The Church Planter | S2 E3

[00:00:12] You're listening to the Marriage and Ministry podcast. The podcast where you equip marriages and those administering together. Well, welcome to season two episode three. Yes. Exciting stuff. I'm excited about this episode. Do you know why I'm excited? Yeah, I do. Okay. Well, you don't sound as excited, Jen.

[00:00:38] Well, because I already know the numbers and they lie. Okay. So what we're referring to here is the huge debate. It was all over Twitter. It was all over Instagram. It was on the New York Times latest.

[00:00:53] Lies, Colin. It was on SNL the other night. The lies call them really. Okay. Well, we've debated who is on their phone more as far as screen time. We have actual scientific data to back this up. Not conjuring up some excuse like...

[00:01:10] It's not an excuse. It was legitimate. It was a real... So is this one? This sounds like us in a fight. I'll say that's not an excuse. It's a reason. This is a reason. This is a reason not to do this experiment. Experiment.

[00:01:29] Okay, because you're going to come out really like a bad. At this particular time, we always choose the worst times to do this. Oh, so it's timing. Yeah, the timing is not fair. Okay. So how so? Well, because we're looking at our screen time. Right? Screen time.

[00:01:45] Yeah, screen time on the phone. I almost choked. I would too. If I was not. I would. Oh, it's too safe. But last week we were gone all week. I was gone all week. Yeah. Which Western seminary cohort and we went out to... Is it Nevada or Nevada?

[00:02:03] It's both. But if you live there, it's Nevada. I went out to Las Vegas. Right. No, I think it's Nevada. I say Nevada and they're like, oh, you mean Nevada? And I was like, whoa, that's like Colorado. That's an accent there now, huh? Yeah, it's Nevada. No.

[00:02:18] I'm telling you. Please don't say like that. Okay. Well, I was out in Las Vegas with the Western seminary cohort. I mean, you can say Nevada, but don't say Nevada. I mean, don't say that. I can't say that.

[00:02:28] I can't not say it. Once I'm Nevada, it's just there. Okay. Anyway, you were gone all last week. True. Which left me with a more time to myself than usual. So I was on my phone a lot more.

[00:02:42] Okay. You weren't you on the Western seminary just like I was? Yes, but I'm saying I was in the evening time. I was alone. You weren't there seeing you talk with, you know, interact with all that kind of stuff.

[00:02:56] But I was traveling using Uber, using the American Airlines app. I'm checking in with my phone. You didn't. I was looking for a book on my phone. All right, then anyway, let's get to it. Yeah, but you were with people the whole time.

[00:03:07] I was at home by myself. The majority of the night. That's in the bottom. I was in. Yes, I was doing that. But I also talked to people. I texted more frequently than I normally would. I'm sure listeners can hear the excitement in my voice because I have

[00:03:25] a feeling of what's coming. So all right. So let's do this without further ado. My screen time has a daily average of four hours. And it's a four hours in 19 minutes, which is up 10% from last week.

[00:03:37] So that means last week, it was 10% less than that because I was traveling. I want to know. Okay, what about you? Four hours, 19 minutes. And roll. My sign is six hours and 12 minutes. Oh, and is that up or down from last week? That is down actually.

[00:03:57] Down how much? Yeah, 27%. Oh, okay. Well, I'm not a mathematician, but that still means that you are in your phone. It's my point though. It does a little bit. All right. It does a little bit. Well, nonetheless, we are trying to be better.

[00:04:12] We did a podcast episode last season about the dangers and the problems, the pitfalls of technology and that great book, 12 reasons or 12 ways your phone is changing you by 20. Really good. But that's not what we're talking about today. We have settled the debate.

[00:04:31] I have officially won the debate now. I'm fairly. So now, but okay, congratulations. Thank you so much. I'm glad. Should I get a fist bump? This bump? I five, a COVID-5. No, that's a side bug. No, COVID was over. COVID codes over. We're not talking about that anymore.

[00:04:47] We're done, 2021. So I could be a hug. Ooh, bonus. I got to win more often. So yeah, so this season we're talking about the different roles in ministry. And this is a big one.

[00:05:01] We want to kind of talk through each of the different roles that people may have in pastoral ministry and today we're going to talk about church planting. This is a big topic. So when we talk about church planning, we're talking about things that are way different

[00:05:15] than just pasturn. And we don't mean that there's a problem with just pasturn, even putting that clarifying word just. What we're saying though is you might be a lead pastor of a church, you may be an associate pastor.

[00:05:29] But there's a very unique and special type of gifting and calling and kind of skill set that's required to be a church planter. And it's a little bit different than maybe a pastor of an established church, a pastor of a legacy church that's been around for decades.

[00:05:49] Or a pastor of a smaller rural church. When you're going into plant a church, that's just totally different beast. Total new set of problems and challenges even in marriage. So we're going to tackle that topic as much as we can in the short time that we have.

[00:06:04] What it means to plant churches. So yeah, I think church planning is very near a deer to our hearts. Not only do we have a passion to send people out, right? But we've also started to churches.

[00:06:17] So I think we have a passion for church planting to see the gospel, you know, being spread as much as it can into different areas and regions of the world. Yes, absolutely. So our story real quick is that we were on staff.

[00:06:36] I was on staff at a church as the youth pastor Jen was for a good season of that. You're on staff as the office manager. And we loved the youth ministry. We didn't see it as a stepping stone. Well, we'll get into youth ministry probably next week's podcast.

[00:06:53] But yeah, we loved it and then suddenly just started getting a burden and an urgency and just an eagerness to follow Christ and to step out into an urban center and plant a church. So we did that in 2010.

[00:07:09] And basically it was an urban, very young, very populous city of Tampa. And we moved up there with me working by vocationally with young children with no outside support and really only with your mom coming with us and one other guy.

[00:07:28] We had four people max when we first started. And yeah, really no experience and not a lot of help. And then on our second church plant we planted an suburb in area in our hometown, a town when you very well,

[00:07:42] a town with a variety of ages with lots of support or we should say more support. And then with the intention of being by vocational both of us for a short season, the beginning two years. But then with the intention of me being full time within two years.

[00:07:56] And that didn't happen with you. Yeah. And so we kind of like to say it's a tale of two churches one, we weren't supported.

[00:08:03] It was young and difficult in urban the second we were more supported and it was suburb and a variety of ages and grew very quickly. Yeah. So that was kind of our experience. Yeah, both were great and unique and in of it I've been selves.

[00:08:19] Yeah, it was awesome. And this is what we'd like to say to church planners, you're following God faithfully to plant the gospel. And he'll be the one who's faithful to allow a church to be established.

[00:08:31] And because, you know, he said, this is my church that I will build my church upon the confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ. And the gates of hell won't prevail against my church.

[00:08:43] So, you know, whether or not an established local church outlast you or outlives you is not really, that's not really a gauge of your success. Have you gone into a place and planted the gospel? And is it bearing fruit? And did you make an impact in the kingdom?

[00:09:00] That's the more important thing. So talk to a lot of guys that struggle because I don't know if you do this stuff. They say that I want to say it's like 90% of church plants close within the first year. Wow.

[00:09:11] I mean, a lot of people are attempting to plant churches in their family. What was the percentage? It's like 90%. I mean, 20% of stats are made up. So there is that. But see, I think what's happening is you're not supported because it's so difficult.

[00:09:29] You're not maybe raised up and qualified. We've talked about that two episodes ago. And so you just go, oh, I've got a burden to start a church but you're not really qualified. You know, you're not really equipped.

[00:09:41] And so you go and do it and people right out of the gate are like, this doesn't happen. Right. There's an idea in your mind. Right. When you think about, oh, we're going to step out in faith and start a church.

[00:09:52] There's there's an idea that you have in your mind. Right. A way that you think it's going to go. Yeah. And then you actually do it and you're like, this is nothing like I thought it would go.

[00:10:02] So not I would venture to say like not supported that term supported, not just monetarily, but also with people. And then not prepared, right? Which would be equipped. So no one's prepared you what this is actually going to look like, boots on the ground. Yeah.

[00:10:21] And so you just kind of go into it, right? And you're like, yeah, you know, for the cost of all. Right. And you mean, yeah, you move into the city. You don't know anyone. You have no idea where you're going to start meeting.

[00:10:32] No idea where you're going to live or you're going to work. Nothing. But for Jesus, right? Yeah. And then like it doesn't take very long after that stuff of faith that you realize, oh, wow, this is okay, this is a lot harder.

[00:10:46] Then we thought it was going to be then we're prepared for and then what we envisioned was going to happen. Yes. The reality was totally different. So and not that we're not thankful for that. And God obviously can use that.

[00:10:59] And there's a lot of you know growing to be done in that. Yeah. And so what you just described is what people call the Paris shoe plan, which literally sounds like what it is. You jump out of a plane, maybe not literally.

[00:11:11] But you know, if you were to parachute into a city, you came down from the plane and just landed. Mm-hmm. So you didn't know anyone there. There's very limited resources in your a lot of church plants fail that way.

[00:11:22] If they don't have like denominational support or other pastors, other churches, you know, coming alongside them. Mm-hmm. There's other ways of planting. Especially in urban church. Yeah.

[00:11:31] So I honestly think and I make the case that an urban church, if that's the method, the the the the parachute plant needs 10 years. 10 years of outside support. Yeah. Like a decade. But so that's one method of doing it.

[00:11:46] Another method is what I call garden planting where you would move into a region. You really have to have trust between the established church pastor and yourself. But that's where you really be careful. But you would basically come alongside a pastor.

[00:12:01] You maybe even go on staff with him if that's his invitation. And you serve in that local body and then that body kind of gets excited and behind what you're doing.

[00:12:11] They rally around what you're doing and they basically gift you some support, some resources, and maybe even some people for a year to plan in the backyard. Do like a backyard garden, like almost in the town next door across town.

[00:12:25] And again, a lot of trust has to be maintained there. But then at a certain point, you know, you allow that church to exist and you support it and then it's its own thing. So we see that successfully done and not successfully.

[00:12:38] And then there's another way of planting which would just be go and, you know, ask for an established church to basically almost like a close where they would close in transition, where it's like a merger.

[00:12:54] And I wouldn't necessarily call that a church plant where church plants out of a merger, like the identity of one of those churches. That's not typically what you think of when you think of a church plant. Right. You know, you think of, okay, it's from the ground up.

[00:13:06] Yeah. Right nothing was here. Now there's something here. There's been no ground that's been toiled. No, it's new. Well, there is a model where you go in with a lot of like hundreds of thousands of dollars in a loan.

[00:13:22] And then you go in and it's very business oriented. The guys are very charismatic personality wise because they have to be. And they basically are very attractional. Meaning they are pulling Christians from other churches to kind of have church right out of the gate.

[00:13:37] So the very first Sunday, there's a huge loss right out of the gate. Well, I've heard it's a college church in a box sort of. Like you're, you're given a plethora of money right that you're borrowing in a sense, like a loan, like you said.

[00:13:50] But then not only are you getting the money, but you're also getting like starter starter kit. You're getting like a kid's pastor or worship pastor and then obviously the new would be the teaching pastor.

[00:14:01] So it's like kind of like church in a box if everything you need to get started into set up church. If you will. Yeah. The problem with that now some of these are successful numerically. And numerically and metrically. So they do pay those loans back typically very quickly.

[00:14:17] And they do have quick numeric growth hundreds of people at the very first service. The problem with that though is we don't see a lot of that in Scripture. We see the Holy Spirit falling on the church in Jerusalem. And there it goes from 125 to a mega church, 3,1025.

[00:14:33] But see what's different there is that every single person who came to Christ, they were added to the church. They were keeping a roster. They knew who was saved. It wasn't just like explosive growth with just people coming. There was actual like believers there.

[00:14:48] So the trouble is that gardens, there's a popular block called Gardens Don't Launch. You don't launch a garden. You don't start a garden in your backyard with all of the plants grown.

[00:14:59] And if we're talking about a church plant, we're saying that this is something planted in the ground. We see this agrarian analogy all through the testimony. And all of the people are saying, well, I planted a polyester. And God brings the growth. He's brings the increase.

[00:15:13] So the more realistic I think, biobitically faithful method is to trust the Lord, allow him to be kind of raising up. You among the people there, you're being faithful to teach God's word. It's got the DNA of a church from the very beginning.

[00:15:33] It doesn't necessarily have all the staff of a church but it has the DNA. You know, it acts 242. And then as the Lord grows it, you're able to add staff. Maybe you hire people early but I think that's more bibliophateful than just starting it right out with everything.

[00:15:49] You just don't see that in the scriptures. It's not realistic. More of a less-turn American level. Yeah, yeah. I think some of our friends overseas might see that and be like that. What is that? Yeah. Yeah. So what are the unique challenges of being a church planting family?

[00:16:05] Well, I think some of the unique challenges would be all of it. The whole thing is a challenge. The whole thing is a challenge. You don't know, gosh, you know, with us, we had children. You know, it wasn't just you and I.

[00:16:21] So I think that can look different. It could be just a husband and wife. Planting a church could be a husband and wife. Well, children could be older when they decide to plant. But for us, you know, specifically our child is a church.

[00:16:34] Our challenges were kind of like the whole gamut, honestly. It was you were on staff at a church. Now you're working, you know, we don't know where. Making, we don't know how much with, you know, no benefits, no insurance, no nothing like that.

[00:16:48] You know, and I can't work because our kids were so young still that they weren't even in school. Right. Well, our oldest was just starting kindergarten. But, you know, and then our desire was that I would be a stay-on-home-mom and raise our children until they were school age.

[00:17:06] And then even if we consider a daycare so that I could go work, you know, you're working to pay for the daycare. So it just made sense to stay at home. So we just had, we had a, just a whole gamut of challenges, you know,

[00:17:21] just how we, we were going to be provided for financially with your job and where we were going to live, we're going to be afford to live. Yeah. Where, you know, where are we going to hold church? You know, our house was, there's 700 square feet, 650 square feet, 700,

[00:17:37] something like that. You know, I guess we could have like five people over, you know? We went through like, yeah, remember the first time in IKEA and saw that really small, like a model home with it.

[00:17:48] And it was like, this is our home and everyone's walking through like, how did they do it? We're like, dude, there's tons of sugar going on over here. This is huge. So we can make this work. Yeah.

[00:17:59] So I think there's just, you know, just a lot of challenges that you're presented with. Yeah. You know, that it's going to be unique to your city too. You might have a unique challenge going overseas to plant. There could be unique. There could be language barriers.

[00:18:16] There could be, you know, big cultural, you know, differences there. We really went just about an hour from where our, our sending church was, but still even the culture. Hold it, a friend. It was, yeah. I mean, even an hour away. It was a very transient city.

[00:18:37] We had a military base nearby. So we hadn't dealt with that before. People just kind of coming and going all the time. It was in a bigger city. So we had people just coming and going for business.

[00:18:48] So there were a lot of learns just even with the city that we were living in that was new. So it was all very new. And then you're trying to plant a church in that, right? So I've talked to a lot of military wives that move a lot.

[00:19:04] And it takes about two to three years for you really to settle into that new city. That's when you're deployed again. Which is then when you're deployed, right? And so by the time, you know, they're getting settled in and stuff. It's all kind of up rooted.

[00:19:17] But the point and saying that is just even with a move. It takes time to get settled into that city and find words or grocery store. Where's your gas station? Where is the school? Where, you know, let alone starting a church. Yeah.

[00:19:32] And so it just presents a lot of different challenges. But God, you know, of course is faithful to provide. I think it's also socially little challenging. You know, if you are a multi-level marketer, then every relationship suddenly is a potential client. All of your friend list is now.

[00:19:51] They could be, they could be salespeople for my multi-level marketing. And we don't want to have that same mindset where every friendship, I've got to invite that person to church, but you can help as a church planner

[00:20:04] to realize that I'm moving into a city where I know no one. And so those were, I'm going to plant the gospel. I'm going to talk. So I think our evangelistic drive in a church planting scenario is much different than an established church.

[00:20:18] In fact, they say that most of your converts will come within the first two years of your church plan. Most of them throughout the life of the church. And you know, that could be true or it could be true if you begin to like really,

[00:20:31] you know, equip the saints to be healthy sheep because healthy sheep are going to reproduce as well. So yeah, when you're starting a church, you know, there's there's too full. Like, you know, I would be somebody who was already a believer and still invite them,

[00:20:45] you know, to come to church as well as maybe my cashier or somebody I knew that was not a believer. Or someone that I didn't know if they were or not yet because that relationship hadn't been established. But it's kind of too old.

[00:21:00] You're, you know, you're wanting to bring the gospel right to a lost in the needy world. But yet at the same time, you're building your church community because you've just lost that.

[00:21:11] So you're moving into a city where you're like, okay, we're at all my, weren't at all my church community. You know, so you're kind of building a church community. Excuse me. You know, that's going to be based on, you know, believers and not believers.

[00:21:25] Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a challenge. But I think, I think planting a church right has some very circumstance, very specific things that maybe people don't expect when they go into it. Like, you need to consider like we just said, how are you going to fund this?

[00:21:41] How are you going to take care of your own family and not just say, well, we'll go by faith. God will provide. I think we have to have faith and trust the God will provide. But every time God has provided it's through his people.

[00:21:54] Generals, Christians or generous, unbelievers who know what you're about. So we can't, it's not like money is going to fall from heaven and rain down on you. If it does, then you need to return it to the government because it obviously came from somewhere.

[00:22:06] But I think, you know, the challenges of where we, how are we going to fund this? And God is faithful in our, both of our church plants to raise up, you know, support for that. But like, how do we get a 501c3? How do we do that?

[00:22:21] How do we start taking donations? Kind of setting up the business office, so to speak. And then yeah, finding locations to negotiate, leases over and we're just fortunate. God has blessed both of our churches and those endeavors in every single location.

[00:22:36] You know, he really led us to and those were affordable and not taxing on our churches budget at all. Well, the first very first location we had when we started the church of in Tampa, the guy was a believer. Yeah.

[00:22:51] And it had been praying for years for a church to be in that space. And he gave us an incredible, you know, affordable rent to be there. And so you look at that and you just see the faithfulness in the hand of God on your life.

[00:23:08] And I remember those types of things happening all the time. And I would just write them down and sketch them on my heart and in my mind because those are the affirmations that you need to remember that you need to,

[00:23:23] you know, shift your perspective back on when you have really rough days and stuff like that. So yeah, that's good. Yeah, just those affirmations is affirming the call that God's given us to, you know, move there and to do what we're doing. Yeah.

[00:23:38] So if you could go back and it's all pre church planting pilgrim again, just one thing. What would, and I'll come up with one thing as well. Well, it would be one thing that you would go back in time.

[00:23:53] If we had a time machine to Lorian, we could go back and just say, hey guys, here's, here's one thing that we'd want to encourage us. Oh, wow. One thing to encourage you with. When you go first. Well, I would say definitely by game stop.

[00:24:14] No, no, I would. I would say slow down and trying to raise up leaders too quickly and that was a big challenge for us, especially in Tampa. Really getting burned by it's funny. I was going to say the same thing really. Yeah.

[00:24:31] Yeah. What do you got to think of something? I was a tour and that's where you were headed so I'm like, let me let him answer first. One of the challenges with a new church is that you want to see progress quickly.

[00:24:41] So you want to, you want to like celebrate what God's doing and you're burned out. I mean, we talked about this last season. We easily with no margin can get burned out. So you're really quickly wanting to raise up people to help you.

[00:24:53] And so that can maybe cause you to prematurely, especially in church plant, you're attracting everyone. Right. The good in the bad people are like, oh, new church and some people have ulterior motives. So know that people are not always out for your best interests.

[00:25:08] And so we were maybe young and you know, do I like. Oh, I will I just believe the best about everybody. Everyone's coming here because they have the same mission we do to advance the gospel. They're for us. And there for us. Yeah. There's no ill intent. Wow.

[00:25:23] And that's not necessarily the case. So. So being like preparing your heart that this is going to be the best and hardest thing that you've ever done. Mm-hmm. And maybe people climbing Everest can say the same thing.

[00:25:34] It is the hardest and the most glorious thing that you'll ever do. And if you've started a church and you're listening to this and it hasn't been hard, please. Messages. Yes. Yes. And tell us what we did wrong. Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:48] Yeah. Please let us know how we can do it. To block you. No. You won't let you listen anymore. That's all. All right. Well, that was one. What's your? Well, I definitely concur with that. And I would say to maybe take a deep breath and slow down personally.

[00:26:06] Yeah. I think we just had so much gusto that we really need to just remember like it's got a church and we can go with thousand miles an hour or we can go 500 miles an hour. God's will is still going to prevail.

[00:26:24] So I think I would have like... You know where your face is going to get melted. And either way. Either way. So I think I would just say like take a deep breath, slow down and enjoy life a little bit more.

[00:26:38] Not that we did not enjoy life but it was busy. And because there was work to be done. Right? And so that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I think to just take that mental pressure off of you like if X-Myasey doesn't get

[00:26:53] done, it's still going to be okay. Yeah. And we're both like, you know, your hard work, our on my hard work or we like to do things with excellence. You know what I mean? So it's hard for us to maybe go there as easily.

[00:27:09] But I would say, you know, and I do feel like we did that but I feel like we could have done it a little bit more. Like we don't have to be so busy about the church because God's going to build it.

[00:27:21] God's going to still do his thing. And if you just church their his people, it's his work. So would you say like, would you go back to younger Jenny and say, you really shouldn't spend so much time on your phone? Okay.

[00:27:34] But you should be present with your family. I knew that you're going to do that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right. On that note, we are going to bid you a do we will be in our next episode talking about youth ministry which was our jam.

[00:27:50] We loved it. That's so much fun. It's a blast. So we'll talk through youth ministry and some of the challenges in marriage that youth ministry can provide and one of them might surprise you.

[00:27:59] So we'll be talking about that next week as always, please give us an honest five star review if you have it yet on Apple iTunes. And then like and share this, make sure you're following our Instagram which is marriage.ministrate and we again thank you.

[00:28:15] Big thank you to the good lion. We're appreciative of our podcasting network. We hope that you guys continue to allow this podcast to be a blessing to marriages and people who are ministering together. So until next week, stay married. And in ministry. Peace.