What should we do with our doubts? - ft. Dominic Done
*The GoodLion PodcastOctober 09, 2020
4
01:03:1557.94 MB

What should we do with our doubts? - ft. Dominic Done

🎙️ Aaron Salvato🎙️ Aaron SalvatoHost
🎙️ Brian Higgins🎙️ Brian HigginsCo-Host

Aaron invites pastor and author Dominic Done onto the show to discuss questions about faith and doubt. 


Question asked: 


1. What has been your biggest crisis of faith and how did you overcome it?


2. Growing up in the faith can cause a lot of doubts when you start to grow older because you can feel like your faith isn’t YOURS. How can “Church born Christians” combat these feelings?


3. How should members of the church address so many young people walking away from the faith when they are on their own?


4. When will that difficulty disappear? When will it spontaneously not be difficult to believe in something you can't see?


5. Is it Blasphemous to doubt or wrestle with questions that God IS who he says He is?


6. Q: Is ALL faith good? Is ALL religion relevant?


All this and more in today's episode!





This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodlionpod.substack.com


00:00:01 --> 00:00:04 Hey everybody, welcome once again to the Good Lion Podcast.

00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 I am here with Dominic Doan.

00:00:06 --> 00:00:07 How's it going, man?

00:00:07 --> 00:00:08 It's good.

00:00:08 --> 00:00:13 I'm currently in this crazy smoky weather here in Portland.

00:00:13 --> 00:00:13 You know,

00:00:13 --> 00:00:17 we have these wildfires that have been going for the last week

00:00:17 --> 00:00:18 or so.

00:00:18 --> 00:00:19 And yeah,

00:00:19 --> 00:00:20 man,

00:00:20 --> 00:00:25 the air quality I found out yesterday is literally the worst of

00:00:25 --> 00:00:26 any city on earth.

00:00:29 --> 00:00:29 You know,

00:00:29 --> 00:00:33 they have like these markers for it where if you're like,

00:00:33 --> 00:00:34 you know,

00:00:34 --> 00:00:34 in the 50s,

00:00:34 --> 00:00:35 it's okay.

00:00:35 --> 00:00:36 That's like New York City.

00:00:36 --> 00:00:37 If you're like 100,

00:00:37 --> 00:00:39 then it's kind of dangerous where,

00:00:40 --> 00:00:40 you know,

00:00:40 --> 00:00:41 maybe it's Shanghai.

00:00:41 --> 00:00:46 Well, we've been like in the 400s, unhealthy air quality.

00:00:46 --> 00:00:48 So it's kind of surreal, man.

00:00:48 --> 00:00:50 It's like a scene from Blade Runner or something.

00:00:50 --> 00:00:52 What a historic time to be doing ministry.

00:00:52 --> 00:00:53 That's, that's crazy.

00:00:54 --> 00:00:54 Oh man.

00:00:55 --> 00:00:55 Yeah.

00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 It's like 2020 is the gift that keeps on giving.

00:00:58 --> 00:01:00 So yeah.

00:01:00 --> 00:01:01 Best year ever.

00:01:01 --> 00:01:02 That's where we are.

00:01:02 --> 00:01:02 Best.

00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 Well, dude, it's so good to have you on the show.

00:01:06 --> 00:01:07 For those of you guys who don't know,

00:01:07 --> 00:01:11 Dominic is the lead pastor at Westside Jesus Church.

00:01:12 --> 00:01:12 Is that correct?

00:01:12 --> 00:01:13 That's right.

00:01:13 --> 00:01:13 Yep.

00:01:13 --> 00:01:14 Awesome.

00:01:14 --> 00:01:14 Yeah.

00:01:14 --> 00:01:20 So I stumbled upon you years ago when my former youth pastor,

00:01:20 --> 00:01:21 Evan Wickham,

00:01:21 --> 00:01:23 moved to Portland and got a job at your church.

00:01:24 --> 00:01:25 And so I've been kind of like a longtime pastor.

00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 I've been creeping on your sermons and just a lot of the stuff

00:01:29 --> 00:01:30 going on in that

00:01:30 --> 00:01:31 network of churches.

00:01:31 --> 00:01:34 And so I've been so blessed by your teaching.

00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 There was a sermon you did years ago about the problem of evil

00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 that actually stuck with me.

00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 So I really appreciate that.

00:01:42 --> 00:01:44 And yeah, it's just, it's a blessing to have you here.

00:01:44 --> 00:01:45 Oh man.

00:01:45 --> 00:01:45 Well, thank you.

00:01:45 --> 00:01:45 Yeah.

00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 And you and I kind of share a similar roots at Calvary Vista.

00:01:49 --> 00:01:49 Yeah.

00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 That's where my family,

00:01:52 --> 00:01:53 when I was young,

00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 first became followers of Jesus.

00:01:55 --> 00:02:00 And I think I was like 10 years old when I first went to Calvary Vista.

00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 And yeah, and your dad's the pastor there now, right?

00:02:04 --> 00:02:04 Yeah.

00:02:05 --> 00:02:06 That's crazy though.

00:02:06 --> 00:02:06 That's man.

00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 I remember hearing when I was listening to my dad's podcast and

00:02:10 --> 00:02:10 I was like,

00:02:10 --> 00:02:10 wow,

00:02:10 --> 00:02:11 that's crazy.

00:02:11 --> 00:02:12 He's been at Vista.

00:02:12 --> 00:02:12 Wow.

00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 So yeah, just so many links, so many connections.

00:02:16 --> 00:02:16 Can,

00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 can you just for the audience sake,

00:02:18 --> 00:02:18 uh,

00:02:18 --> 00:02:21 give us a brief background on just who you are,

00:02:21 --> 00:02:22 what you do.

00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 And we also would love to hear about,

00:02:24 --> 00:02:25 you've written a book called,

00:02:26 --> 00:02:26 uh,

00:02:26 --> 00:02:27 when faith fails,

00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 I've actually got a copy of it sitting right here on my desk.

00:02:30 --> 00:02:31 It's very good.

00:02:31 --> 00:02:32 I read it and loved it.

00:02:32 --> 00:02:35 And yeah, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

00:02:35 --> 00:02:35 Sure.

00:02:35 --> 00:02:35 Yeah.

00:02:36 --> 00:02:36 Thank you.

00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 Like you mentioned, I'm a pastor here in Portland, Oregon.

00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 Portland's made the news recently for all the wrong reasons.

00:02:43 --> 00:02:46 So it's a, it's a fascinating time to be here.

00:02:46 --> 00:02:50 I'd love to do another episode with you just about that topic

00:02:50 --> 00:02:51 because yeah,

00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 there's a lot of people I know who have some strong opinions

00:02:54 --> 00:02:55 about Portland and I'd

00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 love to talk to somebody on the ground floor to get their perspective.

00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 But yeah, so yeah,

00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 That is an explosive topic, so to speak.

00:03:03 --> 00:03:04 So yeah,

00:03:04 --> 00:03:06 I've been here in this area for,

00:03:06 --> 00:03:07 I don't know,

00:03:07 --> 00:03:08 eight years or so.

00:03:09 --> 00:03:12 Prior to this, my family and I, we were in Oxford, England.

00:03:13 --> 00:03:15 And then before that, in Hawaii.

00:03:15 --> 00:03:20 And then before that, we were in Vienna, in Austria.

00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 And before that, back in England.

00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 And before that, I was a missionary in

00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 Mexico and a little country called Vanuatu in the South Pacific.

00:03:30 --> 00:03:30 Yeah,

00:03:30 --> 00:03:34 so this is kind of where God's brought us this last season of years,

00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 and it's really been a great journey.

00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 I wrote that book.

00:03:38 --> 00:03:42 It was kind of years in the making where I wrote it for a

00:03:42 --> 00:03:43 number of reasons.

00:03:43 --> 00:03:48 One was a personal journey I went through of deconstruction and

00:03:48 --> 00:03:49 almost losing my faith.

00:03:50 --> 00:03:51 and then coming back to faith.

00:03:51 --> 00:03:52 And then second,

00:03:52 --> 00:03:55 we wrote it because the church here in Portland,

00:03:55 --> 00:03:58 and I'm also involved at George Fox University,

00:03:58 --> 00:04:00 we have a lot of young,

00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 kind of college age,

00:04:02 --> 00:04:03 Gen X,

00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 Gen Z people who come.

00:04:05 --> 00:04:09 And this is an issue that many people are wrestling through is

00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 what do you do when

00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 you go through times of deconstruction?

00:04:13 --> 00:04:14 What do you do with doubt?

00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 And I think by and large,

00:04:17 --> 00:04:21 many of us haven't really been well prepared on how to engage

00:04:21 --> 00:04:22 with that topic.

00:04:22 --> 00:04:23 Yeah.

00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 It's kind of a dirty secret where you just kind of bury it and

00:04:26 --> 00:04:26 hide it under

00:04:26 --> 00:04:31 Christianese and blanket statements and church services and

00:04:31 --> 00:04:32 kind of Lego gospel.

00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 You know, everything is awesome theology.

00:04:34 --> 00:04:34 Yeah.

00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 But we don't really like to honestly engage with it.

00:04:37 --> 00:04:38 Right.

00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 And so this is a book where I attempt to do that.

00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 We're kind of wade into those waters and let's, let's talk about that.

00:04:44 --> 00:04:44 What is it?

00:04:45 --> 00:04:46 How do we understand it in our lives?

00:04:47 --> 00:04:50 How do we understand it from what Jesus had to say about it?

00:04:51 --> 00:04:51 What do we do with it?

00:04:52 --> 00:04:53 How do we move through times of it?

00:04:53 --> 00:04:58 I also open up and share some of my own story there of doubt

00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 and deconstruction and reconstruction.

00:05:00 --> 00:05:00 Yeah.

00:05:01 --> 00:05:02 So that's great.

00:05:02 --> 00:05:02 Yeah.

00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 It was, yeah, it was a fun, it's a fun, a hard process.

00:05:05 --> 00:05:05 Yeah.

00:05:06 --> 00:05:07 Writing the book,

00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 particularly because I made the decision,

00:05:09 --> 00:05:10 you know,

00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 I want to just be honest with my own story and share where I've

00:05:12 --> 00:05:13 been on this.

00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 And I think anytime you are vulnerable, it's the best thing to do.

00:05:17 --> 00:05:21 It's also it's hard because you're kind of putting your heart out there.

00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 So, yeah, that came out with Thomas Nelson about a year ago.

00:05:24 --> 00:05:24 Wow.

00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 Yeah, it's a great book.

00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 It resonated so much with me when I was reading it because

00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 everything you're saying,

00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 it so resonates because that is so our heart here and what we

00:05:36 --> 00:05:37 do with this show.

00:05:37 --> 00:05:37 You know,

00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 we love young people and we feel like,

00:05:41 --> 00:05:41 you know,

00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 me and Brian who run the show as people who grew up in the church,

00:05:44 --> 00:05:45 I'm a pastor's kid myself.

00:05:46 --> 00:05:47 I know how easy it is.

00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 I've seen like my friends who grew up in the church have

00:05:52 --> 00:05:53 questions and doubts and

00:05:53 --> 00:05:57 they never were allowed to really wrestle with those things.

00:05:57 --> 00:06:01 And so they just buried them deep down and that doubt burst

00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 into unbelief for so many people.

00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 And I see that happening not just with millennials,

00:06:05 --> 00:06:06 but with Gen Z.

00:06:07 --> 00:06:07 And really,

00:06:07 --> 00:06:07 I mean,

00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 I see it all across different ages.

00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 People are struggling with this today.

00:06:11 --> 00:06:12 So I think it's important to

00:06:12 --> 00:06:13 That's right.

00:06:27 --> 00:06:29 There's so many podcasts and books and just,

00:06:29 --> 00:06:29 you know,

00:06:29 --> 00:06:33 even teachers these days who really focus on deconstruction.

00:06:33 --> 00:06:33 I mean,

00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 we've seen even that deconversion stories have become the new testimony.

00:06:38 --> 00:06:38 You know,

00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 people talking about how they converted from Christianity and

00:06:41 --> 00:06:42 people are praising

00:06:42 --> 00:06:43 each other for that.

00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 Oh, you're so brave to step out of that.

00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 And I think we need to recapture,

00:06:47 --> 00:06:47 you know,

00:06:47 --> 00:06:49 just that reality of like,

00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 we need to engage with people's doubts.

00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 And so I think you do that quite well.

00:06:54 --> 00:06:55 Man, well, thank you.

00:06:55 --> 00:06:55 You know,

00:06:56 --> 00:06:56 You're right.

00:06:57 --> 00:06:58 This last year,

00:06:58 --> 00:07:01 it's been fascinating just seeing the number of high-profile

00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 Christian leaders who

00:07:03 --> 00:07:04 have come out,

00:07:04 --> 00:07:05 so to speak,

00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 on social media and said,

00:07:07 --> 00:07:07 you know,

00:07:08 --> 00:07:09 I'm no longer a Christian.

00:07:09 --> 00:07:10 I've deconstructed people applauding that.

00:07:11 --> 00:07:15 I think what those who applaud the deconstructionists are

00:07:16 --> 00:07:18 failing to see or maybe

00:07:18 --> 00:07:21 don't initially recognize is that deconstruction isn't the end

00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 of the story.

00:07:23 --> 00:07:28 Deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction won't last very long.

00:07:29 --> 00:07:29 So,

00:07:29 --> 00:07:30 for example,

00:07:30 --> 00:07:30 you know,

00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 the building you're sitting in right now,

00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 you could go outside and grab a chainsaw and you could start to

00:07:36 --> 00:07:37 deconstruct the building,

00:07:37 --> 00:07:38 take off the roof,

00:07:38 --> 00:07:39 take off the walls,

00:07:39 --> 00:07:40 you know,

00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 tear it all apart and then post on social media.

00:07:42 --> 00:07:43 I've deconstructed it.

00:07:44 --> 00:07:44 Yay.

00:07:44 --> 00:07:45 You know, that's very brave of you.

00:07:46 --> 00:07:46 Okay.

00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 But there is a follow-up question that has to be asked.

00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 And this is where it's very painful for those who are going

00:07:52 --> 00:07:53 through deconstruction.

00:07:53 --> 00:07:54 I don't want to minimize that.

00:07:54 --> 00:07:55 It's the most painful things you can go through.

00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 Because the follow-up question is, okay, now what?

00:08:01 --> 00:08:02 Right?

00:08:02 --> 00:08:07 You can't live your life very long without four walls and a roof.

00:08:08 --> 00:08:09 Yeah, for sure.

00:08:09 --> 00:08:10 You know what I mean?

00:08:10 --> 00:08:11 Or a foundation, for that matter.

00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 There has to be something, some grid.

00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 some way that you see the world some framework that enables you

00:08:18 --> 00:08:19 to make decisions

00:08:19 --> 00:08:24 and move forward in life and and i i actually believe that pure

00:08:24 --> 00:08:25 deconstruction pure

00:08:25 --> 00:08:30 agnosticism really doesn't exist everyone everyone has a

00:08:30 --> 00:08:31 framework and that's what

00:08:31 --> 00:08:35 you find with those who you know i could list some names we'd

00:08:35 --> 00:08:35 all recognize right

00:08:35 --> 00:08:36 now well-known

00:08:38 --> 00:08:39 They used to be Christians.

00:08:39 --> 00:08:41 Now they're ex-evangelicals or whatever.

00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 They've gone down a path of deconstruction a year ago,

00:08:44 --> 00:08:44 two years ago,

00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 five years ago.

00:08:46 --> 00:08:48 But you look at where they're at now and they've actually

00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 reconstructed to a certain point.

00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 And some will come back.

00:08:53 --> 00:08:58 Or they'll reconstruct their own version of spirituality.

00:08:58 --> 00:09:02 And it's fascinating to me to see that it always seems to go

00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 down this path of,

00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 especially with these well-known people who come out and deconstruct,

00:09:06 --> 00:09:10 they end up kind of reconstructing a weird version of the

00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 prosperity gospel slash humanism,

00:09:13 --> 00:09:13 right?

00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 right very me centric and the universe wants the best for you

00:09:19 --> 00:09:20 and it kind of ends

00:09:21 --> 00:09:25 up in a very mushy place where a lot of spiritual languages you

00:09:25 --> 00:09:26 use but there's no

00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 depth there's no foundation there it doesn't actually it

00:09:29 --> 00:09:30 doesn't mean anything

00:09:30 --> 00:09:31 right so

00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 Deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction,

00:09:34 --> 00:09:34 I think,

00:09:34 --> 00:09:38 can be a dead end road if there isn't some healthy thought

00:09:38 --> 00:09:40 through reconstruction

00:09:40 --> 00:09:40 on the other side.

00:09:40 --> 00:09:41 Now,

00:09:41 --> 00:09:42 one thing I would want to say is,

00:09:42 --> 00:09:43 you know,

00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 I don't want to just like say that deconstruction is bad.

00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 I think deconstruction often can be a very, very healthy thing.

00:09:50 --> 00:09:55 And what I mean by that is sometimes our faith has taken things

00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 on board that is

00:09:57 --> 00:10:01 unhealthy or things we've made central to the gospel that

00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 actually aren't central

00:10:03 --> 00:10:03 to the gospel.

00:10:04 --> 00:10:09 So you remember that there's this fascinating story by Jules Verne,

00:10:09 --> 00:10:10 I believe,

00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 and I think it's called Mysterious Island.

00:10:13 --> 00:10:17 It's about these four prisoners who escaped from prison and

00:10:17 --> 00:10:18 they built themselves a

00:10:18 --> 00:10:22 hot air balloon and they make it out of just whatever supplies

00:10:22 --> 00:10:23 they can find in the

00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 jail and they escape miraculously.

00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 But then suddenly they're like,

00:10:27 --> 00:10:27 oh,

00:10:27 --> 00:10:27 snap,

00:10:27 --> 00:10:29 we none of us know what to do next.

00:10:29 --> 00:10:30 Right.

00:10:30 --> 00:10:31 We're we're in this thing.

00:10:31 --> 00:10:32 We escaped.

00:10:32 --> 00:10:33 But now where do we go?

00:10:33 --> 00:10:33 Yeah.

00:10:34 --> 00:10:37 And so they start to flow down over this ocean,

00:10:37 --> 00:10:38 and they get further out,

00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 and then they start to run out of fuel.

00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 And it begins to get closer and closer to the stormy waves.

00:10:45 --> 00:10:46 We've got to lighten the load.

00:10:46 --> 00:10:47 So they throw some things overboard.

00:10:48 --> 00:10:49 The balloon goes back up.

00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 But then after an hour or so, it starts to go back down.

00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 And they're like, okay, maybe we should get rid of our food supplies.

00:10:55 --> 00:10:56 They get rid of that.

00:10:56 --> 00:10:56 It goes back up.

00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 It repeats this number of times.

00:10:58 --> 00:10:59 They get rid of their weapons.

00:10:59 --> 00:11:01 They get rid of everything.

00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 And finally, there's nothing more to get rid of.

00:11:04 --> 00:11:05 And they're about to crash.

00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 And one of them's like, well, we can always cut the basket.

00:11:08 --> 00:11:13 And so they tie themselves to the basket or to the ropes that

00:11:13 --> 00:11:14 hold the basket.

00:11:14 --> 00:11:17 Then they, when I cut the basket free.

00:11:17 --> 00:11:20 So it's literally just a hot air balloon and them all hanging

00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 on by these ropes and

00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 But that was what they needed to get them to this island and

00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 they ended up surviving.

00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 And I share that because I think sometimes God takes us on

00:11:30 --> 00:11:31 similar journeys in our

00:11:31 --> 00:11:36 faith of healthy deconstruction where we kind of have to take

00:11:36 --> 00:11:37 an honest look at the

00:11:37 --> 00:11:38 basket and say,

00:11:38 --> 00:11:39 wait a minute,

00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 I've been told my whole life that this is central to the gospel,

00:11:44 --> 00:11:44 right?

00:11:44 --> 00:11:44 Yeah.

00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 And then you reevaluate it and you're like,

00:11:47 --> 00:11:47 wait a minute,

00:11:47 --> 00:11:48 maybe,

00:11:48 --> 00:11:49 maybe it's not.

00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 Maybe this is just a byproduct of cultural Christianity.

00:11:53 --> 00:11:58 Maybe this is just my own pastor's proclivity towards a certain

00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 hot button topic

00:12:00 --> 00:12:01 that he always talked about,

00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 but I assumed was the gospel,

00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 but it's not really the gospel.

00:12:05 --> 00:12:06 You know what I mean?

00:12:06 --> 00:12:10 So there's so many examples there and I would actually argue, no,

00:12:10 --> 00:12:11 The gospel is about Jesus.

00:12:11 --> 00:12:13 He's the rope we hold on to.

00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 And he's the one that will get us to the island.

00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 And so healthy deconstruction is saying,

00:12:19 --> 00:12:19 okay,

00:12:19 --> 00:12:23 what is it in my faith that actually isn't good,

00:12:23 --> 00:12:24 isn't healthy,

00:12:24 --> 00:12:25 isn't central?

00:12:26 --> 00:12:28 And then we can begin to throw those things overboard.

00:12:28 --> 00:12:29 Yeah, that's good.

00:12:29 --> 00:12:30 That's good.

00:12:30 --> 00:12:32 You're also at the same time,

00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 you're pursuing truth and asking the question,

00:12:34 --> 00:12:34 okay,

00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 what does a healthy reconstruction look like?

00:12:37 --> 00:12:37 Right.

00:12:38 --> 00:12:38 Yeah.

00:12:38 --> 00:12:38 And I think,

00:12:39 --> 00:12:40 I think the image that comes to my mind,

00:12:40 --> 00:12:41 going back to the idea of a house,

00:12:42 --> 00:12:43 I think that if,

00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 if we're talking from the

00:12:48 --> 00:12:49 And we have this idea of a house,

00:12:49 --> 00:12:50 you know,

00:12:50 --> 00:12:51 and I'm thinking of a young person,

00:12:51 --> 00:12:51 you know,

00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 they've got this house that represents their faith and the

00:12:54 --> 00:12:55 foundation is Jesus.

00:12:55 --> 00:13:00 But then into the house has come, you know, pests, rats, termites.

00:13:00 --> 00:13:03 People have come into the house and put things there that

00:13:03 --> 00:13:03 shouldn't be there.

00:13:03 --> 00:13:05 If the response to that is just to go,

00:13:05 --> 00:13:05 well,

00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 this is a terrible house and to just burn the house down,

00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 it's you're losing something so valuable to you.

00:13:12 --> 00:13:14 Because outside influences,

00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 they added negative things into this beautiful house you once had.

00:13:19 --> 00:13:21 That doesn't mean the house still isn't good and true.

00:13:21 --> 00:13:24 The answer is to go and find those things and eliminate them.

00:13:25 --> 00:13:26 And so just like you're saying,

00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 if you've been in church and a pastor,

00:13:29 --> 00:13:30 you know,

00:13:30 --> 00:13:31 because you and I,

00:13:32 --> 00:13:33 we've both done pastoral ministry.

00:13:33 --> 00:13:36 We know very well pastors are human and fallible.

00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 Pastors can go against the Holy Spirit and introduce things to

00:13:39 --> 00:13:40 their congregation

00:13:41 --> 00:13:42 that is not right and not true.

00:13:42 --> 00:13:42 And

00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 And when we encounter that,

00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 the reaction shouldn't be to just tear the house down.

00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 But yeah, but I think it's hard to get there for people.

00:13:49 --> 00:13:50 And so with that,

00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 I'd like to move to I have actually some questions that people

00:13:53 --> 00:13:54 have sent in.

00:13:54 --> 00:13:57 These are questions from some friends of mine,

00:13:57 --> 00:13:58 some former students of mine,

00:13:59 --> 00:14:02 people on Instagram that have sent in these questions.

00:14:02 --> 00:14:05 And I'd love to throw some of these at you and just let you.

00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 Yeah, sure.

00:14:06 --> 00:14:07 Just tackle them.

00:14:07 --> 00:14:08 So let's do it.

00:14:08 --> 00:14:08 Yeah.

00:14:09 --> 00:14:09 Awesome.

00:14:09 --> 00:14:10 Here's, here's the first one.

00:14:10 --> 00:14:11 This is a personal one.

00:14:12 --> 00:14:12 Dominic,

00:14:12 --> 00:14:16 what is the biggest challenge that doubt brought into your life

00:14:16 --> 00:14:17 and how did you

00:14:17 --> 00:14:17 overcome it?

00:14:18 --> 00:14:18 Oh my goodness.

00:14:18 --> 00:14:19 That's a great question.

00:14:20 --> 00:14:24 So I think there's really two unhealthy responses to doubt.

00:14:24 --> 00:14:26 One is to idolize our doubt.

00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 And that's where we see those who are just advocating

00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 deconstruction without a part two.

00:14:32 --> 00:14:36 And the other unhealthy response is to demonize our doubt and

00:14:36 --> 00:14:37 to suppress it.

00:14:38 --> 00:14:41 For me personally, it was that second one.

00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 where I'm an introvert by nature,

00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 and so introverts tend,

00:14:47 --> 00:14:48 when they're going through stuff,

00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 to kind of keep it to themselves.

00:14:51 --> 00:14:52 If we're having a struggle,

00:14:52 --> 00:14:53 if we're having a bad day,

00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 if there's something we feel hurt by,

00:14:55 --> 00:14:56 those of you listening,

00:14:56 --> 00:14:57 we're introverts,

00:14:57 --> 00:14:58 you know exactly what I'm talking about.

00:14:58 --> 00:15:02 You just kind of put up a shell and you try and deal with it yourself.

00:15:02 --> 00:15:07 And when it comes to doubt and spiritual struggles,

00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 we can do the same thing.

00:15:09 --> 00:15:10 And that was definitely part of my story.

00:15:11 --> 00:15:12 I remember growing up,

00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 and this is kind of a longer story,

00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 but there were things that were causing me to question my faith.

00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 I didn't actually become a Christian until I was around 10,

00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 and God dramatically rescued our family.

00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 My dad was an alcoholic,

00:15:24 --> 00:15:26 and Jesus got a hold of him,

00:15:26 --> 00:15:27 and my mom came to faith,

00:15:28 --> 00:15:28 and my parents,

00:15:29 --> 00:15:30 who were separated at that time,

00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 my dad was living in San Diego in his car.

00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 He came over one night and gave his life to Jesus.

00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 It was like this crazy, just amazing conversion moment.

00:15:39 --> 00:15:44 And God set him free and our family began the process of being healed.

00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 And so all at once, suddenly it was like whiplash.

00:15:48 --> 00:15:48 You know,

00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 my upbringing goes from,

00:15:50 --> 00:15:50 you know,

00:15:51 --> 00:15:55 having an alcoholic dad and just a lot of hard things at home

00:15:55 --> 00:15:56 to suddenly now it's

00:15:56 --> 00:15:57 all about Jesus and like...

00:15:58 --> 00:16:00 the gospel and church.

00:16:00 --> 00:16:02 And so we just like launched into church life.

00:16:02 --> 00:16:03 Yeah,

00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 it seems like you had some very tangible stuff to look at where

00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 it represented your faith.

00:16:08 --> 00:16:09 Like, oh, my dad has changed.

00:16:09 --> 00:16:11 Yeah, yeah, totally.

00:16:11 --> 00:16:13 So there was a side where,

00:16:14 --> 00:16:14 yeah,

00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 I really believed God was real,

00:16:16 --> 00:16:16 Jesus was real.

00:16:17 --> 00:16:18 I had seen the power of it.

00:16:18 --> 00:16:21 But I think there were some unresolved things in my own heart of like,

00:16:21 --> 00:16:22 wow,

00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 we just went through a lot of hard stuff.

00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 There's a lot of hurt in my soul I don't know what to do with.

00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 And so that began to grow at different points in my life.

00:16:33 --> 00:16:33 You know,

00:16:33 --> 00:16:34 as I mentioned,

00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 I was a missionary in Mexico for a year and working with

00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 disabled orphans and just

00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 seeing the pain that they were going through.

00:16:40 --> 00:16:44 These are kids who have been many abandoned by their families, had severe

00:16:45 --> 00:16:49 disabilities and we had the honor the opportunity to help take

00:16:49 --> 00:16:50 care of their needs

00:16:50 --> 00:16:54 but just seeing their pain their struggles some of them just

00:16:54 --> 00:16:55 each breath was a

00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 challenge that that kind of raised that philosophical question

00:16:59 --> 00:17:00 of the problem of

00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 evil for me the problem of suffering and

00:17:02 --> 00:17:03 Why?

00:17:03 --> 00:17:04 I remember struggling with it then.

00:17:04 --> 00:17:08 And so there were just these layers as the years went by.

00:17:08 --> 00:17:10 Just particularly for me,

00:17:10 --> 00:17:15 it was around the issue of suffering and seeing people who are suffering.

00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 And, you know, in ministry, you walk alongside of people.

00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 who are suffering you're there you know when the guy who's been

00:17:23 --> 00:17:24 battling cancer for

00:17:25 --> 00:17:28 months dies and his family is devastated you're there when the

00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 mom gives birth but

00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 it's a stillborn and you see how the family's torn apart with

00:17:34 --> 00:17:34 grief like you're in

00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 those moments right right

00:17:36 --> 00:17:37 And so I just remember it's kind of building up,

00:17:38 --> 00:17:38 building up,

00:17:38 --> 00:17:38 building up.

00:17:39 --> 00:17:39 And on top of that,

00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 there was just some theological things I'm wrestling through too.

00:17:42 --> 00:17:46 Just, yeah, just reevaluating different aspects of my faith.

00:17:46 --> 00:17:47 So long story short,

00:17:48 --> 00:17:48 for me,

00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 the biggest struggle was I'm keeping it all secret.

00:17:52 --> 00:17:53 Like no one knew,

00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 but there was this struggle going on inside of me of

00:17:58 --> 00:18:00 uncertainty and struggles and doubts.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 And like David in the Psalms, like how long, oh Lord, I don't get this.

00:18:03 --> 00:18:04 I don't understand this.

00:18:05 --> 00:18:05 And for me,

00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 it came to a head in 2010 when my family and I,

00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 we moved from Hawaii to Oxford.

00:18:12 --> 00:18:14 And I was actually born in Oxford.

00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 So it was like going back home in some ways for me.

00:18:16 --> 00:18:21 And I did a master's program there at the school, the university.

00:18:22 --> 00:18:25 and during that two-year period god just spoke to my heart and

00:18:25 --> 00:18:26 was like hey this is

00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 a season where you need to be more real with me than ever

00:18:29 --> 00:18:31 before this is a season

00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 where you need to take all those struggles and doubts and just

00:18:34 --> 00:18:35 bring them to the

00:18:35 --> 00:18:38 surface i want you to wrestle with me through your faith and

00:18:38 --> 00:18:39 the the story that

00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 kept coming back of kind of a picture for that time was of

00:18:43 --> 00:18:44 jacob wrestling with god

00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 in the book of psalms like that was to be me in that season and

00:18:48 --> 00:18:49 So I shared,

00:18:50 --> 00:18:50 you know,

00:18:50 --> 00:18:52 with some close friends,

00:18:52 --> 00:18:53 my wife,

00:18:53 --> 00:18:54 mentors like,

00:18:54 --> 00:18:54 hey,

00:18:54 --> 00:18:55 this is what I'm struggling with.

00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 Here's some of the doubts I'm having,

00:18:57 --> 00:18:58 you know,

00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 theologically and just began to work through them.

00:19:01 --> 00:19:05 And I'd say the first part of that season was really tough.

00:19:05 --> 00:19:06 really tough.

00:19:07 --> 00:19:09 A part of my study in philosophy was looking at the works of

00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 atheists and engaging

00:19:11 --> 00:19:17 with their objections to the faith and finding a lot of common resonance.

00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 Like, oh, I can identify with what they're saying to some degree.

00:19:20 --> 00:19:21 Like they're bringing this objection.

00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 And I'm like, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

00:19:24 --> 00:19:24 And

00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 And so it was kind of this dark year.

00:19:27 --> 00:19:28 In the words of Nietzsche,

00:19:28 --> 00:19:28 he said,

00:19:28 --> 00:19:29 if you stare into the abyss,

00:19:30 --> 00:19:30 you know,

00:19:30 --> 00:19:31 the abyss will stare into you.

00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 It was kind of that moment of like existential, like doubt crisis.

00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 And David in the Psalms talks about this too.

00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 You know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

00:19:41 --> 00:19:46 This moment of haunting, haunting, almost crushing nothingness.

00:19:46 --> 00:19:47 God, where are you in this?

00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 And that was a dark night of the soul for me, that first season.

00:19:52 --> 00:19:52 But slowly,

00:19:52 --> 00:19:53 and I talk about this in the book,

00:19:54 --> 00:19:58 God brought me out of that to a season of reconstruction and it

00:19:58 --> 00:19:59 was healthy.

00:19:59 --> 00:20:00 It was challenging.

00:20:00 --> 00:20:01 It's hard.

00:20:01 --> 00:20:02 But like Jacob,

00:20:02 --> 00:20:02 you know,

00:20:02 --> 00:20:06 you come out of a long night wrestling and it's like you've

00:20:06 --> 00:20:07 been changed at a

00:20:07 --> 00:20:08 fundamental level.

00:20:08 --> 00:20:12 Like Jacob's name was changed to Israel, but you always walk with a limp.

00:20:15 --> 00:20:15 Yeah.

00:20:15 --> 00:20:20 So the most challenging bit is knowing what to do with it.

00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 And for me, keeping it hidden for so long wasn't good.

00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 It was like an acid that was kind of gnawing at me and I had to

00:20:26 --> 00:20:27 bring it into the light.

00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 But on the flip side, what's hard about it?

00:20:30 --> 00:20:31 Well, it continues.

00:20:31 --> 00:20:34 Like, I don't think doubt or questions will ever go away.

00:20:35 --> 00:20:36 In fact, I have a different way of looking at it now.

00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 I actually see doubt and questions as an opportunity,

00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 not as a threat anymore.

00:20:43 --> 00:20:47 I see it as an invitation to go deeper with God,

00:20:47 --> 00:20:48 to wrestle with God,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 to explore aspects of our faith.

00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 I think doubt can be the very thing that makes our faith more

00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 alive and gritty and vulnerable.

00:20:59 --> 00:20:59 That's good.

00:20:59 --> 00:21:00 That's really good, man.

00:21:00 --> 00:21:03 Yeah, I agree so much with that.

00:21:03 --> 00:21:06 I think that's so helpful for people because I feel like for a

00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 lot of us growing up

00:21:08 --> 00:21:08 as Christians,

00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 we didn't really feel like we were allowed to doubt.

00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 And to me, it always goes back to the story of Thomas.

00:21:14 --> 00:21:15 I mean, Thomas the doubter, right?

00:21:16 --> 00:21:16 That's his nickname.

00:21:17 --> 00:21:18 And how does Jesus engage with him?

00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 Does he burst through the wall and say,

00:21:20 --> 00:21:21 here's my hands,

00:21:22 --> 00:21:22 Thomas,

00:21:22 --> 00:21:23 and shove it in his face and go,

00:21:23 --> 00:21:24 how dare you doubt me?

00:21:25 --> 00:21:25 You're out of the 12.

00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 Like, no, he seems like he's so gentle.

00:21:27 --> 00:21:27 Yeah.

00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 with doubters and so willing to engage them.

00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 And I love this quote from your book.

00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 It's doubt's greatest strength is secrecy.

00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 But if we name our doubts and drag them into the light,

00:21:38 --> 00:21:42 we may find resolution or we may discover the tension of

00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 authentically living in a

00:21:44 --> 00:21:45 doubt filled faith.

00:21:45 --> 00:21:46 I thought that was really, really good.

00:21:47 --> 00:21:47 Oh, yeah.

00:21:47 --> 00:21:50 You know, I think an important point to bring up here, too, is

00:21:51 --> 00:21:55 One of the reasons why many people have felt threatened by the

00:21:55 --> 00:21:56 word doubt,

00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 they see it as a four-letter word,

00:21:58 --> 00:22:03 is because of a theological misconception and perception of

00:22:03 --> 00:22:04 what doubt is.

00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 So one of the eye-opening things for me is actually when you go

00:22:07 --> 00:22:08 into the Bible and say,

00:22:08 --> 00:22:08 okay,

00:22:08 --> 00:22:09 I want to do a study,

00:22:09 --> 00:22:10 what does the Bible say about doubt?

00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 What you find is, think of faith as a spectrum, right?

00:22:14 --> 00:22:15 So on one side you have

00:22:15 --> 00:22:16 Deep faith.

00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 That's where Jesus wants us to be.

00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 Trusting in him, wholeheartedly pursuing him.

00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 We see through a glass darkly, then face to face.

00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 That kind of limping, gritty faith that Jacob had.

00:22:30 --> 00:22:31 That's where Jesus wants us to be.

00:22:32 --> 00:22:34 Now, the opposite of that isn't doubt.

00:22:34 --> 00:22:35 For years, I thought it was.

00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 I always just thought in my mind the opposite of faith is doubt.

00:22:39 --> 00:22:43 No, in Scripture, the opposite of faith is unbelief, right?

00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 And unbelief in the Bible actually is a sin, right?

00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 It's this Greek word apostia, and it means an unwillingness to believe.

00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 I was going to ask you to define that.

00:22:53 --> 00:22:54 In the Gospel of Mark.

00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 It's not a lack of belief, but it's a refusal to believe, right?

00:22:57 --> 00:22:58 It's a refusal.

00:22:58 --> 00:22:58 So yeah,

00:22:58 --> 00:22:59 Mark,

00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 I think Mark 3 or Mark 5,

00:23:01 --> 00:23:05 says Jesus could do no great work in a village because of their unbelief.

00:23:06 --> 00:23:07 So it's saying, you know what?

00:23:08 --> 00:23:09 I've kind of made up my mind.

00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 I've chosen this, right?

00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 And I'm not open to change.

00:23:15 --> 00:23:16 That's unbelief.

00:23:16 --> 00:23:17 And the Bible calls unbelief a sin.

00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 Doubt, on the other hand, is a different space entirely.

00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 It's somewhere in between faith and unbelief.

00:23:24 --> 00:23:29 The word doubt is diacrino, and it just means to be torn in two.

00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 It's actually related to a Latin word,

00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 which means dubitare,

00:23:34 --> 00:23:36 which comes from another word meaning two.

00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 So doubt literally is you're in kind of two places at once.

00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 You're seeing things from two different perspectives.

00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 You're in two minds.

00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 Or the book of James, right?

00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 The person who doubts is like mentorin.

00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 who's going back and forth on the waves, right?

00:23:54 --> 00:23:55 So it's this idea of two-ness.

00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 And what's fascinating,

00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 if you're into anthropology or sociology,

00:23:59 --> 00:24:03 you do a study of different cultures and this idea of two-ness

00:24:03 --> 00:24:04 and doubt always

00:24:04 --> 00:24:05 goes together.

00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 So like the Greeks, their word for doubt was a tearing of the mind.

00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 Even the ancient Chinese,

00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 they defined doubt as a man with a foot in two separate boats.

00:24:16 --> 00:24:18 You know how they have these word pictures for their letters?

00:24:19 --> 00:24:20 That was their word picture for doubt.

00:24:20 --> 00:24:22 There was a guy with a foot in two separate boats,

00:24:22 --> 00:24:23 which isn't going to end well,

00:24:23 --> 00:24:23 right?

00:24:24 --> 00:24:29 In Peru, I had a chance to go there before COVID.

00:24:29 --> 00:24:30 In Peru, doubt...

00:24:31 --> 00:24:33 in their language, is having two thoughts.

00:24:34 --> 00:24:34 Same with Guatemala.

00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 It's a heart that's made two.

00:24:37 --> 00:24:39 So it's this idea of two-ness, right?

00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 I've heard it said that it's like if you're in a river and on

00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 one bank you have a

00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 belief and the other bank is unbelief.

00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 Well, doubt is kind of like this middle space in between.

00:24:51 --> 00:24:52 Now, here's the key.

00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 Just because you doubt doesn't mean you're in sin.

00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 It's what you do with your doubt is key.

00:24:59 --> 00:25:01 So you can have this moment of doubt.

00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 Think of the Psalms, right?

00:25:03 --> 00:25:08 Or think Job or think Jacob or think Peter or think Thomas.

00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 The Bible's full of people who ask questions.

00:25:12 --> 00:25:13 It's everywhere.

00:25:13 --> 00:25:14 It's everywhere.

00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 And they had these uncertainties.

00:25:17 --> 00:25:18 What did they do with it?

00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 Some would say, I'm going to take these uncertainties.

00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 I'm going to use it as an excuse to walk away from God.

00:25:25 --> 00:25:27 Others say no.

00:25:27 --> 00:25:28 Think Psalms.

00:25:28 --> 00:25:29 I think Psalms is a brilliant example.

00:25:30 --> 00:25:31 I have these uncertainties,

00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 but it's going to lead me into a closer relationship with God,

00:25:36 --> 00:25:36 right?

00:25:37 --> 00:25:39 So it's what you do with your doubts.

00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 That's the key.

00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 And that's where it will lead you either into deeper faith or

00:25:43 --> 00:25:44 into unbelief.

00:25:44 --> 00:25:45 That's really good.

00:25:46 --> 00:25:47 Man, what a good response.

00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 Let me now jump over to another question, if that's okay.

00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 This is from a former student of mine.

00:25:53 --> 00:25:54 Really,

00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 really appreciate that she sent this in because I think it

00:25:56 --> 00:25:57 resonates so much with

00:25:58 --> 00:26:00 what so many young people go through.

00:26:00 --> 00:26:01 So she says this,

00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 growing up in the faith can cause a lot of doubts when you

00:26:04 --> 00:26:05 start to grow older

00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 because you can feel like your faith isn't actually yours,

00:26:09 --> 00:26:11 but it was your parents' faith handed down to you.

00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 How can church-born Christians combat these feelings?

00:26:15 --> 00:26:20 oh man that is such a good question and it's one i relate to

00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 110 me too yeah yeah

00:26:23 --> 00:26:28 here's the thing is like every single person has to have their

00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 own real authentic

00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 encounter with the living god

00:26:33 --> 00:26:37 And the faith of your parents is a beautiful thing.

00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 It provides a wonderful framework.

00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 It's like scaffolding for a house, right?

00:26:43 --> 00:26:45 But there comes a point in your life,

00:26:46 --> 00:26:47 for some people it's 12,

00:26:47 --> 00:26:49 for others it's 22,

00:26:49 --> 00:26:50 others it's 42.

00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 But there comes a point in your life where like,

00:26:52 --> 00:26:53 okay,

00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 that framework I was handed was really helpful at that stage in my life,

00:26:57 --> 00:27:00 but I actually need to make my faith my own,

00:27:01 --> 00:27:01 right?

00:27:02 --> 00:27:02 And,

00:27:02 --> 00:27:03 you know,

00:27:03 --> 00:27:05 I come back to that story of Jacob because that was his story.

00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 I mean, talk about awesome parents and a spiritual background.

00:27:08 --> 00:27:09 I mean,

00:27:10 --> 00:27:14 he had quite the heritage of people that were related to him,

00:27:15 --> 00:27:15 right?

00:27:15 --> 00:27:16 Abraham and others.

00:27:16 --> 00:27:20 But Jacob, he needed his own real encounter with God.

00:27:21 --> 00:27:22 He needed to be changed.

00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 He needed something that would transform him.

00:27:25 --> 00:27:26 And here's the thing.

00:27:26 --> 00:27:26 Either...

00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 I see one of two paths.

00:27:30 --> 00:27:34 There can be that intentional point you come to in life where you say,

00:27:34 --> 00:27:35 you know,

00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 I'm thirsty for more of God.

00:27:38 --> 00:27:39 Like David said in the Psalms.

00:27:39 --> 00:27:42 Oh, my soul thirsts for God, for the living God.

00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 As a dear thirst for the water, my soul thirsts.

00:27:44 --> 00:27:45 There's a thirst in me.

00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 that I've been drinking from the well of what my parents handed me.

00:27:49 --> 00:27:50 It was great, but I'm still thirsty.

00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 And that thirst is going to drive you to an intentional,

00:27:53 --> 00:27:54 I'm going to go deeper here.

00:27:55 --> 00:27:56 And that could be reading,

00:27:56 --> 00:27:57 that could be learning,

00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 that could be seeking God more,

00:28:00 --> 00:28:02 that could be getting good counsel,

00:28:02 --> 00:28:02 mentorship,

00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 Maybe it's even a season of deconstruction,

00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 but there's that intentional shift in your own heart where you

00:28:09 --> 00:28:10 make the decision to say,

00:28:10 --> 00:28:12 I'm gonna see God like never before.

00:28:12 --> 00:28:13 I'm gonna bring it all on the table.

00:28:14 --> 00:28:15 I'm gonna wrestle with him.

00:28:15 --> 00:28:17 This is gonna be a year or a month or a season or whatever,

00:28:17 --> 00:28:22 10 years where I'm just gonna hash it out with the creator of

00:28:22 --> 00:28:22 the universe.

00:28:23 --> 00:28:24 So there's that option.

00:28:24 --> 00:28:25 And then the other option,

00:28:26 --> 00:28:27 which I think happens to all of us too,

00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 is God kind of forces you into seasons of life.

00:28:33 --> 00:28:35 where you have to go deeper.

00:28:35 --> 00:28:36 You have no choice.

00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 It's like, okay, the scaffolding's fallen off.

00:28:39 --> 00:28:40 You know,

00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 maybe your parents die or the world goes into lockdown or you

00:28:44 --> 00:28:46 go through a tragedy

00:28:46 --> 00:28:50 or you just lost your job or your fiance broke off the

00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 relationship or whatever.

00:28:52 --> 00:28:57 And suddenly you're in this season where your head's spinning and like,

00:28:57 --> 00:28:57 you know,

00:28:57 --> 00:28:58 in Psalm 73,

00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 it starts by saying God is good.

00:29:00 --> 00:29:01 Okay, that's the foundation.

00:29:02 --> 00:29:03 But then we forget verse two.

00:29:04 --> 00:29:08 The very next verse, he says, as for me, my feet almost slipped.

00:29:08 --> 00:29:09 That's doubt.

00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 That's where you say, OK, I for years believe this about God.

00:29:13 --> 00:29:15 I for years believe God is good.

00:29:15 --> 00:29:16 I for years heard all the sermons.

00:29:16 --> 00:29:18 I for years have this foundation.

00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 But now I'm living in verse two.

00:29:20 --> 00:29:21 You know, my feet are slipping.

00:29:21 --> 00:29:23 You know, I look down the window right now.

00:29:23 --> 00:29:24 It's smoky.

00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 that's what fog or that's what doubts like it's like a fog for

00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 the soul here i

00:29:29 --> 00:29:32 don't see the sun i don't know what's hot it's hard to breathe

00:29:33 --> 00:29:34 here right yeah um

00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 and god will take you through times of that and what i would

00:29:37 --> 00:29:38 say is that's normal

00:29:38 --> 00:29:39 don't panic

00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 This is an opportunity for your faith to grow.

00:29:43 --> 00:29:44 Don't despair.

00:29:44 --> 00:29:45 Seek him.

00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 There's something God wants to show you now.

00:29:47 --> 00:29:52 There's ways that God wants to change you now and allow what

00:29:52 --> 00:29:53 God's spirit is doing

00:29:53 --> 00:29:55 to do it in your life.

00:29:55 --> 00:29:55 Be open.

00:29:55 --> 00:29:56 Be open.

00:29:56 --> 00:30:00 That's really helpful because it's showing that there is this

00:30:00 --> 00:30:01 element of our

00:30:01 --> 00:30:03 participation in our relationship with God.

00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 I feel like a lot of times the mentality many people have is as

00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 long as I keep

00:30:08 --> 00:30:08 going to church,

00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 God is just going to continue to...

00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 Show up in my life and do all the right things are going to

00:30:14 --> 00:30:15 happen to me.

00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 But the Bible says ask and seek and knock.

00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 It's this call into a relationship.

00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 But I think the follow up question I would have,

00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 because this is something I've thought through myself,

00:30:24 --> 00:30:25 I'll set it up with this.

00:30:26 --> 00:30:29 So I've spoken at youth camps and a lot of times I've told my testimony.

00:30:29 --> 00:30:31 I was born as a pastor's kid.

00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 I lived a very kind of normal Christian life, but I have had things.

00:30:34 --> 00:30:38 I've got a few stories where basically I've had miraculous

00:30:38 --> 00:30:39 things happen to me,

00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 like things that I can't explain apart from God being real.

00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 And I look at that in my own life as a blessing.

00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 It's kind of that Thomas moment where he says to Thomas,

00:30:49 --> 00:30:53 blessed are those who have seen my great miracles and they believe,

00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 but also even more blessed are those who haven't seen me.

00:30:56 --> 00:30:58 But I have things in my life I can point to where I'm like,

00:30:58 --> 00:31:00 I can't explain that apart from Jesus.

00:31:00 --> 00:31:02 What I've heard from some young people,

00:31:02 --> 00:31:02 though,

00:31:02 --> 00:31:03 is Aaron,

00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 we love when you tell these stories because it gives us faith

00:31:06 --> 00:31:06 that God is real

00:31:06 --> 00:31:08 because we hear your testimony.

00:31:08 --> 00:31:12 But my entire life, I have always wanted experiences like that.

00:31:12 --> 00:31:15 I've never had some crazy encounter with God.

00:31:15 --> 00:31:18 I barely even feel like he's speaking to me in a way that's tangible.

00:31:19 --> 00:31:20 I continue to read my Bible.

00:31:20 --> 00:31:21 I continue to pray.

00:31:21 --> 00:31:25 I continue to go to church, but I don't get these big, crazy experiences.

00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 How can someone like me continue to have faith in times of doubt?

00:31:30 --> 00:31:31 My goodness, that's a great question.

00:31:32 --> 00:31:32 You know,

00:31:32 --> 00:31:39 I think God deepens faith and makes himself known in different ways,

00:31:39 --> 00:31:40 in different stories,

00:31:41 --> 00:31:41 at different times.

00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 And for some people, their story is the one

00:31:45 --> 00:31:49 of dramatic conversion right right they were like the drug user

00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 alcoholic and on

00:31:51 --> 00:31:56 this path of destruction and then god like literally just

00:31:56 --> 00:31:57 showed up and it was like

00:31:57 --> 00:32:02 a damascus road thing and it was undeniable right the light was

00:32:02 --> 00:32:03 shining and boom

00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 this person was knocked down and they heard god and they'll

00:32:07 --> 00:32:08 never doubt again after

00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 what they just went through um right

00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 other people it's not so much that you know like i i look at my

00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 own story and yeah

00:32:16 --> 00:32:19 there's been some cool things that god has done but i wouldn't

00:32:19 --> 00:32:19 say like there's

00:32:19 --> 00:32:24 been these crazy things where i've seen it myself where the

00:32:24 --> 00:32:26 heavens have split open

00:32:26 --> 00:32:31 and you know i look up and i see that in the clouds i am yahweh right

00:32:33 --> 00:32:35 And so for my story, it's been different.

00:32:35 --> 00:32:35 You know,

00:32:36 --> 00:32:39 I saw it's been more wrestling with stuff,

00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 learning and asking questions and other people.

00:32:42 --> 00:32:45 I know it's very experiential and very emotional.

00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 So I don't think we can just pigeonhole

00:32:48 --> 00:32:51 what god's spirit wants to do you know jesus in john 3 when

00:32:52 --> 00:32:52 he's talking to

00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 nicodemus he's like you know the spirit of god's like a wind

00:32:55 --> 00:32:56 and you don't know

00:32:57 --> 00:33:01 which way it's going to blow from one way to the next and i

00:33:01 --> 00:33:02 think we just speak we

00:33:02 --> 00:33:05 need to be open to god speaking in all ways in the moment we

00:33:05 --> 00:33:06 say okay my faith is

00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 going to be all about you know apologetic answers

00:33:10 --> 00:33:10 Well,

00:33:11 --> 00:33:11 okay,

00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 but maybe there's another aspect,

00:33:13 --> 00:33:15 another dimension that God is wanting to bring into your faith.

00:33:16 --> 00:33:18 It's more experiential and more emotional.

00:33:18 --> 00:33:18 Are you open to that?

00:33:19 --> 00:33:20 Or other people are like,

00:33:20 --> 00:33:20 no,

00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 my faith is purely emotional,

00:33:22 --> 00:33:23 purely experiential,

00:33:23 --> 00:33:23 right?

00:33:24 --> 00:33:24 Okay,

00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 but are you open to maybe some of the rational,

00:33:27 --> 00:33:29 let us reason together,

00:33:29 --> 00:33:29 says the Lord,

00:33:29 --> 00:33:30 right?

00:33:31 --> 00:33:32 There's different elements,

00:33:32 --> 00:33:33 different facets,

00:33:33 --> 00:33:36 and there's different seasons in our life where God leads us

00:33:36 --> 00:33:37 into different

00:33:37 --> 00:33:38 evidences and proofs

00:33:42 --> 00:33:43 So I think we have to be open,

00:33:43 --> 00:33:45 but I'd say even on a deeper level,

00:33:46 --> 00:33:51 what if God wants to take us into a season where it's more about trust,

00:33:52 --> 00:33:55 even if we're not getting the experiences,

00:33:55 --> 00:33:57 the answers that we hope for.

00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 And I would actually argue that's the definition of deep faith.

00:34:02 --> 00:34:02 C.S.

00:34:02 --> 00:34:04 Lewis, he has this obscure book.

00:34:04 --> 00:34:06 I don't know if you've read it, but man, it's so good.

00:34:06 --> 00:34:08 It's called Till We Have Faces.

00:34:08 --> 00:34:11 And what's interesting, it's so worth reading.

00:34:11 --> 00:34:12 Yeah.

00:34:12 --> 00:34:15 He was once asked, what's your favorite book you've ever written?

00:34:15 --> 00:34:16 Which is an interesting question.

00:34:16 --> 00:34:18 And he said, well, it's that one.

00:34:18 --> 00:34:19 It's Toby Have Faces.

00:34:19 --> 00:34:22 And it's one of his least known books.

00:34:22 --> 00:34:23 It's a fiction book.

00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 It's a retelling of an ancient myth.

00:34:26 --> 00:34:27 But it's beautiful.

00:34:27 --> 00:34:29 It's absolutely compelling.

00:34:29 --> 00:34:30 So I recommend that book.

00:34:30 --> 00:34:34 But there's this there's this haunting line in that book that

00:34:34 --> 00:34:35 has just stuck with

00:34:35 --> 00:34:36 me over the years.

00:34:36 --> 00:34:40 It says, I now know, Lord, why you utter no answer.

00:34:41 --> 00:34:46 You are yourself the answer before your face questions die away.

00:34:46 --> 00:34:48 What other answers would suffice?

00:34:49 --> 00:34:50 And I think deep faith is

00:34:50 --> 00:34:54 come to that place of like you know i i don't know if i have to

00:34:54 --> 00:34:55 answer like i used

00:34:55 --> 00:35:02 to but there's a deeper trust in jesus you you are yourself the

00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 answer right that

00:35:04 --> 00:35:06 jove kind of faith so you slay me yet will i

00:35:06 --> 00:35:11 trust you the jacob kind of faith where he he had a limp but

00:35:11 --> 00:35:12 his name was changed

00:35:12 --> 00:35:16 the john the baptist kind of faith who was languishing in

00:35:16 --> 00:35:17 prison and he i mean for

00:35:17 --> 00:35:20 crying out loud he's he baptized jesus yeah i mean talk about a

00:35:21 --> 00:35:23 sign right he he

00:35:23 --> 00:35:27 saw the spirit of god come down from heaven he heard the father

00:35:27 --> 00:35:28 say this is my son

00:35:28 --> 00:35:31 right i mean it doesn't get any more experience

00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 It wasn't long after that, he's in prison.

00:35:36 --> 00:35:39 And then he sends a text message to Jesus, right?

00:35:39 --> 00:35:41 He's like, are you the Messiah?

00:35:42 --> 00:35:43 Or should we look for another?

00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 that's just amazing to me he just went through one of the most

00:35:47 --> 00:35:49 impactful you know

00:35:49 --> 00:35:52 historic experiences ever and yet he still had doubt and what i

00:35:52 --> 00:35:53 love about the

00:35:53 --> 00:35:56 story is jesus didn't rebuke him for his less than perfect

00:35:56 --> 00:35:57 faith he didn't say he

00:35:57 --> 00:36:01 didn't say you know what go tell that guy john that he's off

00:36:01 --> 00:36:02 the team like how

00:36:02 --> 00:36:05 could you go through such a thing and still have doubt you know

00:36:05 --> 00:36:07 i'm not looking for

00:36:07 --> 00:36:10 those kind of disciples but jesus didn't do that jesus said

00:36:10 --> 00:36:11 among those born women

00:36:11 --> 00:36:12 no one greater

00:36:14 --> 00:36:15 has been born.

00:36:15 --> 00:36:19 So he fully affirms John the Baptist.

00:36:20 --> 00:36:22 Even in his place of uncertainty.

00:36:22 --> 00:36:25 And I think that's so important to mention here is like,

00:36:25 --> 00:36:28 even if you feel like your faith is failing,

00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 Even if you feel like your faith is fragile,

00:36:30 --> 00:36:31 even if you look around,

00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 you see all these people with strong faith and wow,

00:36:34 --> 00:36:36 they just seem to have this relationship with God that's so

00:36:36 --> 00:36:37 vibrant and they're

00:36:37 --> 00:36:39 always telling me about these experiences.

00:36:39 --> 00:36:42 God spoke to me or they're posting stuff online,

00:36:42 --> 00:36:44 like God's spirit just ministered to me.

00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 You're like, I want that kind of relationship too, right?

00:36:47 --> 00:36:50 You need to know that you are where God wants you to be right

00:36:50 --> 00:36:51 now and God's gonna

00:36:51 --> 00:36:53 be speaking to your life in ways that are surprising,

00:36:53 --> 00:36:54 that are unusual,

00:36:54 --> 00:36:55 that are different.

00:36:56 --> 00:36:57 No one's story is the same.

00:36:58 --> 00:37:00 And even if you're the John the Baptist right now,

00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 kind of locked away in quarantine,

00:37:03 --> 00:37:05 are you the Messiah?

00:37:05 --> 00:37:05 Should we look for another?

00:37:06 --> 00:37:07 Jesus still thinks the world of you.

00:37:07 --> 00:37:08 That's really good.

00:37:08 --> 00:37:09 That's beautiful.

00:37:09 --> 00:37:10 And yeah,

00:37:10 --> 00:37:14 that actually speaks perfectly to a follow-up question that was sent,

00:37:14 --> 00:37:14 which was,

00:37:15 --> 00:37:15 you know,

00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 how should members of the church address so many young people

00:37:18 --> 00:37:19 that have walked away

00:37:19 --> 00:37:21 from their faith or had doubts and struggles?

00:37:21 --> 00:37:23 And I think you beautifully just said it.

00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 It's the way Jesus handles doubting John the Baptist and

00:37:26 --> 00:37:27 handles Thomas,

00:37:27 --> 00:37:28 doubting Thomas.

00:37:28 --> 00:37:28 It's not,

00:37:29 --> 00:37:29 oh,

00:37:29 --> 00:37:32 I can't believe you would doubt me after all I've shown you.

00:37:32 --> 00:37:32 How dare you?

00:37:33 --> 00:37:33 I'm done with you.

00:37:34 --> 00:37:36 It's this gentleness and this love.

00:37:36 --> 00:37:36 And,

00:37:37 --> 00:37:37 you know,

00:37:37 --> 00:37:38 he's the shepherd,

00:37:38 --> 00:37:38 right,

00:37:38 --> 00:37:40 who goes after the wandering sheep.

00:37:40 --> 00:37:42 I think every person listening to this who's in a season of

00:37:42 --> 00:37:43 doubt needs to know

00:37:43 --> 00:37:47 it's not that you've wandered away from God and now he's

00:37:47 --> 00:37:48 distant from you and he's

00:37:48 --> 00:37:50 just waiting for you to come back.

00:37:50 --> 00:37:52 He's actually gone after you.

00:37:52 --> 00:37:53 He's pursuing you.

00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 He's continuing to chase you down because he loves you and he's

00:37:57 --> 00:37:58 going to send you.

00:37:58 --> 00:37:59 many things to speak to you.

00:37:59 --> 00:38:03 Maybe even this podcast is something that he's using to chase you down.

00:38:03 --> 00:38:07 But I'd love to jump to a question from another friend of mine.

00:38:07 --> 00:38:11 It is, when will the difficulty of doubt disappear?

00:38:12 --> 00:38:17 When will it be the spontaneous moment where all of a sudden it's like,

00:38:17 --> 00:38:17 oh,

00:38:17 --> 00:38:19 I get it now and I won't doubt anymore?

00:38:20 --> 00:38:21 Or is doubt just something that Christians need to be

00:38:22 --> 00:38:23 comfortable with living with?

00:38:23 --> 00:38:25 Yeah, I mean, that's the answer right there.

00:38:25 --> 00:38:29 I think it's learning to live in the tension of an unresolved faith.

00:38:30 --> 00:38:30 So,

00:38:30 --> 00:38:31 I mean,

00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 I could say there are some people out there and I genuinely

00:38:34 --> 00:38:37 envy them who honestly,

00:38:37 --> 00:38:38 they don't ever seem to doubt.

00:38:39 --> 00:38:43 And they've always believed they were singing Hillsong in their

00:38:43 --> 00:38:44 mother's womb.

00:38:45 --> 00:38:45 Right.

00:38:45 --> 00:38:47 It's like they they were born Christians,

00:38:47 --> 00:38:48 it seems like,

00:38:48 --> 00:38:49 and they've never looked back.

00:38:50 --> 00:38:50 And that's great.

00:38:51 --> 00:38:51 Like,

00:38:53 --> 00:38:54 if that's your story,

00:38:54 --> 00:38:55 if you're listening to this right now,

00:38:55 --> 00:38:55 you're like,

00:38:55 --> 00:38:58 I can't relate to what you're talking about because I never had

00:38:58 --> 00:38:59 a doubt in my life.

00:38:59 --> 00:39:01 Then I just say, no, that's a beautiful thing.

00:39:02 --> 00:39:03 Own that part of your story.

00:39:03 --> 00:39:04 That's great.

00:39:04 --> 00:39:04 That's awesome.

00:39:05 --> 00:39:09 but for the majority of us who do experience doubts and

00:39:09 --> 00:39:11 questions yeah it now we

00:39:11 --> 00:39:15 see through a glass dimly but then we will see face to face so

00:39:15 --> 00:39:16 i don't think

00:39:16 --> 00:39:18 personally there's ever going to come a time this side of

00:39:18 --> 00:39:20 heaven where there aren't

00:39:20 --> 00:39:22 going to be questions and i would even take it a step further

00:39:23 --> 00:39:24 um this opens up a

00:39:24 --> 00:39:26 whole can of worms but i just throw it out there for people to

00:39:26 --> 00:39:26 think about

00:39:27 --> 00:39:29 And I talk about this in chapter one,

00:39:29 --> 00:39:33 but I would actually argue that God created the world in such a

00:39:34 --> 00:39:35 way where doubts

00:39:35 --> 00:39:37 and questions exist.

00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 The doubts and questions are actually part of the package.

00:39:41 --> 00:39:44 And there's a whole like backstory of theology here,

00:39:44 --> 00:39:46 but just think about like the concept.

00:39:49 --> 00:39:55 something he's not creating a version of himself right he's not

00:39:55 --> 00:39:56 that's pantheism

00:39:57 --> 00:40:00 he's not creating God 2.0 yeah he's creating something other

00:40:00 --> 00:40:02 than God correct so if

00:40:02 --> 00:40:04 it's other than God and this is like theologically deep waters

00:40:04 --> 00:40:06 here but he's

00:40:06 --> 00:40:09 creating something other than God then by definition it's gonna

00:40:09 --> 00:40:10 be in some sense

00:40:10 --> 00:40:12 less than God right absolutely

00:40:12 --> 00:40:13 So if it's less than God,

00:40:14 --> 00:40:18 then there is going to be some element of uncertainty or doubts

00:40:18 --> 00:40:20 or questions or unknowing.

00:40:20 --> 00:40:21 We could use that word.

00:40:21 --> 00:40:22 And so I would,

00:40:22 --> 00:40:23 you know,

00:40:23 --> 00:40:26 if you look at kind of a progression or a theology of doubt in the Bible,

00:40:26 --> 00:40:27 most Christians,

00:40:28 --> 00:40:30 they get their theology of doubt from Genesis three.

00:40:31 --> 00:40:32 They're like, okay, where does that come from?

00:40:32 --> 00:40:38 There was a serpent, a snake, and he whispered doubt in the ear of Eve.

00:40:38 --> 00:40:44 She believed him, she ate, she gave to Adam, he ate, and the world fell.

00:40:44 --> 00:40:45 Hence,

00:40:46 --> 00:40:50 racism and sexism and COVID and war and pestilence and all the

00:40:50 --> 00:40:51 horrible things we

00:40:51 --> 00:40:52 see today because it's all Adam's fault.

00:40:52 --> 00:40:54 Yeah, I think that's correct.

00:40:54 --> 00:40:58 If they're looking at Genesis for their view of doubt,

00:40:58 --> 00:41:00 it's definitely going to paint a picture in your mind that

00:41:00 --> 00:41:02 doubt is synonymous with sin.

00:41:02 --> 00:41:03 With Satan, with Satan.

00:41:04 --> 00:41:05 It's satanic,

00:41:05 --> 00:41:06 and if you ever doubt,

00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 you're going to be responsible for bringing all types of

00:41:08 --> 00:41:10 horrors into your life and

00:41:10 --> 00:41:11 family and everything.

00:41:11 --> 00:41:11 Yes.

00:41:11 --> 00:41:14 And I would say, okay, there's definitely some truth there.

00:41:14 --> 00:41:14 Obviously,

00:41:14 --> 00:41:18 I believe in the fall of Adam and Eve and the horrors that the

00:41:18 --> 00:41:19 original sin brought.

00:41:19 --> 00:41:19 Totally.

00:41:19 --> 00:41:20 I get that.

00:41:20 --> 00:41:23 But I think our theology of doubt needs to go back.

00:41:24 --> 00:41:25 I think what Satan's doing there is unbelief.

00:41:26 --> 00:41:28 Our theology of doubt goes back to Genesis 1.

00:41:28 --> 00:41:28 Yeah.

00:41:29 --> 00:41:32 and what you find in genesis 1 is that god creates a world

00:41:32 --> 00:41:34 where unknowing was kind

00:41:34 --> 00:41:38 of built into the system as a great thing so adam and eve they

00:41:38 --> 00:41:39 didn't know

00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 everything they're put in a garden they they had questions they

00:41:42 --> 00:41:43 were told to name

00:41:43 --> 00:41:46 the animals right they're like okay what do we call this thing

00:41:46 --> 00:41:46 what do we call they

00:41:46 --> 00:41:47 didn't know

00:41:47 --> 00:41:51 But Eden was a garden that had very real limits.

00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 You know, it actually tells us there in Genesis, and this was the limit.

00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 This river was the barrier.

00:41:56 --> 00:41:59 So it had limits, it had boundaries, it had barriers.

00:41:59 --> 00:42:01 They had limits to their knowledge,

00:42:01 --> 00:42:02 limits their time,

00:42:02 --> 00:42:03 limits their intellect,

00:42:03 --> 00:42:04 on and on.

00:42:04 --> 00:42:05 And yet,

00:42:05 --> 00:42:08 those limitations that God built into the system were actually

00:42:08 --> 00:42:09 an invitation

00:42:10 --> 00:42:11 for them to grow,

00:42:11 --> 00:42:13 to explore,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:14 to discover,

00:42:14 --> 00:42:15 to be fruitful,

00:42:15 --> 00:42:16 to multiply,

00:42:16 --> 00:42:17 to ask questions,

00:42:17 --> 00:42:18 to name the animals,

00:42:19 --> 00:42:19 right?

00:42:19 --> 00:42:20 So God gives them,

00:42:20 --> 00:42:24 gives the world a degree of mystery because it was a pathway

00:42:24 --> 00:42:25 into intimacy.

00:42:25 --> 00:42:25 I think it's like

00:42:26 --> 00:42:31 any relationship you know I've known my wife now for years and

00:42:31 --> 00:42:32 she's amazing I know

00:42:32 --> 00:42:36 a lot about her obviously but I don't literally know every

00:42:36 --> 00:42:38 single thing like this

00:42:38 --> 00:42:40 moment I don't know literally where she is or what she's doing

00:42:41 --> 00:42:41 I know she's

00:42:41 --> 00:42:44 probably at home right now helping my daughter with homeschool

00:42:44 --> 00:42:44 but I don't know

00:42:44 --> 00:42:49 what she's thinking I don't know what song they're listening to right and

00:42:49 --> 00:42:51 If I literally knew everything about my wife,

00:42:51 --> 00:42:52 like every placement of every atom,

00:42:53 --> 00:42:54 every thought she had,

00:42:54 --> 00:42:54 I mean,

00:42:54 --> 00:42:55 that'd be kind of creepy and weird,

00:42:55 --> 00:42:56 right?

00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 There's still uncertainty in our relationship.

00:43:00 --> 00:43:01 Little element of mystery there.

00:43:01 --> 00:43:03 There's element of mystery, right?

00:43:03 --> 00:43:05 There's times where she'll surprise me.

00:43:05 --> 00:43:06 She'll share something with me.

00:43:06 --> 00:43:06 I'm like,

00:43:06 --> 00:43:06 oh,

00:43:07 --> 00:43:08 I know just the other day,

00:43:08 --> 00:43:08 a couple of days ago,

00:43:08 --> 00:43:09 she's like,

00:43:09 --> 00:43:11 she shared a story with me from when she was younger.

00:43:11 --> 00:43:12 I didn't know that story.

00:43:12 --> 00:43:13 I'm like, oh, that's really cool.

00:43:13 --> 00:43:14 That's always the best.

00:43:15 --> 00:43:18 Yeah, I'm still learning about her.

00:43:18 --> 00:43:20 I'm still discovering aspects of her.

00:43:21 --> 00:43:25 And I would argue that's what keeps a relationship alive.

00:43:25 --> 00:43:27 That degree of mystery,

00:43:27 --> 00:43:28 anticipation,

00:43:29 --> 00:43:30 expectation,

00:43:30 --> 00:43:32 the asking of questions,

00:43:32 --> 00:43:33 the unearthing of truths.

00:43:34 --> 00:43:35 That's a beautiful thing.

00:43:36 --> 00:43:38 And I think God built into this system,

00:43:38 --> 00:43:39 the world,

00:43:39 --> 00:43:40 into all of creation,

00:43:41 --> 00:43:45 a degree of mystery as an invitation into deeper intimacy.

00:43:46 --> 00:43:49 This is why we see language all throughout scripture that says,

00:43:49 --> 00:43:50 ask,

00:43:50 --> 00:43:50 seek,

00:43:50 --> 00:43:51 knock,

00:43:51 --> 00:43:52 come let us read.

00:43:54 --> 00:43:55 in the cool of the day.

00:43:56 --> 00:43:58 All of these things is God's way of saying,

00:43:58 --> 00:43:59 there's mystery here,

00:43:59 --> 00:44:02 but it's going to give you opportunity to go deeper.

00:44:02 --> 00:44:06 I genuinely find that beautiful, and I've never thought of it that way.

00:44:06 --> 00:44:10 I think to clarify, just for the sake of the listener,

00:44:10 --> 00:44:14 I don't think what you're saying is that God is the cause of our doubts.

00:44:14 --> 00:44:15 Like he's plotting,

00:44:15 --> 00:44:15 you know,

00:44:15 --> 00:44:19 the things that he's going to cause us to doubt because doubt

00:44:19 --> 00:44:20 can be frustrating.

00:44:20 --> 00:44:20 It can be hard.

00:44:20 --> 00:44:22 God, he's not behind our frustration.

00:44:23 --> 00:44:24 But the way that I picture it is,

00:44:24 --> 00:44:28 I'm thinking of my dad when I was little and I can remember,

00:44:29 --> 00:44:29 you know,

00:44:29 --> 00:44:30 times where we would do things,

00:44:31 --> 00:44:32 for instance,

00:44:32 --> 00:44:32 you know,

00:44:32 --> 00:44:33 teaching me how to swim.

00:44:34 --> 00:44:37 And he's standing in the pool and I'm standing on the edge of

00:44:37 --> 00:44:38 the pool and he's saying,

00:44:38 --> 00:44:39 jump in.

00:44:39 --> 00:44:40 And I'm doubting.

00:44:40 --> 00:44:42 I'm like, I'm going to drown.

00:44:42 --> 00:44:43 You're not going to catch me.

00:44:43 --> 00:44:44 This isn't going to work.

00:44:44 --> 00:44:48 And he knows because he's my dad and he's obviously understands

00:44:48 --> 00:44:49 that he is more

00:44:49 --> 00:44:51 powerful than me in this situation.

00:44:51 --> 00:44:52 He knows that he's not going to let me drown.

00:44:53 --> 00:44:54 He's going to teach me how to swim.

00:44:54 --> 00:44:55 It's going to be OK.

00:44:55 --> 00:44:56 But I'm doubting in the moment.

00:44:57 --> 00:45:00 Uh, but then I jump in and I trust him and I see him come through.

00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 He allowed me to be in a position where I would doubt him.

00:45:04 --> 00:45:05 He allowed that to happen,

00:45:06 --> 00:45:08 but he knew all along what would be the outcome.

00:45:09 --> 00:45:11 And that's how I see God, not the one who's causing our doubt.

00:45:11 --> 00:45:13 He's not the author of our doubt,

00:45:13 --> 00:45:13 but he's allowed,

00:45:13 --> 00:45:14 like,

00:45:14 --> 00:45:14 like you said,

00:45:14 --> 00:45:18 he's created the world in a way where there is an element of mystery.

00:45:18 --> 00:45:21 He didn't just make us robots where everything's programmed and everything,

00:45:21 --> 00:45:21 you know,

00:45:21 --> 00:45:24 it's not this fatalistic idea of everything just happens

00:45:25 --> 00:45:25 because it was programmed

00:45:25 --> 00:45:26 to happen.

00:45:26 --> 00:45:30 He allowed us in this space where there's mystery and where

00:45:30 --> 00:45:31 there are elements and

00:45:31 --> 00:45:34 situations we're going to be in where our natural response is

00:45:34 --> 00:45:35 going to be to doubt

00:45:35 --> 00:45:38 God because we've never been in that situation before and we've

00:45:38 --> 00:45:39 never seen him come through.

00:45:40 --> 00:45:42 But he's on the other side saying, you know, I am here.

00:45:43 --> 00:45:43 Jump.

00:45:43 --> 00:45:43 I'll catch you.

00:45:44 --> 00:45:44 Watch what happens.

00:45:44 --> 00:45:46 And that's something I see.

00:45:46 --> 00:45:48 There's a lot of beauty in that.

00:45:48 --> 00:45:49 I love what you're saying.

00:45:49 --> 00:45:49 Oh,

00:45:49 --> 00:45:49 that's,

00:45:50 --> 00:45:51 yeah,

00:45:51 --> 00:45:51 wow,

00:45:51 --> 00:45:55 that's a really beautiful analogy of jumping in,

00:45:55 --> 00:45:56 right?

00:45:56 --> 00:45:59 Yeah, God isn't the author of our doubts.

00:45:59 --> 00:46:02 He's the author and finisher of our faith.

00:46:02 --> 00:46:06 But to get from a work starting to a work finishing,

00:46:06 --> 00:46:08 from faith starting to faith finishing,

00:46:09 --> 00:46:12 in between the steps you have to take doubt.

00:46:12 --> 00:46:15 And for some people, the word doubt is a hang up.

00:46:15 --> 00:46:18 Sometimes you just need to use the word questions.

00:46:19 --> 00:46:24 Questions are the stepping stone that gets us into a deeper faith, right?

00:46:24 --> 00:46:26 It's because you're asking these questions.

00:46:26 --> 00:46:26 Did you know,

00:46:26 --> 00:46:27 like Jesus,

00:46:27 --> 00:46:32 he asked his followers over 300 questions in the gospels.

00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 300.

00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 So he is very rabbinic, right, in the way that he went about things.

00:46:38 --> 00:46:39 Our model of teaching,

00:46:39 --> 00:46:40 especially now with COVID,

00:46:40 --> 00:46:42 is like you sit in front of a screen,

00:46:42 --> 00:46:43 you listen to a lecture,

00:46:43 --> 00:46:44 you take notes.

00:46:44 --> 00:46:45 But the rabbinic way,

00:46:46 --> 00:46:47 and Socrates was this way too,

00:46:48 --> 00:46:51 is you ask your students questions because they believed in the

00:46:51 --> 00:46:53 asking of questions.

00:46:53 --> 00:46:54 Truth was revealed.

00:46:54 --> 00:46:57 And that's what Jesus did with his disciples, right?

00:46:57 --> 00:46:59 So who do you say I am?

00:47:00 --> 00:47:02 I think about the power of that question.

00:47:02 --> 00:47:06 And what that question did is it forced them to open up within their own

00:47:06 --> 00:47:09 assumptions and force them really to come to terms with,

00:47:09 --> 00:47:09 oh,

00:47:09 --> 00:47:10 who do I say I am?

00:47:11 --> 00:47:14 So the question was a catalyst to deeper faith.

00:47:15 --> 00:47:16 And that's why I see doubt, right?

00:47:16 --> 00:47:19 So it's not like God is conspiring.

00:47:19 --> 00:47:21 I want them to go through a really hard time.

00:47:21 --> 00:47:22 And so I'm just going to plant these seeds of doubt.

00:47:23 --> 00:47:25 No, God's saying, I want to take you to deeper faith.

00:47:25 --> 00:47:25 Yeah.

00:47:25 --> 00:47:27 And where you're at right now,

00:47:27 --> 00:47:28 these questions you're experiencing,

00:47:29 --> 00:47:32 stop seeing them as the enemy and learn that I want to redeem

00:47:32 --> 00:47:34 those things to take

00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 you to a place that when you look back at it five years ago,

00:47:37 --> 00:47:38 10 years ago,

00:47:38 --> 00:47:38 you'll be like,

00:47:38 --> 00:47:39 man,

00:47:39 --> 00:47:43 I was so thankful I wrestled with that because now I've learned

00:47:43 --> 00:47:44 what it means to trust.

00:47:44 --> 00:47:45 Wow, that's beautiful.

00:47:45 --> 00:47:47 Well, our time is almost up, man.

00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 So let me just throw some more of these out to try to honor the

00:47:51 --> 00:47:52 people that have asked.

00:47:52 --> 00:47:57 But the leftovers, maybe we'll tackle on another episode sometime, huh?

00:47:57 --> 00:47:58 Yeah, I would love to, man.

00:47:58 --> 00:48:00 I feel like we're just scratching the surface here.

00:48:00 --> 00:48:00 That's great.

00:48:01 --> 00:48:01 OK,

00:48:01 --> 00:48:01 well,

00:48:01 --> 00:48:03 here's here's one from a friend of mine who's actually an

00:48:03 --> 00:48:05 atheist and a very dear friend.

00:48:06 --> 00:48:13 And her question is, is all faith good and is all religion relevant?

00:48:13 --> 00:48:14 And for me,

00:48:14 --> 00:48:15 like I understand that question,

00:48:15 --> 00:48:16 you know,

00:48:16 --> 00:48:19 coming from someone who is understanding that outside of Christianity,

00:48:19 --> 00:48:22 there can kind of be this sentiment of like Christians are elitist,

00:48:23 --> 00:48:23 you know,

00:48:23 --> 00:48:24 when it comes to religion.

00:48:24 --> 00:48:27 Many nonbelievers would see Christians as seeing themselves as

00:48:28 --> 00:48:29 holier than everyone.

00:48:29 --> 00:48:29 And,

00:48:29 --> 00:48:30 you know,

00:48:30 --> 00:48:32 while other religions are content to coexist,

00:48:32 --> 00:48:36 Christians seem to kind of be bent on proving that other

00:48:36 --> 00:48:37 religions are false or bad.

00:48:37 --> 00:48:37 So,

00:48:38 --> 00:48:38 you know,

00:48:38 --> 00:48:42 do you think that all religions have some validity or how do we

00:48:42 --> 00:48:43 respond to that as Christians?

00:48:44 --> 00:48:44 Yeah.

00:48:44 --> 00:48:44 Well,

00:48:45 --> 00:48:45 yeah,

00:48:45 --> 00:48:48 I think it's kind of two aspects and two different ways of

00:48:48 --> 00:48:50 approaching that question.

00:48:50 --> 00:48:54 One is, you know, are all religions valid or true?

00:48:54 --> 00:48:56 We believe we follow Jesus.

00:48:56 --> 00:48:57 Right.

00:48:57 --> 00:49:00 And so we believe that he is the way, the truth and the life.

00:49:00 --> 00:49:04 And we've chosen to center our mind around him and our hearts

00:49:04 --> 00:49:06 around him and our

00:49:06 --> 00:49:07 practices around him,

00:49:07 --> 00:49:08 how we do life.

00:49:08 --> 00:49:10 Now, should that lead to elitism?

00:49:11 --> 00:49:11 No.

00:49:11 --> 00:49:14 Actually, I think that should lead us to a deep humility.

00:49:15 --> 00:49:22 Because the one thing we begin to realize the closer we get to Jesus is,

00:49:22 --> 00:49:22 wow,

00:49:23 --> 00:49:24 I have got so,

00:49:25 --> 00:49:26 so far to go,

00:49:26 --> 00:49:26 right?

00:49:27 --> 00:49:29 You look at reading about Paul and,

00:49:29 --> 00:49:30 you know,

00:49:30 --> 00:49:31 the beginning of his faith,

00:49:31 --> 00:49:31 he's like,

00:49:31 --> 00:49:31 man,

00:49:31 --> 00:49:32 I am...

00:49:34 --> 00:49:38 i'm a chief of sinners yeah i've got i look at my heart and

00:49:38 --> 00:49:39 i've got so many things

00:49:39 --> 00:49:43 that that aren't aren't good in me and towards the end of his

00:49:43 --> 00:49:44 faith though you

00:49:44 --> 00:49:46 would think he'd come to a place where he'd be completely

00:49:46 --> 00:49:48 filled with even more

00:49:48 --> 00:49:51 faith and like i'm doing a lot better now but at the end of his

00:49:51 --> 00:49:51 faith if you look

00:49:51 --> 00:49:55 at timothy he's like i'm still i'm the chief of syndrome i've

00:49:55 --> 00:49:56 still got all these

00:49:56 --> 00:50:00 things in me that aren't right and i think a sign of maturity

00:50:00 --> 00:50:01 in many ways is you

00:50:01 --> 00:50:02 realize how immature

00:50:02 --> 00:50:04 you are and how far you've got to go.

00:50:04 --> 00:50:04 So,

00:50:05 --> 00:50:05 you know,

00:50:06 --> 00:50:07 for the atheists who would say,

00:50:07 --> 00:50:07 yeah,

00:50:07 --> 00:50:08 the Christians I know are elitist.

00:50:09 --> 00:50:11 I think that's heartbreaking and so sad.

00:50:11 --> 00:50:15 And because Jesus was anything, yeah, he's anything but that.

00:50:15 --> 00:50:19 And Jesus' own character, he said, I am meek and lowly, right?

00:50:19 --> 00:50:23 So that should be the thing that begins to define us, hopefully.

00:50:23 --> 00:50:26 Now, the question as to faith, like it's all, what is it?

00:50:26 --> 00:50:28 Is all faith relevant or is all faith valid?

00:50:28 --> 00:50:29 I would actually...

00:50:30 --> 00:50:33 I know not everyone's going to agree with this,

00:50:33 --> 00:50:37 especially those who may have an atheistic perspective.

00:50:37 --> 00:50:38 But in my season of life,

00:50:38 --> 00:50:41 when I began to look at atheism very closely,

00:50:42 --> 00:50:44 I talk about this in the book in chapters three and four.

00:50:44 --> 00:50:49 I began to realize that atheism is the faith position too.

00:50:50 --> 00:50:51 And by that,

00:50:51 --> 00:50:52 I mean,

00:50:52 --> 00:50:57 it comes with its own set of values and assumptions and ways of

00:50:57 --> 00:50:58 doing life.

00:50:59 --> 00:51:04 if you do not believe there is god then inevitably and this

00:51:04 --> 00:51:04 goes back to nietzsche

00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 nietzsche was a very honest atheist he argued for this in his

00:51:08 --> 00:51:10 writings if you

00:51:10 --> 00:51:16 abandon belief in god that will have a very real impact not

00:51:16 --> 00:51:17 only on the individual

00:51:17 --> 00:51:20 but culture and society as a whole

00:51:21 --> 00:51:24 And so I began to see, oh, wait a minute.

00:51:24 --> 00:51:27 Atheism isn't just the abandonment of a faith.

00:51:27 --> 00:51:30 It's actually another worldview.

00:51:30 --> 00:51:33 It's another way of doing life.

00:51:33 --> 00:51:33 It's another way,

00:51:34 --> 00:51:34 for example,

00:51:34 --> 00:51:40 of interpreting morality or understanding a term such as justice.

00:51:40 --> 00:51:43 Where do we get justice from in an atheistic worldview?

00:51:43 --> 00:51:45 That's a really hard question to answer.

00:51:45 --> 00:51:49 I think a lot harder to answer than from a theistic perspective.

00:51:50 --> 00:51:51 And is there ultimate justice?

00:51:52 --> 00:51:54 That's really hard to answer if you're an atheist,

00:51:54 --> 00:51:55 because if you're honest,

00:51:55 --> 00:51:58 check out Straw Dogs by John Gray.

00:51:58 --> 00:51:59 He lives in England.

00:51:59 --> 00:52:02 He's an atheist, kind of a Nietzschean atheist.

00:52:02 --> 00:52:05 And he would actually argue, no, there is no such thing.

00:52:05 --> 00:52:08 We cannot say as atheists that there is ultimate justice,

00:52:08 --> 00:52:10 which is a fascinating cultural.

00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 cultural thing that we're seeing there's a cry for justice like

00:52:14 --> 00:52:14 think of our city

00:52:14 --> 00:52:17 of portland right now everyone's you know rallying under this

00:52:17 --> 00:52:18 banner of justice

00:52:18 --> 00:52:21 which okay that's a beautiful thing you see justice in

00:52:21 --> 00:52:23 scripture but if if you have

00:52:23 --> 00:52:26 an atheistic worldview or an agnostic worldview how do you

00:52:26 --> 00:52:28 justify justice and is

00:52:28 --> 00:52:32 ultimate justice a reality right right now we believe as

00:52:32 --> 00:52:33 followers of jesus yeah

00:52:33 --> 00:52:35 there there is ultimate justice it will be done

00:52:36 --> 00:52:39 But as an atheist, you cannot honestly say that.

00:52:39 --> 00:52:41 And so that actually has implications.

00:52:41 --> 00:52:45 So, again, I talk about that in chapter soon for the huge topic.

00:52:46 --> 00:52:52 But I would just humbly suggest that atheism is a worldview and

00:52:52 --> 00:52:53 to look at it honestly,

00:52:53 --> 00:52:54 to ask yourself,

00:52:54 --> 00:52:55 OK,

00:52:55 --> 00:52:57 where does my atheism lead?

00:52:57 --> 00:52:57 Mm hmm.

00:52:58 --> 00:52:59 Yeah, it's a tough question.

00:52:59 --> 00:53:00 It's a hard one.

00:53:00 --> 00:53:06 And I love your respect for people who have those other viewpoints,

00:53:06 --> 00:53:07 even in your response.

00:53:07 --> 00:53:09 I mean, what a gentle response.

00:53:09 --> 00:53:13 And I think that's the way as Christians we should operate.

00:53:13 --> 00:53:15 I think many of us who grew up in the church,

00:53:16 --> 00:53:19 we can tend to form this viewpoint of just,

00:53:19 --> 00:53:19 you know,

00:53:19 --> 00:53:23 christianity just makes sense and it's it's obvious and if you

00:53:23 --> 00:53:23 don't believe it

00:53:23 --> 00:53:27 you're you're a fool you know and i think one thing i was

00:53:27 --> 00:53:28 talking to my co-host

00:53:28 --> 00:53:32 brian about recently was when we really look at what we believe

00:53:32 --> 00:53:33 and compare it to

00:53:33 --> 00:53:36 other religions like mormons and jehovah's witness i mean

00:53:36 --> 00:53:37 there's stuff that we

00:53:37 --> 00:53:39 think of as obvious because we grew up with it but like to

00:53:39 --> 00:53:40 people who aren't

00:53:40 --> 00:53:43 christians i mean one we sing songs about being washed in blood

00:53:44 --> 00:53:49 We talk about talking snakes in the garden and demons and angels.

00:53:49 --> 00:53:51 There's a lot of stuff that's normal.

00:53:51 --> 00:53:53 I say normal, but I mean unsaved people.

00:53:53 --> 00:53:54 It's like, what on earth is that?

00:53:54 --> 00:53:56 So if we can have a humility of addressing like,

00:53:56 --> 00:53:57 yeah,

00:53:57 --> 00:53:58 what we believe is kind of strange.

00:53:59 --> 00:54:02 We believe it because we desperately believe it's true.

00:54:02 --> 00:54:05 And the only reason we're trying to convince somebody who's not

00:54:05 --> 00:54:05 a Christian or

00:54:06 --> 00:54:09 another religion to sway away from that is because to us,

00:54:09 --> 00:54:11 if what we believe is true,

00:54:12 --> 00:54:15 that means that you are walking off of a cliff into a pit and

00:54:16 --> 00:54:17 it would be wrong

00:54:17 --> 00:54:22 morally for us to not try to convince you to just let you go your way.

00:54:22 --> 00:54:25 That would be the moral equivalent of if it's,

00:54:25 --> 00:54:25 it's,

00:54:25 --> 00:54:28 it's hard because you have to step into someone else's shoes and go,

00:54:28 --> 00:54:28 okay,

00:54:28 --> 00:54:30 if what this person believes is true,

00:54:30 --> 00:54:31 then this and that and that.

00:54:31 --> 00:54:32 So yeah,

00:54:32 --> 00:54:38 I think we all need a dose of existential humility because,

00:54:38 --> 00:54:38 I mean,

00:54:38 --> 00:54:39 when you think about it,

00:54:39 --> 00:54:40 all worldviews are weird.

00:54:41 --> 00:54:42 Oh, yeah.

00:54:42 --> 00:54:43 All faith is weird,

00:54:44 --> 00:54:48 whether it's some religious belief or it's non-belief.

00:54:48 --> 00:54:49 It's weird.

00:54:49 --> 00:54:50 It really is.

00:54:51 --> 00:54:52 It's a weird thing to think,

00:54:52 --> 00:54:53 like you said,

00:54:53 --> 00:54:53 wow,

00:54:53 --> 00:54:55 these certain theological perspectives.

00:54:56 --> 00:55:00 Or it's weird to say there's no ultimate justice or this is all accidental.

00:55:00 --> 00:55:01 That's really weird, too.

00:55:01 --> 00:55:03 Or the explanation of consciousness or morality.

00:55:04 --> 00:55:05 That's weird, too.

00:55:05 --> 00:55:07 However, the whole thing is weird.

00:55:08 --> 00:55:09 Yes.

00:55:09 --> 00:55:09 It is weird.

00:55:10 --> 00:55:15 And so which version of weirdness makes most sense?

00:55:15 --> 00:55:15 Yeah.

00:55:16 --> 00:55:22 Yeah, because if truth exists, it is a noble quest to pursue truth.

00:55:22 --> 00:55:23 And I say that not just to Christians.

00:55:23 --> 00:55:25 I say that to an atheist.

00:55:25 --> 00:55:25 I say that to anybody.

00:55:26 --> 00:55:29 If in your heart what you're trying to do is pursue truth,

00:55:30 --> 00:55:31 that's something I can respect.

00:55:31 --> 00:55:35 And my hope would just be that you would discover what I

00:55:35 --> 00:55:37 believe to be true as true.

00:55:37 --> 00:55:37 Yeah.

00:55:38 --> 00:55:39 And I'm sure they'd say the same thing to me.

00:55:39 --> 00:55:41 But that's where the Holy Spirit comes in.

00:55:41 --> 00:55:45 And I truly do believe that the Holy Spirit really does play a

00:55:45 --> 00:55:47 part in waking people up.

00:55:47 --> 00:55:48 And so for us,

00:55:48 --> 00:55:49 we deliver the news,

00:55:49 --> 00:55:50 we deliver the message,

00:55:50 --> 00:55:52 and we trust God to get in there.

00:55:52 --> 00:55:52 Yes.

00:55:52 --> 00:55:55 Do you have time for one more question before you have to go?

00:55:55 --> 00:55:55 Yeah, sure.

00:55:55 --> 00:55:56 Let's do one more.

00:55:56 --> 00:55:56 Okay.

00:55:56 --> 00:55:58 I think this would be a great one to close on.

00:55:58 --> 00:56:01 This came in from actually two different people asking the same thing.

00:56:01 --> 00:56:06 So this is on the list, the most valued question with two asks.

00:56:07 --> 00:56:07 Okay.

00:56:08 --> 00:56:12 Should we, in today's age, have childlike faith?

00:56:12 --> 00:56:14 And what we mean by that is, you know...

00:56:15 --> 00:56:18 In today's age of postmodernism,

00:56:19 --> 00:56:21 childlike faith can look a lot like ignorance.

00:56:22 --> 00:56:23 And to be fair,

00:56:23 --> 00:56:26 that does make sense to me because I have looked down on cults

00:56:26 --> 00:56:28 for their views and thought,

00:56:28 --> 00:56:28 oh,

00:56:28 --> 00:56:29 their views are foolish.

00:56:30 --> 00:56:34 Postmodern world values evidence, not blind faith.

00:56:34 --> 00:56:37 So should we pursue childlike faith or should we pursue evidence?

00:56:38 --> 00:56:38 What's the balance?

00:56:39 --> 00:56:39 Okay.

00:56:39 --> 00:56:40 Yeah.

00:56:41 --> 00:56:42 That's a great question.

00:56:42 --> 00:56:44 It's almost a trick question, right?

00:56:44 --> 00:56:48 Because Jesus actually did say that we need to have faith as children.

00:56:49 --> 00:56:54 But what he didn't mean by that was have an ignorant, blind faith.

00:56:55 --> 00:56:58 He meant have a trusting, open faith.

00:56:59 --> 00:57:03 And what I love about kids and childlike wonder,

00:57:03 --> 00:57:04 think about when we were kids,

00:57:04 --> 00:57:04 right?

00:57:05 --> 00:57:06 You ask questions.

00:57:07 --> 00:57:08 It's the question, why?

00:57:08 --> 00:57:09 Why this?

00:57:09 --> 00:57:09 Why that?

00:57:10 --> 00:57:11 You're always open.

00:57:11 --> 00:57:11 You're very honest.

00:57:14 --> 00:57:16 And they'll share what they're thinking.

00:57:16 --> 00:57:17 And so when Jesus said,

00:57:17 --> 00:57:19 I want you to have faith like a child,

00:57:19 --> 00:57:19 he's not saying,

00:57:20 --> 00:57:20 just shut up.

00:57:21 --> 00:57:23 Your Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.

00:57:23 --> 00:57:27 I don't think Jesus would have put that bumper sticker on his car.

00:57:27 --> 00:57:28 He's not somebody talking about.

00:57:28 --> 00:57:28 I don't either.

00:57:29 --> 00:57:31 Yeah, he's not saying be ignorant.

00:57:31 --> 00:57:34 He's saying be open, be trusting and ask questions.

00:57:34 --> 00:57:35 Right.

00:57:35 --> 00:57:38 So I think of the Nobel laureate, Isidore Isaac Rabi.

00:57:38 --> 00:57:39 I think he lived in the 1930s,

00:57:40 --> 00:57:40 1940s,

00:57:41 --> 00:57:44 and he was nominated for this Nobel Peace Prize and for his

00:57:44 --> 00:57:46 work in science.

00:57:46 --> 00:57:47 And a journalist once asked him,

00:57:47 --> 00:57:48 they're like,

00:57:48 --> 00:57:51 so how do you how do you credit your success?

00:57:51 --> 00:57:53 I mean, you've done amazing things.

00:57:54 --> 00:57:54 He said,

00:57:54 --> 00:57:54 you know,

00:57:55 --> 00:57:55 I,

00:57:55 --> 00:57:58 I'll credit it to the way my mom would greet me when I came

00:57:58 --> 00:57:59 home from work or from school.

00:58:00 --> 00:58:01 And they said, what do you mean?

00:58:01 --> 00:58:01 And he said,

00:58:01 --> 00:58:01 well,

00:58:01 --> 00:58:02 when I got,

00:58:02 --> 00:58:03 when most kids get home,

00:58:03 --> 00:58:03 they're like,

00:58:03 --> 00:58:04 you know,

00:58:04 --> 00:58:05 did you learn anything good today?

00:58:05 --> 00:58:06 And he said,

00:58:06 --> 00:58:08 when I got home from school,

00:58:08 --> 00:58:09 my mom would ask,

00:58:09 --> 00:58:11 did you ask any good questions today?

00:58:12 --> 00:58:12 Wow.

00:58:12 --> 00:58:15 And he said that for me made the difference.

00:58:15 --> 00:58:19 He said, because as a kid, I learned the importance of asking questions.

00:58:19 --> 00:58:20 Hmm.

00:58:20 --> 00:58:22 And that's why you go to the book of Deuteronomy.

00:58:22 --> 00:58:25 In fact, you look at Judaism as a whole.

00:58:25 --> 00:58:29 And it was this culture of asking questions.

00:58:29 --> 00:58:30 Deuteronomy,

00:58:30 --> 00:58:31 God's like,

00:58:31 --> 00:58:32 I want parents,

00:58:32 --> 00:58:35 I want you to engage the questions of your kids.

00:58:36 --> 00:58:36 Deuteronomy says,

00:58:36 --> 00:58:38 when your kids ask these things,

00:58:39 --> 00:58:40 here's how you're going to respond to them.

00:58:41 --> 00:58:43 Don't shut them down, right?

00:58:43 --> 00:58:45 The Victorians, they said, kids should be seen but not heard.

00:58:45 --> 00:58:48 That was so opposite from what the Bible actually says.

00:58:48 --> 00:58:50 The Bible says, ask questions.

00:58:51 --> 00:58:54 And it specifically commanded Israelite children,

00:58:54 --> 00:58:54 hey,

00:58:55 --> 00:58:56 ask questions of your parents.

00:58:56 --> 00:58:58 It was like this culture of question asking.

00:58:59 --> 00:59:01 which you can then trace through the book of psalms which you

00:59:01 --> 00:59:02 can trace in the book

00:59:02 --> 00:59:05 of job which you can see in the writings of the justice

00:59:05 --> 00:59:07 prophets which you see in

00:59:07 --> 00:59:11 jesus who asks over 300 questions of his disciples there's this

00:59:11 --> 00:59:12 this culture of

00:59:12 --> 00:59:17 childlike wonder openness trust and asking questions the exact

00:59:17 --> 00:59:19 opposite of okay be

00:59:19 --> 00:59:24 ignorant shut up and just believe it right so that's how i

00:59:24 --> 00:59:25 would interpret the

00:59:25 --> 00:59:26 childlike aspect

00:59:27 --> 00:59:30 It's like to be truly childlike is to be truly filled with wonder.

00:59:31 --> 00:59:31 Yeah.

00:59:31 --> 00:59:34 To be inquisitive and to ask, man, that's, that's so beautiful.

00:59:35 --> 00:59:35 And for me,

00:59:35 --> 00:59:38 like I can just speak into that and saying that for me,

00:59:38 --> 00:59:39 like as a Christian,

00:59:40 --> 00:59:43 I've grown the most when I've been around people,

00:59:43 --> 00:59:47 mentors who will pour into me and allow me to ask questions.

00:59:47 --> 00:59:49 And so that would be an encouragement I'd give to anyone

00:59:49 --> 00:59:50 listening to this.

00:59:50 --> 00:59:52 If you find yourself in a place where you don't have people

00:59:52 --> 00:59:53 around you who will

00:59:53 --> 00:59:56 actually wrestle through questions with you,

00:59:56 --> 00:59:58 there's a difference between people who will wrestle with you

00:59:58 --> 00:59:59 and people who will

00:59:59 --> 01:00:02 just give you simple religious platitudes or just go,

01:00:02 --> 01:00:03 here's a verse.

01:00:03 --> 01:00:04 And then that's it,

01:00:05 --> 01:00:05 you know,

01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 but I would encourage everyone who's listening to this,

01:00:08 --> 01:00:11 find someone who will wrestle through your doubts and your

01:00:11 --> 01:00:12 questions with you.

01:00:12 --> 01:00:14 And it doesn't even need to be necessarily somebody who has all

01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 the answers.

01:00:15 --> 01:00:18 It could be somebody who is wise and trusted,

01:00:18 --> 01:00:19 but they might say,

01:00:19 --> 01:00:19 hey,

01:00:19 --> 01:00:19 listen,

01:00:20 --> 01:00:21 I don't know everything.

01:00:21 --> 01:00:24 There's going to be things you ask me where I'm not going to be

01:00:24 --> 01:00:25 able to give you

01:00:26 --> 01:00:27 the clear cut answer you want,

01:00:27 --> 01:00:30 but I will pray with you about it and we will see God together

01:00:31 --> 01:00:32 and see what he

01:00:32 --> 01:00:32 tells us.

01:00:32 --> 01:00:33 And I think that's...

01:00:34 --> 01:00:35 So valuable.

01:00:35 --> 01:00:36 That's what we're doing here.

01:00:36 --> 01:00:39 Thank you for accepting the invitation to come into this space

01:00:39 --> 01:00:41 and be a trusted

01:00:41 --> 01:00:45 mentor to the listeners of this show and to speak into their

01:00:45 --> 01:00:46 questions and doubts.

01:00:47 --> 01:00:49 And I think you've done that so well.

01:00:49 --> 01:00:50 This has been such a blessing.

01:00:50 --> 01:00:53 And I've just been sitting back being encouraged by all of this.

01:00:53 --> 01:00:55 So I really appreciate this.

01:00:55 --> 01:00:56 Thank you so much for being here, man.

01:00:56 --> 01:00:57 Oh, man.

01:00:57 --> 01:00:57 Yeah.

01:00:57 --> 01:00:58 Thank you.

01:00:58 --> 01:00:59 And thank you for what you're doing.

01:00:59 --> 01:01:03 I think you're living out what I think is the answer to those

01:01:03 --> 01:01:05 who are doubting and questioning.

01:01:05 --> 01:01:07 You're providing that safe space for people.

01:01:08 --> 01:01:09 And so thank you for that.

01:01:09 --> 01:01:13 And any who are listening, if you're in a place of doubt, it's okay.

01:01:13 --> 01:01:16 And I just believe that God wants to take you further and

01:01:17 --> 01:01:19 deeper as you don't try

01:01:19 --> 01:01:20 and suppress your doubts,

01:01:20 --> 01:01:23 but instead allow your doubts to be redeemed.

01:01:23 --> 01:01:23 Beautiful.

01:01:33 --> 01:01:36 Thanks for listening to another episode of the Good Lion Podcast.

01:01:37 --> 01:01:42 If you like our show, please take a minute to give us a review on iTunes.

01:01:42 --> 01:01:44 It seriously helps so much.

01:01:44 --> 01:01:47 The more reviews we get, the more people will find us.

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01:01:49 --> 01:01:52 please just go on iTunes and leave a quick review.

01:01:52 --> 01:01:55 We also love questions from listeners and we love to do

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01:01:57 --> 01:02:00 So if you have a question and you want us to talk about on the show,

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01:02:07 --> 01:02:08 Send us a question.

01:02:08 --> 01:02:09 We'd love to talk about it on the show.

01:02:10 --> 01:02:13 The Good Lion Podcast is a production of the Calvary Global Network,

01:02:13 --> 01:02:14 and it's produced by myself,

01:02:15 --> 01:02:15 Aaron Salvato,

01:02:16 --> 01:02:16 and my co-host,

01:02:16 --> 01:02:17 Brian Higgins.

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