Beyond HellFire: The True Terror of Separation from God

[00:00:00] Welcome listeners to a journey through the darkest valleys and highest peaks of Christian

[00:00:06] theology. Today on The GoodLion Podcast we explore the mysteries of sin, wrath and the

[00:00:13] enigmatic concept of hell, a topic that stirs the soul and challenges the heart. How do

[00:00:18] we reconcile a God of infinite love with a doctrine of eternal punishment? What is

[00:00:23] hell? Is it merely a place or could it be a present reality as tangible as the air

[00:00:28] we breathe? In this episode Aaron shares part of a lecture on sin and hell that was originally

[00:00:34] taught at The GoodLion School of Discipleship with the goal of helping young Christians

[00:00:38] navigate these tumultuous waters. Through Biblical text and personal reflection we explore the

[00:00:44] intricate dance between divine justice and mercy. Why would a loving God create a

[00:00:49] realm of eternal suffering? Is hell intended for humanity or does its creation serve

[00:00:54] a different divine purpose entirely? And are the flames of hell literal or merely a metaphor?

[00:01:01] These are questions that haunt believers and skeptics alike. As we unpack these themes,

[00:01:06] prepare to be challenged, comforted and perhaps even confronted by an issue we tend

[00:01:11] to avoid. You're listening to The GoodLion Podcast.

[00:01:17] Let's talk about hell.

[00:01:32] You can't talk about sin without also talking about hell. They go hand in hand.

[00:01:38] They're like two sides of the same coin. Sin, in essence, is our way of turning away from God

[00:01:45] and hell, well, it's the ultimate manifestation of that turning. Like a car heading in one

[00:01:52] direction and then deciding to turn around and go the opposite direction, hell is the final

[00:01:57] destination that that car reaches at the end of the path once they've turned and gone the opposite direction.

[00:02:06] Throughout this theological discussion on hell, a pressing question often emerges and it's

[00:02:15] one that can be haunting for us humans. Was hell designed by God for humanity? It's a

[00:02:23] question that has troubled so many people's hearts. We read throughout scripture that

[00:02:29] God is love. It's his very character and essence in nature and he created humans for the purpose

[00:02:37] of experiencing and engaging with this love. So if that's true, why would he create a place

[00:02:44] of eternal torment and judgment for humans? Well, the short answer is he didn't. Despite

[00:02:52] what you may think, he did not head to his heavenly workshop and lay out blueprints

[00:02:57] and architecture for the perfect place to torment and judge humans for all eternity.

[00:03:08] The Gospel of Matthew actually gives us some clear illumination on this. In Matthew 25

[00:03:18] verses 31 through 46 it says,

[00:03:27] Before him will be gathered all the nations and he will separate people from one another

[00:03:31] as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right

[00:03:36] but the goats on the left. Then the king will say to those on his right,

[00:03:41] Come you who are blessed by my father and herit the kingdom prepared for you from the

[00:03:45] foundations of the world. And yet then he will say to those on his left,

[00:03:49] Depart from me you cursed into the eternal fire prepared not for humans but for the devil

[00:03:57] and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.

[00:04:05] This is a chilling passage, but it reveals something. The eternal fire was not originally

[00:04:12] kindled for mankind but for the rebellious demons, the legion of former angels that

[00:04:18] started the war in the heavenly realm between Yahweh, the forces of light and the forces

[00:04:24] of darkness. Scripture shows us with confidence that hell was not crafted as a dwelling for humanity.

[00:04:30] God doesn't want anyone to be there. Man was created in the image of God.

[00:04:37] Man was intended for communion, friendship, fellowship and family with the divine

[00:04:42] not for the void and pain and heartache and fire of hell.

[00:04:48] Man was designed and put on a path towards God but through turning away and driving in the opposite direction

[00:04:56] away from the divine light, man will find himself in a destination of darkness if he doesn't turn back around.

[00:05:13] Now I want to take a moment to stop and talk about an aspect of hell that I don't think we talk about enough.

[00:05:22] And that is the concept of hell not only as a final future destination but also as a present reality.

[00:05:33] Let me explain. Just as we believe that the kingdom of heaven is already but not yet,

[00:05:39] I also believe that the kingdom of hell is already but not yet.

[00:05:45] I believe that the kingdom of hell is a final future destination that can also be experienced in the here and now.

[00:05:55] Now if that raises anyone's eyebrows, let me again be emphatic about what I'm not saying.

[00:06:01] I am not saying that there is no final destination called hell.

[00:06:06] I'm affirming that. I believe there is a final eternal separation from God.

[00:06:13] But what I'm also affirming is that through the destructive behaviors of sin and the way that sin can wreak havoc in the lives of humans,

[00:06:20] we have the potential to unleash hell on earth.

[00:06:23] Let me ask you a question. Is Germany a place or is it a force?

[00:06:38] I know that's a strange question but stay with me for a moment.

[00:06:44] If you were to consider Germany solely as a geographical entity, a place, you would not be mistaken.

[00:06:50] It's a nation with boundaries, cities, rivers and mountains.

[00:06:54] But to those who lived through the harrowing horrors of World War II, Germany was not merely a place.

[00:07:02] It was a force, a powerful military entity with ideologies, momentum and influence.

[00:07:10] During the war, Germany wasn't just its physical land.

[00:07:13] It was the horrific might and ideology of the Nazis and the ferociously evil strategy of its commanders including, of course, Adolf Hitler.

[00:07:24] This dual identity as both a location and a force played a pivotal role in shaping the trajectory of global history.

[00:07:33] Now let's translate this analogy to the idea of hell.

[00:07:37] Is hell just a place? A fiery abyss where souls are separated from Yahweh?

[00:07:41] Certainly that's a part of its definition, but scripture and traditions suggest it's more complicated than that.

[00:07:48] Hell is also a force, a rebellious power led by the chief demon, the original rebel and the fallen angels.

[00:07:57] These entities were once heavenly beings of light and they became agents of darkness with agendas, strategies and a desire to pull humanity away from God's embrace.

[00:08:08] Like the military force of a nation, this demonic legion actively seeks to expand its influence, wage spiritual warfare and do everything it can to undermine the kingdom of heaven.

[00:08:22] This is primarily I think the biblical image that we're given for hell.

[00:08:29] The idea of it not just being a final future destination but a kingdom from which warfare is waged.

[00:08:35] Now just to be clear, I do not think that there are offices or buildings or military bases set up in a physical place called hell at the moment.

[00:08:46] The final hell is a place where the demons are eventually going.

[00:08:51] But in this context when I use the word hell, I am talking about the kingdom of darkness that represents the enemy, the demonic armies and the very nature and essence of the dark destructive force of sin itself.

[00:09:07] Hell is a future final destination but I also would argue it is a present reality.

[00:09:13] Right now, when mothers in Haiti run out of flour, they make cookies for their children out of mud.

[00:09:18] If there is a place in this world where mothers have to make cookies out of mud, that's a place of hell on earth.

[00:09:24] When women are stoned to death in Afghanistan for adultery, that is a place of hell on earth.

[00:09:30] When an infant dies from malaria every 30 seconds in Africa, that is a place of hell on earth.

[00:09:38] When 6 year old girls in Thailand are sold for sex slavery, that is a place of hell on earth.

[00:09:45] The forces of hell, the empire of the enemy is constantly invading our earthly realm.

[00:09:53] And we see this play out through several different ways.

[00:09:56] Through war, through racism, through a lack of care for the unborn, through abortion and through generally idolatry, the worship of other gods.

[00:10:07] And of course these days we don't bow down to idols.

[00:10:10] The gods that we worship quite often are illuminated from the glow of our smartphone.

[00:10:16] I think this is a very important way to contextualize what sinning actually is.

[00:10:22] Sinning is not just a choice for pleasure in the moment, it's actually a military choice.

[00:10:29] When we give into our flesh, when we give into our evil desires,

[00:10:32] what we are doing is even if we follow Yahweh, even if we're disciples of Christ,

[00:10:37] in the moments that we willingly sin, we are actually making a choice to advance the kingdom of hell.

[00:10:44] We do this through our greed, idolatry, our sexual brokenness, selfishness,

[00:10:51] and the moments that we refuse to love others.

[00:10:53] The hope in this is that God is fighting to bring us to a new world, a perfect world,

[00:11:01] a new heaven and earth.

[00:11:03] A world where there is nothing evil, only perfection.

[00:11:08] A journey back to the garden, back to the ideal of Eden, the way things were always meant to be.

[00:11:23] The theological world

[00:11:28] Now I want to stop for a minute and address something.

[00:11:32] There is a debate in the theological world around the concept of hell.

[00:11:38] And by the way, let me just say this first Christians, you should not be afraid of theological debates.

[00:11:44] I remember when I was a young Christian, I was so afraid of theological debate

[00:11:49] of anyone having a different view that was outside of the norm of what I had heard growing up.

[00:11:56] But I've come now to realize that there has always been debate within Christianity

[00:12:02] going back thousands of years and there's so many things that we don't need to divide over.

[00:12:08] Yes, the implications of what we believe affect how we live out our Christianity,

[00:12:13] but it is our faith in Christ that still unites us and family.

[00:12:16] And I believe that one day we will all be before Jesus blown away,

[00:12:21] both at what we got right but also at the many things that we were all off about.

[00:12:28] So back to the debate on hell.

[00:12:31] A lot of people ask the question, the fires of hell, are they real or are they merely allegory?

[00:12:37] Theological discourse for centuries has been ignited for a lack of a better word by this question.

[00:12:42] On one side, we find proponents of eternal conscious torment.

[00:12:48] This is the side that my seminary professor, Gary Brashir, actually argued for

[00:12:53] at the Exiles and Babylon conference that Preston Sprinkle put on.

[00:12:57] Eternal conscious torment, it's this idea that those who reject Jesus will live in eternal punishment,

[00:13:06] perpetual suffering, and perpetual conscious pain.

[00:13:10] On the opposing side of the debate, you have annihilationists and they believe that those who reject Jesus after facing judgment will be utterly destroyed.

[00:13:21] Their very souls will be wiped out of existence, ceasing to exist.

[00:13:26] And these debates fully have their place.

[00:13:29] I mean, I've been fascinated by this debate for years.

[00:13:32] But I would assert that by placing the emphasis on which of these two sides are true

[00:13:40] and asking questions of when the Bible talks about torment and flames, are the flames literal

[00:13:46] or is it a metaphor for some sort of other conscious torment?

[00:13:49] I think when this becomes the focus, we can kind of gaze too narrowly and miss the actual more harrowing reality.

[00:14:02] What I've come to be convicted of is no matter which side of this debate is true,

[00:14:10] the reality is the most tragic and horrific aspect of hell isn't the possibility of literal flames or ceaseless torment

[00:14:18] or having your soul destroyed.

[00:14:20] Instead, the most horrific and scary and terrifying thing about hell is the idea of a human being separated from God.

[00:14:32] And the reason I believe this is because I believe Scripture clearly lays out this idea that humans were designed for divine communion.

[00:14:45] At the heart of our very being, humans were intricately designed for communion with God.

[00:14:51] Like we're not accidents of evolution.

[00:14:53] We're deliberate creations fashioned in the very image of God.

[00:15:01] The spark of the divine is within us and it inherently longs for its source like a child reaches out to nurse with its mother.

[00:15:11] Throughout our earthly life, even if subconsciously we bask in the glow of God's omnipresent grace,

[00:15:26] His presence offers us comfort and trials, hope during our despair and love during our loneliness

[00:15:33] To be cut off from all possibilities of access to this presence, it's like a fish being yanked from water or a plant being uprooted from its soil.

[00:15:47] I mean think about how many people out there long for purpose, how many people, especially in our modern western self-centered culture,

[00:15:56] how many people struggle with feeling like they're not connected to a purpose.

[00:16:00] Oh I just, I feel like I was meant to be an artist but I'm stuck at this 9-5 job.

[00:16:05] I feel like I was meant for love and marriage but I've been single my whole life.

[00:16:10] These are the longings of the soul that so many humans wrestle with.

[00:16:15] And those longings are actually shadows of the deepest longing that humans have.

[00:16:21] That is the longing for connection with their creator even if they don't understand that that's what they long for.

[00:16:26] That is the whole, that is what is missing from so many humans without Christ.

[00:16:34] And that's even for those of us who are Christians, the longing that we feel when we go through long periods of time where we feel disconnected from God

[00:16:42] it's because we're not tapping into our actual purpose.

[00:16:45] And so understanding all that, given this intrinsic design and the nature of what our relationship with God was designed to be,

[00:16:52] an existence without God becomes one of the most horrible, horrific, grievous fates for a human soul.

[00:17:09] Second Thessalonians 1 verse 8 through 9 says this,

[00:17:13] He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus.

[00:17:19] They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord.

[00:17:27] In Matthew 7 23 he says,

[00:17:35] In Revelation 21 verse 27 when it talks about the heavenly city, the new heaven and earth,

[00:17:41] it says,

[00:17:44] Nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

[00:17:52] And of course for those of us who are Christians we know what that means.

[00:17:56] It doesn't mean those of us who are special or gifted or those of us who lived a better life than others.

[00:18:02] No, it's talking about those that have received the free gift of salvation offered by Jesus through what he did on the cross.

[00:18:08] But for those who do not accept that gift, for those who are poisoned but don't accept the cure or the antidote,

[00:18:17] for those who are on the sinking ship and they don't accept the gift of the lifeboat,

[00:18:22] the result is death by disease.

[00:18:26] The result is sinking to the bottom and drowning.

[00:18:30] It's being cut off, it's separation.

[00:18:33] Consider this analogy.

[00:18:34] We live in a world right now that is highly dependent on the sun.

[00:18:42] What does the sun give us?

[00:18:44] It gives us life, it gives us light, it grows things, it nurtures things, it warms you when you're cold.

[00:18:54] Now you cannot believe in the sun.

[00:18:56] You could be somebody that is just a sun denier.

[00:18:59] You're like, I don't care what people say.

[00:19:02] The sun doesn't exist but the reality is, yeah it does exist and even if you don't believe it,

[00:19:07] you can still experience its light, its life, the things that it grows, the things that it nurtures.

[00:19:15] You can benefit from the sun's rays even if you don't believe in the sun.

[00:19:20] But now imagine a world without the sun.

[00:19:24] Imagine you wake up one day and the sun does not exist.

[00:19:28] What kind of world are you now living in?

[00:19:31] You're living in a world that is dark, utterly dark.

[00:19:35] And if your response to that is, well no you forgot about the moon,

[00:19:39] you don't understand that the only reason that the moon lights up at night is because it's reflecting the light of the sun.

[00:19:45] So a world without the sun is a world of darkness.

[00:19:49] It's a world of cold, a world without growth and a world without warmth.

[00:19:54] Freezing, barren, desolate and empty.

[00:20:04] This I think is a picture that helps us understand that whatever exactly hell is,

[00:20:12] it will be a terrible existence because much like the sun is the source of so much in our world,

[00:20:18] think about God. What is God the source of?

[00:20:20] God is the source of light, life, love, mercy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control, mercy, hope.

[00:20:35] God is the source of all of these things.

[00:20:38] And so once God takes his followers, his children, his family, the ones that have accepted his gift of salvation,

[00:20:45] once he brings them to the new heaven and earth and then cuts off everyone else from his presence,

[00:20:54] what will they be left with? A world without love, life, light, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness.

[00:21:06] A world without self-control. A world without mercy. A world without hope.

[00:21:11] Scripture tells us that all good things come from God.

[00:21:16] And so when people find themselves in a hellish existence without God there, what will be left behind?

[00:21:23] Everything that is not good. Whatever exactly hell is, it will be a place where there is nothing good.

[00:21:31] A place where all the goodness has been taken away and you're left with nothing but brokenness, sadness, bitterness, hatred and pain.

[00:21:41] We have all these debates in the Christian world about the nature of hell. People ask, are the flames literal?

[00:21:47] I love what the late great Tim Keller said. If the flames in hell are a metaphor, then they are a metaphor for something much, much worse than flames.

[00:21:57] The point that I'm making is eternal separation from God is a fate worse than death or fire.

[00:22:05] What were humans made for? Ask yourself, what was I made for?

[00:22:09] And then ask yourself, do I want to be in a place where there is no possibility that I can fulfill the purpose of my very soul?

[00:22:19] Man this stuff is so heavy. It's so challenging.

[00:22:22] And it's something that it can really plague you and burden you as a Christian.

[00:22:27] Even as someone like me who I believe that ultimately God is the one doing the saving.

[00:22:32] It's not my job to save anyone. It is my job to preach the gospel.

[00:22:37] It is my job to warn people about judgment and sin.

[00:22:40] It is my job to help disciple people and walk with Jesus so that they don't stray away from him and his love and his heart

[00:22:48] and so they don't go down the path that can lead to destruction by choosing to reject God ultimately.

[00:22:53] I believe it's not my job to save anyone.

[00:22:55] It's my job to be a tool in the hands of the Master Carpenter.

[00:23:00] Ultimately I can trust that he will save everyone that he intends to.

[00:23:06] And yet understanding the nature of hell, I just am burdened by not wanting anyone to experience it.

[00:23:14] And it's so hard.

[00:23:15] The balance that I found, the challenge that I found is the tension between knowing the future

[00:23:25] and knowing what God says is going to happen and knowing about heaven and hell.

[00:23:29] And then also I can't just go and street evangelize 24-7 because I have to do my job

[00:23:36] and take care of my family and responsibilities.

[00:23:39] The tension of this world can be overwhelming because when you actually sit down and think about how many people will eventually be separated from Jesus,

[00:23:51] it is so challenging.

[00:23:53] The Bible says that the way is narrow and few find it.

[00:23:57] And honestly when it comes to this topic I think a lot of us, myself included,

[00:24:01] we sort of push the reality of the coming hell out of our minds.

[00:24:08] We don't want to think about it, especially because we're saved and we know that we don't have to worry about it.

[00:24:14] But then I think about what God is doing with our broken world.

[00:24:18] He loves our world.

[00:24:20] He never stopped loving our world.

[00:24:22] He created it and he said it was good.

[00:24:24] And even though it is corrupted by darkness at the moment, we know what Jesus is fighting for.

[00:24:31] He's fighting for a renewed world where he defeats the forces of darkness,

[00:24:37] where there's no evil, no sickness, where the last enemy to be defeated is death.

[00:24:43] And every human has a choice to be a part of this new kingdom.

[00:24:49] A kingdom that he didn't have to build.

[00:24:51] He saw us humans literally torch the place, invite the presence of demons into his good creation.

[00:25:00] And instead of starting over on a new planet, he bent over backwards throughout human history to rescue and redeem us.

[00:25:09] There's two kingdoms.

[00:25:11] The kingdom of light, the kingdom of darkness.

[00:25:13] If you don't want to be a part of the kingdom of light, you don't have to.

[00:25:17] But there's only one alternative.

[00:25:18] We need to understand God has a plan for a perfect world and yet he loves us enough to give us all a choice.

[00:25:28] If we refuse, there's only one other option.

[00:25:38] Thank you for joining us on another episode of the Good Lion podcast.

[00:25:41] Today, we have journeyed through shadowed valleys of theological debate and ascended to peaks of profound insight,

[00:25:48] examining the harrowing concepts of sin, wrath and hell.

[00:25:52] As we part, let us ponder the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 8.38.39.

[00:25:58] For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,

[00:26:02] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth,

[00:26:06] nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[00:26:14] In the labyrinth of life's trials and the darkness of what seems like impending doom, may this assurance be the light that guides us?

[00:26:22] The discourse on hell, sin and separation from God challenges us to reflect on our own spiritual journey and the choices we make.

[00:26:29] Let us remember that the essence of our faith is not encapsulated merely by the fear of eternal separation,

[00:26:36] but is profoundly rooted in the promise of eternal communion.

[00:26:39] This podcast is a production of Good Lion Ministries,

[00:26:43] a ministry devoted to helping Christians practice the way of Jesus and fall more deeply in love with a God who is not safe.

[00:26:50] But it's very good.

[00:26:52] For more resources, visit us at goodlion.org.

[00:26:55] Our ministry is made possible through the generous support of our donors

[00:26:59] To help support our work, please visit goodlion.org.

[00:27:04] As you step back into the rhythm of your daily lives, carry with you the knowledge that our destiny is not defined by the darkness we are capable of descending into,

[00:27:14] but by the light we are invited to ascend to.

[00:27:17] Until we meet again, keep seeking, keep questioning and may your path always lead you closer to the divine truth that beckons us all.

[00:27:29] Amen.