220. Seeing Jesus in the Jewish festivals, interview with Pete and Michele Guinness. (Part 1)

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Massive one welcome to you. Welcome to Making Disciples. It's really lovely to have you with me today.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Cris Rogers and I am your host here on the Making Disciples podcast. Today's episode is an interview with two very

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: special people.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Pete and Michele Guinness have been in and around my life for

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: many, many years and there is a that is when I was growing up the local church that I went to, Pete and Michele Guinness, were

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: at that church. Pete was a curate for those that don't know Church of England jargon. That means he was

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: he was trained to be a priest and he was in three years of our kind of apprenticeship season

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: under another priest before he went on to take on his own church. Pete was with us and Pete and Michele

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: introduced me, you know, it was the early days of introducing me to this understanding that Jesus was Jewish and

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll hear in the episodes. I've recorded two episodes with them. We ended up talking about the Passover meal and

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember very young, very young Cris going to a Passover meal where the cedar was helping us explore the gospel and

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus how we fitted into the big Jewish story, you know, the understanding of the Jewish Messiah.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So very special people and then known

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Michele through Spring Harvest

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: for many, many years. We had Michele on the podcast in the past.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a couple of years ago now and we said at the time we need to get you guys back

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a couple of things that I really wanted to explore with them and we'll explore them over these two episodes

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: The first one is

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: around Jewish festivals and understanding if we might just understand the Jewish festivals

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: then understanding what Jesus does at those festivals why it's communicating that he's the Messiah

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so important. So we're gonna explore that and Pete really is passionate particularly about about that piece of our conversation

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first interview will be with Pete and Michele next week's episode is just an interview with just a

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody said I should like it is a interview then with Michele on her own

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Exploring some of the wider ideas

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of Jewish story telling and understanding the big God story

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So the next two weeks

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thoroughly excited to be able to spend time with both of them and

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to hear what they have to say

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: into a way of interpreting the gospel seeing the gospel through a Jewish framework

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really hope and pray that you find these episodes as

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting as I did when I was listening to them both and just exploring this with me

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really hope you find it helpful. I think for me there is something about locating Jesus in the time the location

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The vicinity the religion of the time and understanding Jesus's approaches

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: approach to gods and festivals and

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And the use of festivals to communicate who who God is and what God is doing. It's so special

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really hope that you find this interesting. So let's just jump in as we explore together

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: This interview with Peter Michele on the Jewish festivals

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Pete and Michelle Guinness, thank you so much for giving us some time today for making disciples

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: This is such a joy and a privilege to have both of you together

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna record two episodes back-to-back and they will go out in separate weeks

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But do you want to just give us an idea? Where do you live right now?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And what you know what why would we be talking about the topics of

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Jewish festivals and Jesus as a Jewish rabbi. Why would we be? Why would I be talking to you both about this?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is this important to you? So, you know, where are you right now and why is this important?

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We're actually in France. We live in France six months of the year and the UK six months of the year and

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that's quite a long story about how we got here for that, but it is

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful to be here and France is one of the most under evangelized

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Countries in Europe probably the and so it is a privilege to do mission here

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I come from a Jewish family and when I married Peter discovered his family

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: had been involved in Jewish Christian relations

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships for years and

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: He had an insight

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Theologically into a lot of Jewish things that I needed to learn and he set me on the course for learning more about my background

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And how it really illuminated the Jewish Jesus for me

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is this is what we're gonna be talking a little bit more today around is

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: understanding Jesus in his context, aren't we and

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I looked at you know as we talk about Jesus just give me give us an idea about why it's important for us that

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: G we understand Jesus in his context

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the reasons is for example the the

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Attitudes are Jesus teaching and they're all biblical exhibition exposition

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus is actually teaching the Old Testament and he said he came to fulfill the law

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But he's also getting them to to realize the fundamentals of what's in the Bible and the big story

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And that God planned ages ago that there would be a king coming

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And in the line of David and Jesus is born of the line of David

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's pretty important that you understand that Jesus is a practicing Jew

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But who's liberating them from a wrong view of what God wants

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course all he was the Old Testament not the new we tend to forget that as Christians and he will have known

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Most of it if not all of it off by heart

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So that gave him the ability to

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Share the things that would make the folk he was with

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Understand and see that he was the Messiah

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Now of course, we're quite seasonal aren't we we think of Christmas and Easter

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Pentecost summer holidays these seasons are important to us

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: but when you look at the the Jewish people at

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: festivals are even more important and

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They are these you know seismic moments in the year where something is remembered

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'd love to talk to you a little bit about the Jewish festivals and just the framework of the year and how

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: When we understand the festivals we understand a little bit more about Jesus and who he is and what he's come to do and

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Where do we start, you know could you just you know?

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the give us an outline of some of the Jewish festivals because sometimes you know them

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I think we start really by saying that celebration is

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: A very important aspect of the spiritual life and it often gets pushed out because we Christians think it's very hair shirt

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We think we've got to feel pain rather than enjoy ourselves

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But throughout the Old Testament particularly in the first five books the law of Moses

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: God

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Continually repeats and it's there in so many places. You shall enjoy

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Enjoy your festivals. You shall let your hair down because the word enjoy there is Samayah

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And it comes from the Hebrew word

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Simcha or at least some Simcha comes from Samayah and the Jews use the word with Simcha to describe a party

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We're having a birthday party an anniversary. We're having a dance. We're having a do

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Come prepared to enjoy yourself

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And Simcha comes from that Samayah you shall party basically God is saying on your festivals

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You will three commands

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You will down tools you'll enjoy yourself and you'll bring lots of food for everybody else

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, can you argue with a come with God's commandments when they're like that? It's wonderful

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What are these festivals?

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there are three major festivals

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of smaller ones, but the three major ones are the most important

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They were called the pilgrim festivals when all the Jewish communities including Jesus and his family would have gone up from the various places where they lived

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: To Jerusalem to celebrate them at the temple and they would have camped on the hillside

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And they had such fun

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean three-day journey by foot to get there three days back

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a week's holiday before you start with yet another week's holiday

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you do that three times here, that's six weeks holiday for a start before you get onto the minor festivals

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The I mean the new wine would be flowing and the people will be dancing and the priests the Sanhedrin

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently did a juggling act with six burning torches

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They were renowned for it and everybody had enormous

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: enormous night of fun the following morning the trumpets would sound the shofar and

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They would go up all the people in as orderly a procession as Jews can manage which is not very orderly

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But they'd all our mass go up to the temple and the great

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Candelabra would be burning

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that tabernacles particular?

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no they did it also it should what there are three anyway. There are tabernacles

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: First one in the year is is the Passover is Passover. That's a day paper

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Later is Pentecost

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because 50 days after they left Egypt and were free they were at Mount Sinai and the law was given

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's celebrating that

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then finally in the autumn autumn there are three autumn festivals

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: but the

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The New Year the day of atonement, but it culminates in tabernacles

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Sukot where the people remember their dreadful stay in the wilderness for 40 years and

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They celebrate a harvest, but they also celebrate how fragile life is and how important God's protection is

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why they live in little boons that they build

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they would build these little these little tents or shed units when they they it's quite incredible

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's meant to be a flimsy structure because

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: if you look at the Psalms and in the older versions of

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The translations into English talks about tabernacling in the presence of the Lord and

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Tabernacle means tent doesn't it so

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The whole idea is that your flimsy structure

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Resembles God overshadowing you when you traveled through the desert for 40 years and he looked after you were protected by his presence over you

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are other symbols across in tabernacles. There were six altogether. Yeah

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: so you've got

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got the fruit people will carry as something like a lemon or an orange and in there are the pips

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That where is your future?

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: those are future harvests and then you have palm branches to wave and celebration and

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you have

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So far we used to have a so far blowing competition when we did

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: In our church

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That one

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, just near my shelf

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm inside my menorah candle as well. And then there's the light the burning candelabra

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So when Jesus said I am the light of the world in in John's gospel

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: At that occasion

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: When he was we know he was that says on the last day of the great feast

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And we know it was tabernacles and that he was there and he would be pointing at the great

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Lights that were burning and then there's water as well

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean the the great lights are put on the high walls around the temple

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You remember the temple has a lot of columns where Jesus used to teach well on the top of those walls

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They put four large braziers filled with

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Burning cloth in oil to light the whole area so you could celebrate all night and rejoice and fulfill the commandment

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You shall rejoice on your festival and they did they dance they used to wait

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: For the rabbi the chief rabbi chief priest to come back from the pool of Siloam

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: With the water that he'd taken that he would pour on the altar the next day

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And they all looked forward to it so much that they danced all night

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And on one occasion on the last day nobody knows where the eighth day got from but there's a tradition that on the last day

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They're having such an amazing time that God said to them almost audibly my people

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm having such a wonderful time give me one more night

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can imagine they'll dead

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They've been doing this for seven nights and they get up and they get dancing again

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But the water is incredibly important. Do you want to say something about it?

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The priests of the water

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: What we're talking about here is all found in John 7 isn't it?

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is and it says quite clearly in the gospel

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: The James I think it is Jesus's brother

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Go goes up to the temple. Are you coming and Jesus stays away?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but then he turns up late and that's where he makes his references to the light and

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: There's also

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That if anyone thirsts let him come to me and drink this is reference to

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That wonderful idea that's when the high priest pours out the water on the altar

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It falls that's bit of water goes into the drainage system of the temple Mount and then travels out

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: through Jerusalem towards the Dead Sea and

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you have to go and reference yourself to Ezekiel

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: 47 is it or 48?

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: where

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The Ezekiel has this vision of water

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Trickling out of the temple which then becomes deeper and deeper until he can swim and brings life to the Dead Sea

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's this whole idea that Jesus says if you drink of this water not that water

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, then rivers of living water fresh water will come out of you

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So unless you understand Tabernacle's Festival

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's difficult to follow what Jesus was referring to. I mean you could pick up a lot but even more when you know

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It must be something more profound isn't it?

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It must be an extraordinary moment

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's all happening they're waving the branches and the kids are sitting on the parents shoulders and they're cheering and having an amazing time

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And then this silence falls as this man just walks to the front and has these amazing words to say

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: About what's actually the water is all about

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We used to do that in our church in Lancaster

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we used to take the water that had been put we used to pour it into bowls

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And we used to ask people would you like us?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you like some on your head sprinkled on your head on your clothes? What would you like?

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and would you like prayer and the children

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Won you spontaneously went and held the bowls

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: For them to do that and then we take the bowls the children all following with the bowls

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And pour it down the steps of the church, which was right in the city centre

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: As a symbol of what Jesus had said

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The three major festivals you've mentioned here Passover Pentecost and Tabernacles

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You've also mentioned that there are minor festivals

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're still significant festivals aren't they? What are some of those minor festivals?

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well the minor ones the one was the Feast of Trumpets which announces that

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Day of Atonement is coming so another little one is the Day of Atonement where it's the only fast commanded in the Bible

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: One day of fasting from food

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: In preparation in other words to come before God and confess your sins and repent

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the day of atonement, which then is followed by Tabernacles

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to go back as well to there's the Passover in spring

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Where obviously everybody's eating unleavened bread and it's a lot of fun

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But then there is Shibuot, which is Pentecost. I think we're very bad as Christians at celebrating Pentecost

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that festival happened exactly 50 days

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: After Passover and Jesus in the resurrection his resurrection body said to the disciples

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Wait go up to the Galilee and wait for power from on high

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Now they were already waiting because every good Jew would count from Passover with this big calendar

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They do what's called counting the Oma and they'd count down 50 49 48

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: To Shavuot, which was the spring harvest

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know you get to 10 9 8 and I can imagine

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But particularly for the disciples at that moment the excitement is all building up

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They must know he said wait something is going to happen at Shavuot

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And they all finally get to the temple together

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It actually I think the events of Pentecost take place in a room in the temple

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: The only place that would be big enough for them all

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and as the

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Traditional readings are read. They're all about Sinai and fire

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and thunder

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And noise lot of noise and I think the priest is reading this

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Well there and lo and behold it happens and the Holy Spirit comes

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this again was something that Jesus was pointing to when he said to the disciples wait for power

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It will come and I think they were expecting it

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And lo and behold it happened

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Just as he said

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: There are other subtle links to do with Pentecost of course Pentecost

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The original first one was at Sinai where the law was given

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And the scriptures Jeremiah speaks about an Ezekiel

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: God said he will send his spirit to write on our hearts his law

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So when you come to Pentecost when the spirit comes he's fulfilling

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: What Moses did on tablets of stone but now on the hearts of people

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So we can enter into that

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Spirit guiding us into keeping God's word in our lives

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other little link is you may remember in the Exodus story after Moses disappears in the mountain for some time

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They mess about

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: To the point where 3000 die in a plague

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this why

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There are 3000 people joined to the church on the day of Pentecost as a complete contrast

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: To the original one. There's now salvation for 3000

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And on the day of Pentecost. Why you know, I like those sort of links

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think some of those links help us understand why there's 300 converted in Pentecost

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It sort of ties the old and the new together in a way that says this isn't separate stories

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: This is one story and we're seeing God completing

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Something that he'd started or something that started in the exodus is now completed in Christ

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So we you know, I don't think those things are incidental

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, they're there for a purpose aren't they to help us tie the two bits of the story together as one

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Not one half of a story in a second half of a story

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: When we get to Passover, of course, we could go on forever about the links. Well, let's do that. So what I want to do is

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: some people

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Will know a couple of the little links for some of these festivals

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've just been talking about Pentecost. Let's just I know we can now go in a slight wrong order

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But Pentecost festival of first fruits. Is there anything else? We talked about, you know, the 3000 there but

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: A converted but is there anything else about Pentecost that would help us tie the two ends of the story together

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then let's look at Passover because I think Passover is one of those that

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The more people understand Passover the better it will help every week where we do Eucharist

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's just focus on on the Pentecost for a moment longer anything else that would just help us tie

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: together

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, that the Jewish festival the understanding of the Jewish festival and now how we understand Pentecost

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one little again subtle point is the speaking in tongues

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: On the day of Pentecost

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: This is reversing Babel

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: In the Old Testament where God confused the nations

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But of course the message of the Old Testament

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Is very clear Isaiah chapter 2 and Micah repeats it and elsewhere that a number of places

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially the famous one with Abraham God says through this nation through you Abraham and a Jewish

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: birthline

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I will bless all the nations

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: The speaking in tongues

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: On the day of Pentecost is another fine example of

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: God fulfilling his mission plan to reach the nations

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course it's a fulfillment of the prophet Joel

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Which includes women in prophesying and speaking

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is now an open door for women to be leaders

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: In the church and that's very interesting because

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They're allowed into the crucifixion

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they're not seen as a threat women are the women

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So there are women at the cross because they're not seen as a threat the romans don't see them as a threat

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: By the time we get past Pentecost

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And we start to read about the apostle Paul

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: When he wants to take captive the christians and throw them into prison

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He's talking about men and women it says in the new testament because by then because of Pentecost

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Women are now as much of a threat as the men in terms of preaching the gospel and spreading the news of christianity

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing. Do we do pivot to Passover?

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you know this i uh, let's be honest my first experience of Passover

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: was you both

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: leading Passover in norm to parish church where I was a young lad

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And that set me off on an adventure that by the time I got to theological college my old testament lecturer

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Kept teaching about the jewish festival of Passover and how it connected to Eucharist and Passover is so profound

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That we can't do it justice in this kind of conversation. You have to sit through one

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: To really see it but help us understand what was the jewish festival of Passover?

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What did they do and and how does Jesus come as a fulfillment of that incredible meal?

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's a big subject and it packs in an awful lot, but um the wonderful thing it's remembering

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's the idea of remembering

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: In the Passover service

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The word's actually say you should remember as if you were there

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: In Egypt under slavery and so when Jesus talks about remembering he's wanting far more

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Than just oh remember that Jesus died for you. He wants us to take ourselves back to that point where he had this meal with his friends

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Um the expectation is that every Jew

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Celebrating the Passover must feel as if they were absolutely there

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got so it's lived

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a festival has to be lived out. Which is why they eat bitter herbs

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And it does bring tears to your eyes

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's one point where you eat harpoid eggs in salt water and it's supposed to be the eyes

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and tears of your ancestors

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I mean it was so real to me as a child in my grandfather's house

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That um when he used to say oh we made bricks. It was terrible. I really believed he'd been that

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it must cut the story is supposed to come alive. It's in a book called the Haggadah, which means telling

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: um and which is the first half

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Um of of that of our a Passover service

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We do is the original manuscript that Jesus will have known and used

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: um we're talking about celebrating and how wonderful it is and

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: he um

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually said I've earnestly desired to celebrate this festival with you. He said to the disciples

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that always blows me away because i'm thinking no, he knows he's going to the cross

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: How can he earnestly want to have a party before he goes to the cross?

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But he did and and it's that wonderful ability of Jesus

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: to see

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he knew what lay ahead. He knew the crucifixion was coming

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but at the same time to rejoice and celebrate because it was part of God's plan

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Which makes the Passover for me so bittersweet

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: really

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's celebrated at home around the table usually not in a church

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We expand although there are many people now who are on their own in Judaism as well

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So most synagogues will have larger

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Passover celebrations and you go through the whole story of your ancestor suffering

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: In Egypt right through the plagues and so on. It's a service about being set free

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that that would have been exactly what Jesus would have been

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The message the the message

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But one interesting thing in the Passover there are four cups

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: There are always four cups of wine and at each time you say a prayer

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanksgiving blessed are you or Lord our God king of the universe who gives us the fruit of the vine

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the bit that's in the communion service. Jesus gave thanks

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the prayer he would have prayed in Hebrew

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's four and that's why some people get a bit confused in Luke's gospel

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It mentions wine and then bread

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it says after supper he took the cup

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And people say well Luke's got it the wrong way around. No, there are four cups of wine

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can have one before the bread

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are little details like that in the New Testament which just tell us that this really was a Passover meal

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just detail that that detail there. I remember you talking about this

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I must have been what 10 years old and I remember it

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So what you just said there was that the Jesus took the cup after the bread

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is that significant? What is that cup about?

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I've said a different meanings, didn't they that that is the it's the third cup

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: The each cup has got a name and the third one is the cup of blessing

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I giving thanks and at that point after you finished your dinner

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You break

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: The last piece of unleavened bread and Jesus does that and says this is my body

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's adding something very new to the normal breaking of the bread at the end of the Passover service

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: When the meal is finished and then you sing Psalms of blessing God

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: thanking him for who he is for even being a savior and so on

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's all those songs of blessing, which is why it's called the cup of blessing

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And Paul refers to it the cup of blessing which we bless

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ?

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: In in one Corinthians he mentions that so

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus is following the Passover service

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And but then adding this saying this is my blood which is given for you

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a something new for the disciples there. That's not been uttered before

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course the blood of the lamb

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Is the sacrificial symbol of the life being given up

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: In a sacrifice

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think Jesus left the disciples with an audio visual aid that they would remember forever

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Whenever they did the Passover

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They would remember

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think we're meant to remember and have communion much more often than that

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He said whenever you eat and drink do it

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And he didn't say have an argument over how to do it. He said just do it

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think at Passover especially

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a time when you cannot forget how Jesus used that service

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: To point them to what he was going to do and why he was going to do it

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He was going to give his life for the entire world would you want for Gentile?

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes we disguise these very simple straightforward stories of Jesus doing a Passover

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean because we've gone to the Greek word Eucharist Eucharist is to mean to give thanks

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're celebrating that Jesus gave thanks

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's called the Eucharistic prayer the Thanksgiving prayer

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we take communion, but that's because the third cup is the giving thanks cup

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: There's another interesting little one and that is the fourth cup is called the cup of judgment

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the more ominous word Roth is used there

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But the cup of judgment is in this Passover service. There's a prayers taken from the Psalms Lord

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Would you deal with the countries the nations that oppress us?

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The tyrants that oppress us and of course

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The Pharaoh was a tyrant

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a prayer there that God would bring judgment on great evil

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Not minor evil, but big stuff

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And in the garden it's interesting that the gospels record Jesus

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: prayed

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Take this cup from me

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But if not

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Then Jesus goes so in that sense we understand well

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that Jesus is drinking the fourth cup the cup of judgment

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And standing in for us and he is

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The sacrificed lamb

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: On our behalf

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So if anybody's listening to this and they've not really realized what we're talking about here

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: What we're saying is the Jewish festivals that Jesus lived through on the people of God live through

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: With inscription we see them reenacted in Christ, you know, Jesus lives them out. He calls himself the light

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He talks about the water. He is the Passover. He is the bread. He is the wine

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So actually these festivals become lived experiences for Jesus and his people

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: um

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to just before we finish I want I'd love to talk to you about Yom Kippur

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So one of you could we describe them as one of the more minor festivals

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But a number of years ago I was in I was in Ohio of all places at Yom Kippur

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And it just so happened my friend's knock store neighbor was a Jew

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were going to the synagogue for

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: The day of attainment. So I was allowed to go and joined them. So I actually went to what was probably a three hour

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: service at the synagogue and

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I I really enjoyed it a lot of it. I couldn't understand because it was not in English

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was really thoroughly interesting

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: What can you tell us about the day of attainment or what can you tell us about Yom Kippur this festival?

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it does relate to Jesus as well, doesn't it?

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Firstly, let's remember that the prophet Isaiah in

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Isaiah 43 said I

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: forgive your sins

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And remember them no more. So forgiveness predates

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the fundamentals of God's character is that he forgives sin if we turn to him in repentance

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so of course the day of

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yom Kippur is is really

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Saying Lord, I need salvation

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an annual recognition of that fact

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Your memories of Yom Kippur. Oh gosh, I think they're the toughest

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the toughest day in the Jewish calendar. It's a day of mourning

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a day of fasting

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody eats from for 24 old drinks

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: For 24 hours and there was always somebody fainting in the synagogue

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet it was hugely significant

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't fully understand it as a child. I have to say and I don't know that my parents did but for many Jewish people

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That is the significant moment because there are no longer sacrifices in the temple

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean the sacrifices in the temple were supposed to deal with the people's sin and failure

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And then once the temple was destroyed in 80 70. They were no more and so all you had was this one day

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That you kept where all your sins had to be forgiven

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it I think it's a lot of Jewish people see it as a trial rather than fully understanding

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the concept

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's tough and I think when I when I became a Christian

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And the whole thing fell into place for me

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The that there was a permanent day of atonement one sacrifice for all

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: In all time Jesus had done the job forever

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a tremendous release for me

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There are still times when I think I want to identify

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: With my own family and fast with them

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they do sometimes they don't really

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But there is such a joy in knowing

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That that festival particularly was fulfilled in the work that Jesus did in on the cross once and for all

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what struck me. So as they talked about the

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: The escape goat

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And how they would place their sin onto the escape go and they'd let this escape go go out into the wilderness

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we do in Jesus. We we come we bring us in before him who becomes our escape goat

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what really struck me is that Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the day of atonement

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that that event on the cross

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And it says that he in Gethsemane he went out and it was night

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think those few words are very significant that he went out into a

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: horribly barren place a bit like the desert the escape goat going into the desert to fulfill

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: What he had to do and of course your your point there is Isaiah 53

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That he laid on him iniquities the sins of it's all

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's fulfilled in that

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: festival

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: When we remember that Jesus is

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the sacrifice

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Romans is it Romans three where oh dear my memory. Uh, Jesus is the

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Sacrificial lamb. Yeah, it is. Yeah

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do I think one of the things that really strikes me as I learn more and more about

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: The rhythms of the Jewish festivals just how much Jesus comes as fulfillment

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He is that one that pulls together all of these threads and in him

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Brings the the conclusion or the solution or the means to how we live out those festivals still today. Yeah, yeah

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus makes it clear I came to fulfill the law not a dot

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Nor an iota not the smallest letter of the law will be removed

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fulfillment of it isn't just about

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: ethical obedience. It's about

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Us beginning to realize what was all that about

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and it comes clear

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Michelle, thank you so much for talking to me about this particular topic if anybody wants to find more

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Or understand more where can they go? How can they find you and some of the things that you've written about?

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a website

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: www

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And um, I wrote a book called the heavenly party

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Keeping true to this whole idea of celebration that has a Passover service in it and a tabernacle

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Service based on the one we did at our church

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and how to celebrate

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The christian festivals better by learning from me including Christmas including Christmas

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's reclaim the pagan ones

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And celebrate them as they should be celebrated. And and also, um

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll find links to certain websites. There was a spring harvest

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Um a video we did on communion. That's on youtube

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's on youtube a lot of background there

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and um also

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah just on the website you will find you can download free

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the things that i've been talking about

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant. Well, we'll make sure I link those in the notes to the episode. So thank you peter michelle

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for this episode. I know we're going to film the film another one now

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But for anybody listening come back next week as we continue this conversation peter michelle. Thank you so much

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, every blessing