[00:00:00] Welcome to The Good Voice Collective.
[00:00:03] The show where we talk about culture, discuss theology, learn new perspectives, and grow in Christ.
[00:00:09] Each one of us has a unique voice, a unique perspective.
[00:00:13] We want to use our voices for good.
[00:00:15] We're The Good Lion Interns and you're listening to The Good Voice Collective.
[00:00:26] Hey everyone, welcome to The Good Voice Collective.
[00:00:29] We are here today having a discussion about creativity and faith.
[00:00:33] Creating us today is our lovely Corey.
[00:00:35] So, Corey, what is your first kind of bullet point you want to give to us today?
[00:00:44] I wanted to open up with asking, because we're all artists and we're all creatives here right now,
[00:00:50] I wanted to ask each one of you what creativity means to you
[00:00:55] and like how that might look like from your perspective or just your idea of creativity
[00:01:00] or like how does that, how do you see creativity as fitting into your life?
[00:01:04] Creativity, it's something that I think we make a lot more maybe exclusive than it should be
[00:01:09] but it's like something that is in all areas of our lives in different ways.
[00:01:13] We can be creative in the way we do everyday life
[00:01:16] but then it also applies to like arts and music and those things.
[00:01:21] In my life there's a lot of things that I do that are creative
[00:01:24] but I also find it difficult to be creative and like get myself in that mode.
[00:01:30] Like I play a lot of music but I find it hard to really be creative in that and like be original.
[00:01:36] I think that's kind of the struggle of the creative of the artists,
[00:01:39] like just trying to tap into that inner creativity and at least for me
[00:01:44] I've found it's a never-ending search or struggle for just originality and creativity
[00:01:50] and trying to you know tap into that inner creativity
[00:01:54] and whether it's art or you know whether it's just stuff we're doing in the day-to-day ministry
[00:01:59] and day to life, whatever.
[00:02:00] I think that's so interesting that you said it's kind of a struggle
[00:02:03] because it is kind of a double-edged sword.
[00:02:05] When your creativity is flowing it just feels great
[00:02:08] and it feels like you can get stuff done and it inspires you
[00:02:11] like I am fed by my own creativity.
[00:02:13] Sometimes I'll write songs in my divos or something
[00:02:15] and it's a way that I can keep that thought from the Bible with me all day long kind of in it.
[00:02:20] It's not something I necessarily share with anyone
[00:02:22] but it just feeds into me.
[00:02:24] But when I'm not feeling that creativity
[00:02:26] or when I'm not getting those songs kind of coming freely for me
[00:02:30] then it's really frustrating and kind of can really get me down.
[00:02:34] So yeah, it's kind of a double-edged sword in some ways.
[00:02:37] Yeah so creativity used to be what made me think I was weird.
[00:02:40] Like I grew up in a sports family.
[00:02:43] My dad played baseball and basketball.
[00:02:45] My grandpa played a lot of sports and so everyone thought I would too
[00:02:49] and guess what? I didn't.
[00:02:51] I drew comics and wrote musicals and shot videos with my action figures
[00:02:56] and programmed my own little video games
[00:02:58] and I feel like I've always loved creativity
[00:03:01] but I definitely thought it made me weird
[00:03:03] because I compared myself to other people who are better at other things.
[00:03:06] It's been awesome over the years to realize that creativity is actually a huge part of God's character and nature.
[00:03:11] Like in Genesis 1 it says in the beginning God created, right?
[00:03:17] Creativity. God created the world.
[00:03:19] He's an artist and it's not to say that anybody who's not an artist isn't like God
[00:03:25] but it is just saying that people who are creatives are reflecting a part of God's nature
[00:03:30] through expressing that creativity
[00:03:32] and it's definitely a part of him that's embedded in all of us in different ways.
[00:03:37] I love what you said about that, Erin, about God being a creative
[00:03:42] and that was the first thing he did.
[00:03:45] That's the first thing recorded that he did was he created
[00:03:48] and he created us to be creative.
[00:03:50] I think that's part of what makes us in the image of God
[00:03:53] is that we have the ability to create like he does.
[00:03:55] It's always so funny to me to hear people say like,
[00:03:58] oh you know I'm not the creative type
[00:04:00] which to be fair there are people who tap into creativity more
[00:04:05] and they express themselves more through creative ways than other people
[00:04:10] but I don't think anyone, any human is devoid of creativity
[00:04:14] because it's part of what makes us human.
[00:04:16] I love what you said, Kai, about the word you used was originality
[00:04:21] and how we are all kind of searching for that kind of creative inspiration
[00:04:26] and creative outlet and I loved when you said,
[00:04:30] I loved that word originality because it's,
[00:04:33] God's created us to be original and God's created us to be unique
[00:04:37] and I love that because we each have our own unique original creativity.
[00:04:43] We're all our own unique original person
[00:04:46] and so I think creativity is a really beautiful and wonderful thing
[00:04:51] and it's such an important aspect of our creator that he is an artist
[00:04:57] and he makes things with individuality
[00:05:00] and he makes things to be special and he makes them for the beauty of it
[00:05:06] and I always found that so powerful.
[00:05:09] Yeah, and there doesn't have to be a reason for the beauty, right?
[00:05:13] The beauty is the reason itself because it's beautiful
[00:05:16] because it sparks that joy in you or it sparks that joy in the Lord, right?
[00:05:21] He gave creation and it was good
[00:05:23] and there's no like, oh because it serves a higher function.
[00:05:26] No, like it doesn't serve a higher function.
[00:05:29] It's just that God made it and it was good
[00:05:31] and I think part of that goodness, I mean obviously it's beauty.
[00:05:34] Like he created a beautiful creation.
[00:05:36] We see that every day when we look outside
[00:05:39] and there's something intrinsically valuable about beauty
[00:05:44] that when you create something beautiful, it's not because it's not valuable
[00:05:48] because you know it serves some higher function.
[00:05:50] It's valuable just because it's beautiful.
[00:05:52] Right.
[00:05:53] Yeah, I was actually gonna kind of go into that a little bit
[00:05:57] because for me like whenever I thought of creativity kind of in the past
[00:06:01] I had always thought that I was not a creative person
[00:06:04] and that was just because I didn't produce the things that I thought were really excellent and beautiful
[00:06:10] and so like whenever I was thinking of creativity, I was thinking, oh that's not me.
[00:06:14] Like I'm not a painter and I'm not like this amazing person
[00:06:18] who can just come up with something and make it happen really fast
[00:06:22] and I always thought that just because I didn't do things
[00:06:25] like the way that I thought these amazing art pieces that were just absolutely beautiful
[00:06:30] I had like the best voice.
[00:06:31] I didn't have like the best voice ever that I thought I wasn't a creative person
[00:06:35] and actually it was really cool in our class, cultivating creativity with Neil
[00:06:40] actually he like challenged us in some places creatively
[00:06:44] that I had never been challenged before.
[00:06:46] Like just I've never been challenged in that way before
[00:06:49] and honestly it pushed me to do things that I never thought I could do
[00:06:52] and out of that place I was like oh wow I'm actually a creative person
[00:06:56] like even though like things aren't turning out exactly the way that I want them
[00:06:59] like this is a beautiful process of me bringing like this original thing
[00:07:03] and just like making something happen even though it's not perfect
[00:07:07] and even though it's like not absolutely beautiful
[00:07:09] like it's still something and it's still like can hold power
[00:07:13] and even if it's just you know even it's not the most beautiful
[00:07:16] like Picasso painting ever like I still painted something
[00:07:19] I still produced something and so and just thinking about how we just live
[00:07:23] live every day just the way that we talk to people and the way
[00:07:26] you know just the way we live like we're constantly creating things
[00:07:29] and we're constantly doing things that are creative
[00:07:32] like it's a part of our nature and so I really had to get out of that mindset
[00:07:36] of like I'm not a creative person like I realized how much that helped me back
[00:07:40] just achieving things that I wanted to achieve in my life
[00:07:43] because I didn't think I was creative and so yeah I think it's
[00:07:46] that was a really good point it's just like we're all
[00:07:49] we have a creative nature and it's like God literally made us creative people
[00:07:53] I think too sometimes we can confuse the concept of creativity
[00:07:57] with the finished product and like you think of creativity
[00:08:02] and think of like Pinterest and all these like crafts
[00:08:06] and all the little like you said like painting or music
[00:08:10] or like you think of a finished product of creativity
[00:08:14] but that's not what it is creativity is like something
[00:08:17] it's how it's something like within our brain
[00:08:21] it's how you it's kind of it's how you think and it's part of
[00:08:25] it is part of how you think it's part of what part of your ability
[00:08:29] you know to reason and to make connections
[00:08:31] and I feel like when I said that when I said that's part of the reason
[00:08:35] I think we're made in the image of God
[00:08:37] that's part of what sets us distinct from all of all
[00:08:41] the rest of creation is we're able to reason
[00:08:44] and we're able to feel emotions and we're able to create
[00:08:47] we're able to make something out of just ideas
[00:08:50] and there's so there's so much beauty in just that
[00:08:53] because the only other you know the only other being who really does this is God
[00:08:58] and it's something it's his fingerprint that he's put on us
[00:09:02] and we're able we're able to you know create like God does
[00:09:06] and everything that a human creates is bringing glory back to God
[00:09:10] that's awesome
[00:09:12] I think I think another important thing to remember is that
[00:09:26] we need to not doubt when God calls us to be creative
[00:09:30] because there's always a reason for it
[00:09:32] like for instance when I first started podcasting
[00:09:35] back when we were starting up the Good Lion podcast network
[00:09:38] I had it on my heart to make some devotional podcasts
[00:09:41] specifically I was thinking of kids that used to be in my youth group
[00:09:45] and now they're in college and I was just like how can I reach these guys
[00:09:49] and I thought oh you know podcast I remember I had this idea on my heart
[00:09:53] to just do an episode of a podcast that would just be a simple short spoken word piece
[00:09:59] about God's love and you know I put it together and recorded it
[00:10:03] and then I put some music behind it and I kind of felt like the music was cheesy
[00:10:08] you know I mean it was atmospheric but there's a part of me that was like oh you know it's too much
[00:10:13] like it's too much when you put the music behind it you're like oh man this has gone too far
[00:10:17] yes yeah no totally exactly I felt like oh this is too much you know
[00:10:21] it was too cheesy and there was this level of me that wanted to be creative
[00:10:25] but then I was held back by this feeling of you know just thinking this is excessive and cheesy
[00:10:30] but I ended up sticking with it and I didn't think anything of it besides the fact that I thought it was lame
[00:10:36] but a few months later a student who used to be in my youth group contacted me
[00:10:39] and she was like man that episode you put out about God's love
[00:10:43] and just the way that you recorded it with the music behind it
[00:10:46] I've been having so much anxiety lately and almost every night I put on that podcast episode
[00:10:51] before I go to sleep and it's helping me so much and reminding me of God's love
[00:10:55] and man it was just it was such a blessing to me
[00:10:58] and it's something that God has continued to show me over and over again
[00:11:03] I always doubt my creative ideas everything I've ever done that's creative
[00:11:06] I've always thought this is gonna be stupid
[00:11:09] but it's been such a blessing to see how God uses it
[00:11:12] despite the self-doubt that I have and also the self-doubt that I feel like most artists have
[00:11:18] Wow yeah I totally identify with that
[00:11:20] I think every time I make something there's that battle of like man this is stupid
[00:11:24] or man this sounds like something that someone else has done it
[00:11:27] it sounds derivative you know doesn't sound original
[00:11:30] like it just sounds like I'm a really bad copycat or something
[00:11:33] but you have to kind of go forward in faith you know and be like God made me creative
[00:11:38] it might not be perfect but that doesn't mean it's not beautiful
[00:11:41] it doesn't mean God can't use it to speak to somebody
[00:11:44] doesn't mean God can't you know bless this thing that I've made
[00:11:48] that you know I don't put confidence in that thing right I put confidence in the Lord
[00:11:54] if you put confidence in your creation you know the Lord is probably gonna take it out away from you eventually
[00:11:59] but just creating faith and you're just you know maybe putting it out though
[00:12:04] or just sharing it with someone who you think maybe needs it
[00:12:07] I think that's so cool and God can really use those weak things right
[00:12:11] that we think just weak but God uses the weak things to shame the wise things right
[00:12:17] to shame the most excellent thing out there you know what whatever little song I might might not be the most excellent thing
[00:12:23] but if it can speak to someone and touch their heart then God is using that weak thing
[00:12:28] to shame the wise out there
[00:12:30] Amen
[00:12:31] I think that's really great to mention I actually just contacted our teacher Neil Goding
[00:12:36] because I remembered something that he would always talk about when we were in class
[00:12:41] the first person in the Bible mentioned to be filled with the Holy Spirit was an artist
[00:12:46] his name was Bezalaw and he's mentioned in Exodus and he was the one that built the Tabernacle
[00:12:53] his name actually means in the shadow or the protection of God
[00:12:57] and he is absolutely amazing he was mentioned to be a gifted workman
[00:13:03] and he had a ton of skills and the Lord used them and he was proud to use them for his glory
[00:13:09] and I think that the Lord isn't afraid of us to express ourselves creatively
[00:13:14] whether that be through you know just sketching or writing
[00:13:18] even if it isn't exactly about Christian things which is something that we've had a whole class about
[00:13:23] at school worship when we were all there
[00:13:26] but just as long as it's unto God and we're using the gifts that he's given us
[00:13:30] he's going to bless it because he ultimately is the greatest artist right
[00:13:34] he was the one that formed the mountains and put the clouds in the sky
[00:13:38] and I think that's amazing to know that he wants us to have a piece of that gift
[00:13:43] So good Naya
[00:13:45] and it's interesting that you brought up the Tabernacle because I had that written down in my notes
[00:13:50] because when we were in school worship last year we read a book called Art in the Bible
[00:13:55] by Francis Schaefer and everyone needs to read this book
[00:13:58] like especially creative people but actually no
[00:14:02] especially the people who don't think they're creative people
[00:14:05] because this is a book that's really written for everyone
[00:14:08] and it's about art in the Christian's life
[00:14:11] and what place art has in the Christian's life
[00:14:14] and there's a part that is mentioned
[00:14:17] like you said about the Tabernacle and they were building the Tabernacle
[00:14:21] and I think the part where they're building the Tabernacle is the few chapters around like Exodus 25
[00:14:28] through I don't know
[00:14:30] let me find what I wanted to read from this book
[00:14:33] he's listing everything that the Israelites are building in the Tabernacle
[00:14:37] and God is giving specific instructions on what he wants the Tabernacle to look like
[00:14:42] and you know he tells them like exactly how to make the candlesticks
[00:14:47] and he tells them the kinds of colors he wants
[00:14:51] and the kinds of flowers and just the engravings that he wants
[00:14:55] these images represented in the Tabernacle
[00:14:59] and right here it says there's something further to note here
[00:15:03] in the building of the Tabernacle
[00:15:05] it says in nature pomegranates are red, right?
[00:15:08] God was asking for pomegranates like just little images and like carbenes of pomegranates
[00:15:13] to decorate it was part of the decorations
[00:15:16] so Francis Schaefer says in nature pomegranates are red
[00:15:20] but these pomegranates were to be blue, purple and scarlet
[00:15:24] now purple and scarlet could be natural changes in the growth of a pomegranate
[00:15:27] but blue isn't
[00:15:29] the implication is that there is freedom to make something which gets its impetus from nature
[00:15:35] that can be different from it
[00:15:37] and that too can be brought into the presence of God
[00:15:40] I thought that was so powerful that God was telling them to be creative
[00:15:46] and almost like he's telling them to think outside the box
[00:15:49] he's like, yeah I want you to make me a blue pomegranate
[00:15:52] because that's not seen anywhere
[00:15:54] that's not something that God created in our world
[00:15:57] but what really stood out to me
[00:16:00] and this goes back to when I was this when I read this chapter
[00:16:03] this reminded me back of when I want to say I was in fifth or sixth grade
[00:16:07] and I was homeschooled
[00:16:09] my mom and my brother and I were going through this
[00:16:12] we were going through the Old Testament
[00:16:14] and we were learning about how they made the tabernacle
[00:16:17] and we made a little like a scale model of the tabernacle
[00:16:20] like a little diorama kind of
[00:16:22] and we were reading about it
[00:16:24] we were making these things
[00:16:26] and I remember this distinctly
[00:16:28] because I had just been reading about how they made dye
[00:16:32] back in the Roman times
[00:16:34] boiling snails to make purple
[00:16:36] and like all these deep rich colors were like for royalty
[00:16:39] because they were so hard to create
[00:16:41] and so I was I remember reading about how they were building the tabernacle
[00:16:45] and I remember thinking
[00:16:47] you know God's asking for these royal rich colors
[00:16:50] like scarlet and blue and purple and gold
[00:16:54] and so I was that made me wonder
[00:16:57] is he asking for these colors
[00:16:59] because there are particular favorites of his
[00:17:03] like do you think he has favorite colors that he created of his creation
[00:17:08] or do you think he chose those colors
[00:17:10] because they were culturally beautiful to the Israelites
[00:17:13] and he was showing the Israelites that he values beauty
[00:17:18] and the same thing goes with the images that he chose
[00:17:20] like almond blossoms are listed
[00:17:22] lilies are listed
[00:17:23] pomegranates are listed
[00:17:25] and I almost wonder if
[00:17:27] those aren't particular favorite creations of God
[00:17:31] like I'm sure he loves those things
[00:17:34] because when he created everything he called it good
[00:17:37] but I don't know that he particularly prefers those things
[00:17:41] or if they would have been culturally seen as beautiful
[00:17:45] to the people that are building the temple
[00:17:47] and I think what he was showing them
[00:17:50] is how important beauty is to him
[00:17:53] and this is like this is what Holly was saying earlier
[00:17:56] and this is actually kind of the essence of what I wanted to talk about
[00:18:00] was the necessity of beauty
[00:18:03] and beauty just for beauty sake
[00:18:06] because the same thing happens later
[00:18:08] when Solomon is building the temple
[00:18:10] not just a moving tabernacle but like a standing temple
[00:18:13] he wants this to be God's house
[00:18:16] and they fill it with precious gems right
[00:18:20] and God has them fill it with precious gems
[00:18:24] and pretty things that hold no purpose
[00:18:27] other than being beautiful
[00:18:29] like there's gems in the walls
[00:18:32] that's not necessary
[00:18:34] but it's though through all these things
[00:18:37] God is showing the people just how much he values beauty
[00:18:42] and I grew up kind of thinking
[00:18:45] like I always kind of got the impression that beauty
[00:18:48] is the opposite of practicality
[00:18:51] like beauty is not necessary
[00:18:53] beauty is of course valuable
[00:18:55] it's more frivolous
[00:18:57] like it's not necessary
[00:18:59] it comes afterwards
[00:19:01] I feel like that's a lot of why there's a certain confusion
[00:19:04] around the idea of creativity
[00:19:07] and how people can think that creativity is like
[00:19:10] it's one trait that one person can have
[00:19:13] and some people might not have it
[00:19:15] because like we were saying
[00:19:17] sometimes I feel like we equate it to the final product
[00:19:20] and we compare the final product to other final products
[00:19:24] and they're like oh my painting sucks
[00:19:26] I'm not a very creative person
[00:19:28] but I feel like going back to beauty
[00:19:31] being the opposite of necessity
[00:19:33] or no what did I say
[00:19:34] beauty being the opposite of practicality
[00:19:36] I don't think that they have to be opposites
[00:19:40] I think that's something that we've somehow come
[00:19:43] to the conclusion of like in our society
[00:19:46] I feel like beauty is second to practicality
[00:19:50] but what made me think was that God holds it
[00:19:53] so valuable and he's showing us
[00:19:56] how much he values beauty
[00:19:58] and you see it as part of who God is
[00:20:01] it's one of the characteristics of God
[00:20:04] he's a beautiful God and he creates beautiful things
[00:20:07] and what made me wonder while reading this chapter was
[00:20:11] if beauty is unnecessary
[00:20:14] then why is it such an important aspect of God
[00:20:17] and why is it so important to God
[00:20:20] so I don't think beauty is unnecessary
[00:20:23] and I especially don't think it's unnecessary
[00:20:26] in a Christian's life
[00:20:27] because I don't remember who said it now
[00:20:29] but I feel like often
[00:20:31] I think it was Naya who touched a little bit on how
[00:20:35] we don't have to create like
[00:20:38] clearly blatantly Christian content
[00:20:41] to be creative as a Christian
[00:20:44] you know it's because I mean
[00:20:46] I've come across people who are like this
[00:20:48] this Christian band made a secular song
[00:20:51] that doesn't talk about God at all
[00:20:53] that doesn't mean they're not a Christian
[00:20:55] but I don't understand
[00:20:56] but that's so
[00:20:58] I feel like creativity and beauty is so important
[00:21:01] in a Christian's life
[00:21:02] because it's so important to God
[00:21:04] yes so good
[00:21:05] can I add something to that
[00:21:07] yes by all means
[00:21:09] okay this is something that I feel really strongly about
[00:21:12] because I grew up with this idea
[00:21:15] like if you're a Christian
[00:21:17] you should only listen to Christian music
[00:21:19] which strangely enough was a principle
[00:21:21] that didn't translate to movies
[00:21:23] I never heard anyone say you should only watch Christian movies
[00:21:25] but for some reason with music it was like
[00:21:27] the devil is gonna get you through those secular rock drum beats
[00:21:31] or something so
[00:21:32] yeah anyways
[00:21:33] you know
[00:21:34] the thing about it is
[00:21:35] God is an artist
[00:21:37] he is the original artist
[00:21:39] and I totally agree with you
[00:21:41] he created beauty for beauty's sake
[00:21:43] go back to the beginning
[00:21:44] think about what he did
[00:21:45] he created the world and he made it good
[00:21:47] and then he put his children in the world
[00:21:50] why did he do that
[00:21:51] because he wanted his children to enjoy the world
[00:21:54] like the world was made for enjoyment
[00:21:56] not just for us
[00:21:57] but for him
[00:21:58] for us to enjoy together
[00:21:59] like the ideal picture
[00:22:01] is one day in heaven
[00:22:02] we take a hike with Jesus up to the cliffs
[00:22:04] and watch a sunset together with him
[00:22:06] and he says hey
[00:22:07] I made that
[00:22:08] pretty cool huh
[00:22:09] and we're like oh yeah
[00:22:10] that's super cool that you made that
[00:22:11] that's awesome
[00:22:12] it's just one of those things where it's like
[00:22:14] I remember having a friend who was a worship leader
[00:22:16] and he was making Christian music
[00:22:18] and it was great
[00:22:19] he produced his own little CD
[00:22:21] and wrote a lot of worship songs
[00:22:23] and he was very well loved
[00:22:25] by people in the church
[00:22:26] because of what he did
[00:22:27] but then at some point
[00:22:28] he decided to branch out
[00:22:29] and he stopped playing worship at churches
[00:22:31] and he was like
[00:22:32] you know I'm gonna try to make
[00:22:34] some more mainstream music
[00:22:36] and people got disappointed at him
[00:22:38] they were like
[00:22:39] what are you doing man
[00:22:40] you're squandering your gift
[00:22:41] and it was this idea that
[00:22:43] you know because you're a Christian
[00:22:44] you should only make Christian music
[00:22:46] or you're not honoring God
[00:22:48] or glorifying God
[00:22:49] but here's the thing
[00:22:50] if I'm a painter
[00:22:51] and I paint across
[00:22:53] like is that glorifying God
[00:22:55] I mean yeah
[00:22:56] explicitly yes
[00:22:57] but if I paint a sunset
[00:22:59] is that honoring God
[00:23:00] I mean who made the original sunset
[00:23:02] you know it was God
[00:23:03] God did
[00:23:04] so I'm honoring God
[00:23:05] by painting a sunset
[00:23:06] I'm expressing creativity
[00:23:07] by imitating something
[00:23:09] that he originally made
[00:23:10] to be beautiful
[00:23:11] you know if you're a musician
[00:23:12] and you write a song about Jesus
[00:23:13] like yeah obviously
[00:23:14] that's glorifying God
[00:23:15] but if you write a love song
[00:23:17] well who's the one who invented love
[00:23:19] who's the one who made relationships
[00:23:21] to be beautiful wonderful things
[00:23:23] and of course you know
[00:23:24] I'm not talking about a love song
[00:23:25] that's inappropriate
[00:23:26] you know like a lot of music is today
[00:23:28] but the idea would be
[00:23:29] like if I just wrote a song
[00:23:30] about how I'm in love with a girl
[00:23:32] or if I attributed it to my wife
[00:23:33] or whatever
[00:23:34] God's glorified in that as well
[00:23:36] like he invented love
[00:23:37] he invented the sunset
[00:23:38] those things are beautiful to him
[00:23:40] and so I just think we need a broader view
[00:23:43] we need a wider scope
[00:23:45] of what is glorifying to God
[00:23:47] and what is not
[00:23:48] yes we need worship songs
[00:23:50] but I think we also need Christians
[00:23:51] making art that goes beyond worship
[00:23:54] because when we create things
[00:23:56] that are beautiful
[00:23:57] we are reflecting the beauty
[00:23:59] that is already in the nature
[00:24:01] that God himself has created
[00:24:03] and when we do that
[00:24:04] we're reflecting his nature
[00:24:05] and we're showing the world
[00:24:06] we are children of God
[00:24:08] because we're acting like our father
[00:24:10] we're creating
[00:24:11] because our God is a creative God
[00:24:14] going back to what you said
[00:24:23] Cory about practicality
[00:24:24] and beauty and creativity
[00:24:26] like not being mutually exclusive
[00:24:29] I think that is really powerful
[00:24:31] because when you think about it
[00:24:33] people tend to think
[00:24:34] in terms of mutually exclusive things
[00:24:36] you know we tend to think
[00:24:37] oh it's this so it can't be that
[00:24:39] but to God like
[00:24:41] there's no real exclusion there
[00:24:44] because I mean when you think about God
[00:24:46] you don't think oh wow
[00:24:48] he's just like this artist up there on a cloud
[00:24:50] like he's really not very practical
[00:24:52] but at least he makes beautiful things
[00:24:53] you know that's just not it
[00:24:55] like God made practicality too
[00:24:57] and to him they're the same thing
[00:24:59] because God never wastes anything
[00:25:02] like everything weaves into his story somehow
[00:25:06] and that's beautiful
[00:25:07] but it's also really practical
[00:25:09] so I think we have kind of a skewed view
[00:25:12] of practicality
[00:25:13] that it can't be beautiful
[00:25:15] or we have a kind of a skewed view
[00:25:17] of beauty that has no use
[00:25:19] like if we had a life without beauty in it
[00:25:22] then it would be a really sad life right
[00:25:24] like beauty holds so much meaning
[00:25:26] and when we see
[00:25:29] when we see meaning in our lives
[00:25:31] it is beautiful
[00:25:32] and so I think we have to kind of
[00:25:34] get that out of our heads
[00:25:35] that they're mutually exclusive
[00:25:37] and also I mean like you were saying as well Aaron
[00:25:40] like it doesn't have to be Christian
[00:25:43] to be beautiful right
[00:25:45] like God made so many other things
[00:25:47] that he called beautiful
[00:25:49] like there was no cross on the
[00:25:51] you know the first week of creation right
[00:25:53] like that is an ultimate statement
[00:25:56] of beauty that God made
[00:25:58] of like his declaration of love for us
[00:26:01] but there's so many other things
[00:26:03] it's like it's like just picking one topic
[00:26:05] and just like hammering the heck out of it
[00:26:07] you know it's like there's so much more
[00:26:09] that God's given us to talk
[00:26:11] and to think about
[00:26:12] like there's his whole word
[00:26:14] that we can troll for ideas
[00:26:16] I think to me it's quite challenging
[00:26:19] sometimes to listen to Christian music
[00:26:21] because it can be quite unoriginal
[00:26:23] which is very sad
[00:26:24] well I mean all you need is just four chords right
[00:26:26] I know I'm not even talking about the chords
[00:26:29] oh my gosh okay
[00:26:31] I'm not gonna say well maybe I will
[00:26:33] Andre was playing me a song earlier
[00:26:35] just while we were getting some work done
[00:26:37] or listening to some Christian music
[00:26:39] it's that one that goes nothing is better than you
[00:26:41] there is nothing
[00:26:43] better than you
[00:26:45] and it just says that over and over and over again
[00:26:47] until it goes nothing is better than me
[00:26:49] you know the chorus of this
[00:26:51] I get it oh my gosh this is like a kids song
[00:26:53] you know what I mean
[00:26:55] Yes repetition is the cornerstone of worship
[00:26:57] and the chords G, D, C
[00:26:59] and E
[00:27:01] it's good to meditate on things right
[00:27:03] music is also meant to help us
[00:27:05] meditate so it's good to repeat it
[00:27:07] but at the same time
[00:27:09] we have to delve into
[00:27:11] saying things differently and really
[00:27:13] trying to stretch the bounds
[00:27:15] because that's what it's meant to do for us as well
[00:27:17] like it's meant to help us
[00:27:19] grow up and like
[00:27:21] our brain stretch around something new
[00:27:23] you know to help you get in there
[00:27:25] and yeah broaden
[00:27:27] our brains a little bit I think art has so much potential
[00:27:29] for that and sometimes we can really
[00:27:31] limit that as Christians
[00:27:33] Yeah totally and God can use it in so many different ways
[00:27:35] because worship music obviously serves
[00:27:37] a purpose where it's specifically
[00:27:39] to help the church worship God
[00:27:41] but I know people who like I said who were Christian
[00:27:43] worship leaders who went out into the more
[00:27:45] secular world and started writing music
[00:27:47] but they're infusing
[00:27:49] in a much more subtle way
[00:27:51] they're infusing their theology
[00:27:53] into the lyrics of the songs
[00:27:55] but not in a way that like beats you over the head with it
[00:27:57] the way that worship music does it's more subtle
[00:27:59] and it's been so cool to hear from some
[00:28:01] of those friends who you know they're in the music scene
[00:28:03] in LA and people are asking
[00:28:05] them about their beliefs and about Jesus because of their
[00:28:07] music even though their music isn't explicitly
[00:28:09] Christian it can be enjoyed
[00:28:11] by anybody even those outside
[00:28:13] the church so yeah it's just
[00:28:15] it's a beautiful thing there
[00:28:17] It's beautiful and that keeps people's interest
[00:28:19] Exactly
[00:28:21] I'd love to add to that so
[00:28:23] my old worship leader
[00:28:25] he's in a band called
[00:28:27] Papalive and they have
[00:28:29] a song called Still Feel and it's like
[00:28:31] yeah it's a huge song they're
[00:28:33] phenomenal and they release
[00:28:35] their first album and
[00:28:37] the very last track on there
[00:28:39] is called Creature like this is not
[00:28:41] a Christian album they have a huge
[00:28:43] following they're always played on K-Rock
[00:28:45] and all sorts of different mainstream
[00:28:47] media they've been on the Tonight Show
[00:28:49] and different things like that but this
[00:28:51] song I think that every single person
[00:28:53] needs to listen to this song
[00:28:55] it is so beautiful
[00:28:57] and it's where they kind of
[00:28:59] just put their beliefs in
[00:29:01] in such a tasteful way
[00:29:03] and they have this amazing
[00:29:05] amazing kind of spoken word
[00:29:07] thing at the end that
[00:29:09] closes out their album and it says
[00:29:11] I'm looking forward to the day
[00:29:13] when life can grow without decay
[00:29:15] humanity is not alone when Jesus Christ
[00:29:17] sits on the throne his hidden years exposed
[00:29:19] to mess the selfish
[00:29:21] turns to selflessness and
[00:29:23] I just I
[00:29:25] was so emotional when I heard that for the first
[00:29:27] time because I was so so proud
[00:29:29] it like going back
[00:29:31] from like a biblical standpoint
[00:29:33] obviously you look at
[00:29:35] heaven it's beautiful just like
[00:29:37] we were saying because God delights
[00:29:39] in beauty and he delights in what
[00:29:41] he's made we can say this
[00:29:43] but he saw us and we saw that we're good
[00:29:45] and we were perfect and we were how he
[00:29:47] wanted us to be made like
[00:29:49] it wasn't an accident and we see
[00:29:51] like in Revelation
[00:29:53] 21 21
[00:29:55] the 12 gates were 12 pearls
[00:29:57] each individual gate was of
[00:29:59] one pearl and the street of the city was
[00:30:01] pure gold like transparent
[00:30:03] glass it doesn't say that
[00:30:05] each pearl had different imagery on it
[00:30:07] like a crown of thorns and
[00:30:09] across and a portrait
[00:30:11] of Jesus's face no there are
[00:30:13] pearls that God thinks is beautiful
[00:30:15] and he intentionally placed them there
[00:30:17] and I think that's
[00:30:19] amazing to understand
[00:30:21] that it doesn't
[00:30:23] mean that heaven is any less
[00:30:25] touched by the spirit of God we see
[00:30:27] that everyone is worshiping Jesus
[00:30:29] and God everywhere
[00:30:31] and the Holy Spirit is just
[00:30:33] filling everything and
[00:30:35] we see that in Hebrews 12
[00:30:37] 22 23 heaven will be
[00:30:39] a city built for worship that's it
[00:30:41] and I have something to add
[00:30:43] on that Naya and then what Holly was
[00:30:45] saying too I feel like
[00:30:47] kind of like what you were saying Holly
[00:30:49] how there we see things
[00:30:51] as how did you
[00:30:53] how did you word that? Mutually exclusive
[00:30:55] yes we see things as mutually
[00:30:57] exclusive when they're not
[00:30:59] so we see like beauty
[00:31:01] as secondary to practicality
[00:31:03] like that's added
[00:31:05] on later to make it pretty
[00:31:07] and I think a lot of Christians can
[00:31:09] see art and beauty
[00:31:11] as secondary to like
[00:31:13] even just winning souls to the gospel
[00:31:15] like we
[00:31:17] we think of our we think of
[00:31:19] Christianity as being like
[00:31:21] yeah we're gonna reach people and we're
[00:31:23] gonna share God and we're gonna like bring
[00:31:25] God's love to people
[00:31:27] but that's not mutually exclusive from creating
[00:31:29] either because I've seen
[00:31:31] before those ideas
[00:31:33] being opposing and
[00:31:35] I don't think that they should be
[00:31:37] because like you guys
[00:31:39] were saying Naya and Holly there are
[00:31:41] so much there's so much
[00:31:43] potential and there's so much
[00:31:45] experience that people can
[00:31:47] come to when you see
[00:31:49] art that you resonate with and the
[00:31:51] the big thing is that we as
[00:31:53] humans resonate so deeply with
[00:31:55] things that are artistic of all mediums
[00:31:57] like visual art
[00:31:59] you know paintings like musical
[00:32:01] art even literature
[00:32:03] and this is the reason why
[00:32:05] I love literature
[00:32:07] and art and music so much
[00:32:09] because they're so impactful
[00:32:11] culturally
[00:32:13] and they bring people together
[00:32:15] with through like people can make connections
[00:32:17] through them because
[00:32:19] especially with literature
[00:32:21] I'll give the example because that's like an easy
[00:32:23] one to think of if I read
[00:32:25] a book that is just
[00:32:27] really impactful to me the
[00:32:29] messages of it were like so
[00:32:31] compelling the characters
[00:32:33] like I lived
[00:32:35] through their eyes and I experienced
[00:32:37] what they did if someone
[00:32:39] reads that book and experiences
[00:32:41] that book we already
[00:32:43] have a shared experience
[00:32:45] that's a connection that we know
[00:32:47] and the same thing happens with visual
[00:32:49] art I there are a lot of
[00:32:51] paintings that I've seen like
[00:32:53] I really love
[00:32:55] impressionism so I
[00:32:57] love like Renoir and Monet
[00:32:59] and Van Gogh
[00:33:01] and I have
[00:33:03] experienced things while
[00:33:05] looking at the painting
[00:33:07] because I'm having it's almost
[00:33:09] a sense of empathy like
[00:33:11] you're seeing what an artist
[00:33:13] was feeling when he painted that
[00:33:15] and when another person
[00:33:17] resonates with that too now you have
[00:33:19] a shared connection outside of the
[00:33:21] art itself and I love
[00:33:23] how impactful art is
[00:33:25] to culture and how necessary
[00:33:27] it is to the development
[00:33:29] of culture and the development of humanity
[00:33:31] and that's why I think art
[00:33:33] is so powerful and should not
[00:33:35] be seen secondary to a Christian's
[00:33:37] life because not
[00:33:39] everyone's going to be called to
[00:33:41] witness through their art but
[00:33:43] it's such a necessary part of us
[00:33:45] as humans to be creative
[00:33:47] because it's a necessary aspect
[00:33:49] of God and it's something that God
[00:33:51] has given us it's a gift that God has
[00:33:53] given us and I feel like
[00:33:55] there's so much empathy to be
[00:33:57] found in art I feel like
[00:33:59] that's kind of one of the essential
[00:34:01] things about art that's how you reach people
[00:34:03] people can make like I said
[00:34:05] people can make connections through art
[00:34:07] and through music and while
[00:34:09] it's true that a lot of worship
[00:34:11] music can be quite repetitive
[00:34:13] and quite shallow
[00:34:15] I feel like that's such an
[00:34:17] important medium because
[00:34:19] so many people love music
[00:34:21] everyone loves music
[00:34:23] music is the thing God created
[00:34:25] for everyone to love I've never
[00:34:27] met a person who doesn't like
[00:34:29] it's so essential to us
[00:34:31] I feel like it's so essential to
[00:34:33] our culture and to be fair
[00:34:35] a lot of the most popular pop music
[00:34:37] is really really repetitive
[00:34:39] yeah and there's a reason for that
[00:34:41] I mean it's catchy and people
[00:34:43] you know people enjoy the sound of it but it also
[00:34:45] it might even get stuck in
[00:34:47] their head you might know the lyrics to a worship
[00:34:49] song a lot better if it's
[00:34:51] a lot catchier yeah yeah
[00:34:53] totally but I don't think
[00:34:55] songs that you know you might think
[00:34:57] of like you said Holly is like it's almost like
[00:34:59] a children's song like it's
[00:35:01] so simple in essence like of course
[00:35:03] we know this we've grown up
[00:35:05] with it from Sunday school everyone knows this
[00:35:07] but those can those things
[00:35:09] can be so powerful too and those
[00:35:11] things can reach people in ways
[00:35:13] that they might not be able to reach me
[00:35:15] because again we're all individuals
[00:35:17] and we're all original
[00:35:19] and we all have our own separate
[00:35:21] experiences and
[00:35:23] you like you said Erin when
[00:35:25] you were you were kind of like
[00:35:27] beating yourself up for making
[00:35:29] you know your finished product
[00:35:31] was not what you wanted it to be
[00:35:33] it sounded cheesy to you and you didn't think
[00:35:35] it was a very high quality
[00:35:37] but it reached someone
[00:35:39] someone resonated with it
[00:35:41] and I feel like that's
[00:35:43] so powerful in the way
[00:35:45] that we can create and we can
[00:35:47] reach people outside of
[00:35:49] just plain words you know
[00:35:51] amen
[00:35:55] yeah
[00:35:59] I think it's a thing that
[00:36:01] with specifically like worship
[00:36:03] music and stuff that it gets
[00:36:05] very repetitive and
[00:36:07] I think that also reflects like that creativity
[00:36:09] doesn't always have to be like
[00:36:11] this complex thing as well
[00:36:13] I feel like just that is kind of
[00:36:15] the medium like sometimes like
[00:36:17] when we're doing worship songs
[00:36:19] and stuff like that maybe it's really repetitive
[00:36:21] because that's just something we all just really
[00:36:23] need in our hearts like I
[00:36:25] remember when that song first came out
[00:36:27] I remember just like hearing random people
[00:36:29] singing just oh there's nothing
[00:36:31] better than you and just
[00:36:33] like people just going around singing that and I was
[00:36:35] like man this is like the simplest song ever
[00:36:37] but it's true like sometimes we just need to like
[00:36:39] sit there and remind ourselves there's nothing
[00:36:41] better than him and and I love
[00:36:43] that like I love how the Lord
[00:36:45] will give us things like that and then like someone
[00:36:47] was literally able to make a song out of
[00:36:49] something so simple and like
[00:36:51] and that just shows you like how simple
[00:36:53] like creativity can be like
[00:36:55] I feel like sometimes it can be
[00:36:57] really intimidating because we feel like it has
[00:36:59] to be this big giant extravagant
[00:37:01] thing that's just like totally like out
[00:37:03] of the box and insane and crazy
[00:37:05] but like creativity
[00:37:07] is just like it's just an original
[00:37:09] thought like literally like it doesn't have to be
[00:37:11] like the most insane like
[00:37:13] incredible thing ever but it can just
[00:37:15] be like this little simple song
[00:37:17] that we keep stuck in our head and you sing over
[00:37:19] and over again so and there's beauty
[00:37:21] in that isn't that like amazing
[00:37:23] I love that that there is beauty
[00:37:25] in the fact that there's something so
[00:37:27] tiny that and bite size that we can
[00:37:29] take and like it's beautiful like I love
[00:37:31] that so yeah and I don't
[00:37:33] want to knock simple songs I
[00:37:35] love I have loved some
[00:37:37] very simple songs because sometimes you need
[00:37:39] that you need to hang on to it you know
[00:37:41] I think the thing about
[00:37:43] music is that in other art forms
[00:37:45] as well is that you can tell
[00:37:47] someone something logically
[00:37:49] in a straightforward way
[00:37:51] I mean not through art in other
[00:37:53] words you can tell someone something
[00:37:55] in prose you can reason
[00:37:57] it through with them but
[00:37:59] unless you can really reach their heart
[00:38:01] it's not really going to stick
[00:38:03] because we all have had those times
[00:38:05] where you're like you can say to yourself
[00:38:07] I believe this thing and
[00:38:09] you do not act on it and for all intents
[00:38:11] and purposes you do not believe that thing
[00:38:13] you logically are sent to it
[00:38:15] but you don't actually believe it
[00:38:17] and what music and art help us
[00:38:19] do is connect the dots kind of
[00:38:21] you have to connect your left brain with
[00:38:23] your right brain and have it all work together
[00:38:25] in order to be a whole person
[00:38:27] you know you can't just rely on your
[00:38:29] your logic logical side of your brain
[00:38:31] to live you actually need
[00:38:33] your emotions to be in line with that
[00:38:35] and that's what music helps us
[00:38:37] do is when we sing truths
[00:38:39] and we let them sink in and we meditate
[00:38:41] on them or you know when we take
[00:38:43] a moment to emphasize with an artist
[00:38:45] through their art piece like
[00:38:47] we're fostering that connection
[00:38:49] to our right side brain
[00:38:51] which is the emotional center
[00:38:53] and we are giving that space
[00:38:55] to have value and we're
[00:38:57] becoming a whole person through that
[00:38:59] and we have to like you know
[00:39:01] with the love of lord with your
[00:39:03] heart soul mind like all
[00:39:05] of your mind not just your left side brain
[00:39:07] you know you have to love him with your right
[00:39:09] side brain as well so it is
[00:39:11] really important that's why God gave us
[00:39:13] beauty and art because
[00:39:15] he's not just rules and commandments
[00:39:17] he's an emotional God too
[00:39:19] he's left and right brain
[00:39:21] and we have to have left and right brain
[00:39:23] to really connect with them
[00:39:25] now like you said there's things aren't mutually exclusive
[00:39:27] you know God's created everything
[00:39:29] and I love
[00:39:31] I loved what you just said
[00:39:33] about like connecting
[00:39:35] connecting to God through that and
[00:39:37] like I said before there's so much empathy
[00:39:39] and love and I feel like
[00:39:41] because it's based art
[00:39:43] comes from God and I
[00:39:45] feel like art can often
[00:39:47] be based in love
[00:39:49] I feel like art is connected to love
[00:39:51] and empathy is connected to love
[00:39:53] and I feel like you can't
[00:39:55] experience beauty
[00:39:57] without experiencing love
[00:39:59] because both are things that come from God
[00:40:01] and I wanted
[00:40:03] sorry I wasn't planning to share this
[00:40:05] but I needed to share this
[00:40:07] I found this yesterday while I was at work and I was listening to an audiobook.
[00:40:12] I'm rereading one of my very, very favorite books of all time, Anne of Green Gables.
[00:40:18] And if anyone listening is not familiar with the plot, I'll give you a summary.
[00:40:24] But if you're not, what are you doing? Go read the book.
[00:40:27] Yeah, it's the best.
[00:40:29] It's the best!
[00:40:30] Go read the book.
[00:40:31] I'm rereading it now that I'm older and I was working yesterday.
[00:40:35] I was at work and I was listening to my audiobook and I came across this sentence.
[00:40:39] And it hit me like a brick wall and I had to skip it back and re-listen to it so many times.
[00:40:44] I had to go find it in actual words and like highlight it.
[00:40:48] And so the context of this sentence is Anne is an orphan girl who's being adopted by
[00:40:55] a brother and sister, an old maid and an old bachelor.
[00:40:57] And this is her first or second night there at their house.
[00:41:02] And the woman who adopted her, Marilla, is telling her to say her prayers.
[00:41:07] And Anne's never said prayers before.
[00:41:09] And Marilla's kind of shocked.
[00:41:10] She's like, oh my goodness!
[00:41:12] You need to say your prayers!
[00:41:13] And she's realizing that Anne doesn't have any context of who God is really
[00:41:19] because she hasn't really been taught.
[00:41:20] She's never been taught to say her prayers.
[00:41:22] She knows who God is.
[00:41:24] She's been to church before.
[00:41:26] But what it says is...
[00:41:27] I'm just going to read the whole paragraph.
[00:41:29] It says, Marilla felt more embarrassed than ever.
[00:41:32] She had intended to teach Anne the childish classic, Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep.
[00:41:36] But she had, as I told you, the glimmerings of a sense of humor,
[00:41:39] which is simply another name for the sense of the fitness of things.
[00:41:43] And it suddenly occurred to her that simple little prayer,
[00:41:46] sacred to white robe childhood, lispy and motherly knees,
[00:41:50] was entirely unsuited to this freckled witch of a girl who,
[00:41:53] and this is the part I highlighted because this is what hit me,
[00:41:56] this girl who knew and cared nothing about God's love
[00:42:00] because she had never had it translated to her through the medium of human love.
[00:42:05] And that was so powerful to me because we are,
[00:42:09] human love is a medium of God's love.
[00:42:12] Human love comes from God's love.
[00:42:14] And our expression of love is showing God's expression of love.
[00:42:19] You know, we're going back to God.
[00:42:21] We're pointing back to God.
[00:42:23] And that's what happens in our art.
[00:42:26] Our art is pointing back to God.
[00:42:29] And the empathy that happens when we connect through art,
[00:42:33] that's pointing back to the connections that God has created for us through this medium.
[00:42:39] And I found that to be so powerful because we are images of God
[00:42:46] and we are vessels for God's love in every aspect of our life,
[00:42:50] but especially in the way that we can connect to people
[00:42:54] and we can connect to people through art.
[00:42:57] And I found such power in that sentence just have,
[00:43:02] it was another way of wording it for me.
[00:43:04] It just, it hit me because it put that concept into new words for me.
[00:43:10] And I realized just how much, not even just responsibility that is,
[00:43:15] but kind of what power that is and what like inspiration that is
[00:43:20] that I am a representative of God in everything I do.
[00:43:24] And my love is going to express God's love to people.
[00:43:29] And I think that carries over again, like I said, into every aspect of our lives,
[00:43:33] but especially in art because that is from God.
[00:43:37] Art is from God and it is a mirror image of something that God has created.
[00:43:49] Corey, everything you said was so beautiful.
[00:43:51] And if I could just take a moment, I'd like to get just a tiny bit pastoral.
[00:43:55] So, you know, I get a sense that people listening to this show,
[00:43:59] a majority of you like everybody in his conversation,
[00:44:02] you're probably creatives.
[00:44:04] So there's a good chance you're a creative person.
[00:44:06] And maybe you went to the school of worship and you're listening
[00:44:09] because your friends made this show.
[00:44:11] And if that's you, I just want to encourage all of you listening
[00:44:13] who identify as a creative.
[00:44:15] You know, I feel like, I feel like we grew up hearing and thinking
[00:44:19] that God is pleased when we're doing Christian things,
[00:44:23] like going to church, singing worship songs, leading Bible study,
[00:44:27] listening to Bible studies.
[00:44:29] And he is pleased by those things.
[00:44:30] Absolutely.
[00:44:31] When we do those things for very specific reasons, he's pleased.
[00:44:35] But I feel like we forget about the reality of the fatherhood of God
[00:44:40] and that he is our Father.
[00:44:42] And you know, a Father isn't just pleased with their kids
[00:44:44] when they're going to church or reading their Bible.
[00:44:46] They're pleased with them because of who they are
[00:44:50] and who they've been made to be.
[00:44:51] And I just want everyone to know, I understand,
[00:44:55] like when you're expressing your creativity in any way,
[00:44:58] whether it's writing a poem or a song or drawing a cartoon
[00:45:01] or painting a painting or making a podcast
[00:45:03] or just think of any creative thing that you like to do.
[00:45:07] When you're doing it, God is pleased.
[00:45:10] He's blessed.
[00:45:10] He delights in you just because you're you.
[00:45:15] And by you using your creative gifts,
[00:45:17] even if it's not for the church,
[00:45:19] you're expressing the reality that you're his child
[00:45:22] and that you've been gifted to be like him.
[00:45:24] And so just know that he delights in you.
[00:45:28] He's pleased in you as you express your creativity.
[00:45:32] He's stoked.
[00:45:32] And, you know, I mean, think about it this way.
[00:45:35] Like if you're wondering, is God pleased with my art or not?
[00:45:38] You know, just bring it down to the basics
[00:45:40] of like a little kid and a father.
[00:45:41] If a little kid draws a picture just for the sake of drawing it,
[00:45:45] is the dad stoked?
[00:45:45] Yeah, absolutely. It's awesome.
[00:45:47] It's adorable.
[00:45:47] He's he's blessed by his kid.
[00:45:50] You know, the dad's an artist.
[00:45:52] And so he's like, wow, my kid is taking after me.
[00:45:54] That's that's beautiful.
[00:45:55] I'm going to take that drawing and put it on my fridge
[00:45:58] just because I delight in my child.
[00:46:01] Now, if that kid draws a picture
[00:46:03] and it's specifically a picture drawn to bless others,
[00:46:06] then the dad's stoked about that too.
[00:46:07] He's like, wow, this is awesome.
[00:46:08] Not only is my child expressing creativity,
[00:46:11] but they're doing it as a gift to others
[00:46:13] and to help and encourage others.
[00:46:15] They're not just taking after my artistry,
[00:46:17] but they're also taking after my love and care for others.
[00:46:21] And so the father's pleased.
[00:46:22] And you know, what about, you know,
[00:46:24] when is the father displeased with the art?
[00:46:26] I think the only time that father is displeased
[00:46:28] is if the kid is creating art specifically to hurt others
[00:46:32] or to undermine the family and what the family is about.
[00:46:35] That's that's where you got to be careful.
[00:46:36] But it's so much bigger than just creating
[00:46:39] specifically Christian art.
[00:46:41] God is pleased with you as you express your creativity.
[00:46:44] So I just want everyone to understand
[00:46:46] that he delights in you.
[00:46:48] He loves you and he's blessed.
[00:46:50] Anytime you express your creativity,
[00:46:52] whether it's a masterpiece or whether you think it's garbage,
[00:46:55] he's blessed because he loves you
[00:46:57] and he's given you these gifts
[00:46:59] and he's excited to see you use them.
[00:47:01] So take comfort in that and be encouraged in that.
[00:47:20] I think that art just has something
[00:47:23] that's really powerful.
[00:47:24] Like creativity does in general.
[00:47:26] And there's a lot of fear that comes up
[00:47:29] whenever we're creating.
[00:47:30] Like when we think of creativity
[00:47:33] or having to make up our own like original ideas,
[00:47:36] like we tend to be fearful.
[00:47:39] And I think it is because of what Corey was saying earlier
[00:47:43] is because like it's literally a translation
[00:47:46] that like of God's love.
[00:47:48] Like I feel like whenever we create and we produce stuff,
[00:47:50] like we're translating the character of God to other people.
[00:47:54] And I feel like that's why we have so much fear in it
[00:47:57] because every time, like as a Christian,
[00:47:59] anytime I create something,
[00:48:01] like it's gonna have a reflection of my heart
[00:48:03] like for the Father
[00:48:04] and it's gonna have a reflection of the Holy Spirit
[00:48:07] like that's living within me.
[00:48:09] And so when we think of creativity,
[00:48:11] like I feel like that's why there is a lot of fear
[00:48:13] to create is because like,
[00:48:16] I think like honestly, the enemy is intimidated
[00:48:19] by like the power that we have through creativity
[00:48:22] to translate the love of God to people.
[00:48:25] And so that's kind of like what I got from
[00:48:26] like whenever you were talking earlier,
[00:48:28] just like how powerful it is
[00:48:31] and like why we have so much fear
[00:48:33] and why we're so scared sometimes
[00:48:35] to kind of put out these like cheesy things
[00:48:37] or things that we feel like aren't adequate enough.
[00:48:41] It's because literally like whenever we do that,
[00:48:43] like we're ministering to people.
[00:48:46] You know, we're showing the heart of God to people.
[00:48:49] I was just kind of thinking just on the idea of like
[00:48:52] Corey and Holly, you guys are talking about
[00:48:54] like the mutual exclusivity between like beauty
[00:48:58] and like Christian art and the practicality of it.
[00:49:01] Like and then like what you were talking about
[00:49:03] with just like God's beauty
[00:49:06] and love being shown through our own love
[00:49:09] and the way we create.
[00:49:10] And I think sometimes, I don't know,
[00:49:13] I think we when we create and we try to like
[00:49:16] shove the gospel into what we're making,
[00:49:19] like sometimes our focus is too much on getting
[00:49:22] like scripture and Jesus like explicitly into our art
[00:49:26] that it's not like we don't even that's like
[00:49:29] that's our main focus and there's no
[00:49:31] in the end result is no beauty there
[00:49:33] because we're just kind of trying to
[00:49:35] like obviously the end goal is to glorify God
[00:49:38] but like that we don't have to do it by
[00:49:40] like singing Jesus words and like singing Jesus's name over
[00:49:44] and over again and singing like explicit words that are like
[00:49:46] from scripture.
[00:49:47] Like I think something I try I strive to do
[00:49:50] and I'm not great at it but I strive for this
[00:49:52] and I hope I wish more Christian artists would do this
[00:49:56] is just to like write honestly and like from their own experiences
[00:49:59] because I don't know, I think there's so much more
[00:50:03] potential to reach people that way
[00:50:05] and like from our own pain and our own hurts
[00:50:09] and our own experiences like that's what's going to connect with people
[00:50:11] and especially people who aren't like believers
[00:50:13] like obviously worship music that's singing scripture
[00:50:16] and it's glorifying God can reach people who aren't believers
[00:50:19] but I think for the most part like that's created for us
[00:50:22] who are in the church to worship
[00:50:24] and I think yeah I don't know I just think when we write
[00:50:27] like that's probably the hardest way to create
[00:50:30] is just to be honest with ourselves
[00:50:31] because we have to open up and we kind of have to examine
[00:50:34] our own hurts and things that that we've struggled with
[00:50:38] but I think in the end like that's what is going to reach people the most
[00:50:41] and that's what's gonna like that doesn't glorify God any less
[00:50:45] than corporate worship songs
[00:50:48] like they both they're both bringing glory to God
[00:50:51] I just think yeah and kind of going back to our
[00:50:55] their like originality thing we talked about like early in the episode
[00:50:58] but just like our own originality
[00:51:01] and our own experiences that God has given us
[00:51:03] like that's those are things that God has given us to share with people
[00:51:08] and to be able to empathize with people
[00:51:09] and like you guys were saying like there's that fear of creating things
[00:51:14] and whether like we see them we see our own experiences maybe
[00:51:18] and writing about them as silly or like as like nobody's gonna get anything from this
[00:51:22] but it's I think through writing about those things
[00:51:25] that's how we're going to connect with other people
[00:51:26] because we're not the only one to have dealt with
[00:51:28] the things that we've dealt with
[00:51:29] there are so many other people who have had the same struggles that we've had
[00:51:32] and when we sing about those things we write about those things
[00:51:35] when we share those things like people will connect with those things
[00:51:38] and I think that's a in that way people will we can point people to Jesus
[00:51:44] and just to truth and yeah just expressing those things and yeah
[00:51:50] okay yeah it's true there are connections to be found in art
[00:52:02] especially when you're expressing yourself because like you said people
[00:52:05] there are going to be people with similar experiences who resonate with that
[00:52:09] and I've often kind of thought that there are really two kinds of art
[00:52:14] and there's like the art of expressing yourself
[00:52:16] and then there's the art of making something beautiful just for beauty's sake
[00:52:21] and I don't think these are mutually exclusive at all
[00:52:24] in fact I'm not quite sure that they can be mutually exclusive
[00:52:27] because just the action of expressing yourself is something that's beautiful
[00:52:32] and to make something beautiful will have part of yourself in it
[00:52:37] because it will be part of your own unique creativity
[00:52:41] but I feel like I especially see this when you look at like modern art
[00:52:45] as in like expressing yourself like it doesn't have to look pretty to be beautiful
[00:52:49] you know it can be an expression of yourself and people can resonate with it
[00:52:52] and people can find meaning in it
[00:52:54] and then if you go back to like classical art or like I was talking about
[00:52:58] impressionist art not all of these paintings have to have a specific meaning behind them
[00:53:03] a lot of them do but some of them are just pretty and that's beautiful in itself
[00:53:08] and that is meaning in itself to have something that just exists to be beautiful
[00:53:14] and I think that that's kind of exactly what you're talking about Kai like
[00:53:19] if we want to make connections to people through our art
[00:53:22] see if you don't have expression of yourself through your art
[00:53:27] and you're not creating something just to be beautiful
[00:53:31] you're not creating something for art's sake like say you have like another agenda
[00:53:34] like you're just trying to get another song done
[00:53:38] I might not put like I have a deadline
[00:53:40] I might not put everything I wanted into this song
[00:53:44] I might just be writing whatever Christian words come to the top of my head
[00:53:48] it's not gonna resonate with people because I'm not expressing myself
[00:53:52] in the creative freedom that God's given me
[00:53:55] and I'm not creating something for art's sake for beauty's sake
[00:54:00] I'm trying to get things done so I totally see what you're saying about
[00:54:03] people can come with like similar experiences and make similar connections
[00:54:09] and I think it's high spec's what we were talking about before about empathy
[00:54:12] art can give us empathy because that's something from God too
[00:54:16] God wants to connect with us because really what were humans created for
[00:54:21] its relationship we were created to have a relationship with God
[00:54:24] and then we were created to have a relationship with people
[00:54:28] the very essence of our being is to connect to people
[00:54:31] and to connect to God and I feel like that's so
[00:54:34] powerful because that really comes in into anything we do
[00:54:38] because that's kind of how we're wired so art is such a broad term but it's
[00:54:44] such a powerful way to express yourself to people
[00:54:48] and have them understand it's just a great way for them to connect
[00:54:51] and then for them to find empathy with your experience
[00:54:55] and I feel like that's in essence kind of what we've been talking about is just
[00:54:59] I mean we ask like what does creativity mean to us
[00:55:03] what does creativity mean to a Christian
[00:55:06] what place does creativity have in a Christian's life
[00:55:09] and I think it's to reach people and to reach God to make connections with
[00:55:14] people and to make connections with God
[00:55:17] and through that we can bring people to God
[00:55:20] we can make a connection from people to God
[00:55:24] I think that's so powerful and such it's just such a beautiful thing
[00:55:28] that art is something God has given us
[00:55:31] creativity is something God has given us and it's so
[00:55:35] integrals who are humanity and everyone you know
[00:55:39] everyone can resonate with art in creativity like it's something that
[00:55:43] so even in even culturally art is everywhere
[00:55:46] music is everywhere writing is everywhere
[00:55:49] everyone creates and everyone thinks and everyone finds these you know
[00:55:55] connections and these messages within art
[00:55:58] and that's such a powerful way to make connections
[00:56:02] I feel like because I think Holly was saying earlier like you can only say
[00:56:05] so much with words and that's a great way to communicate
[00:56:08] that's that's a wonderful way to communicate that's the way we usually
[00:56:11] communicate but powerful things can be said
[00:56:15] when we can make connections to each other and we can empathize
[00:56:19] through art because art is something we all resonate with
[00:56:22] because like I said creativity is part of humanity and creativity is something
[00:56:26] that comes from God so we can all resonate with that
[00:56:29] and I think that's super cool to think about that is really cool yeah that's
[00:56:32] that's really good yeah some of my like I was listening to a podcast
[00:56:36] recently where there's artists guitar play from one of my favorite bands
[00:56:40] and like they don't they're all Christians but they don't sing about
[00:56:44] God per se they don't sing like explicitly about
[00:56:47] Christian things it's kind of just singing about life some of those songs are
[00:56:50] love songs some of them are just I don't know just
[00:56:53] songs they've written but there's songs that like other people connect with
[00:56:56] and like they're talking about at their shows like
[00:56:59] they write about similar experiences that other people
[00:57:02] resonate with and they connect over those things and through those
[00:57:05] like conversations they have with people afterwards like they're able to
[00:57:09] connect and then like you know there's a connection there and then
[00:57:13] that gives opportunity for like deeper conversations and
[00:57:16] you know that can lead to conversations about God and like why
[00:57:19] you're able to get through like a hard experience that you've gone through
[00:57:23] and so yeah I think just whether we're explicitly singing about
[00:57:27] like the Bible or Christian things are God like
[00:57:29] it's the like you said the empathy and the ability to
[00:57:33] connect with other people through like shared experiences and
[00:57:37] yeah just the honesty in writing about those things and singing about those
[00:57:40] things that really I think is important there. I love hearing all of your guys's
[00:57:45] points and the stuff that you were talking about with creativity and just
[00:57:48] and just the importance of it I think this is a really important discussion
[00:57:51] that we have today and so yeah thank you guys for all like just all the
[00:57:55] things that you said it really blessed my heart and I'm sure it's
[00:57:57] blessing everyone else so yeah but honestly anyone who's
[00:58:00] listening to this if you would like to learn more about creativity
[00:58:04] if you have an interest in worship like check out the school worship
[00:58:08] Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa it's a really awesome school that's where all of the
[00:58:13] Good Voice Collective interns have come from so if you want to be a part of it
[00:58:18] you should check it out they're on instagram they have a website it's super
[00:58:22] cool so yeah feel free to check it out thank you
[00:58:24] guys for supporting us we love you guys and we're so thankful that you've
[00:58:28] tuned in with us to listen to our voices and allow us to have this
[00:58:32] platform to be able to speak to you so we're signing off bye. Bye!
[00:58:38] Hey guys this is Aaron Savardo producer of the show and director of the Good Lion
[00:58:47] podcast network I just wanted to pop in here at the very end to
[00:58:50] sneak in some praise for the Good Lion interns what a great season of this
[00:58:54] podcast I'm seriously so proud of these guys
[00:58:57] they dedicated their Friday afternoods for the entire summer to write
[00:59:01] plan and record this podcast and I'm so blessed to see the result
[00:59:05] the heart and character of these interns is totally amazing and I
[00:59:08] enjoyed meeting with them on Friday mornings to talk and dream about what
[00:59:11] this podcast could be and now it's so cool to see what it's become
[00:59:14] you know I think so many times as a young person in the church you can feel
[00:59:18] like you can't make a difference or that you don't have a voice
[00:59:21] but it was awesome to see them prove that idea wrong with this show and
[00:59:25] to use their voices to discuss all sorts of complicated topics in a way
[00:59:29] that pointed people back to the most important thing which is Jesus.
[00:59:32] I'm so glad you enjoyed our show if you want to help support the work we
[00:59:36] do at CGN and the Good Lion podcast network and if you want to help us make
[00:59:40] more great content like this visit goodlion.io
[00:59:44] slash support with that it's time for Shavi to close us out
[00:59:48] one last time thanks for listening to The Good Voice Collective
[00:59:52] this show was put together by the Good Lion interns
[00:59:55] and our editor and executive producer is Erin Salvato
[00:59:58] we are a proud part of the Good Lion podcast network in CGN
[01:00:02] you can find all our episodes and more great podcast content
[01:00:06] other website goodlion.io we hope you enjoyed this episode and we hope it
[01:00:10] makes you think, leaves you encouraged and helps you walk closer with Jesus
[01:00:15] thanks for joining us it's our hope here are the Good Voice Collective
[01:00:18] that we can be a collective of Christ's followers who use our voices for God's
[01:00:23] Kingdom we hope we've inspired you to use
[01:00:25] your voice for good
