227. Dez Brown - Convicted or Condemned to Forgiven and Free.

[00:00:08] Hi friends, welcome to another episode of Making Disciples. My name is Cris and I am your host. Today's episode is a good one. We're going to be interviewing Dez Brown, he's the CEO and founder of Spark to Life, an amazing ministry here in the east of London that predominantly works with black young men in the prison system. Many who've been let down in some shape or form.

[00:00:38] And the effects that has on their family, on them, the futures. You'll hear in the story, it's just an incredible ministry. But what they do is they aim to develop and grow young men who not only turn their lives around but go on to do amazing things.

[00:00:55] And Dez himself is a reformed offender. He's married, he's got four adult children and he just has this incredible story of...

[00:01:07] He, you'll hear in the testimonies, I'm not going to give it away, but he was a part of a violent crime that meant he did prison time. And it's just this incredible story of God at work in his life.

[00:01:21] And it's just such a testimony of how God can change lives. But what I would say is, therefore, there may be parts in this interview where you think, this is enough for me right now, I just need to hit pause.

[00:01:34] Please feel like you can do that. Sometimes, you know, you don't need to hear everything. You don't need to have everything specifically said. So there may be times you just want to hit pause.

[00:01:45] Just think about what's being said. I would say, listen to the whole interview. It's just powerful seeing God at work in someone's life. I just want to give you permission to do that.

[00:01:53] Secondly, I would say there's a section in this interview where we will stop the interview. I asked Dez a question and the answer is amazing.

[00:02:03] But for the dignity of the family that we're talking about, I'm going to hit pause. I'm going to just give you a brief kind of sense of overview of what we talked about.

[00:02:12] And then we'll carry on just for the dignity of the family. And you'll see what we mean when we get there with a particular question.

[00:02:20] I just think that's a nice honoring thing that we could do in this podcast. So Dez came to our church. We interviewed him.

[00:02:27] And it was just so beautiful. This is a Making Disciples episode. This is an interview for Making Disciples.

[00:02:32] So it's recorded in a live audience, which gives it a particular dynamic as well.

[00:02:37] So Dez ministers through Spark to Life, an incredible ministry. I'll put the link in the bio.

[00:02:43] And he has written a book called Convicted or Condemned, which he talks about as well.

[00:02:46] Another thing just to be aware of a great, great book.

[00:02:49] If you've got a young man, particularly who's really struggling to make wise decisions, convicted and condemned,

[00:02:55] it's just a really interesting book to see the power of the gospel at work in someone's life.

[00:03:02] Shall we jump in as we spend our time with Dez Brown, hearing his story, but also celebrating the good news,

[00:03:09] Jesus at work in someone's life.

[00:03:11] So here we go. Interview with Dez Brown.

[00:03:21] Can we just welcome Dez?

[00:03:25] I am going to ask you your testimony. I'm going to ask you about the work that you do now.

[00:03:30] But you have written a book and you have a copy right there. Do you want to tell us about it?

[00:03:36] Yes. So I've written a book. In fact, it's ghostwritten.

[00:03:39] If I was writing the book, I'd still be writing it now.

[00:03:41] But it's called Convicted or Condemned. It's a true life story of my journey because I wasn't brought up in faith and I came through to faith.

[00:03:50] But part of that journey was going through the criminal justice system.

[00:03:53] So I'm very honest, very real about that.

[00:03:57] First of all, upbringing and then coming through to faith.

[00:04:01] But the reason I've called it Convicted or Condemned is because I think from a judicial point of view, i.e. the criminal justice system,

[00:04:08] when you're standing in the dock, you can either be convicted or you can feel condemned.

[00:04:13] And similarly, I think when we come through to Christ, you know, it's good that we feel convicted, but God isn't a God that condemns us.

[00:04:20] And I think for what I went through the criminal justice system for, it's very easy to feel condemned.

[00:04:27] Shall we start by you sharing some of your testimony with us?

[00:04:31] Yes.

[00:04:32] I think it'd just be really interesting for folk to kind of know where you've come from and kind of, you know, how God has been at work in your life.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:40] You can take as long.

[00:04:40] So to explain, in our small groups this last term, we've all been telling our testimonies.

[00:04:44] Okay.

[00:04:45] So as the weeks have gone on, different ones of us have been sharing our testimonies with our small groups.

[00:04:49] It's been amazing to hear how God has been faithful those that are in small groups.

[00:04:54] It's been a real gift.

[00:04:56] We'd love to hear just something of your story of how you saw God at work.

[00:04:59] You can take as long as you like, but we do want to be home by midnight.

[00:05:03] Yes, yes, yes.

[00:05:04] Okay.

[00:05:05] I mean, there's so much to one's journey, as I'm sure is to everybody's testimony, as it were.

[00:05:10] But I wasn't, as I mentioned, brought up in a Christian home.

[00:05:13] And I suppose, you know, brought up.

[00:05:15] My mom was an atheist.

[00:05:17] Dad was actually a backslidden, and what that means was a Christian, fell away from being a Christian.

[00:05:23] So he was a Christian in Jamaica, came to this country in the 60s, kind of fell away, and didn't really bring Christianity in the home.

[00:05:31] My mom's wife was very much a strong matriarchal figure within the home, and this is in the 70s.

[00:05:38] And growing up in a place called Barking and Dagnum, which at that time was quite racist, so it's very rare you'd see kind of a black dad or a black man married to a white woman in that.

[00:05:49] And being in school, probably one of three black males in my year group, and probably in the school maybe about ten, as it were.

[00:05:57] And the reason I say that is because often our identity, especially for me, kind of revolved as I became a teenager around, you know, what is my heritage, where am I from, etc.

[00:06:09] And as many, not all, but teenagers can become, I was quite lively.

[00:06:16] There was three boys, so I'm the kind of middle child, and I got quite active.

[00:06:21] You'd probably class me now very much anti-social behavior.

[00:06:24] I mean, I wasn't a bad kid, but, you know, smashing windows, going to places you shouldn't really, etc.

[00:06:35] But that said, as I began to get older, I think I became, or my behavior, and it wasn't because of the upbringing.

[00:06:43] Family, very loving, mum, dad, very supportive.

[00:06:45] But I think I've quite an inquisitive, I mean, I see the marks in the alpha course about being curious.

[00:06:52] I'm very curious.

[00:06:53] And so I found myself, probably from about the age of 13, experimenting with alcohol, which then led me on to kind of softer drugs,

[00:07:05] which was cannabis, then getting into speed, etc., and getting also involved in levels of criminal activity.

[00:07:13] Just as a kind of plot, at the age of 11, got involved in a fight, got stabbed when I was 11,

[00:07:20] and I remember that just really shaping my worldview, standing up for a friend, getting involved in something.

[00:07:28] And I remember, again, your identity and kind of springing off of that amongst your peers of how, you know, you're kind of seen as being tough.

[00:07:37] But when I was getting the stitches, I was crying, obviously, like a baby, and my mum's holding me.

[00:07:41] But obviously, I'm not going to tell them that story.

[00:07:43] I'm telling them a story that projects a strong image.

[00:07:46] And I think that kind of stuck with me.

[00:07:48] And some of that was because I think my mum, especially when we was a bit younger,

[00:07:52] when we would kind of get into scrapes or whatnot, if it was around being bullied or, you know, kind of a racial intention.

[00:08:00] I remember one time coming home, and my mum kind of clicked me around and said,

[00:08:05] get out there and look up for yourself, and sent me brother out there as well, me older brother.

[00:08:09] And it kind of meant that my mum was trying to say, look, you need to begin to look up for yourself,

[00:08:12] because life's not always going to be easy in this context.

[00:08:16] But then kind of fast forwarding, I then began to get involved in levels of criminal activity,

[00:08:22] burglary, street robberies, and sadly, at the age of 17, in using knives, I ended up taking somebody's life.

[00:08:30] And just prior to that, my brother's face had been cut.

[00:08:32] He had 18 stitches, nearly lost his eye.

[00:08:35] And I remember the whole family sitting around the table talking about retaliation,

[00:08:41] and my parents would never do that, especially my dad.

[00:08:43] But it's just interesting when things happen to a family, how their mindset or their views on things can change quite quickly,

[00:08:50] bearing in mind that, you know, we wasn't in any way.

[00:08:52] I mean, my mum, like I said, was an atheist.

[00:08:54] We wasn't Christians in any way.

[00:08:57] And it kind of brought my parents into our world,

[00:08:59] and we had an uncle who, again, had a bit of a history with firearms,

[00:09:03] and we were talking about retaliation, what should we do to this person, etc.,

[00:09:07] who had done this to my brother.

[00:09:09] And I think that's the trigger that caused me to become a bit more knife-happy.

[00:09:14] And that took me down the kind of criminal justice route.

[00:09:18] Sadly, the man whose life I took was a soldier.

[00:09:20] His dad was a policeman in Scotland Yard.

[00:09:22] It was in the national press.

[00:09:23] And I went into prison.

[00:09:25] At that time, it was slop out, which basically you get two buckets,

[00:09:28] one to go to the toilet and one to wash in.

[00:09:30] And I remember going in there and I had to see a psychiatrist

[00:09:33] because they're assessing one's mental health

[00:09:36] because of the extremity of the offence.

[00:09:39] The system's asking the question,

[00:09:40] what is it that caused you to do this, etc.

[00:09:43] And I remember being in Brixton specifically,

[00:09:47] not showering for the whole week,

[00:09:49] because I was in, obviously, it's an adult prison,

[00:09:53] and there's a lot of notorious, not that I wasn't,

[00:09:56] but a lot of notorious offenders in there.

[00:09:59] So you'd see kind of people that had been in there like 15 years

[00:10:02] or Codys, which is co-defendants of the Cray Twins,

[00:10:07] people that was in there.

[00:10:08] And you'd kind of heard of these names.

[00:10:10] And I remember seeing a psychiatrist and said,

[00:10:12] is there anything we can do for you?

[00:10:13] And I said, yeah, can you get me out of here?

[00:10:15] And it was about a week or so I was in there.

[00:10:18] Then they moved me to Feltham.

[00:10:19] And when I was in Feltham, I had a big mouth,

[00:10:22] got into trouble, got into fights.

[00:10:25] But I remember wanting to retaliate,

[00:10:27] but knowing I was going to court.

[00:10:29] And in that period of time, my girlfriend come to visit me,

[00:10:32] who's actually now my wife,

[00:10:33] and she said she's been saved.

[00:10:35] And I said, saved from what?

[00:10:37] She said she's become a Christian.

[00:10:39] I said, no, no, I'm not interested.

[00:10:42] Because in my world, I was my own God.

[00:10:45] I decided what was right and wrong.

[00:10:47] I mean, I thought about Rastafarianism,

[00:10:49] because I thought you could smoke weed.

[00:10:51] And I thought, that's good.

[00:10:53] And then I thought about maybe Islam,

[00:10:55] because that was about kind of black identity for me

[00:10:58] and part of what I was trying to find my identity in.

[00:11:01] And I remember coming out, they gave me bail

[00:11:03] in a magistrate's court, which is unheard of.

[00:11:06] So if anyone knows about the judicial system,

[00:11:07] you get three types or three chances to get bail.

[00:11:11] And for a serious offence,

[00:11:12] you'd usually get two chances at magistrate's court.

[00:11:15] Then if you get refused, you can then appeal to Crown Court

[00:11:18] and say, look, would you give this person bail?

[00:11:20] They gave me bail for like £25,000 of surety,

[00:11:23] which is probably equivalent to about £200,000 now,

[00:11:25] where my parents had to sign over the house.

[00:11:27] So I came out.

[00:11:28] I couldn't go back to Barkley and Dagnum.

[00:11:30] I wasn't allowed in that area.

[00:11:32] There was lots of death threats.

[00:11:35] My friends that were associated with me would get attacked.

[00:11:38] Bricks thrown through windows.

[00:11:40] I was in the middle of the house.

[00:11:41] Because of the person whose life was taken,

[00:11:42] he was connected to the ICF, which is the intercity firm.

[00:11:47] And I remember not being allowed in the area,

[00:11:50] but travelling through to see my girlfriend

[00:11:52] and getting into another altercation with something completely different.

[00:11:56] And this time I got stabbed twice.

[00:11:57] And I remember my life was just spiralling out of control.

[00:12:01] My parents remember going home because I had to move house.

[00:12:04] And that was when, many of you won't know this time,

[00:12:06] but in the 90s, interest rates were 16%.

[00:12:11] Which is, we think now when it goes up to 5% or 6%,

[00:12:13] people start getting a bit shaky.

[00:12:15] You think of 16%.

[00:12:16] My parents had to get a bridging loan to move and all of that.

[00:12:19] I remember going home, mum crying, dad crying,

[00:12:21] saying what you're doing to the family, you're destroying it.

[00:12:23] I couldn't receive love at that time.

[00:12:25] I thought it's my problem, I'll deal with it.

[00:12:28] And I remember my girlfriend kept saying to me,

[00:12:30] come church.

[00:12:32] And I said, in the end, to kind of appease,

[00:12:35] I said, all right, I will go, but I'll choose the church.

[00:12:38] Like I knew anything about church.

[00:12:39] And someone had given me a flyer of like a gospel concert.

[00:12:43] So I said, well, let's go here.

[00:12:45] So I remember going to these churches in Walthamstow,

[00:12:47] because that's where my girlfriend lived.

[00:12:48] Never been in a church before, literally.

[00:12:51] Maybe when I was younger, there was a church

[00:12:53] at the very end of the road, like for kids club and whatnot.

[00:12:56] I think I'd been in there, but not any service.

[00:12:58] Never heard the gospel, never heard about Jesus Christ,

[00:13:01] never heard about sins, never heard about nothing.

[00:13:04] We're going to this church.

[00:13:05] My hair was in twist when I had hair.

[00:13:07] My trousers were rolled up and I had a bandana.

[00:13:10] And I remember, I can't remember the message.

[00:13:12] All I remember the person saying is,

[00:13:14] if you've done wrong in your life,

[00:13:15] you want God to forgive you, then come to the front.

[00:13:18] I thought, well, that's me.

[00:13:19] You know, I've done wrong.

[00:13:20] Because I remember when I was in Felton,

[00:13:23] my sister, who's, well, sister on my dad's side, half-sister,

[00:13:27] she'd say to me, make sure you say your prayers.

[00:13:29] She wasn't even a Christian, by the way.

[00:13:31] But it's kind of part of the cultural context

[00:13:34] of being brought up in a black home.

[00:13:35] You kind of need to pray your prayers and whatnot.

[00:13:37] And that was how she was brought up.

[00:13:38] She said, remember, you pray your prayers.

[00:13:39] And I used to, no word of a lie,

[00:13:42] I wasn't a Christian.

[00:13:44] I used to pray, but really honestly,

[00:13:48] to God who I did not know.

[00:13:51] In fact, I had a routine.

[00:13:52] I used to bench press the bed,

[00:13:55] smoke a cigarette, and then pray.

[00:13:57] And it's funny, because I've looked back,

[00:13:59] and there's this sense that when you are really sincere with God,

[00:14:03] regardless of where you are and who you are and where you're from,

[00:14:06] I've always felt that God will honor that

[00:14:09] and make himself known to you.

[00:14:11] Because it was a genuine prayer.

[00:14:12] I'd say, God, forgive me for the wrong that I've done.

[00:14:15] I'd pray for my family.

[00:14:17] I'd even pray for the family of the deceased.

[00:14:18] Now, if you used to say, what did I pray?

[00:14:20] It was very simple.

[00:14:22] But there was no real knowledge of God.

[00:14:24] I just knew there was a higher power.

[00:14:26] So now when I fast forward, and I'm in this church,

[00:14:28] and I respond, I remember standing at the front.

[00:14:31] These people come around you like a magnet.

[00:14:34] For those that have been in church for a while,

[00:14:35] they're probably familiar with that experience.

[00:14:38] And they say, do you want to accept Jesus?

[00:14:41] And I did.

[00:14:42] And then they said, do you want the Holy Spirit?

[00:14:45] And I didn't really understand fully what the Holy Spirit was.

[00:14:47] But my girlfriend's brother had recently had quite a radical conversion.

[00:14:52] And he'd always talk to me about Jesus.

[00:14:54] But I wasn't really interested.

[00:14:56] But I know he talked about the Spirit.

[00:14:57] So I thought, if the Spirit must be good.

[00:14:58] So they prayed for me.

[00:15:00] And no word of a lie.

[00:15:01] And people might have their different kind of theological views on this.

[00:15:05] But I got filled with the Holy Spirit.

[00:15:07] Standing there, I began to speak in this unknown tongue.

[00:15:11] And it's quite, for about five, six seconds, it's quite overwhelming.

[00:15:14] And I stopped.

[00:15:15] And I went and I sat down.

[00:15:18] And I knew something had happened.

[00:15:21] But I couldn't contextualize it.

[00:15:22] Because I didn't know the Bible.

[00:15:24] Now, I'm going to fast forward now.

[00:15:25] Because there's so many different junctures.

[00:15:27] And all I can say is, you've got to read the book.

[00:15:29] That's all I can say.

[00:15:31] But fast forwarding.

[00:15:33] I genuinely have another encounter with God.

[00:15:37] That this woman was crying in a church.

[00:15:39] Saying, we've been praying for you.

[00:15:40] We've been praying for you.

[00:15:41] And for the first time, the love of God hit me.

[00:15:44] I thought, this woman, she knows what I've done.

[00:15:46] But yet, she's crying.

[00:15:48] She's praying for me.

[00:15:49] And there was this sense, if that's the God you're talking about.

[00:15:52] Then I want to get to know him.

[00:15:53] And that started my journey of salvation.

[00:15:57] And following.

[00:15:58] And it addressed the issues of carrying knives.

[00:16:00] Taking drugs.

[00:16:02] Retribution.

[00:16:03] Revenge.

[00:16:03] All of that stuff come to the surface.

[00:16:06] So, it took weeks and months to kind of flush that stuff out.

[00:16:09] Through prayer.

[00:16:10] People praying for me.

[00:16:11] Encouraging me.

[00:16:12] Me thinking about what I'm going to do.

[00:16:14] How am I going to respond to this.

[00:16:15] But I still had to go to court.

[00:16:17] And it was at the Old Bailey.

[00:16:19] And it was meant to last two weeks.

[00:16:23] It lasted three days.

[00:16:24] And they said, guilty or not guilty for murder.

[00:16:26] So, the whole time, I'm not sure you know.

[00:16:28] Much about the criminal justice system.

[00:16:29] But often, they will offer you a plea.

[00:16:32] Or a decision.

[00:16:33] So, they may say, well look.

[00:16:34] Because of the circumstances.

[00:16:36] We'll offer you manslaughter if you go guilty.

[00:16:38] But they didn't.

[00:16:39] They wanted to go for murder.

[00:16:41] Which means it would be life in prison.

[00:16:43] And I remember being in the court case.

[00:16:46] It lasted three days.

[00:16:47] And they asked me on the second day.

[00:16:50] At the end of the second day.

[00:16:50] Am I going to speak?

[00:16:51] Because I had to go into the witness box and talk.

[00:16:53] And I said, yes.

[00:16:55] I went home and I prayed.

[00:16:57] And again, a powerful encounter.

[00:17:00] I haven't got time to go into it.

[00:17:01] But God said to me, no.

[00:17:02] Don't.

[00:17:03] So, I went back and I said to my barrister, I'm not.

[00:17:06] And I remember standing.

[00:17:09] Sorry.

[00:17:09] I remember standing when the jury gave or made a decision based on guilty, not guilty for murder.

[00:17:16] And they said not guilty.

[00:17:17] And they said guilty, not guilty for manslaughter.

[00:17:19] And they said guilty.

[00:17:22] And the judge went on for about 20 minutes.

[00:17:26] And as he's talking, everything just blanks out.

[00:17:28] All you're thinking is how long.

[00:17:30] Now, I missed out a significant part in this.

[00:17:33] But two months before that, I had an encounter with God.

[00:17:37] And God said to me, Des, you're not going to prison.

[00:17:39] You're going home.

[00:17:41] Now, my mum would cry and say to me, how can you say there's a God?

[00:17:45] Look what's gone on in our family.

[00:17:46] Look what's going on in the world.

[00:17:50] My friend said either you're mad.

[00:17:53] Like you've got religious mania.

[00:17:54] Because sometimes people are under severe stress.

[00:17:57] They start believing various different things to an extreme degree.

[00:18:00] Or there is a God.

[00:18:02] And my church, they would pray for me at the time.

[00:18:05] But I think they probably thought, let's hope for that.

[00:18:09] If that's what God's told you, we'll pray and we'll hope.

[00:18:13] But, you know, a realist would say, the chances are very slim.

[00:18:18] If at all possible.

[00:18:20] So the judge went on.

[00:18:22] So fast forwarding now.

[00:18:24] The judge went on and he said, we sentence you to two years probation.

[00:18:27] My legs nearly went.

[00:18:30] And the power of what God had said hit me.

[00:18:34] My mum cried out in the gallery.

[00:18:36] She still wasn't a Christian at that point.

[00:18:38] And I remember walking out the court here in that day wanting to say to the family of the deceased,

[00:18:42] look, I'm sorry, the person who's taken your son's life is different.

[00:18:45] It wasn't the right time, etc.

[00:18:48] But there was a twist.

[00:18:49] And I'm going to end on this and pass it back to you.

[00:18:51] Because it's very complex.

[00:18:53] The twist was they took me back to the Court of Appeal six months later.

[00:18:57] Because it was all in the national paper.

[00:19:00] The paper said, you know, judge makes mockery of judicial system.

[00:19:06] And took me back to the Court of Appeal.

[00:19:07] I ended up going inside.

[00:19:08] But this time I was fully fledged, passionate, born again believer in Jesus and preaching the gospel.

[00:19:17] In prison.

[00:19:19] That is a bit of a snapshot.

[00:19:21] It's a very few.

[00:19:22] It's a very few different things, yeah.

[00:19:24] The bit that I missed you.

[00:19:25] How old was you when you committed the crime?

[00:19:28] 17.

[00:19:29] 17.

[00:19:30] So you were just under 18.

[00:19:31] Just under 18, yeah.

[00:19:32] Yeah.

[00:19:33] Can I ask you, have you ever gone back to speak to the family of the deceased?

[00:19:42] What has that looked like in terms of communicating with them?

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] So in 2005, I was approached, ironically, by an inspector, a police officer in Wandsworth.

[00:19:56] Because he heard of my story.

[00:19:58] And there was a Christian, again, the irony of, a Christian police association comic that went out in 2005 called Cops and Robbers.

[00:20:08] What they would do is they'd put it in custody suites.

[00:20:11] And it would talk about true life stories of people who had radically come through to Christianity with a view that when somebody's, a young person is arrested, they can give them a comic and see that.

[00:20:20] And it went to the national paper because they said, well, it needs to be multi-faith.

[00:20:23] And the Christian police association said, no, we want to keep it.

[00:20:25] And if other faiths want to do theirs, then they can.

[00:20:28] So this police officer, who wasn't a Christian, heard of this.

[00:20:31] And he asked me, would I have a conversation with him because they're having problems in Wandsworth, going back to 2005 now around gangs, serious violence, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:20:41] Would I go and speak in schools?

[00:20:43] So we had this conversation.

[00:20:44] And I said, yes, but I think you need to know one thing.

[00:20:47] Because often people talk to me about my story, but they won't know the complexities of it.

[00:20:53] And I said, the man whose life I took was a soldier and his dad was a policeman.

[00:20:56] And I said, one, you need to know that.

[00:20:58] Because he was a chief superintendent.

[00:21:01] So it wasn't low down.

[00:21:02] He used to run a police station.

[00:21:05] And I said, you need to know that.

[00:21:09] Because, again, my view at that time, how the police work, they kind of stick to themselves and they keep to themselves.

[00:21:16] And I said, what I didn't want you to do is I'm there being taken up in the school the next minute.

[00:21:19] So we went on this journey.

[00:21:21] So he said, yes, he will.

[00:21:22] He'll make contact.

[00:21:24] Now, there was a situation that happened in Romford when there was a stabbing.

[00:21:27] And often they would come to individuals that are running programs and ask, what are your views on that?

[00:21:31] And I'll talk about it.

[00:21:32] And they referred then to my story.

[00:21:34] And they asked that very question.

[00:21:37] And I said, look, I've got no problems in speaking to the family of the deceased if it's something that they would want.

[00:21:43] But obviously it's not something that I can decide for them.

[00:21:47] So they got hold of this, the evening standard, and they tracked down the family.

[00:21:51] And they spoke to the dad and the mom.

[00:21:56] And they asked him that very question.

[00:21:58] And they said, one, the dad said he treats me with contempt, which basically means he questions the integrity of what I had said in court and my own life at that point, going back to 2006 then.

[00:22:13] And the mom says she hates me, doesn't want anything to do with me.

[00:22:17] And I remember I was on the train, opened up, and I saw this whole middle spread of the whole story, of everything, that kind of the interview.

[00:22:27] And so after that, I knew, one, they didn't want to.

[00:22:31] And the police officer thought, well, look, we need to just leave it there.

[00:22:35] So I never had that opportunity.

[00:22:37] But I think they had the opportunity.

[00:22:39] And they said, look, they don't want to.

[00:22:44] My friends, back to me for a moment.

[00:22:46] So after what Des was sharing, I ended up asking him the question, could he ever see it changing, whether he may spend time with the family?

[00:22:53] And actually, we ended up having a whole conversation there about redemption and how sometimes it can be really hard for, really, really hard for a family who've gone through that and experienced that kind of loss and grief.

[00:23:08] When someone has been stolen from their family in a crime such as the one that Des was a part of.

[00:23:16] So we ended up having a conversation about sometimes there isn't always that neat bow at the end where there's reconciliation.

[00:23:22] You pray for it and you hope for it.

[00:23:25] But sometimes there are consequences to our behavior that can be quite difficult for those that experienced it.

[00:23:31] So we ended up just having a conversation then about sometimes you've got to sit with the pain of never being able to resolve and never being able to reconcile.

[00:23:43] Because what you've been a part of is really hard for those on the other side, the family on the other side.

[00:23:49] So the nature of that conversation about the family, just for their own honor and recognizing the grief of what they have gone through.

[00:24:00] So I thought best actually, let's just cut that whole section out.

[00:24:03] So let's jump back in to the next question.

[00:24:06] Can I ask a tough question?

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:08] I don't mean this in a kind of a challenging way, but I'd love to ask you, do you think you got justice?

[00:24:16] Do you think the family got justice?

[00:24:18] What would justice look like?

[00:24:19] Yeah.

[00:24:20] Great question.

[00:24:24] On the basis of the law of the land, the argument could be yes, in as much as I went before a judge and a jury had to make a decision, guilty or not guilty.

[00:24:42] So it's not that I missed due process.

[00:24:45] Can you say it's very lenient?

[00:24:47] Yes, I can.

[00:24:50] Can you say it's fair?

[00:24:52] I could say no, it's not fair.

[00:24:56] So if I was to look at the judicial system, there's nothing that was skipped in the judicial system.

[00:25:00] What I would say is it was very, very, very lenient.

[00:25:05] Even the two years custodial that I went back to the Court of Appeal and they sent me inside for two years.

[00:25:10] That's very lenient for taking somebody's life.

[00:25:13] And the circumstances wasn't such that it wasn't provocation, it wasn't self-defense.

[00:25:20] There was some kind of mitigating circumstances, but very, very small.

[00:25:24] I think it was a different time.

[00:25:25] I can generally say that.

[00:25:27] You go back to the 1990s, if that was to happen now, and the profile of the individuals that were involved, the police, the soldier and whatnot, you'd probably get lifed off.

[00:25:36] But what I would say is what the jury did ask, and this is where I think it's really significant, where God steps in.

[00:25:47] The jury gave the judge a note.

[00:25:51] So once they said not guilty for man's law, this is unprecedented.

[00:25:54] There's a lot of divine things.

[00:25:56] They gave the judge a note and said, can you be lenient on him?

[00:26:00] That's never been done.

[00:26:02] Well, I'm saying it's never been done, not from my knowledge anyway.

[00:26:04] So when the judge was going through, he said this.

[00:26:07] He said, if I don't take into account the jury's requests or recommendations, they may come back with perverse decisions.

[00:26:16] And that's what he said, we sent you to two years probation.

[00:26:19] And it's funny because there's various different texts, obviously now becoming a minister and preaching,

[00:26:26] where actually Jesus stands in the gap and advocates for mercy, for humanity.

[00:26:32] So from a biblical side, it's God's mercy.

[00:26:37] From a natural side, it was justice, because I went through the due process.

[00:26:45] But was it fair?

[00:26:46] No.

[00:26:47] As in very, very lenient.

[00:26:50] And I've often put myself in that situation.

[00:26:52] If that was one of my children or one of my families, how would I feel?

[00:26:57] Now, obviously, with a Christian lens, anyone can say something different.

[00:26:59] I could turn around and say, well, look, you know, if they changed their lives, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:04] But it's easier said unless it's happened to you.

[00:27:08] But yeah, that would be my stance on it, because I've kind of grappled with that.

[00:27:12] But I just know it's God's mercy from beginning to end.

[00:27:14] I see it as God's story, not my story.

[00:27:16] Yeah, I think that's one of the things, isn't it?

[00:27:18] I think, and how God was at work in your life in terms of kind of sorting you out.

[00:27:25] Yeah.

[00:27:26] In that, you know, you can see how God was at work.

[00:27:28] And what we'd love to talk to you a little bit about is what you're doing now.

[00:27:31] So off the back of your story, your experiences, you now do an incredible work working with young men in similar situations to what you were in.

[00:27:41] Do you want to tell us a little bit about Spark to Life and, you know, how did it come about?

[00:27:48] Where did it come from?

[00:27:49] And what does that charity work now look like?

[00:27:52] Yeah, so it came about in 2005, 2006, similar to that police officer.

[00:27:58] And I agreed.

[00:28:00] First of all, I didn't, because I couldn't, because I was employed full time by the church as a youth pastor.

[00:28:04] They're quite a large youth ministry at that point and very outward looking, very much about engaging unchurched young people.

[00:28:14] And a lot of that was, again, with the radical story of transformation.

[00:28:17] So, you know, we'd get a lot of people that would come in that may be affiliated or associated with criminal activity and would respond to Christ.

[00:28:25] But it was at that time that the police officer turned around and said, well, look, would I go and speak in these schools in Wandsworth?

[00:28:30] And Walthamstown and Wandsworth, they both begin with W, but they're two ends of, two worlds completely travelling early morning to get to a school.

[00:28:37] You have to leave like six, something like that.

[00:28:40] But anyway, they come and they said, well, what would it cost?

[00:28:43] And they said, well, we'll pay you £10,000, £10,000, not £10,000, £10,000, and you can deliver X amount of sessions, blah, blah, blah.

[00:28:50] Then I thought, then they said, well, what are you going to call it?

[00:28:54] Because at that point, I'd done one session in the school because I was used to communicating and I knew how to manage the gospel message, but in a secular context.

[00:29:06] And it was amazing, actually, how close.

[00:29:09] I literally preached the gospel but just didn't do an article.

[00:29:13] That's it.

[00:29:14] And invariably, young people would ask me questions about Jesus.

[00:29:18] I do even talk about sometimes I got filled with the Holy Spirit and I'll explain what the Holy Spirit is.

[00:29:23] It's amazing.

[00:29:24] The police are sitting there, the teachers are there.

[00:29:25] Only once in probably hundreds of schools I've ever done, I've had one teacher come and say to me, it's a bit too much religion in it.

[00:29:33] Only once.

[00:29:34] I think it's how it's packaged.

[00:29:36] And so when they then said to me, well, look, we want to bring in the education department because we want to wrap it around and some follow-up sessions with specific groups of young people,

[00:29:47] that I had to think of a name and that's when I thought of Spark to Life, Shempositive and Relevant Keys to Life.

[00:29:52] And that was in 2006.

[00:29:53] But it was always part of a youth program, stroke youth ministry.

[00:29:56] But it was kind of, I didn't do anything with it apart from I always said I would never do it free.

[00:30:04] And part of the reason is because one, I didn't get to preach the gospel and do a response.

[00:30:10] Therefore, they're paying for the gift and the message.

[00:30:13] But then that means I could employ people who could continue the work and it wouldn't be based on me as a personality.

[00:30:18] That was the plan.

[00:30:20] So what I would then do is get young adults that was part of my youth program that had gone through some kind of development of leadership and sharing their testimonies and stories.

[00:30:29] But we wouldn't use the word testimony.

[00:30:31] We'd just talk about we've got to share our life story.

[00:30:34] I would always make it subjective.

[00:30:36] But what that would do is begin to invade secular space, what I believe with truth of the Christian message.

[00:30:41] And again, secular space will take up all day long.

[00:30:44] It's just how you package it.

[00:30:46] So what would happen?

[00:30:47] Then we would get contracts from schools.

[00:30:49] Then we'll get contracts from pupil referral units.

[00:30:52] Then we got contracts from youth offending teams for the hardest to reach.

[00:30:58] And it was in 2012 that I said, look, I don't feel a call to full-time pastoring, like leading a church.

[00:31:06] I'm more evangelistic.

[00:31:08] I'm more out there.

[00:31:09] And 2012 to 2014, I went part-time, done both the youth ministry in the church and then Spark to Life.

[00:31:17] And then I transitioned in 2014 full-time.

[00:31:20] And that's when I really began to put my energies in.

[00:31:23] And then so now where Spark to Life is at.

[00:31:25] So the context of it, it's one of the few black-led organizations that are involved in the criminal justice system that turns over more than a million.

[00:31:37] Which is, may not see, there's billions of pounds that go into the criminal justice system.

[00:31:42] It's disproportionately represented when it comes to prison incarceration, charges for drugs for young people specifically.

[00:31:50] And it's kind of Lammy Review is one of the reviews that was done in 2017 by David Lammy about disproportionality in the criminal justice system.

[00:31:58] Stop and search is highly overrepresented again with young black males specifically being stopped and searched, etc., etc.

[00:32:04] And so what I wanted to do was to speak truth to power, very much around social justice and racial justice.

[00:32:12] And because there's so few organizations that can do that with that cultural credibility,

[00:32:21] it was, we positioned ourselves like that.

[00:32:24] And so now we have 30 full-time workers.

[00:32:27] We work across eight boroughs in London.

[00:32:29] We turn over about 1.5 million.

[00:32:31] I sit on various different boards, some at local level, maybe government level,

[00:32:37] challenging them constructively as a critical friend around maybe their service delivery to certain communities within the criminal justice system.

[00:32:46] We do training around stop and search with the police in Walden Forest and Newham around being culturally competent.

[00:32:55] We do a parent champions group because we understand toxic stress,

[00:33:00] which can often be part of the cause of young people that their families are going through a lot.

[00:33:06] And this is referring back to my own.

[00:33:09] So as much as their child's going through a lot, it's about looking after the child.

[00:33:13] To be trauma-informed, you have to look at the whole family.

[00:33:17] So we really want to give voice to the parents.

[00:33:19] Because often when we sit in police meetings, one of the things they say,

[00:33:21] yet we hear the professionals, yet we look at the policies, yet we hear about the young person's voice.

[00:33:26] But where's the parents?

[00:33:27] Because often their voices are quite silenced for various different reasons because of the way the system's set up.

[00:33:32] Unless you're very articulate and you can advocate.

[00:33:35] Which, in all fairness, it's quite hard to do that unless you know the system.

[00:33:39] So we do stuff around that.

[00:33:40] We do a lot of training around community mentoring.

[00:33:42] So we have about 50 volunteer mentors across different parts of London at any given time

[00:33:47] that have been trained with an accreditation to go into schools and mentor children on the verge of being excluded.

[00:33:54] Because more often than not, exclusion from school is often the pipeline to prison.

[00:33:59] So when you go into young offenders or even you go into adults,

[00:34:01] the amount of them that was excluded from school is probably about 50%.

[00:34:06] But our main core business is what we would call therapeutic case work.

[00:34:12] And so we get referrals or we get contracts from youth offending teams and probation,

[00:34:16] about 200 at any one time, that would work with, or 250 shall I say,

[00:34:21] that will work with medium to high risk offenders.

[00:34:24] So that would be people that are known as prolific knife carriers,

[00:34:31] doing county lines, which is going out, selling drugs across the country.

[00:34:37] Also involved in selling drugs locally, involved in gangs,

[00:34:41] although that can be slightly sensationalised,

[00:34:43] but they do group offending or they may or may not be involved in gangs.

[00:34:47] They're the kind of individuals that they would refer to us.

[00:34:50] And more often than not, they'll be black or brown people

[00:34:53] because they would lack, this is the system, that ability to engage them

[00:34:58] because it's quite transactional and it's based on a licence

[00:35:02] and it's quite punitive.

[00:35:03] And so a lot of young people or young adults would shy away from that

[00:35:07] because they don't want to be informing

[00:35:09] and they're not always ready to change,

[00:35:11] which seems quite strange because you've been caught.

[00:35:14] And they're the individuals that we would work with.

[00:35:16] So we'd work for about 250 at one time across all these different contracts.

[00:35:20] And we still do schools work, so we'll go in and do a preventative approach

[00:35:24] around attitude, behaviour, mindset to try and challenge these young people

[00:35:28] in a positive way.

[00:35:29] It's definitely worth looking at Smart to Life's website.

[00:35:32] The stuff that you guys are doing is pretty amazing.

[00:35:34] It really is incredible and so well known across the borough and the area,

[00:35:40] which is incredible.

[00:35:43] Now, you only employ brown or black youth workers, is that right?

[00:35:48] Not necessarily, no.

[00:35:49] So we are, we kind of, what we would do is positive action.

[00:35:52] So because of the cohort, when often when you get in charity work,

[00:35:56] they encourage you to employ people that represent the people you work with.

[00:36:00] So we've been quite intentional about that.

[00:36:02] In the beginning, I think as we've evolved and we've got larger,

[00:36:08] what's quite interesting is our charity.

[00:36:10] So 95% of our staff are black or brown.

[00:36:14] All of our board are either black, African, Caribbean heritage,

[00:36:16] which again is very unique.

[00:36:18] But it's kind of shifting.

[00:36:20] So we now have two.

[00:36:25] One's actually from Greece.

[00:36:26] One's actually from Hungary.

[00:36:28] Females that work with us that are white.

[00:36:30] And our board members are going to begin to change.

[00:36:34] Because again, I don't want to get into the kind of nuances of

[00:36:38] what it's like to be a black-led charity

[00:36:41] in a space that there's very few.

[00:36:45] And there's again, I mean, you can look at anything

[00:36:48] regarding funding, how funding is distributed,

[00:36:51] the amount of people in the room that are of colour

[00:36:54] is very, very small.

[00:36:56] The higher you go, the less it becomes.

[00:36:58] And so we was told by Lord Michael Hastings,

[00:37:02] who's our patron,

[00:37:04] he came to our last away day

[00:37:06] and he looked at the board, he looked at me and he said,

[00:37:08] you need more white people.

[00:37:10] Now he's a black man.

[00:37:12] And he said, because you need allies.

[00:37:15] You need people that can open up doors.

[00:37:16] So as much as you can be thinking,

[00:37:18] oh, we're going to have a predominantly

[00:37:20] or full black African Caribbean heritage, blah, blah, blah.

[00:37:23] And this is because we're navigating secular space.

[00:37:26] So it's not a Christian stance.

[00:37:28] It's very much looking to navigate a space

[00:37:31] where there's very few people

[00:37:33] that look like the people they're talking about

[00:37:35] that are overrepresented.

[00:37:37] Can I ask you, what could we be praying for?

[00:37:41] I'm not sure many of us can get involved.

[00:37:44] We don't fit into that 95% of members of staff.

[00:37:47] But what could we be doing to champion

[00:37:49] and what can we be doing to pray?

[00:37:51] Okay.

[00:37:52] I'll say two things, just on that final point.

[00:37:55] Community volunteers, there's a real mix.

[00:37:59] The thing about mentors is it's not about

[00:38:03] what ethnicity you're from.

[00:38:05] Sometimes that's the door in.

[00:38:07] It's actually about relationship.

[00:38:09] We've found that over the years.

[00:38:12] And that's the lower level people that are involved

[00:38:15] because that's people in schools

[00:38:16] on the verge of being excluded.

[00:38:17] So one of the things you can pray for

[00:38:19] is more community mentors.

[00:38:21] And it's more about being culturally sensitive,

[00:38:23] which means we're aware of the differences,

[00:38:25] which is in every context, in all fairness.

[00:38:28] I think that's a key thing.

[00:38:29] I also think that God will open up doors, God's favor.

[00:38:33] One of the things is we need corporates

[00:38:38] to continue to fund the work we're doing.

[00:38:39] We class ourselves as faith-based,

[00:38:42] but not faith-biased.

[00:38:44] So the idea is that we have to speak the language.

[00:38:47] And this is where, and again,

[00:38:49] having been a leader of a church,

[00:38:51] quite a large church in East London,

[00:38:53] churches sometimes struggle to step into secular space

[00:38:56] because I think if they're not evangelizing

[00:38:59] and they're not preaching the gospel,

[00:39:01] then they're doing a disservice to the church.

[00:39:04] Therefore, it's quite separate.

[00:39:06] But I actually think there's a lot of synergy

[00:39:09] of what the church can do.

[00:39:11] I mean, your church is doing a lot

[00:39:12] in regards to being present in the community,

[00:39:15] which is really important to be that salt and light

[00:39:18] and that difference.

[00:39:19] And so I think one of the things to pray for

[00:39:21] is that we need allies that will financially support,

[00:39:26] but also open up doors

[00:39:27] so that we can have a bigger influence

[00:39:29] and a bigger impact across London.

[00:39:31] And we're really trying to focus on London.

[00:39:32] So they're the main divine appointments for spark to life

[00:39:36] with wealthy people.

[00:39:38] And also staff.

[00:39:40] It's very hard to get the right staff.

[00:39:42] And that's not an issue of colour in any way.

[00:39:45] What it is, it's about that cultural competence.

[00:39:48] In some ways, you have to be called to do it.

[00:39:51] Because if anyone's worked in the voluntary sector,

[00:39:55] you're not doing it because of money.

[00:39:57] I can tell you that.

[00:39:58] If you've ever been a minister,

[00:40:00] you're not doing it because of money.

[00:40:03] You know, you are Anglican.

[00:40:05] We're rolling in it.

[00:40:08] You're definitely not doing it because of that.

[00:40:09] You're doing it because you feel called.

[00:40:11] And so there is a sense of calling there.

[00:40:13] And if you're called, you know,

[00:40:15] there's this whole thing

[00:40:15] that people don't care how much you know.

[00:40:17] So people don't care how much you know.

[00:40:18] They want to know how much you care.

[00:40:20] And with this client group,

[00:40:22] especially people that are involved in criminal activity,

[00:40:25] some of them don't want to come out.

[00:40:29] And you've got a journey with them

[00:40:31] while they're still active

[00:40:33] on the view that you building that strong relationship,

[00:40:36] you can help them shift the dial

[00:40:39] and begin to come out of that lifestyle.

[00:40:42] Because a lot of them are broken.

[00:40:44] And a lot of them are caught up in a cycle

[00:40:46] where they're trapped

[00:40:47] and in a mindset where they're trapped.

[00:40:49] And so it gets quite spiritual.

[00:40:51] So yeah, please do pray for us for that.

[00:40:54] We'll certainly be doing that.

[00:40:55] As we come to land,

[00:40:58] can I just ask you,

[00:40:59] is there anything you sense the Lord saying to us?

[00:41:02] Is there anything that you,

[00:41:04] I think a lot of what you've been talking about tonight

[00:41:06] in terms of forgiveness,

[00:41:09] God's grace is quite powerful.

[00:41:11] I think for some of us,

[00:41:13] we may not have been in the dock,

[00:41:16] but actually knowing God's grace

[00:41:17] is really significant, isn't it?

[00:41:19] But is there anything else that you sense

[00:41:21] the Lord wants you to share with us this evening?

[00:41:25] Yeah, I think it's more for the church,

[00:41:28] for you, for yourself,

[00:41:30] and for the leadership here

[00:41:31] and for the vision here.

[00:41:32] One thing that I've realized

[00:41:34] when I look at Christendom,

[00:41:35] the church across the country,

[00:41:37] and I have the privilege sometimes

[00:41:38] to go around and speak,

[00:41:41] and I've seen how the church has struggled

[00:41:44] to impact community.

[00:41:47] Your church isn't struggling to do that,

[00:41:49] you're doing that,

[00:41:49] and you're wanting to do that.

[00:41:51] And what I would say is

[00:41:52] don't grow weary in well-doing,

[00:41:54] because I think often

[00:41:56] there's a desire from every leader.

[00:41:58] You want to see people's lives changed

[00:42:00] and transformed.

[00:42:02] And I would say continue to believe that,

[00:42:04] because that's where I believe

[00:42:05] breakthrough will come.

[00:42:07] You know, authentic people

[00:42:11] that don't know Jesus

[00:42:12] and they're coming to Jesus.

[00:42:13] There's a lot of transfer growth

[00:42:15] when you go around church.

[00:42:17] Do you know what that means?

[00:42:17] There's a lot of people move

[00:42:18] from one church to another.

[00:42:21] But when you're in a community

[00:42:22] and you're being sought in light,

[00:42:23] you're really praying and believing

[00:42:24] for change in lives.

[00:42:27] So when I walked into a church,

[00:42:28] I never knew anything about God.

[00:42:31] I thank God for those that do,

[00:42:32] but this is an evangelist's heart now.

[00:42:34] The worst thing is being called

[00:42:36] to speak at a church

[00:42:37] about Jesus and salvation,

[00:42:39] and it's full of people

[00:42:40] that are already saved.

[00:42:42] They're going to heaven.

[00:42:44] That's the worst.

[00:42:45] I love,

[00:42:46] and I don't say this to offend the church,

[00:42:48] but I hope the church would be like this.

[00:42:50] I prefer to be around unchurched people

[00:42:51] than church people.

[00:42:54] So Jesus said he's a friend of sinners.

[00:42:56] He'd prefer to be around people

[00:42:58] that don't know God.

[00:42:59] Because the people that know him,

[00:43:02] they're going to heaven.

[00:43:03] Now, we're all broken.

[00:43:04] We've got our issues.

[00:43:06] But unless you don't know

[00:43:08] Jesus Christ here tonight,

[00:43:10] and if you don't,

[00:43:11] you are so precious,

[00:43:13] and God loves you passionately.

[00:43:15] But if you do,

[00:43:17] you're going to heaven.

[00:43:19] If you're living for God,

[00:43:20] serving,

[00:43:21] praise the Lord.

[00:43:22] But you know the church

[00:43:23] has been set up for those that don't?

[00:43:25] To be that salt,

[00:43:26] that light,

[00:43:27] that shining place.

[00:43:28] And I think,

[00:43:28] I want to encourage this church

[00:43:30] to keep looking out,

[00:43:31] keep pressing in,

[00:43:33] keep pressing in,

[00:43:34] and let God give the breakthrough

[00:43:36] in Jesus' name in lives.

[00:43:38] And my final point on that is this.

[00:43:42] The fields are white onto harvest,

[00:43:45] but the laborers are few.

[00:43:49] Pray for more laborers.

[00:43:51] Pray for more people

[00:43:53] that want to reach lost people.

[00:43:56] So I think once that happens,

[00:43:59] that's the excitement

[00:44:00] of doing church in community.

[00:44:03] It's the stories of people

[00:44:04] coming through to Christ.

[00:44:08] Would you pray for that?

[00:44:09] So Nikki preached,

[00:44:10] those of us that were here

[00:44:11] two weeks ago,

[00:44:12] Nikki preached about the invite

[00:44:13] and how we have got to be

[00:44:15] the inviters

[00:44:17] sharing this incredible gospel.

[00:44:19] But it's really difficult

[00:44:20] with monotony,

[00:44:22] monotony of life,

[00:44:23] you know,

[00:44:23] life's busy,

[00:44:24] that what we end up doing

[00:44:25] is just squeezing out

[00:44:27] the evangelistic opportunities.

[00:44:29] I wonder if you'd pray for us

[00:44:30] in that.

[00:44:31] Can I invite you to stand

[00:44:32] if you're willing and able?

[00:44:36] And I'd love it

[00:44:36] if you would just pray for us

[00:44:37] and then we'll go into

[00:44:38] a little bit more worship.

[00:44:40] I will do.

[00:44:40] And I'm just going to share

[00:44:41] just quickly,

[00:44:42] and I'm going to pray,

[00:44:43] a scripture that God spoke to me

[00:44:46] when he said to me,

[00:44:46] I'm not going in prison,

[00:44:47] I'm going home.

[00:44:48] And it was in Matthew 9.

[00:44:50] It's Matthew 9.6.

[00:44:51] And this is the account

[00:44:53] when the friends

[00:44:55] brought the person

[00:44:56] paralyzed to Jesus

[00:44:57] but they couldn't get

[00:44:58] in the house.

[00:44:59] So they climbed on the roof

[00:45:00] and they removed the tiles.

[00:45:03] And they lowered

[00:45:05] this person that was paralyzed,

[00:45:08] literally disturbing

[00:45:09] the whole meeting

[00:45:10] before Jesus.

[00:45:12] And what Jesus done,

[00:45:14] he acknowledged

[00:45:14] the faith of the friends.

[00:45:16] He saw their faith.

[00:45:17] They couldn't carry

[00:45:18] this person anymore.

[00:45:19] They had to get

[00:45:20] this person to Jesus.

[00:45:22] I want to say to you

[00:45:23] and encourage you

[00:45:24] is that

[00:45:25] there's people that you know

[00:45:26] in your world,

[00:45:26] you can encourage them,

[00:45:29] you know,

[00:45:29] you can give them

[00:45:30] good counsel.

[00:45:32] But the transformation

[00:45:33] happens when you bring

[00:45:34] them to Jesus.

[00:45:36] That's when the miracle happens

[00:45:38] and that person's life

[00:45:39] got radically changed.

[00:45:41] They've done what they

[00:45:42] could never do before.

[00:45:43] They got up

[00:45:44] and they walked.

[00:45:45] It's transformative.

[00:45:47] So I want to encourage us,

[00:45:48] Lord,

[00:45:48] as we have friends,

[00:45:51] family,

[00:45:52] loved ones.

[00:45:53] And Lord God,

[00:45:54] we want to be a good Christian.

[00:45:56] We want to be there.

[00:45:57] And Lord,

[00:45:57] sometimes we pray,

[00:45:59] myself included,

[00:46:00] waiting for that opportunity.

[00:46:03] But Lord,

[00:46:04] I pray for a courageous spirit

[00:46:07] on this house,

[00:46:08] Lord God,

[00:46:08] that says,

[00:46:09] I'm not ashamed of the gospel.

[00:46:11] It's the power of God.

[00:46:12] The gospel

[00:46:13] is the power of God.

[00:46:14] It's God's power

[00:46:16] unto salvation

[00:46:17] to those

[00:46:18] that believe.

[00:46:20] So Lord,

[00:46:20] I pray that the move of God,

[00:46:22] the spirit of God

[00:46:23] will continue to work

[00:46:25] in this church,

[00:46:27] that there will be a burden

[00:46:28] whenever,

[00:46:30] as it were,

[00:46:31] the hand is taken

[00:46:33] away from the pulse

[00:46:34] and the pulse

[00:46:35] is lost people,

[00:46:36] that the burden

[00:46:37] will fall on the leadership.

[00:46:38] There'll be a groaning.

[00:46:40] There'll be a real sense

[00:46:41] of heaviness

[00:46:42] that we can fill

[00:46:44] your heart

[00:46:45] for the lost.

[00:46:46] We can fill

[00:46:47] your heart,

[00:46:48] Lord God,

[00:46:49] for those that don't know you.

[00:46:51] And that God,

[00:46:52] in Jesus' name,

[00:46:53] give us a glimpse

[00:46:54] of what you see

[00:46:55] when you look

[00:46:56] at these individuals

[00:46:57] in life,

[00:46:59] in society,

[00:47:01] walking up and down,

[00:47:02] going to work,

[00:47:03] going to school,

[00:47:04] going to college,

[00:47:05] and they don't know you.

[00:47:07] Lord,

[00:47:08] I pray,

[00:47:08] let us see

[00:47:09] what you see.

[00:47:10] Yes,

[00:47:10] Lord,

[00:47:11] we can love them.

[00:47:11] Yes,

[00:47:12] Lord,

[00:47:12] we can encourage people.

[00:47:14] But it's the gospel

[00:47:15] which is the power of God

[00:47:17] onto salvation.

[00:47:18] So Father,

[00:47:19] I pray a fresh move

[00:47:20] of God in this house

[00:47:21] concerning the gospel

[00:47:22] that we will be reminded

[00:47:24] again of its power,

[00:47:26] of its transformative power,

[00:47:27] and it will create

[00:47:28] an excitement

[00:47:29] amongst those

[00:47:31] that gather

[00:47:32] of people

[00:47:33] turning to Jesus,

[00:47:34] sharing their testimonies,

[00:47:35] hearing of the baptism

[00:47:36] that's coming,

[00:47:37] Lord.

[00:47:38] Let that be a time

[00:47:39] of breakthrough

[00:47:40] a real time

[00:47:41] of overflow

[00:47:42] and celebration

[00:47:44] of the greatest miracle

[00:47:46] of all,

[00:47:46] which is salvation

[00:47:48] in Jesus' name.

[00:47:50] Amen.