225. It Turns Out People Are Far More Interested In Jesus Than You Think. Interview With Dr Rachel Jordan-Wolf.

[00:00:08] Friends, massive warm welcome to Making Disciples, the podcast that explores all the different topics on discipleship.

[00:00:15] My name is Cris Rogers and I am your host. And today's episode is super exciting. You're going to love this.

[00:00:20] We're going to move into it pretty quick because it's an interview with Dr Rachel Jordan-Wolf.

[00:00:26] She works with Hope, Hope Together, where she's the executive director.

[00:00:34] And she's done a piece of research which is now available called Talking Jesus.

[00:00:39] And it's a piece of research looking at how interested are individuals in the UK in hearing a Christian talk about Christianity.

[00:00:48] Now, many of us would say, actually, it's really hard to talk about our faith. People are not interested.

[00:00:53] They're closed. They're critical. The research that she's done looking at the UK is just spectacular.

[00:01:02] So what it does is it explores how willing are people to hear from a Christian that they know, a friend, family member,

[00:01:11] how willing are they to hear about the gospel, about Jesus.

[00:01:16] And it's staggering. The research is staggering.

[00:01:19] People are far more willing and wanting to hear about Jesus than what you and I think.

[00:01:26] We can often feel like people are closed and they're disinterested.

[00:01:30] Interested. But actually, that's not what the research found out.

[00:01:33] So I'm going to spend a bit of time talking with Rachel about this research.

[00:01:37] And she's going to give us the statistics, the numbers, the data that just shows us how interested people are.

[00:01:42] And friends, the response that I'm looking for in us is a real sense of growing confidence

[00:01:49] that what we have got to share, people are wanting to hear it.

[00:01:53] And sometimes we have lost confidence in the gospel, we've lost confidence in Jesus.

[00:01:57] We've lost confidence in talking about our faith because we think we now live in a secular society people don't want to hear.

[00:02:03] Actually, friends, that's not the case.

[00:02:06] People do want to hear and they are really open to hearing Christians talk about credible Christians talking about their faith.

[00:02:13] So my hope is this builds confidence for you.

[00:02:17] Now, if you want to see more on this talking Jesus research, I'll put it in the show notes so you can go find it straight after the podcast.

[00:02:24] But what I would love to ask you to do out of all the episodes that we put out, share the episode, show it to somebody else and say,

[00:02:31] look, isn't this amazing? People want to hear this.

[00:02:34] This should build our confidence.

[00:02:35] You know, we should all be more thrilled and more excited about sharing our faith off the back of this research.

[00:02:41] So share it, build that confidence in somebody else.

[00:02:44] So let's jump in as we spend this time talking with Rachel Jordan-Wolf about the Talking Jesus research.

[00:03:01] Rachel Jordan-Wolf, welcome to Making Disciples.

[00:03:04] Thank you so much for spending time with me.

[00:03:06] How are you doing today?

[00:03:08] Doing great, Chris.

[00:03:09] And it's fantastic to come and join you.

[00:03:11] Although we're not far like, you know, we're doing this as a recording.

[00:03:15] We're actually not.

[00:03:15] We're just up and down the road from each other, really, aren't we?

[00:03:18] Yeah, which is how we really connected on what we're going to talk about today.

[00:03:23] You and I were both at the same conference recently.

[00:03:27] You were sharing some data around evangelism.

[00:03:30] And I just thought, oh, we've got to get Rachel on to share this data because it's so confidence building for all of us.

[00:03:38] That's certainly what I thought on the day is this is really building confidence.

[00:03:42] I don't know if that's been your experience with your research.

[00:03:46] Yeah, it's its main thing.

[00:03:48] And that's why I love it.

[00:03:49] It's just everywhere it goes, people go, oh, like there's this real, you know, the light bulb moment.

[00:03:55] So people have a real light bulb moment.

[00:03:57] And the light bulb moment means that they realise that there is a great opportunity now for evangelism.

[00:04:02] And it gives them confidence.

[00:04:03] And there's confidence in the data that helps people go, wow, actually, yes, we should be doing this.

[00:04:09] So, yeah, it's a confidence thing.

[00:04:11] And it really inspires people to go out there and share their faith.

[00:04:14] Well, I'm going to ask you about that in a minute.

[00:04:16] But before we get there, hope together.

[00:04:19] Yes.

[00:04:20] Tell us about hope together.

[00:04:20] So we are a charity with our whole heart is that everyone everywhere would know Jesus, which I'm sure is everyone who's listening's heart as well.

[00:04:30] And we love to help local churches to do this through research that helps us to work out what would be a good way forward in mission and evangelism.

[00:04:40] And to produce resources that then, if you like, fall out of the back of the research.

[00:04:44] And we love it when people work in a united way in every new given area or place to get the wonderful good news of Jesus out.

[00:04:52] So that's what we're all about is resourcing and equipping particularly local churches to work in a united way in missionary evangelism.

[00:05:00] What's the most exciting thing you've seen recently in the work that you're doing with hope together?

[00:05:03] Oh, just had a really amazing video.

[00:05:06] We're going to let it out really soon from Clyde in Cumbra.

[00:05:10] You won't mind me mentioning him.

[00:05:11] And so I was speaking on Talking Jesus, as I do.

[00:05:15] I was over in New Wine, Wales.

[00:05:17] I've been doing quite a lot in Wales.

[00:05:19] It's been really interesting.

[00:05:20] And Clyde was there and he listened.

[00:05:22] And the Bible comes out really strongly through this research.

[00:05:26] And we created, we have a bespoke, beautiful, contemporary Marx gospel.

[00:05:32] So Clyde being kind, he was great.

[00:05:34] He ordered a thousand copies of this gospel and he went out on the streets in August in Cumbra, which is Wales.

[00:05:40] And, you know, all these Bibles have gone out.

[00:05:42] They've had amazing conversations.

[00:05:44] They've had people come to Alpha.

[00:05:46] They've been able to pray for people.

[00:05:47] They've had it all.

[00:05:48] His video is wonderful.

[00:05:50] And so just being a part of that, seeing if you like the join up from just what you said, this research, giving people a light bulb moment and them going, OK, we need to do this.

[00:06:00] It's having the confidence, going out there, taking our Marx gospel, taking a thousand copies to Cumbra and just letting the people of Cumbra know about Jesus.

[00:06:09] That is like, that's where it's just the dream because it all comes together.

[00:06:13] And you see the extraordinary stories that come back.

[00:06:17] Yeah, brilliant.

[00:06:18] Hey, well, you know, we're referencing this magical data that you've been doing.

[00:06:23] So you've been doing a piece of research.

[00:06:25] In fact, it's not the first time this piece of research has been done talking Jesus.

[00:06:29] So what's the history of this research that you've been doing?

[00:06:33] Great.

[00:06:33] So we in 2015 and we I was working at that point.

[00:06:37] I worked for the Church of England and I was their mission evangelism advisor.

[00:06:40] And we were going to do I was working with hope at that time, hope together and with the Evangelical Alliance.

[00:06:46] We were going to have this denominational leaders summit.

[00:06:48] Doesn't it sound grand?

[00:06:49] And we're all going to get together and we're going to put evangelism back at the heart of the church.

[00:06:53] And I was like, the problem with these, I've been to many of those kind of meetings.

[00:06:56] You probably have two, Chris, in your time.

[00:06:59] And then we all come along and everyone swaps their anecdote.

[00:07:01] You know, the person they met on the bus last week, what's happening in their church.

[00:07:05] And then from those stories, we extrapolate into strategy.

[00:07:09] And I'm like, oh, look, I'm so could we just do some research that would help us understand the landscape of the UK for evangelism.

[00:07:19] And then if we bring the research from that, could we build a strategy?

[00:07:23] And they're like, you think we could do that?

[00:07:25] I'm like, yeah, we could do that.

[00:07:26] So loved it.

[00:07:27] They said yes.

[00:07:28] So we went off and we went to it's a non-Christian company.

[00:07:32] It was a Christian company, I think, of Richie, but it's Savannah Comrades now works out there with everybody from the government, hospitals.

[00:07:38] If you were the NHS, you'd go there to get some some understanding of the UK, UK landscape, say, on a particular type of medicine.

[00:07:45] So we went along as Christians to say this is what we're looking for.

[00:07:49] I helped build the survey.

[00:07:51] And so we did this research originally in 2015.

[00:07:53] We were helped by Barna as well.

[00:07:55] And we did this this research project and we took it back into the Denominational Leaders Summit.

[00:08:00] We had to then redo it on a bigger sample because do you know what?

[00:08:04] Those leaders were so shocked by the results.

[00:08:07] They didn't believe them.

[00:08:08] So we had to then do it again on a wider sample.

[00:08:11] And then people have begun to believe it.

[00:08:13] And it's had it's been a confidence changer when it comes to mission evangelism.

[00:08:18] And then we redid it in 2022 with an even wider group of partners.

[00:08:22] So it was a hope, the EA, CV Global, Alpha, Kingsgate Community Church and Lewis Palau.

[00:08:27] We did it together.

[00:08:28] All of those people helped fund it.

[00:08:30] I wrote the report, analyzed the data.

[00:08:32] And it's been even more encouraging in 2022 than it was in 2015.

[00:08:38] It's certainly when you shared it at the experiential conference, it certainly was really confidence building.

[00:08:45] You could hear in the room this murmuring of just joy and excitement.

[00:08:50] I mean, what could you know, what does this entail?

[00:08:52] And, you know, we're London centric.

[00:08:54] So we were thinking about in terms of tube trains, how many people on a tube train might actually end up believing in the resurrection from the data.

[00:09:04] It was quite exciting.

[00:09:05] So why don't you talk to us about this research?

[00:09:08] Talking Jesus, what were the big headlines?

[00:09:11] Let's start there.

[00:09:12] What were the big headlines that you drew from the data that is just really exciting for the church?

[00:09:19] OK, so we'll start with just one of the pieces of data that actually resonated with the census.

[00:09:27] So we had a big census across this country and we were ready before that, which is, you know, actually at the time, the headlines were like, oh, doom and gloom, doom and gloom.

[00:09:36] And it's that we had dropped down to under 50 percent of the country who were saying that they were Christian.

[00:09:40] So we could all, you know, and then we look at doom and gloom.

[00:09:44] We dropped down, you know, Christianity, only 48 percent of the country Christian.

[00:09:48] But what we had done already in 2015 and then re-measured in 22 is we'd measured how many people were what we thought were active and practicing Christians.

[00:09:58] These are people we might you and I would look at as part of the team to go out there with the great good news of Jesus.

[00:10:04] So we wanted a measure of team, not just a measure of people who tick Christian, because you and I know 48 percent of the population.

[00:10:11] I don't know if they're in your church on Sunday, Chris, but they're certainly not in ours.

[00:10:16] So instead, we needed a measure of actually what was happening for the team.

[00:10:19] And we discovered that six percent of the population in the country are practicing Christian.

[00:10:25] And you might go, wow, that's a massive drop.

[00:10:27] And that's because we looked at three things.

[00:10:28] We measured people's attendance and whether or not they were part of a worshipping community.

[00:10:33] We measured whether they were praying regularly and whether they were reading their Bibles.

[00:10:38] And when you put reading your Bible in, that's when actually a lot of people are, you know, who might be ticking Christian art.

[00:10:44] And in fact, there are some people who tick Christian who never even pray.

[00:10:47] So that that measure of the church is not whether someone ticks Christian.

[00:10:52] Instead, this can be a solid measure that we can keep tracking over time.

[00:10:56] And the extraordinary good news in 2022 is that that group has not gone down.

[00:11:02] So the Church of Jesus Christ is not in decline.

[00:11:05] Cultural Christianity is in decline, whether somebody would just tick their Christian.

[00:11:10] Less people in the younger generations than the older generations tick that they are Christian as I'm a cultural Christian.

[00:11:16] But as many people in the younger generations as in the older generations are in that category of practicing Christian for their percentage in the population.

[00:11:25] So the Church of Jesus Christ is not in decline in the UK.

[00:11:30] And it's holding up again, like across the age spectrum.

[00:11:35] So therefore, the team for mission evangelism, that's the first point of good news, is strong and stable.

[00:11:41] How exciting is that?

[00:11:42] We're not in decline, Chris.

[00:11:44] That is super exciting.

[00:11:45] I love it.

[00:11:45] You know, you've got the attendance, praying and Bible.

[00:11:47] I mean, just interestingly, it would have been fun to have had this data back in the 80s and seeing the difference between the 80s and now.

[00:11:56] That would have been really interesting.

[00:11:58] But it's certainly been our experience here that church attendance is up.

[00:12:03] Church is growing.

[00:12:04] Church is growing.

[00:12:05] But that sense of cultural Christianity is definitely what's in decline.

[00:12:10] And I'm not worried about that.

[00:12:11] In fact, I'm quite happy for cultural Christianity to decline because actually it wasn't helping me share the gospel.

[00:12:16] Because there were so many people who thought they understood or thought they knew or thought they were a Christian that then you're having to get past this hurdle before you can even get to sharing the gospel.

[00:12:27] Because you have to convince them, well, actually, there's more than what you think.

[00:12:30] But actually, it's certainly to be true where we are in East London, where church is growing.

[00:12:36] Now, that's not everywhere.

[00:12:37] We know that.

[00:12:38] But certainly that's been our experience.

[00:12:41] That's really interesting.

[00:12:42] Six percent of the UK would describe themselves as practicing Christians.

[00:12:47] Well, they wouldn't describe themselves, if you like.

[00:12:49] So we measured them.

[00:12:51] We as the talking to you, we would describe them.

[00:12:53] And that stayed steady.

[00:12:54] So it's like we would describe.

[00:12:56] Actually, if you asked people, a lot more people would say they're practicing Christians.

[00:12:58] So we were a tougher measure than actually what people themselves would say.

[00:13:03] So, yeah, we've got stronger levels of, you know, whether they're practicing.

[00:13:09] And that's because we actually wanted to look at practice.

[00:13:12] Yeah.

[00:13:13] Great.

[00:13:13] Carry on then.

[00:13:14] What else?

[00:13:14] So that's great.

[00:13:15] So that's a really good start.

[00:13:16] And it stays steady.

[00:13:17] And that's like across the UK.

[00:13:19] And obviously, in this data, we could drop in and see what's happening in different parts of the country.

[00:13:24] But that's from the chat.

[00:13:25] So that's number one.

[00:13:26] And then we looked at, we'll do a few more little highlights.

[00:13:29] We looked at sort of what people thought about Jesus.

[00:13:33] About 20% of the population would think that he was God in human form.

[00:13:37] About 25% would just say he was a normal human being.

[00:13:41] But, you know, 33% of the UK population think that Jesus is a prophet or a spiritual leader.

[00:13:47] Now, I don't know if you remember the little hinge passage in the middle of Mark's Gospel.

[00:13:52] You know, when Jesus asks Peter, who do people say I am?

[00:13:55] And do you know what?

[00:13:56] That's very similar to this.

[00:13:58] People say Elijah, John the Baptist, a prophet.

[00:14:01] That's who, even when Jesus was on earth, there was a huge group of people who thought he's something, but I haven't quite worked out who yet.

[00:14:08] And then it's Peter who says, you know, and then he's all about you.

[00:14:11] And he says, you're the Messiah.

[00:14:12] So he's, if you like, he's got to the top click.

[00:14:16] But it actually shows that in the UK, people are not like, they're not anti-Jesus.

[00:14:21] We've not got masses of people who are atheists.

[00:14:23] And again, we can see that from the data.

[00:14:25] We've got a lot of people sort of in this middle ground.

[00:14:28] And then this is a lot higher than the Muslim population.

[00:14:32] The Muslim population of the country would get to be at like 5%, 6%.

[00:14:36] There's a lot of people who just think Jesus, he's somebody interesting.

[00:14:41] He's a prophet.

[00:14:42] He's a spiritual leader.

[00:14:44] But again, when we're out there doing mission evangelism, that means that person's a lot closer to us.

[00:14:49] We can ask them, have you ever read the words of this prophet?

[00:14:52] What do you think about these things that he said?

[00:14:54] Oh, do you know he said this or that?

[00:14:56] He said he's the light of the world.

[00:14:57] Do you need any light in your life?

[00:14:59] And would you like some of that?

[00:15:01] And here's this amazing copy of his life that you could read.

[00:15:05] So basically what it shows us is it's beginning to show us the mission field is closer.

[00:15:10] They also think that Jesus is a wise, spiritual, loving leader.

[00:15:17] I mean, do we need any of those in our society right now?

[00:15:21] So Jesus actually, even like for what people are looking for,

[00:15:24] people are often, they want wise, loving, you know, spiritual leadership.

[00:15:29] That is how the UK population would describe Jesus.

[00:15:33] So you suddenly realise if you put that together, you, when you, you can actually,

[00:15:38] one of the things to do is to ask someone, not assume they're an atheist, they don't like Jesus,

[00:15:43] but actually find out what they think about Jesus.

[00:15:46] Because I think when we talk to our friends and people about Jesus' family or somebody

[00:15:51] that we've met somewhere on the streets or the tube, we would discover this,

[00:15:55] if you like, this connection that they're not as far away as we think.

[00:15:59] So that's another thing that comes up in this research is people are not as far away from us as we think.

[00:16:05] Do you ever find that when you're, when you're talking to people, Chris?

[00:16:07] Oh, completely. I think, you know, that's one of the joys of working in East London,

[00:16:11] though, where you're surrounded by, by Muslims.

[00:16:13] Faith is the conversation on the street all the time.

[00:16:17] You know, and often people will say, you know, you keep, you keep faith private, politics private.

[00:16:22] On the streets of East London, it's just there.

[00:16:24] And it's in the everyday. People are talking about faith.

[00:16:28] Faith is a part of everyday life.

[00:16:30] So, yeah, I've certainly found that.

[00:16:32] I'm really interested by your atheists.

[00:16:34] You know, what percentage would say that they're atheists?

[00:16:36] Because my experience feels like that's been in decline

[00:16:40] or there's been a little bit of embarrassment within the atheist community.

[00:16:45] So, you know, what's the changes there?

[00:16:47] Yeah, so about 12% of the population are atheists.

[00:16:52] And it's actually the growing group is a group of people who would just say,

[00:16:56] I'm none of these things.

[00:16:58] So it's not, atheism isn't really the big growing group.

[00:17:02] It's almost like that's too strong for people.

[00:17:05] They're just kind of like in the group, you know, shrugging the shoulders.

[00:17:09] I don't really know group.

[00:17:11] So that's the growth.

[00:17:13] And if you look at the younger age demographic, again, the no religion group,

[00:17:19] that's kind of where they would be.

[00:17:21] There's a rise.

[00:17:22] There's less people ticking that they're Christian.

[00:17:24] And when you're working with the younger generations,

[00:17:26] there's more people just saying, I'm just none of these things.

[00:17:29] I'm kind of I'm not a religious person, I think is what they're saying.

[00:17:32] But we know from other research done by CEOs

[00:17:36] that a third of that group who say they're none of the above

[00:17:38] would be spiritually open.

[00:17:40] Yeah.

[00:17:41] So if they're not saying no, like an atheist,

[00:17:44] they're kind of just saying, don't really know.

[00:17:47] The shift.

[00:17:48] I think there's been a shift in the last 15 years

[00:17:50] away from people being very black and white and saying,

[00:17:54] I'm atheist to this, you know, much more open.

[00:17:57] And I, I'm not going to name them.

[00:18:00] A particular person that I know, scientist, thinker, engineer,

[00:18:06] they're into technology.

[00:18:07] They're into kind of the big thinky space.

[00:18:11] And 15 years ago, they would have said that they were clearly an atheist.

[00:18:15] And something has changed in the last 10 years where now they're saying,

[00:18:20] well, actually, I'm not, I'm not there.

[00:18:23] I'm not so closed that I'm not willing to open my mind to anything else.

[00:18:29] And they've moved into this place of saying, well, I'm, I'm, I'm agnostic.

[00:18:33] I can't prove anything.

[00:18:35] Like my, my science doesn't prove there isn't a God as much as science doesn't prove there is a God.

[00:18:40] So I'm moving to a place of being open more.

[00:18:42] And I find that really interesting.

[00:18:45] It just feels, I love your language just now of people are closer than you think.

[00:18:49] I feel like there's been a shift where people are moving closer to,

[00:18:53] could there be a God than probably where they were 15, 20 years ago.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:18:59] And that's why we want to keep doing this research.

[00:19:02] Another thing that we found that you're going to love is we looked at the resurrection.

[00:19:06] And we discovered that 16% of the UK population believe word for word that Jesus rose from the dead.

[00:19:13] But there's this further 29%.

[00:19:15] They kind of believe to some level.

[00:19:17] So they were saying they believe in the resurrection.

[00:19:20] They believe that some of the content, some of the content they're a bit unsure about,

[00:19:25] but, but if you like, they, they're kind of in, they're just not fully in.

[00:19:29] They're not fully sure.

[00:19:30] So there's 16% who are completely certain.

[00:19:33] 29%, not 100% sure, but they're certainly not saying no.

[00:19:38] And it's actually only 41% who say they don't believe.

[00:19:42] And I find that really intriguing that it's only 41% who don't believe.

[00:19:47] And interestingly, it's like the, the, the younger generation are probably just,

[00:19:53] just slightly more open than the, than the like older generation on this.

[00:19:58] Just slightly more, not, not massively.

[00:20:00] But if you like, there's more younger generation who are like kind of in that,

[00:20:04] I think I believe category than the, than the, I don't believe.

[00:20:07] So there's a few more in the younger generation who do believe than in the old generation.

[00:20:11] So that again, what I'm saying is it's not a trend.

[00:20:14] I think people felt the more, the more time went on,

[00:20:18] less and less people would believe in something like the resurrection of Jesus,

[00:20:21] but that is not what we're seeing.

[00:20:23] So, so, you know, the younger generation, there is as many younger generation who believe in the,

[00:20:28] believe in the resurrection of Jesus as, as older generation.

[00:20:32] And even in that middle, that middle category of, I think I kind of believe category,

[00:20:37] there is as many.

[00:20:39] So this is not like, Hey, this is all on the way out because as we go through progressive generations,

[00:20:45] we're going to have less and less belief.

[00:20:47] That isn't actually what's happening.

[00:20:48] And again, can you imagine what a great conversation there's 29% of the population to have a chat with

[00:20:56] about the incredibleness of the resurrection of Jesus.

[00:21:00] They're not saying no.

[00:21:01] They're like, Oh, quite like to know more.

[00:21:04] You know, they're on that scale.

[00:21:06] They're on that openness.

[00:21:07] So they're again, they're way more open than we think.

[00:21:10] And I think what we do is we sit in church on Sunday and we have a perception that everybody

[00:21:15] out there is they're all atheists.

[00:21:18] They're far, far away from us.

[00:21:20] They've made their mind up.

[00:21:21] They're a no, they're antagonistic.

[00:21:23] That just isn't the case.

[00:21:25] I would, you know, you might want a pint or we want a cup of tea with one of those people

[00:21:29] in the 29%.

[00:21:31] And they're with us.

[00:21:32] They're on the buses.

[00:21:32] They're on the tubes that they live as next door neighbors in our villages and towns.

[00:21:38] How extraordinary.

[00:21:39] Yeah.

[00:21:40] So this is, this is what I thought was really interesting when you shared this data with

[00:21:43] us.

[00:21:43] So if we say 29% say there's something of the resurrection that they're interested in.

[00:21:48] Yeah.

[00:21:48] They actually ticked.

[00:21:50] I believe.

[00:21:51] They actually ticked.

[00:21:51] I believe.

[00:21:52] So 44% of 44% of the population did tick.

[00:21:56] I believe 16% word for word, 29% with a wobble fan.

[00:22:00] But they were willing to say, I believe that's 44% of the UK population.

[00:22:04] So yeah.

[00:22:04] Think about, you're right.

[00:22:05] We're going to do that little thing.

[00:22:06] We might do a bus, a tube, a village, a town.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:11] Can you imagine 40% of a bus that you are on potentially believes in the resurrection

[00:22:15] of Jesus.

[00:22:16] And yet you sit there feeling like you are the only one.

[00:22:21] You sit in your office block and you feel like you are the only one.

[00:22:25] Or you might know Christine that's across the corridor.

[00:22:28] Actually, 44% are saying they believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

[00:22:35] That has to change the conversations that you have in your workplace.

[00:22:40] Surely.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:41] Surely, surely, surely.

[00:22:42] Who are they?

[00:22:44] I want to know.

[00:22:44] Exactly.

[00:22:45] I want to stand on the bus and go, raise your hand if you believe in the resurrection of

[00:22:48] Jesus.

[00:22:48] I want to see who the 44% hand goes up.

[00:22:52] Yeah.

[00:22:52] Because that's a heck of a lot of people.

[00:22:54] Yeah.

[00:22:54] It was this stat in particular that when we took it to those denominational, they just

[00:22:59] looked at us aghast.

[00:23:01] I mean, they were in shock.

[00:23:02] They were like, this cannot be true, Rachel.

[00:23:04] I remember it.

[00:23:05] And so, but the bizarre thing is the BBC did a very similar survey.

[00:23:09] They used Savannah Comrades in 2017.

[00:23:12] And it was exactly the same result.

[00:23:14] And so they had this result because they were looking, I don't know, yeah, they were looking

[00:23:19] for a headline about Easter.

[00:23:21] And they expected, they were expecting more people to believe in reincarnation than resurrection.

[00:23:27] And this is that they got the same stat.

[00:23:29] Unfortunately, they didn't put it in as a big headline because it would have been an amazing

[00:23:32] headline for Easter Sunday in 2017.

[00:23:36] They put in something else.

[00:23:37] But they found the same result.

[00:23:39] So it's not just us.

[00:23:40] It's not because we're Christian and we went off to find this result that we found this

[00:23:43] result.

[00:23:44] We found it.

[00:23:45] The BBC found it.

[00:23:46] I mean, it's jaw dropping.

[00:23:49] It's jaw dropping, Chris.

[00:23:50] So what we're saying here is numerically, the church isn't in decline.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:57] We might be losing those on the edges that were lukewarm.

[00:24:02] But actually, the church is still present.

[00:24:05] We're saying that people believe in God.

[00:24:09] There's a huge chunk of the population that say they believe in God in terms of Jesus being

[00:24:15] God and in being a spiritual leader.

[00:24:18] So at least half the population believe that Jesus was some form of spiritual leader or he

[00:24:23] was God, which is quite amazing.

[00:24:25] It's amazing, really, isn't it?

[00:24:25] We're not even debating the history there.

[00:24:29] People are saying, I believe in this guy.

[00:24:31] I might not believe he's God, but I believe he exists.

[00:24:34] So at least there's that sense.

[00:24:36] But 20% believe he's God.

[00:24:37] And then when it comes down to the resurrection, we're saying that 44% of the population of the

[00:24:44] UK believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

[00:24:46] This is huge numbers, isn't it?

[00:24:48] It's so enormous and it's so exciting.

[00:24:53] And there's something about the fact that we as the church are just, we sat in our bubble

[00:24:59] and we've perceived out there as different.

[00:25:02] And that's what this research is all about.

[00:25:04] It's changing our perception as to what is the real reality.

[00:25:08] And that's what great research does.

[00:25:09] I mean, this changed me.

[00:25:10] This research changed me.

[00:25:12] I was not expecting these results.

[00:25:14] I looked at them and went, what?

[00:25:16] So, you know, and that's why it has that impact everywhere we go.

[00:25:20] So that's a bit of like what they're thinking.

[00:25:23] Which also then explains, because we discovered in this research, what happens when you and I

[00:25:27] I chat to one of them.

[00:25:28] Yeah, let's go for it.

[00:25:29] So, you know, they know us.

[00:25:31] So we know that 53% of the non-Christians.

[00:25:33] So now we can break this down in two brackets.

[00:25:36] There's two mission fields out there.

[00:25:38] There's the people who are non-Christian.

[00:25:40] So that's the none of the above, atheist, other religions.

[00:25:44] And then there are the people who are non-practicing Christians.

[00:25:47] There's two different sort of mission fields.

[00:25:49] But the non-Christians who, if you like, are furthest away, 53% of them in the UK know

[00:25:54] one of us.

[00:25:55] So, you know, these are the people in your workplace or they are in your book club and

[00:26:00] they know you.

[00:26:01] And they know us really well.

[00:26:03] They know us as family and friend.

[00:26:05] So that means before we've even started a mission outreach project, 53% of all the non-Christians

[00:26:11] in the UK already know somebody like you or me.

[00:26:13] And they know us really well, family and friend.

[00:26:16] And what's more, Chris, they really like us.

[00:26:18] Yeah, tell us more about that.

[00:26:19] Yeah, they think we are our top characteristics.

[00:26:22] 62% is friendly.

[00:26:24] Then it's caring.

[00:26:26] And then it's good, humid and generous.

[00:26:29] I mean, hey, look at us.

[00:26:31] Of course we are.

[00:26:32] But do you know that one?

[00:26:33] That stat has been staggering in churches and places and conferences because people suddenly

[00:26:38] literally sit up in their chair.

[00:26:41] They gain confidence.

[00:26:42] They go, what?

[00:26:43] What, people like us?

[00:26:44] And I'm like, yeah, they really like you.

[00:26:46] Of course they do when you think about it logically.

[00:26:48] But again, I think we've thought about the average portrayal, if a Christian is there at all,

[00:26:54] in like some of the, say, sitcoms or, you know, Netflix series that we've watched.

[00:27:00] And the Christian is not always portrayed as the friendly, caring, good, humored and generous person.

[00:27:05] And therefore we perceive that when we tell someone we're a Christian, they're just going

[00:27:09] to think we're the weird, narrow-minded, judgmental, odd person.

[00:27:12] But actually, that's just, again, it's not true.

[00:27:17] So the truth is that we are known.

[00:27:19] We know, we're known really well and we are liked.

[00:27:23] Wow.

[00:27:24] See, most of us think that it's embarrassing to be a Christian and people, you know, will think you're a little bit odd.

[00:27:31] But actually, to hear those statistics that we're liked, people like us.

[00:27:35] And it's family, you know, yeah.

[00:27:36] You know what you just said about friends and family.

[00:27:39] You know, these are people that we live our daily lives with, aren't they?

[00:27:44] People that are around us.

[00:27:45] That's amazing.

[00:27:46] It's amazing.

[00:27:47] And then, so we have a chat.

[00:27:49] So, you know, we talked to this person.

[00:27:51] So 55% of those non-Christians have had a conversation with someone like you or me.

[00:27:55] So that's a really good start.

[00:27:56] We have talked to them about the Christian faith.

[00:27:59] Now, if they don't, in that conversation, come to faith.

[00:28:01] Because if they'd come to faith, they'd then be answering the survey as a Christian.

[00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Okay.

[00:28:07] So these are people who've had a conversation with us but have chosen to remain a non-Christian.

[00:28:11] It's really fun to look at, really amazing, to look at what their response is.

[00:28:16] 75% of them were super comfortable in that conversation.

[00:28:18] They weren't like, oh my word, please stop talking.

[00:28:21] They were comfortable.

[00:28:22] So that means we're doing a really good job.

[00:28:24] We're just, you know, we're being normal.

[00:28:27] 33% of them wanted to know more about Jesus.

[00:28:31] And they were like, oh, Rachel.

[00:28:32] What was that?

[00:28:32] What percentage?

[00:28:33] 33.

[00:28:34] 33% more.

[00:28:36] So you might think, wow, that's not everybody.

[00:28:38] It isn't.

[00:28:38] It wasn't even the time of Jesus or the Apostle Paul.

[00:28:41] But that's like one in three.

[00:28:43] Yeah.

[00:28:44] That's massive.

[00:28:45] And they actually did.

[00:28:46] This isn't spirituality.

[00:28:47] This isn't peace.

[00:28:48] This isn't like I want to.

[00:28:50] All of the survey was around the person of Jesus.

[00:28:53] I want to know what are they interested in Jesus?

[00:28:56] Because that's what really matters.

[00:28:58] So 33% of the UK, after the people who know of non-Christians, who know a Christian, having had a conversation with a Christian, they want to know about Jesus.

[00:29:06] And 36% of them were open to an experience or encounter with Jesus Christ.

[00:29:12] Isn't that just like that's so mind-blowingly amazing.

[00:29:16] So again, it's just over one in three of people who actually want to experience him or know him.

[00:29:23] Like, can we get better than that for when we're like thinking of going out to talk to someone?

[00:29:27] Yeah.

[00:29:28] So it's like a bit like, you know, knock on a few doors, ask a few friends.

[00:29:33] But you're looking for the open one.

[00:29:35] But this statistic can prove that there are people right now in the UK who either want to know more about Jesus or want to encounter or experience him.

[00:29:45] So our job suddenly is not to convince.

[00:29:48] Our job is just to find the open people.

[00:29:52] This is really interesting.

[00:29:54] So we go door knocking quite regular across our estate.

[00:29:57] And we just knock on doors and we want to find out what's their feeling about the neighbourhood?

[00:30:02] What are they going through?

[00:30:03] And then we try to bring Jesus into that.

[00:30:05] Now, bearing in mind, I live in a Bengali Muslim, 65% Muslim neighbourhood.

[00:30:10] So it's quite skewed in the sense that there are more people here that believe Jesus is a prophet than anything else.

[00:30:16] So if I was to remove that clientele from our door knocking, we would definitely say our feeling is one in four people are willing to chat.

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:27] And willing to know more and are willing for us to pray with them.

[00:30:31] So we always end a conversation by saying, look, can I pray for you?

[00:30:35] I believe God wants to make a difference in your life.

[00:30:37] Can I pray?

[00:30:37] And there's just this openness that, you know, they're willing to allow you to do that.

[00:30:42] One door I knocked on as I'm about to finish, I said, can we pray for you?

[00:30:46] You know, what can I pray for?

[00:30:47] He says, my health.

[00:30:48] And he runs off.

[00:30:49] He's gone for two minutes and comes back with a whole NHS letter listing all of the things that's wrong with him.

[00:30:55] And he said, can you pray for this?

[00:30:57] I could pray for anything, mate.

[00:30:59] But that sense of openness.

[00:31:01] And you say some of these statistics, you know, they really ring true.

[00:31:04] If you've got the courage to simply ask somebody, then actually you might find that these statistics are more true around you than you think.

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:13] There was a guy who was, he was just, it's a couple of weeks ago, sometimes I whip in the back door of church, but it's funny, a bit late.

[00:31:20] So I went round the side.

[00:31:22] It's going to the evening.

[00:31:23] So I went round the side of church and there was a guy, he was drawing.

[00:31:26] He was sitting kind of on the windowsill.

[00:31:28] I don't know how he'd managed to get himself balanced up there.

[00:31:30] And he was drawing.

[00:31:32] And I was like, oh, I just stopped and said, oh, hi, what are you drawing?

[00:31:35] How are you?

[00:31:35] I said, do you know, because I kind of thought, he's almost in the church, Chris, because he's kind of on the windowsill.

[00:31:41] So I was like, hi.

[00:31:42] I just, you know, I said, church is open.

[00:31:44] If you want to come, we've got a service going on right now.

[00:31:46] You could come in.

[00:31:47] You could.

[00:31:48] He's like, oh, yeah, OK.

[00:31:49] You know what?

[00:31:50] I'm just going to finish my drawing and then I might come and join you.

[00:31:52] So then I hovered at the steps of church and then he comes trotting around the corner.

[00:31:56] He'd never been to church in his life.

[00:31:58] Never, you know, nothing ever.

[00:32:00] But he thought he'd give it a go.

[00:32:01] So he comes into church with me.

[00:32:03] We walk in through the doors.

[00:32:05] And then I was hoping we'd get some worship because often I've seen the power of worship work on people who come in for the first time.

[00:32:14] We'd missed the worship, Chris.

[00:32:15] We'd arrived in time for the sermon and you're like, oh, great.

[00:32:19] And it was a sermon on evangelism.

[00:32:21] And I'm like, oh, my word, how is this going to go?

[00:32:23] Anyway, he sits down with me.

[00:32:25] It was a great sermon done by our youth work.

[00:32:27] And it was amazing on evangelism.

[00:32:29] And of course, because he was talking about evangelism, he was just so enthusiastic about the good news of Jesus.

[00:32:33] So it actually worked really well.

[00:32:35] And this guy is every so often, you know, when you sit, you just you just check out the corner of your eye, aren't you?

[00:32:40] It's still OK.

[00:32:40] Yeah, it still looks OK.

[00:32:41] Yeah, it still looks OK.

[00:32:42] And then eventually he got his phone out.

[00:32:45] And he said, yeah, well, my friends are wondering where I've gone.

[00:32:49] Because he totally disappeared.

[00:32:51] And as he left, I gave him one of our Mark's Gospels to read.

[00:32:56] And I said, look, and I said, how did you find it?

[00:32:58] He said, actually, I found it really interesting.

[00:33:01] I've never done anything like this before.

[00:33:03] So I gave him a copy of The Life of Jesus.

[00:33:06] I said, read this.

[00:33:07] You can, you know, read it.

[00:33:08] Decide for yourself who Jesus is.

[00:33:09] And he actually was from Australia.

[00:33:11] He's going back to Australia to fly out the next day.

[00:33:12] So he said, I'm going to I'm going to try and find a church where I live in Australia.

[00:33:17] And I'm good.

[00:33:18] All from like just walking past.

[00:33:20] So that's Australia.

[00:33:22] We haven't done this yet in Australia.

[00:33:23] But we often find those kind of things around here.

[00:33:26] And there are people from the UK who are open.

[00:33:28] But this research helps me to think when I say when I'm out and about this research reframes me.

[00:33:35] I'm on a bus or a train or I walk past somebody on a windowsill to think, why don't I invite you?

[00:33:41] Because you could be one of these.

[00:33:42] You could be one of these open people.

[00:33:44] So if you're one of our Australian listeners, there is a guy wandering around Australia right now looking for a church.

[00:33:50] So go for it.

[00:33:51] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:52] And we still need to do this research over there because I think I think there's more openness again than people would imagine.

[00:34:00] In the last few moments that we're together.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:03] What what other data did you think was particularly interesting or inspiring for us?

[00:34:09] Yeah.

[00:34:09] No, that's that's good.

[00:34:10] So the last few is like we looked at how a lot of people come to faith in childhood and in their younger years.

[00:34:16] It's really important.

[00:34:17] Everything we do in those years.

[00:34:19] Super, super important.

[00:34:20] But people do come to faith as adults and are coming to faith.

[00:34:23] And we're seeing that across the UK as I travel around in more numbers.

[00:34:27] So some of the things that help an adult come to faith.

[00:34:29] Now, one of the number ones is a life event.

[00:34:32] And this means that particularly if you're going on a journey with a friend or a family, it's not a random person you're meeting on the bus.

[00:34:39] And always if something big happens to them, actually, it's not the moment to back off.

[00:34:43] It's the moment to go close and say, look, can I pray for you?

[00:34:46] Would you like to come to church with me?

[00:34:49] Can I give you something to read?

[00:34:50] They're the moments to actually go towards people because that's if you like when their life wobbles.

[00:34:55] That's why we've got these big opportunities at the moment is that the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, the war in the Middle East,

[00:35:03] the sense of economic uncertainty, all these things have meant that people, the foundations they've built their life on,

[00:35:10] they're not sure they're working anymore and they are asking bigger questions and there is a more openness.

[00:35:15] So the life event is number one.

[00:35:17] Then Christian families then believe it, church services, spiritual experiences.

[00:35:21] And I love it.

[00:35:22] Reading the Bible, conversations and actually responding, responding to the gospel of Christian events.

[00:35:28] And again, reading a printed material.

[00:35:31] All of these things are not difficult for us to do.

[00:35:32] So what I'm trying to say is adults coming to faith is not some kind of hard, difficult thing.

[00:35:40] If it's your friend or family, you're walking alongside them, keep asking them to things.

[00:35:44] They genuinely might be going to the hairdressers or genuinely might have booked the cinema on the evening that you ask them to come to church.

[00:35:51] So keep asking.

[00:35:52] Don't stop being in that sense.

[00:35:54] They like you.

[00:35:55] Keep asking them to things.

[00:35:57] And then give them a help.

[00:35:58] Like I do think reading the Bible comes out really big.

[00:36:01] It comes out as well.

[00:36:02] When we ask non-Christians about where would they go to find out about the Christian faith, they again said Google was number one.

[00:36:10] And then they said the church or the Bible.

[00:36:13] So non-Christians know if they want to find out the Christian faith, they'll either go to Google.

[00:36:16] So we need to stay on Google.

[00:36:18] But also they said a local church and the Bible.

[00:36:21] So do you know what?

[00:36:23] We're already doing loads of things.

[00:36:25] We run local churches.

[00:36:26] We're part of local churches.

[00:36:28] They're an incredible tool.

[00:36:29] A normal service is an incredible space and place.

[00:36:32] If you're confident in your church service experience, just ask somebody into that.

[00:36:36] You don't actually need to run another 50,000 events.

[00:36:39] What you just said is really important.

[00:36:40] So what wasn't said was going to a J.

[00:36:45] John event, going to a big mission event.

[00:36:49] Actually, what you're describing is local church.

[00:36:52] It's the Bible.

[00:36:54] It's friendships.

[00:36:55] It's being with people when they're going through those deaths, marriages, births, those seasons of life, divorce, being present in people's lives.

[00:37:05] That's what you're describing.

[00:37:07] It's not the big evangelistic thing.

[00:37:11] That might be a part of some of the pictures.

[00:37:13] Yeah, it can be a part of it.

[00:37:14] So for some people, it's significant.

[00:37:17] What I say about that is, why aren't we making more of our regular things like that?

[00:37:21] So I'm sure you do it, Chris.

[00:37:22] But when you've got people in at Christmas, give them a chance to decide to follow Jesus.

[00:37:27] So you haven't got to wait for a big, big, big thing, but organise somewhere else where you've got to get them all.

[00:37:32] We need to do this just in normal church life.

[00:37:35] We need to be helping everyone just to bring people in.

[00:37:38] And we need to give people that opportunity at Christmas and at Easter.

[00:37:42] Goodness.

[00:37:42] I mean, if that many people think about the resurrection, we so need to make more of Easter.

[00:37:46] So, yes, what I'm saying is, so often I go and they're like, what should we do, Rachel?

[00:37:51] And I'm like, well, make the most of what you've got.

[00:37:53] I'm not asking you to come up with a new whizzy bangy.

[00:37:56] Actually, what you all need to do is paint your churches bright orange.

[00:38:00] There's no, it's like there's not a new thing.

[00:38:02] It's do really good at what you do, but have the confidence to bring people in to what you're already doing and have confidence in the Bible.

[00:38:09] I can't say that.

[00:38:10] I cannot say that enough.

[00:38:12] But make sure you're handing people the life events of Jesus Christ, that they know this is the eyewitness account of Jesus.

[00:38:19] Because when I read my Bible, God speaks to me.

[00:38:23] When I got non-Christian, I'm so excited that guy walked off with the life of Jesus in his head.

[00:38:27] When he reads that, bored on his very long flight home, Jesus is going to speak to him.

[00:38:33] And that's not difficult to do.

[00:38:34] We've had people who've given those out.

[00:38:36] They did just put them in their church porch.

[00:38:37] I call it low bar evangelism.

[00:38:39] So you could do low bar evangelism, put the life of Jesus, put some Mark's Gospels in your porch.

[00:38:44] You know, it's not.

[00:38:46] So what I'm trying to say, this is not, we're demystifying this.

[00:38:50] There's a lot more people are open.

[00:38:51] A lot more people are interested.

[00:38:53] We need to find them.

[00:38:55] We need to not be afraid if someone says, I'm not interested.

[00:38:57] That's fine.

[00:38:57] Go on to the next person.

[00:38:59] And we need to do good at doing what we already regularly do.

[00:39:02] Invite them to church.

[00:39:04] Invite them to meet your Christian friends.

[00:39:06] Spend time with them.

[00:39:07] Pray with them.

[00:39:09] Give them a life for Jesus.

[00:39:11] The win is the invite, isn't it?

[00:39:13] Yes.

[00:39:13] The win is the invite.

[00:39:14] If they say, yes, I'm coming.

[00:39:16] Or here's a Bible.

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:18] Make the Bible accessible.

[00:39:18] And they say, yes.

[00:39:20] Great.

[00:39:21] The win is the invitation.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:23] Then it's entirely up to them how they want to respond.

[00:39:25] What I love about this is the word is just confidence, confidence, confidence.

[00:39:29] It is.

[00:39:30] I saw it in the room when you shared.

[00:39:31] And there's so much more data than what you've been able to talk about just now.

[00:39:35] So people, I will put a link to Talking Jesus, the study.

[00:39:41] It's online, isn't it, Rachel?

[00:39:42] I'll put a link to that.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:44] I'll put people to find it.

[00:39:45] But confidence is the key here.

[00:39:46] We should be more confident than we actually are.

[00:39:49] And we don't need to hide.

[00:39:50] We don't need to think, oh my gosh, this is embarrassing.

[00:39:53] No.

[00:39:53] What will people think?

[00:39:55] People want to hear.

[00:39:57] They're interested.

[00:39:58] They want to know why this makes a difference in your life.

[00:40:00] So, you know, don't sit back.

[00:40:03] Don't think I mustn't say anything because I'll get myself in trouble.

[00:40:05] People will think I'm odd.

[00:40:07] No.

[00:40:07] Have confidence because people want to hear.

[00:40:10] Rachel, thank you so, so much.

[00:40:13] And thank you for doing the research and making it available.

[00:40:16] Because I think one of the things that we'll hope we'll see over, you know, from this data,

[00:40:21] but also future data, it's just how confident we can be.

[00:40:25] And then what's the effect that that might have on the local church?

[00:40:28] So thank you.

[00:40:29] Yeah.

[00:40:30] Wonderful.

[00:40:30] I've absolutely loved it.

[00:40:31] And that is the strong message is just be confident.

[00:40:34] There are people, I can guarantee there are people out there who want to know about Jesus

[00:40:37] and want to experience or encounter him.

[00:40:40] Our job is just to find them and to leave the others to Jesus.

[00:40:44] But we are just to find those ones and guaranteed they are out there right now.

[00:40:49] Can I just ask you, you've referenced it a few times.

[00:40:52] Mark's gospel.

[00:40:54] Yes.

[00:40:55] And, you know, giving any Bible away is a win.

[00:40:59] Any, any Bible.

[00:41:00] You've got a Bible sat on your shelf, not being read.

[00:41:03] It's a sparesy.

[00:41:04] Give it away.

[00:41:05] But if anybody's interested in your Mark's gospel, because it is really beautiful.

[00:41:10] We had three of them in our cafe.

[00:41:12] Yes.

[00:41:12] And we realised that they've gone.

[00:41:14] They've vanished.

[00:41:14] We don't know where they are.

[00:41:15] Somebody's took them.

[00:41:16] Yes.

[00:41:17] And that's the joy of them.

[00:41:18] They just disappear.

[00:41:20] Because so that was another piece of research that we did.

[00:41:22] And we asked non-Christians about what Bible would they like?

[00:41:25] Were they interested in the Bible?

[00:41:26] Way more were interested, Chris, in the Bible than you.

[00:41:29] I like, again, cracking data.

[00:41:31] So people were interested.

[00:41:32] The things that mattered, particularly to a younger generation, was what it looked like

[00:41:36] and how easy it was to read.

[00:41:38] So we're like, that's not a problem.

[00:41:40] We can make one that looks beautiful and is easy to read.

[00:41:43] So we've done.

[00:41:43] So we've done.