gone. I mean

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It scares me. I'm like wow if those guys are gone. I better watch myself

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Not that I have not disqualified myself in that manner, but it does put me

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_03]: It just it pause and I'm you're everyone's seeing it and we're not talking about it in churches

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_03]: God is what I believe he's sifting his church

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I believe he has said judgment begins at the house of god and if you're not going to do it

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do it for you. I'll give you warning signs

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't think we're saying stuff like that because we're scared to even bring it up

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like you want to go to your staff now and say

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I want to do background checks all over again on all you guys

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to know what's going on because this is important

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I don't know. I'm a little nervous about it

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_03]: question

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I know I keep going. I'm sorry. I got to ask this

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think do you guys believe?

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a community impact because of all this. What do you think people that don't come to church are saying to themselves these days

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_03]: When they see all this stuff bill, what do you think?

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what's the standard mantra?

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The church is full of hypocrites. So that just reinforces that opinion. Absolutely

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I told yourself

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, you look at the overarching uh the

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Um

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The dissatisfaction level the lack of trust for pastors today compared to 20 years ago

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That you know, purey all the research studies that have been done

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: They say we no longer trust the pastor. We no longer

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that today in the post christian era

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: The when they see something like that happen at church, I don't even know if they they think hypocrites anymore. They just kind of go

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So what?

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no difference between the church and the world

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet the church is called to be different

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when people say so what about the church?

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They're dismissing the difference that is supposed to be there and it's because

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They are absolutely right

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The church is not a different culture than the world's culture

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and so

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So what why should they get engaged with the church?

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just one more social place for them to go

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: If they desire to be social with people

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But what if we flip that thing on its ear and we say that hypocrisy is just it's pretending

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is. So we're not going to be a church of pretenders

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We come in and we are who we are. We live the way we're supposed to live. We've got holes

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You know in our bulletproof vest and and we're vulnerable and and we're like everybody else

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we just need the grace of God all of us equally and let's give it to each other

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's receive it from the Lord and let's give it to each other generously

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's be a thriving community of sinners saved by grace

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, makes a difference doesn't but when that's our outward testimony

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're telling the community this

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, this is exactly who we are and you know, we are trying to be different

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But we get it man. There's there's issues here. There's issues everywhere

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're going to let our issues filter through the love of christ

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes us radical difference the the question that that you know, we like to ask and Alan

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I've had this conversation a number of times

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But in consulting with churches the question I like to ask is just

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And bill I deal with churches that are in decline and need revitalization going and asking questions

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00]: If your church failed to exist tomorrow

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Would this community notice a difference?

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really what we're trying to get to the church is supposed to be a church of irresistible influence

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be a church that's making a difference in its community context

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've got to be a group of people that are making a difference

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to be the the light that is shining bright on the hillside

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. Amen. Well, amen bill. Thanks for joining us today man. Thanks for letting us just get the topic out

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we've said some things in this podcast that would need to be said and probably a lot more

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I I love this conversation

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know you brothers your hearts are burdened about what we're singing go on

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And and I appreciate you coming on bill. Love you man. Yeah, thanks Alan

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And cat uh, Kenneth it's been great to hear you you and I have the same heart

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I know island has this heart too for church revitalization

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why we started the ministry

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We do is we wanted to see churches healthy revitalized revitalized maybe for the first time and it's all about that

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big fan of uh, tom reiner and I'm sure you probably read some of his stuff and

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean just the whole movement in that direction. I just applaud you for being part of it

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And uh, man, it's just it's a huge need

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely. Well, thanks for that bill and definitely thank you for your time today. We've enjoyed having you on the podcast

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you. Thank you everybody you guys it's been great and ellen thanks for bringing it up. You you had some

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Courage to do it, but I appreciate it. You know, it does mean I talked about

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, amen

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I was gonna I know we got to hang up

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I was gonna tell you that uh, I did hear a story the other day about how cgn

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Did have to call out a leader

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was not easy

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But it did happen and we need to call each other out. Well, okay

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, that was just on my brain

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Love you guys out there. Keep stoking people up. We want healthy churches

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_03]: We want to help the gospel go out through the great commission of jesus christ

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And we need to change the narrative on this conversation

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's put a pen in it

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll come back to this another time because I thought about a hundred different questions

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to ask both of you pastors

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I may write those out and try to get you back on and answer some questions that are the next level of this conversation

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But we will see all of you next time on the stoke it up podcast. God bless

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_03]: later