The Answer To Sexual Brokenness Is Not Sexual Liberation | Fighting Sexual Objectification pt 4

[00:00:00] My name is Scott Wilberg. My name is Lindsay Chase. My name is Michael Riley. My name is Kayle Lyd.

[00:00:07] And I am Aaron Savato. Welcome to The GoodLion PodClass, A show where we get a small group of students together with a teacher to learn and discuss theology and the Christian life, and then we share those conversations with all of you.

[00:00:20] Today we're diving into part 4 of our current class, Fighting Sexual Objectification Together. Today's episode is titled, The Answer to Sexual Brokenness Is Not Sexual Liberation. Last week we looked at the trend of men blaming objectification on the women who are victims.

[00:00:38] This week we're going to examine the other side of the coin, women blaming the problem completely on men, and trying to fix the problem through a new wave of feminism that teaches women that the only way to stop yourself from being objectified is to objectify yourself.

[00:00:54] We hope you enjoy this discussion. Thanks so much for listening. Here's the podcast. Here's the question, are men the only ones responsible for sexual purity? Here's the other side of the debate. We say, oh it's all just the men. They're just a bunch of lusting perverts.

[00:01:12] There's this new wave of feminism that says a girl should be able to wear whatever the hex she wants and not be objectified unless she wants to be.

[00:01:21] There's been a huge campaign lately called Free the Nipple, where people are basically saying if men are allowed to show their breasts, their chest, then shouldn't women be able to.

[00:01:31] There's nothing sexual about the nipple, but the interesting thing is we have models that are campaigning on this campaign are this free the nipple campaign.

[00:01:41] And the way that they're posting is a sexualized post. It's saying free the nipple and it's a very sexual pose and a very seductive pose and the way they're trying to make this statement.

[00:01:50] And basically there's this idea that, you know, it's all on the men women should be allowed to be as sexual as they want.

[00:01:57] Once Brooklyn and I saw a feminist friend of ours post on Instagram. She was clothe, but grabbing her chest and sticking out her tongue for the camera and the caption read this.

[00:02:07] And I cleaned up the language because it was a little, little dicey. So it's really freaking important to understand that believing you should cover up the skin that you live in and still self hatred, insecurity and justification of objectification.

[00:02:23] Women should not have to cover up their bodies. Women are not inherently deserving of assault because of the skin that they're born in. Your body says nothing about what you deserve or what anyone is allowed to say or do to you.

[00:02:35] My entire life, I was taught that having the body of a female meant that if I didn't cover up, I deserved what I got.

[00:02:40] But guess what? Hey ladies, grab your privates, do what you want with your skin and brace your sexuality, be whatever you are and never let anyone tell you to stop questioning this misogynistic hellhole of a society.

[00:02:53] Someone else has messed up the leaves, do not say anything about who you are or what you deserve. So here's the thing about that. I think there's a lot of truth in what she said, but mixed in with the truth were lies.

[00:03:05] So I'm going to go through it. She says, women shouldn't have to cover up because in reality, the truth is God made us to be naked without sin. There'd be no need to cover anything. So she gets that right. Women shouldn't have to cover up.

[00:03:19] However, sin does exist and that creates a problem. The second thing she says is women are not inherently deserving of assault because of the skin they are born in.

[00:03:27] I say yes and amen to that. That's fantastic. Then she says your body says nothing about what you deserve or what anyone is allowed to say or do to you.

[00:03:34] Again, I say yes. That's awesome. But then she says my entire life, I was taught that having the body of a female meant that if I didn't cover up,

[00:03:42] I deserve what I got. That's tragic. But I know for a fact that many girls are taught this and that's not the way of Jesus. But then afterwards she loses it. She says grab yourself, flaunt your sexuality do whatever you want, be whoever you want.

[00:03:55] This is the song that singers have been singing for ages. It's my least Iris. It's my party and I can do what I want.

[00:04:01] Love who I want kiss who I want. My wife and I were surprised to see there were so many girls in our youth group who liked her post. They even commented high fives and fire emojis and in support and saying yes, you go girl.

[00:04:15] These are Christ's following girls who love Jesus. But here's the problem. If you have a glass of poison and put a little bit of truth in it, it's still poison.

[00:04:22] I don't think feminism is a bad thing if it's defined as the fight for people to see women as equally valued by God and made in his image.

[00:04:29] Jesus fights for that absolutely. But we see in society this new wave of feminism that thinks that the answer to objectiveification is flaunting sexuality. Things like going out and doing topless protests. How are we fighting objectification by objectifying ourselves?

[00:04:45] That's the mentality of a lot of the women in society. And he says, but here's the problem. That's not a real solution. If anything, it's a defeatist solution. It's women saying because I'm a woman, I know that this misogynistic society will objectify me no matter what.

[00:05:00] Therefore, I will objectify myself on my own terms. I will objectify myself before a man can. It will be my choice and I will enjoy it.

[00:05:09] I get to choose when I'm objectified. But here's the problem with that. God never intended for humans to objectify one another. It doesn't matter who's choice it is. I would say this.

[00:05:19] The answer to sexual brokenness is not sexual liberation. This makes sense in anything. Like if my leg is broken, is the answer to swing it around and put more pressure on it. Absolutely not. Brokenness needs a healer.

[00:05:31] The answer to sexual brokenness is submitting to God's design and intention for sexuality. How many of you guys grew up in youth group? You guys go to youth group? Yes. Have you guys heard the classic analogy of how sexes like fire and inside the fire pit?

[00:05:45] It's a good thing, but outside it burns down the forest. Yeah. Classic analogy. But it's so true. The reality is like it says in scripture, humans can't hold a fire in their hands and not get burned.

[00:05:56] Now this is the part of the talk where I am going to make an illustration that I call the sexual sandwich. And I hope that's not the only thing that you walk away remembering is the name of this illustration.

[00:06:09] But here's what I want to say about this. Okay, how many guys like sandwiches? You guys like sandwiches? Okay. What is the intent of the sandwich? Anybody? Why does someone make a sandwich? What's the intent of it?

[00:06:23] To eat it. Right. It's for someone to eat the sandwich and enjoy it. Now picture this. Okay.

[00:06:30] Someone makes a sandwich and the intent is he makes it for someone else to eat and enjoy. Well, then there's a group of people. Let's just say maybe a very misogynistic group of people that say we're going to abuse this sandwich.

[00:06:44] We know what it's for. We're going to stick it on the ground and we're going to squish it with our feet. That's what sandwiches are for.

[00:06:49] And then there's another group. We can say maybe a more feminist group that says that's not what sandwiches are for. We'll show you what they're for.

[00:06:55] And then they take the sandwich and dip them in paint and try to paint a house with it. Neither one of those ways are what sandwiches are for, right?

[00:07:02] Who with me like that's not the design of the sandwich and in the same way humanity needs to understand that sexuality was designed by God for a specific reason.

[00:07:13] It was designed for marriage and we have one side that says sexuality is something just for my pleasure. It's just something to be abused.

[00:07:20] It's just something where I take what I want and I get what I want. And then on another side that says, I get to be the master of my own objectification since I can't deny that I'm going to be objectified.

[00:07:30] And I'm just going to objectify myself on my terms whenever I want it's it's all wrong. It's all wrong. It's ignoring that sexuality was designed for specific purpose and believing this way and acting in this way dishonors the image of God.

[00:07:44] Let's take a moment to break and discuss any questions on this or any. Any things that you'd like to add to the conversation. Anybody? A couple things came online and that's why I pulled out the book that I've been reading.

[00:08:07] It's good. It's called New Sexuality by Todd Wilson. And in the book he talks about how we are sex the way that we're sexed as male and female because that is a much less look at it that way as a blessing from God.

[00:08:22] And when you were talking about your friend that posted the Instagram post, I thought of that.

[00:08:27] And I think she was getting away from the fact that like yes you're a woman and God's kingdom but at the same time I think that what you're saying is like if I objectify myself.

[00:08:38] It's okay because it's some sort of misogynistic movement. Well, objectify me will objectify me things what he said. Yeah. So I think she was getting away from the fact that like the fact that she's not just like pointing to finger her.

[00:08:49] I was just like saying that this happens all over with so many people. This is just a specific example of use. Is she's getting away from the fact that she is a woman and that is a blessing and there is something to that right?

[00:09:04] Which kind of ties into my second thing in the sense you were talking about the sandwich.

[00:09:09] And what has happened is that sex has become more of a hobby and recreational recreational and something that is so easy to attain with like I mentioned earlier just the all the dating apps and all this stuff. And just swipe right? Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:30] And what has happened is we've got away from what sex has actually meant to unite one person and to procreate and to multiply the kingdom of God right?

[00:09:40] And I think until we get back to that point it's not it's not I mean it's just going to be viewed as recreation. Yeah, and that just goes back to sin coming in the world and ruining it. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:52] But let me ask you ladies here. So like my assessment of kind of this new way of a feminism that says I'm going to be objectified therefore I will decide on what turns on objectified do you think that's an accurate assessment that I'm making or is there any push back you've make on that or am I misrepresenting kind of where the cultures that right now what what do you guys think I'd love your perspectives.

[00:10:17] I would say that that's a thing and one one is since came to mind of just like, okay. I was the question about what we're talking about.

[00:10:28] Okay, so my question was do you think my assessment of where cultures are right now where the kind of this new wave of feminism that honestly a lot of young women are adopting because of social media and just the celebrity culture.

[00:10:42] This idea of women are going to be objectified therefore they should just own it and just they should decide when they get to be objectified. So they're going to dress as sexy as they can and post it the most sexy things they can because it's it's their sexuality that they want to own and therefore they control you know they're going to objectify them but they're going to control how it happens.

[00:11:03] Yes, it actually brings two points together that I was going to make several times just in having. I have an example of a friend that I've noticed a couple times just like fall into.

[00:11:17] Like she's the whole very very strong beliefs when it came to how she should be treated and how she should be viewed and then just after surrounding herself with men who don't treat her like that.

[00:11:28] She kind of got like she decides to herself, I'm talking about that she started falling into dressing. Less modest and going to places that weren't as safe when it came to the people she was around not like not putting the blame on her.

[00:11:42] What I'm saying is which brings them my other point like men we need you guys as friends that surround us to be those examples of what we should be going for as well.

[00:11:53] So one of the reasons she fell so hard I think is because of the men telling her that those around her telling her how she should be treated and then yeah she you yourself as that and the other people that she followed social media and the people that she was happy.

[00:12:08] That's a great point I think so I remember talking to a group of my high school boys and I was a youth pastor and these boys were quite often going on pictures on Instagram of girls where they were posted.

[00:12:22] And they were posting and ways that were seductive and they were liking those photos and leaving comments you know fire emojis and things like that.

[00:12:28] And what I said to those guys is what you're doing by doing that is your you're allowing those girls to continue in that negative way of thinking like you're just fueling the fire of culture that tells them the only way they can be loved.

[00:12:42] The only way they can be accepted is by performing and acting sexual and by you hitting like and leaving comments you're basically telling them that's true.

[00:12:52] And how much better is it for a guy to surround the girl and make her feel accepted and love and like she's a sister and not put any pressure on her to act that way or dress that way.

[00:13:05] And in fact like what I would encourage even guys listening to this like if you know girls that are dressing this way and acting this way because it's honestly and girls I would love correct me if I'm wrong on this but I just noticed from talking to high school kids.

[00:13:21] Often times it's this it's not this like feminist idea of you know I am hot and I'm just going to do whatever I want because I'm hot.

[00:13:29] It's actually this deep rooted insecurity and brokenness of thinking I want a guy to notice me so desperately and I want to be accepted.

[00:13:37] I want to be loved and when I go in social media I see how many likes this girl gets and I see what she posts and how little she's wearing.

[00:13:44] So if I want that attention I've got to do this and it's the only way I'll ever be noticed and that just breaks my heart I think how great would it be for guys in these girls lives to be the big brothers or the little brothers I don't know depending on age but to be brothers and say hey you don't need to do that like your love your value like for exactly who you are like you don't need to dress that way you don't need to post those things like.

[00:14:06] You're you're my sister in Christ like you don't need to do that I don't know I just I think that if more men stood up and told girls that and didn't feel the fire and support that broken system.

[00:14:18] The church would be a lot more where it needs to be I don't know and it's not so easy. I'm just very independent so when like the feminist feminism movement like I don't like move into that because.

[00:14:34] I'm also super passionate and so if I like I know like to not help myself in that position of like going down the wrong route I don't put myself into it. So it's hard to answer your question but.

[00:14:49] Well, where does your mind go in this discussion like what are just the thoughts in your head when you hear these things that we're talking about.

[00:14:56] Or maybe like what would you say to girls listening you know I want them to surround themselves with like other girls and I think it not the girls that are wearing two pieces of clothing but.

[00:15:12] I like I have I've when I look on social media I follow a lot of influencers and I found myself for a while like trying to be like them.

[00:15:23] Not for the sake of like likes but just because I thought it was cool and then when I realized I was doing that I had to like had to move myself back and stop.

[00:15:35] And but there's also so many of those influencers that are really good influences right and so right there's nothing wrong with being an influencer it's how are you stewarding your influence.

[00:15:45] So I would say like a girl that's I don't even know like just a girl in general that if you surround yourself with girls that have a good mindset of life and of themselves then they're going to feed into you whether they know you're not in a positive way and if you don't.

[00:16:03] If you don't abuse the platforms that you have they will grow yourself and the people around you know you're killing it you're doing great.

[00:16:13] I love it thank you so much that's that's really good and I think that you're hitting on the head like it's about the right kind of influence like how are we influencing one another and every single one of us is able to influence each other in positive ways or negative ways and just by.

[00:16:30] Whether it's guys or girls like surrounding one another is brothers and sisters and just pointing each other to the things that are good things that are true.

[00:16:37] Like the same thing I say that our community group does like the way that we all support and love on another regardless of what we're wearing that day like it doesn't affect or impact anything.

[00:16:46] It's it's about this genuine like brotherhood and sisterhood that's that's what the church is called to be anybody else got anything before move on or.

[00:16:54] I was just to the point of the I guess the same much analogy and then having your you're making to the point of sexual liberation is in the response sexual brokenness I kind of see as like almost like sexual liberation being a response like some people see sexual liberation being responses sexual repression.

[00:17:17] And they don't even know what brokenness is and with going with the sandwich analogy that the people that paint the same much on the wall haven't ever even seen someone eat a sandwich properly.

[00:17:28] Wow, and so that's what I'm trying to think like going back to I think it was a we talked about earlier about the like absolutely there's really no absolute truth apart from Jesus.

[00:17:40] And so without Jesus in the conversation and like or just the ethics of Jesus being presented like. Same which is being paid on the walls yeah stop it on sandwiches knowing knows what they're doing.

[00:17:53] If they don't have the influence of Jesus saying how having a sacrificial love other people because we don't get it on. And so that's what I kind of like when you're saying is like I'm sure the girl that was posting on that made that post.

[00:18:11] Probably I don't know if she was a Christian not Westy. Well she at one point she would identify as a Christian but at this point now yeah okay so maybe even even within the church he made out of even has seen a proper way to view sexuality.

[00:18:25] I think you're hitting the nail in the head like a lot of people that I've seen struggle with this either they didn't have a dad in their life or they had parents who didn't really model like what marriage and love even looks like and there's a lot of brokenness and adultery and that kind of thing.

[00:18:43] I've seen the kids who come from these homes they're the ones who are the most likely to drift into these negative patterns.

[00:18:51] Yeah and like no one really knows or like even me probably don't I don't even know the brokenness inside of me but to have the have Jesus kind of tell me that that's kind of what and having the Bible and the New Testament and all those ethic kind of dictate what that is that's where.

[00:19:09] I think that's where you can finally see brokenness healed as through Jesus. That's awesome. Yeah it's really good. Anybody else in if not will move on? I have a comment like that. Go for it.

[00:19:22] Talking to what Scott said like bringing it back to the story in judges it's like like this went on back in this day because like one of the questions I had was like the girls like didn't.

[00:19:34] I was like I was making a same house like the girls didn't have a saying what happened. Yeah. Right because I was asking um but it's like these girls were so used to this happening that it wasn't anything new to them and yeah.

[00:19:51] That's still happened today and not I mean in this case like in these cases but also in simple like day to day activities. Yeah.

[00:20:00] Now I've seen I've seen so many girls who grew up in like really toxic environments where basically their whole life the message they got was you're an object and you're only just meant to like make men happy and you need to be like sexy for them

[00:20:15] And that's like that's your whole role as a woman in the world is just to be that.

[00:20:20] And the hard thing for what for me as a youth pastor was you know I would only get to talk to those kids like maybe one or two hours a week when the rest of the time their school and their families and the TV and social media that is the message is being pumped into them 24 seven.

[00:20:38] So it's even more important why we as Christians need to carry this message to our friends and to our family when we see people acting this way we need to love them enough to speak out and always love always truth and love never judgment never you know

[00:20:54] You need to cover up what's wrong with you like but just like really taking the time to explain to people you don't need to act this way I think of I think of Jesus the Bible says that he was the friend of sinners and he was known for hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes like that's who he spent his time with man I mean the Bible doesn't go into detail about what kind of conversation Jesus had with the prostitutes, but I would imagine that it wasn't you know

[00:21:21] You see straight enough like what are you doing prostituting yourself that's terrible I don't you know that's not what the Torah says I see Jesus is somebody who's spending time with these people who are just fully immersed in sin but his mentality is love and and I could just imagine Jesus spending enough time with the prostitutes just sitting down eating with her at a table with other people and and showing her love and and brotherly love and then to be able to say to her like you know there was a prostitute that he did know name Mary to say to her like Mary like you're

[00:21:51] so loved and you're so precious and you're so valued by God you don't need to sell your body on the street like God has so much more for you follow me

[00:22:00] Like that's the kind of hard conversations we need to have with our friends and yeah, they're awkward and they're hard

[00:22:06] But I think that the more we can call people out of their darkness and into the light and do it in way that's loving like the better off will be so Just moving on

[00:22:16] We got to ask the question how can we whether we're a guy or a girl Look into our hearts and find the answer to this we need to ask the question what kind of culture are we creating with how we're living

[00:22:30] Seeing acting and speaking so we help shape the culture around us through conversations social media posts And even social media likes how we treat one another Everything we say and do and pack someone else around you. So I would say this to the men guys

[00:22:47] We need to partner together on this any time a young man looks at a woman and sees an object He is working together with the enemy in the spirit of the culture of Pharaoh and Satan

[00:22:57] However any time a woman decides to address or act in a way to lure men to herself or draw sexual attention to our body She's working with the enemy and contributing to that same culture, but on the flip side

[00:23:08] Any time a woman looks at a man and sees an object, you know man crush Monday

[00:23:12] She is working together with the enemy in the spirit of the culture of the enemy and anytime a man decides to dress or act in a way to lure a woman to himself our draw sexual attention to

[00:23:24] To himself our to draw sexual attention to his body. He is working with the enemy as well Like I mean and honestly we look on social media today and we see guys doing the exact same thing that girls are doing guys

[00:23:37] Also are trying to present them in a way that's highly sexual when a woman objectifies a man or a man objectifies himself By the way, he dresses or acts or flirt or speaks. It's not about it being a man's fault or a woman's fault

[00:23:49] It's that we are human and we're made by God for relationship with him and one another We need to work together on this we need to as men and women

[00:23:58] Recognize this is not a man's battle or a woman's battle. It's our battle. We need to love one another through this battle So before we finish this episode I want to play clip from a guy named John Markkummer one of our favorite pastures here at Goodline

[00:24:18] John Mark has a fantastic video on YouTube simply entitled what is sex and I think he does a great job Breaking down the idea of sexuality and sex itself what it is and so I think this would be the perfect place

[00:24:33] To put the clip as we finish out this episode and I think it'll help set the ground work for the episodes to come So without further ado here's John Markkummer

[00:24:46] So I find that there's a ton of talk right now in the world with my friends with my family my neighborhood about sex and about what sex is And I also find at least as a follower of Jesus that there's a cosmic gap between culture at large

[00:25:00] Definition of sexuality and God's definition by that. I mean from the scriptures As Jesus would define it as the biblical authors would define it so basically as I read it Culture at large defines sex as recreational play between two consenting adults

[00:25:17] So it's just physical it's just the biological coupling of two bodies for sexual release and What's the big deal as long as this between two consenting adults if it's mutually pleasurable?

[00:25:28] What in the world is the big deal? It's just play for grown-ups and then the church often comes along and says All right, here's all the rules. Here's where you can do it and here's where you can't do it

[00:25:38] But they buy into culture as definition of what sex is and then basically say

[00:25:43] Well, you can do it but only in marriage and over the way only marriage in a man and a woman not a man and a man or a woman or a woman and a woman

[00:25:48] And to most of us that's just non-sensical if you're not a follower of Jesus you hear that You think what what kind of crazy Uneducated traditional outdated thing is that that makes no sense

[00:26:01] But reality we have to get behind it to the definition of what sex is so as I read the scriptures As I read the teachings of Jesus Here's how I understand sex in Genesis chapter two the word eccard is used that in sexuality two people become

[00:26:15] Eccard or it can be translated one flesh This is a graphic Way to word that basically means when it's put together with this word flash Fused together at the deepest level that insects a man and a woman come together and are fused together at the deepest level

[00:26:32] It is the bonding of two people into one entity body and soul physical and Spiritual because there's no way to bifurcate the two so it's actually a much higher view of sex than cultures culture

[00:26:46] Basically says hey, it's just play. It's just biological what's the big deal God says whoa whoa No, it's way more than that. It's two people who become one entity and then over and over again Enjoy and express love for one another through sexuality now inside of marriage

[00:27:04] This is beautiful because it it takes two people and it doesn't let them drift apart It keeps them together it keeps them at cod or one but outside of marriage

[00:27:13] This can be dehumanizing because it can turn people into objects for basically self gratification and then every time you walk away From a sexual partner

[00:27:23] It's as if you tear at caught as if part of you is lost and you do that enough times and it starts to hollow you out From the inside so I have the following of Jesus

[00:27:33] Think that we need a higher view of sex than culture at large is not a lower view We need to get back to the mysterious Beautiful powerful reality of what happens when a man in the woman Thanks for listening to episode four of this podcast

[00:27:53] We'd like to thank John Mark Comer for his phenomenal work that he's created on the topics of sexuality and relationships You can find more of this great content in his book and sermon series both have the same name Loveology

[00:28:09] Stay tuned for next week's episode when we ask the male and female students in the class What can people of the opposite gender do to help their fellow followers of Christ fight

[00:28:19] Objectification we hope that this class has been helpful to you and we'd like to produce many more if you want to support the work and help us make more great Pod classes check out good lion.io

[00:28:31] slash support also if this episode has stirred up any questions in you We'd love to do a Q&A episode responding to your questions in this series So if you can send a question to our Instagram account good lion.io or send an email to

[00:28:47] GoodLionNetwork at gmail.com We'd love to respond to your questions The good lion podcast is a production of CGM or Calvary Global Network and has said creative We are a nonprofit podcasting ministry run by team of volunteers that seeks to bring quality

[00:29:06] Jesus focus content to the body of Christ For more awesome podcast content as well as articles educational resources and more Check out our website goodlion.io Thanks guys and remember Never stop learning