221. Understanding Jesus' Hebrew Culture with Michele Guinness (Part 2).

[00:00:08] Hi friends, welcome to another episode of Making Disciples. My name is Cris and I am your host. So good to have you with me today. This is Dead Exciting, so this is part two of two interviews that I have just done with Michele Guinness and Pete Guinness.

[00:00:24] And this next episode is just with Michele. Pete has gone off to get a drink for Michele and now I'm just going to interview Michele, specifically focusing on the let's contextualize Jesus within his Jewish world.

[00:00:43] And there's so much in this interview that just helps us see Jesus, not only in his world, but how to read the scriptures as maybe a Jewish reader might read them, kind of exploring the themes that we might miss sometimes as we just read them as westernized Christians.

[00:01:04] So I hope you find this really interesting. If you didn't listen to the previous episode, which was the interview with Pete and Michele, I'd really encourage you after this episode to go back and listen to it.

[00:01:15] They kind of connect, but actually they're standalone interviews, so you don't have to listen to them in any particular order.

[00:01:21] But I can really guarantee that both of them are just really insightful to understand the Jewish faith that Jesus had 2000 years ago, you know, how he read scripture, how he understood the festivals as a Jew.

[00:01:37] We're going to continue that conversation today with Michele.

[00:01:40] Hey, if you're new to the podcast, warm welcome. Don't forget to subscribe.

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[00:02:09] So let's jump in as we interview Michele Guinness, looking at how we approach the Bible and the big God story as a Jewish reader.

[00:02:29] Michele, welcome back. Another episode.

[00:02:32] We've lost Pete. We've got you because we're going to have a very specific conversation about something that you're really passionate about today, aren't we?

[00:02:39] Which is really, you know, entitling it, Hebraic Spirituality.

[00:02:44] But if anybody didn't listen to the first episode, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:02:48] Why is this topic important to you?

[00:02:51] Why is contextualising Jesus as a Hebrew, as a Jew, why is this important to you?

[00:03:00] I became a Christian from, brought up in a practising Jewish family.

[00:03:05] Became a Christian a very long time ago now.

[00:03:07] I won't say how many years.

[00:03:11] But, and as I went on as a Christian, I began to find that there was just something missing for me in how I conducted my faith.

[00:03:23] It became quite dry.

[00:03:25] I mean, I'd read the Bible every day and pray and then often just go off into the day and forget about what I'd just read.

[00:03:34] And it didn't seem to be integrated in my life.

[00:03:38] And I began to think, well, what's that all about?

[00:03:42] I was brought up in a home where, although it was practising Jewish, there was very little appreciation of creation and nature and beauty.

[00:03:51] I mean, my parents were very successful.

[00:03:53] My father was very successful and particularly in that era.

[00:03:59] And my mother was very unhappy in the home.

[00:04:01] And I'd spent the whole time looking for more.

[00:04:04] And I found them all in coming to Christ.

[00:04:07] But then as I went on, I thought, yes, well, I have it.

[00:04:10] But there's more yet.

[00:04:12] What am I missing?

[00:04:13] And, you know, everybody was sort of talking about mindfulness and all of this kind of thing.

[00:04:18] And, you know, Buddhist prayers and mysticism.

[00:04:21] And I thought that doesn't float my boat because I'm a, you know, grasshopper.

[00:04:28] I'm always on the go.

[00:04:30] And I began to think about how Jesus lived his life and thought to myself, I think this is something I've missed completely.

[00:04:39] And I began to learn more and think back and think more and began to read the Gospels in detail until I could begin to see that there was very definitely something in the way Jesus lived that I hadn't grasped.

[00:04:56] I love that.

[00:04:58] Tell us then about a break.

[00:05:00] So if you've grown up a Christian or you're in the UK particularly, now many of our listeners aren't, but we see Jesus through a particular framework, don't we?

[00:05:11] But, you know, he was a Hebrew.

[00:05:13] So talk to us about the spirituality and the life of Jesus.

[00:05:18] What was the culture like?

[00:05:21] What's the spirituality like?

[00:05:22] It was the culture in which he lived was very different from ours.

[00:05:27] But we need to remember that there were Jewish teachers around at the time of Jesus, Shammai and Hillel.

[00:05:35] Hillel, yeah.

[00:05:36] And they wrote a lot down about spirituality.

[00:05:39] And when I started to read them, I thought, ah, so Jesus was in that mold and it began to help me.

[00:05:46] I think there's so much, Chris, that I'd like to say about it.

[00:05:50] But starting off with, Jesus was completely earthed.

[00:05:54] I mean, he turns the water into wine at a wedding in Cana because it ran out and it was shameful for the bride's parents.

[00:06:02] He feeds 5,000 at a picnic because the people are hungry, basically.

[00:06:06] And it's a grand day out and there's enough left over for the kids for school dinners for a week.

[00:06:11] And he fills the nets of the fishermen, his disciples, with fish because it's their livelihood.

[00:06:17] And Jairus' daughter, when he raises her from the dead, what does he say to the parents?

[00:06:21] Go and get us some fish and chips.

[00:06:23] Give us something to eat.

[00:06:24] He is intensely earthed and intensely practical.

[00:06:29] And it's certainly earthed in the everyday.

[00:06:32] And that very much reflects the culture in which he lived.

[00:06:36] I often, it's always struck me, and I've only seen it recently in Psalm 85.

[00:06:43] Even the sparrow has a home and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have a young near your altar, Lord God Almighty.

[00:06:51] And that, funnily enough, that's helped me a lot.

[00:06:54] Because here's the psalmist.

[00:06:56] He's sitting there in the temple at long services, impressive architecture, the Levites singing, the trumpets blowing, the rabbis are teaching.

[00:07:04] And what does he do?

[00:07:05] He notices a sparrow.

[00:07:07] And it matters.

[00:07:09] And I think that, for me, that's quite important.

[00:07:12] Because I've always been worried about distractions.

[00:07:14] You know, I'll sit down to pray and your mind goes off somewhere else.

[00:07:17] And I think that's what happened with the psalmist.

[00:07:21] Only his distraction led him to a deeper revelation of who God was.

[00:07:26] And I think God does say to us, forget the distractions.

[00:07:29] I'm just glad you're here.

[00:07:32] And so it's transformed the way I pray, I think.

[00:07:38] I don't worry anymore about distractions.

[00:07:40] And I quite like going off and having a walk while I'm doing it or doing something different.

[00:07:45] Now, the Jewish sages at the time of Jesus said that spirituality was about giving attention.

[00:07:55] If you wanted to find, have a glimpse of the glory of God, then you needed to pay attention to everything you saw, the most mundane and the most ordinary around you.

[00:08:09] And it can take a lifetime of practice.

[00:08:12] So they developed what was called the halacha.

[00:08:16] It means progression.

[00:08:18] And it's how you walk through life.

[00:08:21] And there's a system in Judaism of blessings.

[00:08:24] You have a blessing for virtually everything.

[00:08:27] For when you come home from work, from when you get up in the morning, how you wash, when you wash, how you brush your teeth, what you're going to wear.

[00:08:36] There's a blessing, you say, for each of them.

[00:08:39] For food, for wine, fruit from the ground, fruit from a tree.

[00:08:44] There's a blessing, you say, for seeing a beautiful woman or even smelling a bad smell or seeing a rainbow.

[00:08:50] And they are meant to enable you to focus on what's going on around you.

[00:08:57] And they said the ultimate in holiness was to find a hundred things to bless God for every day, which is just wonderful.

[00:09:07] And I often say to folk, here's an exercise for you.

[00:09:10] Sit down and work out, you know, at the end of the day, how many things you've got to bless God for.

[00:09:14] Can you get to a hundred?

[00:09:15] You're a real sage, they said, if you could get to a hundred.

[00:09:19] A real, a really spiritual person.

[00:09:23] And, I mean, I think we say I'd be transformed.

[00:09:27] You never didn't have to spend hours.

[00:09:29] Yeah, I'd spend time with God if I didn't have to empty the bins and wash the dishes and vac the carpets and change the baby's nappy and clean the loo.

[00:09:39] Those trivial things that really annoy us.

[00:09:42] Brushing your teeth, four minutes wasted of a day.

[00:09:46] But the sages said for those things, you were created.

[00:09:52] To sit on the motorway in traffic.

[00:09:56] To empty the rubbish bin.

[00:09:59] To clean the loo's.

[00:10:00] To find God in the drudgery of every day and every detail.

[00:10:06] I mean, the longest blessing they have in Judaism, and one of them is for when you've been to the loo.

[00:10:10] It might as well be a spiritual experience because you've got to go in there several times a day.

[00:10:16] I think it's thanking God that from dust we come and to dust we will return one day.

[00:10:22] And so I keep my prayer board in the loo.

[00:10:25] But I think the important thing about all of this, it was a whole culture at the time of Jesus.

[00:10:31] And he is exactly what he did and lived out.

[00:10:38] So in the previous conversation, we were talking about the big festivals.

[00:10:42] But actually what you're talking about here is almost like a swing to the everyday spirituality.

[00:10:50] Not the big festivals, but the everyday.

[00:10:52] You know, going to the loo, taking the bins out, changing the nappy.

[00:10:56] This is everyday spirituality.

[00:10:59] And this is what we actually see, you know, so much of in the Gospels.

[00:11:03] It's just what does it look like every day to follow the Lord?

[00:11:09] Yeah.

[00:11:09] I mean, he was, wasn't he, Jesus, in constant touch with the Father.

[00:11:12] Yes, he did the three daily prayers, morning, afternoon and evening.

[00:11:19] Shema Yisrael, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[00:11:22] He did those traditional prayers, but it's actually more than that.

[00:11:26] He didn't just do them.

[00:11:27] It's how he lived.

[00:11:28] I mean, he tells the most, he's a wonderful storyteller.

[00:11:33] But how does he do that?

[00:11:35] He does it by watching and listening.

[00:11:38] And he looks at ordinary people and how they live.

[00:11:42] I mean, he created parables and stories out of the most ordinary everyday things.

[00:11:48] I mean, this, I found this recently and it just blew me away.

[00:11:54] Matthew 6 and 7.

[00:11:56] Okay.

[00:11:57] Do you want to know what things prompt Jesus' storytelling in just two chapters of Matthew?

[00:12:04] Okay.

[00:12:05] Moth, rust, thieves, birds, lilies, spinning, ovens, log, speck, dogs, pearls, bread, stones,

[00:12:13] gates, wolves, grapes, thorns, figs and thistles, fruit, fire, sand and rock.

[00:12:20] In two chapters.

[00:12:22] Yeah.

[00:12:22] The wires of the foolish builders at the end.

[00:12:24] Yeah.

[00:12:25] I've got it right in front of me.

[00:12:26] Yeah.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:27] And we go around with our eyes closed.

[00:12:30] We don't see it.

[00:12:32] He saw it.

[00:12:33] It was all there for him.

[00:12:35] And it came alive.

[00:12:36] It generated, it inspired the stories he told.

[00:12:40] I mean, these are nuggets of gold.

[00:12:43] This is a glimpse of the glory of God in the most mundane and ordinary everyday and turning

[00:12:50] them into teaching points.

[00:12:52] So he's taking the everyday dust and dirt minutiae of life and that's what he uses as the contents

[00:13:02] of his stories.

[00:13:03] Absolutely.

[00:13:04] They're the symbols.

[00:13:05] They're the imagery that he uses.

[00:13:08] They are the everyday.

[00:13:08] He never actually mentions the word grace.

[00:13:13] But Luke 15, the three lost and found stories, the lost sheep, the lost coin, which was probably

[00:13:21] a coin off a necklace that was a dowry, a bit like an engagement ring.

[00:13:26] So no wonder the woman was distressed.

[00:13:29] And the prodigal son.

[00:13:33] He doesn't say, well, let me sit down now.

[00:13:35] You sit down and I'll explain to you what grace is.

[00:13:38] It's God's riches at Christ's expense, which is never sufficient anyway.

[00:13:42] He said, I will show you what grace looks like.

[00:13:46] And he tells these three stories.

[00:13:49] And they are stories of the absolute, absurd love of God that will go to any lengths, that

[00:13:56] is as forgiving as it can possibly be in the prodigal son.

[00:14:02] And anyone listening to that story would say, well, that boy wanted his father's money.

[00:14:06] He deserved stoning.

[00:14:08] And Jesus turns it on its head.

[00:14:12] And we know what grace is from that story.

[00:14:15] It is this extraordinary love that will go the last mile to find in the lost sheep and to

[00:14:23] love in the prodigal.

[00:14:26] And to any length, it's a story of the lost engagement ring, really.

[00:14:31] I mean, you know what a woman's like if she loses her engagement ring.

[00:14:34] Can I get you to say that again?

[00:14:36] Because you said that so fast.

[00:14:37] You've just said something I did not know.

[00:14:40] So the lost coin.

[00:14:41] You talked about a diary, a chain, back up.

[00:14:44] What?

[00:14:45] What is that?

[00:14:47] You've just said something that I think is really interesting.

[00:14:50] So in the story, she's lost a coin.

[00:14:53] What was the coin?

[00:14:55] The coin, when a woman got engaged, she was given a necklace with several coins on them.

[00:15:01] I wish I could tell you what each signified.

[00:15:04] I haven't quite worked that out.

[00:15:06] But to lose one would be a huge disgrace.

[00:15:10] It was sentimental, not financial value and worth.

[00:15:15] It's incredibly important.

[00:15:20] And, you know, if a woman loses something like that, I mean, she's got a hand up, the plumbing and everything.

[00:15:24] If it's got down the sink or worse.

[00:15:28] And he's fastening on that.

[00:15:32] Right.

[00:15:32] And each of these people that he touches, they end up by, I don't think the shepherd, but certainly the others, by having a huge party.

[00:15:44] And the disciples say to Jesus, what's that all about?

[00:15:48] And he said, because when one sinner comes to Jesus, that's what the angels in heaven are doing.

[00:15:56] They are partying over every one of us.

[00:16:01] Each one of us has had our own party in heaven when we actually understood what Jesus was all about.

[00:16:09] And it's a wonderful picture.

[00:16:11] I mean, he goes from one picture to another, to another and just opens our eyes to the absurd love of God that will go to any lengths.

[00:16:20] I think this is, you've just said something really key, that when a Westerner reads Scripture, we're reading words.

[00:16:28] But when an Easterner reads Scripture, they're reading the pictures.

[00:16:32] And that is so important.

[00:16:34] Jesus speaks in pictures.

[00:16:35] Now, yes, the words are important.

[00:16:37] But what Jesus does, and if you've spent any time in the Middle East, it doesn't matter, you know, where it be Iraq or Israel.

[00:16:46] The culture is to talk in pictures.

[00:16:49] It's picture language.

[00:16:50] And therefore, when we read the Bible, we do need to be reading the pictures.

[00:16:54] You know, yes, parables are pictures, but actually there's picture language throughout Scripture.

[00:16:58] And that's a very Hebrew way of behaving and thinking, isn't it?

[00:17:03] It certainly is.

[00:17:04] And with Jesus, what's so lovely, it's not just seeing.

[00:17:08] He uses all the senses.

[00:17:11] We tend to undervalue our senses enormously.

[00:17:14] We're not in touch with them.

[00:17:16] I mean, he says, listen to the wind.

[00:17:18] It's like the Holy Spirit.

[00:17:20] Drink the water I give you and you'll never thirst again.

[00:17:24] Smell this perfume.

[00:17:26] Think of me and my death.

[00:17:28] Touch me, he says to Thomas.

[00:17:30] Show is, you want to know if it's really me?

[00:17:32] Touch me.

[00:17:34] Look at the lilies of the field.

[00:17:36] That's the visual one, isn't it?

[00:17:37] And watch the agricultural laborer and eat bread and wine.

[00:17:42] Isn't it interesting?

[00:17:43] The two most important symbols of our faith are taken orally.

[00:17:48] And I do remember on one occasion smelling the wine ready for communion as I walked into church and thought, oh, great, it's communion today.

[00:17:59] And I thought, aha, we do use this.

[00:18:02] We're just not aware of it.

[00:18:04] And it is important.

[00:18:07] And Jesus uses the word listen a lot, which is blepete in Greek.

[00:18:12] I think that's right.

[00:18:13] You would probably know better than I do.

[00:18:15] And it means see what you hear literally.

[00:18:20] Yes.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:21] So you're hearing and you're interpreting.

[00:18:26] So you need to be aware.

[00:18:30] We need to walk through this world differently until everything we see, hear, smell, taste and touch is an opportunity for God to show us a little more of his glory.

[00:18:43] It's like the taste and see that God is good.

[00:18:46] Yes.

[00:18:47] With a meal, you see the, you know, you, I'm a Yorkshireman.

[00:18:52] So I roast dinner with Yorkshire puddings.

[00:18:53] You see it.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:54] You're already salivating.

[00:18:56] You know, you see, you taste.

[00:18:58] It's all of those senses, isn't it?

[00:19:01] It is.

[00:19:02] Yeah.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:04] I've got a lovely quote somewhere.

[00:19:06] Let's see if I can find this fabulous quote.

[00:19:10] Oh, yeah, I'll get it.

[00:19:13] Yes.

[00:19:15] Oh, I can't find it at the moment.

[00:19:17] Let me, it'll appear somewhere.

[00:19:21] Yeah, it is.

[00:19:23] I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's beautiful, isn't it?

[00:19:28] Oh, sorry about this, Chris.

[00:19:31] I have, I love this quote.

[00:19:33] And it's so, oh, it's, um.

[00:19:36] Hmm.

[00:19:37] No, it's just not coming.

[00:19:39] Yes, here it is.

[00:19:42] It's, there's a lovely quote.

[00:19:44] There's a quote that I really love.

[00:19:46] The world, this is WB Yates, would you believe, the poet?

[00:19:50] The world is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our senses to grow sharper.

[00:19:57] And I think God calls us to sharpen our senses, to use the gift of our imagination.

[00:20:04] We're not good as Christians.

[00:20:06] We're a little afraid of the imagination.

[00:20:08] It may take off and take us to places we don't want to go.

[00:20:11] And we need to sharpen it and focus it and use the senses so that we're more creative.

[00:20:18] I can't help but think if we start doing that, our churches are going to be so much more creative.

[00:20:24] We're going to have things there that appeal to the senses.

[00:20:29] We're going to think about lighting.

[00:20:30] We're going to think about, um, uh, the, the sense we use.

[00:20:37] We're going to think about what's to be listened to.

[00:20:41] Are there going to be times when we stop singing for a moment and just listen and we let God speak.

[00:20:46] But we, we don't often don't even give him the time to do that.

[00:20:49] And I think for the disciples, they must've been gobsmacked because everywhere Jesus looked, he came up with a parable.

[00:20:57] You know, when, when he talks about the whitewashed tombs, he's actually looking at them in Jerusalem where, where all the tombs are.

[00:21:07] The Mount of Olives.

[00:21:08] He's saying, you know, the Pharisees are whitewashed tombs.

[00:21:10] Makes the point there.

[00:21:11] How easy to be a hypocrite.

[00:21:13] Yeah.

[00:21:13] Um, and yeah.

[00:21:15] So as anybody listening doesn't know what that means.

[00:21:17] So there was temple, there were, there was tombs on the edge of Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives.

[00:21:21] They would paint them white, partly so that you wouldn't stand on a tomb because it was, it was degrading to stand on a tomb.

[00:21:27] They'd paint them white.

[00:21:28] So they looked good.

[00:21:30] The whole idea was they might look good on the outside, but there's still death inside.

[00:21:34] There's death.

[00:21:34] Yeah.

[00:21:35] Still death inside.

[00:21:36] It's wonderful, isn't it?

[00:21:37] You make them look, yeah.

[00:21:38] So you've talked there about story.

[00:21:40] You've talked there about imagination.

[00:21:42] You've talked there about senses.

[00:21:44] The one that you haven't talked about yet too much is about symbols.

[00:21:48] Yes.

[00:21:48] Because the big Jewish things is symbolism, isn't it?

[00:21:53] You know, give us just a bit of an idea of how did the Hebrews use symbolism in everyday life?

[00:21:59] Well, they still do today, of course.

[00:22:02] I mean, a lot of the food they eat is symbolic, which is why it's so interesting that bread and wine are taken orally.

[00:22:12] That they are the symbols that Jesus, most important symbols Jesus introduced for us.

[00:22:19] But there will be things like horseradish that make your eyes water at the Passover because you're supposed to remember the tears.

[00:22:27] You wept when you were a slave in Egypt.

[00:22:29] And it's supposed to remind you of how wonderful it is to be free now.

[00:22:36] At, for example, Shavuot, which is Pentecost, the symbol for the law, the symbolic colours are red and white.

[00:22:47] White for purity, red for the symbol of God's kingship.

[00:22:51] So they will eat a cheesecake with a raspberry topping.

[00:22:57] So all of these things are there to set your memory going.

[00:23:03] And I think this is what Jesus was doing with a lot of the symbols that he picked up.

[00:23:08] I mean, we talk about, you know, the wise man built his house upon the rock.

[00:23:12] But I have no doubt that in front of Jesus was a massive rock and a patch of sand.

[00:23:18] Because we don't see it, do we?

[00:23:21] We think this is just a nice little children's story.

[00:23:24] But actually, it's profound.

[00:23:26] What does it mean to build our house on solid ground so that we're unshakable in difficulty and tribulation?

[00:23:36] And I love trying to find them for myself.

[00:23:39] I often wear, for example, the tree of life around my neck.

[00:23:44] I'm not terribly sure what the implications are.

[00:23:47] No doubt some of them probably aren't terribly spiritual.

[00:23:50] But I look for symbols.

[00:23:52] And I'm trying to teach my grandchildren.

[00:23:56] And little Solomon, who is, how old will he be?

[00:23:59] Six.

[00:24:00] He's a huge collector of stones now.

[00:24:03] Every colour and kind of stone.

[00:24:06] Because stones matter to him.

[00:24:08] They speak to him of all sorts of, you know, the colour in them.

[00:24:13] And the mystery.

[00:24:14] And the miracle of where they came from.

[00:24:17] And isn't that true of us?

[00:24:19] The mystery, we're all different.

[00:24:20] Where did we come from?

[00:24:22] How were we created?

[00:24:23] What are we doing here in this universe?

[00:24:25] And are we just little?

[00:24:27] But we may be little.

[00:24:28] But look, if I pick up this stone and take it home, it's worth something.

[00:24:33] I think one of the things that I'm passionate about is that Jesus wasn't a carpenter.

[00:24:39] He was a tech builder, a stonemason.

[00:24:42] Absolutely.

[00:24:42] And therefore, when you read the teaching of Jesus, riddled within his teaching is the symbolism of stones.

[00:24:48] Foundation stones, cornerstones.

[00:24:51] You never hear Jesus say, let me give you a parable about a carpenter.

[00:24:55] You just don't see it.

[00:24:57] Because Jesus' symbol is all stone related.

[00:25:01] And I just find that really interesting.

[00:25:03] I was with somebody today who was reading something for me from Peter.

[00:25:08] And sorry, from Paul, where it talks about Adam.

[00:25:13] You know, our sinfulness comes from Adam, but our salvation comes from Jesus Christ.

[00:25:16] And they said, why Adam?

[00:25:18] And I was able to say, actually, Adam's a symbol of our sinfulness.

[00:25:22] And I was able to take them back to Genesis and say, look what happened in Genesis.

[00:25:26] Therefore, wherever you find the symbol of Adam, it's about the fallenness of humanity.

[00:25:31] So learning some of these symbols isn't about there's a secret code you've got to crack.

[00:25:38] But there are some symbols that are really helpful once you've got them.

[00:25:41] Because, you know, when Adam's mentioned, that's the fallen humanity.

[00:25:46] When bread and wine is mentioned, well, that takes you back to Passover.

[00:25:50] When stones are mentioned, you know, that's talking about temple.

[00:25:55] You know, the temple in Jerusalem was all based on foundation stones.

[00:25:58] So these symbols are really helpful once you've understood them.

[00:26:01] You go, oh, right, I know now why you might say this, Jesus, or Paul.

[00:26:07] Because it goes back.

[00:26:08] The symbol goes back into the Old Testament.

[00:26:11] So they're really quite helpful, aren't they, to unlock some of them.

[00:26:15] It's not a game and there's no secret knowledge.

[00:26:18] Actually, when you look...

[00:26:19] Some of them are very straightforward.

[00:26:20] I mean, the lilies of the field and God will provide all that we need.

[00:26:24] And the birds of the field.

[00:26:27] They're very straightforward.

[00:26:29] But as you say, there are some that are less obvious, aren't there?

[00:26:33] And it's actually looking for them and seeing them.

[00:26:36] But I also think it's finding our own.

[00:26:40] And when I'm on a walk, I will look for something.

[00:26:44] I mean, I'm trying to think specifically of...

[00:26:49] I remember...

[00:26:51] No, it's probably...

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:52] No, I was going to say, I remember looking into a telescope once and seeing a grain of

[00:26:57] sand.

[00:26:58] And it looked like boiled sweets.

[00:27:02] And I mean, there are as many grains of sand on the beach as there are stars in the universe.

[00:27:07] It's phenomenal.

[00:27:08] And so, you know, somebody gives me a boiled sweet now.

[00:27:11] I often...

[00:27:12] Oh!

[00:27:13] You know, I think of God's amazing creativity.

[00:27:16] Which takes us back to Isaiah, doesn't it?

[00:27:18] You know, with the sweetness on our lips.

[00:27:21] And the Jews would often taste honey on their lips to remind themselves how sweet God's word was.

[00:27:26] I think they used to put it on a baby's bottom lip as well to make them suck when they were newborns.

[00:27:32] Oh!

[00:27:34] Yeah.

[00:27:35] So that's amazing.

[00:27:36] As we've been thinking a little bit about, you know, Hebraic spirituality, we're thinking it's very tangible.

[00:27:40] It's very earthy.

[00:27:42] It's very grounded.

[00:27:42] It is very prayerful.

[00:27:44] It's deeply prayerful.

[00:27:45] I love what you were saying about everything had a prayer.

[00:27:48] You'd wash your bowl.

[00:27:49] You did a prayer.

[00:27:51] You would put your shoes on.

[00:27:52] You did a prayer.

[00:27:53] All of these things.

[00:27:54] It was rhythms of prayer.

[00:27:55] We've talked about story, imagination, symbols, senses.

[00:28:00] It's all so tangible.

[00:28:02] Not this airy-fairy, supernaturally religious-y thing.

[00:28:07] It was so grounded in life, wasn't it?

[00:28:09] Even drinking wine was symbolic of the heaven.

[00:28:13] You know, we drink wine in the scriptures as a way of reminding ourselves of heaven on earth.

[00:28:19] That was, you know, one of the reasons why they had grapes and they drank wine is heaven is on earth when we drink wine.

[00:28:24] So symbols riddled.

[00:28:26] And it was a symbol of rejoicing, wasn't it, as well?

[00:28:30] Of real joy.

[00:28:32] You couldn't have a festival without it because it was joy.

[00:28:35] And bread.

[00:28:36] For the Sabbath, for example, every Jewish household will have bread and wine.

[00:28:41] And the bread is the symbol of the work of a human being's hands.

[00:28:45] Whether it's paid for or voluntary, it's work.

[00:28:49] And wine is the symbol of rejoicing and joy and rest.

[00:28:52] So even then, every week, you are going through a ritual that will remind you of the importance of Sabbath and what it's all about.

[00:29:03] Thanking God.

[00:29:04] I was just trying to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it?

[00:29:06] And the challenge for us is how do we put in rhythms that point us back to what God has done, point us forward to what is to come, and to take time in his presence, walking, tasting a sweet.

[00:29:23] You know, all these rhythms, things you might put in your life.

[00:29:25] I have a friend who on a Friday on his day off, he will go and eat a donut.

[00:29:29] He loves donuts.

[00:29:30] And he goes, it's almost a rhythm.

[00:29:31] And when he's in the donut shop, he prays and he takes time.

[00:29:35] It sounds ridiculous.

[00:29:37] But the sweetness of the donut is something about him reflecting on the sweetness of life, which is a very Jewish thing.

[00:29:44] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:45] I love that one.

[00:29:46] Yeah, I found myself writing the other day about, once a week, we used to go with friends to review where we were up to and have a reading week up in the Lake District.

[00:29:58] And every year, there was an ice cream van parked just as people were waiting to cross from, across from, over from Windermere to Ambleside, across the lake.

[00:30:09] Or Hawke's Head, I can't remember which it was.

[00:30:12] But every year, the moment I got that ice cream in my hand and we sat on the bank waiting for our turn for the ferry, I, and the first taste of that, my whole life would go, thank you, Lord, for a reading week with friends.

[00:30:28] This is what a wonderful treat and a gift.

[00:30:30] So it was sparked by that symbol of an ice cream.

[00:30:37] So the challenge for us then, as a wrap-up, take home, what do we do with this?

[00:30:42] I think there's a challenge to each of us is what rhythms could we put into our lives that are going to help us connect with the Lord?

[00:30:51] And the Lord is a God of business and busyness, but he's also a God of stillness and peace.

[00:30:57] So what are we going to put into our lives to help us in that rhythm?

[00:31:02] The church helps us.

[00:31:03] You know, every week we have confession.

[00:31:06] Every week we have communion.

[00:31:07] These things are put into our lives as helpful things.

[00:31:10] But there are things that we can do as well.

[00:31:12] Being able to each week do something that helps us on the spiritual rhythm.

[00:31:16] One of the symbols I always loved about Jews on Sabbath would light a candle to mark the start of Sabbath.

[00:31:24] And I think there's something about these rituals and rhythms that help us connect with God, don't they?

[00:31:29] Absolutely.

[00:31:30] So, you know, that's the challenge for us is what can we do?

[00:31:33] Yeah.

[00:31:33] Create symbols and rhythms and, you know, that help our senses engage with God as well.

[00:31:41] Absolutely.

[00:31:42] To take, not, you know, not to sort of say goodbye to it all at the church door on a Sunday,

[00:31:48] but to look how we can live it from Monday to Saturday as well.

[00:31:52] I think that's essential.

[00:31:54] If our faith is going to be real and engaged and our prayer life is going to be more than just, you know, a sequence of requests.

[00:32:02] And we want to see just that glimmer of God's glory in the most dirty thing around us, even in the housework.

[00:32:10] Michelle, where can people find, you know, people are listening to you.

[00:32:14] I want more of that.

[00:32:15] I want to hear more of that.

[00:32:16] Where can people find you?

[00:32:18] I mean, this is a work in progress for me.

[00:32:21] I'm just working on this at the moment and I've been speaking about it in various places.

[00:32:26] And so I think I'm hoping I'm writing about it at the moment, too.

[00:32:31] I'm hoping that will be developed in the fullness of time.

[00:32:34] But probably some of it in a book called The Heavenly Party, possibly some of it in the biography I wrote called Chosen.

[00:32:44] There are hints of it, I think, all through those two books.

[00:32:50] But I'm actually trying to show how that can be put into practice in the writing I'm doing at the moment.

[00:32:58] And maybe I should put on my website something a bit more condensed from just what we've been saying today.

[00:33:05] I'll try and do that.

[00:33:07] What is your website?

[00:33:09] Michelle Guinness.co.uk.

[00:33:16] Two N's in Guinness and one L in Michelle.

[00:33:18] We'll put it in the show notes.

[00:33:20] Michelle, thank you so much for giving me your time.

[00:33:23] It was 2020 when we last had you on the podcast.

[00:33:27] So March 2020 is four years ago.

[00:33:30] So as a time flown, thank you so much for giving me a bit more of your time.

[00:33:35] I think the way that you approach Christianity through that lens of understanding the biblical culture is just it is refreshing.

[00:33:47] And I know you've been banging on about this stuff for years and years.

[00:33:50] But it's just good to keep hearing it and good to keep reminding ourselves.

[00:33:55] Because actually in the echo chamber of Christianity, the Western Christianity, it gets lost.

[00:34:00] It really gets lost.

[00:34:02] And a very Western reading of scripture just gets perpetuated through Google and YouTube and that kind of stuff.

[00:34:09] So thank you for just continuing to bang that drum.

[00:34:12] I really appreciate it.

[00:34:13] Thank you, Chris.

[00:34:14] That's such an encouragement.

[00:34:16] Thank you for your invitation.

[00:34:17] A pleasure.

[00:34:18] Thank you so much.

[00:34:19] Grace and peace.