Questions About Systemic Racism, With Benjamin Morrison
*The GoodLion PodcastDecember 05, 2020
4
01:54:27104.81 MB

Questions About Systemic Racism, With Benjamin Morrison

🎙️ Aaron Salvato🎙️ Aaron SalvatoHost
🎙️ Brian Higgins🎙️ Brian HigginsCo-Host

On this week's episode, Aaron sits down with Pastor Benjamin Morrison to discuss two articles he wrote for CalvaryChapel.com about the issue of systemic racism. The articles received some pushback due to the tense feelings many people have in this moment around the topic, and so Aaron and Ben take time to flesh out a lot of the common concerns and issues that revolve around the term. It's a lengthy yet interesting discussion that gets to the heart of the issue and how Christians can think critically about it.


Benjamin Morrison is the planter and lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Svitlovodsk, Ukraine. He is also the Coordinator for City to City Ukraine and serves as Training Coordinator for City to City Europe.


You can read Ben's article's here:


PELAGIAN RACISM: A LESSON FROM CHURCH HISTORY


PELAGIAN RACISM PART 2: WILL PREACHING THE GOSPEL FIX SYSTEMIC RACISM?


You can follow Ben at @ccsvitlovodsk on twitter/insta. Benjamin Morrison on FB.


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00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Hey everybody, welcome to the Good Lion Podcast.

00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 This is Aaron Salvato and I'm here today with Benjamin Morrison.

00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 How's it going, man?

00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 It's good to have you.

00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 It's your first time on the show, hopefully not your last.

00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 And today we're going to be talking all about racism.

00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 Super fun conversation, right?

00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 Yeah, just, you know, a light, easy listening topic.

00:00:23 --> 00:00:24 Yes, exactly.

00:00:24 --> 00:00:28 So you got on my radar from calvarychapel.com.

00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 I'm a part of the team at CGN that runs the website and edits it.

00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 And I saw your article go up and I was just struck by it.

00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 And so I thought we'd bring you on and ask you some questions

00:00:39 --> 00:00:40 and do a deep dive

00:00:40 --> 00:00:41 into the heart of that article.

00:00:41 --> 00:00:43 But before we get into it,

00:00:43 --> 00:00:47 can you maybe give our guests just an idea of who you are and

00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 what you do?

00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 Yeah, so my name is Benjamin.

00:00:51 --> 00:00:55 I pastor a Calvary Chapel in Ukraine that my wife and I planted

00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 15 years ago now.

00:00:57 --> 00:00:59 I grew up in the U.S.,

00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 but moved to Ukraine at the age of 20,

00:01:02 --> 00:01:03 fresh out of Bible college,

00:01:04 --> 00:01:05 and I haven't been here since.

00:01:05 --> 00:01:06 So,

00:01:06 --> 00:01:06 yeah,

00:01:07 --> 00:01:11 besides being the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel in Svitlovodsk,

00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 is how you say the name of the city where we are,

00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 I'm not going to even try to pronounce that.

00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 There is a trick for how you say it.

00:01:18 --> 00:01:18 Do you want to know the trick?

00:01:18 --> 00:01:19 Okay, yeah.

00:01:19 --> 00:01:20 What's the trick?

00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 So the trick that I tell everyone,

00:01:23 --> 00:01:24 you know,

00:01:24 --> 00:01:25 little like sweet and low,

00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 little pink packets that give you cancer if you eat too many of them?

00:01:27 --> 00:01:28 Yeah, yeah.

00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 So just think sweet and low only take the N out.

00:01:31 --> 00:01:32 So it's sweet, low.

00:01:32 --> 00:01:33 Sweet, low.

00:01:33 --> 00:01:33 Say sweet, low.

00:01:34 --> 00:01:34 Yeah, that's easy.

00:01:34 --> 00:01:35 Sweet, low.

00:01:35 --> 00:01:36 And then volks like a Volkswagen.

00:01:37 --> 00:01:38 So it's sweet, low, volks.

00:01:38 --> 00:01:39 Sweet, low, volks.

00:01:39 --> 00:01:40 Oh, yeah.

00:01:40 --> 00:01:41 There you go.

00:01:41 --> 00:01:41 Yeah, that's it.

00:01:42 --> 00:01:42 That's a great trick.

00:01:45 --> 00:01:46 Yeah, so that's where we are.

00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 That's where our church is.

00:01:48 --> 00:01:54 And then also I am the director of City to City Ukraine.

00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 So City to City is a ministry that was actually started by Tim

00:01:58 --> 00:01:59 Keller in New York City.

00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 And now it has kind of affiliates all over the globe.

00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 So I'm the director for City to City in Ukraine.

00:02:05 --> 00:02:09 So basically we're trying to see movements of the gospel in the

00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 key cities of Ukraine,

00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 primarily through training of church planters.

00:02:13 --> 00:02:15 So that's been going since 2016.

00:02:16 --> 00:02:20 And then I am also currently serving as the training

00:02:20 --> 00:02:21 coordinator for City to City Europe.

00:02:22 --> 00:02:23 So kind of on a Europe level.

00:02:23 --> 00:02:25 I have a wonderful wife, Lena.

00:02:25 --> 00:02:26 She is Ukrainian.

00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 So my better half is Ukrainian.

00:02:29 --> 00:02:31 And then we have two kids, Abigail and Isaac.

00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 Abby actually turns 14 tomorrow.

00:02:34 --> 00:02:35 Congrats.

00:02:35 --> 00:02:36 Happy birthday, Abby.

00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 Shout out to Abby.

00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 Awesome.

00:02:40 --> 00:02:41 Awesome.

00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 Well, thanks for your background.

00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 Now we all know you a little bit better.

00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 And before we jump into the questions,

00:02:48 --> 00:02:52 I'd love for you to just break down for us the article that you wrote.

00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 What was the title of that article?

00:02:54 --> 00:02:56 So it was actually two articles.

00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 It was kind of a two-part short series.

00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 The first one is titled Pelagian Racism.

00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 And kind of the title needs to be explained a little bit.

00:03:06 --> 00:03:07 The question is,

00:03:07 --> 00:03:07 again,

00:03:07 --> 00:03:08 the topic,

00:03:08 --> 00:03:08 as you've already mentioned,

00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 is systemic racism.

00:03:10 --> 00:03:12 So it kind of starts out discussing, you know,

00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 this idea that there's kind of a lot of pushback,

00:03:16 --> 00:03:16 you know,

00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 particularly among certain groups of Christians that,

00:03:19 --> 00:03:19 you know,

00:03:19 --> 00:03:20 as soon as you say systemic racism,

00:03:20 --> 00:03:21 it's like,

00:03:21 --> 00:03:21 well,

00:03:21 --> 00:03:22 you know,

00:03:22 --> 00:03:23 either I don't believe in that or,

00:03:23 --> 00:03:23 you know,

00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 I'm not part of that because,

00:03:25 --> 00:03:25 you know,

00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 I don't hate,

00:03:26 --> 00:03:26 you know,

00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 black people or people of other ethnicities or,

00:03:29 --> 00:03:30 you know,

00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 it's cultural Marxism or whatever.

00:03:32 --> 00:03:36 And kind of the goal of the first article,

00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 let's put it that way,

00:03:37 --> 00:03:37 is to really draw out that,

00:03:38 --> 00:03:38 you know,

00:03:38 --> 00:03:38 Although,

00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 you know,

00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 these are valid concerns and questions that really this concept

00:03:43 --> 00:03:44 of systemic racism

00:03:44 --> 00:03:49 is born from a biblical understanding of the doctrine of sin.

00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 And so we should take it seriously.

00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 The title, Pelagian Racism.

00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 So there was this guy back in church history, Pelagius.

00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 in the fifth century AD, basically he denied, you know, original sin.

00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 He denied that humans were born fallen.

00:04:04 --> 00:04:04 He thought that Adam,

00:04:05 --> 00:04:05 you know,

00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 was kind of sinful only for himself and only affected the rest

00:04:08 --> 00:04:09 of us as sort of a

00:04:09 --> 00:04:10 bad example,

00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 but basically everybody had a completely fresh slate to start from.

00:04:13 --> 00:04:14 Obviously he was,

00:04:15 --> 00:04:15 you know,

00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 eventually condemned as a heretic because this is not what the

00:04:17 --> 00:04:18 Bible says.

00:04:18 --> 00:04:23 You know, the problem is that a lot of times, and here's the analogy,

00:04:23 --> 00:04:27 that people kind of have a Pelagian view of racism,

00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 where they'll say,

00:04:28 --> 00:04:28 you know,

00:04:28 --> 00:04:28 well,

00:04:29 --> 00:04:30 if I individually,

00:04:30 --> 00:04:31 personally,

00:04:31 --> 00:04:32 consciously,

00:04:32 --> 00:04:32 you know,

00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 don't hate people of other ethnicities,

00:04:34 --> 00:04:34 therefore,

00:04:34 --> 00:04:35 you know,

00:04:35 --> 00:04:36 there's no racism,

00:04:37 --> 00:04:37 you know.

00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 So the reality is the Bible says that sin is,

00:04:40 --> 00:04:40 you know,

00:04:40 --> 00:04:41 it's part of nature.

00:04:42 --> 00:04:43 It's part of the world system.

00:04:43 --> 00:04:46 So the Bible actually talks about sin in a systemic way,

00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 not only in a personal and individual way,

00:04:48 --> 00:04:48 you know.

00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 And I mean, we can see that in a number of examples in the article.

00:04:54 --> 00:04:54 You know,

00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 so just because you're not out robbing banks doesn't mean that

00:04:57 --> 00:04:58 you don't have,

00:04:58 --> 00:04:59 you know,

00:04:59 --> 00:05:00 issues of greed in your heart.

00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 We live in a culture that in various ways promotes greed.

00:05:04 --> 00:05:05 And so to kind of answer the question,

00:05:06 --> 00:05:06 well,

00:05:06 --> 00:05:06 you know,

00:05:06 --> 00:05:10 are you greedy as a yes or no question is way oversimplified.

00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 Like probably a better question would be,

00:05:12 --> 00:05:12 you know,

00:05:13 --> 00:05:14 where do you struggle with greed?

00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 How much greed is in your heart?

00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 And truth be told, it's really the same with racism.

00:05:18 --> 00:05:19 It's not like yes or no.

00:05:20 --> 00:05:20 You know,

00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 kind of the same way you could do with pride or lust or sort of

00:05:23 --> 00:05:23 these other heart

00:05:23 --> 00:05:24 level sins.

00:05:25 --> 00:05:25 You know,

00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 so the better question is,

00:05:27 --> 00:05:27 you know,

00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 where are the ways that kind of,

00:05:29 --> 00:05:29 you know,

00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 racism and again,

00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 living in a culture that,

00:05:33 --> 00:05:33 you know,

00:05:34 --> 00:05:37 in various ways has promoted and even continues to promote a

00:05:37 --> 00:05:38 certain racist views,

00:05:39 --> 00:05:39 you know,

00:05:39 --> 00:05:40 approaches to things,

00:05:40 --> 00:05:41 you know,

00:05:41 --> 00:05:42 where is that affecting us?

00:05:42 --> 00:05:43 So that's sort of the better question.

00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 And so that's the first article really is to kind of lay that

00:05:46 --> 00:05:47 out as the issue.

00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 So the second article,

00:05:49 --> 00:05:53 the subtitle is will preaching the gospel fix systemic racism.

00:05:53 --> 00:05:55 And so in that,

00:05:55 --> 00:05:55 you know,

00:05:55 --> 00:05:57 kind of moving along that,

00:05:57 --> 00:05:58 let's say somebody agrees with the fact that,

00:05:59 --> 00:05:59 okay,

00:05:59 --> 00:05:59 you know,

00:05:59 --> 00:05:59 there's,

00:05:59 --> 00:06:00 there is racism,

00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 maybe even on a systemic level in different places in society.

00:06:04 --> 00:06:04 But,

00:06:04 --> 00:06:04 you know,

00:06:04 --> 00:06:05 as Christians,

00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 like we should just preach the gospel and not worry about any of that.

00:06:09 --> 00:06:10 Right.

00:06:10 --> 00:06:10 Right.

00:06:10 --> 00:06:11 So,

00:06:11 --> 00:06:11 you know,

00:06:11 --> 00:06:12 kind of I go into,

00:06:12 --> 00:06:13 you know,

00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 where that's right and where it's maybe not quite right.

00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 So obviously, first of all, you know, only the gospel can change hearts.

00:06:19 --> 00:06:23 And that needs to be emphasized that that's where it's really right,

00:06:23 --> 00:06:25 is that you cannot change hearts through,

00:06:25 --> 00:06:25 you know,

00:06:25 --> 00:06:26 policy.

00:06:26 --> 00:06:27 You cannot change hearts through,

00:06:28 --> 00:06:28 you know,

00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 kind of revamping these different structures like the gospel

00:06:31 --> 00:06:32 has to do that work.

00:06:32 --> 00:06:33 And really,

00:06:33 --> 00:06:33 you know,

00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 racism in the end is a form of self-justification,

00:06:37 --> 00:06:37 right?

00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 It's trying to sort of prove your worth by,

00:06:40 --> 00:06:40 you know,

00:06:41 --> 00:06:42 demeaning the worth of other ethnicities.

00:06:43 --> 00:06:44 And so,

00:06:44 --> 00:06:44 you know,

00:06:44 --> 00:06:48 the gospel says that while we actually kind of disproved our

00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 worth through our own sin,

00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 but Christ in his grace has given us his worth,

00:06:53 --> 00:06:53 you know?

00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 And so that actually is what deals with that

00:06:57 --> 00:06:57 Nevertheless,

00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 then I go on to kind of say that,

00:06:59 --> 00:06:59 you know,

00:06:59 --> 00:07:00 the gospel,

00:07:00 --> 00:07:06 if we truncate it to think of it only as sort of individualized forgiveness,

00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 that's an important part of the gospel,

00:07:08 --> 00:07:09 but it's not the whole gospel.

00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 Yeah, there's a collective element there.

00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 There's a collective element,

00:07:13 --> 00:07:13 you know,

00:07:13 --> 00:07:15 ultimately Christ is coming again,

00:07:15 --> 00:07:15 you know,

00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 to establish a universal kingdom,

00:07:18 --> 00:07:18 right?

00:07:19 --> 00:07:19 That is,

00:07:19 --> 00:07:20 you know,

00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 the transforming of not only individuals,

00:07:22 --> 00:07:23 but the entire system.

00:07:23 --> 00:07:27 And while only Christ does that fully and completely,

00:07:27 --> 00:07:27 you know,

00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 as his church are called to reflect that,

00:07:30 --> 00:07:31 to be a sign of that,

00:07:31 --> 00:07:32 to be salt and light,

00:07:33 --> 00:07:33 as Jesus said,

00:07:33 --> 00:07:34 in the world.

00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 So,

00:07:35 --> 00:07:35 you know,

00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 it's kind of there's an issue where when we say,

00:07:38 --> 00:07:38 well,

00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 just preach to the gospel and kind of ignore these questions of,

00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 you know,

00:07:43 --> 00:07:44 systemic racism,

00:07:45 --> 00:07:45 you know,

00:07:45 --> 00:07:50 we're kind of acknowledging that individuals affect culture,

00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 but we're forgetting that culture affects individuals.

00:07:54 --> 00:07:55 It shapes us.

00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 And so if we actually do care about individuals,

00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 we also should care about culture.

00:08:00 --> 00:08:03 We also should care about, let's say, systemic level issues.

00:08:03 --> 00:08:04 Yes.

00:08:04 --> 00:08:04 Yeah.

00:08:04 --> 00:08:08 you know and i kind of go into you know some some wrong

00:08:08 --> 00:08:10 approaches to that and also

00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 there's kind of this issue of consistency i have to say this is

00:08:13 --> 00:08:14 particularly within

00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 the u.s but you know a lot of the people not everyone but a lot

00:08:18 --> 00:08:19 of people who would

00:08:19 --> 00:08:23 kind of be against really the concept of systemic racism or

00:08:23 --> 00:08:24 even if they're ready

00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 to acknowledge it you know kind of say well let's just sort of

00:08:26 --> 00:08:27 ignore it and preach

00:08:27 --> 00:08:32 the gospel when you bring up something like abortion their tone changes

00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 right it's like well here's another injustice but you know

00:08:36 --> 00:08:37 we're not content to

00:08:37 --> 00:08:39 just ah well let's just ignore it and sort of preach the gospel

00:08:39 --> 00:08:40 hope it goes away

00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 and that's really the point is that it's not an either or thing

00:08:43 --> 00:08:44 it's not either

00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 preach the gospel or address issues of systemic injustice

00:08:48 --> 00:08:49 rather the gospel

00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 actually is what enables us and calls us to speak into these

00:08:53 --> 00:08:55 issues you know not

00:08:55 --> 00:08:57 only just think individually but but for our

00:08:58 --> 00:09:00 culture for our nation, for our world.

00:09:00 --> 00:09:01 Yeah.

00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 So, I mean, kind of as a summary, that's, that's the two articles.

00:09:04 --> 00:09:05 Sounds like to me,

00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 just listening to what you're saying and having read the articles,

00:09:08 --> 00:09:10 it sounds like you're trying to approach this topic,

00:09:10 --> 00:09:12 not from like a political lens,

00:09:12 --> 00:09:14 but from a pastoral and theological lens.

00:09:14 --> 00:09:17 What I'm getting is you're not saying,

00:09:17 --> 00:09:17 you know,

00:09:17 --> 00:09:21 my job here is to convince you that what the political left

00:09:21 --> 00:09:22 says about systemic

00:09:22 --> 00:09:26 racism is 100 percent accurate or what the political right says

00:09:26 --> 00:09:26 about systemic

00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 racism is 100 percent accurate.

00:09:29 --> 00:09:30 You're trying to say,

00:09:30 --> 00:09:30 hey,

00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 this is something our culture is talking about.

00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 And a lot of us are tempted to throw the baby out with the

00:09:35 --> 00:09:36 bathwater and just say,

00:09:36 --> 00:09:37 yeah,

00:09:37 --> 00:09:38 this doesn't really exist.

00:09:38 --> 00:09:42 It's not really a problem because maybe we're reacting to what

00:09:42 --> 00:09:43 the political media

00:09:43 --> 00:09:44 scape is saying about it.

00:09:44 --> 00:09:45 And you're trying to say, well, no, hold on.

00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 There is actually a biblical way we can look at this and there

00:09:50 --> 00:09:51 is a theological

00:09:51 --> 00:09:52 framework for this.

00:09:52 --> 00:09:53 And I mean,

00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 would you say that's kind of an accurate assessment of what

00:09:55 --> 00:09:56 you're trying to do?

00:09:56 --> 00:09:56 Yeah,

00:09:56 --> 00:09:57 that's totally fair,

00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 because I think as Christians,

00:09:59 --> 00:09:59 you know,

00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 we need to have our thinking formed not by,

00:10:02 --> 00:10:02 you know,

00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 pundits on the left or pundits on the right,

00:10:04 --> 00:10:05 but,

00:10:05 --> 00:10:05 you know,

00:10:05 --> 00:10:06 by scripture.

00:10:06 --> 00:10:11 The gospel comes into any culture and challenges it at different points,

00:10:11 --> 00:10:12 as well as because of God's common grace,

00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 it also agrees with it at certain points.

00:10:15 --> 00:10:15 Yeah.

00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 So to say,

00:10:16 --> 00:10:16 you know,

00:10:16 --> 00:10:17 this group is 100% wrong,

00:10:17 --> 00:10:18 this group is 100% right,

00:10:19 --> 00:10:20 like that just never happens.

00:10:20 --> 00:10:21 The only person who was 100% right was Jesus.

00:10:21 --> 00:10:21 Yeah.

00:10:23 --> 00:10:23 Right.

00:10:23 --> 00:10:26 And I would I mean, I don't even honestly like the labels left and right.

00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 It's overly simplified from even a political science point of view.

00:10:30 --> 00:10:30 Right.

00:10:30 --> 00:10:31 And you're from the Ukraine.

00:10:31 --> 00:10:34 So obviously you're thinking from a different perspective.

00:10:34 --> 00:10:35 But for us right now,

00:10:35 --> 00:10:36 especially during an election year,

00:10:37 --> 00:10:39 the people in the United States listening to the show,

00:10:39 --> 00:10:43 the framework that a lot of us feel forced to operate from is

00:10:43 --> 00:10:44 that left or right

00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 paradigm for better or for worse.

00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 My encouragement would be to expand that,

00:10:49 --> 00:10:49 you know,

00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 the direct topic of our conversation.

00:10:53 --> 00:10:55 Yeah, that's a whole nother episode.

00:10:55 --> 00:10:55 You know,

00:10:55 --> 00:10:56 this is great,

00:10:56 --> 00:10:57 honestly,

00:10:57 --> 00:10:57 because,

00:10:57 --> 00:10:58 you know,

00:10:58 --> 00:11:02 I want Christians to start listening to pastors more than they

00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 do pundits.

00:11:03 --> 00:11:03 You know,

00:11:03 --> 00:11:06 I was listening to Ed Stetzer talk about this and he was saying

00:11:07 --> 00:11:08 he was talking to a

00:11:08 --> 00:11:10 pastor who was just upset because he was like,

00:11:10 --> 00:11:10 you know,

00:11:10 --> 00:11:14 I don't understand why I get up and preach on a Sunday and I'm

00:11:14 --> 00:11:14 trying to teach

00:11:14 --> 00:11:15 people how to live.

00:11:15 --> 00:11:17 I'm trying to teach them the way of Jesus.

00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 And then my people turn around and they live the way that Fox

00:11:20 --> 00:11:21 News tells them to

00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 live or the way that CNN tells them to live.

00:11:23 --> 00:11:24 And Ed responded.

00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 He was like, well,

00:11:25 --> 00:11:26 Yeah, think about it.

00:11:26 --> 00:11:26 I mean,

00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 we get them for one hour a week,

00:11:28 --> 00:11:29 maybe two if they go to a midweek service.

00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 But the news, the news is on 24-7.

00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 The radio is on 24-7.

00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 So, of course, that's what shapes their worldview.

00:11:39 --> 00:11:40 Part of the mission of the show,

00:11:40 --> 00:11:42 one of the things we're trying to do is just help people to

00:11:42 --> 00:11:43 think through things,

00:11:43 --> 00:11:44 you know,

00:11:44 --> 00:11:44 hard things,

00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 hard questions from a theological frame point.

00:11:48 --> 00:11:48 And so,

00:11:49 --> 00:11:49 you know,

00:11:49 --> 00:11:49 with that,

00:11:49 --> 00:11:52 maybe let's jump into some of these questions.

00:11:52 --> 00:11:52 How does that sound?

00:11:53 --> 00:11:53 Yeah, great.

00:11:54 --> 00:11:58 One thing I want to talk to you about is the idea of systemic racism.

00:11:59 --> 00:12:00 That's a loaded term.

00:12:01 --> 00:12:05 It's a term that's caused a lot of drama in the Christian world.

00:12:05 --> 00:12:11 So for you, when you say systemic racism, what exactly do you mean?

00:12:11 --> 00:12:12 That is an excellent question.

00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 And I think, you know, definitions are a good place to start.

00:12:15 --> 00:12:16 I mean,

00:12:16 --> 00:12:17 at its basic,

00:12:17 --> 00:12:18 most basic level,

00:12:19 --> 00:12:19 you know,

00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 it's racism that,

00:12:21 --> 00:12:22 you know,

00:12:22 --> 00:12:23 is contrasted to,

00:12:23 --> 00:12:23 let's say,

00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 on an individual level where,

00:12:25 --> 00:12:25 you know,

00:12:25 --> 00:12:26 you have an individual who's,

00:12:27 --> 00:12:27 you know,

00:12:28 --> 00:12:29 having racist,

00:12:29 --> 00:12:29 let's say,

00:12:29 --> 00:12:30 inclinations,

00:12:30 --> 00:12:31 you know,

00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 where it's kind of baked into the system.

00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 In a sense, you could almost say baked into the culture.

00:12:36 --> 00:12:36 Hmm.

00:12:37 --> 00:12:43 So, I mean, it does include legislation, but it's not only legislation.

00:12:43 --> 00:12:43 You know,

00:12:44 --> 00:12:45 even in one of the articles I use,

00:12:46 --> 00:12:47 the example of kind of,

00:12:47 --> 00:12:47 you know,

00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 dealing in the book of Esther.

00:12:50 --> 00:12:50 Right.

00:12:50 --> 00:12:54 Haman wants to wants to destroy the Jewish people and they get

00:12:54 --> 00:12:55 rid of Haman.

00:12:55 --> 00:12:55 Right.

00:12:55 --> 00:12:56 Haman gets hung.

00:12:56 --> 00:12:57 They get rid of the racist.

00:12:58 --> 00:12:58 Right.

00:12:58 --> 00:12:59 So problem solved.

00:12:59 --> 00:13:00 Well, no, it's not.

00:13:00 --> 00:13:04 because you know through in in his case through legislation it

00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 got baked into the

00:13:06 --> 00:13:10 system and so they actually after heyman was out of the picture

00:13:10 --> 00:13:10 they still had to

00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 deal with let's say the remnants you know the the results of

00:13:14 --> 00:13:15 what he had put into

00:13:15 --> 00:13:19 motion and really that's kind of a great illustration for you

00:13:19 --> 00:13:21 know systemic racism

00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 like i said that was not only legislative

00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 it can kind of come through secondary policies and whatnot as well.

00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 So that would be sort of a short answer to that question.

00:13:30 --> 00:13:30 Okay.

00:13:30 --> 00:13:31 Okay.

00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 So yeah, knowing that term causes a lot of drama.

00:13:34 --> 00:13:39 If I could just in a minute kind of encapsulate in a nutshell that drama.

00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 I was talking to a friend who's a pastor and he was expressing

00:13:43 --> 00:13:44 to me that there's

00:13:44 --> 00:13:47 this kind of distinct disconnect between generations when it

00:13:47 --> 00:13:48 comes to the term.

00:13:49 --> 00:13:49 And

00:13:49 --> 00:13:54 What I mean by that is the understanding of what systemic racism means.

00:13:55 --> 00:13:56 So this pastor friend of mine,

00:13:56 --> 00:13:57 he's a millennial,

00:13:57 --> 00:13:59 he's like an older millennial.

00:13:59 --> 00:14:02 And so he was saying that the younger generation,

00:14:02 --> 00:14:04 when they're talking about the word systemic,

00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 what they mean,

00:14:06 --> 00:14:08 and he was having this conversation with his dad,

00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 who's also in ministry.

00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 they were talking about their differences and view on this so

00:14:12 --> 00:14:13 he's saying the

00:14:13 --> 00:14:17 younger generation they view systemic the word systemic as

00:14:17 --> 00:14:18 saying okay there's

00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 corruption in the systems there are places in the systems

00:14:23 --> 00:14:24 concerning for instance

00:14:24 --> 00:14:29 law enforcement legislation areas in culture where things break down

00:14:29 --> 00:14:31 And because of the racism of the past,

00:14:31 --> 00:14:33 like slavery and Jim Crow,

00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 that stuff hasn't just gone away overnight.

00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 And so there's still places in the system that are problematic

00:14:39 --> 00:14:40 and there's issues

00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 and it's causing some racist outcomes.

00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 And so we should acknowledge it and we should address it and

00:14:45 --> 00:14:47 work to stop it where we see it.

00:14:47 --> 00:14:48 And then his dad,

00:14:48 --> 00:14:49 who's a pastor,

00:14:49 --> 00:14:50 responded and said,

00:14:50 --> 00:14:50 okay,

00:14:50 --> 00:14:50 well,

00:14:50 --> 00:14:51 son,

00:14:51 --> 00:14:52 for us boomers,

00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 when you say systemic racism,

00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 what we hear is it sounds like when you say systemic,

00:14:57 --> 00:15:01 it sounds like you're saying the entire government is 100%

00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 racist and all of the

00:15:03 --> 00:15:07 police forces are racist and all of the judges are racist and

00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 the entire system is racist,

00:15:10 --> 00:15:11 like the whole system.

00:15:12 --> 00:15:16 And it's like you're saying, son, even the Constitution itself is racist.

00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 So when you say systemic racism,

00:15:19 --> 00:15:23 it sounds like you're accusing a country that I love very much

00:15:23 --> 00:15:24 of being racist.

00:15:24 --> 00:15:28 And so I just thought, man, what a great snapshot of where we're at.

00:15:28 --> 00:15:32 We have this term, but there's not an agreement on what that term means.

00:15:32 --> 00:15:37 So how can people of different generations and ways of thinking

00:15:37 --> 00:15:38 bridge that gap

00:15:39 --> 00:15:40 when it comes to this term?

00:15:40 --> 00:15:44 I think first and foremost, the way that you just stated, right?

00:15:44 --> 00:15:44 I mean,

00:15:44 --> 00:15:45 they sat down,

00:15:45 --> 00:15:46 they had a conversation,

00:15:47 --> 00:15:47 each of them kind of,

00:15:48 --> 00:15:48 you know,

00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 rather than just tossing out terms,

00:15:51 --> 00:15:51 which are,

00:15:51 --> 00:15:52 you know,

00:15:52 --> 00:15:53 sometimes somewhat volatile,

00:15:53 --> 00:15:54 you know,

00:15:54 --> 00:15:55 kind of buzzwords and whatnot,

00:15:55 --> 00:15:59 they actually took the time to define what they mean to listen

00:15:59 --> 00:15:59 to one another,

00:16:00 --> 00:16:00 which is,

00:16:00 --> 00:16:00 I mean,

00:16:00 --> 00:16:01 that's incredible.

00:16:01 --> 00:16:02 That's a great example, I think.

00:16:03 --> 00:16:03 You know,

00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 so so being careful to nuance,

00:16:07 --> 00:16:07 you know,

00:16:07 --> 00:16:08 to even ask a question,

00:16:08 --> 00:16:08 you know,

00:16:09 --> 00:16:09 when I talk like,

00:16:09 --> 00:16:10 you know,

00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 let's say this millennial friend of yours,

00:16:12 --> 00:16:12 you know,

00:16:12 --> 00:16:14 when I say systemic racism,

00:16:14 --> 00:16:15 what do you hear?

00:16:15 --> 00:16:15 Right.

00:16:15 --> 00:16:20 What what what do you how do you understand what I'm talking about?

00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 And just take time to actually learn to listen to one another.

00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 You know,

00:16:23 --> 00:16:23 and unfortunately,

00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 I think that's something that we've really in many ways lost

00:16:26 --> 00:16:27 the art of doing.

00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 You know, social media hasn't really helped that.

00:16:30 --> 00:16:32 We've we've learned to kind of,

00:16:32 --> 00:16:32 you know,

00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 comment and tweet at each other rather than listen to each other.

00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 You know,

00:16:37 --> 00:16:37 and unfortunately,

00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 I think you do see a lot of these kinds of,

00:16:40 --> 00:16:40 you know,

00:16:40 --> 00:16:42 things that ought to be conversations.

00:16:43 --> 00:16:44 being had in the,

00:16:44 --> 00:16:44 you know,

00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 in the public eye on social media,

00:16:47 --> 00:16:52 which usually does not lead to a lot of empathy and mutual understanding.

00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 It's unfortunately often about just kind of scoring points and,

00:16:55 --> 00:16:55 you know,

00:16:56 --> 00:16:56 you know,

00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 kind of a gotcha thing here or there.

00:16:58 --> 00:16:58 Right.

00:16:59 --> 00:17:03 So, yeah, I mean, I think starting with definitions is really key.

00:17:04 --> 00:17:05 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 And when it comes to definitions,

00:17:09 --> 00:17:13 then when you have two opposing definitions for us in ministry,

00:17:13 --> 00:17:17 what is a good deciding factor for which definition we say,

00:17:17 --> 00:17:17 OK,

00:17:17 --> 00:17:19 this one is more accurate than the other?

00:17:19 --> 00:17:20 That's a good question.

00:17:21 --> 00:17:23 I mean, obviously, it depends what you're talking about.

00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 If it's biblical terms,

00:17:25 --> 00:17:25 then,

00:17:25 --> 00:17:26 you know,

00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 you have kind of some more authority with it.

00:17:28 --> 00:17:28 Right.

00:17:29 --> 00:17:30 I think the important thing,

00:17:30 --> 00:17:31 especially with sort of these,

00:17:31 --> 00:17:32 you know,

00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 kind of very potentially volatile terms,

00:17:35 --> 00:17:36 you know,

00:17:36 --> 00:17:38 of cultural Marxism or...

00:17:38 --> 00:17:39 Systemic racism or whatever,

00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 whatever,

00:17:40 --> 00:17:40 you know,

00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 these kind of loaded terms that people are using.

00:17:43 --> 00:17:44 Right.

00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 To again,

00:17:45 --> 00:17:49 to define it because you realize that that people who are maybe

00:17:49 --> 00:17:50 ideologically on

00:17:50 --> 00:17:51 the other side of the aisle,

00:17:51 --> 00:17:52 so to speak,

00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 are are are creating their definitions by listening to,

00:17:57 --> 00:17:57 you know,

00:17:57 --> 00:17:58 in many cases,

00:17:58 --> 00:17:59 kind of pundits.

00:17:59 --> 00:18:03 to people who are really demonizing the other side in many ways,

00:18:04 --> 00:18:04 I think that,

00:18:05 --> 00:18:05 you know,

00:18:05 --> 00:18:06 you need to really,

00:18:06 --> 00:18:07 again,

00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 kind of lay out just the basic definition.

00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 So again, systemic racism, right?

00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 I mean, you can't get more basic than it's racism in a system.

00:18:15 --> 00:18:15 Yeah.

00:18:16 --> 00:18:17 I mean, that's kind of right there, you know.

00:18:18 --> 00:18:18 Now,

00:18:18 --> 00:18:19 you use this example of,

00:18:19 --> 00:18:20 you know,

00:18:20 --> 00:18:20 this older pastor who said,

00:18:20 --> 00:18:21 you know,

00:18:21 --> 00:18:21 well,

00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 I hear that and I think that you're saying that,

00:18:23 --> 00:18:23 you know,

00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 everything in the system,

00:18:25 --> 00:18:26 you know,

00:18:26 --> 00:18:28 is just completely worthless and,

00:18:28 --> 00:18:29 you know,

00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 100% of all the people in the Constitution itself are racist.

00:18:33 --> 00:18:33 You know,

00:18:33 --> 00:18:35 that is something that does not,

00:18:35 --> 00:18:36 I mean,

00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 it's not implied in the term itself.

00:18:38 --> 00:18:39 It may be something that,

00:18:39 --> 00:18:39 you know,

00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 this man's grasped onto from somebody else.

00:18:43 --> 00:18:44 And maybe some people do define it that way.

00:18:44 --> 00:18:45 But again,

00:18:45 --> 00:18:45 I mean,

00:18:45 --> 00:18:46 because there's no,

00:18:47 --> 00:18:47 you know,

00:18:47 --> 00:18:50 let's say dictionary definition of what these things mean.

00:18:50 --> 00:18:52 I think it just means that we have to have a conversation about

00:18:52 --> 00:18:53 what what I am saying,

00:18:53 --> 00:18:57 what I'm not saying is just as important that we're clear about

00:18:57 --> 00:18:58 what we're not saying.

00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 Lest people needlessly take offense,

00:19:01 --> 00:19:01 you know,

00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 at the things that we're talking about.

00:19:03 --> 00:19:04 OK, that that's good.

00:19:04 --> 00:19:05 Give me a second.

00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 I just want to pull up a quote from the legendary Chuck Smith.

00:19:09 --> 00:19:10 Just give me a quick second.

00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 It wouldn't be a Calvary Chapel podcast without a Chuck Smith quote.

00:19:15 --> 00:19:16 No, I know.

00:19:16 --> 00:19:17 I know.

00:19:17 --> 00:19:17 Right.

00:19:17 --> 00:19:17 There you go.

00:19:18 --> 00:19:18 Yeah.

00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 For those of you guys listening who are not Calvary Chapel

00:19:21 --> 00:19:22 people and we love you.

00:19:22 --> 00:19:24 We love our non Calvary Chapel audience.

00:19:25 --> 00:19:29 Chuck Smith was the founder of Calvary Chapel way back in the 60s.

00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 So anyway, yeah, Ben, you'll find this interesting.

00:19:33 --> 00:19:33 So,

00:19:33 --> 00:19:33 you know,

00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 CGN Calvary Global Network actually put out a statement on

00:19:38 --> 00:19:38 racism and

00:19:39 --> 00:19:39 And,

00:19:39 --> 00:19:39 you know,

00:19:39 --> 00:19:43 it's interesting because when you go through the statement,

00:19:43 --> 00:19:43 right,

00:19:43 --> 00:19:44 and you read it line by line,

00:19:44 --> 00:19:45 it's basically,

00:19:45 --> 00:19:47 it's simply an acknowledgement that one,

00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 racism has been a big part of our world's past,

00:19:51 --> 00:19:52 our country's past,

00:19:53 --> 00:19:53 which,

00:19:53 --> 00:19:53 you know,

00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 I think most people hopefully would know,

00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 given we fought a civil war about it.

00:19:58 --> 00:19:59 He would think so.

00:19:59 --> 00:19:59 Yeah.

00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 Hopefully that would be a no brainer.

00:20:01 --> 00:20:03 But so in that statement,

00:20:04 --> 00:20:08 we acknowledge that racism has sadly at times been a part of

00:20:08 --> 00:20:09 the big C church in

00:20:10 --> 00:20:10 the USA.

00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 And if you look through history,

00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 you'll see many Christians supported slavery and pastors even

00:20:16 --> 00:20:17 twisted scripture and

00:20:17 --> 00:20:21 preached from the pulpit that slavery was a defendable practice.

00:20:21 --> 00:20:21 And

00:20:21 --> 00:20:21 You know,

00:20:21 --> 00:20:24 just a quick example of that in a modern context,

00:20:25 --> 00:20:26 Bob Jones University,

00:20:26 --> 00:20:26 a Christian university,

00:20:27 --> 00:20:31 they did not lift their ban on interracial dating until the

00:20:31 --> 00:20:33 year 2000 or 2001,

00:20:33 --> 00:20:34 which is like pretty modern.

00:20:34 --> 00:20:39 So for, you know, for a while, we had this Christian college saying,

00:20:39 --> 00:20:43 still holding on to a segregationist idea in the modern age.

00:20:43 --> 00:20:46 And that's just one example of how racism has still been

00:20:46 --> 00:20:48 present in the church,

00:20:48 --> 00:20:48 sadly.

00:20:48 --> 00:20:49 And so,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:49 you know,

00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 we put out that statement and basically,

00:20:51 --> 00:20:52 you know,

00:20:52 --> 00:20:52 we,

00:20:52 --> 00:20:53 like I said,

00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 the statement was just acknowledging that these things happened.

00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 And then really it was just saying that we as a church want to

00:20:59 --> 00:21:00 acknowledge these things.

00:21:00 --> 00:21:03 And then we want to work together to combat these things

00:21:03 --> 00:21:04 wherever we see them.

00:21:04 --> 00:21:08 And that starts first off with self-reflection and just us

00:21:08 --> 00:21:09 looking at our hearts

00:21:09 --> 00:21:09 and seeing,

00:21:09 --> 00:21:10 you know,

00:21:10 --> 00:21:11 is there any of this sin in us?

00:21:12 --> 00:21:12 And from there,

00:21:13 --> 00:21:14 moving on to repentance,

00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 which is pretty standard Christian stuff,

00:21:16 --> 00:21:16 you know,

00:21:16 --> 00:21:18 self-reflection and repentance.

00:21:18 --> 00:21:19 But, you know, people got mad.

00:21:20 --> 00:21:24 I was really surprised the responses from people in the comment

00:21:24 --> 00:21:25 section on Instagram.

00:21:26 --> 00:21:27 We had one commenter saying,

00:21:27 --> 00:21:28 ah,

00:21:28 --> 00:21:28 you know,

00:21:28 --> 00:21:32 Chuck Smith would be rolling in his grave if he read this.

00:21:32 --> 00:21:32 And

00:21:33 --> 00:21:34 Yeah, I couldn't believe that.

00:21:34 --> 00:21:34 You know,

00:21:34 --> 00:21:38 they were so offended and triggered that we called racism a sin

00:21:38 --> 00:21:38 and said that it

00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 still existed in parts of the church and that we need to

00:21:40 --> 00:21:41 continue to fight it.

00:21:42 --> 00:21:43 And so they asserted that Chuck Smith,

00:21:43 --> 00:21:44 our founder,

00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 would oppose this statement.

00:21:46 --> 00:21:46 And so,

00:21:46 --> 00:21:47 you know,

00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 I wanted to test that theory myself and see,

00:21:50 --> 00:21:50 you know,

00:21:50 --> 00:21:51 what would Chuck say about this?

00:21:51 --> 00:21:56 So I went on Blue Letter Bible where all of Chuck's sermons are transcribed.

00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 And I just searched for the word prejudice to see what would come up.

00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 And this is the quote from Chuck.

00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 Here, I'll go ahead and I'll play the clip of Chuck himself.

00:22:04 --> 00:22:04 Here it is.

00:22:05 --> 00:22:10 There is no room for prejudice in the heart of the child of God.

00:22:10 --> 00:22:15 I am appalled that in some churches and in some church institutions,

00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 there still does exist prejudice,

00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 sometimes anti-Semitism,

00:22:21 --> 00:22:27 sometimes the almost fascist Anglo superiority attitude,

00:22:27 --> 00:22:28 the Aryan race.

00:22:28 --> 00:22:29 God help us,

00:22:29 --> 00:22:35 these cannot and do not reflect a true Christian or his experience.

00:22:36 --> 00:22:37 I mean, did you catch that?

00:22:37 --> 00:22:38 Like right there in that clip,

00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 Chuck himself says,

00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 and I'll do it in my Chuck voice.

00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 There is no room for prejudice in the heart of the child of God.

00:22:46 --> 00:22:51 Even the almost fascist Anglo superiori attitude, the Aryan race.

00:22:52 --> 00:22:52 I mean,

00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 right there,

00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 he's talking about white supremacy,

00:22:55 --> 00:22:56 which is just insane.

00:22:57 --> 00:22:57 And furthermore,

00:22:57 --> 00:23:04 he was addressing that racism still exists in some church institutions.

00:23:04 --> 00:23:05 He says it right there.

00:23:05 --> 00:23:08 I am appalled that in some churches and in some church institutions,

00:23:09 --> 00:23:11 prejudice and racism still does exist.

00:23:11 --> 00:23:15 So, I mean, that was exactly what our racism statement at CGN was saying.

00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 We were just calling that reality out.

00:23:18 --> 00:23:22 So I left that quote from Chuck as a reply to their comment,

00:23:22 --> 00:23:23 their angry comment,

00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 and they just ignored it and didn't respond to it.

00:23:26 --> 00:23:26 So...

00:23:27 --> 00:23:28 It's just one of those things to me where it's like,

00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 I don't understand why people think that once you start talking

00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 about racism and

00:23:34 --> 00:23:36 critiquing racism and calling out racism,

00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 all of a sudden you've become this cultural Marxist or this leftist.

00:23:40 --> 00:23:40 I mean,

00:23:41 --> 00:23:41 I just think,

00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 shouldn't it be a no brainer for us as Christians,

00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 even conservative Christians to just to acknowledge that these

00:23:47 --> 00:23:48 things are wrong and

00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 to commit to fighting against them?

00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 It should be, you know, I think it's,

00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 I think, again, it goes back to definitions, right?

00:23:55 --> 00:23:56 So,

00:23:56 --> 00:23:59 and kind of this is where I started my first article is that,

00:23:59 --> 00:24:00 you know,

00:24:00 --> 00:24:01 people will say,

00:24:01 --> 00:24:01 you know,

00:24:01 --> 00:24:02 well,

00:24:02 --> 00:24:03 I don't personally,

00:24:03 --> 00:24:04 I mean,

00:24:04 --> 00:24:04 they would agree,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:05 you know,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:05 yeah,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 like hating other races is wrong,

00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 being prejudiced against other races is wrong.

00:24:09 --> 00:24:10 Well, I don't have any of that.

00:24:10 --> 00:24:11 I don't hate,

00:24:11 --> 00:24:11 you know,

00:24:12 --> 00:24:13 blacks or Latinos or whatever,

00:24:14 --> 00:24:14 you know,

00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 so therefore this doesn't apply to me.

00:24:17 --> 00:24:21 Basically saying that racism exists only on an individual level.

00:24:22 --> 00:24:23 Yeah, that's where a lot of people want to take it.

00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 And that was what many people were saying in the comments on

00:24:26 --> 00:24:26 that article.

00:24:26 --> 00:24:27 It was basically,

00:24:28 --> 00:24:32 why are you calling us as a church to examine our hearts for racism?

00:24:32 --> 00:24:33 We're not racists.

00:24:33 --> 00:24:34 And people were saying,

00:24:35 --> 00:24:36 are you saying Costa Mesa,

00:24:36 --> 00:24:38 Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is racist?

00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 Like, do you have a bunch of racists in your congregation?

00:24:40 --> 00:24:41 Because we don't.

00:24:41 --> 00:24:43 If you do, that's your problem.

00:24:43 --> 00:24:44 But as for me,

00:24:44 --> 00:24:44 you know,

00:24:44 --> 00:24:48 I don't need to examine my heart because I know for a fact that

00:24:48 --> 00:24:48 I'm not racist.

00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 And that's kind of the attitude that many people were having.

00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 I just feel like maybe is it possible that many Christians

00:24:57 --> 00:24:58 violently are opposed to

00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 even considering that there might be racism in their heart not

00:25:02 --> 00:25:03 because they're

00:25:03 --> 00:25:07 they're reacting to racism themselves but maybe the perception

00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 that the opposing

00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 political side is taking advantage of people does that does

00:25:13 --> 00:25:14 that kind of make sense

00:25:14 --> 00:25:15 Yeah, it makes sense.

00:25:15 --> 00:25:20 I think that that's one possible reason why somebody might react,

00:25:20 --> 00:25:20 you know,

00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 rather aggressively to any talk of systemic racism.

00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 It's sort of a guilt by association thing.

00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 They sort of lump it in with,

00:25:28 --> 00:25:28 you know,

00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 what they see as sort of an attack on Christianity or,

00:25:33 --> 00:25:33 you know,

00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 promoting things that are obviously,

00:25:35 --> 00:25:36 you know,

00:25:36 --> 00:25:38 and blatantly sinful from a biblical perspective.

00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 But,

00:25:40 --> 00:25:40 I mean,

00:25:40 --> 00:25:41 the reality is that,

00:25:42 --> 00:25:42 you know,

00:25:42 --> 00:25:43 we need to not kind of,

00:25:44 --> 00:25:44 first of all,

00:25:44 --> 00:25:48 that's bad reasoning and it's not Christian of us,

00:25:48 --> 00:25:48 you know,

00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 to kind of lump things in like that together.

00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 You know, the question needs to be looked at on its own.

00:25:54 --> 00:25:54 Mm-hmm.

00:25:55 --> 00:25:55 Right.

00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 So is the racism, is there systemic racism?

00:25:58 --> 00:25:58 Now,

00:25:59 --> 00:25:59 again,

00:25:59 --> 00:26:00 kind of at the most basic level,

00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 systemic racism is racism in a system.

00:26:04 --> 00:26:04 You know,

00:26:04 --> 00:26:05 if we're to talk about the U.S.,

00:26:06 --> 00:26:06 I mean,

00:26:06 --> 00:26:06 nobody,

00:26:06 --> 00:26:07 like you said,

00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 nobody would argue with the fact that there was a very racist

00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 system for a very

00:26:12 --> 00:26:12 long time,

00:26:12 --> 00:26:12 right,

00:26:13 --> 00:26:13 with slavery.

00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 And then even after the abolition of slavery,

00:26:17 --> 00:26:17 you know,

00:26:17 --> 00:26:18 sort of the Jim Crow era,

00:26:19 --> 00:26:19 where,

00:26:19 --> 00:26:19 you know,

00:26:20 --> 00:26:20 maybe they weren't

00:26:21 --> 00:26:21 held as slaves,

00:26:21 --> 00:26:22 they were now counted as,

00:26:23 --> 00:26:23 you know,

00:26:23 --> 00:26:24 not three-fifths of a person,

00:26:24 --> 00:26:24 but,

00:26:25 --> 00:26:25 you know,

00:26:25 --> 00:26:26 full people.

00:26:26 --> 00:26:26 And yet,

00:26:26 --> 00:26:27 nevertheless,

00:26:27 --> 00:26:31 they were not afforded the same rights and privileges that

00:26:31 --> 00:26:32 white people had in this country.

00:26:33 --> 00:26:34 The question is,

00:26:34 --> 00:26:34 you know,

00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 can a country,

00:26:38 --> 00:26:38 and again,

00:26:38 --> 00:26:39 I'm applying specifically to the U.S.

00:26:39 --> 00:26:43 right now, but, you know, can a country live, you know,

00:26:45 --> 00:26:47 300 years creating a culture,

00:26:48 --> 00:26:49 creating a system,

00:26:49 --> 00:26:49 if you will,

00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 that that oppresses and denigrates a particular race of people.

00:26:54 --> 00:26:55 And then expect that,

00:26:55 --> 00:26:55 you know,

00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 within the short span of,

00:26:57 --> 00:26:57 you know,

00:26:58 --> 00:26:58 let's say 1968.

00:26:58 --> 00:26:58 Right.

00:26:58 --> 00:27:02 At least officially kind of civil rights were all put in place.

00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 But again, didn't always happen that quickly.

00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 And in some ways still hasn't.

00:27:06 --> 00:27:06 But nevertheless,

00:27:06 --> 00:27:07 let's say that,

00:27:07 --> 00:27:08 you know,

00:27:08 --> 00:27:08 1968,

00:27:08 --> 00:27:09 you know,

00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 within the span of 50 years that the previous 300 years are

00:27:12 --> 00:27:13 just wiped out and

00:27:13 --> 00:27:14 don't have any effect.

00:27:14 --> 00:27:17 I mean, that just seems like unrealistic.

00:27:17 --> 00:27:17 Right.

00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 Sort of this idea that everything was solved after the civil

00:27:20 --> 00:27:20 rights movement.

00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 And now we don't need to have a discussion about it anymore.

00:27:23 --> 00:27:25 That's the attitude I've seen from many people,

00:27:25 --> 00:27:28 especially on Facebook and comment sections and discussions

00:27:28 --> 00:27:29 about this topic.

00:27:29 --> 00:27:29 So.

00:27:30 --> 00:27:31 Here's a question I think I'd want to pivot to.

00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 I think a lot of times really when we're talking about politics

00:27:35 --> 00:27:35 and people's

00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 political opinions and ideologies,

00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 regardless of theology,

00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 a lot of times what can motivate our political ideology is less

00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 theology and more

00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 things like safety and security and also like what's going to

00:27:50 --> 00:27:51 happen with my tax dollars,

00:27:52 --> 00:27:52 right?

00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 That can be a motivation for how we think politically.

00:27:56 --> 00:27:56 Yeah.

00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 I think sometimes that can play into it when we're dealing with

00:27:59 --> 00:28:00 things like taxes

00:28:00 --> 00:28:02 and how our tax dollars are spent.

00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 Sometimes our heart can say,

00:28:05 --> 00:28:05 you know,

00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 why should I have my tax dollars go to help somebody else who

00:28:09 --> 00:28:10 might be disadvantaged?

00:28:10 --> 00:28:10 You know,

00:28:10 --> 00:28:13 how can I trust that the government's going to do the right thing?

00:28:13 --> 00:28:15 How can I trust that people aren't just going to take advantage

00:28:15 --> 00:28:16 of the system?

00:28:16 --> 00:28:18 I know that's kind of a complex political question.

00:28:18 --> 00:28:19 There's a lot of layers there.

00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 But I'm just asking,

00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 how can we think about these things theologically and not

00:28:24 --> 00:28:25 strictly politically?

00:28:25 --> 00:28:27 That is a good question to ask.

00:28:27 --> 00:28:28 And at the end of the day,

00:28:28 --> 00:28:30 we have to think about it theologically,

00:28:31 --> 00:28:32 not even politically,

00:28:32 --> 00:28:32 I would say,

00:28:32 --> 00:28:33 but pragmatically,

00:28:34 --> 00:28:34 because,

00:28:34 --> 00:28:35 you know,

00:28:35 --> 00:28:38 if what decides the stands that we take,

00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 the things that we care about is,

00:28:41 --> 00:28:42 you know,

00:28:42 --> 00:28:42 at the end of the day,

00:28:42 --> 00:28:43 well,

00:28:43 --> 00:28:44 how much money do I get to keep?

00:28:45 --> 00:28:46 That's not a Christian motivation.

00:28:46 --> 00:28:47 Hmm.

00:28:47 --> 00:28:47 Now,

00:28:47 --> 00:28:48 I'm not saying that,

00:28:48 --> 00:28:48 you know,

00:28:48 --> 00:28:51 we need to necessarily raise tax rates or anything like that,

00:28:51 --> 00:28:55 but that should not be what determines what we care about and

00:28:55 --> 00:28:56 what we speak about

00:28:56 --> 00:28:57 and what we stand for.

00:28:57 --> 00:28:58 So theologically,

00:28:58 --> 00:28:59 I mean,

00:28:59 --> 00:29:00 again,

00:29:00 --> 00:29:00 you know,

00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 if you look in the Bible,

00:29:02 --> 00:29:04 just kind of at the topic of justice,

00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 the Bible has a lot to say about justice,

00:29:06 --> 00:29:07 has a lot to say about,

00:29:07 --> 00:29:07 you know,

00:29:07 --> 00:29:11 oppressing those who cannot defend themselves properly.

00:29:11 --> 00:29:12 you know,

00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 from dishonest practices,

00:29:14 --> 00:29:15 things that,

00:29:15 --> 00:29:16 you know,

00:29:16 --> 00:29:18 would impinge on the rights of other people.

00:29:19 --> 00:29:19 You know,

00:29:19 --> 00:29:23 these are things that the Bible speaks clearly about that God,

00:29:23 --> 00:29:24 through the prophets in the Old Testament,

00:29:25 --> 00:29:25 you know,

00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 convicted and even judged Israel for.

00:29:28 --> 00:29:30 So for us to, you know, just kind of

00:29:31 --> 00:29:31 say,

00:29:31 --> 00:29:31 well,

00:29:32 --> 00:29:33 I don't want to think about any of that because,

00:29:33 --> 00:29:34 you know,

00:29:34 --> 00:29:34 well,

00:29:35 --> 00:29:36 my tax rate might go up.

00:29:37 --> 00:29:38 I would first say,

00:29:38 --> 00:29:38 you know,

00:29:38 --> 00:29:41 probably we should pray about our priorities if that's our first concern.

00:29:42 --> 00:29:42 Right.

00:29:42 --> 00:29:42 You know,

00:29:43 --> 00:29:43 secondly,

00:29:43 --> 00:29:43 I mean,

00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 I don't think that necessarily,

00:29:46 --> 00:29:46 I mean,

00:29:46 --> 00:29:47 I wouldn't want to say that,

00:29:47 --> 00:29:48 you know,

00:29:48 --> 00:29:52 somebody who's concerned about justice for minorities,

00:29:52 --> 00:29:52 for,

00:29:53 --> 00:29:53 you know,

00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 African-Americans necessarily has to be in favor of reparations.

00:29:57 --> 00:29:59 You know, that's one possible step.

00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 Yeah, that's a debate with a lot of nuance to it.

00:30:02 --> 00:30:06 We're not going to solve that issue here on this podcast.

00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 Most likely not.

00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 I would I would I guess I would say,

00:30:10 --> 00:30:10 you know,

00:30:11 --> 00:30:13 that we should we should be careful to practice,

00:30:13 --> 00:30:14 you know,

00:30:14 --> 00:30:15 not a double standard.

00:30:16 --> 00:30:19 And and the example that I'm thinking of immediately is the

00:30:19 --> 00:30:20 example of Germany,

00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 who are still paying reparations to the survivors of the Holocaust.

00:30:25 --> 00:30:25 Mm hmm.

00:30:25 --> 00:30:26 Now,

00:30:26 --> 00:30:27 in my experience,

00:30:27 --> 00:30:28 kind of knowing,

00:30:28 --> 00:30:28 you know,

00:30:28 --> 00:30:29 many conservative Christians,

00:30:29 --> 00:30:30 the way that they,

00:30:31 --> 00:30:31 you know,

00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 kind of feel about Israel and the cause of the Jews,

00:30:36 --> 00:30:36 you know,

00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 are either very much in favor of that or at least are not opposed to it,

00:30:41 --> 00:30:41 you know.

00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 But I guess the question is,

00:30:43 --> 00:30:43 well,

00:30:44 --> 00:30:44 you know,

00:30:44 --> 00:30:47 if that is the case and if you see that as even something being just,

00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 let's make sure that we don't practice double standard just

00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 because it's our money.

00:30:52 --> 00:30:53 Yeah, that's a really good point.

00:30:53 --> 00:30:57 And I mean, Jesus says where your treasure is, your heart will be also.

00:30:57 --> 00:30:58 And I think quite often,

00:30:58 --> 00:30:59 like I said,

00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 the factors of safety and security and finances can be one of

00:31:03 --> 00:31:04 the main things that

00:31:04 --> 00:31:07 motivate us and how we think politically and much more than our

00:31:07 --> 00:31:08 theology motivates

00:31:08 --> 00:31:09 how we think politically.

00:31:10 --> 00:31:10 And so...

00:31:11 --> 00:31:12 We're not going to solve this issue,

00:31:12 --> 00:31:15 but I did think it was worth bringing up because it is a hot

00:31:15 --> 00:31:16 topic that comes up in

00:31:16 --> 00:31:17 this debate.

00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 We've got these ideas about what is due,

00:31:19 --> 00:31:19 you know,

00:31:19 --> 00:31:22 what is due to people and what are the implications of what

00:31:22 --> 00:31:24 happens once we start

00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 to address the sin of racism.

00:31:26 --> 00:31:30 I think one place my mind goes is that if we allow these hot

00:31:30 --> 00:31:31 button issues to

00:31:31 --> 00:31:32 define how we see people.

00:31:32 --> 00:31:33 So like,

00:31:33 --> 00:31:33 for instance,

00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 if you're listening to this as a white conservative and when

00:31:37 --> 00:31:38 the topic of racism

00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 and black people comes up in your mind,

00:31:40 --> 00:31:44 if your mind just automatically goes to the issue of reparations,

00:31:44 --> 00:31:44 you know,

00:31:44 --> 00:31:49 the idea that white people are supposed to pay back black

00:31:49 --> 00:31:50 people for the sin of

00:31:50 --> 00:31:51 racism financially.

00:31:51 --> 00:31:51 Yeah.

00:31:52 --> 00:31:53 If your brain just starts thinking,

00:31:53 --> 00:31:54 you know,

00:31:54 --> 00:31:54 oh,

00:31:54 --> 00:31:56 these people just want my money because of something I had

00:31:56 --> 00:31:57 nothing to do with.

00:31:57 --> 00:32:00 That was people hundreds of years ago.

00:32:00 --> 00:32:00 You know,

00:32:00 --> 00:32:03 regardless of whether or not you think that's right or wrong,

00:32:04 --> 00:32:05 for you as a Christian,

00:32:05 --> 00:32:07 it's really going to hurt your ability as a Christian to

00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 minister to somebody who

00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 has experienced racism in their life.

00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 If the first way that you think of them is you define them by

00:32:15 --> 00:32:16 this issue that

00:32:16 --> 00:32:17 you're maybe opposed to.

00:32:18 --> 00:32:22 I'm talking about somebody who had tangibly something in their life,

00:32:22 --> 00:32:24 someone in their community come against them and treat them in

00:32:25 --> 00:32:25 a racist way.

00:32:26 --> 00:32:28 That person is going to be on your doorstep in front of you.

00:32:28 --> 00:32:31 Maybe God wants you to minister to them and comfort them and help them.

00:32:31 --> 00:32:34 But because your mind is so tangled up in these political issues,

00:32:34 --> 00:32:38 it's going to cause your heart to be bitter and hard towards them.

00:32:38 --> 00:32:40 And you're not going to be able to help them.

00:32:40 --> 00:32:40 So...

00:32:41 --> 00:32:45 I just think it's very hard for us to separate issues from people.

00:32:46 --> 00:32:47 And I think as Christians,

00:32:47 --> 00:32:51 we need to be able to set issues aside and just look at the

00:32:51 --> 00:32:52 people as individuals

00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 right in front of us and figure out how does God want me to

00:32:55 --> 00:32:56 minister to this person?

00:32:57 --> 00:33:00 And does that mean maybe I need another layer of understanding

00:33:00 --> 00:33:01 about this person's

00:33:01 --> 00:33:05 particular situation that maybe I don't have based on my own

00:33:05 --> 00:33:06 life experience?

00:33:06 --> 00:33:07 Does that does that make sense?

00:33:08 --> 00:33:09 Yeah, definitely.

00:33:09 --> 00:33:09 As you know,

00:33:10 --> 00:33:13 and obviously kind of are going to this question of priorities.

00:33:13 --> 00:33:14 Right.

00:33:14 --> 00:33:14 You know,

00:33:14 --> 00:33:15 if we're kind of obsessed about,

00:33:15 --> 00:33:16 well,

00:33:16 --> 00:33:17 this is perfect to pay a higher tax rate.

00:33:18 --> 00:33:18 I mean,

00:33:18 --> 00:33:19 you know,

00:33:19 --> 00:33:21 what is what is your heart actually caring about at that moment?

00:33:21 --> 00:33:22 You know,

00:33:22 --> 00:33:24 Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God right with

00:33:25 --> 00:33:25 all of our heart,

00:33:25 --> 00:33:25 mind,

00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 soul and strength and to love our neighbor.

00:33:27 --> 00:33:28 as herself,

00:33:28 --> 00:33:28 you know,

00:33:28 --> 00:33:30 whatever color he or she may be,

00:33:31 --> 00:33:31 you know,

00:33:31 --> 00:33:32 so how are you loving this person?

00:33:32 --> 00:33:33 I mean,

00:33:34 --> 00:33:34 I would say you said,

00:33:34 --> 00:33:35 you know,

00:33:35 --> 00:33:37 if kind of there's this black person,

00:33:37 --> 00:33:38 are they immediately thinking,

00:33:38 --> 00:33:38 you know,

00:33:38 --> 00:33:38 oh,

00:33:39 --> 00:33:39 well,

00:33:39 --> 00:33:39 you know,

00:33:39 --> 00:33:40 kind of reparations?

00:33:40 --> 00:33:41 My guess is probably not,

00:33:42 --> 00:33:42 you know,

00:33:42 --> 00:33:43 I would want to,

00:33:43 --> 00:33:44 you know,

00:33:44 --> 00:33:44 assume the best,

00:33:45 --> 00:33:45 let's say,

00:33:45 --> 00:33:45 of people.

00:33:46 --> 00:33:47 But I think it's more about,

00:33:47 --> 00:33:47 you know,

00:33:47 --> 00:33:49 when we start talking about,

00:33:49 --> 00:33:49 you know,

00:33:49 --> 00:33:50 systemic racism,

00:33:50 --> 00:33:51 you know,

00:33:51 --> 00:33:52 whatever color you are.

00:33:52 --> 00:33:55 I mean, we're two white guys here talking about systemic racism.

00:33:55 --> 00:33:57 It's really that conversation,

00:33:57 --> 00:33:57 I think,

00:33:57 --> 00:33:59 that maybe spooks people a little bit.

00:34:00 --> 00:34:00 And again,

00:34:00 --> 00:34:01 like I said,

00:34:01 --> 00:34:02 because of this whole,

00:34:02 --> 00:34:02 you know,

00:34:03 --> 00:34:04 unfortunately unhealthy,

00:34:04 --> 00:34:04 you know,

00:34:05 --> 00:34:06 getting saturated,

00:34:06 --> 00:34:07 you know,

00:34:07 --> 00:34:07 day in,

00:34:07 --> 00:34:08 day out by punditry,

00:34:09 --> 00:34:09 you know,

00:34:09 --> 00:34:11 rather than just kind of biblical thinking,

00:34:12 --> 00:34:12 you know,

00:34:12 --> 00:34:13 Yeah,

00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 pundits can shape our theology more than pastors these days,

00:34:16 --> 00:34:17 if that's who we're listening to.

00:34:17 --> 00:34:18 Right, right.

00:34:18 --> 00:34:18 Yeah.

00:34:19 --> 00:34:19 So,

00:34:19 --> 00:34:20 I mean,

00:34:20 --> 00:34:20 again,

00:34:20 --> 00:34:23 but that's why I'm careful to say that,

00:34:23 --> 00:34:23 you know,

00:34:25 --> 00:34:26 saying yes,

00:34:26 --> 00:34:28 there is a systemic racism problem.

00:34:28 --> 00:34:28 Right.

00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 Yes, as Christians, we need to care about it because God cares about it.

00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 Because at the end of the day,

00:34:34 --> 00:34:35 you know,

00:34:35 --> 00:34:36 my black brother,

00:34:36 --> 00:34:37 my Latino sister,

00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 these are all people were all created in the image of God,

00:34:41 --> 00:34:41 first of all.

00:34:42 --> 00:34:43 And second of all,

00:34:43 --> 00:34:43 you know,

00:34:43 --> 00:34:44 I mean,

00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 if we're talking within the realm of the church,

00:34:46 --> 00:34:46 you know,

00:34:47 --> 00:34:47 the people of God,

00:34:47 --> 00:34:48 it says in Revelation,

00:34:48 --> 00:34:49 are from every tribe,

00:34:49 --> 00:34:50 tongue and nation.

00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 You know, so we're one in Christ.

00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 We're spending eternity with these people together.

00:34:56 --> 00:35:01 And that needs to be more of our identity than what political

00:35:01 --> 00:35:03 party or what tax

00:35:03 --> 00:35:04 scheme we lean towards.

00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 Because these are things that are, again, eternal.

00:35:09 --> 00:35:09 Oh, that's so good.

00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 The place I'd want to go from here is I'd love to ask you about

00:35:13 --> 00:35:14 the idea of

00:35:15 --> 00:35:16 national sin and collective sin,

00:35:16 --> 00:35:19 because that's something you bring up in your article.

00:35:19 --> 00:35:20 And it's honestly,

00:35:20 --> 00:35:24 it's a concept that I didn't grow up hearing much about.

00:35:24 --> 00:35:25 And I just want to ask you,

00:35:25 --> 00:35:32 is that an idea that is a modern idea or is there a biblical

00:35:32 --> 00:35:33 precedent for national

00:35:33 --> 00:35:36 sin and people repenting at a national level?

00:35:36 --> 00:35:37 Like just as an example,

00:35:37 --> 00:35:38 you know,

00:35:38 --> 00:35:39 to put it in biblical terms,

00:35:40 --> 00:35:42 let's take it out like the modern political spectrum.

00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 let's say there's a prophet in Israel and child sacrifice is

00:35:46 --> 00:35:47 going on at the time.

00:35:48 --> 00:35:48 You know,

00:35:48 --> 00:35:51 is it right for one of the prophets,

00:35:51 --> 00:35:51 you know,

00:35:51 --> 00:35:54 who himself has never sacrificed a child?

00:35:54 --> 00:35:55 He's never done that.

00:35:55 --> 00:35:56 He's always been repulsed by it.

00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 But is it right for him to repent on behalf of his nation and

00:36:01 --> 00:36:01 pray and say,

00:36:02 --> 00:36:02 God,

00:36:02 --> 00:36:03 on behalf of my nation,

00:36:03 --> 00:36:04 I'm sorry for this.

00:36:05 --> 00:36:05 And it's horrible.

00:36:05 --> 00:36:08 And I want to repent of it.

00:36:08 --> 00:36:09 Is that, is that right?

00:36:10 --> 00:36:11 If it's not right,

00:36:11 --> 00:36:14 then we probably have a problem because there's examples of

00:36:14 --> 00:36:15 that in the Bible.

00:36:16 --> 00:36:16 You know,

00:36:16 --> 00:36:16 I mean,

00:36:16 --> 00:36:17 I mean,

00:36:17 --> 00:36:22 very often the prophets addressed the entire nation of Israel

00:36:22 --> 00:36:22 and not only Israel,

00:36:23 --> 00:36:24 other nations as a whole,

00:36:25 --> 00:36:25 you know,

00:36:25 --> 00:36:27 convicting them for this or that injustice.

00:36:28 --> 00:36:31 And so that's, I mean, there's a very biblical precedent.

00:36:31 --> 00:36:35 You see what is really a great example with the prophet Daniel.

00:36:35 --> 00:36:36 You know,

00:36:36 --> 00:36:36 he was,

00:36:36 --> 00:36:37 as a young man,

00:36:37 --> 00:36:38 taken to Babylon,

00:36:39 --> 00:36:39 you know,

00:36:39 --> 00:36:41 part of the Babylonian captivity,

00:36:41 --> 00:36:45 which was a result of the sin of kind of,

00:36:45 --> 00:36:45 you know,

00:36:46 --> 00:36:47 his fathers and forefathers.

00:36:47 --> 00:36:48 And God eventually said,

00:36:48 --> 00:36:49 you know,

00:36:49 --> 00:36:49 enough is enough,

00:36:50 --> 00:36:52 and they're going to captivity in Babylon.

00:36:52 --> 00:36:55 And then in Daniel chapter 9, you see Daniel praying,

00:36:56 --> 00:37:00 And he is repenting and he's confessing and he's asking mercy

00:37:00 --> 00:37:01 and forgiveness for

00:37:01 --> 00:37:02 the sins of the nation.

00:37:02 --> 00:37:03 And you could really argue that,

00:37:04 --> 00:37:04 I mean,

00:37:04 --> 00:37:06 Daniel didn't do any of that stuff.

00:37:06 --> 00:37:07 Daniel was like a kid,

00:37:07 --> 00:37:07 you know,

00:37:08 --> 00:37:09 at the time that they were taken to Babylon.

00:37:10 --> 00:37:13 You know, he's not he's not individually, again, guilty of anything.

00:37:14 --> 00:37:15 And yet at the same time,

00:37:15 --> 00:37:19 we see him actually interceding on behalf of the whole nation.

00:37:19 --> 00:37:19 So,

00:37:19 --> 00:37:20 yeah,

00:37:20 --> 00:37:20 I mean,

00:37:21 --> 00:37:22 if we're following the biblical example,

00:37:23 --> 00:37:24 that's a very biblical thing.

00:37:24 --> 00:37:25 In fact,

00:37:25 --> 00:37:29 I would say that this idea that sin is only individual is a

00:37:29 --> 00:37:30 more modern idea.

00:37:30 --> 00:37:31 It's really born out of the Enlightenment.

00:37:32 --> 00:37:35 That, you know, kind of I am I am an individual island unto myself.

00:37:36 --> 00:37:36 You know,

00:37:36 --> 00:37:38 I don't exist as part of,

00:37:38 --> 00:37:38 you know,

00:37:38 --> 00:37:40 a people or a collective whole,

00:37:40 --> 00:37:41 which in many ways,

00:37:41 --> 00:37:42 the Western,

00:37:42 --> 00:37:43 you know,

00:37:43 --> 00:37:46 church post enlightenment has kind of swallowed that narrative hook,

00:37:46 --> 00:37:47 line and sinker.

00:37:47 --> 00:37:49 That's an American idea as well.

00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 American, not only, you know, also British.

00:37:52 --> 00:37:54 I mean, a lot of the Enlightenment thinkers were British.

00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 Obviously, America being originally a colony, British colony.

00:37:58 --> 00:38:02 But, you know, yeah, it really is the more modern idea.

00:38:02 --> 00:38:04 And like I mentioned in the article,

00:38:04 --> 00:38:05 that was kind of,

00:38:05 --> 00:38:06 in some ways,

00:38:06 --> 00:38:07 Pelagius was ahead of his time,

00:38:07 --> 00:38:07 you know.

00:38:08 --> 00:38:12 Thinking only in individual terms that sin is only what I do.

00:38:13 --> 00:38:14 It's not kind of part of a system.

00:38:14 --> 00:38:17 It's not what is around me and what affects me.

00:38:17 --> 00:38:18 And what,

00:38:18 --> 00:38:18 you know,

00:38:19 --> 00:38:19 as the Bible says,

00:38:20 --> 00:38:21 what actually is sort of,

00:38:21 --> 00:38:22 you know,

00:38:22 --> 00:38:23 the Bible uses this term of the world,

00:38:23 --> 00:38:24 right,

00:38:24 --> 00:38:24 quite a bit.

00:38:25 --> 00:38:27 You know, in different places, it uses different contexts.

00:38:27 --> 00:38:28 But when it's in a negative context,

00:38:28 --> 00:38:30 it's talking about the system,

00:38:30 --> 00:38:31 right?

00:38:31 --> 00:38:32 The system that is against God,

00:38:32 --> 00:38:33 that is,

00:38:33 --> 00:38:33 you know,

00:38:33 --> 00:38:35 not in submission to God.

00:38:35 --> 00:38:38 And the Bible basically talks about,

00:38:38 --> 00:38:38 quote unquote,

00:38:39 --> 00:38:40 the world or the system,

00:38:40 --> 00:38:40 if you will,

00:38:40 --> 00:38:41 as a very real thing,

00:38:42 --> 00:38:42 you know,

00:38:42 --> 00:38:43 that in fact,

00:38:43 --> 00:38:44 as Christians,

00:38:44 --> 00:38:45 we need to be aware of.

00:38:46 --> 00:38:50 And we need to, you know, not just kind of go along with the flow there.

00:38:50 --> 00:38:51 That's really good.

00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 I think one thing that comes to my mind is how many times in

00:38:54 --> 00:38:55 the Old Testament you read,

00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 and Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord.

00:38:59 --> 00:39:02 And I'm sure that there could be somebody in Israel who would

00:39:02 --> 00:39:03 read that verse and say,

00:39:03 --> 00:39:03 well,

00:39:04 --> 00:39:05 I didn't do that evil thing.

00:39:05 --> 00:39:06 That wasn't me.

00:39:07 --> 00:39:09 But it was enough people to the point where God was looking at

00:39:09 --> 00:39:10 this nation and

00:39:10 --> 00:39:12 judging a nation for its sin.

00:39:12 --> 00:39:13 Collectively.

00:39:13 --> 00:39:16 And it's interesting to me that when it comes to national sin,

00:39:16 --> 00:39:18 it seems like Christians,

00:39:18 --> 00:39:19 as Christians,

00:39:19 --> 00:39:22 quite often we can agree on some of those sins.

00:39:22 --> 00:39:24 And it's totally not a problem.

00:39:24 --> 00:39:24 Like,

00:39:24 --> 00:39:24 for instance,

00:39:24 --> 00:39:28 if we were going to have a national day of prayer and somebody,

00:39:28 --> 00:39:28 you know,

00:39:28 --> 00:39:31 let's just stick with kind of that traditional conservative

00:39:31 --> 00:39:32 Christian environment

00:39:32 --> 00:39:33 that we've both come from.

00:39:34 --> 00:39:36 If somebody got up in that kind of church,

00:39:36 --> 00:39:36 you know,

00:39:36 --> 00:39:38 not a progressive church,

00:39:38 --> 00:39:40 but a traditional conservative Christian church,

00:39:40 --> 00:39:41 got up on the mic and said,

00:39:42 --> 00:39:42 Lord,

00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 we cry out because of our nation's great sin of abortion and

00:39:46 --> 00:39:48 how many lives it's devastated.

00:39:48 --> 00:39:53 And we repent and we ask for forgiveness on behalf of our nation.

00:39:53 --> 00:39:58 Please lead us on how we can oppose this great evil and fight

00:39:58 --> 00:39:59 against it in our own

00:39:59 --> 00:40:00 lives and hearts.

00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 I feel like most people would not bat an eye at that.

00:40:05 --> 00:40:07 I feel like most Christians would be nodding their head.

00:40:07 --> 00:40:07 I mean,

00:40:07 --> 00:40:09 I'd be nodding my head with them because I feel the same way

00:40:09 --> 00:40:10 about abortion.

00:40:10 --> 00:40:10 But,

00:40:11 --> 00:40:11 you know,

00:40:11 --> 00:40:12 on the flip side,

00:40:12 --> 00:40:15 if somebody got up and said the same thing about racism,

00:40:15 --> 00:40:16 like,

00:40:16 --> 00:40:16 Lord,

00:40:16 --> 00:40:19 we repent for our nation's great sin of racism and the ways

00:40:19 --> 00:40:20 it's still happening in

00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 our world and the lives it's destroyed and the lives that it's

00:40:24 --> 00:40:24 still destroying.

00:40:25 --> 00:40:28 And we repent of this sin and we ask you to help us and guide

00:40:28 --> 00:40:29 us and lead us on how

00:40:29 --> 00:40:30 to do better,

00:40:30 --> 00:40:30 Lord.

00:40:31 --> 00:40:31 I mean,

00:40:31 --> 00:40:35 I have friends who are pastors who've done that and people are

00:40:35 --> 00:40:36 actually leaving

00:40:36 --> 00:40:37 their churches because in their mind,

00:40:38 --> 00:40:41 saying that racism is something that's still a problem and

00:40:41 --> 00:40:41 saying that it's

00:40:41 --> 00:40:45 something that we might have some complicitness in,

00:40:45 --> 00:40:46 to many people it's like,

00:40:46 --> 00:40:46 oh,

00:40:46 --> 00:40:49 you're just buying into the liberal agenda and now you're this

00:40:49 --> 00:40:50 social justice

00:40:50 --> 00:40:53 warrior and you've neglected to focus on the gospel.

00:40:54 --> 00:40:55 I mean, just it blows my mind.

00:40:55 --> 00:40:57 Why do you think that is?

00:40:57 --> 00:41:02 And what is the solution as the church to get beyond that mentality?

00:41:02 --> 00:41:02 Yeah,

00:41:02 --> 00:41:02 I mean,

00:41:02 --> 00:41:06 it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier,

00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 which is sort of a double standard,

00:41:08 --> 00:41:08 right?

00:41:08 --> 00:41:09 Now,

00:41:09 --> 00:41:09 now,

00:41:09 --> 00:41:10 to be fair,

00:41:10 --> 00:41:10 I mean,

00:41:10 --> 00:41:12 I think that with the case of abortion,

00:41:12 --> 00:41:13 it's like people see,

00:41:14 --> 00:41:14 well,

00:41:14 --> 00:41:15 abortions are still happening,

00:41:15 --> 00:41:15 you know,

00:41:15 --> 00:41:17 and unfortunately,

00:41:17 --> 00:41:17 tragically,

00:41:17 --> 00:41:18 they're happening,

00:41:18 --> 00:41:19 happening at,

00:41:19 --> 00:41:19 you know,

00:41:19 --> 00:41:20 a pretty high rate.

00:41:20 --> 00:41:21 Right.

00:41:21 --> 00:41:23 And it's not just the spread of abortion, but it's the right.

00:41:24 --> 00:41:25 And so people,

00:41:25 --> 00:41:25 you know,

00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 are maybe maybe comfortable with,

00:41:27 --> 00:41:28 you know,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:28 saying,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:28 well,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:28 yes,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:29 this is a problem.

00:41:29 --> 00:41:32 And yes, Lord, you know, kind of forgive our nation for this.

00:41:32 --> 00:41:34 I think in some cases,

00:41:34 --> 00:41:37 at least if you're saying this with systemic racism,

00:41:37 --> 00:41:41 it really may just be a question of people just don't see it or

00:41:41 --> 00:41:42 they don't want to

00:41:42 --> 00:41:42 see it.

00:41:42 --> 00:41:42 You know,

00:41:43 --> 00:41:43 they think that,

00:41:43 --> 00:41:44 again,

00:41:44 --> 00:41:44 like you mentioned,

00:41:44 --> 00:41:45 that it's,

00:41:45 --> 00:41:45 you know,

00:41:45 --> 00:41:48 sort of part of some narrative and then it's kind of,

00:41:48 --> 00:41:48 you know,

00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 sort of all of these big scary terms of,

00:41:52 --> 00:41:52 you know,

00:41:53 --> 00:41:54 cultural Marxism and,

00:41:54 --> 00:41:54 you know,

00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 social justice warriors and,

00:41:56 --> 00:41:57 well,

00:41:57 --> 00:41:58 you're just virtue signaling,

00:41:58 --> 00:41:59 which I have to say,

00:41:59 --> 00:42:00 I particularly hate that term.

00:42:01 --> 00:42:01 Yes.

00:42:01 --> 00:42:02 Of virtue signaling,

00:42:02 --> 00:42:05 because what it implies is it implies that you see the motive

00:42:05 --> 00:42:07 of someone's heart.

00:42:07 --> 00:42:09 It implies that they're making a stand for something.

00:42:10 --> 00:42:11 And basically by saying,

00:42:11 --> 00:42:11 oh,

00:42:11 --> 00:42:12 well,

00:42:12 --> 00:42:13 you're just virtue signaling,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:13 you're saying,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:13 well,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:14 you're not sincere about it.

00:42:15 --> 00:42:15 Yeah.

00:42:15 --> 00:42:17 But without any grounds to make that accusation,

00:42:17 --> 00:42:20 the Bible calls that slander and slander is a sin.

00:42:20 --> 00:42:21 So,

00:42:21 --> 00:42:21 you know,

00:42:21 --> 00:42:23 think twice next time before you say somebody is virtue signaling.

00:42:24 --> 00:42:29 But, you know, I mean, people get offended maybe for two reasons.

00:42:29 --> 00:42:29 Again,

00:42:29 --> 00:42:30 like I said,

00:42:30 --> 00:42:33 maybe they just kind of do this guilt by association and they figure,

00:42:33 --> 00:42:33 well,

00:42:33 --> 00:42:35 if you're talking about racism,

00:42:35 --> 00:42:36 it must mean that you're sort of

00:42:37 --> 00:42:41 buying the entire package of everything that they've heard

00:42:41 --> 00:42:42 pundits talk day in and

00:42:42 --> 00:42:46 day out about is going to destroy American society,

00:42:46 --> 00:42:50 rather than being able to examine an issue individually,

00:42:50 --> 00:42:51 to examine its merits,

00:42:52 --> 00:42:56 The other reason potentially why people get really upset about

00:42:56 --> 00:42:57 that is because

00:42:57 --> 00:43:02 they're afraid that maybe they they're actually maybe there

00:43:02 --> 00:43:03 actually is something

00:43:03 --> 00:43:03 in their heart.

00:43:03 --> 00:43:07 And either there's too much shame or maybe too much guilt that

00:43:07 --> 00:43:08 they just don't want

00:43:08 --> 00:43:09 to deal with that.

00:43:09 --> 00:43:10 And so instead, they just don't listen to it.

00:43:10 --> 00:43:11 Yeah,

00:43:11 --> 00:43:15 it's fascinating to me to see the reactions that people have to

00:43:15 --> 00:43:16 talking about racism.

00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 And part of me thinks that to many people who consider

00:43:19 --> 00:43:20 themselves patriotic or

00:43:20 --> 00:43:22 maybe even nationalistic in a way,

00:43:23 --> 00:43:23 in their mind,

00:43:23 --> 00:43:27 they would think they would have this idea of America,

00:43:27 --> 00:43:28 you know,

00:43:28 --> 00:43:30 America beat racism,

00:43:30 --> 00:43:30 right?

00:43:30 --> 00:43:32 Like we overcame it.

00:43:32 --> 00:43:33 We had it.

00:43:33 --> 00:43:34 It was a part of life.

00:43:34 --> 00:43:38 But then we fought a war and good men died and fought and bled

00:43:38 --> 00:43:39 to free the slaves.

00:43:39 --> 00:43:44 And then we had the civil rights movement and good people rose

00:43:44 --> 00:43:44 up and fought

00:43:44 --> 00:43:46 against us and overcame it.

00:43:46 --> 00:43:50 So it's kind of this idea of almost like this sense of pride.

00:43:50 --> 00:43:52 We overcame racism.

00:43:52 --> 00:43:53 We beat it.

00:43:53 --> 00:43:54 Yeah.

00:43:54 --> 00:43:55 I mean, I think that's fair.

00:43:56 --> 00:43:57 Americans love to win things.

00:43:57 --> 00:43:57 Yeah.

00:43:59 --> 00:43:59 You know,

00:43:59 --> 00:44:03 and certainly there's a lot of things that have been won,

00:44:03 --> 00:44:03 you know,

00:44:03 --> 00:44:05 starting with sort of the Revolutionary War.

00:44:06 --> 00:44:10 So then to suggest that it still exists at a level using the

00:44:10 --> 00:44:11 word systemic,

00:44:11 --> 00:44:14 to some people it can feel like a slap in the face to

00:44:14 --> 00:44:15 everything that came before.

00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 And the people that fought and died in the Civil War,

00:44:19 --> 00:44:19 I mean,

00:44:19 --> 00:44:22 this is just one argument I've heard from people where it

00:44:22 --> 00:44:23 grinds their gears so

00:44:23 --> 00:44:27 much when you talk about racism using that label of systemic.

00:44:28 --> 00:44:29 No, that's an interesting thought.

00:44:29 --> 00:44:29 Again,

00:44:29 --> 00:44:33 I would say if it's a lot of offendedness over that,

00:44:33 --> 00:44:34 again,

00:44:34 --> 00:44:37 we can and should be appreciative of the many good things that

00:44:37 --> 00:44:39 we have through both

00:44:39 --> 00:44:42 our families of origin and our countries of origin and all that.

00:44:43 --> 00:44:44 But at the end of the day,

00:44:44 --> 00:44:45 as Christians,

00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 our primary identity is who we are in Christ.

00:44:49 --> 00:44:50 You know,

00:44:50 --> 00:44:51 and as Christians,

00:44:52 --> 00:44:53 you know,

00:44:53 --> 00:44:54 you mentioned kind of this,

00:44:54 --> 00:44:54 well,

00:44:54 --> 00:44:55 we arrived,

00:44:55 --> 00:44:56 right?

00:44:56 --> 00:44:59 We had a problem and we overcame it and now we've arrived.

00:44:59 --> 00:44:59 Well,

00:45:00 --> 00:45:00 okay,

00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 obviously there were certain steps that were big wins and let's

00:45:04 --> 00:45:05 not deny that,

00:45:05 --> 00:45:05 right?

00:45:05 --> 00:45:07 There has been a lot of improvement.

00:45:07 --> 00:45:10 And that's one thing that I've also heard some people kind of say.

00:45:10 --> 00:45:11 react to in this whole discussion,

00:45:11 --> 00:45:12 it's like,

00:45:12 --> 00:45:12 well,

00:45:12 --> 00:45:14 I feel like you're saying there's been no improvement.

00:45:14 --> 00:45:18 Well, that's absurd because obviously slavery is not legalized anymore.

00:45:18 --> 00:45:22 There have been certain protections and rights enshrined in the

00:45:22 --> 00:45:23 Civil Rights Acts.

00:45:23 --> 00:45:23 So,

00:45:24 --> 00:45:24 I mean,

00:45:24 --> 00:45:27 nobody is saying that by talking about systemic racism that

00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 there's been zero improvement.

00:45:29 --> 00:45:31 It's only saying that we still have some work to do.

00:45:32 --> 00:45:36 And really, as Christians, that's something that we ought to agree with.

00:45:36 --> 00:45:40 I mean, Paul says, you know, I don't talk as one who has arrived.

00:45:40 --> 00:45:42 You know, I'm still pressing on.

00:45:42 --> 00:45:43 I'm still pressing forward.

00:45:43 --> 00:45:44 None of us arrives,

00:45:44 --> 00:45:45 you know,

00:45:45 --> 00:45:46 no individual,

00:45:47 --> 00:45:47 you know,

00:45:47 --> 00:45:48 and by implication,

00:45:48 --> 00:45:53 certainly no earthly nation arrives at perfection,

00:45:53 --> 00:45:53 you know,

00:45:54 --> 00:45:55 until we're face to face with Jesus.

00:45:56 --> 00:45:56 So,

00:45:57 --> 00:45:57 you know,

00:45:57 --> 00:46:01 I would say that if that's a concept that somebody is getting

00:46:01 --> 00:46:01 offended about,

00:46:01 --> 00:46:02 like,

00:46:02 --> 00:46:02 oh,

00:46:02 --> 00:46:02 well,

00:46:02 --> 00:46:03 you're saying that,

00:46:03 --> 00:46:03 you know,

00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 we haven't sort of arrived at this place of perfection.

00:46:07 --> 00:46:08 Well, no, we haven't.

00:46:08 --> 00:46:09 None of us have.

00:46:09 --> 00:46:10 That's biblical.

00:46:10 --> 00:46:10 But,

00:46:11 --> 00:46:11 you know,

00:46:11 --> 00:46:11 again,

00:46:11 --> 00:46:12 in the end,

00:46:12 --> 00:46:14 you need to decide which narrative is more important for you.

00:46:15 --> 00:46:17 This narrative of kind of,

00:46:17 --> 00:46:17 you know,

00:46:17 --> 00:46:18 American,

00:46:19 --> 00:46:19 I guess,

00:46:19 --> 00:46:19 you know,

00:46:19 --> 00:46:22 achieving of perfection or whatever it is you want to call it,

00:46:22 --> 00:46:23 or the biblical narrative,

00:46:24 --> 00:46:24 which says that

00:46:25 --> 00:46:27 But we're on the way.

00:46:27 --> 00:46:29 We're still in process.

00:46:29 --> 00:46:30 That's good.

00:46:30 --> 00:46:34 And that's the interesting thing to me is when it comes to most sins,

00:46:35 --> 00:46:38 most Christians would agree that we haven't arrived and we

00:46:38 --> 00:46:39 haven't completely overcome.

00:46:39 --> 00:46:43 I even know people who at one time they had a sex addiction or

00:46:43 --> 00:46:44 a porn addiction and

00:46:44 --> 00:46:45 they overcame it.

00:46:45 --> 00:46:46 But then they would say like,

00:46:46 --> 00:46:46 oh,

00:46:46 --> 00:46:47 well,

00:46:47 --> 00:46:50 I still battle with lust and there's still an issue there.

00:46:50 --> 00:46:52 And so I still need to overcome.

00:46:53 --> 00:46:56 I still need to fight and battle that sin in my life.

00:46:56 --> 00:47:00 And so I think it's interesting when it comes to this topic of racism,

00:47:01 --> 00:47:03 it's one where people want to say,

00:47:03 --> 00:47:04 well,

00:47:04 --> 00:47:06 that's done and that's that.

00:47:06 --> 00:47:06 It's in the past.

00:47:07 --> 00:47:08 That's taken care of.

00:47:09 --> 00:47:11 So I think one of the reasons that that is,

00:47:11 --> 00:47:13 I mentioned this a little while ago,

00:47:13 --> 00:47:18 is that it's kind of this area in current American culture,

00:47:18 --> 00:47:19 particularly,

00:47:20 --> 00:47:20 where,

00:47:20 --> 00:47:21 you know,

00:47:21 --> 00:47:24 maybe there's a lot of things that the Bible says are sin that,

00:47:24 --> 00:47:24 you know,

00:47:24 --> 00:47:26 current culture doesn't say are sin.

00:47:26 --> 00:47:27 And,

00:47:27 --> 00:47:27 you know,

00:47:27 --> 00:47:28 even if you're doing them,

00:47:28 --> 00:47:28 well,

00:47:28 --> 00:47:30 nobody's really going to look down on you,

00:47:30 --> 00:47:30 you know,

00:47:30 --> 00:47:32 but with racism,

00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 here's an area where the culture actually says,

00:47:35 --> 00:47:36 no,

00:47:36 --> 00:47:36 this is sin.

00:47:37 --> 00:47:39 It doesn't necessarily use the word sin.

00:47:39 --> 00:47:39 Right.

00:47:39 --> 00:47:40 But it says it's evil.

00:47:40 --> 00:47:40 It's wrong.

00:47:41 --> 00:47:41 It's unacceptable.

00:47:42 --> 00:47:42 Yes.

00:47:42 --> 00:47:42 Yeah.

00:47:43 --> 00:47:43 You know,

00:47:43 --> 00:47:44 and so,

00:47:44 --> 00:47:44 again,

00:47:45 --> 00:47:46 to to admit that,

00:47:46 --> 00:47:46 wow,

00:47:46 --> 00:47:47 you know,

00:47:47 --> 00:47:47 well,

00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 I can't accept this possibility that I still have this thing

00:47:51 --> 00:47:52 because I would be ashamed.

00:47:53 --> 00:47:55 You know, you know, I don't want to be guilty of that.

00:47:55 --> 00:47:55 But again,

00:47:56 --> 00:47:59 the gospel says that,

00:47:59 --> 00:47:59 you know,

00:48:00 --> 00:48:00 on the one hand,

00:48:00 --> 00:48:01 we are guilty.

00:48:02 --> 00:48:02 Right.

00:48:02 --> 00:48:06 We had all this shame and Christ has taken it for us.

00:48:06 --> 00:48:06 Right.

00:48:07 --> 00:48:11 We don't we don't repent because we haven't been forgiven.

00:48:11 --> 00:48:13 We repent because we are forgiven as Christians.

00:48:14 --> 00:48:14 Hmm.

00:48:14 --> 00:48:15 Right.

00:48:15 --> 00:48:19 It's actually what allows us to be free and quick to repent is

00:48:19 --> 00:48:20 because we know that

00:48:20 --> 00:48:22 God is already taking care of,

00:48:22 --> 00:48:22 you know,

00:48:22 --> 00:48:24 these issues of guilt and shame.

00:48:24 --> 00:48:24 Right.

00:48:24 --> 00:48:25 You know,

00:48:25 --> 00:48:25 but unfortunately,

00:48:25 --> 00:48:27 I think people are more worried about,

00:48:27 --> 00:48:27 well,

00:48:27 --> 00:48:28 you know,

00:48:28 --> 00:48:29 if I admit this,

00:48:30 --> 00:48:34 how will my coworkers look at me or how will my neighbors look

00:48:34 --> 00:48:35 at me if I say like,

00:48:35 --> 00:48:35 yeah,

00:48:35 --> 00:48:36 I've actually got racism problems.

00:48:37 --> 00:48:38 Which ironically,

00:48:39 --> 00:48:41 it's when you deny that you have even the slightest trace of

00:48:41 --> 00:48:42 racism that you

00:48:42 --> 00:48:45 probably actually still have a good bit to deal with.

00:48:46 --> 00:48:49 And the people who are kind of more sensitive towards it around you,

00:48:50 --> 00:48:50 you know,

00:48:50 --> 00:48:52 they don't applaud you for saying,

00:48:52 --> 00:48:52 oh,

00:48:52 --> 00:48:53 I don't have any racism.

00:48:53 --> 00:48:54 If anything,

00:48:54 --> 00:48:57 it would be better if you kind of admitted the areas where it's

00:48:57 --> 00:48:57 creeping through.

00:48:57 --> 00:48:57 Yeah.

00:48:58 --> 00:48:58 Right.

00:48:59 --> 00:48:59 Yeah, totally.

00:48:59 --> 00:49:00 That makes sense.

00:49:00 --> 00:49:02 I think the people who listen to this show,

00:49:03 --> 00:49:07 they know that we often challenge what would be considered to

00:49:07 --> 00:49:08 be mainstream

00:49:08 --> 00:49:13 political thought on things because we're trying to push people

00:49:13 --> 00:49:15 to think outside of

00:49:15 --> 00:49:18 the political lines and think theologically about things and to

00:49:18 --> 00:49:19 not let political

00:49:19 --> 00:49:23 influences be the main influence on how they think.

00:49:23 --> 00:49:26 Because again, I think Jesus doesn't lean left or right.

00:49:26 --> 00:49:29 I think the kingdom of God transcends earthly politics.

00:49:29 --> 00:49:32 And so earthly politics can't be our framework for things.

00:49:33 --> 00:49:35 It's not that we want people to be less conservative and more

00:49:35 --> 00:49:36 liberal or less liberal,

00:49:36 --> 00:49:37 more conservative.

00:49:38 --> 00:49:41 We're trying to help people free themselves from kind of the

00:49:41 --> 00:49:42 shackles of that

00:49:43 --> 00:49:44 narrow-minded way of thinking.

00:49:44 --> 00:49:47 One of the things I'm trying to do is just to help people think

00:49:47 --> 00:49:48 outside of those boxes.

00:49:48 --> 00:49:50 So with that in mind, there's something I wanna address.

00:49:50 --> 00:49:53 Many of my friends that I've talked to have expressed

00:49:53 --> 00:49:55 frustration because one thing

00:49:55 --> 00:49:58 that's coming from the political left right now is this

00:49:58 --> 00:50:00 rhetoric about racism,

00:50:00 --> 00:50:04 basically this idea that only white people can be racist.

00:50:04 --> 00:50:05 In the entire face of the world,

00:50:06 --> 00:50:10 they're the only ones that can be racist because they've been

00:50:10 --> 00:50:11 in this position of

00:50:11 --> 00:50:12 power over minorities.

00:50:13 --> 00:50:17 And for me, I've pushed up against that because I can acknowledge

00:50:18 --> 00:50:19 that in the story of America,

00:50:20 --> 00:50:21 in the history of America,

00:50:21 --> 00:50:23 and in the history of a lot of Western Europe,

00:50:24 --> 00:50:29 of course there has been a history of white people oppressing minorities,

00:50:29 --> 00:50:30 for sure.

00:50:30 --> 00:50:33 But to say that because of that history,

00:50:33 --> 00:50:36 to then say that only white people can be racist,

00:50:36 --> 00:50:40 I was talking to a friend of mine who's a bit more of a left-leaning guy,

00:50:40 --> 00:50:41 and I just asked him,

00:50:41 --> 00:50:41 I was like,

00:50:41 --> 00:50:42 okay,

00:50:42 --> 00:50:42 so let's,

00:50:42 --> 00:50:43 like hypothetical,

00:50:44 --> 00:50:47 if a white kid goes to an inner city school

00:50:47 --> 00:50:52 And let's just say a bunch of black kids make fun of that white

00:50:52 --> 00:50:53 kid or mock him

00:50:53 --> 00:50:55 because of the color of their skin.

00:50:56 --> 00:50:57 Do you call that racism?

00:50:57 --> 00:50:59 Like, is that racist?

00:50:59 --> 00:51:01 Because that seems to fit the profile.

00:51:02 --> 00:51:04 Like if it was a bunch of white kids mocking a black kid,

00:51:04 --> 00:51:05 we would call that racist.

00:51:06 --> 00:51:08 And my friend responded and was like, oh, well, no, that's not racism.

00:51:08 --> 00:51:09 That's something else.

00:51:09 --> 00:51:10 That's maybe prejudice racism.

00:51:10 --> 00:51:12 But it's not racist.

00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 And yeah, I mean, it's it's hard for me to fully get on board with that.

00:51:17 --> 00:51:18 And I know for a lot of other people,

00:51:18 --> 00:51:20 it's it's it's hard to get on board with that.

00:51:20 --> 00:51:24 So we have these terms, but no one can really agree.

00:51:24 --> 00:51:27 Conservatives and liberals are kind of speaking a different

00:51:27 --> 00:51:28 language at one another

00:51:28 --> 00:51:30 and they're defining terms differently.

00:51:30 --> 00:51:31 You know,

00:51:31 --> 00:51:33 I'm going down the rabbit hole right now of academics and

00:51:34 --> 00:51:35 modern academic thought

00:51:35 --> 00:51:36 and definitions,

00:51:36 --> 00:51:38 but it can just be frustrating because,

00:51:38 --> 00:51:38 you know,

00:51:38 --> 00:51:40 basically it feels for some,

00:51:40 --> 00:51:43 it can feel like an attack on white people from the more

00:51:43 --> 00:51:44 conservative side of thing.

00:51:44 --> 00:51:47 I see this sentiment posted all the time on social media where

00:51:47 --> 00:51:47 it just feels like,

00:51:48 --> 00:51:48 ah,

00:51:48 --> 00:51:52 the whole world is against white people and everybody is against us.

00:51:52 --> 00:51:56 And they think that we're all just a bunch of flaming racists.

00:51:56 --> 00:51:58 So, I mean, what do you think, Ben?

00:51:58 --> 00:51:59 Can you speak into that at all?

00:51:59 --> 00:52:03 Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, let's clarify.

00:52:03 --> 00:52:06 And this is something that I actually had a few questions on

00:52:06 --> 00:52:06 the articles that I

00:52:06 --> 00:52:09 wrote and had some good conversation with some people.

00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 One thing that I pointed out is that, you know, this is a sin issue.

00:52:14 --> 00:52:16 The Bible says that we're all born sinners.

00:52:17 --> 00:52:18 It doesn't matter what color you are.

00:52:19 --> 00:52:19 Right.

00:52:19 --> 00:52:23 Whether you're white or black or Latino or Asian or whatever else,

00:52:23 --> 00:52:23 you know,

00:52:24 --> 00:52:27 any individual is capable really of any sin,

00:52:28 --> 00:52:28 you know,

00:52:28 --> 00:52:30 and racism is among those,

00:52:31 --> 00:52:31 you know.

00:52:31 --> 00:52:33 So if if, you know, I don't know.

00:52:34 --> 00:52:36 I mean, again, I'm here in Ukraine, right?

00:52:36 --> 00:52:39 So while we do have a very few,

00:52:40 --> 00:52:44 let's say a handful of African students that study in the

00:52:44 --> 00:52:45 universities here,

00:52:45 --> 00:52:47 there's really not many black people at all,

00:52:47 --> 00:52:47 right?

00:52:48 --> 00:52:48 But,

00:52:49 --> 00:52:49 you know,

00:52:49 --> 00:52:51 there are a handful of other minorities here,

00:52:51 --> 00:52:53 although it's predominantly Ukrainian.

00:52:54 --> 00:53:00 you know can can one of the turkish taxi drivers or can you

00:53:00 --> 00:53:02 know one of the roma or

00:53:02 --> 00:53:07 gypsy otherwise called you know if they have hatred or

00:53:07 --> 00:53:09 antipathy towards you know

00:53:09 --> 00:53:12 let's say ukrainian because they're ukrainian is that racism of

00:53:12 --> 00:53:13 course it is

00:53:13 --> 00:53:15 because it's based on the race yeah or let's say their

00:53:15 --> 00:53:17 ethnicity i mean tomato

00:53:17 --> 00:53:18 tomato right yeah

00:53:18 --> 00:53:23 Now, it's different when you ask, what about systemic racism?

00:53:23 --> 00:53:28 Individual racism, any individual can really be guilty of.

00:53:29 --> 00:53:34 Systemic racism implies that you have the power to create a system.

00:53:34 --> 00:53:35 So really,

00:53:36 --> 00:53:39 power or authority is somewhat of an equivalent,

00:53:40 --> 00:53:40 sorry,

00:53:40 --> 00:53:41 not an equivalent,

00:53:41 --> 00:53:44 but a necessary ingredient of

00:53:44 --> 00:53:48 To create kind of these these structures of systemic racism.

00:53:48 --> 00:53:48 Right.

00:53:48 --> 00:53:52 So like an analogy for that might be to put it in practical terms.

00:53:52 --> 00:53:56 So if you drop 10 black people and 10 white people on a

00:53:56 --> 00:53:58 deserted island and let's say,

00:53:58 --> 00:53:58 you know,

00:53:58 --> 00:54:01 there's none of that cultural baggage that comes with it.

00:54:01 --> 00:54:03 It's just 10 people with black skin, 10 people with white skin.

00:54:04 --> 00:54:08 And if the 10 white people on the island come up with all of a

00:54:08 --> 00:54:08 sudden this

00:54:08 --> 00:54:11 governmental structure that oppresses the black people,

00:54:11 --> 00:54:13 that would be systemic racism.

00:54:13 --> 00:54:14 And then by the same token,

00:54:15 --> 00:54:17 if the black people were to come up with some system that then

00:54:17 --> 00:54:18 oppressed the white people,

00:54:19 --> 00:54:21 that would also be systemic racism.

00:54:21 --> 00:54:22 Is that, is that okay?

00:54:22 --> 00:54:23 Or is that like too simplistic?

00:54:24 --> 00:54:25 It's, it's not too simplistic.

00:54:25 --> 00:54:28 The only problem with that equation is that you've got them,

00:54:28 --> 00:54:30 got them split 50,

00:54:30 --> 00:54:30 50,

00:54:30 --> 00:54:30 right?

00:54:31 --> 00:54:33 Almost in all cases, not always there, there,

00:54:34 --> 00:54:36 Let's say 10 and three, you know.

00:54:38 --> 00:54:38 Right.

00:54:38 --> 00:54:38 Yeah.

00:54:39 --> 00:54:40 And why do I say that?

00:54:40 --> 00:54:42 Because normally power comes with the majority.

00:54:42 --> 00:54:43 Right.

00:54:43 --> 00:54:43 Right.

00:54:43 --> 00:54:44 So so typically,

00:54:44 --> 00:54:45 you know,

00:54:45 --> 00:54:47 for for to set in place a systemic,

00:54:47 --> 00:54:47 you know,

00:54:47 --> 00:54:50 a racist system,

00:54:50 --> 00:54:51 let's put it that way.

00:54:51 --> 00:54:52 You know, you need to have power.

00:54:52 --> 00:54:56 And again, that usually comes with sort of a majority culture.

00:54:57 --> 00:54:58 Now, that's not always the case.

00:54:58 --> 00:54:58 Historically,

00:54:58 --> 00:55:00 there have been exceptions where,

00:55:00 --> 00:55:00 you know,

00:55:00 --> 00:55:04 there's sort of a politically powerful minority that rules and

00:55:04 --> 00:55:05 oppresses somebody

00:55:05 --> 00:55:07 who's actually ethnically a majority,

00:55:08 --> 00:55:08 just,

00:55:08 --> 00:55:08 you know,

00:55:08 --> 00:55:09 straight numbers wise.

00:55:10 --> 00:55:14 But it's again, it's about it's about which group has power in that case.

00:55:14 --> 00:55:19 Now, let's take it from the island and go back to the United States.

00:55:19 --> 00:55:20 Obviously,

00:55:20 --> 00:55:25 the white colonists and then once America became a country,

00:55:25 --> 00:55:27 they were the ones that really had the power.

00:55:27 --> 00:55:28 They had the technology.

00:55:28 --> 00:55:31 They brought over black people as slaves.

00:55:31 --> 00:55:34 So there was really no question there of who had the power.

00:55:35 --> 00:55:35 And again,

00:55:35 --> 00:55:36 as we've already said,

00:55:36 --> 00:55:38 for hundreds of years,

00:55:38 --> 00:55:42 they created systems that were designed to oppress Black people.

00:55:42 --> 00:55:43 And even though,

00:55:43 --> 00:55:43 again,

00:55:43 --> 00:55:45 there's been great strides forward,

00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 you can't have those kinds of systems for just,

00:55:49 --> 00:55:49 you know,

00:55:50 --> 00:55:52 hundreds and hundreds of years and expect them just to kind of,

00:55:52 --> 00:55:52 you know,

00:55:53 --> 00:55:54 at the signing of a pen,

00:55:54 --> 00:55:56 just dissipate within the span of 50 years.

00:55:56 --> 00:55:57 That's not really how anything works.

00:55:58 --> 00:55:58 No, yeah, yeah.

00:55:58 --> 00:55:59 That's a fair point.

00:56:00 --> 00:56:02 I think going back to the idea of systemic racism,

00:56:02 --> 00:56:06 I just want to bring up a very common pushback that I've heard

00:56:06 --> 00:56:06 and I'm sure that

00:56:06 --> 00:56:07 you've heard.

00:56:07 --> 00:56:10 And maybe you even heard this from responses to the writing of

00:56:10 --> 00:56:11 your article.

00:56:11 --> 00:56:12 So I'd love to get your take.

00:56:13 --> 00:56:16 So this year we've had protests and riots that are a direct

00:56:16 --> 00:56:17 response to law

00:56:17 --> 00:56:21 enforcement when it comes to the handling of race and black

00:56:21 --> 00:56:22 people and minorities.

00:56:23 --> 00:56:24 And for me personally,

00:56:24 --> 00:56:25 this year,

00:56:25 --> 00:56:25 you know,

00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 I've heard a lot of evidences for systemic racism when it comes

00:56:29 --> 00:56:29 to things like law

00:56:29 --> 00:56:34 enforcement and the court and incarceration of minorities and

00:56:34 --> 00:56:34 the way that law

00:56:34 --> 00:56:36 enforcement handles minorities.

00:56:36 --> 00:56:36 And,

00:56:37 --> 00:56:38 you know,

00:56:38 --> 00:56:40 so for me as somebody consuming information,

00:56:40 --> 00:56:43 I'm seeing that on one side and then consistently on the other side,

00:56:43 --> 00:56:47 I'm seeing white conservative and some actually black

00:56:47 --> 00:56:48 conservative pundits.

00:56:49 --> 00:56:53 pushing back and saying, oh, that's just, that's not real.

00:56:53 --> 00:56:55 There's not really that evidence.

00:56:55 --> 00:56:56 It's fake.

00:56:56 --> 00:56:56 It's false.

00:56:57 --> 00:56:57 It's fake news.

00:56:58 --> 00:57:00 There's just this debate on the two sides.

00:57:00 --> 00:57:02 And basically it's boiled down to,

00:57:02 --> 00:57:03 if I can,

00:57:03 --> 00:57:07 it's boiled down to black people are protesting and rioting

00:57:07 --> 00:57:08 because they're saying

00:57:08 --> 00:57:12 that they are disproportionately shot and killed by police

00:57:12 --> 00:57:14 officers when they're unarmed.

00:57:14 --> 00:57:17 But then the more conservative pundits will look and they'll say,

00:57:17 --> 00:57:18 well,

00:57:18 --> 00:57:19 look at the statistics.

00:57:19 --> 00:57:23 It's actually white people that are shot unarmed more than black people.

00:57:23 --> 00:57:24 So they'll say,

00:57:24 --> 00:57:25 the pundits will say,

00:57:25 --> 00:57:25 you know,

00:57:26 --> 00:57:29 really black people have no right to complain because they have

00:57:29 --> 00:57:29 it way better than

00:57:30 --> 00:57:32 white people when it comes to the average amount of people that

00:57:32 --> 00:57:33 are shot by the police.

00:57:33 --> 00:57:33 So

00:57:34 --> 00:57:34 You know,

00:57:34 --> 00:57:35 for me,

00:57:35 --> 00:57:38 that's been something as a pastor where I'm struggling to

00:57:38 --> 00:57:39 filter through this

00:57:39 --> 00:57:44 information because we live in this age where there's these two

00:57:44 --> 00:57:45 ideologies that are

00:57:45 --> 00:57:48 constantly fighting this left-leaning ideology and this

00:57:48 --> 00:57:49 right-leaning ideology that

00:57:49 --> 00:57:51 are constantly trying to define what truth is.

00:57:51 --> 00:57:54 And there's this huge debate.

00:57:54 --> 00:57:55 For me as a pastor,

00:57:55 --> 00:57:58 what I'm constantly wondering as I filter through this information is,

00:57:59 --> 00:58:00 how do I respond to this?

00:58:00 --> 00:58:01 How

00:58:01 --> 00:58:02 How do I filter this information?

00:58:02 --> 00:58:05 What's the correct way to think about this?

00:58:05 --> 00:58:05 I mean,

00:58:06 --> 00:58:06 you know,

00:58:06 --> 00:58:10 obviously you can hear those sorts of statistics from time to time.

00:58:10 --> 00:58:11 And yes, I've heard them too.

00:58:12 --> 00:58:13 If you dig into,

00:58:13 --> 00:58:13 and this means,

00:58:13 --> 00:58:14 you know,

00:58:14 --> 00:58:16 you actually have to get into sort of some of the academic

00:58:16 --> 00:58:17 literature and studies.

00:58:18 --> 00:58:19 But if you dig into it,

00:58:19 --> 00:58:19 you know,

00:58:20 --> 00:58:21 some of those statistics to say,

00:58:21 --> 00:58:21 oh,

00:58:21 --> 00:58:22 well,

00:58:22 --> 00:58:22 you know,

00:58:22 --> 00:58:25 black people actually aren't disproportionately targeted.

00:58:26 --> 00:58:29 Really what's happening is a bit of cherry picking of statistics.

00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 There are certain certain ways or certain qualifications that

00:58:32 --> 00:58:33 people use to kind of,

00:58:34 --> 00:58:34 you know,

00:58:34 --> 00:58:36 make make them say what they want them to say.

00:58:36 --> 00:58:37 I mean,

00:58:37 --> 00:58:37 you know,

00:58:37 --> 00:58:38 there's that old saying of,

00:58:38 --> 00:58:38 you know,

00:58:38 --> 00:58:39 lies,

00:58:39 --> 00:58:40 damn lies and statistics.

00:58:40 --> 00:58:40 Right.

00:58:41 --> 00:58:43 Which I can do that because Pastor Chuck would would do that.

00:58:43 --> 00:58:44 Yeah.

00:58:45 --> 00:58:48 He would quote things that you're like, wow, Chuck just said that.

00:58:48 --> 00:58:49 So,

00:58:49 --> 00:58:49 you know,

00:58:50 --> 00:58:51 but at the end of the day,

00:58:51 --> 00:58:52 if you dig into these things,

00:58:52 --> 00:58:53 you know,

00:58:53 --> 00:58:56 black people do suffer disproportionately,

00:58:56 --> 00:58:57 you know,

00:58:57 --> 00:58:59 not obviously not amount wise,

00:58:59 --> 00:59:00 because black people are only,

00:59:00 --> 00:59:00 you know,

00:59:00 --> 00:59:03 12 or 13 percent of the population in America.

00:59:03 --> 00:59:06 So are there more white people that are shot by police in America?

00:59:06 --> 00:59:06 Sure.

00:59:07 --> 00:59:08 But that's because there's a lot more white people.

00:59:09 --> 00:59:12 You know, and I mean, this is not the place to dig into all the numbers.

00:59:12 --> 00:59:14 I actually did in my first article,

00:59:14 --> 00:59:17 I linked a couple academic studies on these questions.

00:59:18 --> 00:59:20 So those who are interested in looking at that can,

00:59:20 --> 00:59:20 you know,

00:59:20 --> 00:59:23 follow the links and actually read some of the numbers.

00:59:23 --> 00:59:24 But yeah,

00:59:24 --> 00:59:25 that to say that,

00:59:25 --> 00:59:25 you know,

00:59:26 --> 00:59:29 just because somebody cherry picks a statistic to say,

00:59:29 --> 00:59:29 oh,

00:59:29 --> 00:59:29 well,

00:59:29 --> 00:59:30 it's actually not a problem.

00:59:31 --> 00:59:31 You need to dig deeper.

00:59:32 --> 00:59:34 Yeah, that's that's a good point.

00:59:34 --> 00:59:34 And,

00:59:35 --> 00:59:35 you know,

00:59:35 --> 00:59:39 the place my mind goes to in these situations is there's really

00:59:39 --> 00:59:39 two things that

00:59:39 --> 00:59:40 we're talking about.

00:59:40 --> 00:59:42 We're talking about one racism,

00:59:42 --> 00:59:42 which,

00:59:42 --> 00:59:43 to be fair,

00:59:44 --> 00:59:47 every time a white police officer shoots a black person.

00:59:48 --> 00:59:51 We can't look at every single scenario and just automatically say,

00:59:51 --> 00:59:51 oh,

00:59:51 --> 00:59:52 it's racism.

00:59:52 --> 00:59:53 Because sometimes it's not.

00:59:53 --> 00:59:56 Sometimes it's a cop just making a bad call.

00:59:56 --> 00:59:59 Sometimes it's literally just a bad police decision.

01:00:00 --> 01:00:03 Other times a criminal is shot because they're committing a crime and

01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 But then we can't also deny that there still is the problem of

01:00:06 --> 01:00:07 racism existing,

01:00:07 --> 01:00:11 and sometimes there are police officers acting in a racist way.

01:00:12 --> 01:00:15 The problem of racism existing isn't just boiled down to,

01:00:16 --> 01:00:20 does a person of one race hate another person from another race?

01:00:20 --> 01:00:23 Sometimes there's circumstances where the reason the trigger

01:00:23 --> 01:00:24 was pulled was because

01:00:24 --> 01:00:25 of either outright racism,

01:00:25 --> 01:00:28 where a cop actually has very deep-seated,

01:00:28 --> 01:00:30 hateful feelings towards the minority group.

01:00:30 --> 01:00:31 That's real.

01:00:32 --> 01:00:32 You know,

01:00:32 --> 01:00:34 I was watching a YouTube video the other night from a guy who

01:00:34 --> 01:00:36 used to be a cop and

01:00:36 --> 01:00:39 he was telling his experience of what it was like to be on the

01:00:39 --> 01:00:40 police force in his town.

01:00:40 --> 01:00:42 And he was saying when he worked on the precinct,

01:00:43 --> 01:00:44 he was basically trained,

01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 not officially through official training,

01:00:46 --> 01:00:49 but trained by the example of the other officers on the force

01:00:49 --> 01:00:50 and things that other

01:00:50 --> 01:00:51 officers said to him.

01:00:52 --> 01:00:55 He was trained by them to hate minorities and just to assume

01:00:55 --> 01:00:56 that all minorities

01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 were criminals and assume that they were all up to no good and

01:00:59 --> 01:01:00 assume that they

01:01:00 --> 01:01:01 were less than human.

01:01:01 --> 01:01:03 So I'm just saying that does happen.

01:01:03 --> 01:01:05 It's not the case across the board.

01:01:06 --> 01:01:08 We can't make blanket statements and say every cop is like this,

01:01:08 --> 01:01:10 or every black person is like this,

01:01:10 --> 01:01:11 or every minority is like this.

01:01:11 --> 01:01:15 But I'm just trying to say that this stuff does happen.

01:01:16 --> 01:01:17 So obviously every case is different,

01:01:18 --> 01:01:19 But one thought I've had is,

01:01:20 --> 01:01:20 again,

01:01:20 --> 01:01:20 right,

01:01:20 --> 01:01:22 there's two things we're talking about.

01:01:22 --> 01:01:23 One is racism.

01:01:23 --> 01:01:26 And then the other issue, number two, is police brutality.

01:01:26 --> 01:01:29 So I've heard in the conversation of race and many comment threads on the

01:01:29 --> 01:01:32 discussion where basically someone will bring up,

01:01:32 --> 01:01:32 you know,

01:01:32 --> 01:01:32 oh,

01:01:32 --> 01:01:34 black people are complaining.

01:01:34 --> 01:01:37 But what about white people who get shot, you know, wrongfully as well?

01:01:38 --> 01:01:40 And they bring up a guy like Daniel Shaver.

01:01:40 --> 01:01:41 I don't know if you are familiar with that story,

01:01:41 --> 01:01:42 but Daniel Shaver,

01:01:42 --> 01:01:44 there's a video footage that you can watch.

01:01:44 --> 01:01:45 It's pretty gruesome,

01:01:45 --> 01:01:49 but it's this white guy who was gunned down in a hotel hallway,

01:01:49 --> 01:01:50 totally innocent.

01:01:51 --> 01:01:52 He's on the ground,

01:01:52 --> 01:01:52 you know,

01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 begging for his life saying,

01:01:54 --> 01:01:55 I don't have a weapon.

01:01:55 --> 01:01:56 He's got his hands in the air,

01:01:57 --> 01:02:00 but he was shot by this cop who made a terrible,

01:02:00 --> 01:02:01 terrible decision.

01:02:01 --> 01:02:03 So people are like, hey, what about that?

01:02:03 --> 01:02:04 What about Daniel Shaver?

01:02:04 --> 01:02:06 Like black people are complaining about getting shot,

01:02:06 --> 01:02:07 but white people get shot too.

01:02:08 --> 01:02:10 And they'll bring it up as like a deflection,

01:02:10 --> 01:02:12 like stop talking about racism.

01:02:12 --> 01:02:13 But my thing is like,

01:02:13 --> 01:02:13 well,

01:02:13 --> 01:02:14 hold on,

01:02:14 --> 01:02:14 like black people,

01:02:15 --> 01:02:15 white people,

01:02:15 --> 01:02:17 we're kind of talking about similar problems.

01:02:18 --> 01:02:20 If there's a problem affecting one group,

01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 if the problem of police brutality is affecting black people,

01:02:24 --> 01:02:25 and then for white people to say,

01:02:25 --> 01:02:25 well,

01:02:26 --> 01:02:27 it also affects us,

01:02:27 --> 01:02:29 the solution probably isn't to say,

01:02:30 --> 01:02:30 well,

01:02:30 --> 01:02:32 my complaint cancels out your complaint,

01:02:32 --> 01:02:33 so just no one should complain.

01:02:34 --> 01:02:37 I think the solution should probably be like, let's join together, right?

01:02:38 --> 01:02:39 As people,

01:02:39 --> 01:02:40 as black people and white people,

01:02:41 --> 01:02:45 let's say we should care about police brutality.

01:02:45 --> 01:02:47 The answer isn't to say that all police are brutal,

01:02:48 --> 01:02:49 but we should care about police brutality.

01:02:50 --> 01:02:50 And for me,

01:02:50 --> 01:02:53 like if I'm listening to a black person talk about their

01:02:53 --> 01:02:54 experience with police brutality,

01:02:55 --> 01:02:56 my response should be like,

01:02:56 --> 01:02:56 oh,

01:02:56 --> 01:02:57 man,

01:02:57 --> 01:02:57 like,

01:02:57 --> 01:02:57 yes,

01:02:58 --> 01:02:59 I'm listening to what you have to say.

01:02:59 --> 01:03:02 I'm so sorry that this has affected your family.

01:03:03 --> 01:03:04 Here's some of the ways it's affected mine.

01:03:04 --> 01:03:05 Wow.

01:03:05 --> 01:03:06 Let's let's grieve together.

01:03:06 --> 01:03:09 Let's talk about solutions to this problem together instead of

01:03:10 --> 01:03:10 just saying,

01:03:10 --> 01:03:11 you know,

01:03:11 --> 01:03:12 my pain cancels out your pain.

01:03:13 --> 01:03:14 Does that does that make sense?

01:03:14 --> 01:03:14 You know what I mean?

01:03:14 --> 01:03:16 Oh, yeah, for sure.

01:03:16 --> 01:03:18 You know, and that's I mean, there's two things here.

01:03:18 --> 01:03:20 First of all, you know, you're right.

01:03:20 --> 01:03:23 Not only black people or minorities get,

01:03:23 --> 01:03:23 you know,

01:03:24 --> 01:03:25 wrongfully killed by police.

01:03:25 --> 01:03:27 So there is a question of police violence.

01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 culture and use of force.

01:03:29 --> 01:03:30 You know,

01:03:30 --> 01:03:31 the other issue is,

01:03:31 --> 01:03:32 I mean,

01:03:32 --> 01:03:33 you know,

01:03:33 --> 01:03:34 you used an example,

01:03:34 --> 01:03:34 I believe,

01:03:35 --> 01:03:35 of this,

01:03:35 --> 01:03:35 you know,

01:03:36 --> 01:03:40 YouTube video where a cop was kind of talking about how he was unofficially,

01:03:40 --> 01:03:40 right,

01:03:40 --> 01:03:43 trained to look down on minorities.

01:03:43 --> 01:03:46 And that really, I mean, kind of that unofficial training, right?

01:03:46 --> 01:03:49 I mean, they say that culture is more caught than taught.

01:03:49 --> 01:03:52 And that's really kind of starting to get at, you know,

01:03:52 --> 01:03:55 an area where you see systemic racism creeping through,

01:03:55 --> 01:04:00 even though there's no legislation saying you should suspect minorities,

01:04:00 --> 01:04:00 right?

01:04:01 --> 01:04:01 But,

01:04:01 --> 01:04:01 you know,

01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 if a comp is maybe more inclined,

01:04:05 --> 01:04:08 even kind of in a way at a subconscious level,

01:04:08 --> 01:04:11 to use more violence or to know that,

01:04:11 --> 01:04:12 you know,

01:04:12 --> 01:04:15 he can do so with impunity because it's less likely that anyone...

01:04:16 --> 01:04:19 You know, we'll we'll kind of push back.

01:04:19 --> 01:04:19 You know,

01:04:19 --> 01:04:21 these these are areas where,

01:04:21 --> 01:04:21 you know,

01:04:21 --> 01:04:21 again,

01:04:21 --> 01:04:25 this the systemic racism issue really kind of seeps through.

01:04:25 --> 01:04:26 Yeah, that makes sense.

01:04:26 --> 01:04:28 I fully agree with that.

01:04:28 --> 01:04:28 And,

01:04:29 --> 01:04:29 you know,

01:04:29 --> 01:04:33 I think I'd love to know if this is something where you feel

01:04:33 --> 01:04:34 maybe we're on the

01:04:34 --> 01:04:36 right track here when it comes to systemic racism.

01:04:37 --> 01:04:40 Remember how I was talking about the boomer pastor and the

01:04:40 --> 01:04:41 millennial pastor and

01:04:41 --> 01:04:45 the boomer pastor had this perspective of when you say systemic racism,

01:04:45 --> 01:04:47 you're saying the entire system is broken and every cop is

01:04:47 --> 01:04:49 racist and every judge

01:04:49 --> 01:04:49 is racist.

01:04:50 --> 01:04:51 And I just don't think that's right.

01:04:51 --> 01:04:54 I think for us as younger pastors, we'd agree with that guy.

01:04:54 --> 01:04:55 We'd say, no, yeah, I don't agree with that.

01:04:55 --> 01:04:56 I don't think that's right.

01:04:56 --> 01:04:59 I don't think every judge and cop and police force is racist.

01:04:59 --> 01:05:00 That's not what we're saying.

01:05:01 --> 01:05:04 What we're saying is there are some places that have brokenness

01:05:05 --> 01:05:05 and we're just

01:05:05 --> 01:05:07 raising awareness of that.

01:05:07 --> 01:05:11 We're saying, let's find these places where there are issues.

01:05:11 --> 01:05:12 Let's find the problems where they are.

01:05:12 --> 01:05:14 Let's root it out and let's make a change.

01:05:15 --> 01:05:17 And I think that's what you have to do as a society.

01:05:17 --> 01:05:17 I mean,

01:05:17 --> 01:05:18 there's so many TED Talks,

01:05:18 --> 01:05:19 right,

01:05:19 --> 01:05:21 about different things like child sex trafficking or abortion

01:05:22 --> 01:05:23 or prostitution or bullying.

01:05:23 --> 01:05:25 You name it.

01:05:25 --> 01:05:27 There's so many things that we could talk about where it's like,

01:05:27 --> 01:05:28 hey,

01:05:28 --> 01:05:29 this is still a problem.

01:05:29 --> 01:05:30 We need to address it when it arises.

01:05:31 --> 01:05:32 And we need to do something about it.

01:05:32 --> 01:05:36 And I think that's the perspective we should have towards

01:05:36 --> 01:05:37 systemic racism,

01:05:38 --> 01:05:41 not let's burn the entire system down and not let's riot.

01:05:41 --> 01:05:44 Let's set the city on fire and just demand and scream at

01:05:44 --> 01:05:45 politicians until we get our way.

01:05:45 --> 01:05:46 That's not how anything works.

01:05:47 --> 01:05:51 But I think acknowledging this as a problem and just continuing

01:05:51 --> 01:05:52 to fight it

01:05:52 --> 01:05:53 throughout our lives,

01:05:53 --> 01:05:56 because it's not going to go away overnight and we're probably

01:05:56 --> 01:05:57 not going to fix it

01:05:57 --> 01:05:59 in 2020 or 2021.

01:05:58 --> 01:06:00 This is an ongoing battle.

01:06:01 --> 01:06:04 And really it's going to take Christians leading the way in

01:06:04 --> 01:06:04 pointing people to

01:06:04 --> 01:06:08 solutions that I would say are bipartisan solutions and

01:06:08 --> 01:06:10 solutions that are gospel

01:06:10 --> 01:06:11 centered solutions.

01:06:11 --> 01:06:11 Yeah.

01:06:12 --> 01:06:13 Martin Luther King,

01:06:13 --> 01:06:13 who,

01:06:14 --> 01:06:14 you know,

01:06:14 --> 01:06:17 kind of was obviously champion of civil rights,

01:06:17 --> 01:06:17 you know,

01:06:17 --> 01:06:22 and kind of well known for his nonviolent approach to the whole thing.

01:06:23 --> 01:06:24 There is a speech where,

01:06:24 --> 01:06:24 you know,

01:06:24 --> 01:06:27 he mentions that although he doesn't approve it or think that

01:06:27 --> 01:06:28 it's necessarily helpful,

01:06:28 --> 01:06:32 but he says that riots are the language of the unheard.

01:06:32 --> 01:06:32 Right.

01:06:32 --> 01:06:35 When they feel when it's kind of out of this place of just desperation,

01:06:35 --> 01:06:36 frustration,

01:06:37 --> 01:06:40 You know, they just they just don't know what else to do.

01:06:40 --> 01:06:41 And so,

01:06:41 --> 01:06:41 you know,

01:06:41 --> 01:06:43 we can while we can look at that and say,

01:06:43 --> 01:06:43 you know,

01:06:43 --> 01:06:44 this is obviously not helpful.

01:06:45 --> 01:06:46 At the same time,

01:06:46 --> 01:06:47 you know,

01:06:47 --> 01:06:49 you can to a degree sympathize with,

01:06:50 --> 01:06:50 you know,

01:06:50 --> 01:06:52 those who feel like they just have no recourse.

01:06:53 --> 01:06:54 They are they're being gunned down,

01:06:55 --> 01:06:55 you know,

01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 and there's really nothing that they can do about it because

01:06:58 --> 01:06:59 this this other person,

01:06:59 --> 01:06:59 you know,

01:06:59 --> 01:07:01 has decided so and they have the power.

01:07:02 --> 01:07:02 So,

01:07:02 --> 01:07:02 again,

01:07:02 --> 01:07:03 that's not saying that it's good or right,

01:07:04 --> 01:07:04 but that,

01:07:04 --> 01:07:05 you know,

01:07:05 --> 01:07:06 this is where things come from.

01:07:06 --> 01:07:07 And so,

01:07:07 --> 01:07:08 you know,

01:07:08 --> 01:07:11 ignoring the issue like that's not going to solve anything.

01:07:11 --> 01:07:12 That only makes things worse.

01:07:12 --> 01:07:15 Instead, we need to we do need to acknowledge it.

01:07:15 --> 01:07:17 We need we do need to, you know, have.

01:07:18 --> 01:07:18 And again,

01:07:18 --> 01:07:18 I know,

01:07:19 --> 01:07:19 you know,

01:07:19 --> 01:07:20 the word discussion,

01:07:20 --> 01:07:21 we need to have a discussion,

01:07:21 --> 01:07:23 but we need to not just end with a discussion.

01:07:23 --> 01:07:24 It's not just about discussion.

01:07:24 --> 01:07:28 It's about, you know, what kind of helpful steps can we be supportive of?

01:07:29 --> 01:07:32 you know and you mentioned kind of well you know black people

01:07:32 --> 01:07:33 aren't the only

01:07:33 --> 01:07:36 people who suffer from police violence and that's true and

01:07:36 --> 01:07:37 what's interesting and i

01:07:37 --> 01:07:40 totally agree with what you said it's like well why not why

01:07:40 --> 01:07:41 shouldn't there be even

01:07:41 --> 01:07:44 more of a reason to find a solution then right you know and and

01:07:44 --> 01:07:45 some of the some of

01:07:45 --> 01:07:47 the things that you know many of those who are protesting now

01:07:48 --> 01:07:49 are proposing are

01:07:49 --> 01:07:54 really just good healthy common sense measures on kind of you know

01:07:55 --> 01:07:56 Making sure that,

01:07:56 --> 01:07:56 you know,

01:07:56 --> 01:07:58 violence isn't overused,

01:07:58 --> 01:07:59 that there's accountability.

01:08:00 --> 01:08:02 I'm referring specifically to the issue of,

01:08:02 --> 01:08:02 you know,

01:08:03 --> 01:08:05 law enforcement by police police right now.

01:08:05 --> 01:08:05 Yeah.

01:08:06 --> 01:08:06 You know,

01:08:06 --> 01:08:07 so why would I mean,

01:08:07 --> 01:08:08 you know,

01:08:08 --> 01:08:09 although it's less likely,

01:08:09 --> 01:08:12 I also don't want to be shot while I'm unarmed by a police officer.

01:08:13 --> 01:08:14 Why would I not support that?

01:08:14 --> 01:08:17 You know, just doesn't doesn't make a lot of sense.

01:08:17 --> 01:08:21 So let's talk a minute about the idea of racism in the heart.

01:08:22 --> 01:08:25 Why do you think so many people are violently opposed to that

01:08:25 --> 01:08:25 notion that there

01:08:26 --> 01:08:28 might be some racism in their hearts?

01:08:28 --> 01:08:32 Like the way I see people react to the suggestion,

01:08:32 --> 01:08:35 just the mere suggestion that there might be racism in their hearts.

01:08:36 --> 01:08:39 It's almost like you suggested that there might be something as

01:08:39 --> 01:08:40 evil as the

01:08:40 --> 01:08:42 temptation to become a serial killer in their heart.

01:08:42 --> 01:08:44 That's how strongly people react to it.

01:08:44 --> 01:08:48 They're like, oh man, like, no, like no way I could never.

01:08:50 --> 01:08:52 That's not really how people react to most sins.

01:08:52 --> 01:08:57 Like if you talk about dishonesty or lust or bad attitudes or

01:08:57 --> 01:08:58 anger or jealousy,

01:08:58 --> 01:09:00 most people in church just nod their heads and go,

01:09:00 --> 01:09:01 yeah,

01:09:01 --> 01:09:01 you know,

01:09:01 --> 01:09:02 I struggle with that.

01:09:02 --> 01:09:03 It's good to bring this up,

01:09:03 --> 01:09:06 but if you suggest racism,

01:09:06 --> 01:09:08 people become very opposed to that.

01:09:09 --> 01:09:10 Why do you think that is?

01:09:10 --> 01:09:13 And what can we as leaders and pastors do to help people see

01:09:13 --> 01:09:14 that this is actually

01:09:14 --> 01:09:17 a problem and to encourage people to humble their hearts and

01:09:17 --> 01:09:18 examine their own

01:09:18 --> 01:09:20 hearts when it comes to racism?

01:09:20 --> 01:09:23 So this goes back to something I was mentioning a little earlier.

01:09:24 --> 01:09:27 You know, you talked about Christians usually have no problems.

01:09:27 --> 01:09:31 I struggle with lust, you know, yeah, I struggle with anger.

01:09:31 --> 01:09:33 And I think that part of that,

01:09:33 --> 01:09:33 again,

01:09:33 --> 01:09:35 is because within the culture,

01:09:36 --> 01:09:36 you know,

01:09:36 --> 01:09:37 overall,

01:09:37 --> 01:09:40 like the culture doesn't even care if you lust like it's like,

01:09:40 --> 01:09:40 yeah,

01:09:40 --> 01:09:41 go for it,

01:09:41 --> 01:09:41 you know.

01:09:42 --> 01:09:44 You know, sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want.

01:09:44 --> 01:09:50 And so the only, I guess, put it in a way that I think makes sense.

01:09:51 --> 01:09:56 It seems to me like we care more about the opinion of people

01:09:56 --> 01:09:57 around us than we do

01:09:57 --> 01:09:58 about the opinion of God.

01:09:59 --> 01:10:05 And I think that it's not so much that we are overselling racism.

01:10:05 --> 01:10:06 It's like, oh my gosh, this is so horrible.

01:10:06 --> 01:10:06 Well,

01:10:06 --> 01:10:07 yeah,

01:10:07 --> 01:10:08 it is so horrible,

01:10:08 --> 01:10:10 but that we're underselling the other sins probably,

01:10:10 --> 01:10:11 right?

01:10:11 --> 01:10:11 That,

01:10:12 --> 01:10:12 you know,

01:10:12 --> 01:10:14 lust and greed and just,

01:10:14 --> 01:10:15 you know,

01:10:16 --> 01:10:18 and malice are also horrid things.

01:10:19 --> 01:10:21 And then the other side of that,

01:10:21 --> 01:10:21 I would say,

01:10:22 --> 01:10:26 is the reason that I think probably people react in the way

01:10:26 --> 01:10:27 that they do is because

01:10:27 --> 01:10:29 they can't come to grips with,

01:10:29 --> 01:10:29 you know,

01:10:29 --> 01:10:30 wow,

01:10:30 --> 01:10:31 I'm actually this bad.

01:10:32 --> 01:10:34 And the reason that we can't come to grips with that is because

01:10:34 --> 01:10:36 we have a very anemic gospel.

01:10:37 --> 01:10:38 Too many Christians,

01:10:38 --> 01:10:38 I think,

01:10:38 --> 01:10:40 see the gospel as like,

01:10:40 --> 01:10:40 oh,

01:10:40 --> 01:10:40 well,

01:10:40 --> 01:10:40 you know,

01:10:41 --> 01:10:41 yeah,

01:10:41 --> 01:10:41 I'm a sinner.

01:10:42 --> 01:10:45 Yeah, God forgave me, you know, kind of that was a great push start.

01:10:45 --> 01:10:46 And now I got to do real good,

01:10:47 --> 01:10:47 you know,

01:10:47 --> 01:10:49 and then and then God will stay happy with

01:10:49 --> 01:10:49 me.

01:10:50 --> 01:10:50 Well,

01:10:50 --> 01:10:51 if that's your gospel,

01:10:51 --> 01:10:53 then no wonder that you're freaking out,

01:10:53 --> 01:10:56 even thinking about the possibility that you might have this

01:10:56 --> 01:10:57 horrible sin in your heart.

01:10:58 --> 01:11:01 But the reality is that all of your sins are that horrible and

01:11:01 --> 01:11:02 way more horrible

01:11:02 --> 01:11:03 than we even know.

01:11:04 --> 01:11:06 And yet Christ took them on himself.

01:11:06 --> 01:11:09 He took, you know, that wrath upon himself.

01:11:09 --> 01:11:11 He took our shame upon himself.

01:11:12 --> 01:11:15 And when the Father looks at us, he sees Jesus.

01:11:15 --> 01:11:17 He sees Jesus as righteousness.

01:11:18 --> 01:11:21 he's pleased with us as he is with his own son and when you

01:11:22 --> 01:11:23 understand that then

01:11:23 --> 01:11:27 you can you can acknowledge on the one hand the depth and the

01:11:27 --> 01:11:28 horror of your

01:11:28 --> 01:11:33 sinfulness without despairing and you can rejoice that you know

01:11:33 --> 01:11:34 even with that

01:11:34 --> 01:11:39 level of of sin christ loves me christ sees me as as perfect

01:11:39 --> 01:11:40 and beautiful because

01:11:40 --> 01:11:41 of his grace

01:11:42 --> 01:11:42 So I think really,

01:11:43 --> 01:11:43 you know,

01:11:43 --> 01:11:44 it's like I said,

01:11:44 --> 01:11:45 you know,

01:11:45 --> 01:11:48 how can the heart change?

01:11:48 --> 01:11:50 And I did note this in our second article,

01:11:50 --> 01:11:51 that's only through the gospel.

01:11:51 --> 01:11:54 You know, we can talk about making a stand in society.

01:11:54 --> 01:11:54 And yes,

01:11:54 --> 01:11:55 we should promote,

01:11:56 --> 01:11:56 you know,

01:11:56 --> 01:11:59 policies and stances that,

01:11:59 --> 01:11:59 you know,

01:11:59 --> 01:12:02 are aligned with this biblical value of,

01:12:02 --> 01:12:03 you know,

01:12:03 --> 01:12:04 all people being God's image,

01:12:05 --> 01:12:05 you know,

01:12:05 --> 01:12:06 love for neighbor,

01:12:06 --> 01:12:09 compassion for the oppressed and all these things.

01:12:09 --> 01:12:10 But at the end of the day,

01:12:10 --> 01:12:12 the only thing that's going to change people on a heart level

01:12:12 --> 01:12:13 is the gospel itself.

01:12:14 --> 01:12:15 And that's that's really good.

01:12:15 --> 01:12:20 Can I can I ask a personal question of you as a white Christian

01:12:20 --> 01:12:21 born in America and

01:12:21 --> 01:12:22 now a missionary to the Ukraine?

01:12:23 --> 01:12:27 Where have you seen and acknowledged racism in your own heart?

01:12:27 --> 01:12:30 And how did you get to the point where you were able to

01:12:30 --> 01:12:31 actually acknowledge it?

01:12:31 --> 01:12:33 That's a really good question.

01:12:33 --> 01:12:35 And I was kind of waiting for you to ask me that.

01:12:35 --> 01:12:35 I'm like,

01:12:35 --> 01:12:38 I wonder what he's going to ask me how I've done this in my own heart.

01:12:39 --> 01:12:39 You know,

01:12:39 --> 01:12:40 like I said,

01:12:40 --> 01:12:40 you know,

01:12:40 --> 01:12:43 I've lived my entire adult life in Ukraine.

01:12:43 --> 01:12:43 And we actually,

01:12:43 --> 01:12:46 I actually just recently preached on,

01:12:46 --> 01:12:47 we're going through Ephesians,

01:12:47 --> 01:12:48 we were in chapter two,

01:12:48 --> 01:12:50 kind of Paul talks about God,

01:12:50 --> 01:12:50 you know,

01:12:50 --> 01:12:52 reconciling Jews and Gentiles,

01:12:52 --> 01:12:53 kind of racial reconciliation,

01:12:53 --> 01:12:54 you know,

01:12:54 --> 01:12:56 so really kind of on this topic.

01:12:56 --> 01:12:58 And we have home groups,

01:12:58 --> 01:13:01 home fellowships that we kind of go through the sermon and

01:13:01 --> 01:13:02 really kind of talk

01:13:02 --> 01:13:04 about how do we apply this to our hearts?

01:13:04 --> 01:13:05 You know,

01:13:05 --> 01:13:05 like I said,

01:13:05 --> 01:13:07 in Ukraine,

01:13:07 --> 01:13:10 there's really only like a handful of Africans and they're mostly,

01:13:10 --> 01:13:11 you know,

01:13:11 --> 01:13:13 students in the various universities here.

01:13:13 --> 01:13:14 You know,

01:13:14 --> 01:13:14 probably,

01:13:14 --> 01:13:15 you know,

01:13:15 --> 01:13:16 for Ukraine,

01:13:16 --> 01:13:21 the group that's looked down on the most is the Romas or Gypsies.

01:13:21 --> 01:13:22 They actually,

01:13:22 --> 01:13:26 there was a recent sociological poll taken among Ukrainians.

01:13:26 --> 01:13:31 And basically it showed that like 40% of the respondents said

01:13:31 --> 01:13:32 that they think that

01:13:32 --> 01:13:34 the Gypsies should be kicked out of the country.

01:13:34 --> 01:13:34 Well,

01:13:34 --> 01:13:36 Like they didn't even want them living here,

01:13:36 --> 01:13:36 you know,

01:13:37 --> 01:13:37 you know,

01:13:37 --> 01:13:38 and I had to check my heart.

01:13:38 --> 01:13:38 Well,

01:13:38 --> 01:13:39 you know,

01:13:39 --> 01:13:42 do I kind of look more suspiciously at somebody when they look

01:13:42 --> 01:13:43 like a gypsy than

01:13:43 --> 01:13:44 when they look like a Ukrainian?

01:13:45 --> 01:13:45 Yeah.

01:13:45 --> 01:13:45 Yeah.

01:13:46 --> 01:13:46 You know,

01:13:46 --> 01:13:48 or like somebody else in our home fellowship,

01:13:48 --> 01:13:48 you know,

01:13:48 --> 01:13:49 said,

01:13:49 --> 01:13:49 well,

01:13:49 --> 01:13:49 yeah,

01:13:49 --> 01:13:49 you know,

01:13:49 --> 01:13:50 I guess I,

01:13:51 --> 01:13:52 now that I stopped to think about it,

01:13:53 --> 01:13:56 I sort of subconsciously almost shift my purse over to the

01:13:56 --> 01:13:57 other side when I see a

01:13:57 --> 01:13:58 gypsy near me,

01:13:58 --> 01:13:59 you know,

01:13:59 --> 01:13:59 and it's,

01:13:59 --> 01:14:00 it's not,

01:14:00 --> 01:14:00 I mean,

01:14:01 --> 01:14:01 you know,

01:14:01 --> 01:14:03 it's one thing if you can tell the person's kind of like,

01:14:03 --> 01:14:04 you know,

01:14:04 --> 01:14:05 a drug addict or whatever,

01:14:05 --> 01:14:07 and they might actually be trying to pick your pocket.

01:14:08 --> 01:14:08 But,

01:14:08 --> 01:14:08 you know,

01:14:08 --> 01:14:10 just because of their ethnicity,

01:14:10 --> 01:14:10 I mean,

01:14:10 --> 01:14:11 that's,

01:14:11 --> 01:14:11 you know,

01:14:11 --> 01:14:12 let's call it what it is.

01:14:12 --> 01:14:13 That's racism.

01:14:13 --> 01:14:16 It doesn't mean you hate the person, but you've got a prejudice.

01:14:16 --> 01:14:18 You're looking down at them, you know.

01:14:18 --> 01:14:18 And so,

01:14:19 --> 01:14:19 you know,

01:14:19 --> 01:14:23 when I see things like that in my heart and it happens,

01:14:23 --> 01:14:24 I have to acknowledge it.

01:14:25 --> 01:14:25 But like I said,

01:14:25 --> 01:14:28 what allows me to acknowledge it is knowing that,

01:14:28 --> 01:14:29 you know,

01:14:29 --> 01:14:29 first of all,

01:14:30 --> 01:14:31 God knows this is there.

01:14:31 --> 01:14:32 It's no surprise to him.

01:14:32 --> 01:14:36 It doesn't shake my standing with him in the slightest.

01:14:37 --> 01:14:37 Yeah.

01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 You know, I'm still loved.

01:14:38 --> 01:14:40 I'm still righteous in Christ.

01:14:40 --> 01:14:42 And it's because of that gospel,

01:14:42 --> 01:14:45 that good news that I can again,

01:14:45 --> 01:14:48 I can I can come and even joyfully in a way repent of.

01:14:49 --> 01:14:52 Like I said earlier in the conversation, we don't repent to be forgiven.

01:14:52 --> 01:14:53 We repent because we're forgiven.

01:14:53 --> 01:14:54 That's good.

01:14:54 --> 01:14:55 If we're Christians.

01:14:55 --> 01:14:57 Man, that's so good.

01:14:58 --> 01:15:01 I think you're highlighting by sharing your story that

01:15:01 --> 01:15:03 prejudice is something that

01:15:03 --> 01:15:06 is kind of a part of our human sin nature,

01:15:06 --> 01:15:07 something that we all deal with.

01:15:07 --> 01:15:07 Yeah.

01:15:08 --> 01:15:09 For me and my story,

01:15:09 --> 01:15:12 I was a youth pastor and let's just take race out of it.

01:15:12 --> 01:15:14 Let's just talk about families.

01:15:14 --> 01:15:15 As a youth pastor,

01:15:15 --> 01:15:19 I remember having one kid who was kind of rambunctious and

01:15:19 --> 01:15:20 really disruptive and

01:15:21 --> 01:15:22 then he graduated out of the group and

01:15:23 --> 01:15:24 When I got his younger brother in the group,

01:15:25 --> 01:15:25 they said,

01:15:25 --> 01:15:26 oh,

01:15:26 --> 01:15:26 you know,

01:15:26 --> 01:15:27 he's the same way.

01:15:27 --> 01:15:29 They were like, he's just like his brother.

01:15:29 --> 01:15:31 He's super rambunctious and crazy.

01:15:32 --> 01:15:32 And so,

01:15:32 --> 01:15:32 you know,

01:15:33 --> 01:15:35 if a third brother were to come along in the group,

01:15:35 --> 01:15:38 I think my natural prejudice would be to think,

01:15:38 --> 01:15:38 oh,

01:15:38 --> 01:15:38 no,

01:15:38 --> 01:15:39 this kid's going to be trouble.

01:15:40 --> 01:15:41 He's going to cause issues,

01:15:41 --> 01:15:42 which I think again,

01:15:42 --> 01:15:42 you know,

01:15:42 --> 01:15:42 it's,

01:15:42 --> 01:15:46 it's a part of human sin nature to be prejudice.

01:15:46 --> 01:15:48 And I don't necessarily know that,

01:15:48 --> 01:15:48 you know,

01:15:48 --> 01:15:49 maybe,

01:15:49 --> 01:15:52 maybe there's some level of pragmatism to thinking that way.

01:15:53 --> 01:15:56 But I think ultimately God would want me to judge everybody

01:15:56 --> 01:15:57 individually and not

01:15:57 --> 01:16:01 come up with these assumptions that affect my behavior towards

01:16:01 --> 01:16:02 somebody because

01:16:02 --> 01:16:04 they share somebody else's genes,

01:16:04 --> 01:16:04 you know?

01:16:04 --> 01:16:07 So, you know, my story when it comes to racism is,

01:16:07 --> 01:16:07 You know,

01:16:08 --> 01:16:08 I grew up in Vista,

01:16:08 --> 01:16:09 California,

01:16:09 --> 01:16:11 which is predominantly white and Hispanic,

01:16:12 --> 01:16:14 but the black population is really only about 1.2%.

01:16:15 --> 01:16:19 So I was hardly around any black people growing up.

01:16:19 --> 01:16:22 And I went to a private Christian school that was probably 99% white.

01:16:24 --> 01:16:28 So my idea of the black experience in America was informed not

01:16:28 --> 01:16:30 by actual living

01:16:30 --> 01:16:33 black people telling me what their experience was,

01:16:33 --> 01:16:34 but it was informed by,

01:16:34 --> 01:16:34 you know,

01:16:34 --> 01:16:36 the story of Martin Luther King Jr.

01:16:36 --> 01:16:39 And what I learned in history class about the civil war and

01:16:39 --> 01:16:40 segregation and the

01:16:40 --> 01:16:41 civil rights movement.

01:16:41 --> 01:16:42 And then,

01:16:42 --> 01:16:42 you know,

01:16:42 --> 01:16:43 movies like remember the Titans,

01:16:43 --> 01:16:45 which is a really,

01:16:45 --> 01:16:48 really good movie that my dad watched with us about 20 million

01:16:48 --> 01:16:50 times when we were a kid.

01:16:50 --> 01:16:51 Have you, have you seen it?

01:16:51 --> 01:16:55 i have seen it yes it's so good it's so good so anyway i won't

01:16:55 --> 01:16:56 argue with you on

01:16:56 --> 01:17:01 that point right so i remember you know remember the titans

01:17:02 --> 01:17:03 giving me this idea of

01:17:03 --> 01:17:07 you know we've overcome this and everything's great now and you

01:17:07 --> 01:17:08 know i was in this

01:17:08 --> 01:17:11 environment that didn't really have any visible racism against

01:17:11 --> 01:17:12 black people and

01:17:12 --> 01:17:15 because of the story of martin luther king jr

01:17:16 --> 01:17:19 I grew up with this idea that racism was solved and it wasn't a

01:17:19 --> 01:17:20 problem anymore.

01:17:20 --> 01:17:22 And then when I was in my late teens,

01:17:22 --> 01:17:26 Obama ran for president and suddenly I became aware very quickly of like,

01:17:27 --> 01:17:27 oh my gosh,

01:17:27 --> 01:17:29 racism is still very much a thing.

01:17:30 --> 01:17:33 And the saddest part of it was my exposure to racism was

01:17:33 --> 01:17:34 through Christians.

01:17:34 --> 01:17:37 It was seeing how many conservative Christians reacted to the

01:17:37 --> 01:17:39 reality of a black president.

01:17:39 --> 01:17:40 And because he was a Democrat,

01:17:40 --> 01:17:44 it seemed to almost give them an excuse for racism.

01:17:45 --> 01:17:46 And I'm being honest here.

01:17:46 --> 01:17:47 I'm not just saying,

01:17:47 --> 01:17:47 oh,

01:17:47 --> 01:17:47 they,

01:17:47 --> 01:17:48 you know,

01:17:48 --> 01:17:50 they disagreed with his political positions.

01:17:50 --> 01:17:51 And I interpreted that as racism.

01:17:52 --> 01:17:52 I'm talking about,

01:17:52 --> 01:17:57 I heard people that I knew in my life say racist things and

01:17:57 --> 01:17:59 racist jokes that

01:17:59 --> 01:18:04 about Obama and use their political opposition to him as sort

01:18:04 --> 01:18:06 of an excuse for their racism.

01:18:07 --> 01:18:09 And that was really troubling for me.

01:18:09 --> 01:18:12 And it made me evaluate others,

01:18:12 --> 01:18:15 but I hadn't even realized my need for self-evaluation.

01:18:16 --> 01:18:16 I grew up,

01:18:17 --> 01:18:17 you know,

01:18:17 --> 01:18:20 in my mind with this idea that there wasn't any racism in me.

01:18:21 --> 01:18:23 And if you had suggested that to me,

01:18:23 --> 01:18:24 you know,

01:18:24 --> 01:18:26 I would have been offended because I viewed myself as somebody

01:18:26 --> 01:18:27 who just loves

01:18:27 --> 01:18:29 everyone equally and didn't have any prejudice.

01:18:30 --> 01:18:33 But then there was a mentor of mine who actually exposed to me

01:18:33 --> 01:18:35 this reality of racism,

01:18:35 --> 01:18:38 not just meaning that you hate another race.

01:18:39 --> 01:18:41 Racism can be the assumptions and prejudices that you

01:18:41 --> 01:18:44 internalize that make you

01:18:44 --> 01:18:46 think about somebody else of a different race a certain way.

01:18:46 --> 01:18:48 And I started thinking about it and I was like, okay,

01:18:49 --> 01:18:49 You know,

01:18:49 --> 01:18:53 when I'm in LA or San Diego downtown and I'm walking the

01:18:53 --> 01:18:54 streets at night with my wife,

01:18:55 --> 01:18:58 if I see a man walking towards us at 10 o'clock at night at a

01:18:58 --> 01:18:59 dark street,

01:19:00 --> 01:19:02 if the man is black,

01:19:02 --> 01:19:06 there's something in me that would actually be more afraid in

01:19:06 --> 01:19:07 that situation than

01:19:07 --> 01:19:08 if the guy was white.

01:19:09 --> 01:19:09 And actually,

01:19:09 --> 01:19:10 to be honest,

01:19:10 --> 01:19:12 the blacker his skin was,

01:19:12 --> 01:19:13 the darker the skin was,

01:19:13 --> 01:19:15 the more afraid I would get.

01:19:15 --> 01:19:17 And so just realizing this,

01:19:17 --> 01:19:17 I was like,

01:19:17 --> 01:19:17 man,

01:19:17 --> 01:19:18 that in my own heart,

01:19:19 --> 01:19:21 that is there a certain type of racism.

01:19:22 --> 01:19:25 That's me judging somebody and making assumptions because of

01:19:25 --> 01:19:26 the color of their skin.

01:19:26 --> 01:19:29 And I'm trying to figure out, you know, where does that come from?

01:19:29 --> 01:19:33 And I started to realize I grew up watching a lot of media that

01:19:33 --> 01:19:34 depicted black

01:19:34 --> 01:19:35 people as gang members and criminals.

01:19:36 --> 01:19:38 And so in my mind,

01:19:38 --> 01:19:39 in my psyche,

01:19:39 --> 01:19:40 when I saw them,

01:19:40 --> 01:19:42 I thought of them in that way.

01:19:42 --> 01:19:42 And,

01:19:43 --> 01:19:43 you know,

01:19:43 --> 01:19:45 I don't think that makes me like this terrible,

01:19:46 --> 01:19:48 hateful white supremacist.

01:19:48 --> 01:19:51 I don't think that really ever affected my kindness towards a

01:19:51 --> 01:19:51 black person.

01:19:52 --> 01:19:56 But I did see that some racism was there and it did influence

01:19:56 --> 01:19:57 some things about me.

01:19:57 --> 01:19:58 And so I don't know.

01:19:58 --> 01:19:59 I mean, does that make sense?

01:19:59 --> 01:20:02 What do you think about the idea of subconscious racism?

01:20:02 --> 01:20:02 bias?

01:20:02 --> 01:20:05 Is that something that Christians should be aware of?

01:20:05 --> 01:20:09 And how can we as leaders call people to examine their own

01:20:09 --> 01:20:11 hearts to fight against that?

01:20:11 --> 01:20:13 Yeah, that's a really great question.

01:20:13 --> 01:20:15 And thanks for sharing kind of your story.

01:20:15 --> 01:20:16 I think that,

01:20:16 --> 01:20:16 I mean,

01:20:16 --> 01:20:17 I think it lines up with,

01:20:17 --> 01:20:18 you know,

01:20:18 --> 01:20:18 again,

01:20:18 --> 01:20:20 this very biblical idea.

01:20:20 --> 01:20:25 David writes in Psalm 19, he says, how can I know all of the sins?

01:20:25 --> 01:20:26 I forget which translation this is.

01:20:27 --> 01:20:27 It's one of the modern ones.

01:20:28 --> 01:20:30 How can I know all the sins lurking in my heart?

01:20:30 --> 01:20:32 Cleanse me from these hidden faults, right?

01:20:33 --> 01:20:33 You know,

01:20:33 --> 01:20:37 so the Bible lays out very clearly that we have sin issues in

01:20:37 --> 01:20:38 our hearts that we

01:20:38 --> 01:20:39 are not even aware of.

01:20:39 --> 01:20:40 Yeah.

01:20:40 --> 01:20:42 And so is there subconscious sin?

01:20:42 --> 01:20:43 Yes, there is.

01:20:43 --> 01:20:43 You know,

01:20:43 --> 01:20:44 has it been,

01:20:44 --> 01:20:45 again,

01:20:45 --> 01:20:46 like we said,

01:20:46 --> 01:20:48 because we're living in a broken world,

01:20:48 --> 01:20:49 in a sinful system,

01:20:49 --> 01:20:49 right?

01:20:49 --> 01:20:50 The world, quote unquote.

01:20:50 --> 01:20:51 Yeah.

01:20:51 --> 01:20:54 You know, these things kind of they get inculcated.

01:20:54 --> 01:20:55 It's in the air we breathe,

01:20:55 --> 01:20:55 you know,

01:20:55 --> 01:20:59 before before we really even kind of make a conscious choice.

01:20:59 --> 01:20:59 And,

01:21:00 --> 01:21:00 you know,

01:21:00 --> 01:21:01 in some cases,

01:21:01 --> 01:21:03 people might not make too much of a conscious choice.

01:21:03 --> 01:21:03 Like you said,

01:21:03 --> 01:21:04 it's not like you were,

01:21:04 --> 01:21:04 you know,

01:21:04 --> 01:21:08 became a member of the Aryan nation and were white supremacists

01:21:08 --> 01:21:08 or something.

01:21:08 --> 01:21:08 Right.

01:21:09 --> 01:21:09 But yet,

01:21:09 --> 01:21:10 nevertheless,

01:21:10 --> 01:21:10 you know,

01:21:10 --> 01:21:11 you at some point,

01:21:11 --> 01:21:12 the Holy Spirit,

01:21:12 --> 01:21:13 you know,

01:21:13 --> 01:21:14 made you conscious,

01:21:14 --> 01:21:16 made you aware of this issue.

01:21:16 --> 01:21:19 And it was it was an area that you needed to repent of.

01:21:19 --> 01:21:20 Right.

01:21:20 --> 01:21:23 And the truth is, we all have these areas and it's not just in racism.

01:21:23 --> 01:21:24 It's in a lot of things.

01:21:25 --> 01:21:26 But at the moment, we're talking about racism.

01:21:27 --> 01:21:30 and that's sort of the thing is that you know we we shouldn't

01:21:30 --> 01:21:31 you know kind of

01:21:31 --> 01:21:35 treat this sin entirely differently than other sins right yeah

01:21:36 --> 01:21:37 so you know do i

01:21:37 --> 01:21:40 have areas of greed i mean you know try asking a person if

01:21:40 --> 01:21:41 they're greedy and this

01:21:41 --> 01:21:45 is this is kind of the analogy this is the analogy i used in my

01:21:45 --> 01:21:45 first article right

01:21:45 --> 01:21:48 it's like well i'm not greedy i just want a little more you

01:21:48 --> 01:21:50 know which was you know

01:21:50 --> 01:21:52 rockefeller's famous statement supposedly they interviewed him

01:21:52 --> 01:21:53 and asked you know

01:21:53 --> 01:21:55 richest guy on the planet in the history of the earth

01:21:56 --> 01:21:58 How much money does a person need to be happy?

01:21:58 --> 01:22:00 Well, a little bit more, you know.

01:22:00 --> 01:22:04 None of us thinks we're greedy, but the truth is we probably are.

01:22:05 --> 01:22:09 But we live in a culture that promotes greed and consumerism,

01:22:09 --> 01:22:09 you know,

01:22:10 --> 01:22:14 and so if we're actually sensitive to where God is convicting

01:22:14 --> 01:22:15 us of those things,

01:22:15 --> 01:22:16 then we need to say,

01:22:17 --> 01:22:17 you know,

01:22:17 --> 01:22:17 Lord,

01:22:17 --> 01:22:18 where is it?

01:22:18 --> 01:22:20 You know, cleanse me of my hidden faults.

01:22:20 --> 01:22:24 Show me, you know, these sins that are lurking in my heart.

01:22:24 --> 01:22:24 Again,

01:22:24 --> 01:22:28 not so that we can engage in self-flagellation and not because

01:22:28 --> 01:22:29 we're not forgiven,

01:22:29 --> 01:22:30 but because we are forgiven,

01:22:30 --> 01:22:31 because,

01:22:31 --> 01:22:32 you know,

01:22:32 --> 01:22:35 we're kids of the Lord,

01:22:35 --> 01:22:35 you know,

01:22:35 --> 01:22:36 we're his children,

01:22:36 --> 01:22:37 you know,

01:22:37 --> 01:22:39 and we want to enjoy him more.

01:22:39 --> 01:22:41 We want to honor him with our whole lives.

01:22:42 --> 01:22:43 And so this is that process,

01:22:43 --> 01:22:43 again,

01:22:43 --> 01:22:45 going back to what Paul said that,

01:22:45 --> 01:22:45 you know,

01:22:45 --> 01:22:46 I haven't attained yet.

01:22:46 --> 01:22:47 I'm not perfect.

01:22:47 --> 01:22:49 You know, I've still got plenty of areas.

01:22:49 --> 01:22:50 And in fact,

01:22:50 --> 01:22:52 if I can digress on this just for a second,

01:22:53 --> 01:22:53 you know,

01:22:53 --> 01:22:55 Paul kind of in one of his earlier letters,

01:22:55 --> 01:22:56 he says,

01:22:56 --> 01:22:56 you know,

01:22:56 --> 01:22:56 well,

01:22:56 --> 01:22:57 I'm the least of the apostles.

01:22:57 --> 01:22:59 And you're like, OK, Paul, but you're still an apostle.

01:23:00 --> 01:23:00 So that's pretty cool.

01:23:01 --> 01:23:01 You know,

01:23:01 --> 01:23:03 and then in a later epistle,

01:23:03 --> 01:23:03 you know,

01:23:03 --> 01:23:03 he says,

01:23:03 --> 01:23:05 I'm the least of all the saints of all the Christians.

01:23:06 --> 01:23:08 And you're like, OK, that sounds humble.

01:23:09 --> 01:23:09 You know,

01:23:09 --> 01:23:10 and then towards the end of his life,

01:23:10 --> 01:23:12 he's writing to Timothy and he says,

01:23:12 --> 01:23:13 I'm the chief of all sinners.

01:23:14 --> 01:23:16 you're like hold on paul what's going on like like are you

01:23:16 --> 01:23:18 getting worse and of

01:23:18 --> 01:23:21 course he wasn't getting worse what was happening is that the

01:23:22 --> 01:23:23 more we see our

01:23:23 --> 01:23:27 sinfulness that's a mark of christian sanctification you know

01:23:27 --> 01:23:28 but at the same time

01:23:28 --> 01:23:32 he didn't despair because that allowed him to appreciate the

01:23:32 --> 01:23:33 depth of god's grace

01:23:33 --> 01:23:37 even more yeah so again as we kind of you know we shouldn't be

01:23:37 --> 01:23:38 afraid again in

01:23:38 --> 01:23:42 light of the gospel we christians we're the ones that can be bold

01:23:43 --> 01:23:46 in saying you know i have areas of racism in my heart you know

01:23:47 --> 01:23:48 i i want to grow

01:23:48 --> 01:23:51 from it you know because we have we have the answer to that

01:23:52 --> 01:23:53 yeah so that's really

01:23:53 --> 01:23:59 good so at times when people talk about systemic racism it can

01:23:59 --> 01:24:01 cause a really

01:24:01 --> 01:24:05 defensive and kind of a you know freak out reaction from people

01:24:05 --> 01:24:05 when you use that

01:24:05 --> 01:24:08 word systemic because it's like oh my gosh like

01:24:08 --> 01:24:11 You're you're calling the entire system,

01:24:11 --> 01:24:12 the entire country,

01:24:13 --> 01:24:16 even like the entire Constitution racist.

01:24:17 --> 01:24:17 Right.

01:24:18 --> 01:24:18 I mean,

01:24:18 --> 01:24:18 you know,

01:24:19 --> 01:24:20 if we're talking the original Constitution,

01:24:20 --> 01:24:21 I mean,

01:24:21 --> 01:24:23 it says that black people are three fifths of a human.

01:24:23 --> 01:24:24 So was it racist?

01:24:24 --> 01:24:25 Yes.

01:24:25 --> 01:24:25 Sorry.

01:24:25 --> 01:24:26 That part was.

01:24:27 --> 01:24:28 Now, that doesn't mean the whole thing.

01:24:30 --> 01:24:31 That's up to you.

01:24:31 --> 01:24:34 But that does not mean that the whole thing is worthless.

01:24:34 --> 01:24:34 Right.

01:24:34 --> 01:24:38 That does not mean that none of the things that were enshrined,

01:24:38 --> 01:24:38 you know,

01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 in the Declaration of Independence in the Constitution were

01:24:43 --> 01:24:44 somehow worthless.

01:24:44 --> 01:24:44 Of course not.

01:24:45 --> 01:24:49 What it shows simply is that there was a serious inconsistency.

01:24:50 --> 01:24:51 The Declaration of Independence says,

01:24:51 --> 01:24:51 right,

01:24:51 --> 01:24:53 that all men were created equal.

01:24:53 --> 01:24:53 Yeah.

01:24:54 --> 01:24:54 Right.

01:24:54 --> 01:24:55 So, I mean, it's like, wait a minute.

01:24:55 --> 01:24:57 They were all created equal.

01:24:57 --> 01:24:58 But then,

01:24:58 --> 01:24:58 you know,

01:24:58 --> 01:24:59 a few lines down,

01:24:59 --> 01:24:59 you're like,

01:24:59 --> 01:25:00 well,

01:25:00 --> 01:25:02 except for black people were three fifths of a person.

01:25:02 --> 01:25:06 It's an uncomfortable part of our past that we have to grapple with.

01:25:06 --> 01:25:08 So in talking about systemic racism,

01:25:08 --> 01:25:12 there's this opposition to talking about the word systemic.

01:25:12 --> 01:25:16 And what I find is interesting is we as Christians have been

01:25:16 --> 01:25:17 talking about systemic

01:25:17 --> 01:25:19 injustice for years and in other ways,

01:25:20 --> 01:25:20 for instance,

01:25:20 --> 01:25:21 abortion.

01:25:21 --> 01:25:22 That's something we would say.

01:25:22 --> 01:25:27 This is injustice against the unborn at a systemic level.

01:25:27 --> 01:25:28 The government supports it.

01:25:28 --> 01:25:30 The media supports it, right?

01:25:30 --> 01:25:34 I mean, there's a system and it's broken and it supports abortion.

01:25:34 --> 01:25:37 Another thing would be, you know, church persecution.

01:25:37 --> 01:25:37 You know,

01:25:37 --> 01:25:38 we in the American church,

01:25:38 --> 01:25:38 you know,

01:25:39 --> 01:25:42 unfortunately at times have called many things persecution that

01:25:42 --> 01:25:42 really aren't

01:25:43 --> 01:25:45 persecution when you compare it to what's going on to

01:25:45 --> 01:25:47 missionaries and other countries.

01:25:47 --> 01:25:51 I see all the time American Christians have this perception

01:25:51 --> 01:25:53 that there is systemic

01:25:53 --> 01:25:55 injustice happening against Christians.

01:25:56 --> 01:25:56 It's the system.

01:25:56 --> 01:25:58 It's the media out to get Christians.

01:25:58 --> 01:25:59 It's the government out to get Christians.

01:26:00 --> 01:26:01 It's the way that we talk.

01:26:01 --> 01:26:05 So we've been talking about systemic injustice for years,

01:26:05 --> 01:26:08 and it's crazy to me that we're so closed off to the idea that

01:26:08 --> 01:26:09 it could be

01:26:09 --> 01:26:10 happening to black people.

01:26:11 --> 01:26:13 When it's exactly as you said,

01:26:13 --> 01:26:16 the first so many hundred years of our country's history,

01:26:17 --> 01:26:18 systemic injustice played a role.

01:26:18 --> 01:26:21 We enslaved a group of people

01:26:21 --> 01:26:24 And built the country on their backs.

01:26:24 --> 01:26:24 So,

01:26:25 --> 01:26:25 you know,

01:26:25 --> 01:26:28 it's just bizarre to me that at this point,

01:26:28 --> 01:26:28 we're like,

01:26:29 --> 01:26:29 oh,

01:26:29 --> 01:26:29 no,

01:26:29 --> 01:26:30 it's gone.

01:26:30 --> 01:26:31 It's gone forever.

01:26:32 --> 01:26:33 Racism, not a problem.

01:26:33 --> 01:26:35 It's just, it's gone.

01:26:35 --> 01:26:38 Systemic injustice exists in other places like abortion and

01:26:39 --> 01:26:40 Christian persecution,

01:26:40 --> 01:26:42 but it's completely gone when it comes to racism.

01:26:43 --> 01:26:46 I'm not saying the entire system is racist or broken, but

01:26:46 --> 01:26:50 I'm just saying it's bizarre to me that we are content to

01:26:50 --> 01:26:51 assume that it's just

01:26:51 --> 01:26:54 non-existent at this moment in any way,

01:26:54 --> 01:26:55 shape or form.

01:26:55 --> 01:26:55 Well,

01:26:55 --> 01:26:56 I would say that,

01:26:56 --> 01:26:56 that,

01:26:56 --> 01:26:56 I mean,

01:26:56 --> 01:26:58 to kind of compare it with abortion,

01:26:58 --> 01:26:58 right?

01:26:58 --> 01:27:01 You know, so, so abortion is legal and, you know,

01:27:01 --> 01:27:05 and and while people are happy to maybe admit that this is a

01:27:05 --> 01:27:06 systemic problem you

01:27:07 --> 01:27:11 know perhaps again maybe maybe not but perhaps for some they

01:27:11 --> 01:27:11 would say well if we

01:27:11 --> 01:27:15 could get abortion banned you know kind of across the board

01:27:15 --> 01:27:17 right all cases then it

01:27:17 --> 01:27:20 would no longer be a systemic problem well you know let's let's

01:27:20 --> 01:27:21 assume you know if

01:27:21 --> 01:27:24 that were ever to happen what if what if you know okay let's

01:27:24 --> 01:27:25 say officially it got

01:27:25 --> 01:27:29 banned but but you know media or parts of the media went on

01:27:30 --> 01:27:32 You know, acting or talking like it was a positive thing.

01:27:32 --> 01:27:34 What if, you know, what would happen?

01:27:34 --> 01:27:35 Maybe, maybe.

01:27:36 --> 01:27:36 Exactly.

01:27:36 --> 01:27:38 Maybe not directly legal things,

01:27:38 --> 01:27:39 but there would be sort of,

01:27:40 --> 01:27:40 you know,

01:27:40 --> 01:27:43 secondary things that could be used that would,

01:27:43 --> 01:27:43 you know,

01:27:44 --> 01:27:46 maybe maybe certain drugs that would would have,

01:27:46 --> 01:27:46 you know,

01:27:46 --> 01:27:48 potential strong side effects.

01:27:49 --> 01:27:50 of causing an abortion,

01:27:50 --> 01:27:50 you know,

01:27:51 --> 01:27:54 and you'd get people prescribing them to women who in reality

01:27:54 --> 01:27:55 actually wanted the abortion,

01:27:56 --> 01:27:58 but that's not why they're being prescribed and so therefore

01:27:58 --> 01:27:58 it's still happening

01:27:58 --> 01:27:59 even though it's not legal.

01:28:00 --> 01:28:01 This is the thing is that,

01:28:01 --> 01:28:01 you know,

01:28:01 --> 01:28:02 when we talk about systemic,

01:28:03 --> 01:28:04 is legislation a big part of that?

01:28:04 --> 01:28:05 Yes.

01:28:05 --> 01:28:06 But is it the only part of it?

01:28:07 --> 01:28:07 No.

01:28:07 --> 01:28:09 And there are also secondary,

01:28:09 --> 01:28:10 you know,

01:28:10 --> 01:28:12 let's say policies that can be enacted,

01:28:12 --> 01:28:14 which on the surface,

01:28:14 --> 01:28:15 it doesn't look like they're saying,

01:28:15 --> 01:28:15 you know,

01:28:16 --> 01:28:17 we're continuing legal abortion or,

01:28:18 --> 01:28:18 you know,

01:28:18 --> 01:28:20 we're continuing slavery or,

01:28:21 --> 01:28:21 you know,

01:28:21 --> 01:28:22 Jim Crow laws,

01:28:23 --> 01:28:23 you know,

01:28:23 --> 01:28:24 but in reality,

01:28:24 --> 01:28:24 in effect,

01:28:24 --> 01:28:26 that's what's happening.

01:28:26 --> 01:28:26 You know,

01:28:26 --> 01:28:29 and I'm thinking of an example as far as the racism issue,

01:28:29 --> 01:28:29 you know,

01:28:29 --> 01:28:32 redlining of housing districts where there were certain

01:28:32 --> 01:28:33 districts where you could

01:28:33 --> 01:28:33 not

01:28:34 --> 01:28:35 get a loan to buy a house.

01:28:36 --> 01:28:38 And it was targeted specifically at African-Americans.

01:28:38 --> 01:28:38 Yep.

01:28:39 --> 01:28:42 You know, and so officially, are they oppressing the black people?

01:28:42 --> 01:28:42 No.

01:28:42 --> 01:28:44 But is it that actually what's happening?

01:28:44 --> 01:28:44 Yes.

01:28:45 --> 01:28:45 Yeah.

01:28:45 --> 01:28:47 And so that's why when we talk about systemic,

01:28:48 --> 01:28:48 yes,

01:28:48 --> 01:28:49 we should look at legislation,

01:28:49 --> 01:28:54 but we should also look at secondary policies that have the same effect.

01:28:54 --> 01:28:56 We should look at maybe even,

01:28:56 --> 01:28:56 you know,

01:28:56 --> 01:28:58 kind of policies on the level of,

01:28:58 --> 01:28:59 say,

01:28:59 --> 01:28:59 you know,

01:28:59 --> 01:29:00 a corporation,

01:29:00 --> 01:29:01 how they treat people,

01:29:01 --> 01:29:02 things like that.

01:29:02 --> 01:29:04 Yeah, it's a good way of looking at it.

01:29:04 --> 01:29:05 And I would agree with that.

01:29:05 --> 01:29:07 I think with systemic issues to me,

01:29:08 --> 01:29:12 I feel like we just need to be intellectually honest about it.

01:29:12 --> 01:29:16 And I feel like when we're living in this age of political punditry,

01:29:16 --> 01:29:19 it's almost like whoever can quote the most statistics is the

01:29:19 --> 01:29:20 one who wins,

01:29:20 --> 01:29:21 or at least in their minds,

01:29:21 --> 01:29:23 they win the argument.

01:29:23 --> 01:29:24 And it's all about winning.

01:29:24 --> 01:29:25 It's all about winning the debate.

01:29:25 --> 01:29:27 And it's not actually about doing anything.

01:29:28 --> 01:29:28 You know,

01:29:28 --> 01:29:29 I think,

01:29:29 --> 01:29:30 for instance,

01:29:30 --> 01:29:31 one thing I've seen from a guy like,

01:29:31 --> 01:29:32 let's say,

01:29:32 --> 01:29:32 Ben Shapiro,

01:29:32 --> 01:29:33 for example,

01:29:34 --> 01:29:36 he's put out some videos where he'll say everyone's saying

01:29:36 --> 01:29:38 systemic racism is a problem.

01:29:38 --> 01:29:42 But if you look at this statistic and this statistic and this statistic,

01:29:42 --> 01:29:45 it's actually not as much of a problem as they're saying it is.

01:29:45 --> 01:29:46 And so therefore,

01:29:46 --> 01:29:49 his conclusion is kind of we should just not worry about it

01:29:49 --> 01:29:50 because that's not as

01:29:50 --> 01:29:51 bad as the left wing media.

01:29:51 --> 01:29:52 says it is.

01:29:52 --> 01:29:56 Like I heard him basically in a video saying the percentage of

01:29:56 --> 01:29:56 black people

01:29:56 --> 01:29:58 affected by this is small.

01:29:58 --> 01:30:00 And so why are they complaining?

01:30:00 --> 01:30:02 Why are they protesting?

01:30:02 --> 01:30:03 That's his logic, right?

01:30:03 --> 01:30:05 It's this small percentage.

01:30:05 --> 01:30:07 And so why should people complain?

01:30:08 --> 01:30:09 And this is where my mind went with it.

01:30:09 --> 01:30:10 I just thought,

01:30:10 --> 01:30:10 okay,

01:30:10 --> 01:30:11 well,

01:30:11 --> 01:30:16 let's take the same logic and apply it to like sex abuse in the church.

01:30:16 --> 01:30:19 Like for me as a pastor, I'm appalled by that.

01:30:19 --> 01:30:21 I was reading statistics about,

01:30:21 --> 01:30:22 you know,

01:30:22 --> 01:30:26 there was this one denomination and it was talking about how

01:30:26 --> 01:30:27 many people have been

01:30:27 --> 01:30:30 abused by either pastors or volunteers in that denomination.

01:30:31 --> 01:30:33 And this is a big denomination, right?

01:30:33 --> 01:30:33 Yeah.

01:30:33 --> 01:30:36 And I was looking at the numbers of how many reports came in.

01:30:36 --> 01:30:39 And just as an experiment,

01:30:39 --> 01:30:43 I ran the numbers of how many people had claimed that they had

01:30:43 --> 01:30:44 been abused by

01:30:44 --> 01:30:47 pastors or volunteers in their church's denomination.

01:30:48 --> 01:30:49 I was looking at the denomination,

01:30:49 --> 01:30:49 I was like,

01:30:49 --> 01:30:50 okay,

01:30:50 --> 01:30:53 there's this many number of churches in the United States of

01:30:53 --> 01:30:53 this denomination.

01:30:54 --> 01:30:57 And then I took the amount of abuse cases that had been reported

01:30:57 --> 01:31:00 And I did some math on it and it came out to basically like,

01:31:00 --> 01:31:02 you know,

01:31:02 --> 01:31:05 1.5% of pastors have been abusive.

01:31:05 --> 01:31:09 It was like 700 of them in the denomination over the past 20 years.

01:31:10 --> 01:31:14 And between the 700 pastors and volunteers,

01:31:14 --> 01:31:17 there was about twice as many victims as that throughout all of them.

01:31:18 --> 01:31:20 And I was looking at that number again, and it was like 1.5%.

01:31:20 --> 01:31:24 And you could say like, okay, 1.5%.

01:31:24 --> 01:31:26 That's not really that big a deal.

01:31:27 --> 01:31:28 But it is.

01:31:28 --> 01:31:29 To me, it is.

01:31:29 --> 01:31:31 That's a big deal for me as a pastor.

01:31:31 --> 01:31:34 I look at the sex abuse in the church,

01:31:34 --> 01:31:34 and I'm like,

01:31:35 --> 01:31:35 okay,

01:31:35 --> 01:31:36 the number says 1.5%.

01:31:37 --> 01:31:38 But I'm still heartbroken by that.

01:31:39 --> 01:31:42 I'm still horrified that this is happening to people at a systemic level.

01:31:43 --> 01:31:46 I'm not saying that the entire denomination is broken.

01:31:47 --> 01:31:47 Obviously,

01:31:47 --> 01:31:49 that's a pretty small number of people,

01:31:49 --> 01:31:52 but it's happening enough that it's hurting people and there's

01:31:52 --> 01:31:53 people getting away

01:31:53 --> 01:31:54 with it for years and not getting caught.

01:31:55 --> 01:31:56 To me as a pastor,

01:31:56 --> 01:31:57 I'm like,

01:31:57 --> 01:32:01 I want to know what can we do to make this better?

01:32:01 --> 01:32:01 You know,

01:32:02 --> 01:32:03 I'm looking at that denomination,

01:32:03 --> 01:32:04 but then I'm asking for,

01:32:04 --> 01:32:04 you know,

01:32:04 --> 01:32:06 for even my own denomination.

01:32:06 --> 01:32:06 Like,

01:32:06 --> 01:32:08 I want to know for my own church movement,

01:32:09 --> 01:32:13 what can we learn from this study and how can we grow and make

01:32:13 --> 01:32:13 sure this doesn't

01:32:13 --> 01:32:14 happen to our people?

01:32:14 --> 01:32:16 I don't want to just say, ah, you know, it's just 1.5%.

01:32:16 --> 01:32:16 So who the heck cares?

01:32:16 --> 01:32:17 But

01:32:19 --> 01:32:21 But I feel like that's the attitude people are taking with

01:32:21 --> 01:32:23 their statistics or with

01:32:23 --> 01:32:24 their statistical analysis.

01:32:25 --> 01:32:25 They're saying,

01:32:26 --> 01:32:26 well,

01:32:26 --> 01:32:29 you really shouldn't be complaining because the number isn't as

01:32:29 --> 01:32:30 big as you actually

01:32:30 --> 01:32:30 think it is.

01:32:31 --> 01:32:31 But to me,

01:32:31 --> 01:32:33 it's like if that number exists at all,

01:32:34 --> 01:32:36 we should be talking about it and thinking about it and

01:32:36 --> 01:32:36 fighting against it.

01:32:37 --> 01:32:37 Right.

01:32:37 --> 01:32:41 i mean i think i think there's two things happening here one

01:32:41 --> 01:32:41 like i mentioned

01:32:41 --> 01:32:45 earlier is that some of those who would want to deny issues of

01:32:45 --> 01:32:46 systemic racism are

01:32:47 --> 01:32:50 cherry picking some of their statistics and you mentioned ben

01:32:50 --> 01:32:51 shapiro that's that's

01:32:51 --> 01:32:55 actually one one example you know where if you actually dig a

01:32:55 --> 01:32:56 little bit deeper

01:32:57 --> 01:32:59 into the ways that some of these numbers are presented they

01:32:59 --> 01:33:00 don't necessarily

01:33:00 --> 01:33:01 reflect an accurate picture

01:33:02 --> 01:33:03 But but secondly,

01:33:03 --> 01:33:04 you know,

01:33:04 --> 01:33:05 you're right that,

01:33:05 --> 01:33:05 you know,

01:33:05 --> 01:33:06 it doesn't it doesn't matter.

01:33:06 --> 01:33:07 It's not it's not,

01:33:07 --> 01:33:08 you know,

01:33:08 --> 01:33:11 however many number of cases per,

01:33:11 --> 01:33:11 you know,

01:33:11 --> 01:33:11 I don't know,

01:33:12 --> 01:33:13 per thousand or hundred thousand people.

01:33:14 --> 01:33:15 It's you know,

01:33:15 --> 01:33:16 this is a real person,

01:33:17 --> 01:33:17 you know,

01:33:17 --> 01:33:19 like you're talking about these these abuse scandals like.

01:33:20 --> 01:33:20 Okay,

01:33:20 --> 01:33:21 maybe it was one person,

01:33:21 --> 01:33:22 you know,

01:33:22 --> 01:33:22 or maybe it's,

01:33:22 --> 01:33:24 let's say it's 10 pastors,

01:33:24 --> 01:33:25 but they're kind of being covered up.

01:33:26 --> 01:33:27 Well, what if one of the victims was your daughter?

01:33:27 --> 01:33:28 Would you be indifferent then?

01:33:28 --> 01:33:29 Yeah, right.

01:33:29 --> 01:33:30 Probably not.

01:33:31 --> 01:33:31 You know,

01:33:31 --> 01:33:35 what if your daughter was Breonna Taylor or George Floyd or

01:33:35 --> 01:33:35 whoever else?

01:33:35 --> 01:33:36 Would you be indifferent then?

01:33:37 --> 01:33:37 Right.

01:33:37 --> 01:33:38 And of course,

01:33:38 --> 01:33:38 you know,

01:33:39 --> 01:33:42 in the case of both George Floyd and Breonna Taylor,

01:33:43 --> 01:33:44 those are very complex cases.

01:33:45 --> 01:33:46 There's a ton of nuance.

01:33:47 --> 01:33:52 There's nuance and debate about whether or not what occurred in

01:33:52 --> 01:33:54 those scenarios

01:33:54 --> 01:33:54 were racist,

01:33:54 --> 01:33:57 whether it was police just acting wrongly.

01:33:57 --> 01:33:58 Right.

01:33:58 --> 01:34:00 There's there's a debate and discussion to happen there.

01:34:00 --> 01:34:03 But I get what you're saying, like to just be indifferent or

01:34:04 --> 01:34:05 If that was our daughter,

01:34:05 --> 01:34:06 if that was our son,

01:34:06 --> 01:34:08 we would not be indifferent.

01:34:08 --> 01:34:09 I don't think so, you know.

01:34:10 --> 01:34:14 So, yeah, I mean, again, you're right.

01:34:14 --> 01:34:19 The statistics can tend to hide or skew the humanity of the problem.

01:34:19 --> 01:34:22 Yeah, and we can't be callous to that.

01:34:22 --> 01:34:22 Yeah,

01:34:22 --> 01:34:27 I just feel like when we as Christians are so focused on statistics,

01:34:27 --> 01:34:31 because that's the primary way our political pundits that we

01:34:31 --> 01:34:32 look up to talk about

01:34:32 --> 01:34:32 these issues,

01:34:32 --> 01:34:36 it's almost like someone's house catches on fire and they're like,

01:34:36 --> 01:34:36 oh my gosh,

01:34:36 --> 01:34:39 I can't believe it's 70% of my house burned down.

01:34:39 --> 01:34:40 And we go,

01:34:40 --> 01:34:40 oh,

01:34:40 --> 01:34:41 well,

01:34:41 --> 01:34:41 actually,

01:34:42 --> 01:34:43 if you really look at the numbers,

01:34:43 --> 01:34:43 it's only about 40%.

01:34:44 --> 01:34:49 So it's like, it's not what we should be saying in that moment.

01:34:49 --> 01:34:50 And I'm not saying truth doesn't matter,

01:34:51 --> 01:34:51 but I'm just like,

01:34:52 --> 01:34:53 no matter what,

01:34:53 --> 01:34:54 a part of the house is burning down.

01:34:54 --> 01:34:55 We should care.

01:34:56 --> 01:34:58 And like, does the media have an agenda?

01:34:58 --> 01:34:59 Absolutely.

01:34:59 --> 01:35:00 Yes, it does.

01:35:00 --> 01:35:00 When,

01:35:01 --> 01:35:03 when it comes to the issue of race,

01:35:03 --> 01:35:05 does the left wing media have an agenda?

01:35:05 --> 01:35:05 Yes.

01:35:05 --> 01:35:06 I think it's very clear.

01:35:07 --> 01:35:09 But then, you know, does the right wing media have an agenda?

01:35:09 --> 01:35:09 Yes.

01:35:10 --> 01:35:11 Does Ben Shapiro have an agenda?

01:35:11 --> 01:35:12 Yes.

01:35:12 --> 01:35:12 Yes.

01:35:13 --> 01:35:16 It really comes down to, I believe, it comes down to power.

01:35:16 --> 01:35:18 People are fighting for power.

01:35:18 --> 01:35:21 And a lot of these issues that happen and arise,

01:35:21 --> 01:35:24 when we remove Christianity out of it,

01:35:24 --> 01:35:26 and we're just looking at it from a secular perspective,

01:35:26 --> 01:35:29 it's a lot of times a war for power.

01:35:29 --> 01:35:33 It's people grasping for power and money and control and

01:35:33 --> 01:35:34 influence and people doing

01:35:34 --> 01:35:36 whatever they can to stay on top.

01:35:37 --> 01:35:39 And I think it's just important for us as Christians to

01:35:39 --> 01:35:40 continue to remind

01:35:40 --> 01:35:42 ourselves to separate ourselves.

01:35:42 --> 01:35:45 from those mentalities of the left and right and try to just

01:35:45 --> 01:35:46 look at every

01:35:46 --> 01:35:52 situation humbly and thoughtfully and through a biblical and

01:35:52 --> 01:35:53 Christian and

01:35:53 --> 01:35:55 Christ-centered perspective.

01:35:55 --> 01:35:55 Okay,

01:35:55 --> 01:35:56 so as we wrap up this episode,

01:35:56 --> 01:36:00 I have a few questions for you about the idea of cultural Marxism.

01:36:00 --> 01:36:04 right yeah so for the sake of anyone listening marxism is the

01:36:04 --> 01:36:06 idea of class systems

01:36:06 --> 01:36:09 it's dividing everybody into classes and this is an

01:36:09 --> 01:36:11 oversimplification but

01:36:11 --> 01:36:14 basically it's this idea that in every society you have the

01:36:14 --> 01:36:16 oppressors people who

01:36:16 --> 01:36:19 punch down at the little man and then you have the oppressed

01:36:19 --> 01:36:20 the people who are

01:36:20 --> 01:36:22 under the boots of the oppressor and

01:36:22 --> 01:36:26 It's this idea of dividing everybody into these clear cut categories.

01:36:26 --> 01:36:29 You know, white people are oppressors and black people are oppressed.

01:36:29 --> 01:36:31 Police are oppressors and everyone else is oppressed.

01:36:31 --> 01:36:36 And with this idea of cultural Marxism cropping up in these

01:36:36 --> 01:36:37 discussions where

01:36:37 --> 01:36:40 whenever a pastor or Christian pastor starts talking about

01:36:40 --> 01:36:41 racism as a problem.

01:36:42 --> 01:36:43 In our current climate,

01:36:43 --> 01:36:46 I've seen many of these guys,

01:36:46 --> 01:36:47 friends of mine who are pastors,

01:36:48 --> 01:36:49 get labeled and people saying,

01:36:50 --> 01:36:50 oh,

01:36:50 --> 01:36:51 you're talking about racism.

01:36:51 --> 01:36:53 So I can see you're a cultural Marxist now.

01:36:54 --> 01:36:55 Like, why do you think that is?

01:36:55 --> 01:36:59 Why do you think that term is rising up in this way?

01:37:00 --> 01:37:04 When just talking about racism can get you labeled a cultural Marxist,

01:37:04 --> 01:37:07 do you think there's any validity to that label?

01:37:07 --> 01:37:07 Like,

01:37:08 --> 01:37:11 have you seen any American pastors where you can honestly say like,

01:37:11 --> 01:37:12 oh yeah,

01:37:12 --> 01:37:14 what they're saying sounds super Marxist?

01:37:14 --> 01:37:18 Or do you think the labeling is actually an exaggeration and

01:37:18 --> 01:37:19 maybe a label that we

01:37:19 --> 01:37:20 shouldn't be throwing around?

01:37:20 --> 01:37:21 I think generally speaking,

01:37:21 --> 01:37:25 most labels that are just just labels tend to be unhelpful.

01:37:26 --> 01:37:28 First of all, I would say cultural Marxism.

01:37:28 --> 01:37:28 I mean,

01:37:28 --> 01:37:28 that's,

01:37:29 --> 01:37:29 you know,

01:37:29 --> 01:37:30 I use it in my article,

01:37:30 --> 01:37:31 but I use it in scare quotes.

01:37:32 --> 01:37:36 And the reason is because it's actually kind of just a mishmash

01:37:36 --> 01:37:37 of conspiracy theory.

01:37:37 --> 01:37:41 If you kind of dig into the history of quote unquote cultural Marxism,

01:37:41 --> 01:37:42 there was actually a lot of anti-Semitic

01:37:43 --> 01:37:44 Thinking to,

01:37:44 --> 01:37:44 you know,

01:37:44 --> 01:37:47 it was the Jews who infiltrated Christian American society,

01:37:47 --> 01:37:47 yada,

01:37:48 --> 01:37:48 yada.

01:37:49 --> 01:37:51 The more accurate term would be critical race theory.

01:37:51 --> 01:37:52 Right,

01:37:52 --> 01:37:55 dividing people into different classes based on sexuality and

01:37:55 --> 01:37:56 gender and race and

01:37:56 --> 01:37:57 that sort of thing.

01:37:57 --> 01:37:58 Right, yeah.

01:37:58 --> 01:37:59 So critical theory,

01:37:59 --> 01:37:59 I mean,

01:37:59 --> 01:38:01 that is linked with Marxism,

01:38:02 --> 01:38:02 you know,

01:38:02 --> 01:38:03 but long story short,

01:38:03 --> 01:38:04 I mean,

01:38:04 --> 01:38:05 it's kind of like,

01:38:05 --> 01:38:06 you know,

01:38:06 --> 01:38:06 well,

01:38:07 --> 01:38:08 if I'm going to talk about,

01:38:09 --> 01:38:09 I don't know,

01:38:09 --> 01:38:10 owning of property,

01:38:11 --> 01:38:11 right?

01:38:11 --> 01:38:14 Which, I mean, there's some property that's owned in the Bible.

01:38:14 --> 01:38:15 Well,

01:38:15 --> 01:38:15 you know,

01:38:15 --> 01:38:16 therefore,

01:38:16 --> 01:38:18 you must be sort of this laissez-faire capitalist.

01:38:18 --> 01:38:22 No, you know, I'm just talking about what the Bible talks about.

01:38:22 --> 01:38:23 That's it.

01:38:23 --> 01:38:25 You don't get to lump me into your category.

01:38:26 --> 01:38:26 You know,

01:38:26 --> 01:38:29 and there are certain things that may align,

01:38:29 --> 01:38:31 but there are lots of other things that don't,

01:38:31 --> 01:38:31 you know,

01:38:32 --> 01:38:32 same thing here.

01:38:32 --> 01:38:32 It's like,

01:38:32 --> 01:38:33 well,

01:38:33 --> 01:38:33 well,

01:38:33 --> 01:38:34 if I'm talking about,

01:38:34 --> 01:38:35 you know,

01:38:35 --> 01:38:36 justice for those who are oppressed,

01:38:37 --> 01:38:38 I'm talking about,

01:38:38 --> 01:38:38 you know,

01:38:38 --> 01:38:42 the inherent value and worth of all ethnicities.

01:38:42 --> 01:38:43 Does that make me a racism?

01:38:43 --> 01:38:44 No, it makes me a student of the Bible.

01:38:45 --> 01:38:45 Yeah, right.

01:38:45 --> 01:38:45 You know,

01:38:46 --> 01:38:48 and do you get to fling racism at,

01:38:48 --> 01:38:49 or I'm sorry,

01:38:49 --> 01:38:50 the term Marxism at me because,

01:38:50 --> 01:38:51 you know,

01:38:51 --> 01:38:52 it allows you to ignore what I'm saying?

01:38:52 --> 01:38:52 Well,

01:38:53 --> 01:38:53 I mean,

01:38:53 --> 01:38:54 you can if you want,

01:38:54 --> 01:38:55 but,

01:38:55 --> 01:38:55 you know,

01:38:55 --> 01:38:56 I can,

01:38:56 --> 01:38:57 I think,

01:38:57 --> 01:38:57 you know,

01:38:57 --> 01:38:58 if I immediately tell you,

01:38:58 --> 01:38:58 you know,

01:38:58 --> 01:39:01 I do actually believe in,

01:39:01 --> 01:39:01 you know,

01:39:02 --> 01:39:03 people owning private property,

01:39:03 --> 01:39:03 well,

01:39:03 --> 01:39:04 automatically,

01:39:04 --> 01:39:06 then I'm not a Marxist if you know what Marxism is about.

01:39:07 --> 01:39:10 So if that makes you feel better and lets you ignore these

01:39:10 --> 01:39:11 things that are actually

01:39:12 --> 01:39:13 biblical statements about,

01:39:14 --> 01:39:14 again,

01:39:14 --> 01:39:16 oppression and injustice and all that,

01:39:16 --> 01:39:16 I mean,

01:39:16 --> 01:39:18 it's unfortunate people do it.

01:39:18 --> 01:39:19 Is it going to lead to any kind of...

01:39:22 --> 01:39:25 good cultural dialogue or is it really i mean for for

01:39:25 --> 01:39:26 christians again is this

01:39:26 --> 01:39:28 appropriate for christian no it's not it goes back to

01:39:28 --> 01:39:30 demonizing other people goes

01:39:30 --> 01:39:34 back to sort of guilt by association which is a form of slander

01:39:34 --> 01:39:36 so yeah i mean is

01:39:36 --> 01:39:39 that is that a term that we should be using no i don't think so

01:39:39 --> 01:39:40 yeah i agree with

01:39:40 --> 01:39:40 that

01:39:40 --> 01:39:40 Yeah.

01:39:41 --> 01:39:41 Now,

01:39:41 --> 01:39:41 I mean,

01:39:42 --> 01:39:42 you asked this question,

01:39:42 --> 01:39:42 like,

01:39:43 --> 01:39:43 are there,

01:39:43 --> 01:39:43 well,

01:39:43 --> 01:39:44 let's put it this way.

01:39:44 --> 01:39:45 Are there people in these kind of,

01:39:45 --> 01:39:45 you know,

01:39:46 --> 01:39:47 racial justice protests who are Marxists?

01:39:47 --> 01:39:48 Of course there are,

01:39:48 --> 01:39:48 you know,

01:39:48 --> 01:39:48 there are,

01:39:48 --> 01:39:49 there are people who,

01:39:49 --> 01:39:50 you know,

01:39:50 --> 01:39:50 as far as I can tell,

01:39:51 --> 01:39:51 you know,

01:39:51 --> 01:39:52 not claiming to be Christians,

01:39:52 --> 01:39:52 but,

01:39:53 --> 01:39:54 but they sort of avow Marxism.

01:39:55 --> 01:39:55 Again,

01:39:55 --> 01:39:55 if you're right,

01:39:56 --> 01:39:56 again,

01:39:56 --> 01:39:57 if you're an actual Marxist,

01:39:57 --> 01:39:58 Marxist,

01:39:58 --> 01:39:58 you're also an atheist.

01:39:58 --> 01:40:00 So the two kind of don't mix.

01:40:00 --> 01:40:01 Say that again.

01:40:01 --> 01:40:03 If you're an actual Marxist, you're also an atheist.

01:40:03 --> 01:40:06 That was one of the tenants of Marxism is that there is no God,

01:40:06 --> 01:40:07 you know,

01:40:07 --> 01:40:09 I live in the former Soviet Union.

01:40:09 --> 01:40:10 You have to remember that.

01:40:10 --> 01:40:11 So,

01:40:11 --> 01:40:11 you know,

01:40:12 --> 01:40:12 but are there,

01:40:13 --> 01:40:13 you know,

01:40:13 --> 01:40:13 I mean,

01:40:13 --> 01:40:17 maybe there's a handful of pastors out there somewhere who

01:40:17 --> 01:40:18 might kind of call

01:40:19 --> 01:40:22 themselves both Marxist and Christians that I haven't really

01:40:22 --> 01:40:24 run into any certainly

01:40:24 --> 01:40:26 not not in theologically conservative circles.

01:40:27 --> 01:40:32 so when you so when you have somebody who has you know again

01:40:32 --> 01:40:34 solid theology you

01:40:34 --> 01:40:37 know in the biblical sense not in the political sense the biblical sense

01:40:37 --> 01:40:40 conservative right they they hold to you know the apostles

01:40:40 --> 01:40:42 creed you know historic

01:40:42 --> 01:40:46 protestant statements of faith you know all kind of kind of the

01:40:46 --> 01:40:47 whole you know

01:40:47 --> 01:40:51 evangelical litany of you know doctrinal points that we should hold to

01:40:52 --> 01:40:53 And then they say,

01:40:53 --> 01:40:57 and we should be interested in justice for racial,

01:40:58 --> 01:40:58 you know,

01:40:59 --> 01:41:01 racial minorities for those who are oppressed.

01:41:01 --> 01:41:04 You know, do you get to throw him under the bus with Marxists?

01:41:04 --> 01:41:05 No, that's dishonest.

01:41:06 --> 01:41:08 I mean, again, people do it, but it's unfortunate.

01:41:08 --> 01:41:10 Yeah, dude, such a good point.

01:41:10 --> 01:41:13 And I feel like it's a label that gets thrown around unfairly.

01:41:13 --> 01:41:16 And, you know, I'm just trying to think this through.

01:41:16 --> 01:41:18 I've heard one joke that basically,

01:41:18 --> 01:41:19 you know,

01:41:19 --> 01:41:22 the strategy for debate is anytime anyone says anything you don't like,

01:41:22 --> 01:41:24 just call them a Marxist and you automatically win the debate.

01:41:25 --> 01:41:26 Sad but true.

01:41:26 --> 01:41:27 Yeah.

01:41:28 --> 01:41:29 Yeah,

01:41:29 --> 01:41:30 and there's probably,

01:41:30 --> 01:41:30 you know,

01:41:30 --> 01:41:32 insults that happen on the other side as well.

01:41:33 --> 01:41:33 But,

01:41:33 --> 01:41:33 you know,

01:41:33 --> 01:41:37 it's been interesting because I've seen some progressive

01:41:37 --> 01:41:38 liberal friends of mine

01:41:38 --> 01:41:39 who will post things saying,

01:41:39 --> 01:41:40 you know,

01:41:40 --> 01:41:40 oh,

01:41:40 --> 01:41:41 Jesus was a socialist.

01:41:41 --> 01:41:43 And I'm just like,

01:41:43 --> 01:41:43 okay,

01:41:43 --> 01:41:44 well,

01:41:44 --> 01:41:45 actually,

01:41:45 --> 01:41:48 Jesus wasn't a capitalist and he definitely wouldn't have been

01:41:48 --> 01:41:50 a member of the NRA,

01:41:50 --> 01:41:52 but he isn't a socialist either.

01:41:52 --> 01:41:53 He doesn't fit.

01:41:53 --> 01:41:56 Like, he doesn't fit these political categories because –

01:41:57 --> 01:41:57 You know,

01:41:57 --> 01:41:59 like when you start with capitalism,

01:41:59 --> 01:42:01 capitalism has its own theology.

01:42:01 --> 01:42:04 When you start with socialism, socialism has its own theology.

01:42:04 --> 01:42:07 And what I mean by that is it has its own belief system.

01:42:07 --> 01:42:12 There are manifestos and beliefs that are written to support these ideas.

01:42:12 --> 01:42:13 And for Christians,

01:42:13 --> 01:42:17 we don't start with socialism and figure out how to get

01:42:17 --> 01:42:18 scripture to support it.

01:42:18 --> 01:42:21 We don't start with capitalism and figure out how do we get

01:42:21 --> 01:42:22 scripture to support capitalism.

01:42:23 --> 01:42:25 We start with scripture and we start with what does Jesus say?

01:42:26 --> 01:42:28 How does Jesus teach us to think about the world?

01:42:29 --> 01:42:33 And so I just don't think we should be calling ourselves these things.

01:42:33 --> 01:42:35 I don't think we should call ourselves a socialist or a

01:42:35 --> 01:42:36 capitalist or even a

01:42:36 --> 01:42:37 conservative or liberal.

01:42:38 --> 01:42:41 I think we should call ourselves Christ followers and then work

01:42:41 --> 01:42:42 out the rest of

01:42:42 --> 01:42:45 what we believe from the starting point of Jesus instead of

01:42:45 --> 01:42:47 reverse engineering it.

01:42:47 --> 01:42:47 So,

01:42:47 --> 01:42:48 you know,

01:42:48 --> 01:42:50 I think it's just one of those things that can be so tricky.

01:42:50 --> 01:42:53 And I think we just need to stop dismissing people and actually

01:42:53 --> 01:42:54 listen to what they have to say.

01:42:55 --> 01:42:59 I love what you're saying about how we have this idea that just

01:42:59 --> 01:42:59 because somebody

01:42:59 --> 01:43:03 who's a non-Christian or an atheist or somebody who has an

01:43:03 --> 01:43:04 opposing view of us is

01:43:04 --> 01:43:06 saying something that it can't be true at all.

01:43:06 --> 01:43:06 Like,

01:43:06 --> 01:43:07 for instance,

01:43:08 --> 01:43:08 you know,

01:43:08 --> 01:43:12 let's take the Black Lives Matter political movement and organization.

01:43:12 --> 01:43:16 We now know that the people who have started that movement are

01:43:16 --> 01:43:18 identified as Marxist.

01:43:18 --> 01:43:23 There's evidence of them saying, like, hey, we are trained Marxists.

01:43:23 --> 01:43:25 So, yes, sure, fine, get that out of the way.

01:43:25 --> 01:43:26 Like, they are Marxists.

01:43:27 --> 01:43:27 How?

01:43:27 --> 01:43:28 However,

01:43:28 --> 01:43:34 that doesn't mean that just because a Marxist is pointing out

01:43:34 --> 01:43:34 some injustice

01:43:35 --> 01:43:36 towards black people,

01:43:36 --> 01:43:39 that doesn't mean that it can't be true.

01:43:39 --> 01:43:42 That doesn't mean that a Christian should just assume that

01:43:42 --> 01:43:43 every statistic or

01:43:44 --> 01:43:46 everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie.

01:43:46 --> 01:43:48 There could be some truth in there.

01:43:48 --> 01:43:50 And as a Christian, you can acknowledge that truth.

01:43:51 --> 01:43:53 That doesn't mean that therefore you agree with everything the

01:43:53 --> 01:43:54 Marxist stands for.

01:43:55 --> 01:43:57 If a Marxist says two plus two equals four,

01:43:58 --> 01:43:58 if you agree,

01:43:58 --> 01:44:01 that doesn't mean that you have now become a Marxist.

01:44:02 --> 01:44:04 A broken clock is right twice a day, they say.

01:44:04 --> 01:44:05 Exactly.

01:44:05 --> 01:44:07 So, yeah, I mean, you're totally right.

01:44:07 --> 01:44:09 And it's back to that whole guilt by association thing.

01:44:10 --> 01:44:11 But in the end,

01:44:12 --> 01:44:13 if something is true,

01:44:13 --> 01:44:14 because it's God's truth,

01:44:14 --> 01:44:16 then it's true no matter who says it,

01:44:16 --> 01:44:18 even if other things that person says are not true.

01:44:19 --> 01:44:20 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:44:20 --> 01:44:21 I mean,

01:44:21 --> 01:44:22 it's not just Marxism,

01:44:22 --> 01:44:25 although sometimes people get accused of being just a Marxist

01:44:25 --> 01:44:26 because they talk about...

01:44:27 --> 01:44:28 Issues of systemic racism,

01:44:28 --> 01:44:29 it's specifically,

01:44:29 --> 01:44:30 quote unquote,

01:44:30 --> 01:44:31 cultural Marxism,

01:44:31 --> 01:44:32 which has to do,

01:44:32 --> 01:44:33 as you mentioned,

01:44:33 --> 01:44:35 more with kind of these social groupings.

01:44:35 --> 01:44:36 You know,

01:44:36 --> 01:44:39 the reality is before there ever was a Karl Marx,

01:44:40 --> 01:44:40 you know,

01:44:40 --> 01:44:44 was the group that were Africans and then later

01:44:44 --> 01:44:47 African-Americans oppressed by the

01:44:47 --> 01:44:48 group that were white in America?

01:44:49 --> 01:44:51 Yes, it's called slavery.

01:44:51 --> 01:44:51 Right.

01:44:51 --> 01:44:51 Right.

01:44:51 --> 01:44:54 I mean, you can't you can't you can't ignore that.

01:44:54 --> 01:44:55 And it has nothing to do with Marxism.

01:44:56 --> 01:44:58 Or these other kind of later ideologies that came along.

01:44:58 --> 01:45:00 I mean, oppression predates Marx.

01:45:01 --> 01:45:01 Yes, it does.

01:45:02 --> 01:45:04 But by quite a few thousand years,

01:45:04 --> 01:45:04 you know,

01:45:05 --> 01:45:05 I mean,

01:45:05 --> 01:45:07 there's oppression in the world because there's sin in the world.

01:45:07 --> 01:45:08 And this is kind of,

01:45:08 --> 01:45:08 you know,

01:45:08 --> 01:45:09 going back to it again,

01:45:10 --> 01:45:13 not all oppression is ethnically based,

01:45:13 --> 01:45:17 but historically it's not rare that it has been ethnically based.

01:45:18 --> 01:45:21 and you know specifically in the more recent history and and

01:45:21 --> 01:45:22 speaking to the united

01:45:22 --> 01:45:25 states you know it was ethnically and to some degree is

01:45:25 --> 01:45:27 ethnically based you know

01:45:28 --> 01:45:31 still dealing with the after effects of this this long history

01:45:31 --> 01:45:32 of systemic racism

01:45:33 --> 01:45:36 primarily against you know black people but also other

01:45:37 --> 01:45:38 minorities in america can

01:45:38 --> 01:45:42 can certainly suffer from that as well not least of which are

01:45:42 --> 01:45:43 you know you know the

01:45:43 --> 01:45:46 indigenous peoples native you know native americans

01:45:47 --> 01:45:51 You know, who certainly were oppressed and destroyed in many ways.

01:45:52 --> 01:45:53 So again,

01:45:53 --> 01:45:54 and you mentioned this earlier,

01:45:54 --> 01:45:56 but that's just to say that when we're talking about racial justice,

01:45:57 --> 01:46:00 while the main focus is on kind of the African American

01:46:00 --> 01:46:01 community right now,

01:46:02 --> 01:46:05 we should not ignore the issues for other minorities either.

01:46:05 --> 01:46:06 Yeah, that's a good point.

01:46:06 --> 01:46:09 There's so many people around the world that face oppression in

01:46:09 --> 01:46:10 many different ways.

01:46:10 --> 01:46:13 And I think one of the greatest hopes that the gospel gives us

01:46:13 --> 01:46:14 is what happens to

01:46:14 --> 01:46:17 the oppressor and the oppressed when they both come to the

01:46:17 --> 01:46:17 cross of Jesus.

01:46:18 --> 01:46:18 Like,

01:46:18 --> 01:46:22 it's fascinating to see stories in the Bible of Jewish people,

01:46:23 --> 01:46:23 you know,

01:46:23 --> 01:46:26 oppressed by first the Egyptians and then other called the

01:46:26 --> 01:46:27 Babylonians and then the Romans.

01:46:28 --> 01:46:29 And then you get to the New Testament,

01:46:29 --> 01:46:33 you've got these Roman centurions and they come to Christ.

01:46:34 --> 01:46:37 And then you see them at the same table together with the

01:46:37 --> 01:46:38 Jewish people they were oppressing.

01:46:38 --> 01:46:41 And they're humble and they're seeking mercy and forgiveness.

01:46:42 --> 01:46:44 And man, that's the hope.

01:46:44 --> 01:46:47 That's the hope that Christianity gives us is this framework

01:46:48 --> 01:46:48 where the world says,

01:46:49 --> 01:46:49 You know,

01:46:49 --> 01:46:52 the secular system would look at a group of people and say,

01:46:52 --> 01:46:52 oh,

01:46:52 --> 01:46:55 these people are oppressors and they're bad and evil.

01:46:55 --> 01:46:55 They're all evil.

01:46:56 --> 01:46:59 And the solution is to tear down the system and destroy them

01:46:59 --> 01:47:00 all and then raise up

01:47:00 --> 01:47:02 the oppressors and put them in power.

01:47:02 --> 01:47:03 But we know,

01:47:03 --> 01:47:04 as history shows us,

01:47:04 --> 01:47:06 oftentimes what happens in these systems is

01:47:06 --> 01:47:08 When one oppressive regime is toppled,

01:47:08 --> 01:47:10 then another one rises to take its place.

01:47:10 --> 01:47:13 And oftentimes the oppressed become the oppressor.

01:47:14 --> 01:47:16 It's this sin cycle of history.

01:47:16 --> 01:47:18 And so what's different is with Christianity,

01:47:19 --> 01:47:21 you have such a different paradigm.

01:47:21 --> 01:47:23 Like for instance, take the book of Philemon, right?

01:47:24 --> 01:47:25 Paul's saying to this guy,

01:47:25 --> 01:47:25 Philemon,

01:47:25 --> 01:47:27 who has a slave who ran away,

01:47:27 --> 01:47:28 a guy named Onesimus.

01:47:28 --> 01:47:29 He's saying,

01:47:29 --> 01:47:29 listen,

01:47:29 --> 01:47:30 Philemon,

01:47:30 --> 01:47:31 I know your slave ran away,

01:47:31 --> 01:47:36 but I am calling you to not hunt him down and kill him because

01:47:36 --> 01:47:37 he ran away from you.

01:47:37 --> 01:47:39 I'm calling you to reconcile with him,

01:47:40 --> 01:47:42 to not enact justice against him,

01:47:42 --> 01:47:43 but I'm calling...

01:47:43 --> 01:47:47 for you guys to be Christian brothers and to love one another.

01:47:47 --> 01:47:48 And I just think,

01:47:48 --> 01:47:49 you know,

01:47:49 --> 01:47:52 that is the model that the Bible and that Jesus gives us that's

01:47:53 --> 01:47:53 so different.

01:47:54 --> 01:47:55 And that doesn't mean that we just go,

01:47:55 --> 01:47:56 okay,

01:47:56 --> 01:47:56 you know,

01:47:56 --> 01:47:57 we have an oppressed people,

01:47:57 --> 01:47:59 but they just need to come to Jesus.

01:47:59 --> 01:48:01 And then the oppressors just need to come to Jesus.

01:48:02 --> 01:48:02 And then everything...

01:48:03 --> 01:48:05 you know, can just keep going the way it is.

01:48:05 --> 01:48:09 But as long as the oppressors and the oppressed both are giving

01:48:09 --> 01:48:10 their hearts to Jesus,

01:48:10 --> 01:48:11 then everything would be fine.

01:48:11 --> 01:48:11 No,

01:48:11 --> 01:48:14 the idea would be that when the oppressors and the oppressed

01:48:14 --> 01:48:15 come to Jesus,

01:48:15 --> 01:48:18 the oppressors on one hand will stop oppressing people.

01:48:19 --> 01:48:22 They'll let go of their oppression and then they'll instead love and be

01:48:22 --> 01:48:25 self-sacrificial and kind and just and

01:48:26 --> 01:48:29 and ask for forgiveness and find out what they can do to bring

01:48:29 --> 01:48:31 restitution and restoration.

01:48:32 --> 01:48:33 And then for the oppressed,

01:48:33 --> 01:48:36 they are then called to let go of their anger and their

01:48:36 --> 01:48:38 bitterness and not to seek

01:48:38 --> 01:48:40 revenge and to not have this eye for an eye mentality,

01:48:41 --> 01:48:43 but to love even the ones that had hurt them.

01:48:43 --> 01:48:46 And so to me, that's the idea.

01:48:46 --> 01:48:49 That's the idea of racial reconciliation.

01:48:49 --> 01:48:52 And ultimately, yeah, that's what we're fighting for.

01:48:52 --> 01:48:52 You know,

01:48:53 --> 01:48:54 I think anyone listening to this,

01:48:54 --> 01:48:57 I hope they don't think that we're fighting for some secular

01:48:57 --> 01:48:58 progressive idea of

01:48:58 --> 01:49:02 systemic racism or this idea of every white person is a racist

01:49:02 --> 01:49:02 or whatever.

01:49:03 --> 01:49:03 Ultimately,

01:49:03 --> 01:49:05 as Christians and as pastors,

01:49:05 --> 01:49:07 we're approaching this theologically.

01:49:07 --> 01:49:11 And our hope is to see reconciliation between people.

01:49:11 --> 01:49:16 And it's to see people find the gospel and find Jesus and find

01:49:16 --> 01:49:17 it in their hearts

01:49:17 --> 01:49:21 to surrender their hatred and even,

01:49:21 --> 01:49:22 yes,

01:49:22 --> 01:49:23 possibly forgive one another.

01:49:23 --> 01:49:24 So Ben,

01:49:24 --> 01:49:25 to close,

01:49:25 --> 01:49:29 can you touch on that idea of what is the balance between us as

01:49:29 --> 01:49:30 Christians saying

01:49:30 --> 01:49:33 that the gospel is the solution to the problems of the world,

01:49:34 --> 01:49:35 but then also asking the question,

01:49:35 --> 01:49:36 do we just stop at the gospel?

01:49:37 --> 01:49:40 Is the gospel the only answer or is there more to it?

01:49:40 --> 01:49:41 Yeah,

01:49:41 --> 01:49:41 I mean,

01:49:41 --> 01:49:41 you know,

01:49:41 --> 01:49:42 like I mentioned,

01:49:42 --> 01:49:45 the gospel is the only thing that can transform us at a heart level.

01:49:46 --> 01:49:47 That's for sure.

01:49:47 --> 01:49:47 So,

01:49:47 --> 01:49:47 I mean,

01:49:47 --> 01:49:49 we can't say like,

01:49:49 --> 01:49:49 oh,

01:49:49 --> 01:49:52 we'll just enact all of these great,

01:49:52 --> 01:49:52 you know,

01:49:52 --> 01:49:56 kind of social and legal policies and we'll solve racism.

01:49:56 --> 01:49:58 Well, that's not exactly how it works, you know.

01:49:59 --> 01:50:03 because racism in the end is about identity it's about you know

01:50:03 --> 01:50:04 kind of our

01:50:04 --> 01:50:08 attempts to self-justify we need a new identity and we need to

01:50:08 --> 01:50:09 receive the gift of

01:50:09 --> 01:50:13 justification that's in christ alone at the same time because

01:50:13 --> 01:50:15 we have received

01:50:15 --> 01:50:18 these things and because we now value through christ what god

01:50:18 --> 01:50:19 values and what god

01:50:19 --> 01:50:23 values among many things is justice is all people

01:50:24 --> 01:50:26 is, you know, particularly justice for the oppressed.

01:50:27 --> 01:50:27 I mean,

01:50:27 --> 01:50:27 you know,

01:50:28 --> 01:50:30 the Bible is full of God's kind of,

01:50:30 --> 01:50:31 you know,

01:50:31 --> 01:50:31 he says,

01:50:31 --> 01:50:36 I'm on the side of the orphans and the widows and the word is sojourners,

01:50:36 --> 01:50:37 right?

01:50:37 --> 01:50:38 But it's really the immigrants.

01:50:38 --> 01:50:43 You know, and so we value as God's people the things that God values.

01:50:43 --> 01:50:47 And therefore, we try to have our lives reflected.

01:50:47 --> 01:50:47 And,

01:50:48 --> 01:50:48 you know,

01:50:48 --> 01:50:53 one can make arguments that in a society where people basically

01:50:53 --> 01:50:54 had no say,

01:50:54 --> 01:50:55 I mean,

01:50:55 --> 01:50:55 they're,

01:50:55 --> 01:50:55 you know,

01:50:55 --> 01:50:57 in an authoritarian regime,

01:50:57 --> 01:50:57 you know,

01:50:57 --> 01:51:02 perhaps their responsibility to see these things fleshed out was

01:51:02 --> 01:51:03 really more,

01:51:04 --> 01:51:05 not exclusively,

01:51:05 --> 01:51:07 but perhaps more within,

01:51:08 --> 01:51:08 you know,

01:51:08 --> 01:51:09 the life of the church itself.

01:51:10 --> 01:51:12 And certainly we should continue that.

01:51:12 --> 01:51:13 That should not stop.

01:51:14 --> 01:51:14 But as,

01:51:14 --> 01:51:15 you know,

01:51:15 --> 01:51:19 most of us in the 21st century live in democracies where,

01:51:19 --> 01:51:19 you know,

01:51:19 --> 01:51:24 the citizens have a measure of authority and thus responsibility,

01:51:24 --> 01:51:24 right?

01:51:25 --> 01:51:27 To quote Spider-Man with great power comes great responsibility.

01:51:28 --> 01:51:30 I had to get like a, you know...

01:51:31 --> 01:51:35 movie quoted somewhere i mean you know so so as those living in

01:51:35 --> 01:51:36 these societies

01:51:36 --> 01:51:40 where we have some sort of you know say or influence we should

01:51:40 --> 01:51:41 seek to reflect them

01:51:41 --> 01:51:46 again as the church reflecting it but then also you know in in

01:51:46 --> 01:51:48 policies and and and

01:51:48 --> 01:51:51 really the political sphere as much as you know each person

01:51:51 --> 01:51:52 feels called to take

01:51:52 --> 01:51:57 part in that you know seek to to do so in a way that reflects

01:51:57 --> 01:51:58 the values of christ

01:51:59 --> 01:52:00 Man, that's good.

01:52:00 --> 01:52:01 So good, Ben.

01:52:01 --> 01:52:04 Thank you for your time and your perspective.

01:52:04 --> 01:52:07 We've got to have you back on again to talk more about this.

01:52:07 --> 01:52:09 This is a hot topic for sure.

01:52:09 --> 01:52:10 It is a hot topic.

01:52:10 --> 01:52:11 Yeah, I would love to.

01:52:12 --> 01:52:13 I appreciate your perspective,

01:52:14 --> 01:52:14 though,

01:52:14 --> 01:52:14 especially,

01:52:14 --> 01:52:15 you know,

01:52:15 --> 01:52:17 I just love talking to missionaries about this stuff because

01:52:17 --> 01:52:18 their perspective

01:52:18 --> 01:52:20 always feels like a breath of fresh air to me.

01:52:20 --> 01:52:21 You know,

01:52:21 --> 01:52:24 they're not really in that American political firefight situation.

01:52:24 --> 01:52:27 it's almost like they're kind of sitting on a hill observing

01:52:27 --> 01:52:28 all sides of the battle.

01:52:28 --> 01:52:31 And so I appreciate that because I feel like it gives a more

01:52:32 --> 01:52:33 objective view than

01:52:33 --> 01:52:35 when you're kind of down on the ground level fighting,

01:52:35 --> 01:52:36 you know,

01:52:36 --> 01:52:38 and you feel like you have to fight for one side or the other.

01:52:38 --> 01:52:38 So.

01:52:38 --> 01:52:38 Right.

01:52:39 --> 01:52:39 Yeah.

01:52:39 --> 01:52:42 They say you should never ask a fish what water is.

01:52:42 --> 01:52:42 Yeah.

01:52:43 --> 01:52:43 Right.

01:52:43 --> 01:52:45 It's like you're surrounded by it.

01:52:45 --> 01:52:46 You're just, it's like, what's water?

01:52:46 --> 01:52:47 I'm just here, you know?

01:52:48 --> 01:52:48 Right.

01:52:48 --> 01:52:49 But when you get a little bit outside,

01:52:49 --> 01:52:49 you know,

01:52:50 --> 01:52:50 it is,

01:52:50 --> 01:52:50 it is,

01:52:50 --> 01:52:51 it is,

01:52:51 --> 01:52:51 again,

01:52:51 --> 01:52:53 it kind of adds just a different perspective.

01:52:53 --> 01:52:53 Yeah.

01:52:55 --> 01:52:58 that's good thanks for being here ben really really appreciate

01:52:58 --> 01:52:58 it thanks aaron

01:52:59 --> 01:53:01 thank you for listening to another episode of the good lion

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