Where is God our Pain? With Bethany Sollereder

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Pursuing Faith podcast, where we explore questions of faith, doubt, and life.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I am your host, Dominic Done.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm here with Dr. Bethany Sollereder. Bethany is a leading theologian currently at the University

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: of Edinburgh, and she specializes in the relationship between theology, science,

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and as we'll talk about today, the problem of suffering.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Tremendous academic background, earned her PhD in theology from the University of Exeter,

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: where she focused on the theological implications of science.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: She's the author of some amazing books, God, Evolution, and Animal Suffering,

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: which I read a few months ago, and then her most recent work, Why Is There Suffering?

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Pick your own theological expedition, which is so intriguing and invites readers to explore

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: various perspectives on suffering through an interactive format.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So welcome, Bethany. Thank you for being here.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. It's a complete pleasure to be able to join you. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned that we may hear some bagpipes soon in the background.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm actually hoping we do.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm here on location in New College, which anybody who's been to Edinburgh,

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the first thing you notice about the city is the castle. And just below that,

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a sort of neo-Gothic building with two towers. And that happens to be the Faculty

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of Divinity where I work. And at the moment, we're in the middle of the fringe. And so,

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, something like 3000 shows are going on every day. And our lovely home here is also a

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: venue. So we have crowds of people coming in and out. And we may hear some of them. But yes,

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: bagpipes are a regular part of working here.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I am actually really jealous you get to work there because Edinburgh is one of my favorite cities.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: My daughter actually was just there visiting with some friends and she's sending over photos. And

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: she's like, it's like Hogwarts and showing the pictures of the castle. That's where you are

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: right now. It's incredible. Well, I personally want to thank you because in some of my PhD work,

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it has dealt a lot with subject matter we're going to discuss today. And your work and your thinking,

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: your writing, your videos, it had an impact on my own academic journey and especially your insights

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: on the intersection of theology and science and your theodicy as well. And I find that your

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: approach is very nuanced. It's beautiful, beautifully written. And I've just found it

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: an incredibly rich resource. So thank you for that. Thank you for being an inspiration.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'd love for our listeners to get to know you personally, your background, your journey,

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're from originally. What got you interested in this area of theology? How'd

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: you end up in Scotland? All of those things. Yeah. So I'm Canadian. My Canadian accent

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: has now been moderated by 13 years in the UK. So it's a little mid-Atlantic now.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm from Edmonton, grew up there and became a Christian at 15, largely through horseback camps.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I really loved Jesus, or I really loved horses. And they led me to love Jesus at these horse camps.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, amazing.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, started going to church on my own, getting involved and just loved it. When I was 18,

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I decided to go to Bible college rather than university because I was thinking about

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: mission work. And I was thinking about, you know, just how to serve God well with my life.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that same time, I ended up at a church where the pastor was just really very,

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say, manipulative, controlling, you know, abusive in relation to power.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And that started opening up these questions of theodicy. I was kind of like, God, here's this

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: man speaking in your name, and you don't seem to be doing anything about it. If you need to know

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: where to direct the lighting bolt, it's there. Where are you? And how do you let this go on?

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that really sparked the whole question of sort of why does God allow bad things to happen

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to good people or just allow atrocities to happen, even in God's name? And as I was finishing my

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: undergraduate and deciding to at least try on an academic career, I realized that there wasn't

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: much theological room left in the area of the problem of evil. You know, it's been done so

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: many times by so many people. And just at that point, I met a guy named Dennis Lamoureux, who

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is a professor of science and religion at the University of Alberta. And he convinced me to

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: move into science and religion. He had this book called Evolutionary Creation, which at the time,

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, nothing is more boring than science and religion. I don't know, it's two scientists

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: yelling at each other, God created, I don't really care. But what his book unfolded to me is that this

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is a fascinating question when it comes to understanding the Bible and how it's written,

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and beginning to understand how Genesis is nested in this ancient Near Eastern context. And you start

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: reading it like that, and the Bible just comes alive. So I got into science and religion, not

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: actually out of a deep passion for science for wanting to relate them, but because I found it so

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: useful for reading the Bible well. So then I sort of decided, okay, I'm going to try science and

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: religion. I have this interest in sort of theodicy and why they're suffering. And so I decided to

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: combine the two into this question of sort of animal suffering before the fall. So before humans

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: were around polluting the earth, or, you know, keeping animals in cages, there was still a whole

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of suffering. You have dinosaurs with bone cancer, you have predation for 350 million years,

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you have parasites and viruses, and all the forms of natural suffering that we see today

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: were around long before humans were. And so suddenly, you have this whole new question

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of suffering that doesn't necessarily pin to Adam and Eve falling and destroying everything.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do we explain that? And that took me into my master's and PhD.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: CB What a journey. And is it true that you spent some time at the kilns?

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: KS Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: CB Okay, I think I remember you saying that in the lecture.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: KS This is actually a funny story. I moved up to Oxford within about two weeks

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: needing, you know, I got a job and then had to start sort of two weeks later. So I moved very

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: quickly, took the first thing that was available, and wasn't particularly happy in the house share

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I was in. So at the end of the year, I was going, I really need a new place to live. And I was

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to my spiritual director. And she was like, you know, I just have this feeling that God's going

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to drop something into your lap. And I was like, even God's not that good. Like this is Oxford,

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like there is no accommodation at all. Yeah. And she just sort of said, Well, I guess we'll see.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So six days later, I get an email in my inbox from the vice president of the Foundation,

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Steve Elmore, then now the president saying, we've heard through the grapevine that you would be a

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: great person to come take care of the kilns if you would like. We are in need of a warden and

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: we'd love to meet with you and see if you'd like to live there. So for two years, I was the warden,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I was the bookkeeper for a year and then a resident, but four very happy years living

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: in the kilns, which is C.S. Lewis's house, I should say. I don't know if all your-

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's important.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, sorry. So C.S. Lewis lived there from 1930 until 1963 when he died. So over half his life,

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it's where he wrote pretty much all the books that you'd be familiar with. It was amazing.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh. Now what year was that?

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That I lived there?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So 2015 till 2019.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. So yeah, that was shortly after I left. Yeah, my friend, Ryan Pemberton, he lived there.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever met him?

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. I don't know.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he lived there at 2010 to 2012, the same year as I was there. So he'd invite me over

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: occasionally for some tea. It's such an incredible place.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I told you that for two years, I worked with Alistair McGrath as his postdoc. And so one of

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the things we would do is once a year gather all the science and religion students there and have

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a big dinner. So we had Alistair and the science and religion students. We'd just have a lovely

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: dinner together and talk about theology and being an academic and we had some amazing nights.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So your background, you're a lecturer at Hogwarts and you were a warden at the

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: kilns. It doesn't get much better, ladies and gentlemen. So okay, your book, let's talk about

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it. It's so good and it's so unique. And what I love about it is you take these lofty theological

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: concepts and you make them very palatable, very easy to understand. And the book's called Why Is

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Our Suffering? Pick Your Own Theological Expedition. And it is structured. I've never

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: seen a theological book like this, but it's structured as a choose your own adventure story,

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: which I know I'm dating myself here, but those were some of my favorite books growing up.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I still have one somewhere called Journey Under the Sea and it's like this role

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: of a deep sea explorer and goes on this daring mission to find this lost city of Atlantis. Have

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you ever read these? You know, that gives you options.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I've read all of them.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it gives you options. Okay, turn to page 20 if you want to do this or that. So you took

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that style and you apply it to theodicy. And for those listening, theodicy is simply the study of

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: the articulation of the problem of evil and suffering in the world. Why does God allow

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: painful things to happen? You craft your book like a journey and use this language of expedition

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: journey through the whole thing. It's almost like Pilgrim's Progress or something. And you then are

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: given these options of, okay, if you believe in God, turn here. If you don't, turn here. If you

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: think this is about God, turn here. And you're navigating readers through various theological

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: perspectives and arguments related to suffering. So first of all, what inspired you to structure

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it that way?

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So it was inspired through a couple of things. One, as you mentioned, I did a PhD on

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: theodicy about the problem of suffering and realized that I absolutely hated nearly all

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: literature that was out there because it did either take horrific examples of suffering,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the worst example from a concentration camp and then say, well, if A and A prime, then B and C.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, how can you do that? And then-

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I literally have a book that's like that here. It's really like mathematics.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And you have all these equations. It's like, what?

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I'd come in there with this existential angst, this heart felt just deep desire to know

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: God better and I'm hitting this logical mathematics and I was like, this isn't helping.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the second thing was that a lot of it just loves the 25 cent words. So everything is like

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the inscrutability argument or the apathetic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: who talks like that? And then the third thing that I found really difficult was that

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: every one of those books started by saying, this should not be given to anyone who's suffering.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the wrong thing to give to anyone who is having-

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This has no application for real world examples.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, why would you write a book on suffering that's not actually meant to help

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: anybody who is suffering? You're just playing a game with atheists then if that's the case.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You're trying to prove this logical point and I just had no interest in that game. So I sort of

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: thought if we were going to change this sort of dispassionate theodicy into a compassionate

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: theodicy into something we could give to someone who's suffering, to involve anybody who wanted to

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in this conversation without having them slog through a PhD, what would that look like?

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I started looking at popular accounts, something like Philip Yancey, Where's God

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: When It Hurts, other things like that. And what I found is that again, many of them

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: would just sort of say, this is the way you should think about it.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I was reading psychology literature about how people with trauma work through their

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: suffering, the opposite was true. They didn't need one path. They needed to be able to create

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: their own path. They needed to feel like they had agency and they needed to make meaning out

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of their situation and imposing meaning on them usually didn't work. Like, you know, the kind

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: hearted person who like comes up to you when you've experienced something terrible, they're like,

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, don't worry, God has a plan for this. You know, this will be for your good eventually,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and you're like, I just, you know, some people will come to that place. And that's a

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: brilliant realization where they have this moment of God is in control. God meant this all along.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And for some people, that's really what takes them through. But to have somebody else tell

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: them that this is how you have to interpret it is just bad pastoral practice. So I think I was

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sitting in the kilns at the time, trying to think about how could I make it simple, make it non

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: emotionally volatile, like not be all the horrific suffering of people in wartime conditions, etc.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, horrific acts of cruelty. And then how do I allow people to make their own meanings

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm not trying to persuade them of what I think is right, but help them see the sort of

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: possibilities. And I just had this moment of thinking like, oh, my goodness, books with agency,

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what choose your own adventure was. And so that started this whole wild process of trying to

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: turn that into a book.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: ACW I think the brilliance of that too, is because essentially that notion of agency,

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and the freedom to choose constitutes a big part of your own theodicy, and the agency of creation,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: which we'll get to in a sec. But I think before we get to that, I mean, let's just talk about the

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: problem of evil as a whole. I mean, one of the things that's striking is that, and I think one

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: of the reasons your book really strikes a chord with people, is that this is an age-old question.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's been around for millennia. You can go back to Epicurus who asked the question,

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: is God willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he's impotent? Is he able,

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but not willing, then he's malevolent? Is he both able and willing, whence then evil?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Or J.L. Mackie, he put it in way simpler terms. He's like, either there is no God,

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: or he's not all powerful, or he's not all good. So this is the problem that's before us. Yes,

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: as you mentioned, it's philosophical, it's theological, but it's immensely personal.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is striking too, and you mentioned this in some of your writing.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a problem that isn't just in the Christian space with theologians,

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: or even Christians who go through hard times. It's a problem that humanity wrestles with.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And every ideological system engages with theodicy in some way. Hinduism, it's suffering

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: as karma. Or Buddhism, it's a way, a means to an end where you can obtain enlightenment. Or even

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: animism can be due to a moral failure or not doing enough to appease the gods. New Age teaches that

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: suffering is part of just the process of higher consciousness. Even atheism,

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is one of the things you point out. I think Richard Dawkins was a part of this,

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'd love to hear that too, your conversation with him. But even in atheism, it posits a

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: theodicy of sorts, right? Well, it's just how the universe works. We live, we die, that's it,

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: there's no hope. So this is a human problem, whether one is Christian or not. This is something

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that we all wrestle with. Yeah, absolutely. And so my book doesn't only include Christian

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: elements, it moves into some sorts of what you might call sort of New Age spirituality and

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: atheism. And you're right, Richard Dawkins very kindly read a portion of the book because

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to make sure that when I was representing a view that wasn't my own,

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that I wasn't setting up a straw man, that I wasn't putting up a weaker argument than they

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: would themselves. And so every time I wrote a part that was for a view that I don't hold,

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I had somebody from that camp, from that position, the best person I could find really,

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and who'd be willing to read it over and give me feedback on whether they thought

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I had done a good job. And so I'd gotten to know Richard Dawkins actually through my involvement

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with New College Chapel, the chaplain of his college put us in touch and he very kindly

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: allowed us, read the book and said, there's more that could be said, but I think you've

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: accurately depicted the sort of thing I would say. So yeah, really grateful to him for that.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You did that and it's such a beautiful example of the pursuit of truth. Because I mean, we're

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing this play out in real time right now, just the American political situation where

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so often we construct straw men and then deconstruct that. But the opposite of that

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: would be a steel man argument where you take the strongest possible version of your opponent's

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: argument and then let's speak into that. So the fact that you brought in Richard Dawkins,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: okay, share with me your perspective or what do you think of this? I'm curious. I met him a couple

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: times when I lived in Oxford. But where do you think he's at right now in his theological journey?

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea. I mean, I had lunch with him once maybe five years ago and only very brief

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: interactions and I don't follow him on social media or anything. So I really,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you see a few quotations in the popular press, but I think that's very hard.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he did make the news recently about considering himself a cultural Christian,

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: which unleashed a flurry of interesting conversation. But that's fantastic that you

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: brought him into the conversation. You wanted to know, okay, what is an atheistic worldview

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to this? But this is a question that transcends ideology. And you're right. I mean,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there is no more difficult question. And here's the thing with those who study theodicy,

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you're wrestling with something that is kind of in a sense unanswerable. I think philosophers who

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: are working on the problem of evil in some sense, it's like that myth of Sisyphus pushing up a rock,

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: only in this case, the rock is made of unresolved paradoxes and we're not even sure where the top

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of the hill is. So I think of all the issues though that haunt our faith, this question is

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: actually the most disturbing. And I think your approach here, I'm wanting to make it personal.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: The things you went through in your own faith journey and some of the injustices that you

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: were witnessing, that church causing you to wrestle with those things. And then you're right, so many

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: of these books on theodicy so often are in the intellectual space, but they're not very helpful

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to hand to someone who just lost a loved one. I was in Uganda a few years ago, our ministry

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: helped support the safe house where young women are able to go and find refuge from abuse and

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: hearing some of their stories, your heart's like, God, why? Why would you allow this? Or you look

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: at what's happening currently, like why would God allow entire cities to be devastated by war? Why

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: violence and tragedy and genocide and ethnic cleansing? Why natural disasters that wipe out

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: entire communities? Why leukemia, cancer, heart disease? Like why doesn't God stop human trafficking?

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is there so much injustice and inequality? If God is all powerful and all loving,

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: why doesn't he stop it? Why doesn't he intervene? Nicholas Waltersdorf, he said,

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: my wound is an unanswered question. The wounds of humanity are unanswered questions. So how do we go

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about trying to answer ultimately an unanswerable question? Yeah. So I think it Christopher Southgate

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who you know, at the University of Exeter, sort of says any theodicy worth its salt

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: arises out of protest and ends in mystery. And I think it's such a great phrase, because I think

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that we will always end in mystery, and we'll either end in resting in faith in God, or we

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: will be turning away from God. But there's a whole lot of work to do before that point.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? So I mean, I often look at medicine as a great example where, you know, if people just said,

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: ah, people have great pains in their stomach, and it's a great mystery. And we can do nothing except

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sit in the mystery of that. We wouldn't have any modern medicine. And modern medicine does a great

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: deal of good for people. So even though ultimately, we will say, the human body and the mysteries of

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: life are mysteries, there's a lot of good we can do before we necessarily get there. And I think

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the same with our views of God that there are a lot of things that we could look at and say,

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, why do we have, you know, pain? Wouldn't the world be better if we just didn't have pain?

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you start looking at it more closely, you realize, okay, there actually are people who are

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: born without the ability to feel pain. Are their lives particularly blessed? Do they live as super

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: men and super women amongst us? Absolutely not. They usually die very young, because the pain

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: systems teach us how to protect our vulnerable bodies. So if we, you know, break our foot,

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: we know not to step on it because of pain. If we rest our hand on the hot stove, we pull it away

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because of pain. These people without the ability to feel pain, don't do either of those things.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll notice that there's a smell and that's how they'll realize that their hand is burning.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Or they will walk on broken feet, they will run their head into the wall over and over again,

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: just because it's kind of fun. And so they often destroy their own bodies. And so we can see that

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: our desire to live without pain, if that were actually granted, at least in this life, at least

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in this world, we're setting aside whatever physics God will make in the new creation,

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: which remains mystery. But in this creation, pain is a great gift. And I think there's a lovely book

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: by Paul Brand and Philip Yancey called The Gift of Pain, you know, the gift no one wants.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And Paul Brand, it was a leprosy doctor in India, so of what's now known as Hansen's disease.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was the one who really realized that this isn't a flesh eating bacteria at all.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: All it does is invade the pain nerve cells and kill them. And all the subsequent damage came

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: from people burning themselves, hurting themselves, not noticing. In one clinic,

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a problem with rats coming while people were sleeping and eating their fingers.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But because they didn't have pain to protect them, they didn't wake up, you know, so that it's a very

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: simple example of sort of how things that we might think initially like, oh, that's terrible,

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is actually a great good. And if we think of sort of emotional suffering,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that does in the social realm, what our pain systems do in the physical realm, right? So

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're in a relationship, and there's a whole lot of emotional pain going on, you go, okay,

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, something's wrong. Something needs to be worked on in this relationship. Whereas if you didn't

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: know that, then if you couldn't feel that, then you wouldn't realize that there's something that

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: needs to be changed. So from one perspective, it's not to say there can't be things like

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: torture, and, you know, excessive pain because of the cruelty of other people.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But the basic ability to feel pain, I think is a very great good gift.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That's an incredible insight. And one that Lewis actually echoes when he said that God whispers to

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: us in our pleasure, he speaks in our consciousness, but shouts in our pain, he calls it a megaphone

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to rouse a deaf world. And so there is that there's something about it that is

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: redemptive in that regard. As you begin to dig into various explanations for it, I count in your

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: book, maybe 40 different options or so. So if you were to take all these different options or

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: explanations, theodicies of why then God is getting our attention in this and what is the purpose,

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: why he allows it, how would you take all these notions? And what are the major categories

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of trying to explain and understand the problem of evil?

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So within the Christian series, sort of the Christian options, I think I would sort of think

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that there's maybe four or five main camps. So the first would be the one we've talked about,

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: mystery. You know, we just we can't tell, we just have to sit back and sit in faith.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: A second one would be the God has a plan. So that's what you said in terms of Lewis saying

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: God's trying to get our attention through the pain and that it will ultimately work out in the end.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And this has all happened for a very good reason that we may not understand now, but it will

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually become evident. A sort of subset of that sort of God has a plan would be the idea

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that there is something that is called out in the human spirit, sort of this idea of we are refined,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: our soul is made perfect through suffering, right? So without suffering, you know, it's like going to

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the gym, it really hurts, but it's what ultimately makes us stronger. And so the idea that God's plan

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: for suffering is that it gives us the opportunity, if not, you know, we can choose to respond to God's

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: call or not in ways that are good or bad. So I think two major groups, it's all a mystery,

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we won't ever be able to explain it, we shouldn't try. God has a plan, and it's either A, going to

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: work together or B, it's to make us stronger in some way. A third option would be to say that

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: there's actually just deep freedom in the world. And so God has given so much agency to other

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: creatures, to people and animals. And even in its own way to the wind and waves say that sometimes

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: accidents happen, sometimes things happen that God doesn't want. Right? So rather than saying,

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, you know, that war started because God has a plan to ultimately make it a good,

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: this view would just kind of say, no, it's terrible. God hates war, God doesn't want this

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to happen. These atrocities are deeply against God's will. And they occur because God has given

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: freedom to people, real deep moral freedom. And they sometimes use that in really horrific ways.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in that way, you end up into what's called open theism. And some versions of it might be

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: called process theism, where you're actually saying God has left the future open. So even

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: God doesn't know what the future will would look like. And then a fourth way to think about it

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is what I would call a sort of Thomistic response. So this is coming through Herbert McCabe and

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Eleanor Stump and others. And it's the idea that evil is to serve our existence, the same way

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: darkness is to light. So light is a thing, right? You've got photons, there's energy there.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Darkness is just a lack of light. If I make my hand into a little cave, I haven't sort of lit

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a darkness fire inside of there, I've just blocked out the light, and yet it's very dark.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in that view, everything that God has made is good. And evil emerges when we sort of block

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: out the light in various ways. We can do that through bad timing, through bad judgment,

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: but always what you'll have is a conflict of goods. So you might see something like I think

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the example I use in the book is sort of, you have a good pizza and you're very good chilies.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you combine too many good chilies with a good pizza, you've now made something

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: catastrophic, right? We've all done that challenge at that restaurant and

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: lived to regret it. But there's no evil there, there's just a bad combination.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so with people, when it comes to people and the evil that they do,

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: they have what are ultimately meant to be good desires, say, desires for sex or desires for food

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: or desires for rest. But when those get taken at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons,

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: then you end up in sin, then you end up in some distortion of the good due to

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: us sort of using our agency to block out the good.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the key things that you bring out in the book is, yeah, that sense of mystery,

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: there are some unanswerable questions, but the reality of God's presence with us

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: in the midst of our suffering, because it's not like God is intentionally wanting people to suffer.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And even though our choices many times, they create some kind of distance between us and God,

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: what you see in Scripture is a God who pursues, even though they're kicked out of Eden,

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He still chases them down, even when they were in the desert, He was with them for 40 years,

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: when they were surrounded by enemies and trembling with fear, He was with them,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: He comforted them when they're on the mountain and weeping in the temple, He cried with them.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: As He ministered, He wept at the tomb. So what you find in Scripture is a God who's unrelenting,

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: unyielding, ever present, ever faithful. And that's why you see verses like,

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Fear not for I have redeemed you, I've summoned you by name, you're mine. When you go through

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the waters, I'll be with you. When you pass through the rivers, they won't sweep over you.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think in Jesus, then, we meet a God who suffers. We meet a God who doesn't just acknowledge our

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: pain, but enters into it Himself, who in a sense initiated the defeat of suffering by suffering

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Himself, who experienced what it was to be betrayed and rejected and was beaten, mocked,

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: spat upon, nailed to a cross. So this is an atheistic God who's aloof and uncaring, but

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: a God who shares our brokenness. And I find that this is such a comfort for those who are going

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: through it because so often, when we walk with people through seasons of pain and suffering,

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: they're not necessarily even looking for the answer. That may come later. They may not even

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: be wondering the why, they just need God's presence in the midst of the suffering.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: LSG Absolutely. Yeah. And so, the vision of Christ crucified is a theme that comes up

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly in medieval devotion, which when we read in our day often seems a little frightening,

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: a little scary, because you have such an intense devotion to the crucified Christ. I'm thinking of

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: John of the Cross or I'm thinking of Julian of Norwich, these people who are like,

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: let me be united to you in your suffering. And we would rather not that. We would be like,

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: give me the pills that get rid of the suffering. Let's just fix the suffering so we don't have to

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: go through it. But suffering is this inescapable heart in Christianity, but it doesn't end with the

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: suffering. So, it sits in the suffering, it sits in the tomb, but it's also met by the resurrection

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and sort of holding space for both of those is difficult because some people just want to be like,

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I've been at churches where on Good Friday, they're like, the resurrection! Woo! And

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, isn't it too early for that? And then you have some other churches where you have six

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: hours on Good Friday and Easter morning is like, woo! Okay, moving on. And you're like, whoa,

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: whoa, whoa. And I think we're called to sort of sit in that dynamic tension where in the suffering,

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: we remember this too shall pass, we will be met with resurrection, but in the resurrection,

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: there are still the nail marks. There's still the marks of the suffering that we've gone through,

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not a cheap grace. It's not a cheap redemption.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Paul That is such a powerful point. It reminds me

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: of one of my favorite quotes on that by Henry Blocker who said that we have no other position

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: than at the foot of the cross that God's answer is evil turned back upon itself,

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: conquered by the ultimate degree of love in the fulfillment of justice. And you're right,

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it is a both and. There's the lament and the horror of what evil does. That's the cross.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is also the unremitting longing and hope for redemption. And I think this has to be

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: a part of any kind of theodicy or any kind of hope giving to those who are going through pain and

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: suffering. This isn't how the story ends. KS. Sorry, any kind of Christian life has to be

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: motivated by that because if you're going to walk into the world and meet the kind of suffering that

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we see literally on our streets every day, and you don't have the hope of the resurrection,

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to be destroyed by that. But if all you have is the cross and you have no...

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, but if all you have is a message of resurrection, then you're not going to be willing

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to encounter the suffering really. You'll just be putting a bandaid on it all the time. And so,

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: when we love difficult people, when we sit in ministries that seem fruitless year after year,

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: when we care for the poor, when we visit the sick in hospital or those in jail,

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we need both of those with us. It's deeply practical.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: PBR. How would you envision new heavens and new earth? How does this idea of eschatological hope,

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: how do you build upon it in your own personal theodicy? I know in one of your books,

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe the first one, but you mentioned the idea of a fractural mosaic. I'd love you to share a

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: little bit about that. I find this such a beautiful, compelling idea.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: DR. So, the fractal mosaic is something I stole from Eleanor Stump's brilliant book,

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Wandering in Darkness. It's a big book, 500 pages or so, but really, really good read,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: very beautifully written, really engaging. So, if you're into long books, it's good. But

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: the idea is that we can look at pictures of our lives through various levels of meaning.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So, the fractal mosaic is the idea of if you have a picture, it has composition, it has a meaning,

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe it's of somebody you love, but you can place it alongside other pictures in such a way that a

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: new picture emerges. I know some people get wall hangings where there's 200 pictures of their

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: family, but it makes a bigger meta-level picture of their parents or something like that.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, the idea is that every part of that bigger picture is made up of the smaller picture.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you can imagine that you zoom in and every part of that smaller picture is made up

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of thousands of its own pictures, right? And so, you begin to have this idea that meaning

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is something that we create out of the events of our lives. It's not like something happens

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's automatically evident what it means. So, there's a famous story of the Taoist farmer

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: who has a son and they have one single horse and they're very poor farmers.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: One day, their horse runs away, right? And all the villagers goes, oh my goodness,

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the worst thing that could happen. How will you live? And the farmer goes, well,

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's too early to tell what this means. And they all laugh at him. Oh, isn't he silly?

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Few days later, that horse comes back with a whole herd of wild horses. And so, all the villagers

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: are like, oh my goodness, you were right. Your horse running away was the best thing. Now,

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you're rich. What are you going to do? And then the farmer goes, well, I think it's too early to

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: tell. And so, then his son is trying to tame the wild horses and one of them really badly breaks

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: his leg. And so, the son is never going to be able to walk normally again. Everyone goes,

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you're right. This is the worst thing that could have happened, right? And the farmer goes,

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like we can't. And so, and then their country goes to war and all the other young men are

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: recruited into the army, but the son who is lame can't go. So, they're, oh, you're right. It was a,

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, so they're constantly wanting to say like the final meaning we can tell right when

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: it happens. And I just don't think that's right. You know, and I think that idea that God is

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: constantly turning the events of our lives into new meanings is such a rich place for God to be

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: at work in the world, that he's constantly piecing together our lives with the lives of others in

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: such a way that the overall picture is one of redemption.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Paul That's unbelievably beautiful because, and it makes sense of

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what Paul said that right now we see through a glass dimly and someday face to face and

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: just how fractional mosaic, it's, you know, emphasizes the individual fragmented pieces,

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but then when you step back, it's a coherent, meaningful whole. And I think we look at our life

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: right now, and if you're going through a hard time, if you're struggling, if you're wrestling

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: with something, you can look at the pain and the anguish of it. You're like, this makes no sense.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't get it. But what if eternity in a sense is the step back and we see, oh, this is what God had

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: in mind the whole time. This is how he's creating beauty out of this pain and brokenness. I think

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that eternity will be something like that. The grand unveiling. I've heard similar metaphors of a

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: tapestry where one side you have tangled threads, but on the other side, you have a beautiful

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: picture. What would you personally say to someone who's listening to this right now?

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe they're going through something, a breakup, heartache, mental, emotional pain. Maybe

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: they're struggling with unemployment. Something's happening in their life right now.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: What words of comfort and advice would you give them?

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say just be gentle with yourself. Just be gentle, take care of yourself.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I hesitate to give advice because I think that that person actually knows the meaning of their

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: pain far better than I do. And they will know what options are available to them. So again,

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01]: one person might think, God has a plan and that's really helpful. But somebody else might find

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a sort of opposite theology of saying, God didn't want this to happen. This is not God's plan

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to be really useful. And so I think I would say, be honest with God and be willing to find a

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: different God than you've been taught in and through this. I think we're often sort of told,

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: this is what God's like, and this is how God is acting. And I think that those moments of

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: suffering are places where we have a chance to be surprised in a new way by the compassion,

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: by the grace of God. But I think, especially if it's a really recent pain, it might be absolutely

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the wrong time to try and figure out any of this. And that's where things like liturgy and

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: written prayers can be really helpful because they're a habit we form that carry us through,

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: even on days we don't really believe in God. And those happen. For days we're so angry at God,

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't want to talk to God at all. Okay, well, I can still follow the Book of Common Prayer or

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever it is. So just be gentle. Just be gentle.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: J.B. That's such a practical way to engage with heartache is, you're part of a larger story. And

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: this is something that every single human encounters at some point. And something as

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: simple as reading those prayers, reading scripture, it's like you're orienting yourself with a larger

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: story. And in a sense helps you see the mosaic, helps you see, oh, okay, I am not alone. I think

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that is such a key thing to remember in all this, that in our heartache and pain, He is the shepherd

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that's walking with us. And not only that, but we have others who have gone through this journey as

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: well. And others who've written from their own life and engaged with it in intellectual,

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: philosophical and beautiful ways like yourself. And so your resource, I think, is such a beautiful,

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: compelling read. And for any listening who are just trying to make sense of the struggle they're in

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: right now, I'd highly recommend pick up this book. Because I think at bare minimum, it's going to

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: point you in some directions where you can take this further and give you some ways of looking

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: at it that maybe you haven't in the past. And I think that's when it comes to this problem of

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: evil, there is no one set answer. It's something that you're actually pointing out in your book

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that we have to tackle it from a number of different ways, right? In a sense, it's a compound

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: theodicy. And somewhere in that process, I think we find hope. So thank you.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I do want to just highlight that I wrote this with the hope that it would be useful to someone

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: who's suffering, but I don't know that it actually works. So if you do pick it up and you read a

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: couple pages, you think, oh, this is not the right thing. Don't worry about that, lay it aside.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are lots of different resources. And this is one attempt to do something really

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: different. But it really was just a try.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's an amazing try. And I absolutely love it. So we're gonna we'll put

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the link for it in our show notes. And I sure enjoyed this conversation with you, Bethany.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Delighted to meet you. And if people want to follow your work, what you're up to next,

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: is there anywhere you could point us to?

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I have a very poorly updated Facebook page. You know, the best thing that they can really do

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: is if you can spell my last name, you can find basically everything I've done because I'm the

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: only Bethany Solaredder in the world. So if you can, if you can figure out how to spell that

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: beast of a name, you will be able to find through YouTube and and Google Scholar and all that

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: my work, that's probably the best way.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much.