People of Peace in the Midst of a Culture War
*The GoodLion PodcastJuly 27, 2020
3
00:52:5148.41 MB

People of Peace in the Midst of a Culture War

🎙️ Aaron Salvato🎙️ Aaron SalvatoHost
🎙️ Brian Higgins🎙️ Brian HigginsCo-Host

In this episode, Brian and Aaron discuss the reality of "Cultural Pharisees". At one time, Conservative Christians were seen as the strict moralists of the day, but currently, we see some of the same legalism on the left (a concept we shamelessly stole from Mark Sayers). We discuss the need for Christians to be people of peace in the midst of rapidly changing cultural landscapes and culture wars. We also explore the necessity for Christians who hold non-affirming theology (regarding LGBT issues) to do so with love, grace, and compassion, and discuss some hopeful stories about how to do just that. Also... we take a strange turn into how to talk to white supremacists about Jesus!? All this and more on this episode of the GoodLion Podcast.


Show Links:


Check out the full episode of "This Cultural Moment" that we referenced, a great convo between John Mark Comer and Mark Sayers entitled Progressives as The New Pharisees and The Immorality of The Christian Sex Ethic





This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodlionpod.substack.com


00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Hey everyone, welcome back to the Good Lion Podcast.

00:00:04 --> 00:00:05 Last episode,

00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Brian and I got together to record again for the first time in weeks.

00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 And man, did we have a lot to decompress and talk about.

00:00:12 --> 00:00:13 We talked about life,

00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 what we've been doing for work,

00:00:15 --> 00:00:16 Brian's move back to New Jersey,

00:00:17 --> 00:00:17 COVID,

00:00:18 --> 00:00:18 racial tensions,

00:00:19 --> 00:00:20 division in the church,

00:00:20 --> 00:00:20 discouragements.

00:00:21 --> 00:00:22 It was quite the conversation.

00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 And today we're going to pick that convo back up.

00:00:25 --> 00:00:26 At the end of last week's episode,

00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 we were getting into discussing how our current cultural moment

00:00:30 --> 00:00:30 is really good at

00:00:30 --> 00:00:34 producing a pharisaical outlook and how the current cultural

00:00:34 --> 00:00:35 moment differs from

00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 where we were the previous two decades.

00:00:37 --> 00:00:38 Let's jump back in.

00:00:38 --> 00:00:39 Here's Brian.

00:00:44 --> 00:00:49 We don't even recognize how fully broken we are.

00:00:49 --> 00:00:53 And so when we teach the idea of you can find wholeness,

00:00:53 --> 00:00:58 it's so much bigger than you can get past that sin that I don't

00:00:58 --> 00:00:58 like in you.

00:00:59 --> 00:00:59 Right.

00:00:59 --> 00:01:03 It's rather you can be free from the way that sin warps you,

00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 not completely yet,

00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 but you can be free from it and you can move more and more

00:01:08 --> 00:01:10 towards freedom as you

00:01:10 --> 00:01:11 know Jesus more and more.

00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 That becomes a completely different offer than Jesus will help

00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 you see this one

00:01:18 --> 00:01:19 thing differently.

00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 It's he'll help you see everything differently.

00:01:21 --> 00:01:25 You were talking about how sometimes as Christians,

00:01:25 --> 00:01:29 we have the tendency to attack the symptoms,

00:01:29 --> 00:01:30 but not the disease.

00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 Is that a good character?

00:01:32 --> 00:01:33 Yeah, definitely.

00:01:33 --> 00:01:34 Yeah.

00:01:34 --> 00:01:35 So I agree with you.

00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 And I think what you're saying is important.

00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 I do have a little bit of pushback and it's just it's another

00:01:40 --> 00:01:41 angle to consider this from.

00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 And I'd love to get your opinion on it.

00:01:43 --> 00:01:46 So we're talking about how it's much more effective,

00:01:46 --> 00:01:47 right,

00:01:47 --> 00:01:50 to reach people and just bring them to Jesus and then let the

00:01:50 --> 00:01:51 Holy Spirit,

00:01:51 --> 00:01:52 you know,

00:01:52 --> 00:01:52 change them.

00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 But I think we're reacting to,

00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 and I'd say we're rightly reacting to,

00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 the church in the 90s,

00:02:00 --> 00:02:01 early 2000s,

00:02:01 --> 00:02:02 80s,

00:02:02 --> 00:02:07 the church tended to have a very conservative mentality and a

00:02:07 --> 00:02:08 very legalistic,

00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 almost pharisaical mentality,

00:02:10 --> 00:02:11 I would say,

00:02:11 --> 00:02:11 that

00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 That's my analysis of the church back then as somebody who was

00:02:14 --> 00:02:15 a part of it and as

00:02:15 --> 00:02:18 someone who's analyzed the stories of different friends that

00:02:18 --> 00:02:18 are a part of it.

00:02:19 --> 00:02:20 So it's this idea of like,

00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 we're going to be really strict about what we think about

00:02:23 --> 00:02:24 sexuality or what we

00:02:24 --> 00:02:25 think about this or that.

00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 You know, I mean, I remember things like, you know, secular music.

00:02:29 --> 00:02:31 I had a youth pastor who was talking about how,

00:02:31 --> 00:02:31 you know,

00:02:31 --> 00:02:35 you guys all need to take your secular music and put all your

00:02:35 --> 00:02:36 CDs in a pile and

00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 light it on fire.

00:02:37 --> 00:02:40 There's like this extreme attitude towards things.

00:02:40 --> 00:02:45 So now what I'm seeing is a reaction to that in 2020.

00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 And this has been developing,

00:02:47 --> 00:02:47 I would say,

00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 maybe over the last 10 years where I'm seeing a lot of people

00:02:52 --> 00:02:53 basically react to

00:02:53 --> 00:02:57 that with this attitude of the things that they told us were

00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 sinful are actually okay.

00:02:59 --> 00:03:00 And we should celebrate those things.

00:03:01 --> 00:03:02 I'll just give an example.

00:03:02 --> 00:03:07 I saw a Facebook thread where it was people basically talking about their

00:03:07 --> 00:03:08 experience in youth group.

00:03:09 --> 00:03:09 And it was like,

00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 when we were kids,

00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 the youth pastor told us that we shouldn't have sex before marriage.

00:03:15 --> 00:03:16 But actually,

00:03:16 --> 00:03:21 healthy sexuality is a very normal part of developing for teenagers.

00:03:21 --> 00:03:23 And we shouldn't try to suppress this or repress this.

00:03:23 --> 00:03:23 And

00:03:24 --> 00:03:26 It was like kind of this very progressive,

00:03:26 --> 00:03:30 liberal idea of these things that they said are sins are

00:03:30 --> 00:03:31 actually normal and we

00:03:31 --> 00:03:32 should celebrate it.

00:03:32 --> 00:03:36 So let's talk about our positive experiences as teenagers

00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 having sex with different

00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 people and how it helped us grow and how it helped us become

00:03:40 --> 00:03:41 better people.

00:03:41 --> 00:03:42 And my question is,

00:03:43 --> 00:03:43 one,

00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 are you seeing that same trend of people looking at things and saying,

00:03:47 --> 00:03:48 man,

00:03:48 --> 00:03:48 back in the day,

00:03:48 --> 00:03:49 back in the 90s,

00:03:49 --> 00:03:50 back in the early 2000s,

00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 the church told us these things were bad.

00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 But actually, they're not and we should celebrate them.

00:03:54 --> 00:03:56 And then for us on the other side of it,

00:03:56 --> 00:03:57 as ministers and as Christians,

00:03:58 --> 00:04:01 how do we address that by holding to that same principle?

00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 Because if I've even seen it in the church where we have

00:04:04 --> 00:04:05 Christians who are saying

00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 the things that they said were bad are actually not bad.

00:04:08 --> 00:04:11 And we should we should actually be supportive of these things.

00:04:11 --> 00:04:12 So, like, how do we deal with that?

00:04:12 --> 00:04:12 First,

00:04:13 --> 00:04:18 I'll say that I spent a quarter of that time wondering whether

00:04:18 --> 00:04:19 or not youth pastors

00:04:19 --> 00:04:22 aren't saying that you should burn your CDs anymore just

00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 because CDs don't exist anymore.

00:04:26 --> 00:04:26 That was a very,

00:04:27 --> 00:04:27 like,

00:04:27 --> 00:04:31 I could feel the date of the example that you were using.

00:04:31 --> 00:04:31 Oh, yeah.

00:04:32 --> 00:04:32 That was probably 2004.

00:04:32 --> 00:04:32 Yeah.

00:04:34 --> 00:04:34 That was what I felt.

00:04:35 --> 00:04:36 You were dead on.

00:04:36 --> 00:04:40 But yeah, I have seen and noticed what you're talking about.

00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 I don't think that's the best way to deal with it.

00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 What do you think is not the best way to deal with it?

00:04:46 --> 00:04:50 The idea of what we were told was wrong maybe isn't wrong and

00:04:50 --> 00:04:51 therefore we should

00:04:51 --> 00:04:52 celebrate things.

00:04:52 --> 00:04:52 Yeah.

00:04:53 --> 00:04:59 I think that a lot of what was going on in that 90s,

00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 early 2000s Christian culture that was perhaps a little bit

00:05:02 --> 00:05:03 legalistic and

00:05:04 --> 00:05:10 pharisaical was trying to go too hard at good things and

00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 replacing a healthy

00:05:13 --> 00:05:16 relationship with Jesus with doing what looks to be the

00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 biblical right thing.

00:05:18 --> 00:05:19 Come to church every Sunday,

00:05:19 --> 00:05:20 read your Bible every day,

00:05:20 --> 00:05:21 pray every day,

00:05:21 --> 00:05:23 everything will be fine and you'll have no problems.

00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 Don't drink, don't smoke, don't have sex and life will be good.

00:05:26 --> 00:05:30 Yeah, those are overreactions to... Throw your CDs into a fire.

00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 Now that one you just should do.

00:05:31 --> 00:05:32 Say no to drugs.

00:05:32 --> 00:05:34 Mostly because you don't have anywhere to play your CDs anymore.

00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 But like, yeah, I think that there's so many pieces of it to break down.

00:05:38 --> 00:05:40 I'm trying to figure out where I'm starting.

00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 Fix the problems of the world right now, Brian.

00:05:42 --> 00:05:42 Here I go.

00:05:42 --> 00:05:43 Do it.

00:05:43 --> 00:05:43 How long do I have?

00:05:43 --> 00:05:44 Like three minutes?

00:05:44 --> 00:05:44 Go for it.

00:05:45 --> 00:05:45 Easy.

00:05:45 --> 00:05:51 I do think that there was a culture of pharisaicalness,

00:05:52 --> 00:05:52 if that's a word,

00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 that needed to be combated.

00:05:54 --> 00:05:54 However,

00:05:55 --> 00:06:02 combating it by saying we need to give up on biblical standards

00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 of living is not helpful.

00:06:04 --> 00:06:08 I think that part of what it means to come to Jesus is to find

00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 freedom from sinful things.

00:06:11 --> 00:06:11 Yeah.

00:06:12 --> 00:06:17 The problem with the Pharisaical culture of 90s and early 2000s churches,

00:06:17 --> 00:06:18 and let's be real,

00:06:18 --> 00:06:20 of many churches still today,

00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 the problem with the Pharisaical culture is exactly the problem

00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 that Paul addressed

00:06:26 --> 00:06:26 in Galatians.

00:06:26 --> 00:06:26 Right.

00:06:27 --> 00:06:31 It's you were meant to have this free relationship with Jesus,

00:06:31 --> 00:06:35 but now you're believing the lie that unless you do these good things,

00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 you can't have relationship with Jesus.

00:06:38 --> 00:06:39 And he was saying that is untrue.

00:06:39 --> 00:06:41 That's a problem.

00:06:41 --> 00:06:42 You can't live like that.

00:06:43 --> 00:06:47 It's almost like this idea of you need to come to God,

00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 but you can't because of your sin.

00:06:50 --> 00:06:54 So you need to go and fix your sin and then you can come to God

00:06:54 --> 00:06:55 and experience him

00:06:55 --> 00:06:56 and he'll accept you.

00:06:56 --> 00:06:57 That's kind of how it was framed.

00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 And you're saying it needs to be, it's putting the cart before the horse.

00:07:00 --> 00:07:00 We say,

00:07:01 --> 00:07:01 you've got problems,

00:07:02 --> 00:07:02 come to Jesus,

00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 and then let's talk about your problems.

00:07:05 --> 00:07:05 Exactly.

00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 And now let's even use the example of going to a doctor.

00:07:10 --> 00:07:10 Like,

00:07:10 --> 00:07:11 let's say that you have,

00:07:11 --> 00:07:12 I don't know,

00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 like back pain,

00:07:13 --> 00:07:14 anything that isn't COVID.

00:07:14 --> 00:07:15 I just don't want to use COVID.

00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 Fix your back pain and then you can come to the doctor.

00:07:18 --> 00:07:19 Yeah.

00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 Like that's a ridiculous reason to go to the doctor.

00:07:22 --> 00:07:23 But at the same time,

00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 if you went to the doctor and they were just like,

00:07:25 --> 00:07:25 hey,

00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 a lot of people's back hurts,

00:07:27 --> 00:07:27 you know,

00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 like that's just kind of a thing.

00:07:29 --> 00:07:30 It's actually pretty cool.

00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 That's kind of what happens with backs.

00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 It's just something backs do.

00:07:37 --> 00:07:38 That doesn't fix your issue.

00:07:39 --> 00:07:43 That doesn't help you move beyond the problem that you have.

00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 So on the pharisaical side,

00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 it's replacing one bondage with another bondage.

00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 On the overly accepting side,

00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 I suppose we'll call it,

00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 it's never helping people get out of bondage in the first place.

00:07:58 --> 00:07:59 Yeah.

00:07:59 --> 00:07:59 Oh,

00:07:59 --> 00:08:01 so I've heard a really,

00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 really good thing from some of the pastors you and I look up to,

00:08:04 --> 00:08:06 like guys like John Mark Comer.

00:08:06 --> 00:08:10 I've seen this idea float around sort of the Instagram story

00:08:10 --> 00:08:12 sphere where people

00:08:12 --> 00:08:13 post their thoughts and hot takes.

00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 And I don't think this just comes from them.

00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 I'm pretty sure this might have originated with Mark Sayers.

00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 But the idea is that in the,

00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 at least in our lifetime,

00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 the Pharisees of the past were the conservatives.

00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 And it was this legalism of,

00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 Here are the moral standards that you must keep in order to come to God.

00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 They've been saying that the new Pharisees of the moment are actually the

00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 progressives because they're the ones who are saying,

00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 if you want to be a truly actualized person,

00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 here are the standards you must comply to.

00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 You can't think this is wrong.

00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 you can't think this thing is wrong.

00:08:46 --> 00:08:47 You have to accept this.

00:08:47 --> 00:08:48 You have to be open to this.

00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 If you speak out against this in any way,

00:08:51 --> 00:08:52 or say the Bible says this or whatever,

00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 you're a bigot and you're a horrible person.

00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 Do you get what I'm saying?

00:08:56 --> 00:09:00 It's like, it's this reverse Pharisee and Sadducee idea.

00:09:00 --> 00:09:01 It's the flip side of it.

00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 It's all the kingdom without the king.

00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 Hey everybody, this is Aaron from the future.

00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 And as I was listening to myself talk about this,

00:09:21 --> 00:09:23 I really didn't think I did it justice.

00:09:24 --> 00:09:28 So I decided to insert a clip from an amazing podcast,

00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 one that you should be listening to much better than this podcast.

00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 It's a podcast called This Cultural Moment with John Mark Comer

00:09:34 --> 00:09:35 and Mark Sayers.

00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 And I'm just going to play a clip from their conversation from

00:09:39 --> 00:09:40 an episode entitled

00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 Progressives as the New Pharisees and the Immorality of the

00:09:43 --> 00:09:44 Christian Sex Ethic.

00:09:45 --> 00:09:46 It's about two minute clip.

00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 Listen to this and then we'll jump back into the episode with

00:09:48 --> 00:09:48 me and Brian.

00:09:49 --> 00:09:50 So in this reactionary moment,

00:09:50 --> 00:09:54 does politics become the new religion for a secular society?

00:09:54 --> 00:09:55 Absolutely.

00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 So one of the things that's fascinating that a lot of people

00:09:58 --> 00:09:59 are still struggling

00:09:59 --> 00:10:00 to get their head around.

00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 is there's this move towards relevance where all of a sudden

00:10:03 --> 00:10:04 the Christians all of

00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 a sudden want to chill out and be cool and accepting and not be

00:10:08 --> 00:10:09 so hung up on stuff

00:10:09 --> 00:10:10 and not be fundamentalists.

00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 Not be all angry.

00:10:12 --> 00:10:13 Not be angry.

00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 We don't even have to legislate and go to Washington, D.C.

00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 We'll do our own thing.

00:10:17 --> 00:10:18 So you've got that moment.

00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 But just as that is happening,

00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 you've then got this puritanical tone to some of the left where

00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 the left then moves

00:10:25 --> 00:10:30 into what Yuval Levin talks about as they've won the culture war

00:10:30 --> 00:10:31 So they've defined sexuality.

00:10:32 --> 00:10:33 Their vision is now winning.

00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 So what they've got to do is defend that turf.

00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 So for a lot of the time,

00:10:38 --> 00:10:39 before this moment,

00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 the left was on the periphery.

00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 The left was in the minority position.

00:10:43 --> 00:10:45 It could do radical art projects.

00:10:45 --> 00:10:46 Andy Warhol could shoot...

00:10:47 --> 00:10:48 you know, radical art films.

00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 You could have rock and roll, could protest.

00:10:50 --> 00:10:50 You know,

00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 you could have performances on university campuses where you

00:10:54 --> 00:10:55 did shocking things

00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 because you were in the minority position.

00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 But then when you're occupying the commanding heights of the

00:11:01 --> 00:11:02 moral culture,

00:11:03 --> 00:11:04 you have to defend it.

00:11:04 --> 00:11:05 So you've got a censor.

00:11:05 --> 00:11:10 You've got to use shame as a tool of defining behavior.

00:11:10 --> 00:11:11 So we're in this strange...

00:11:11 --> 00:11:15 So the left almost becomes like the Pharisees of post-Christian culture.

00:11:15 --> 00:11:16 Yeah,

00:11:16 --> 00:11:16 so it's,

00:11:16 --> 00:11:16 you know,

00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 it was a Reverend Lovejoy's wife on The Simpsons,

00:11:19 --> 00:11:20 that sort of church lady who,

00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 I think Dana Carvey had that church lady sort of character.

00:11:23 --> 00:11:24 All of a sudden,

00:11:24 --> 00:11:26 the progressive left sounds like that,

00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 just at the time when the Christians are trying to be

00:11:28 --> 00:11:29 completely sort of open-minded.

00:11:29 --> 00:11:34 Yeah, it's judgmental, it's angry, it's self-righteous, it's puritanical.

00:11:34 --> 00:11:35 If you step out of line,

00:11:35 --> 00:11:36 if you say the wrong thing,

00:11:36 --> 00:11:37 if you believe the wrong thing—

00:11:38 --> 00:11:39 You are just jumped on.

00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 But how you live is like, ah, whatever.

00:11:41 --> 00:11:42 Nobody's really paying attention.

00:11:42 --> 00:11:44 But if you stand for the wrong thing or vote for the wrong thing,

00:11:45 --> 00:11:45 you are the evil.

00:11:45 --> 00:11:46 Like that's,

00:11:46 --> 00:11:47 that's the,

00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 like the worst of 1980s Christian fundamentalists that I

00:11:50 --> 00:11:51 remember growing up.

00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 You hear the soundbite of Falwell, whoever on TV and you just cringe.

00:11:56 --> 00:11:57 Like the heart posture is nothing like Jesus.

00:11:57 --> 00:11:59 It's Phariseeism for them.

00:11:59 --> 00:12:01 But now it's coming from the left.

00:12:09 --> 00:12:10 It's one of those things where,

00:12:10 --> 00:12:10 you know,

00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 I hope no one listening to this thinks I'm not one of those people who,

00:12:14 --> 00:12:14 you know,

00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 the type of people who are like free speech advocates where it's like,

00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 people should be able to say whatever the heck they want

00:12:19 --> 00:12:20 whenever they want to

00:12:20 --> 00:12:21 because that's America.

00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 I think as Christians, our words matter.

00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 We should guard our speech and guard our tongues, like the Bible says.

00:12:27 --> 00:12:30 When it comes to speaking out against sin,

00:12:30 --> 00:12:32 we absolutely must speak in truth,

00:12:33 --> 00:12:35 but it must be laced with love.

00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 There must be so much compassion there.

00:12:38 --> 00:12:39 for the person lost in sin,

00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 remembering that we too were lost in sin without Jesus.

00:12:43 --> 00:12:44 So I'm not one of those people that's like,

00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 I should be able to say whatever bigoted thing I want to say.

00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 But I also think that there is truth that actually is not

00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 bigotry if it's said the right way.

00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 Sometimes truth can be communicated in a way that is totally...

00:12:55 --> 00:12:55 Yeah.

00:13:13 --> 00:13:13 Absolutely.

00:13:14 --> 00:13:14 Yeah.

00:13:14 --> 00:13:20 And and it's finding that standard in what is biblical and not

00:13:20 --> 00:13:21 what is cultural.

00:13:22 --> 00:13:23 That to me is the biggest thing,

00:13:23 --> 00:13:28 because I do think that there were moments when I looked at

00:13:28 --> 00:13:29 that kind of old school

00:13:29 --> 00:13:31 pharisaical culture,

00:13:31 --> 00:13:32 looking back to like 90s,

00:13:32 --> 00:13:33 early 2000s.

00:13:33 --> 00:13:36 And there's things that in certain places you could look at and

00:13:36 --> 00:13:37 say that sounded

00:13:38 --> 00:13:38 good to you,

00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 but that wasn't necessarily founded in scripture.

00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 And that's where the problem came in.

00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 And the same thing is now happening on the other side where it's,

00:13:45 --> 00:13:46 oh,

00:13:46 --> 00:13:47 you can't tell me this,

00:13:47 --> 00:13:48 this and that is wrong.

00:13:48 --> 00:13:48 It's like, you're right.

00:13:48 --> 00:13:50 I can't tell you that it's wrong.

00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 But the Bible is showing us that we're called to live by a

00:13:54 --> 00:13:55 different standard than

00:13:55 --> 00:13:56 what you're putting forward.

00:13:56 --> 00:13:58 And so in any moment,

00:13:58 --> 00:14:02 it has to come back to what is the standard that the Bible puts

00:14:02 --> 00:14:04 forward and what is

00:14:04 --> 00:14:08 the kind of relationship the Bible calls us into with God.

00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 And that always has to be what we're aiming for.

00:14:11 --> 00:14:11 Yeah,

00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 I feel like prime example that we could go to would probably be

00:14:15 --> 00:14:16 homosexuality because,

00:14:16 --> 00:14:17 you know,

00:14:17 --> 00:14:21 you and I would be guys who would hold to what's called

00:14:21 --> 00:14:22 non-affirming theology.

00:14:22 --> 00:14:26 That means that we would say for someone to practice their

00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 desire to be in a

00:14:28 --> 00:14:29 same-sex relationship,

00:14:29 --> 00:14:33 that would be against God's design and his plan.

00:14:33 --> 00:14:33 But with that,

00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 we have so much compassion for people who struggle with those things.

00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 But I feel like in the past,

00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 in the 90s and early 2000s,

00:14:41 --> 00:14:42 when we talked about homosexuality,

00:14:43 --> 00:14:43 it was just like,

00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 it was this very conservative,

00:14:45 --> 00:14:46 no nuance.

00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 It was just basically like, it's a choice.

00:14:48 --> 00:14:49 It's a sin.

00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 You just need to choose not to sin, dude.

00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 Just get your act together.

00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 Just stop being attracted to other people.

00:14:55 --> 00:14:59 It was almost like it was this thought of anybody who was acting out on

00:14:59 --> 00:15:03 homosexuality was just like somebody who got up one day and was like,

00:15:03 --> 00:15:03 man,

00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 how can I rebel against God in the worst way possible?

00:15:07 --> 00:15:07 Yeah.

00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 And how can I just go out and fulfill the desire of my flesh?

00:15:11 --> 00:15:12 No one thinks that way.

00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 Like, no, I mean, most people don't think that way.

00:15:15 --> 00:15:15 Yeah.

00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 What we're dealing with is somebody who just like you and I are

00:15:18 --> 00:15:19 attracted to women.

00:15:19 --> 00:15:20 If we're using a guy,

00:15:20 --> 00:15:21 a gay guy,

00:15:22 --> 00:15:22 as an example,

00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 he's dealing with an attraction that is like chemical it's

00:15:27 --> 00:15:28 inside his body.

00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 Like he can't necessarily control it.

00:15:30 --> 00:15:34 It's not a choice to be attracted to somebody else necessarily.

00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 It's an involuntary reaction in your body.

00:15:38 --> 00:15:42 It's a far more complex thing than the way that you chose what

00:15:42 --> 00:15:43 you had for

00:15:43 --> 00:15:44 breakfast this morning.

00:15:44 --> 00:15:44 Yeah.

00:15:44 --> 00:15:45 And even that,

00:15:45 --> 00:15:48 you chose that breakfast because you were hungry for a specific

00:15:48 --> 00:15:49 type of breakfast.

00:15:49 --> 00:15:50 So even that plays into it.

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 So you've got like the extreme conservative 90s,

00:15:53 --> 00:15:55 early 2000s way of handling it,

00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 which is just pray the gay away.

00:15:57 --> 00:16:02 And then you progress now to we have a culture in a lot of

00:16:02 --> 00:16:03 churches where it's like,

00:16:03 --> 00:16:04 we're not going to talk about this.

00:16:05 --> 00:16:08 If you are someone who identifies as gay, that's great.

00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 There's even many churches that hold a theology,

00:16:11 --> 00:16:12 which I don't agree with.

00:16:12 --> 00:16:16 I can respect that a lot of people have actually done the work

00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 to try to parse

00:16:18 --> 00:16:19 through the scriptures and see how

00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 how homosexuality could fit into a Christian worldview.

00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 I just don't respect the conclusions that they've come to,

00:16:26 --> 00:16:27 and I would disagree with them.

00:16:28 --> 00:16:31 And let me just say this because I think it's really important to say.

00:16:31 --> 00:16:36 So the non-affirming theology is a theology that would hold to

00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 what is considered

00:16:37 --> 00:16:42 the historic Christian interpretation on sexuality,

00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 that sex and marriage was intended by God to be between a man

00:16:46 --> 00:16:46 and a woman.

00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 Now, I want to be really clear here.

00:16:48 --> 00:16:52 If you're listening to this and maybe you would identify

00:16:52 --> 00:16:53 yourself as LGBT,

00:16:54 --> 00:16:54 if that's you,

00:16:55 --> 00:17:00 you may have heard many pastors or Christians talk about you like,

00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 oh man,

00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 anyone who practices that is disgusting and terrible and the

00:17:05 --> 00:17:06 worst of the worst.

00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 and i'll admit that is a common way that homosexuality and

00:17:10 --> 00:17:11 other lgbt issues have

00:17:11 --> 00:17:15 been talked about in the church i just want you to understand

00:17:15 --> 00:17:16 if you're listening

00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 to this that that's not how brian and i feel while we would hold to the

00:17:20 --> 00:17:24 interpretation of scripture that would say for someone to have

00:17:24 --> 00:17:25 same-sex attraction

00:17:26 --> 00:17:30 and then act out on it and give into that temptation we would

00:17:30 --> 00:17:31 consider that to be a

00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 sin we would not consider it to be the worst of the worst

00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 We don't consider it to be any worse than our own sins.

00:17:37 --> 00:17:42 And the reason that we even talk about this is because we

00:17:42 --> 00:17:43 believe that this is what

00:17:43 --> 00:17:46 the Bible says about sin regarding this issue.

00:17:47 --> 00:17:51 We love all people and we don't want anyone to be separated

00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 from God because of sin.

00:17:53 --> 00:17:58 So the reason that we hold this stance is not because we hate anyone,

00:17:58 --> 00:17:59 not because we look down on anyone.

00:17:59 --> 00:18:02 It's simply because this is the interpretation of the

00:18:02 --> 00:18:04 scriptures that we've landed

00:18:04 --> 00:18:05 on and that we're convinced is true.

00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 And so our heart for anyone struggling with same-sex attraction

00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 or any form of LGBT identity,

00:18:12 --> 00:18:14 our heart is honestly compassion.

00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 We want to see people come to Christ.

00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 And we know that's not going to happen if people are bullied

00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 and put down and mistreated.

00:18:22 --> 00:18:25 So I hope you understand that when we're talking about this,

00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 it's not coming from a place of superiority.

00:18:28 --> 00:18:30 It's not coming from a place of looking down on anyone.

00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 It's simply because this is what we believe the Bible says is true.

00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 And so just like anything else in the scriptures that we

00:18:36 --> 00:18:37 believe is true,

00:18:37 --> 00:18:38 we have to hold to it.

00:18:38 --> 00:18:42 But our heart is filled with compassion for anybody struggling

00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 with these very serious issues.

00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 And we want you to know as a listener, when we talk about this,

00:18:48 --> 00:18:49 We don't think less of you.

00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 And we hope that you would listen to the things that we say

00:18:53 --> 00:18:54 with an open heart and an open mind.

00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 If you're somebody who professes to be a Christian listening to this,

00:18:58 --> 00:19:00 we hope that you would pray about the words that we're saying

00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 and see if God would

00:19:02 --> 00:19:03 speak to you through it.

00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 So I just thought it was important to say that and to note that.

00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 So while I don't respect the conclusions,

00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 what I would say is that the answer isn't found in the past

00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 conservatism and the

00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 current modern progressive moment.

00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 For those of us like you and I who hold to a non-affirming theology,

00:19:18 --> 00:19:20 the answer is somewhere in the middle.

00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 And that's where we take the truth of the past,

00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 but then we can learn from the sensibilities of the moment to say,

00:19:26 --> 00:19:27 okay,

00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 we've learned that the way that we handled homosexual people in

00:19:30 --> 00:19:31 the past in the

00:19:31 --> 00:19:32 church was not good.

00:19:32 --> 00:19:35 And there's so many people that have been burned and scarred.

00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 They feel like they've been rejected from their church.

00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 They feel like they're the absolute worst of the worst people

00:19:40 --> 00:19:41 in existence.

00:19:41 --> 00:19:43 They feel like that's how they've been framed by their church.

00:19:43 --> 00:19:43 And so,

00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 so many of them have left the church and either run to churches

00:19:46 --> 00:19:47 that are more

00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 progressive and accepting while sacrificing what I would say is

00:19:50 --> 00:19:51 scriptural truth.

00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 And or even away from the church completely into the arms of a

00:19:55 --> 00:19:56 community that

00:19:56 --> 00:19:57 embraces them and says,

00:19:58 --> 00:19:58 hey,

00:19:58 --> 00:19:59 you don't need religion.

00:19:59 --> 00:20:00 You just need us.

00:20:00 --> 00:20:01 You don't need a savior.

00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 You just need us because we're going to validate you and support you.

00:20:04 --> 00:20:08 And I think the answer needs to be the church needs to be a

00:20:08 --> 00:20:09 safe place that

00:20:09 --> 00:20:11 somebody struggling with homosexuality can come to.

00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 And be accepted as a human being struggling with sin like anybody else.

00:20:17 --> 00:20:18 They need to be accepted.

00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 They also need to be just like anyone else in the church is

00:20:20 --> 00:20:21 going to be told you

00:20:22 --> 00:20:23 need to follow Jesus.

00:20:23 --> 00:20:27 You need to lay down your own wants and desires at whatever

00:20:27 --> 00:20:28 Jesus and scripture

00:20:28 --> 00:20:29 deems is the right thing.

00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 But that just needs to be handled with so much compassion and

00:20:33 --> 00:20:34 so much love.

00:20:34 --> 00:20:34 And that...

00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 I feel like the tendencies of a lot of churches is if they had

00:20:37 --> 00:20:38 a gay person in

00:20:38 --> 00:20:39 their church,

00:20:39 --> 00:20:40 they would consider like,

00:20:40 --> 00:20:41 okay,

00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 my main project is I need to convince this person that they

00:20:44 --> 00:20:44 need to stop being gay.

00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 And that's not how we should be treating anybody.

00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 Like we should be looking at the whole person and dealing with

00:20:51 --> 00:20:51 all of their

00:20:51 --> 00:20:53 struggles and not only that,

00:20:53 --> 00:20:54 but helping them grow.

00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 And I truly think that I'm seeing more churches do this.

00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 And I've heard of same-sex attracted people who have actually

00:21:01 --> 00:21:02 found Christian

00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 communities that love them despite what they struggle with.

00:21:06 --> 00:21:11 And it's helped a lot of people come to a place where they've

00:21:11 --> 00:21:12 decided to honor what

00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 Jesus says in scripture about sexuality,

00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 but they've found a community that helps them through that

00:21:18 --> 00:21:19 struggle without

00:21:19 --> 00:21:20 judgment or condemnation,

00:21:20 --> 00:21:20 which is,

00:21:21 --> 00:21:23 that's what we need to work to as the church,

00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 but it's really hard to get there for a lot of people.

00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 Linking this back to where we began a lot of these

00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 conversations around systemic racism,

00:21:45 --> 00:21:50 I was recently in the most insane DMV line that I've ever been in.

00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 And there was a girl behind me who

00:21:54 --> 00:21:55 who was like 17 or 18.

00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 And we were talking a little bit.

00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 She had a friend who was a guy who was like 20 or something like that.

00:22:02 --> 00:22:03 And we were all there for a long time.

00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 So it was really easy to just kind of take a moment and kind of

00:22:07 --> 00:22:07 get to know the

00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 people around you a little bit because we were all in the same

00:22:11 --> 00:22:12 terrible boat together.

00:22:12 --> 00:22:13 But that's neither here nor there.

00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 And at one point it came up that,

00:22:16 --> 00:22:16 you know,

00:22:16 --> 00:22:18 they asked what I did and,

00:22:18 --> 00:22:18 you know,

00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 I told them that I was moving from California and they're like,

00:22:21 --> 00:22:21 oh,

00:22:21 --> 00:22:22 why'd you go out there?

00:22:22 --> 00:22:23 And it's like,

00:22:23 --> 00:22:23 oh,

00:22:23 --> 00:22:23 well,

00:22:23 --> 00:22:26 I worked at a small Bible college and I got to teach the book

00:22:26 --> 00:22:27 of Matthew and I was

00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 sharing a little bit here and there.

00:22:29 --> 00:22:30 And through the course of the conversation,

00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 it came up that the girl that I was talking with either,

00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 I wasn't totally sure because she didn't get super into it,

00:22:38 --> 00:22:43 but either identified as bisexual or identified as lesbian

00:22:43 --> 00:22:48 was was definitely part of the lgbtq community in in some

00:22:48 --> 00:22:49 fashion i didn't really

00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 dive into specifics with her about it she didn't volunteer them

00:22:53 --> 00:22:53 and i didn't feel

00:22:53 --> 00:22:56 like it was my place to start asking for them so but one of the

00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 things that she

00:22:57 --> 00:23:02 said after that kind of came up was and i really hang on to the

00:23:03 --> 00:23:04 way she asked it

00:23:04 --> 00:23:09 She said, are you one of those Christians who's against gay people?

00:23:09 --> 00:23:09 Yeah.

00:23:09 --> 00:23:11 And it's one of those things where it's like,

00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 I know the way that we normally talk about it within the church

00:23:15 --> 00:23:16 of we can start

00:23:16 --> 00:23:20 diving into theological terms and we can start diving into how

00:23:20 --> 00:23:21 we read passages.

00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 But just the way that she said it,

00:23:23 --> 00:23:25 it means that in her mind,

00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 there are a lot of Christians who don't just like disagree with something,

00:23:30 --> 00:23:34 but are against the people who practice something.

00:23:34 --> 00:23:34 But

00:23:34 --> 00:23:37 are against people in a particular lifestyle.

00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 And that's what, like, that's what I responded to.

00:23:41 --> 00:23:42 I did not dive into,

00:23:42 --> 00:23:42 well,

00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 here's all of the passages that I could show you that prove blah,

00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 blah,

00:23:46 --> 00:23:46 blah.

00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 I didn't do any of that.

00:23:47 --> 00:23:48 I just looked at her and said,

00:23:48 --> 00:23:53 I just need you to know God is for people and I am too.

00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 God wants to see all people made whole and I want to see that

00:23:57 --> 00:23:58 happen as well.

00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 And I watched that kind of like disarm her a little bit.

00:24:02 --> 00:24:05 But it's like if I had just immediately responded to,

00:24:06 --> 00:24:06 well,

00:24:06 --> 00:24:11 I need to make sure that she knows my stance on homosexuality,

00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 we would have had zero conversation for the rest of the day.

00:24:15 --> 00:24:18 Or worse yet, we would have had really hostile conversation.

00:24:19 --> 00:24:19 Right.

00:24:19 --> 00:24:20 For the rest of the day.

00:24:20 --> 00:24:21 But to begin with,

00:24:21 --> 00:24:21 like,

00:24:21 --> 00:24:26 you need to know that God is for your wholeness and you may

00:24:26 --> 00:24:27 have different

00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 definitions from him about what your wholeness is.

00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 I have different definitions from God about what my wholeness is.

00:24:33 --> 00:24:34 I'm still learning that.

00:24:34 --> 00:24:34 Right.

00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 And and we didn't really end up having too much more

00:24:37 --> 00:24:39 conversation about that.

00:24:39 --> 00:24:41 But when her mom showed up later in the day,

00:24:41 --> 00:24:43 as we were getting closer towards the door,

00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 she was like introducing her mom to different people on the

00:24:47 --> 00:24:48 line around her.

00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 Like we had become this little like traveling community around

00:24:51 --> 00:24:51 the sitcom.

00:24:53 --> 00:24:58 It was the 2020 version of the Seinfeld episode where all they

00:24:58 --> 00:24:58 do is wait for a

00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 table at the Chinese restaurant.

00:25:00 --> 00:25:00 Oh, man.

00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 I'd love a sitcom just called The Line.

00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 It's six seasons about people.

00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 It's six seasons that takes place in the same DMV line.

00:25:09 --> 00:25:10 Oh, goodness.

00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 That would be a good YouTube show where every episode is only

00:25:14 --> 00:25:15 seven minutes.

00:25:15 --> 00:25:16 We can brainstorm that show later.

00:25:16 --> 00:25:17 So here's the thing.

00:25:17 --> 00:25:18 The way that you handled that.

00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 Wait, was there more to the story?

00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 When when her mom showed up later in the day and she was

00:25:24 --> 00:25:25 introducing her mom to

00:25:25 --> 00:25:26 different people,

00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 she introduced her mom to me and is like,

00:25:28 --> 00:25:28 oh,

00:25:29 --> 00:25:30 that guy's Brian.

00:25:30 --> 00:25:32 He he loves Jesus.

00:25:32 --> 00:25:33 He's a cool guy.

00:25:33 --> 00:25:38 no way and i remember just thinking i wonder when the last time

00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 was that she

00:25:40 --> 00:25:45 described a person as they love jesus and i also enjoy talking

00:25:45 --> 00:25:46 with them dude no

00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 that's and that that for me like it was such a small moment in

00:25:49 --> 00:25:50 the conversation

00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 where we were actually addressing that stuff and it's not like

00:25:53 --> 00:25:54 i immediately then

00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 turned around and was like and if you pray right now like for

00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 three easy payments of 39.95 you too can have the holy spirit

00:26:00 --> 00:26:01 like i didn't jump

00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 right into like salesman like evangelist or whatever i was just

00:26:04 --> 00:26:05 like lord thank you

00:26:06 --> 00:26:11 that she might now feel more comfortable when somebody around

00:26:11 --> 00:26:12 her says that they're

00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 a christian she might feel now like this conversation could

00:26:16 --> 00:26:17 actually go somewhere

00:26:17 --> 00:26:19 Dude, that made me so happy.

00:26:19 --> 00:26:20 It's huge.

00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 And I think it's so important because,

00:26:22 --> 00:26:23 you know,

00:26:23 --> 00:26:24 so the thing that struck me is she said,

00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 are you one of those Christians that are against gay people?

00:26:28 --> 00:26:32 The reason that she had to ask that question is because in the

00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 cultural mindset,

00:26:34 --> 00:26:35 and a lot of times as Christians,

00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 we don't think about how our actions as we're trying to police

00:26:40 --> 00:26:41 ourselves and our

00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 own community and sort of

00:26:42 --> 00:26:44 guard ourselves from the world.

00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 We don't often think about the aftermath and how the world

00:26:47 --> 00:26:49 perceives us and our

00:26:49 --> 00:26:51 role as having a witness in the world.

00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 Our witness is often compromised by our attempts to protect

00:26:54 --> 00:26:55 ourselves by the world.

00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 The reason that she felt the need to say that is because there

00:26:59 --> 00:27:00 have been Christians

00:27:00 --> 00:27:04 who have protested against gay marriage and that's been like

00:27:04 --> 00:27:05 their focus is we have

00:27:05 --> 00:27:06 to stop gay marriage.

00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 Well, for a non-Christian person, what does it seem like?

00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 It seems like the church is against me as a person.

00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 The church doesn't want me to be in love.

00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 The church doesn't want me to get married.

00:27:17 --> 00:27:18 In fact,

00:27:18 --> 00:27:22 the church is willing to legally try to stop me from falling in

00:27:22 --> 00:27:23 love and getting married.

00:27:23 --> 00:27:24 As Christians,

00:27:25 --> 00:27:29 it's like we don't often think about what our actions look like to the

00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 non-Christian world and how it can be hurtful.

00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 Even if we're standing up for what we believe is biblically true,

00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 the way that we do it

00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 can often make it seem like we are opposed to the very people

00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 we're trying to help.

00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 And, you know, I had a very similar situation on a plane.

00:27:45 --> 00:27:49 I sat down next to a brother and sister and I actually thought

00:27:49 --> 00:27:50 at first it was two

00:27:50 --> 00:27:54 brothers because the girl had a very kind of masculine look.

00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 And once I started talking to both of them, I kind of caught on.

00:27:57 --> 00:27:57 I was like,

00:27:57 --> 00:27:57 okay,

00:27:58 --> 00:27:58 I think this,

00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 I think this he is actually possibly a she,

00:28:01 --> 00:28:02 but I'm not sure.

00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 And we just started talking and, and

00:28:04 --> 00:28:07 I just, you know, very naturally explained that I'm a youth pastor.

00:28:08 --> 00:28:11 And the conversation took the same kind of turn where she was like,

00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 are you one of those Christians that is against gay people?

00:28:14 --> 00:28:14 You know,

00:28:14 --> 00:28:18 because I'm I'm I am a girl,

00:28:18 --> 00:28:19 but I identify as a guy,

00:28:19 --> 00:28:20 you know,

00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 and there was some other LGBT stuff that was mixed in with her thing.

00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 And I just got a chance to just love on that brother and sister

00:28:26 --> 00:28:27 and just share with

00:28:27 --> 00:28:31 them about Jesus and how God is for them and not against them

00:28:31 --> 00:28:32 and how I am.

00:28:32 --> 00:28:33 Same type of thing.

00:28:33 --> 00:28:34 And then they asked me,

00:28:34 --> 00:28:35 well,

00:28:35 --> 00:28:35 do you think,

00:28:35 --> 00:28:35 you know,

00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 homosexuality is a sin?

00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 And I was able to tell them truthfully what I thought,

00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 but I tried to like bend over backwards to say it in the least

00:28:45 --> 00:28:46 offensive way as possible.

00:28:46 --> 00:28:48 And I know some people would dog me for that and say,

00:28:48 --> 00:28:48 oh,

00:28:48 --> 00:28:49 you know,

00:28:49 --> 00:28:49 they're

00:28:49 --> 00:28:51 They're just snowflakes and you need to be willing to preach

00:28:51 --> 00:28:52 the truth boldly.

00:28:53 --> 00:28:53 But honestly,

00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 like I am so convicted that people are so wounded and scarred

00:28:57 --> 00:28:58 like in this cultural

00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 moment that they need us to take extra care to communicate the

00:29:02 --> 00:29:03 truth in love.

00:29:03 --> 00:29:07 And so I did communicate what I felt to be true about homosexuality,

00:29:07 --> 00:29:09 but I tried to do it in that loving way.

00:29:09 --> 00:29:10 And it was crazy.

00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 Like they listened and they were open and they heard what I

00:29:13 --> 00:29:14 said and they were

00:29:14 --> 00:29:15 willing to like discuss it with me.

00:29:16 --> 00:29:17 And as I got off the plane,

00:29:17 --> 00:29:21 their dad was actually sitting in the aisle next to me and he was like,

00:29:21 --> 00:29:22 he stopped me and he was like,

00:29:22 --> 00:29:23 thank you so much.

00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 You know, I'm a Christian.

00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 I don't really agree with what my daughter is doing and what

00:29:27 --> 00:29:28 she's going through,

00:29:28 --> 00:29:29 but you're the,

00:29:29 --> 00:29:32 you're the first person in ministry that's ever talked to her

00:29:32 --> 00:29:32 this way in a way

00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 that's loving and kind and

00:29:34 --> 00:29:36 you know, he, he was, he was tearing up when he was saying it.

00:29:36 --> 00:29:37 And it was crazy.

00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 Like I actually ended up in a little group chat with her and

00:29:40 --> 00:29:41 her brother for a few

00:29:41 --> 00:29:43 months after that plane trip on Instagram.

00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 And we continued to talk and they were asking me questions about Jesus.

00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 And she actually gave her life back to the Lord.

00:29:49 --> 00:29:50 It's been a long time since I've talked to her,

00:29:51 --> 00:29:52 so I don't know how she's doing now,

00:29:52 --> 00:29:53 but like it was,

00:29:53 --> 00:29:55 there was some tangible fruit from that experience.

00:29:55 --> 00:29:56 And you know,

00:29:56 --> 00:29:56 I'm,

00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 I'm getting emotional even right now talking about this and

00:29:59 --> 00:30:00 remembering and cause

00:30:00 --> 00:30:01 your story kind of triggered that in me,

00:30:01 --> 00:30:02 but it's amazing.

00:30:02 --> 00:30:03 Like, yeah,

00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 It's so it's there's something that's incredibly encouraging

00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 about that because it

00:30:09 --> 00:30:14 shows that there is a way to break through with people that we

00:30:14 --> 00:30:15 normally in churches

00:30:15 --> 00:30:16 look at and say,

00:30:16 --> 00:30:18 there's no way that we could break through to them.

00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 It's just there's there's some really encouraging parts in that.

00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 But I can't help but like hear that story and just feel sad

00:30:26 --> 00:30:27 because that that dad

00:30:27 --> 00:30:28 was like,

00:30:28 --> 00:30:32 you're the first you're the first person who preaches the fact

00:30:32 --> 00:30:34 that God is love and

00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 you actually displayed that love.

00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 You're the first one that did that.

00:30:39 --> 00:30:40 And that was all that she needed.

00:30:40 --> 00:30:43 It's like that's so discouraging to me that like the answer was

00:30:43 --> 00:30:44 so simple.

00:30:44 --> 00:30:44 Yeah.

00:30:44 --> 00:30:47 And yet no one was willing to put that forward.

00:30:47 --> 00:30:51 Because it's just it's so much easier to attack somebody's

00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 beliefs or worldview and

00:30:53 --> 00:30:57 just throw the verses at them and try to destroy their ideology

00:30:57 --> 00:30:57 and worldview

00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 because you see it as a threat.

00:30:59 --> 00:30:59 But I mean,

00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 it goes back to Jesus with the prostitutes and tax collectors.

00:31:02 --> 00:31:06 How would he have gotten that identity of the friend of sinners

00:31:06 --> 00:31:08 if he was not being

00:31:08 --> 00:31:09 friendly to them?

00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 And we talked about this way back in the righteousness miniseries,

00:31:12 --> 00:31:16 but I am sure that when Jesus was sitting around those dinner tables with

00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 prostitutes and tax collectors,

00:31:18 --> 00:31:21 there were conversations that came up about what they did for

00:31:21 --> 00:31:22 their profession.

00:31:22 --> 00:31:27 And I'm sure that Jesus lovingly steered them away from that,

00:31:27 --> 00:31:28 you know,

00:31:28 --> 00:31:29 like talking to a prostitute and saying,

00:31:29 --> 00:31:29 Hey,

00:31:29 --> 00:31:30 listen,

00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 like you can be a part of God's kingdom and you don't have to

00:31:33 --> 00:31:33 sell yourself.

00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 You don't have to let men take advantage of you.

00:31:36 --> 00:31:36 Like I'm

00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 I'm calling you to something greater and bigger.

00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 Like, won't you join me in that?

00:31:40 --> 00:31:41 And it's,

00:31:41 --> 00:31:41 I mean,

00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 it would be easy for that prostitute to feel insulted and like,

00:31:44 --> 00:31:45 that's my profession.

00:31:45 --> 00:31:46 That's what I do.

00:31:46 --> 00:31:47 How dare you, Jesus?

00:31:47 --> 00:31:47 But,

00:31:48 --> 00:31:50 and I'm sure that he did have moments where people rejected him

00:31:50 --> 00:31:51 like that,

00:31:51 --> 00:31:52 but his MO was,

00:31:52 --> 00:31:53 he was known.

00:31:53 --> 00:31:57 His reputation was the friend of sinners specifically because

00:31:57 --> 00:31:58 he took the time to

00:31:58 --> 00:32:03 be friends with them and to love them without ever compromising truth.

00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 We never see Jesus affirming anyone's sin.

00:32:06 --> 00:32:06 In fact,

00:32:06 --> 00:32:07 with the 12 disciples,

00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 there's several times where they do stupid things and Jesus is

00:32:10 --> 00:32:11 actually like pretty

00:32:11 --> 00:32:12 critical of them,

00:32:13 --> 00:32:13 you know?

00:32:13 --> 00:32:15 So like Jesus definitely had an edge to him as well,

00:32:16 --> 00:32:17 but it's just,

00:32:17 --> 00:32:17 man,

00:32:17 --> 00:32:18 Jesus is the model for us.

00:32:19 --> 00:32:20 It's truth and love balanced together.

00:32:21 --> 00:32:22 And I think there is a way to do it.

00:32:32 --> 00:32:33 Okay.

00:32:33 --> 00:32:34 Here's my,

00:32:34 --> 00:32:37 I'm going to push back on everything you and I just said for a second.

00:32:37 --> 00:32:37 Perfect.

00:32:37 --> 00:32:38 Let's do it.

00:32:38 --> 00:32:39 I'm going to play devil's advocate.

00:32:40 --> 00:32:40 Okay.

00:32:40 --> 00:32:43 So I think you and I have a sensitivity towards people who've

00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 been burned by the

00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 church and people who struggle with things like these issues of sexuality,

00:32:49 --> 00:32:50 like especially as youth pastors,

00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 we've seen kids struggle with this.

00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 So we have a heart when someone approaches us to just be soft

00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 and gentle and speak truth,

00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 but just it's so dosed in love,

00:32:59 --> 00:32:59 you know?

00:32:59 --> 00:33:02 So if you're standing in that DMV line and you're talking about

00:33:02 --> 00:33:03 how you're a pastor

00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 and it's not a LGBT girl that you're talking to,

00:33:06 --> 00:33:08 but a middle aged white,

00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 white supremacist man.

00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 And he's talking to you and he's like,

00:33:12 --> 00:33:12 hey,

00:33:13 --> 00:33:15 he's talking about all his horrible racist views.

00:33:15 --> 00:33:15 And he goes,

00:33:15 --> 00:33:16 hey,

00:33:16 --> 00:33:19 you're not one of those pastors that's against white supremacists,

00:33:19 --> 00:33:19 are you?

00:33:19 --> 00:33:20 How do you respond in that moment?

00:33:21 --> 00:33:21 Oh, man.

00:33:22 --> 00:33:22 Wow.

00:33:23 --> 00:33:23 Wow.

00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 My knee jerk reaction would be to correct him to be like,

00:33:26 --> 00:33:27 actually,

00:33:27 --> 00:33:27 I am against that.

00:33:27 --> 00:33:28 And here's why you should be.

00:33:28 --> 00:33:29 I'm just being honest.

00:33:29 --> 00:33:33 I mean, I'm trying to challenge myself here and you.

00:33:33 --> 00:33:33 Yeah.

00:33:33 --> 00:33:35 I mean, yeah, that's it.

00:33:35 --> 00:33:40 It's a good challenge because I do think I would probably.

00:33:40 --> 00:33:41 Yeah,

00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 I do think I would push back on him and be like,

00:33:43 --> 00:33:44 would you respond to be like,

00:33:44 --> 00:33:44 hey,

00:33:44 --> 00:33:45 listen,

00:33:45 --> 00:33:46 God is for people.

00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 OK, like, would you say the same thing you said to that girl to him?

00:33:49 --> 00:33:49 I mean,

00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 I probably should say the same thing to him,

00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 but I think I would have been doing it to try to show him up a

00:33:56 --> 00:33:56 little bit.

00:33:56 --> 00:33:57 So like with that girl,

00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 I was trying to say God is for people to remind her God is on

00:34:01 --> 00:34:02 her side and God

00:34:02 --> 00:34:05 wants her to have a loving relationship with him.

00:34:06 --> 00:34:06 Yeah.

00:34:07 --> 00:34:08 With the white supremacist,

00:34:08 --> 00:34:10 it would have been from the standpoint of like,

00:34:11 --> 00:34:11 yeah,

00:34:11 --> 00:34:13 God is for all people.

00:34:13 --> 00:34:15 You know, the thing that you don't do.

00:34:15 --> 00:34:16 Like I would have been trying to like...

00:34:18 --> 00:34:20 rub his nose in the fact that he's wrong.

00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 So that's and I feel like I might do the same thing.

00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 So that's kind of exposing a little hypocrisy on our end.

00:34:25 --> 00:34:28 But but, you know, OK, so there's a track with me.

00:34:28 --> 00:34:30 Like, let me know if you think this is right.

00:34:30 --> 00:34:31 I feel like there's a couple different things at play.

00:34:32 --> 00:34:32 One,

00:34:32 --> 00:34:35 I feel like our attitudes change when we're dealing with

00:34:35 --> 00:34:37 somebody who is in a place

00:34:37 --> 00:34:40 of power and they're harming someone else.

00:34:40 --> 00:34:41 So that's a white supremacist.

00:34:42 --> 00:34:44 They're in a place of power and they're harming someone else.

00:34:45 --> 00:34:46 In the case of the LGBT girl,

00:34:46 --> 00:34:51 she's in a position where she's probably been rejected,

00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 ostracized by Christians.

00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 It's sort of in a place of not being in power.

00:34:57 --> 00:34:58 And so the heart is like,

00:34:58 --> 00:35:02 I want to show this person that I am not against them and I

00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 want to help bring them

00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 back to a place of restoration with God.

00:35:05 --> 00:35:06 Yeah.

00:35:23 --> 00:35:24 It's like,

00:35:24 --> 00:35:25 I feel like I want,

00:35:25 --> 00:35:29 I want to fight him because he's in a place of power,

00:35:29 --> 00:35:30 abusing somebody else.

00:35:30 --> 00:35:32 Somebody who's homosexual,

00:35:32 --> 00:35:34 they're not really hurting anyone,

00:35:34 --> 00:35:35 but them themselves,

00:35:35 --> 00:35:36 just like I would say,

00:35:36 --> 00:35:37 you know,

00:35:37 --> 00:35:39 a straight person sleeping with their girlfriend or boyfriend.

00:35:39 --> 00:35:40 You know,

00:35:40 --> 00:35:42 if it's consensual and they love each other,

00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 it's like it's not the same thing as somebody hating somebody

00:35:46 --> 00:35:46 else or hurting or

00:35:46 --> 00:35:48 doing violence against someone else.

00:35:48 --> 00:35:50 It's it's two people making a mistake.

00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 So there is a desire to help them come out of that mistake.

00:35:53 --> 00:35:55 But there's not this strong sense of like,

00:35:55 --> 00:35:58 I need to rebuke this person because they're hurting somebody else.

00:35:58 --> 00:36:00 But all that being said,

00:36:00 --> 00:36:04 I think that I would need a greater level of compassion for the

00:36:04 --> 00:36:05 white supremacist.

00:36:05 --> 00:36:09 to realize that that is somebody who is in bondage to a

00:36:09 --> 00:36:10 horrible ideology that is

00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 doing them harm as well as other people harm.

00:36:13 --> 00:36:16 And so the goal still is rescue.

00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 It's still this person needs Jesus, you know?

00:36:18 --> 00:36:19 No,

00:36:19 --> 00:36:22 I think it's interesting that you brought up the power dynamic

00:36:22 --> 00:36:22 because one of the

00:36:22 --> 00:36:26 things I was thinking about when we were talking about Jesus as

00:36:26 --> 00:36:27 the friend of

00:36:27 --> 00:36:27 sinners and,

00:36:27 --> 00:36:28 you know,

00:36:28 --> 00:36:31 the friend of prostitutes and the lowly,

00:36:31 --> 00:36:31 like,

00:36:31 --> 00:36:36 Back in Jesus's day, he was living in an honor shame culture.

00:36:36 --> 00:36:37 Yeah.

00:36:37 --> 00:36:40 And you were your highest goal was to bring honor to your

00:36:41 --> 00:36:42 family or your country or

00:36:42 --> 00:36:43 whatever group you were part of.

00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 And the worst thing you could do was to bring shame onto your

00:36:47 --> 00:36:48 group or your family or whatever.

00:36:49 --> 00:36:52 And you did that through class,

00:36:52 --> 00:36:53 through birth,

00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 through status and through occupation.

00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 And so part of what was going on in the dynamic was

00:36:58 --> 00:37:04 of Jesus being willing to meet and sit down and share a meal

00:37:04 --> 00:37:05 with a prostitute was

00:37:06 --> 00:37:07 he was undoing.

00:37:07 --> 00:37:12 Hey, culture has made you to feel like you are shameful as a person.

00:37:13 --> 00:37:16 And I am here to bring some of that dignity back to you.

00:37:16 --> 00:37:18 You are still human.

00:37:18 --> 00:37:19 You are still worthy of love.

00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 And God still wants real right relationship with you.

00:37:23 --> 00:37:27 The group that he seems to be the hardest on is the Pharisees.

00:37:27 --> 00:37:30 But that that's the illustration where we'd be talking about a

00:37:30 --> 00:37:31 Christian who would

00:37:31 --> 00:37:34 be a white supremacist and interpreting scripture incorrectly

00:37:34 --> 00:37:35 because the Pharisees

00:37:35 --> 00:37:36 were the religious.

00:37:36 --> 00:37:36 Yeah.

00:37:36 --> 00:37:37 Yeah.

00:37:37 --> 00:37:39 They were the pre-Christians in essence.

00:37:39 --> 00:37:41 They were the ones who were warping religion.

00:37:42 --> 00:37:44 They were following the Torah very strictly.

00:37:44 --> 00:37:47 And Pharisees actually get a bad rap because if you think about it,

00:37:47 --> 00:37:47 they were.

00:37:48 --> 00:37:51 people who really tried to love God and tried to keep his commandments.

00:37:51 --> 00:37:56 And they saw themselves as the cultural gatekeepers for religion.

00:37:56 --> 00:37:57 And they were,

00:37:57 --> 00:37:57 a lot of them,

00:37:57 --> 00:37:57 I think,

00:37:57 --> 00:37:59 had the right intentions of like,

00:37:59 --> 00:38:02 we need to protect Israel and we need to get them back on the

00:38:02 --> 00:38:03 right track religiously.

00:38:03 --> 00:38:05 And so they saw Jesus as a threat.

00:38:05 --> 00:38:06 That's a whole spiral there.

00:38:06 --> 00:38:09 There's a whole different set of circumstances,

00:38:09 --> 00:38:12 but the idea of power playing into it.

00:38:12 --> 00:38:12 Right.

00:38:12 --> 00:38:16 I think is a very worthy observation.

00:38:16 --> 00:38:17 And I also think that,

00:38:17 --> 00:38:18 like you were pointing out,

00:38:19 --> 00:38:23 I feel like if I try to put myself in the situation of how

00:38:23 --> 00:38:24 would I handle it,

00:38:24 --> 00:38:28 but also in a way that I feel is realistic to who I am as a person,

00:38:28 --> 00:38:31 like I don't want to just project myself into the perfect response,

00:38:31 --> 00:38:31 but...

00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 what's like the best case scenario of what i would do in the in

00:38:34 --> 00:38:36 that moment i i do

00:38:36 --> 00:38:40 think i would want to try to do a lot of learning you know i i

00:38:40 --> 00:38:42 don't often talk to

00:38:42 --> 00:38:47 white supremacists and i right i only really like i know like

00:38:47 --> 00:38:48 the black and white

00:38:48 --> 00:38:52 film of like klansmen doing terrible things and i know like the

00:38:52 --> 00:38:53 modern spike lee

00:38:53 --> 00:38:56 fill of black black klansmen like i i know kind of like those

00:38:56 --> 00:38:57 kind of kind of

00:38:57 --> 00:38:57 things but like

00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 They're almost comical pictures in the sense of like they're to

00:39:01 --> 00:39:02 the extreme,

00:39:02 --> 00:39:04 not that there's like any humor or anything like that.

00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 Like they're these caricatures,

00:39:06 --> 00:39:06 I should say,

00:39:07 --> 00:39:09 of what that kind of person would be.

00:39:09 --> 00:39:13 So dealing with an actual person who thinks that way,

00:39:13 --> 00:39:15 there's a lot of questions I would have.

00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 I don't really know what that would mean.

00:39:18 --> 00:39:22 But I know that the thing in the back of my mind that would be

00:39:22 --> 00:39:23 the alarm that would

00:39:23 --> 00:39:27 be going off is this is potentially a very violent person.

00:39:28 --> 00:39:28 Yeah.

00:39:28 --> 00:39:34 And I want to make sure that if I'm with someone that I believe

00:39:34 --> 00:39:36 could go on to be violent,

00:39:36 --> 00:39:39 I need to try to do things to stop that violence.

00:39:40 --> 00:39:40 Right.

00:39:40 --> 00:39:40 Yeah.

00:39:40 --> 00:39:42 Somebody who could go on.

00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 Is there a cop I need to go report this guy to?

00:39:45 --> 00:39:46 Yeah.

00:39:46 --> 00:39:46 Like,

00:39:46 --> 00:39:48 is there a way that I need to take like,

00:39:48 --> 00:39:49 unfortunately,

00:39:49 --> 00:39:53 I'd probably stop thinking about that guy's soul and start

00:39:53 --> 00:39:54 thinking about the kind

00:39:55 --> 00:39:56 of social ills that he could do.

00:39:56 --> 00:40:00 And I would be focused on trying to help the people that he

00:40:00 --> 00:40:01 wants to go marginalize

00:40:02 --> 00:40:04 from being potentially marginalized by him.

00:40:04 --> 00:40:04 Yeah.

00:40:04 --> 00:40:06 And that's, that's a good perspective too.

00:40:06 --> 00:40:06 If you're,

00:40:06 --> 00:40:06 if you mean,

00:40:06 --> 00:40:10 if you're talking to somebody who is actively telling you about

00:40:10 --> 00:40:11 their plans to do violence,

00:40:11 --> 00:40:12 that's one thing,

00:40:12 --> 00:40:13 but there,

00:40:13 --> 00:40:16 there are many white supremacists out there who just,

00:40:16 --> 00:40:17 I mean,

00:40:17 --> 00:40:18 the KKK still exists in 2020 and there's a

00:40:19 --> 00:40:21 A lot of people where for them,

00:40:21 --> 00:40:25 it's it's it's not like they want to go out and lynch people,

00:40:25 --> 00:40:28 but it's it's this mindset and this it's this mindset of like

00:40:29 --> 00:40:30 we have the superior

00:40:30 --> 00:40:32 race and there is an inferior race.

00:40:32 --> 00:40:34 That's the idea of white supremacy.

00:40:34 --> 00:40:38 So, you know, if I was talking to a guy who was a white supremacist.

00:40:38 --> 00:40:39 I know what I'd be feeling.

00:40:39 --> 00:40:42 I'd be wanting to challenge his white supremacy.

00:40:42 --> 00:40:45 I'd be wanting to show him he was wrong and,

00:40:45 --> 00:40:48 and correct him and show him all of this information.

00:40:48 --> 00:40:50 But then when I go back to the homosexual person,

00:40:50 --> 00:40:51 it's like,

00:40:51 --> 00:40:52 I'm not doing that to them.

00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 I just want them to come to Jesus and then work out the other

00:40:56 --> 00:40:57 stuff later through

00:40:57 --> 00:40:58 the power of the Holy spirit.

00:40:58 --> 00:40:58 And so like,

00:40:58 --> 00:41:00 as I'm critiquing my own response,

00:41:01 --> 00:41:03 I'm thinking that if I am in the DMV line talking to a white

00:41:04 --> 00:41:04 supremacist as a,

00:41:05 --> 00:41:05 as a pastor,

00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 I do need to be concerned with that person's soul,

00:41:09 --> 00:41:11 even if I'm repulsed by that person.

00:41:11 --> 00:41:12 And that's the interesting thing.

00:41:12 --> 00:41:14 I'm not really repulsed by the homosexual person.

00:41:14 --> 00:41:15 Back in the day,

00:41:15 --> 00:41:18 I was because it was just kind of taught as like,

00:41:18 --> 00:41:19 this is the worst sin ever.

00:41:20 --> 00:41:21 But the way I look at it now is it's like,

00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 this is a person just like me and just like everyone else who

00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 is broken and has flawed,

00:41:27 --> 00:41:28 broken sexuality,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:31 just like every straight person also has flawed and broken sexuality.

00:41:31 --> 00:41:32 We all need Jesus to...

00:41:33 --> 00:41:34 redeem our sexuality.

00:41:34 --> 00:41:37 So I'm not disgusted by the homosexual person,

00:41:37 --> 00:41:41 even if I disagree theologically with how they're acting on

00:41:41 --> 00:41:42 their desires.

00:41:42 --> 00:41:46 I am repulsed by the white supremacist who has a superiority

00:41:46 --> 00:41:47 and hate towards

00:41:47 --> 00:41:48 another person,

00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 but I would need to set that aside.

00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 And if God was leading me to be a witness to that person,

00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 I would need to focus on the soul,

00:41:56 --> 00:41:56 like to take

00:41:57 --> 00:41:59 to focus on how can I convince this person who is not a

00:41:59 --> 00:42:01 Christian that the way of

00:42:01 --> 00:42:04 Jesus is the correct way and that they need Jesus.

00:42:04 --> 00:42:08 And I would probably in that gospel presentation bring up the

00:42:08 --> 00:42:10 reality of the sin of

00:42:10 --> 00:42:12 the supremacy they feel.

00:42:12 --> 00:42:12 And just,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:16 I would try to explain to them theologically why all people are

00:42:16 --> 00:42:17 made in the image

00:42:17 --> 00:42:18 of God and worthy of dignity.

00:42:19 --> 00:42:20 But I would try to do it in a way that was loving,

00:42:20 --> 00:42:22 in a way that was showing this person like,

00:42:22 --> 00:42:23 hey,

00:42:23 --> 00:42:25 I care about you and I want to see you in heaven.

00:42:25 --> 00:42:25 And

00:42:26 --> 00:42:28 Even though we disagree on this really important issue,

00:42:28 --> 00:42:28 like,

00:42:28 --> 00:42:30 I really think you need Jesus.

00:42:31 --> 00:42:31 And you know what I mean?

00:42:31 --> 00:42:31 Like,

00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 I don't think the right thing to do would be to yell at that person.

00:42:36 --> 00:42:38 And that very much is in the cultural moment.

00:42:38 --> 00:42:42 Social media, we see people yelling at white supremacists every day.

00:42:42 --> 00:42:46 And it's a very angry activism that says these people are irredeemable.

00:42:46 --> 00:42:49 But the gospel tells us that no one is irredeemable.

00:42:49 --> 00:42:49 You know,

00:42:50 --> 00:42:51 not back in the 90s,

00:42:51 --> 00:42:53 we would say the homosexual was irredeemable,

00:42:54 --> 00:42:54 which isn't true.

00:42:55 --> 00:42:55 Now,

00:42:55 --> 00:42:55 2020,

00:42:55 --> 00:42:58 it's like anyone who's racist or white supremacist,

00:42:58 --> 00:43:00 they're the ones that are a hopeless cause.

00:43:00 --> 00:43:03 But the gospel has to tell us that neither are a hopeless cause.

00:43:04 --> 00:43:07 And both people are loved by God and he desperately wants to

00:43:07 --> 00:43:08 redeem them just like

00:43:08 --> 00:43:09 he's redeemed us.

00:43:09 --> 00:43:10 Yeah, I completely agree.

00:43:10 --> 00:43:14 And the more that I think about this, the more that I think.

00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 So going back to the example of the gay person in the DMV line,

00:43:19 --> 00:43:21 they felt like before God,

00:43:22 --> 00:43:25 there was no way that they could receive love from him.

00:43:26 --> 00:43:29 So I wanted to try to help them see that they could.

00:43:30 --> 00:43:32 And I think that in talking with the white supremacist,

00:43:32 --> 00:43:37 the big lack that I could see in that person is a lack of

00:43:38 --> 00:43:39 recognizing their own

00:43:39 --> 00:43:41 brokenness and coming to it with humility.

00:43:43 --> 00:43:45 So I think that the way that I would try to,

00:43:45 --> 00:43:45 again,

00:43:45 --> 00:43:49 the best version of me would try to present the gospel to them

00:43:49 --> 00:43:50 would be to say,

00:43:50 --> 00:43:51 hey,

00:43:51 --> 00:43:53 we're all broken in different ways.

00:43:54 --> 00:43:58 But Jesus tells us that if we are humble before him, he'll make us whole.

00:43:58 --> 00:43:59 Hmm.

00:43:59 --> 00:43:59 Yeah.

00:43:59 --> 00:44:02 But I do feel like I'd probably be doing it in like,

00:44:03 --> 00:44:03 you know,

00:44:04 --> 00:44:05 some people are better than others,

00:44:05 --> 00:44:05 but,

00:44:06 --> 00:44:06 you know,

00:44:06 --> 00:44:09 any master race still isn't perfect.

00:44:10 --> 00:44:12 I'm like I'm brainstorming it right now.

00:44:12 --> 00:44:14 And I hate how that sounded.

00:44:14 --> 00:44:16 You're trying you're trying to figure out a problem you've

00:44:16 --> 00:44:17 never had to deal with before.

00:44:17 --> 00:44:20 This is this is a hypothetical.

00:44:20 --> 00:44:21 I love hypotheticals, by the way.

00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 But I would try to bring something to the standpoint of like,

00:44:26 --> 00:44:27 you know,

00:44:27 --> 00:44:30 no matter how we value people,

00:44:30 --> 00:44:33 the ultimate issue is that there is no perfect person,

00:44:33 --> 00:44:33 you know,

00:44:33 --> 00:44:34 like,

00:44:34 --> 00:44:34 hey,

00:44:34 --> 00:44:36 like you might feel that you're whatever,

00:44:36 --> 00:44:37 you know,

00:44:37 --> 00:44:38 your race is whatever.

00:44:38 --> 00:44:41 But you as a person, like, are you a perfect person?

00:44:41 --> 00:44:43 And I would try and bring it to that level.

00:44:43 --> 00:44:44 And if I could get them to be like,

00:44:44 --> 00:44:44 no,

00:44:44 --> 00:44:44 well,

00:44:44 --> 00:44:47 I recognize that there is still brokenness in me.

00:44:47 --> 00:44:50 Then it's like, yes, there's brokenness in all of us.

00:44:50 --> 00:44:53 And if we're humble enough to admit it and ask Jesus to fix it,

00:44:53 --> 00:44:55 he's willing to do that for all of us.

00:44:55 --> 00:44:56 Yeah.

00:44:56 --> 00:44:56 Yeah.

00:44:56 --> 00:44:58 And in that conversation,

00:44:58 --> 00:45:01 just like if you're talking to an LGBT person or someone

00:45:01 --> 00:45:02 struggling with any sin,

00:45:03 --> 00:45:04 anyone who's not a Christian,

00:45:05 --> 00:45:07 there's probably an 80% chance they're going to listen to your

00:45:07 --> 00:45:08 gospel presentation

00:45:08 --> 00:45:09 and they're going to reject it.

00:45:09 --> 00:45:11 That's just the reality of evangelism.

00:45:11 --> 00:45:15 But you have no idea what those seeds planted in the heart of

00:45:15 --> 00:45:16 somebody can do and

00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 what God can do with those seeds.

00:45:19 --> 00:45:19 And,

00:45:20 --> 00:45:20 you know,

00:45:20 --> 00:45:23 I think that I think sin does need to be called out and rebuked

00:45:23 --> 00:45:24 for sure.

00:45:24 --> 00:45:25 We see Jesus do it.

00:45:25 --> 00:45:26 We see the prophets do it.

00:45:26 --> 00:45:31 But we have to be good cultural missionaries and recognize

00:45:31 --> 00:45:32 where are the places in

00:45:32 --> 00:45:34 society that the church has found

00:45:34 --> 00:45:38 failed to call out sin in a way that is loving in a way that

00:45:38 --> 00:45:39 focused more on the

00:45:39 --> 00:45:42 sin and less on the person in bondage to the sin.

00:45:42 --> 00:45:45 And how can we pivot and do better?

00:45:45 --> 00:45:47 And I think that when it comes to homosexuality,

00:45:47 --> 00:45:48 we've definitely seen that.

00:45:48 --> 00:45:51 And so it's like, we need truth, but we need it in love.

00:45:51 --> 00:45:52 I don't know.

00:45:52 --> 00:45:57 I know several people who consider themselves to be same sex attracted,

00:45:57 --> 00:45:59 but they are currently going to church.

00:45:59 --> 00:46:01 They're committed to Christ and they're committed to a life of

00:46:01 --> 00:46:03 celibacy where

00:46:03 --> 00:46:04 they're choosing to say,

00:46:04 --> 00:46:04 OK,

00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 this is what Jesus says about sexuality and I'm going to be

00:46:07 --> 00:46:07 faithful to it.

00:46:08 --> 00:46:11 Even though even though I've prayed and God hasn't taken away my desires,

00:46:12 --> 00:46:13 even though this temptation is still there,

00:46:13 --> 00:46:15 I'm going to walk with Christ through this,

00:46:16 --> 00:46:17 which I think is a beautiful thing.

00:46:17 --> 00:46:20 I know several people and I've heard of several people from my

00:46:20 --> 00:46:20 friend's churches

00:46:21 --> 00:46:21 that are in that place.

00:46:22 --> 00:46:24 I don't know a single one of them that came to that place

00:46:24 --> 00:46:25 because somebody got in

00:46:25 --> 00:46:28 their face about their sin and yelled at them about their sin

00:46:28 --> 00:46:29 and condemned them

00:46:29 --> 00:46:29 about their sin.

00:46:29 --> 00:46:33 I know many people personally who've left the church because of that.

00:46:33 --> 00:46:34 So it's like we have to find a better way.

00:46:35 --> 00:46:36 People are getting saved.

00:46:36 --> 00:46:38 Find out how they got saved.

00:46:38 --> 00:46:39 Find out what the factors are.

00:46:40 --> 00:46:41 It probably wasn't condemnation.

00:46:41 --> 00:46:43 It probably wasn't judgmentalism.

00:46:43 --> 00:46:44 It probably wasn't legalism.

00:46:44 --> 00:46:46 It was probably a Christian who was willing to treat them like

00:46:46 --> 00:46:47 a human being

00:46:47 --> 00:46:48 despite their flaws.

00:46:48 --> 00:46:51 And so that's what we need in the case of anything.

00:46:51 --> 00:46:52 And by the way,

00:46:52 --> 00:46:53 if you're listening,

00:46:53 --> 00:46:56 I'm not at all equivocating white supremacy to somebody who has

00:46:57 --> 00:46:58 same-sex attraction.

00:46:58 --> 00:46:58 Yeah.

00:46:59 --> 00:46:59 at all.

00:46:59 --> 00:47:00 It's not a fair comparison.

00:47:01 --> 00:47:02 But I was trying to go,

00:47:02 --> 00:47:05 we were trying to go to like the most extreme thing we could

00:47:05 --> 00:47:06 think of and take the,

00:47:07 --> 00:47:08 we were trying to do a thought exercise.

00:47:08 --> 00:47:10 Hypotheticals work best at the extremes.

00:47:18 --> 00:47:21 So I know that these two episodes have kind of gone in a lot of

00:47:21 --> 00:47:22 different directions.

00:47:22 --> 00:47:26 You probably came to this episode expecting the phrase white

00:47:26 --> 00:47:28 supremacist to be used

00:47:28 --> 00:47:30 a lot less than it was actually used.

00:47:30 --> 00:47:32 In fairness, we did too.

00:47:32 --> 00:47:33 Yeah.

00:47:33 --> 00:47:36 But we were glad that we were able to have some of these conversations.

00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 Thank you so much for joining us and hearing these out and

00:47:40 --> 00:47:43 definitely for responding to them.

00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 We know that the way that podcasts work is we talk into

00:47:46 --> 00:47:47 microphones and then it

00:47:47 --> 00:47:49 goes out into the interwebs.

00:47:49 --> 00:47:51 But the interwebs let you talk back.

00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 And we love it when we get to hear some feedback through

00:47:55 --> 00:47:57 Instagram that really

00:47:57 --> 00:48:01 helps us see the way that the show is hitting you guys.

00:48:01 --> 00:48:05 We want to be a group of people collectively that think through things.

00:48:05 --> 00:48:06 So please,

00:48:06 --> 00:48:09 if you feel like there's a facet of something that we didn't

00:48:09 --> 00:48:11 touch on or that would

00:48:11 --> 00:48:13 be interesting for us to dive into deeper,

00:48:14 --> 00:48:17 we know that this was just the beginning of a lot of

00:48:17 --> 00:48:18 conversations and we would

00:48:18 --> 00:48:21 love to keep these conversations going with you.

00:48:21 --> 00:48:21 Yeah,

00:48:21 --> 00:48:27 we want to find out from you guys what is on your heart and

00:48:27 --> 00:48:27 what are the things

00:48:27 --> 00:48:30 that you're struggling with and how can we speak into this moment?

00:48:30 --> 00:48:33 We don't want to just assume we know what everybody's struggling with.

00:48:33 --> 00:48:37 So pretty soon we're going to be doing some crowdsourcing on

00:48:37 --> 00:48:38 this and reaching out

00:48:38 --> 00:48:40 to you guys on our Instagram story.

00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 If you follow my account at Aaron Salvato or the Good Lion

00:48:44 --> 00:48:46 Instagram account at goodlion.io,

00:48:46 --> 00:48:49 we'll be probably putting out pretty soon some different

00:48:49 --> 00:48:50 questionnaires and polls

00:48:50 --> 00:48:50 and

00:48:51 --> 00:48:51 Thank you.

00:49:15 --> 00:49:18 the time and the margin and the resources to produce this show.

00:49:19 --> 00:49:20 It's something we're passionate about.

00:49:20 --> 00:49:21 We want to get back on it.

00:49:21 --> 00:49:24 And we're just so thankful for you guys for listening and being

00:49:24 --> 00:49:25 a part of this.

00:49:25 --> 00:49:28 And we're just grateful as two guys who,

00:49:28 --> 00:49:28 you know,

00:49:29 --> 00:49:30 really loved preaching.

00:49:30 --> 00:49:33 And right now we're in a season where we're not getting to do

00:49:33 --> 00:49:34 that as much.

00:49:34 --> 00:49:36 We can't really stand in a room and speak to a group of people.

00:49:37 --> 00:49:40 We're so grateful that we are able to still use our voice in

00:49:40 --> 00:49:41 this way and connect with people

00:49:42 --> 00:49:43 And not just talk about our opinions,

00:49:43 --> 00:49:46 but to talk about the gospel and to talk about Jesus and to try

00:49:46 --> 00:49:47 to just help

00:49:47 --> 00:49:50 Christians think through what is going on in our culture and

00:49:50 --> 00:49:52 society in this moment

00:49:52 --> 00:49:54 from a Jesus-centered lens.

00:49:54 --> 00:49:56 So yeah, thank you so much, guys, for listening.

00:49:56 --> 00:49:58 We love every single one of you.

00:49:59 --> 00:50:00 I was going to say that I loved them,

00:50:00 --> 00:50:02 and then you said it like that,

00:50:02 --> 00:50:06 and now I feel like I can't piggyback on the sentiment that you

00:50:06 --> 00:50:07 just shared.

00:50:07 --> 00:50:07 You can't.

00:50:07 --> 00:50:08 It's over.

00:50:08 --> 00:50:08 It's done.

00:50:09 --> 00:50:10 Should I leave that in, or is it creepy?

00:50:10 --> 00:50:12 That's all the love that they receive.

00:50:12 --> 00:50:13 Should I leave it in, or is it creepy?

00:50:13 --> 00:50:14 It's pretty creepy.

00:50:14 --> 00:50:16 It shouldn't be the last thing we say.

00:50:16 --> 00:50:18 I think if you're going to leave that in,

00:50:18 --> 00:50:22 you should also leave in the amount of time it's taken us to

00:50:22 --> 00:50:24 process whether or not

00:50:24 --> 00:50:24 you should leave it in.

00:50:24 --> 00:50:25 Yeah.

00:50:25 --> 00:50:26 So just all of this?

00:50:26 --> 00:50:27 Just leave it in?

00:50:27 --> 00:50:28 Yeah, just all of this.

00:50:28 --> 00:50:29 Okay, this is going in.

00:50:29 --> 00:50:30 I'm leaving it in.

00:50:30 --> 00:50:32 We love you guys in a non-creepy way.

00:50:32 --> 00:50:34 We love you in a non-creepy way.

00:50:34 --> 00:50:35 Good lion.

00:50:37 --> 00:50:37 That's it.

00:50:38 --> 00:50:40 We just found a new tagline for everything.

00:50:40 --> 00:50:41 There it is.

00:50:41 --> 00:50:41 Okay.

00:50:41 --> 00:50:42 Thank you for listening.

00:50:43 --> 00:50:46 Please don't let this part make you stop.

00:50:46 --> 00:50:48 We would love for you to listen again.

00:50:48 --> 00:50:51 What if someone has listened to every single episode and then

00:50:51 --> 00:50:51 they got to this

00:50:51 --> 00:50:52 outro and they're like,

00:50:52 --> 00:50:53 this is what did it.

00:50:53 --> 00:50:55 No more.

00:50:58 --> 00:51:02 I can sense the creepiness in your love even when you were

00:51:02 --> 00:51:03 saying it wasn't.

00:51:03 --> 00:51:04 Oh my gosh.

00:51:04 --> 00:51:05 Thanks for listening, everybody.

00:51:05 --> 00:51:06 We'll see you next time.

00:51:06 --> 00:51:06 Hopefully.

00:51:07 --> 00:51:11 okay bye thanks for listening to another episode of the good

00:51:11 --> 00:51:13 line podcast if you

00:51:13 --> 00:51:16 like our show please take a minute to give us a review on

00:51:17 --> 00:51:18 itunes it seriously helps

00:51:18 --> 00:51:23 so much the more reviews we get the more people will find us

00:51:23 --> 00:51:24 and so if you want to

00:51:24 --> 00:51:27 help the show please just go on itunes and leave a quick review

00:51:28 --> 00:51:30 We also love questions from listeners and we love to do

00:51:30 --> 00:51:32 episodes focused on questions.

00:51:33 --> 00:51:35 So if you have a question and you want us to talk about on the show,

00:51:36 --> 00:51:38 send it to our email address,

00:51:38 --> 00:51:42 which is goodlionnetworkatgmail.com.

00:51:42 --> 00:51:43 Send us a question.

00:51:43 --> 00:51:45 We'd love to talk about it on the show.

00:51:45 --> 00:51:48 The Good Lion Podcast is a production of the Calvary Global Network,

00:51:49 --> 00:51:50 and it's produced by myself,

00:51:50 --> 00:51:51 Aaron Salvato,

00:51:51 --> 00:51:52 and my co-host,

00:51:52 --> 00:51:53 Brian Higgins.

00:51:53 --> 00:51:56 Our show is a part of the Good Lion Podcast Network,

00:51:57 --> 00:52:00 a network of Christian podcasters that Brian and I started with

00:52:00 --> 00:52:00 our friends.

00:52:01 --> 00:52:02 Check out our website,

00:52:02 --> 00:52:03 goodlion.io,

00:52:04 --> 00:52:07 where you can find a ton of other Christ-centered,

00:52:07 --> 00:52:08 encouraging,

00:52:08 --> 00:52:10 and equipping podcasts.

00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 Our goal with this ministry is to reach people all over the world with

00:52:14 --> 00:52:18 Christ-centered content that helps them as they walk closer with Jesus.

00:52:18 --> 00:52:20 If you like what we do and you want to support us,

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00:52:24 --> 00:52:26 Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.