The Self-Righteous Pastor | Righteousness mini series Pt.5

Aaron Salvato, Brian Higgins, Bryan Stupar, and Char Broderson talk about self righteousness in the life of a pastor, and practices to overcome this pitfall!

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00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 Welcome back to the Righteousness miniseries on the Good Lion Podcast.

00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 The title of today's episode is The Self-Righteous Pastor.

00:00:09 --> 00:00:11 Today on the show,

00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 you're going to hear a great conversation between two pastors,

00:00:14 --> 00:00:16 Brian Stupar and Char Brodersen,

00:00:16 --> 00:00:19 as they discuss how easy it is for self-righteousness to

00:00:19 --> 00:00:20 infiltrate the hearts of

00:00:20 --> 00:00:21 ministry leaders.

00:00:22 --> 00:00:22 But before that,

00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 here's a conversation between me and Brian Higgins to open up

00:00:25 --> 00:00:25 the show.

00:00:25 --> 00:00:30 The Self-Righteous Pastor

00:00:32 --> 00:00:32 So man,

00:00:33 --> 00:00:38 I think that quite often in my experience with ministry,

00:00:38 --> 00:00:44 I just see people trying so hard to get right with God and to

00:00:44 --> 00:00:45 reach a point where

00:00:45 --> 00:00:46 they feel like they've arrived.

00:00:46 --> 00:00:51 And my whole life as a young person growing up in the church, I feel like

00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 It was like I was always looking off and seeing in the distance

00:00:54 --> 00:00:55 this unattainable

00:00:56 --> 00:00:57 righteousness where,

00:00:57 --> 00:00:57 you know,

00:00:57 --> 00:00:59 I felt like if I just got to the point,

00:00:59 --> 00:01:00 I mean,

00:01:00 --> 00:01:00 for me,

00:01:00 --> 00:01:00 really,

00:01:00 --> 00:01:01 honestly,

00:01:01 --> 00:01:05 it was like I thought I boiled all of Christianity down to read

00:01:05 --> 00:01:06 your Bible and pray

00:01:06 --> 00:01:06 every single day.

00:01:07 --> 00:01:09 And so for a long time, that was my goal.

00:01:09 --> 00:01:13 If I can just read and pray every day, then I will reach peak Christian.

00:01:14 --> 00:01:15 Yeah, definitely.

00:01:15 --> 00:01:19 I remember being in youth group and when my youth pastor would

00:01:19 --> 00:01:20 ask me how my

00:01:20 --> 00:01:22 relationship with Jesus was going,

00:01:22 --> 00:01:25 the two questions in my head were,

00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 when was the last time I read my Bible?

00:01:27 --> 00:01:27 Yeah.

00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 And when's the last time I sinned in a way that I'm embarrassed about?

00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 And if I read my Bible recently and hadn't sinned like that in

00:01:35 --> 00:01:35 a while,

00:01:36 --> 00:01:37 me and Jesus are great.

00:01:37 --> 00:01:41 Like that was the criteria for me in my mind answering that question.

00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 Hmm.

00:01:42 --> 00:01:44 Where, what is your criteria now?

00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 It's a lot more gray than it used to be.

00:01:49 --> 00:01:50 It's a lot less black and white.

00:01:51 --> 00:01:56 To me now, when I'm answering the question, how are Jesus and I doing?

00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 It's a lot more like I'm answering the question,

00:01:58 --> 00:01:59 how are my wife and I doing?

00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 It's more about how aligned and united our two hearts and minds are.

00:02:06 --> 00:02:09 It's a lot more just about the loyalty that I feel in my own

00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 soul towards Christ and

00:02:12 --> 00:02:12 Wow.

00:02:12 --> 00:02:13 And just sort of,

00:02:13 --> 00:02:14 am I,

00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 has he been my number one priority is more of what I'm thinking

00:02:19 --> 00:02:19 through when I

00:02:19 --> 00:02:20 answer that question.

00:02:21 --> 00:02:23 Cause I remember like, I, I totally agree with you.

00:02:23 --> 00:02:27 I used to go to church and look at the people on stage and

00:02:27 --> 00:02:28 And think,

00:02:28 --> 00:02:28 oh,

00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 maybe one day I could be like those people because they must

00:02:32 --> 00:02:33 have it together and

00:02:33 --> 00:02:34 they must know.

00:02:34 --> 00:02:37 And like God must really answer their prayers.

00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 Like I used to think all of that type stuff.

00:02:39 --> 00:02:40 Yeah.

00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 And now I'm in,

00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 I reached the spot where I became one of the guys on stage.

00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 And suddenly it was like, wait a second.

00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 I am not, I am not put together yet at all.

00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 Like I have not arrived.

00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 I am still so far from where I want to be.

00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 It's so important for us guys on the stage.

00:02:57 --> 00:02:57 Well,

00:02:57 --> 00:02:58 I'm not on stages anymore,

00:02:59 --> 00:03:00 but I used to be one of the guys on stage.

00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 And it's so important for guys in that position and girls in

00:03:04 --> 00:03:05 that position to make

00:03:05 --> 00:03:07 it clear that that is not arriving.

00:03:08 --> 00:03:09 Like when you get to that point,

00:03:10 --> 00:03:12 you are literally just another Christian,

00:03:12 --> 00:03:13 another sinner,

00:03:13 --> 00:03:15 another Christ follower that

00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 who has been placed in a role of responsibility.

00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 And what are you going to do with that responsibility?

00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 Are you going to set yourself as the standard where everyone thinks,

00:03:23 --> 00:03:23 Oh,

00:03:23 --> 00:03:24 I need to attain to that.

00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 Or are you going to be honest and say, Hey, I am not the standard.

00:03:27 --> 00:03:29 I'm just a punk who's following Jesus with you.

00:03:30 --> 00:03:31 We're on the same road together.

00:03:31 --> 00:03:35 And my job is just to be the guy who points you to him and to

00:03:35 --> 00:03:36 be honest about when

00:03:36 --> 00:03:40 my eyes get off of him and how I need someone to point me to him.

00:03:40 --> 00:03:40 Um,

00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 I just think it's so important for people to understand that if

00:03:43 --> 00:03:44 I could just say to

00:03:44 --> 00:03:45 everybody listening right now,

00:03:45 --> 00:03:46 if you're struggling with this,

00:03:47 --> 00:03:48 you will never arrive.

00:03:48 --> 00:03:49 You will,

00:03:49 --> 00:03:50 until you get to heaven,

00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 there will never be a point in your Christian life where you

00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 reach peak Christian,

00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 where you wake up in the morning and you're like,

00:03:57 --> 00:03:57 oh man,

00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 I woke up at five today and I read all of Leviticus and I

00:04:00 --> 00:04:01 journaled for six hours.

00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 I am the ultimate, like it's never going to happen.

00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 You're never going to have a week where you never sin once.

00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 Like you will always,

00:04:10 --> 00:04:15 be human until we reach the point where we fully become new creations.

00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 And that's not a license to sin,

00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 but it is a license to have more freedom in the sense of

00:04:21 --> 00:04:23 understanding that our

00:04:23 --> 00:04:24 calling is not to perfection.

00:04:24 --> 00:04:26 It is to the perfect one.

00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 If your goal is perfection,

00:04:28 --> 00:04:29 if that is your standard,

00:04:29 --> 00:04:29 if it's,

00:04:29 --> 00:04:30 I just need to be perfect,

00:04:31 --> 00:04:33 you're going to be constantly frustrated,

00:04:33 --> 00:04:35 which is how I felt when I was a young Christian,

00:04:35 --> 00:04:36 constantly.

00:04:41 --> 00:04:43 Thanks for listening to Good Lions.

00:04:43 --> 00:04:43 Stick with us.

00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 Coming up next,

00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 we have a conversation with pastors Brian Stupar and Char

00:04:47 --> 00:04:49 Brodersen about what it's

00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 like to struggle with self-righteousness as a pastor and how we

00:04:52 --> 00:04:53 can move past it.

00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 Here's a couple of thoughts that I had on the whole

00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 self-righteousness topic.

00:05:03 --> 00:05:03 Um,

00:05:03 --> 00:05:07 I was thinking the other word that could be used for

00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 self-righteousness is self-rightness.

00:05:10 --> 00:05:10 Um,

00:05:11 --> 00:05:15 I think why it tends to be so appealing and yet at the same

00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 time so destructive is

00:05:18 --> 00:05:23 that it forms sort of its own self-authenticating club and

00:05:23 --> 00:05:25 tribe where people are

00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 prone to self-congratulate one another,

00:05:29 --> 00:05:30 pat each other on the back,

00:05:31 --> 00:05:32 affirm one another.

00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 I think it's central to the heart of humanity.

00:05:35 --> 00:05:36 We want that.

00:05:36 --> 00:05:40 We want that outward or explicit type of praise

00:05:41 --> 00:05:42 We want to be in the club.

00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 We want to be recognized.

00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 We want to be invited to those conferences and invited to that

00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 table where the

00:05:51 --> 00:05:55 leaders are present.

00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 And we want to say the right things,

00:05:59 --> 00:06:06 utilizing the right language and vocabulary and ideas that kind

00:06:06 --> 00:06:07 of play to the

00:06:07 --> 00:06:07 group think.

00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 There's three thoughts that kind of come to my mind as to

00:06:11 --> 00:06:16 why I think this is so significant and why it kind of plays

00:06:16 --> 00:06:17 into that overall

00:06:17 --> 00:06:18 narrative of self-righteousness.

00:06:18 --> 00:06:19 Number one, it's measurable.

00:06:20 --> 00:06:20 Number two,

00:06:21 --> 00:06:21 contractual,

00:06:22 --> 00:06:24 meaning there's these contracts that are kind of like formed.

00:06:24 --> 00:06:28 Number three, it's self-commending, so measurable.

00:06:28 --> 00:06:33 I think the idea there is it's way more easy to measure

00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 someone's visceral reaction

00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 to the enemy or the perceived enemy

00:06:42 --> 00:06:46 I can't tell you how many pastors' conferences I've been

00:06:46 --> 00:06:48 sitting at tables where

00:06:48 --> 00:06:49 everybody begins to,

00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 or somebody starts by talking about,

00:06:52 --> 00:06:52 hey,

00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 did you hear about this book that so-and-so wrote?

00:06:56 --> 00:06:57 And then all of a sudden, everybody kind of chimes in.

00:06:58 --> 00:06:59 And before you know it,

00:06:59 --> 00:07:05 you have almost like this harmonizing voice of anger or frustration.

00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 And in some ways, just kind of

00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 gossipy type of reaction.

00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 And it's measurable.

00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 Everybody can kind of walk away feeling like,

00:07:16 --> 00:07:16 yes,

00:07:16 --> 00:07:18 we all have a common enemy.

00:07:18 --> 00:07:19 But in reality,

00:07:19 --> 00:07:25 what was happening was a complete removal of any form of love

00:07:26 --> 00:07:27 or kindness or

00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 thinking the best of the other person that might not be part of

00:07:31 --> 00:07:32 that tribe or maybe

00:07:32 --> 00:07:33 once was part of the tribe,

00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 but no longer is part of the tribe.

00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 So I think number one, it's measurable.

00:07:37 --> 00:07:38 It's easy to measure that type of thing.

00:07:38 --> 00:07:39 Number two,

00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 I think contractual,

00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 meaning you scratch my back,

00:07:44 --> 00:07:45 I scratch your back.

00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 And it's a legalistic type of an approach.

00:07:49 --> 00:07:53 It's formed on wages,

00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 contract,

00:07:56 --> 00:07:56 sometimes spoken,

00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 but most of the time it's like an unspoken type of a bond

00:08:00 --> 00:08:01 that's formed between

00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 people within that various tribe.

00:08:04 --> 00:08:04 However,

00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 that works great as long as you are operating within the system.

00:08:09 --> 00:08:11 The moment you break ranks with that system,

00:08:11 --> 00:08:12 the moment you question that system,

00:08:13 --> 00:08:19 you are now viewed as the questioner or the outsider or the one

00:08:19 --> 00:08:20 that is causing problems.

00:08:20 --> 00:08:25 And because it's not a system of grace, you now become the common enemy.

00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 And I can't even tell you how many times I've watched this.

00:08:30 --> 00:08:31 I've watched this happen.

00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 were people that were once kind of on the inside circle,

00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 and they end up becoming the enemy.

00:08:39 --> 00:08:44 And the very voice that they had that was so stringent or so

00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 just visceral towards enemies,

00:08:48 --> 00:08:52 the very people to whom they were speaking now become the

00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 visceral voice against

00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 them because they broke ranks.

00:08:57 --> 00:08:58 So I think number one, measurable.

00:08:58 --> 00:08:59 Number two, contractual.

00:08:59 --> 00:09:01 Number three, self-commending.

00:09:01 --> 00:09:06 and i think again we all have this need to be affirmed and that

00:09:06 --> 00:09:07 self commendation

00:09:08 --> 00:09:21 is a powerful one hey brian uh in reference to your first way and about

00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 self-rightness and kind of the clan tribal

00:09:27 --> 00:09:28 Patting on the back,

00:09:28 --> 00:09:29 you're one of us,

00:09:30 --> 00:09:31 tribal righteousness,

00:09:31 --> 00:09:31 I guess,

00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 just reminds me so much of what's going on right now on the

00:09:34 --> 00:09:36 political left with the

00:09:36 --> 00:09:40 virtue signaling that we see going on social media or Slack,

00:09:40 --> 00:09:40 Slack,

00:09:40 --> 00:09:41 Instagram,

00:09:41 --> 00:09:42 whatever you want to call it.

00:09:43 --> 00:09:47 But just so people have to weigh in and say, yeah, well, I'm with this.

00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 And we're not necessarily even doing righteousness or justice.

00:09:52 --> 00:09:55 But just as long as we kind of tip our hat to it,

00:09:56 --> 00:09:57 speak up for the Me Too movement,

00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 we've done our job.

00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 And that's kind of the new self-righteousness of our culture

00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 right now is being woke,

00:10:06 --> 00:10:06 aware.

00:10:08 --> 00:10:12 you know, active in social engagement, but really only on social media.

00:10:12 --> 00:10:13 So I don't know,

00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 it just kind of triggered some of those thoughts as I was

00:10:16 --> 00:10:16 listening to you.

00:10:16 --> 00:10:26 I was going to read a quote from Dallas Willard,

00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 which I think is super timely.

00:10:28 --> 00:10:29 It's from his book called

00:10:30 --> 00:10:34 renovation of the heart and it's the chapter called the costs

00:10:34 --> 00:10:35 of non-discipleship

00:10:35 --> 00:10:37 so he starts with this question about righteousness and

00:10:37 --> 00:10:39 self-righteousness right

00:10:39 --> 00:10:43 along the lines of what we were talking about he says righteous

00:10:43 --> 00:10:44 meanness among

00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 Christians is a common point of commiseration among Christian

00:10:47 --> 00:10:49 leaders he says a

00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 leader recently asked me why are Christians so mean and the

00:10:52 --> 00:10:52 answer is that

00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 Christians are taught by word and example that it is more

00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 important to be right in

00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 terms of their practice or vessel

00:11:01 --> 00:11:02 than it is to be Christ-like.

00:11:03 --> 00:11:10 Being right licenses a person to be mean, righteously mean, of course.

00:11:10 --> 00:11:14 He goes on to say,

00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 now I must say something to you that you may be mad at me about.

00:11:18 --> 00:11:18 He says,

00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 a fundamental mistake of the conservative side of the Western

00:11:22 --> 00:11:23 church is that its

00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 basic goal is to get people into heaven rather than to get

00:11:27 --> 00:11:28 heaven into people.

00:11:29 --> 00:11:30 This creates groups of people

00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 who may be ready to die, but clearly are not ready to live.

00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 They rarely can get along with one another,

00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 much less than those,

00:11:39 --> 00:11:39 quote-unquote,

00:11:39 --> 00:11:40 on the outside.

00:11:41 --> 00:11:46 Often their most intimate relations are tangles of reciprocal harm,

00:11:46 --> 00:11:47 coldness or resentment,

00:11:48 --> 00:11:49 righteous meanness.

00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 They have become, quote-unquote, Christian without being Christ-like.

00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 I think, obviously, this quote speaks for itself, but...

00:11:59 --> 00:11:59 Char,

00:11:59 --> 00:12:06 you had pointed out that the left progressive movement today,

00:12:06 --> 00:12:07 I think,

00:12:07 --> 00:12:08 tends to,

00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 it's moved into what I would look at as kind of like the zone

00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 of self-righteous attitudes,

00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 at least within the political slash secular sphere.

00:12:20 --> 00:12:22 But the same principles,

00:12:22 --> 00:12:22 I think,

00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 that Willow points out apply,

00:12:24 --> 00:12:26 which is rightness.

00:12:26 --> 00:12:27 Who is right?

00:12:27 --> 00:12:27 Who is wrong?

00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 And I think that plays into the whole self-righteous mentality.

00:12:32 --> 00:12:38 So good conversation.

00:12:38 --> 00:12:40 Brian, I could listen to you talk all day, man.

00:12:40 --> 00:12:40 So good.

00:12:41 --> 00:12:43 And I think just kind of taking this conversation,

00:12:43 --> 00:12:46 I think it naturally flows into that,

00:12:46 --> 00:12:47 what we were talking about,

00:12:48 --> 00:12:49 spiritual disciplines.

00:12:49 --> 00:12:55 Because in our church, we've confused self-righteousness

00:12:56 --> 00:12:57 with good works,

00:12:58 --> 00:12:58 I think,

00:12:58 --> 00:12:59 to some degree,

00:12:59 --> 00:13:01 like there's these blurred lines.

00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 And so what I've been trying to do with our people is talk

00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 about imputed righteousness,

00:13:07 --> 00:13:08 that that is a biblical idea.

00:13:09 --> 00:13:09 Absolutely.

00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 But then there's also infused righteousness.

00:13:13 --> 00:13:15 And, you know, as Jesus says,

00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 imputes his righteousness to us,

00:13:18 --> 00:13:19 then there's this work,

00:13:19 --> 00:13:25 this effort that must be put forth to make that righteousness our own.

00:13:25 --> 00:13:27 And I love the way N.T.

00:13:27 --> 00:13:27 Wright puts it,

00:13:27 --> 00:13:27 you know,

00:13:27 --> 00:13:32 that we practice the spiritual disciplines or habits of the spirit,

00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 of these virtues that are...

00:13:35 --> 00:13:37 hope, faith, and love.

00:13:37 --> 00:13:41 And by practicing them in Christian community,

00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 in consistency with the Word of God,

00:13:44 --> 00:13:44 prayer,

00:13:44 --> 00:13:45 all these things,

00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 that as we practice them,

00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 they become second nature to us.

00:13:50 --> 00:13:55 And we walk in the Spirit and have the mind of the Spirit by

00:13:56 --> 00:13:56 second nature.

00:13:57 --> 00:13:58 It's not natural to us.

00:13:58 --> 00:13:59 It's a learned practice.

00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 and these learned virtues, but in the way of Jesus.

00:14:03 --> 00:14:07 And I think that that's a huge and important conversation for

00:14:07 --> 00:14:08 our generation right now,

00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 because,

00:14:10 --> 00:14:10 you know,

00:14:11 --> 00:14:12 when I was a kid,

00:14:12 --> 00:14:13 I think like you were saying,

00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 Nate and Aaron,

00:14:15 --> 00:14:16 you alluded to this as well.

00:14:16 --> 00:14:21 There was a lot of, you know, just that moral effort being talked about.

00:14:21 --> 00:14:25 And I think the church has done a good job of kind of re, uh,

00:14:26 --> 00:14:31 redefining the gospel in a biblical way and laying that foundation.

00:14:31 --> 00:14:36 But I can see it just going again now to this idea of almost free grace.

00:14:36 --> 00:14:40 And I think it's really important for us to what Dallas Willard

00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 says is the gospel

00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 is not opposed to effort,

00:14:44 --> 00:14:45 but it is opposed to earning.

00:14:46 --> 00:14:50 And so we need to clarify that for our people and for this next

00:14:50 --> 00:14:51 generation of Christians.

00:14:59 --> 00:15:00 I remember a couple of years ago,

00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 I gave a talk at Calgary Costa Mesa's men's group.

00:15:05 --> 00:15:05 And I was talking about,

00:15:06 --> 00:15:06 hey,

00:15:06 --> 00:15:06 you know,

00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 a lot of us have heard testimonies from guys like,

00:15:09 --> 00:15:10 you know,

00:15:10 --> 00:15:11 a Louis Zamperini.

00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 He's the guy from the book Unbroken or the movie Unbroken.

00:15:14 --> 00:15:14 And,

00:15:14 --> 00:15:14 you know,

00:15:14 --> 00:15:18 it's like he's this veteran who's dealing with PTSD,

00:15:18 --> 00:15:19 crazy anger,

00:15:20 --> 00:15:20 night terrors.

00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 He's an alcoholic, drug addict, abuser, all this stuff.

00:15:24 --> 00:15:25 And long story short,

00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 he goes to a Billy Graham crusade and gives his life to Jesus.

00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 And he's never the same.

00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 And I remember growing up, I heard these.

00:15:32 --> 00:15:34 stories again and again and again.

00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 And I'm dealing with incredible,

00:15:37 --> 00:15:39 insatiable lust in my own life and porn addiction.

00:15:40 --> 00:15:41 And I'm just like,

00:15:41 --> 00:15:41 man,

00:15:41 --> 00:15:45 I don't know what's wrong with me because I have been baptized.

00:15:45 --> 00:15:48 I have hands laid over me.

00:15:48 --> 00:15:49 And I want that.

00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 I want that freedom that Louie Zamperini is talking about.

00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 And I just, I can't experience it.

00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 And I'm going to spiritual leaders and they're telling me,

00:15:57 --> 00:15:57 oh,

00:15:57 --> 00:15:58 I need the baptism of the spirit.

00:15:59 --> 00:16:00 Oh, I need to have

00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 hands laid over me and to pray this out and I just you know do

00:16:03 --> 00:16:04 better try harder

00:16:04 --> 00:16:09 and it will go away and And so I was sharing with this men's group.

00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 Maybe maybe you feel stuck Maybe maybe you're like me and I

00:16:12 --> 00:16:14 said I think what we

00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 find in the New Testament is that Louie Zamperini is is

00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 probably a rarity These

00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 guys are the exception and not the rule for the rest of us.

00:16:21 --> 00:16:23 We are going to have to work hard and

00:16:23 --> 00:16:27 at what Peter and Paul say in the epistles of putting off the old man,

00:16:27 --> 00:16:28 putting it to death,

00:16:28 --> 00:16:29 and then putting on Christ,

00:16:29 --> 00:16:33 putting on the mind of Christ and the spiritual disciplines.

00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 And I think that this is a hopeful message that we need to give

00:16:37 --> 00:16:38 to this next

00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 generation of Christians about the practice of the spiritual

00:16:41 --> 00:16:42 discipline so that we

00:16:42 --> 00:16:46 aren't just spiking and then dropping down into the valley,

00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 spiking and then dropping down into the valley,

00:16:48 --> 00:16:51 but so that we live this consistent Jesus...

00:16:52 --> 00:16:56 um following jesus example kind of life that we're called to

00:16:56 --> 00:17:03 live yeah it's a good

00:17:03 --> 00:17:09 word char um effort as opposed to earning that's a such a great

00:17:09 --> 00:17:10 quote from willard

00:17:11 --> 00:17:12 um it's powerful

00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 I think there's some,

00:17:16 --> 00:17:16 I don't know,

00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 evangelical baggage that has to be addressed.

00:17:20 --> 00:17:25 And what I mean by that is with regard to anything that

00:17:25 --> 00:17:28 evangelicalism deems as

00:17:29 --> 00:17:29 ancient religion,

00:17:30 --> 00:17:31 Catholic,

00:17:31 --> 00:17:32 Orthodox,

00:17:33 --> 00:17:34 high church,

00:17:35 --> 00:17:39 I think there's a tendency to view it with a lot of disdain and,

00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 or if anything,

00:17:41 --> 00:17:41 suspicion.

00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 And so I think when people start talking about spiritual

00:17:45 --> 00:17:46 transformation or

00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 spiritual formation or spiritual disciplines,

00:17:50 --> 00:17:51 spiritual practices,

00:17:51 --> 00:17:54 I think these are viewed with a lot of suspicion.

00:17:55 --> 00:17:56 And personally,

00:17:56 --> 00:17:58 I feel like it's one of the areas that needs to be recovered,

00:17:59 --> 00:17:59 in my opinion,

00:17:59 --> 00:18:00 in life.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:05 modern evangelicalism um which is ironic because on one hand

00:18:06 --> 00:18:08 there seems to be a

00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 mindset that the main spiritual discipline that kind of gets

00:18:10 --> 00:18:11 communicated within

00:18:11 --> 00:18:15 evangelical circles is you know aka the quiet time which you

00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 know is sort of this

00:18:17 --> 00:18:21 fusion of reading the bible praying you know journaling

00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 whatever which is which is

00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 wonderful but i think um depending upon i mean i i

00:18:28 --> 00:18:32 work with a lot of younger people and I'm finding now that

00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 there's a lot of again

00:18:35 --> 00:18:39 disdain towards even viewing that type of stuff because that

00:18:39 --> 00:18:40 was kind of what their

00:18:40 --> 00:18:44 mom did so there's this sense that I'm discovering of lostness

00:18:45 --> 00:18:49 There is a detachment from these ancient practices.

00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 Or if they did do these practices, they were detached from meaning.

00:18:55 --> 00:18:56 And when they were detached from meaning,

00:18:56 --> 00:19:01 they become these just routine exercises that are,

00:19:01 --> 00:19:01 you know,

00:19:01 --> 00:19:06 boring or lack any form of meaning or purpose or whatnot.

00:19:06 --> 00:19:06 And at some point,

00:19:07 --> 00:19:08 they just stop doing them,

00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 whether you're going to church,

00:19:10 --> 00:19:10 reading the Bible,

00:19:11 --> 00:19:11 praying,

00:19:11 --> 00:19:12 fasting,

00:19:12 --> 00:19:12 things of that nature.

00:19:14 --> 00:19:15 Like I mentioned earlier,

00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 we're doing a series right now through spiritual practices.

00:19:18 --> 00:19:20 We're calling it Renovation of the Heart.

00:19:20 --> 00:19:25 And I have no problem saying we just ripped that title off of

00:19:25 --> 00:19:26 Dallas Willard

00:19:26 --> 00:19:27 because it's such a good title.

00:19:27 --> 00:19:31 But the reception of this has been really, really good.

00:19:32 --> 00:19:36 Just talking about these spiritual disciplines and how,

00:19:36 --> 00:19:36 like you said,

00:19:36 --> 00:19:37 Char,

00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 they are ways of helping to train us.

00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 They're not the end.

00:19:42 --> 00:19:44 And that's the thing I've been communicating over and over again.

00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 weekly is that these are not the end.

00:19:46 --> 00:19:48 They're simply the means to the end.

00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 The end is ultimately we want to become like Jesus.

00:19:52 --> 00:19:53 We want to be transformed like Jesus.

00:19:55 --> 00:19:59 The effort that we put into partnership with the Holy Spirit.

00:19:59 --> 00:19:59 Again,

00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 it is God does the heavy lifting if you want to think of it

00:20:02 --> 00:20:02 that way.

00:20:03 --> 00:20:07 But there is a partnership to which we are invited by the Holy Spirit.

00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 And that partnership typically looks like us saying yes to God.

00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 Yes, putting on the mind of Christ.

00:20:12 --> 00:20:18 Yes to us, you know, clothing ourselves in the ways of Christ.

00:20:19 --> 00:20:21 I tell people, look, God...

00:20:22 --> 00:20:24 Does not like generosity,

00:20:24 --> 00:20:25 for example,

00:20:25 --> 00:20:29 the practice of generosity that happens by you doing something.

00:20:29 --> 00:20:30 You first of all,

00:20:30 --> 00:20:31 saying yes to God,

00:20:31 --> 00:20:33 maybe even you backing up a little bit.

00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 First of all, admitting the fact that you're not generous, you're stingy.

00:20:37 --> 00:20:38 So confessing that and then.

00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 beginning to enter into or step into various practices that

00:20:42 --> 00:20:43 would make you into a

00:20:43 --> 00:20:44 generous type of a person.

00:20:44 --> 00:20:44 In fact,

00:20:45 --> 00:20:48 we even call the time of giving on Sunday morning now,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:49 not,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:49 hey,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:50 we're going to give an offer,

00:20:50 --> 00:20:51 which is fine.

00:20:51 --> 00:20:54 But we actually say, all right, guys, here's what we're doing right now.

00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 We are doing what we're calling the practice of generosity.

00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 It's a way to exercise that muscle of generosity.

00:21:00 --> 00:21:00 So anyway,

00:21:00 --> 00:21:04 I think that's a great topic to look into because we're really

00:21:04 --> 00:21:05 talking about

00:21:05 --> 00:21:08 instinctive behaviors that we want to see

00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 worked into our spiritual growth,

00:21:12 --> 00:21:13 which eliminates,

00:21:13 --> 00:21:14 hopefully,

00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 as we step into this self-righteousness.

00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 So we're back to that same subject.

00:21:32 --> 00:21:33 Lastly,

00:21:33 --> 00:21:38 The heart of the gospel is about God putting forth,

00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 demonstrating a new form of righteousness,

00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 not just simply God doing good works,

00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 but God setting forthright relationships.

00:21:47 --> 00:21:50 And Jesus obviously being the very embodiment depiction of the

00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 righteousness of God,

00:21:52 --> 00:21:53 God putting things to right.

00:21:53 --> 00:21:57 And the very heart of the gospel is that God

00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 God does not commend our sin.

00:22:01 --> 00:22:02 God deals with our sin.

00:22:02 --> 00:22:06 He calls us to the carpet over our sin, our sinful proclivities.

00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 And yet God welcomes us in the heart of everything.

00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 And that reality melts us if we allow it.

00:22:14 --> 00:22:17 That reality gives us the self,

00:22:17 --> 00:22:21 gives us the accommodation that we desire,

00:22:21 --> 00:22:22 the authentication,

00:22:22 --> 00:22:23 the authentication that we want.

00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 the welcome that we are really oftentimes longing for,

00:22:27 --> 00:22:32 that we have a tendency to search for in other tribes or contexts.

00:22:33 --> 00:22:33 Again,

00:22:34 --> 00:22:38 the appeal of a self-righteous tribe is high,

00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 and yet it's corrosive,

00:22:41 --> 00:22:42 it's destructive,

00:22:42 --> 00:22:43 it's cannibalistic,

00:22:43 --> 00:22:44 I would even add.

00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 And yet the heart of the gospel, the community that Jesus is forming,

00:22:50 --> 00:22:51 It's life-giving.

00:22:51 --> 00:22:53 It's the exact opposite of cannibalistic.

00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 It's one laying their life down for the other.

00:22:55 --> 00:23:00 And part of the gospel, this is our message.

00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 This is the message we preach, and we need to preach to ourselves often.

00:23:09 --> 00:23:10 Hey, thanks for listening.

00:23:10 --> 00:23:13 What a great conversation between Brian and Char.

00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 Thank you so much, guys, for contributing to this podcast.

00:23:15 --> 00:23:17 And now to close this out,

00:23:17 --> 00:23:20 here's the second half of my conversation with my co-host,

00:23:20 --> 00:23:21 Brian Higgins.

00:23:21 --> 00:23:22 Brian, take it away.

00:23:23 --> 00:23:23 Absolutely.

00:23:24 --> 00:23:28 It's so easy to think that if we make progress every day,

00:23:28 --> 00:23:30 then eventually we'll reach our goal.

00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 I mean, our lives are filled with goals that we

00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 strive for until we reach.

00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 We just keep working and pushing and moving until we reach the

00:23:40 --> 00:23:41 goals that we set.

00:23:41 --> 00:23:47 The problem with the goal being perfection is that we eventually,

00:23:47 --> 00:23:48 or I shouldn't say eventually,

00:23:49 --> 00:23:50 as time goes on,

00:23:51 --> 00:23:53 we realize more and more how much farther we have to go.

00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 It's like running a marathon,

00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 but at mile three,

00:23:58 --> 00:23:58 they tell you,

00:23:59 --> 00:23:59 hey,

00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 we added five more miles at the end.

00:24:01 --> 00:24:02 Are you kidding me?

00:24:02 --> 00:24:03 Like, that's just mean.

00:24:03 --> 00:24:04 And then,

00:24:04 --> 00:24:04 you know,

00:24:04 --> 00:24:05 you reach mile six and they're like,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:05 hey,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 we added another five.

00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 And it's like the finish line just keeps getting further and

00:24:09 --> 00:24:10 further away.

00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 And that's not because we're doing anything wrong or because

00:24:14 --> 00:24:15 we've messed anything

00:24:15 --> 00:24:16 up or anything like that.

00:24:17 --> 00:24:23 It's purely because we can only see so much of who God is at

00:24:23 --> 00:24:23 any given time.

00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 And the closer we get to him,

00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 the more aware we become of different elements of his character,

00:24:30 --> 00:24:35 of different habits that he has for us to live in and walk in.

00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 And we need to see more of those as time goes on.

00:24:38 --> 00:24:38 Yeah.

00:24:39 --> 00:24:39 No, I totally agree.

00:24:39 --> 00:24:43 And I love how you defined what your standard is right now as

00:24:43 --> 00:24:44 an adult,

00:24:44 --> 00:24:44 as a

00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 as a husband and as a,

00:24:46 --> 00:24:47 as a pastor,

00:24:48 --> 00:24:49 as somebody who's walked with Jesus for a long time,

00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 your definition of what your relationship is,

00:24:53 --> 00:24:54 your relationship with Jesus doing well,

00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 what does that look like?

00:24:55 --> 00:25:00 I love how he defined it as basically is my heart in sync with Jesus.

00:25:01 --> 00:25:02 That's, that's huge.

00:25:02 --> 00:25:02 Like for me,

00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 I feel the same way when I was younger,

00:25:05 --> 00:25:06 whether or not I was doing good with God,

00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 it depended on how many times I read my Bible that week.

00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 Nowadays it's how obedient am I being to Jesus?

00:25:14 --> 00:25:14 Yeah.

00:25:15 --> 00:25:17 how much do I love Jesus right now?

00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 Because that's something some people get mixed up is it's all

00:25:20 --> 00:25:21 about the love.

00:25:21 --> 00:25:22 It's just, oh, I just love Jesus.

00:25:22 --> 00:25:24 I love listening to worship songs all the time,

00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 but there's no obedience for me.

00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 And in my experience,

00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 the way that God has revealed to me what faithfulness and

00:25:32 --> 00:25:33 righteousness looks like,

00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 it comes through obedience.

00:25:36 --> 00:25:37 And I don't mean that,

00:25:37 --> 00:25:37 again,

00:25:37 --> 00:25:41 to discard everything I've said in this series where I'm saying

00:25:41 --> 00:25:41 it's about

00:25:41 --> 00:25:43 following the rules and keeping the commandments,

00:25:43 --> 00:25:43 but

00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 To me, obedience is something that comes out of a right relationship.

00:25:48 --> 00:25:49 If I understand that Jesus is my master,

00:25:50 --> 00:25:51 if he really is my Lord,

00:25:51 --> 00:25:52 if he really is my king,

00:25:52 --> 00:25:54 and if he's my best friend who knows best for me,

00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 then I am going to do the things that he tells me to do when he tells me.

00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 To live a certain way or go somewhere or go sit down and love

00:26:02 --> 00:26:04 on someone and preach

00:26:04 --> 00:26:08 to them or buy them a sandwich because they're hungry or whatever.

00:26:08 --> 00:26:09 To me,

00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 that's what makes me feel like I'm living the Christian life is

00:26:12 --> 00:26:13 when I'm doing the

00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 things that Jesus is telling me to do through his word and

00:26:16 --> 00:26:16 through the spirit.

00:26:17 --> 00:26:17 Yeah,

00:26:17 --> 00:26:22 and think about the right response to a savior is gratitude and love.

00:26:23 --> 00:26:23 Yeah.

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The Self-Righteous Pastor | Righteousness mini series Pt.5

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