293. The Gospel of Imagination: Creativity, Culture and Discipleship with Caleb Woodbridge

[00:00:08] Friends warm welcome to Making Disciples, it's really good to be with you today. Today's episode is going to be an interview with just a really creative and imaginative guy called Caleb Woodbridge. He is from Wales, he has worked in Christian publishing. I think it's particularly interesting because he's really interested in apologetics and culture, evangelism and creativity.

[00:00:37] He's into writing, but he's really into Doctor Who, which means he's an interesting kind of mix of creative thinking, loves Jesus, loves kind of culture, science fiction, because more than that as you'll see in the episode, you know, somebody who's very influenced by things like C.S. Lewis and Tolkien and others.

[00:01:04] So, I was quite keen to have a conversation with him because one of the big things he's passionate about is something called imaginative discipleship. And he's really interested in how to use your imagination. He's really interested in disciple making and discipleship.

[00:01:25] So, I thought it would be quite fun to spend a bit of time with him. Now, this recording goes way back into June, back in the summer. And we've been kind of holding it back until the new term started. And it was just so much fun chatting to him. And you'll see some, I think you might pick up some influences that he was recording in the summer, kind of early in the summer.

[00:01:51] So, I just kind of warned that you're thinking, oh, this sounds like it was recorded at a different time. It was. It really was. Well, friends, warm welcome. If you are a new listener, it is great to have you with us. If you are a regular or older listener, it's really good to have you as well. I would really love to encourage you, you know, if you've got any things that you'd love us to discuss in the podcast, then do feed it through to me, either through Instagram or Facebook.

[00:02:21] I would love to hear if there's anything particular you'd love us to cover. There are a few topics in the coming weeks that are from listeners that have come in over the summer that we'll be doing some work on. So, we'll be exploring those over the coming weeks. But here we go. Today's episode, interview with Caleb Woodbridge. Communication, cultural creativity, dot, dot, dot, evangelism, apologetics. I hope you find this episode interesting.

[00:02:58] Caleb, welcome to Making Disciples. I'm really, I'm quite excited about the kind of conversation we're going to have. Because I think it's quite, you know, it's going to be creative, it's imaginative. We're going to talk about things that I absolutely love as well. Doctor Who and science fiction. And you absolutely love that whole kind of C.S. Lewis talking world as well. I see indeed. And I can also see on your shelf, you've clearly been reading Galahad and the Grail. Oh yes. Which just so happens to be on my desk.

[00:03:29] Which is a whole other thing. So, Caleb, for those that don't know you, give us a little snapshot window. Who is Caleb? What do you do? What are you passionate about? Yes. So, I am a writer and freelance editor. My background is in Christian publishing. I currently work part-time for a university doing some communication stuff.

[00:03:53] But I like to spend my time as much as possible engaging in conversations around story and meaning making. Connecting with people through the bridge of imagination. And using that as a way of opening up deeper conversations to go deeper with people. So, I like to think of stories as being bigger on the inside than the out.

[00:04:24] Like the wardrobe to Narnia and like Doctor Who's TARDIS. And so, I think they're a wonderful way of being able to, in quite a friendly and non-threatening way, just go deeper with people. And so, that's a wonderful opportunity. And so, as a Christian then, of course, I want to point people to the true story, the true myth, as Tolkien and Lewis thought of it, of Jesus.

[00:04:53] And that he is the one who fulfills all of our longings that we express through story. So, there is a way of listening to people's stories and engaging well with that and going, just thinking about, okay, well, what's the longing that people are expressing there? And how does that find fulfillment in the gospel, in knowing God? So, that's my heart and that's my passion. That's what I write and speak about.

[00:05:24] The reason I came across you originally, somebody mentioned you to me about a year ago, was I used to run, as part of our church, something called Story Slam. And we'd take over the local pub, eight story tellers, and we'd vote at the end of the evening whose story we loved the most. Which is a bit unfair, because all stories, you know, are slightly different. But it was a great way of getting people to tell a story. And we'd always have six regular funny stories. We'd have somebody retell a parable, and we'd have somebody tell a testimony.

[00:05:51] And it was a way of just using stories as a way into conversation. And then somebody mentioned to me, you were doing something called, I think this is right, the Estuary? Yes, Estuary Protocol, which is a way of having conversations with a particular structure. Yeah, and I found that really interesting, using conversation, dialogue, story. Just tell us a little bit, because that links with the discipleship stuff, and then you try and get people to engage.

[00:06:21] So just give us an idea of what is that? How are you using them for those that might be interested? Yeah, so Estuary is a structure for facilitating conversations. So I run these at Park Arts here in Treforest. I'm in the South Wales Valleys.

[00:06:42] And Park Arts is a local community centre that is a home for the artist and a home for the audience. And they draw in different people there, different beliefs, different perspectives. But we pick a question on the evening. We sort of go around, do some introductions. And then I ask people, what have you been thinking about? And it might be something cultural.

[00:07:11] It might be a podcast they've listened to or a book they've read. It might be something going on locally. It might be something personal or spiritual. And then we listen to each other's things and pick a topic to dive into. And it's a way of going deep, but not scary deep. A sort of friendly way of opening up those deeper connections and deeper conversations.

[00:07:35] And very often then you're tripping up against people's spiritual beliefs, their philosophical beliefs, and opening up space to encounter each other's views. The idea of Estuary is that it's where salt water meets fresh water. And so that idea of encounter across difference. And I really love that.

[00:08:00] It really does bring out some amazing conversations and chances to bring people together. That's something that a pastor in America, Paul van der Klee, he helped devise that format because he was engaging with people who'd been thinking about stuff like coming out of Jordan Peterson and sort of the conversations he was opening up. And so it's been used in a lot of other contexts.

[00:08:28] There's a UK network. There was recently a conference in London called Breakwater, an Estuary conference. And I think it's really fruitful in terms of opening up space for people wrestling with different questions, maybe wrestling with the so-called meaning crisis and that sense of looking for meaning in our culture. And I think even as Christians, we can sometimes have a disconnect.

[00:08:52] I mean, there's different reasons you might not have a sense of meaning in your life, one of which is that you don't have a story. And another is that you have a story, but it's in some way broken down. It's kind of not been able to match up to your lived reality. We might have a story that is rich and fruitful, but it's just not connecting somehow. And I think even as Christians, we've got the gospel story,

[00:09:19] but getting it to actually integrate with our lives, with our hearts, our feelings, our ways of imagining and being in the world. That's a big part of discipleship. But there's often a meaning gap for us to close in our lives as well. And so I think imagination is part of that. And having these kinds of conversations is really helpful for that as well. Yeah, we certainly found when we did the story slam, the stories opened up conversation.

[00:09:49] And allowed us a way in to then having conversations with people in the pub. What did you think about what they said about? And I thought it was great. Can we just carry on that imagination through line? I'm going to be up front. I'm going to ask you two things about imagination, so you don't have to drift into the second one without we talking about the first one first. I do want to talk in a minute with you about imagination and culture and how those two things collide.

[00:10:15] But I also want to just talk now about imagination and discipleship. Now, we can't separate culture from discipleship. We know that. We're all being discipled in culture. But I do want to talk, in some ways I want to talk about in church, out church. You know, imagination within the faith community and imagination then played out outside the faith community. So if we talk then about just imagination and discipleship, where are you seeing those theological connections

[00:10:42] that are just really stimulating how you think about disciple making? Yeah. So I would see imagination as mapping quite closely onto what the Bible calls the eyes of the heart. Imagination is about how we see the world and how we shape the world. It's also a way that imagination reveals our hearts and also shapes our hearts.

[00:11:12] So let's just unpack that a little bit. So, say for example, the way we see the world and see reality. Tozer said that the most important thing about you is what you think about when you think about God. And I'd say that the way we imagine God is really key to our discipleship

[00:11:38] and whether we've got a healthy, rich way of imagining God or maybe one that's somewhat reduced or distorted. So, for example, there's a world of difference between really understanding and imagining God in terms of a loving, self-giving father versus an angry judge. And there is a place for God's judgment in our understanding of God.

[00:12:07] But again, it's how we imagine that. It's not just having the bare idea of a judge, but a judge who is bringing justice and fairness and all of these things. And how we put all of these images together and how we round out our images of God biblically, that's really key. But it also relates to other things like how we see the world

[00:12:34] and whether we see the world as God enchanted, as full of meaning, as speaking of a good and generous creator, or whether we see it as raw material stuff to be exploited. And Malcolm Gite is wonderful just in terms of casting a good spell with his Arthurian retelling, Galahad and the Grail, in terms of giving us a richer way of seeing the world.

[00:13:05] And that's story, art, poetry, songs, all of these different things can help shape the way that we see God, see reality, see our neighbours, imagination as empathy, seeing our neighbours, imagining our neighbours as ourselves. There's all these different connections. So I think imagination isn't simply making stuff up.

[00:13:35] That's a wonderful gift of God. But it's also our perception, the way we see and engage with the world, as well as how we create and build and make stuff that's new in the world. So for someone, I'm just thinking about someone who maybe struggles with imagination, I'm just thinking about an alpha course we did a number of years ago, where somebody who struggles to see beyond what they would perceive

[00:14:03] as a scientific understanding of the world, although they weren't that scientific, can't imagine beyond what they can see. How can imagination be a problem or actually is there still hope? Yeah. So I think it's interesting with science because I think actually science takes a lot of imagination as well.

[00:14:31] You have to imagine possibilities in order to be able to test the ideas. Einstein was brilliant because he had such a vivid imagination. He could imagine, OK, what would happen if you were sitting on top of a wave of light, going at the speed of light, and then you shot off a beam of light from that? And he did all these thought experiments. And so imagination and science aren't opposed.

[00:15:00] I think C.S. Lewis distinguished between reason is the organ of truth, but imagination is the organ of meaning. So I think for someone struggling with imagination is not to see it as just making stuff up, airy-fairy. It's bringing lively understanding to things. And it's also, we need to be able to imagine something in order to understand it,

[00:15:29] in order to be able to consider whether it's true or not. It's tasting the truth. It's bringing truth alive. So if people are sort of like, oh, this is just wishy-washy, airy-fairy. Actually, we're all always already using imagination all the time. We just often don't realise it. And so it's just becoming aware of that and seeing the role that it plays.

[00:15:53] And so by paying attention to it, we can cultivate it more deeply and help clean the lenses. And it can go wrong. It can get distorted. Like every part of us as human beings can go wrong in all sorts of different ways.

[00:16:15] So yeah, the imagination definitely needs to be trained and discipled towards truth and goodness and beauty and all of these things. But I'd say that we can't do without it. I guess it's allowing ourselves to go beyond the barrier, beyond the place of understanding and stepping into the place of the unknown,

[00:16:40] so that we might find something new that we've not really spotted before. Yeah. If we only ever leave ourselves with what we know, fact, the problem is we're never going to go beyond it. And that's where imagination allows us to travel beyond what is known. Yeah. Imagination is the thing that helps us make that leap into an aha moment where stuff comes together, I think.

[00:17:11] So yeah, it's a key part of discovery of being able to leap from facts to understanding. I suppose with Jesus expanding the imagination of the disciples, apprenticing them in the way of the kingdom of God, where healing was becoming something that was meant to be normal, not abnormal, he's expanding in their imagination of what is possible. Talk to us about culture.

[00:17:41] Yeah. And particularly a society that I've heard you talk about in terms of being starved of imagination. Mm-hmm. How does, what's the interplay between imagination and culture? So yeah, I think more starved, it's an interesting paradox because on the one hand, I think our culture is starved of meaning.

[00:18:05] There are some statistics from YouGov from a few years ago saying that around one in three people find their lives lack meaning or are meaningless. And I think that's really startling because even if people aren't finding a Christian meaning even, they're not finding any meaning at all. And that's a real crisis, a spiritual crisis.

[00:18:30] And so I think part of what things like Estuary can do is just give some existential first aid in terms of helping people start to find community, find space to talk going through, find meaning. Now, hopefully I would want people not to find just any meaning, but meaning in God, in Christ, because that's what I believe to be true.

[00:18:55] And the most deepest level of, the deepest level of meaning in reality is found in God. But yeah, and also people are struggling with so many competing narratives. There's on the one level, we've got this split between we're very scientifically minded, we're very reduced in the way that we look at the world.

[00:19:23] But on the other hand, we've got so much culture, there's so many shows to stream, there's so many things available, there's so many competing narratives that we're drowning in them. So Martin Shores talks about how we're sort of like over-storied almost. And so it's like we're lost in the multiverse of meaning.

[00:19:52] And so how we find a way through that into finding a meaning that's big enough to give a unified sense of a whole that we can live within, I think is the challenge. So it's finding integration between facts and meaning, not seeing those as being two separate things.

[00:20:16] And some of McGilchrist stuff about brain hemispheres is really interesting in terms of the need to bring those together. But yeah, C.S. Lewis also talks about sort of needing to bring together his reason and imagination. And the gospel as being both something grounded in history. So it's factually true, but also imaginatively satisfying as a myth.

[00:20:43] It's able to give that unity to a unifying story to life. I think that's really key, the sort of reconciliation of those things. Well, should we talk about stories? Yeah. Because I loved how you alluded to Doctor Who earlier with your comment about story. I loved watching, I think we had a conversation previously about Stranger Things.

[00:21:08] I loved seeing how the story of Stranger Things was telling us some incredible theological narratives that if you could only see them. I was with someone last week, I was actually in Wales, Kevin Lee. Oh, yes. I was talking to somebody about Harry Potter. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She said, oh, Christians shouldn't read her. I know people say Christians shouldn't read Harry Potter. I said, yeah, but have you noticed this is a Christian story? And she said, no. And she must have been in her late 20s. So I just unpacked the story briefly.

[00:21:38] And I'm not a massive Harry Potter fan, but I know the story and I've watched the films and I unpacked it with her. She went, I never realised that. I'm going to tell Harry he sacrifices himself, but he's been projected by love and he returns as a resurrection and defeats evil. And she's like, I never realised all that. And you're learning to see stories through a biblical or theological eye is interesting. Yeah, he dies and he wakes up at King's Cross.

[00:22:07] Yes. It's King's Cross. Think about it. I mean, obviously there's a station, but there's a whole level of symbolism. Yeah, there's so much going on in the Harry Potter books. I think Chamber of Secrets with the serpent and the going down and the phoenix as a symbol of resurrection. There's the baptism imagery of when they're destroying the Horcrux and going down into the pool in the last one. And yeah, there's so much going on.

[00:22:36] J.K. Rowling is so steeped in it. It's very clever because it is mostly implicit. It's kind of not spelled out. But yeah, there is such a rich and deep Christian theme there. And I think in a post-Christian culture, that's one of the ways you see things going is that Christianity doesn't disappear. It just goes slightly underground. And we see that in our stories.

[00:23:04] These Christian themes are so deeply embedded in our culture just come popping up all over the place. And Doctor Who's really interesting because I think a lot of the writers for it have been atheists, people like Russell T Davies and Stephen Moffat, as well as some of the writers on the classic show.

[00:23:27] But they've often not been able to resist playing with the Christian imagery and playing with the idea of the Doctor as a Messiah. And sort of maybe some of the tensions that throws up. Is he a lonely God or is he a madman in a box? And you have that exploration of the tension between the kind of more rational side and the more mythic side.

[00:23:52] I've written about the romantic rationalism of Doctor Who and how you've got those two threads running through the show. But yeah, you see patterns. So obviously the Doctor's regeneration lends itself to that motif of death and resurrection. Obviously it's repeated and in the 70s there was more of a Buddhist spin on that.

[00:24:16] But certainly often it has had a Christian flavour to it in terms of the Doctor's sacrifices. You had the story where with David Tennant as the Doctor and John Simmers the Master. And the Doctor is turned into this Dobby-like house elf thing aged. But Martha goes round preaching the Gospel of the Doctor telling everyone to believe in the Doctor.

[00:24:45] And he kind of has this moment of transfiguration where he's healed. He forgives the Master. And it's very explicitly playing off these themes. Now there's often a humanist spin on that in that it was humanity's belief being channelled through telepathic networks that is the thing. So it's not actually the Doctor's power inherently. It's the power of humanity's belief in him.

[00:25:14] So there's interesting ways in which it's using Christian imagery but then saying something different with that. But I think it opens up really rich space for conversation and discussion around this. And often then with I find as a Doctor Who fan that's often a very natural way into having more spiritual conversations.

[00:25:38] I've found that the community that you get as a fan around shows like this is also a really good way of just being present with other people. Having genuine relationships. You've got a genuine shared love with other people. Love of the show with other people. But then out of talking about that it reveals what different people see in the show and how that resonates with their values.

[00:26:05] And that's often a really interesting place to start getting to know people and then maybe having conversations. And yeah I've found that a fruitful way. I've had there was a Doctor Who local fan group that I was part of and that was really good in person as well as engaging in fandom online in terms of discussions around this.

[00:26:29] So I think I'd encourage Christians if you're a fan of something don't miss that opportunity to engage in community, in conversation, to have a bridge. And who knows what it then might open up spiritually in terms of chance to share something of the hope you have in the gospel.

[00:26:50] So if listeners are listening now what we're essentially saying is wear a pair of glasses that allows you to see the media and see the Christian nods and flavours within it. So for example you can do this with I mentioned Stranger Things. If you've seen the new He-Man movie that is you know I have the power. A man with no power receives the power of the spirit and then becomes this He-Man who destroys the skeleton or who is the devil.

[00:27:18] Like Hail Mary the movie that's recently come out. Lord of the Rings is riddled with this stuff. Obviously Narnia is riddled with this stuff. And it's seeing the media with that kind of biblical lens that allow you kind of a hook. So if we come back to Doctor Who for a second because this is really interesting. Have you had conversations with people where you've just seen their eyes light up.

[00:27:44] As they've suddenly realised something about Christianity. That's gone oh I never thought about it like that. Yeah so something I've used quite a bit in talking about discipleship with Christians. Is that call to adventure and that Doctor Who thing going back to when the show came back. Do you want to come with me?

[00:28:12] Says the Doctor to the audience in the trailer. Because if you do I have to warn you it won't be quiet. It won't be calm. It won't be safe. But I'll tell you it will be the trip of a lifetime. And I think that's often helped I think for me to see people's eyes light up. And just to see that injection of a sense of adventure. And you see that in the way that companions go with the Doctor. And they're transformed. They grow by being with him.

[00:28:40] And that's like what we do as Christians. We spend time with Jesus. We learn to do what he does. As we are then sent out in a similar way. To the companions learning to become like the Doctor. And to stand up for good in the same kind of ways that he does. And eventually having to leave the TARDIS. And go and have their own adventures elsewhere. Whether willingly or often unwillingly.

[00:29:09] But there's that time to step out in their own way. Yeah. And I think in terms of. And I have had people who have been Doctor Who fans. Who've been on a spiritual journey. And seen people online and in person. Either come to church or start taking interest in faith. So that's really encouraging.

[00:29:37] I wouldn't put that down to me talking about it. I think it's often being in the right place at the right time. When the Lord's at work in someone's life. But then in his providence. Being there and being able to have those conversations. And draw those connections between. Maybe the questions they are asking spiritually. And Doctor Who is something that we are both interested in.

[00:30:06] That opens up the way for discipleship. For evangelism. For talking about these things. You need to go to Norwich Comic Con. Norwich Comic Con has always got a massive Doctor Who contingent. Including TARDISes, Daleks. People cosplaying. Or they've had Peter Davison. You name it. Over the years. I think I've seen most of the living doctors. Across the room.

[00:30:36] At Norwich Comic Con. They love it. I mean. I've never been to any Comic Con that's so Doctor Who focused. Is that one. We've run out of time already. That's just amazing. So you run a podcast don't you. On imaginative discipleship. Just tell us about that briefly. If anybody would like to hear more about. Some of the things that you're thinking about. Yeah. Imaginativediscipleship.com. So yeah. I think. Thinking about things like. Talking to different people about. Things.

[00:31:06] Sometimes about Narnia. And. C.S. Lewis. Got an episode recorded. For someone who's. Looked at that in the context of cross-cultural. Apologetics. That's really interesting. Another way of building bridges. Is. I'm thinking a lot about this idea of a meaning gap. And how we use imagination to cross. Cross the meaning gap. Also how we look at different aspects of the world. So like. How we look at. Who we are as human beings. Because.

[00:31:36] There's often. A very. One of the questions science fiction explores. Is what does it mean to be humans. There's all sorts of interesting ways. That that. That bubbles up. So yes. Imaginativediscipleship.com. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I also have the. Bigger on the inside. Substack. Where I'm exploring some of these. These questions. But. What. What I hope I'm doing. Is creating. Conversations. Because. What I really love to do.

[00:32:06] Is to. To open up. Discussion. And so. That I love being able to. Interview people. And converse with people. About. Different. Themes and things. But also I'm hoping that. In terms of. It gets people talking. Gets people thinking. In a way that. Seeds good. That seeds. Cultural conversations.

[00:32:35] Conversations about meaning. That help people connect. At a deeper level. In their own lives. So. Yeah. I hope. I hope it's feeding into that. And sowing seeds. And that. In some. Some way. Amazing. Gabriel. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. We've mentioned Malcolm Goet. We've also mentioned. Martin Shaw. Which is not the actor. Martin Shaw. The storyteller. Yes. So there are a few other names. If listeners have heard those names. And you're interested. Just go Google them. They're both incredible.

[00:33:06] Incredible people. Thank you so much. It's been lovely having you on. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's nice to be able to. Who also enjoys Doctor Who. Yes. Yeah. Grace and peace.