219. Do We Have To be Devided On The Big Issues?

[00:00:08] Welcome to another episode of Making Disciples. My name is Chris Rogers and I am your host

[00:00:13] And it's so lovely to spend this time with you on this podcast. Now today this episode is

[00:00:19] This is the last episode that I'm recording before my summer break before I go on vacation

[00:00:26] And I want to to spend a bit of time just reflecting on how we behave towards each other as Christians in terms of

[00:00:38] What do we agree and what do we disagree on and one of the things I've noticed and you know it's as you get older you notice things that have always been there, but you've never really noticed them before

[00:00:48] But all the things that I was really struck me just over the last couple of years is just how polarizing people end up becoming in that we end up with

[00:01:01] This is what we believe in this church and if you don't agree with this then go to another church. These very kind of polarizing views on things

[00:01:11] And actually when I look at the life of Jesus, yes Jesus has very clear teaching and clear ideas on stuff

[00:01:22] It was at the same time Jesus just speak into unity and he speaks into the importance of unity

[00:01:30] And there are times when we are just not going to agree on something but whatever reason, however we've read or interpreted something

[00:01:39] You know we're just not going to agree on this and we end up saying, well beyond unity

[00:01:48] We need to focus on agreeing agreeing is more important on things than unity and unity can only happen when we all agree on this thing

[00:01:58] The end up with churches where there are unity together because they are agree on the same thing

[00:02:03] I think that is unity, unity and particularly kingdom unity or global Christianity

[00:02:10] I don't think all the traditions and tribes and congregations of Christians are all you know we're not going to agree on everything

[00:02:18] And unity then has say well what is unity is it all agreeing on a theological line

[00:02:24] Or is it all agreeing on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and everything else we're working it out

[00:02:29] So that's what I want to just think about today reflect on a little bit around you know what is important to us

[00:02:36] What is important to us so I hope this is interesting

[00:02:40] I've got so much I could say on this, I'm just kind of picking and choosing a few thoughts and reflections really

[00:02:46] And so you know I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, what would you add, what would you take away

[00:02:51] What would you agree with me on, what would you disagree with me on I think I would love to hear from you

[00:02:56] So it's diving as we think a little bit around division, you know I haven't got to snap your time to listen

[00:03:03] Division around polarizing theologies or polarizing the views

[00:03:07] As we discussed this, I pray it would be really helpful

[00:03:09] So let's jump in and explore this topic a little bit together

[00:03:22] Let me start with this, I would argue friends that we at this time live in a very polarizing world

[00:03:32] And we are quite happy to drift to the far right or the far left

[00:03:42] What do I mean by that?

[00:03:43] Well, I know a lot of people on my stay in East London

[00:03:48] And rather than holding a middle ground

[00:03:51] End up wanting to hold a far right or a far left view

[00:03:56] No, after when we talk about far right

[00:03:58] We use that in terms of ideological er, a political ideology

[00:04:01] I don't quite mean it like that or that is a part of it

[00:04:05] But it's this idea of this polarisation where we're pushing in one direction

[00:04:09] Or the other, we're living in a world more and more

[00:04:12] That behaves and functions out of these polarizing views

[00:04:16] And I get, I'm concerned about that as a Christian

[00:04:22] Not only to come with Christian perspective, just from the world

[00:04:25] You know, the more we push into polarising views

[00:04:28] The more we end up demonising and dehumanising others

[00:04:35] So we live in a polarising world and we see this polarisation happening

[00:04:38] Yes, in our politics, we see it in our political view

[00:04:41] And right now we would say that there is definitely a growth in the far right

[00:04:46] Politically across Europe

[00:04:48] And that is concerning in many ways

[00:04:53] And that is something that does worry us just that growth of far right

[00:04:59] Well, what does that mean for society as we know it's a political views

[00:05:03] Yes, there is a polarisation on identity

[00:05:09] And wherever you sit on the field, a line around sexuality

[00:05:16] Or where you sit around transgender rights, LGBTQ plus and more

[00:05:24] There is this polarisation where we end up saying

[00:05:28] If you don't agree with me, then you are, you know, it's obviously

[00:05:35] If you don't agree with me, then you're the devil

[00:05:36] That's almost what I've witnessed and seen

[00:05:39] If you don't agree with me, then you are homophobic

[00:05:44] Or you are transphobic

[00:05:46] So we have this polarisation in our politics, we have it in our identity politics

[00:05:52] We saw it in COVID just around how people responded to COVID

[00:05:59] In this polarising view of this real was this not kind of stuff

[00:06:04] And when I middle the pandemic, somebody stopped me in the street

[00:06:09] And they shouted at me and they said that was colluding with Satan

[00:06:12] Because we closed the church doors because I had been told I had to

[00:06:16] I didn't choose to, I was told when my health perspective we had to close the doors

[00:06:21] What I experienced was the church became more alive than ever as we served our neighborhood

[00:06:25] And we cared for the vulnerable

[00:06:28] But what we saw in that was this polarisation around this particular topic

[00:06:32] And then you know what happened in that situation was one particular person

[00:06:36] And there was a lot of people in the street who had to do this

[00:06:38] And that's what polarisation does in dehumanizers

[00:06:42] It offers someone else

[00:06:44] And it ends up saying I'm right and you are not just wrong

[00:06:48] You are the worst kind of wrong

[00:06:50] That's what polarisation does

[00:06:52] And I want to call as away from that behaviour

[00:06:57] Because I believe that the way of Jesus

[00:07:01] Jesus had views but the primary focus of his life was to love and care for people

[00:07:09] And he would gather people around him

[00:07:12] Those that were often seen as out outside of the religious lines

[00:07:19] I don't think you are uniting understanding a good theology of unity

[00:07:22] And this is really important

[00:07:23] So unity is not as all agreeing friends

[00:07:27] Unity is disagreeing and still wanting the very best for someone else

[00:07:35] Unity is saying I do not agree with you on that issue

[00:07:38] But we are one in Jesus Christ

[00:07:41] So even though you may know a agree on that we can agree on Jesus

[00:07:45] Christ

[00:07:45] So all the things I love about the conference that I'm about the leadership of Spring Harvest

[00:07:50] We are across denominational conference

[00:07:53] We have people from churches that are very different in theology in practice

[00:07:59] But Spring Harvest

[00:08:02] Gather together and Jesus to say we are unified in the name of Jesus Christ

[00:08:06] And the mission of Jesus

[00:08:08] And we put to one side our separate theologies

[00:08:12] And political views

[00:08:14] Because we want to come behind Jesus Christ

[00:08:17] And I love that

[00:08:18] Unity in the church around Jesus

[00:08:20] Not disunity around politics, ideas, politics, theological politics

[00:08:27] Theological lines, you know all that stuff

[00:08:30] We are not going to demonize the other because they don't agree with me on this issue

[00:08:34] And just in this last year friends

[00:08:36] Earlier this year

[00:08:38] Came across people who didn't want to be in a particular church

[00:08:43] Because someone thought differently to them on a particular issue

[00:08:48] The particular issue was around women in leadership

[00:08:53] And that church did not have a woman in leadership

[00:08:57] Not because they couldn't have

[00:09:00] Just like didn't have they had women around the church who were leaders

[00:09:04] But not the main leader

[00:09:05] And even though

[00:09:07] Actually the main leader was male

[00:09:11] And there were women leaders around which didn't seem to bother them

[00:09:15] Just the idea that somebody in the church disagreed with them on this

[00:09:22] They didn't even believe in the church on that issue

[00:09:24] So they left because somebody else thought differently on an issue

[00:09:29] They went acting differently on an issue

[00:09:30] They just felt differently on the issue

[00:09:32] And it offended them so much

[00:09:33] They left the church

[00:09:35] On this particular topic you just think

[00:09:38] Actually

[00:09:40] I find it interesting when somebody would leave a church

[00:09:43] Because of what they think somebody thinks

[00:09:45] Rather than any reality

[00:09:49] Friends, I can disagree with you

[00:09:53] And I can still want the very best for you

[00:09:57] I can disagree with you on something

[00:10:00] But I can still champion you

[00:10:03] And I can still encourage you

[00:10:05] Because we are brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ

[00:10:09] So I may sit next to somebody

[00:10:12] In church

[00:10:13] So when else is church

[00:10:15] And I may not agree with the person on my left or my right on a particular issue

[00:10:19] But I can champion them

[00:10:22] I can love them

[00:10:23] I can encourage them

[00:10:24] I can hug them

[00:10:26] I can hold them

[00:10:27] Because they are a brother or sister in Jesus Christ

[00:10:30] We don't need to agree on everything

[00:10:32] And one of the things that I want to really champion

[00:10:35] Is what you would describe a friend

[00:10:36] Generous orthodoxy

[00:10:38] A genital orthodoxy

[00:10:39] I have my views on particular topics

[00:10:43] I hold my view in my view

[00:10:46] I don't expect everybody around me to agree with me on those topics

[00:10:52] But I hold a generous orthodoxy that chooses to say

[00:10:56] Well I have this view

[00:10:57] And you have that view

[00:10:58] I choose to love you and care for you

[00:11:02] Because of unity in Jesus Christ

[00:11:04] I treat a whole Jew because of the unity we have

[00:11:07] In Jesus Christ

[00:11:08] Jesus is the fundamental one that I cling on to

[00:11:12] As the defining

[00:11:14] Plum line of my faith

[00:11:17] Other ethical issues

[00:11:18] Leadership issues within the wider church

[00:11:21] I choose to hold my view

[00:11:23] And love others

[00:11:24] That may disagree with me

[00:11:25] Because I think unity

[00:11:27] Unity is central

[00:11:29] Unity is key for the church of Jesus Christ

[00:11:33] Not this unity

[00:11:37] And you think as I'd say

[00:11:38] It's for some people more than their theology

[00:11:41] I think they're more than their political ideology

[00:11:46] And I think they are certainly more than their sexuality

[00:11:50] And we can disagree with somebody on an

[00:11:54] On a particular topic

[00:11:55] But we can still love them

[00:11:58] Champion them

[00:11:59] Care for them

[00:12:01] Long to be their brother and sister in Christ

[00:12:03] I think that is this is central to what it looks like to be the church of Jesus Christ.

[00:12:10] The church of Jesus Christ does not mean everybody agrees on absolutely everything

[00:12:15] and therefore we have the unity together.

[00:12:18] It's the church, the unified, wrong, Jesus Christ.

[00:12:21] And to say, we choose to hold everything else together in love, unity.

[00:12:28] And I would argue friends that love transcends beyond agreement on issues.

[00:12:34] So I've had friends that we have just not agreed with on worship.

[00:12:38] We've just not agreed with on litigy.

[00:12:41] We've just not agreed with on a verse with the song.

[00:12:45] We've just not agreed with how a sermon landed or we just not agreed with

[00:12:49] how we would deal with a pastoral situation.

[00:12:53] But the reality is love transcends beyond all these agreements and disagreements.

[00:12:58] We don't fragment, we don't keep fragmenting over smaller, smaller things.

[00:13:02] We choose to have unity together on it all.

[00:13:08] So when we look at the world, the world is polarising more and more on political issues,

[00:13:15] ideologies, phyologies, understandings of all.

[00:13:18] And I would say the opposite is the kingdom.

[00:13:20] The kingdom does not pull us apart.

[00:13:23] The kingdom pulls us together and says, you may not all agree, but we agree on Jesus Christ.

[00:13:30] And we love each other, no matter what we choose to work together through the disagreements that we have.

[00:13:37] And I think this is really what unity in the kingdom looks like, unity in the kingdom.

[00:13:44] And I did say in a minute ago, I'll say again, unity is not as old-grearing.

[00:13:50] Unity is not all agreeing, unity is disagreeing, and still wanting the very best for someone else.

[00:13:58] Let's take a little sit.

[00:14:00] So let me just look at a couple of passages just to point this out to you.

[00:14:03] The Ephesians 423, the university in diversity, unity in diversity,

[00:14:08] be completely humble and gentle, be patient, bearing with one another in love,

[00:14:12] make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace.

[00:14:17] If we are polarizing on issues and topics, pulling away there's no place for me there because you don't agree with me

[00:14:25] on 100% of the things that I believe. Actually, we're not unity in diversity.

[00:14:31] I think this is a real kingdom idea, unity in diversity. The world, it is unity, unity,

[00:14:39] having polarised and polarised and polarised into a little subcategorism groups.

[00:14:46] The kingdom says unity in diversity, and the way we do that,

[00:14:50] process, we do it by, we do it by being humble.

[00:14:55] Being humble, this is my view, you know, I really believe it. I've read it, I've researched it,

[00:15:01] thought about it, but I'm choosing to be humble because I might have still got it wrong,

[00:15:07] convinced by it, I'm aware that I may have just got it wrong. And then he says,

[00:15:11] I'm a gentle, just because I don't agree with you on something, does not mean I've got the right

[00:15:18] to argue my corner and twist your arm into believing what I believe, humble and gentle.

[00:15:27] In the constant use, unity is be patient, bear with one another in love,

[00:15:33] hold one another, to get a work with one another, making every effort to keep unity in the spirit

[00:15:40] through the bond of peace. I think kingdom unity is actually when we say, I totally committed to what

[00:15:48] I believe, but I'm humble and say, I really think one day I might have realized I've got it wrong.

[00:15:54] So I am not going to character assassinate anybody else or argue with anybody else. I'm going

[00:15:59] to say, I'm not going to be a little less than because I may one day look back and think, gosh,

[00:16:05] you've got that wrong. One Corinthians 13, two says, this love, I call it love above knowledge.

[00:16:14] If they have the gift of prophecy, can father of all the mysteries and all knowledge,

[00:16:20] and if I have a faith that can be mounted but do not have love, I am nothing. So you're

[00:16:25] friends, love is more important than being right about every theological issue.

[00:16:32] Paul says, you might have the gift of prophecy, you might have to father more than the

[00:16:36] mysteries, you might know it all and if you have faith that can move mountains great, but if you don't

[00:16:42] love each other then actually you aren't anything. In other words, you can be so right, but yet at

[00:16:48] same time, so unloving. So right and so unloving. I think one of the key things about your

[00:16:58] unity in the church is saying, I think I'm so right but loving you is more important to me

[00:17:05] than being completely right. So I'm going to choose to love you and hold what I think and kind

[00:17:15] hold it in such a way that I have integrity with what I believe but I am not using it to

[00:17:20] smother somebody else. I want to love them and want the best for them. John 17, 2023, there's

[00:17:28] a whole prayer there you could have a read. It's a Jesus' prayer unity. It just says in there that

[00:17:34] all of the maybe one father just as you in me and I am in you. Jesus unity is being won with each other.

[00:17:45] Jesus is not the father, the father is not Jesus, the spirit is not the father and the spirit

[00:17:50] is not Jesus, Jesus is not the spirit. Three entities but one to all those three entities, well because

[00:17:58] it's God, the answer is well yes they will all agree on every thought of the length of the God

[00:18:03] but there are different entities and different persons each person does something different in the same

[00:18:10] way unity is difference that comes together under one thing. Unity among believers was a key

[00:18:18] priority for Jesus and I think it really should be for us and then cautious three, 13 to 14

[00:18:24] forgiveness and love it says this bear with one another and forgive one another if any of you have

[00:18:31] agreed and have grievance against one another, forgive as the Lord has forgiven you. Never

[00:18:36] all these virtues put on love which binds them altogether in perfect unity so love is a key factor

[00:18:42] here for unity and so the giving others is a key factor here in unity. Now in all of these

[00:18:51] passages it doesn't say unity is when you all agree with each other. It's just not the reality

[00:18:56] of life and if a whole church does agree I would argue that either that's a dictatorship or

[00:19:02] it's just that you've kicked out anybody that would fear to disagree and therefore everybody just

[00:19:08] agrees because they have to agree. Oh it's just a self-selected group of people. Disagreement

[00:19:14] is part of being human, growing, reflecting, learning, thinking ourselves, developing our own

[00:19:23] theology on the standing of who God is is a key thing so therefore loving each other,

[00:19:28] unifying each other with the love of Jesus Christ and around Jesus I don't have to agree with

[00:19:33] everybody and everything but I can still choose to love. So forgiveness and love I key to maintaining

[00:19:38] relationships despite whatever differences we might have. So as we just continue to think a bit

[00:19:47] this while I've got some practical pointers that I would love to point out for us. Now some people

[00:19:52] at this point are Yekris but Yekris but there are things that are right and there are things that

[00:19:57] and people just need to know what is right. They just need to know what is right. Whoa whoa whoa whoa

[00:20:02] are you that confident in what you think that you're you're so committed to what you think

[00:20:08] you're so, so right that there is not just that moment of breath is other use of that I

[00:20:13] I could have got something wrong. We have to be really careful this is the humility and gentleness

[00:20:20] comes in. Yes there are things that are going to be right or wrong because God has all dain some

[00:20:26] things to be right or wrong and we are learning to try and work out what those are but let's not

[00:20:32] beat each other up in the process of working out what those are and we're not going to help anybody

[00:20:37] by beating anybody up by trying to bite hit them with what you would pursue because it's your

[00:20:43] right the already. I am very committed to my interpretation of scripture I would hold to a more

[00:20:51] conservative view of many issues found in scripture and I have a clear fund I'm a fundamentalist

[00:20:57] in the sense that my greatest fundamental is love. Love is greater than everything else when you

[00:21:03] read scriptures clear loving each other is a key fundamental and I do hold a concept of theology

[00:21:09] of many issues but I really think that my way of caring for people that I don't agree with

[00:21:16] is not to force them to think what I think but choose to listen to learn to reflect and to understand

[00:21:25] where they're coming from and in unity with Jesus Christ learn together that's purely you know what it

[00:21:30] is. I remember having this conversation with someone around women in leadership I hold to a view

[00:21:36] that as I read scripture it seems to me that Paul actually uses women in leadership in fact as you

[00:21:47] in scripture. I you know for me I hear dear to what the scripture is talking about so

[00:21:52] well scripture for me there is this liberation of women in there so I'm like actually women

[00:21:56] can't believe as I see this I see Paul growing leaders like Phoebe and Lydia people are

[00:22:04] becoming decons and decons and deconsers in the church and so I have these views

[00:22:10] would I choose to say some of the else's of questions because they're agree with me on that issue but no that's

[00:22:16] that's all because I want to hear I want to learn I want to understand how you have

[00:22:21] be the else think so how do we do this how do we learn to have unity where we can agree to disagree

[00:22:26] well where we can love each other and hold our own techities and others generous orthodoxy

[00:22:33] towards each other. So I think you know I think you've been able to disagree with the distance between

[00:22:38] some of the essentials you know what is the most essential for you and and what are you

[00:22:43] willing to say actually I'm you know we don't have to go into anything else for me it's Jesus' death

[00:22:50] and resurrection and you know hold the onto his scripture and you know everything I'm just

[00:22:56] I mean Lord I want to learn I want to learn and I think one of the things that I want to practice is

[00:23:01] what I've described as as active listening I want to understand others perspectives

[00:23:08] and others responses and others disagreements on someone who's not want to listen so I think one of

[00:23:14] the key things to be somebody who's working for unity through love in the church I think these

[00:23:19] people who listen really well not of the arrogance to shut arguments down and to tell people they're wrong

[00:23:26] I think he's a lesson well to each other this is on all sides and all corners you've got to listen

[00:23:33] to each other well we need to find common ground you to focus on shared beliefs shared values

[00:23:41] and build on the foundations that we have that is Jesus Christ we we find the common ground

[00:23:46] and we work from there let's look for what we disagree with let's look at what we agree on

[00:23:52] I want to champion a what you would describe as a both and thinking we have to recognize friends

[00:24:00] sometimes a seemingly controversial contradictory views can both contain truth and sometimes

[00:24:10] that it's a both-an situation like both are true like we're else in the world would you say both

[00:24:17] things can be true at the same time we we as Christians can hold together

[00:24:24] numbers of truths that are just true and we have to kind of hold these together so having a

[00:24:31] view that's called you describe as a both-an thinking I think this and I think this at the same time

[00:24:38] I think this is right but I also think this is right holding these things together are really important

[00:24:45] and I think we need to embrace what I would describe as embracing intellectual humility

[00:24:53] we have to acknowledge that our understanding is limited and that we could just be wrong

[00:24:59] that I'm not going to be so adamant on something because actually I might just be wrong

[00:25:06] so having what I describe is intellectual humility still willing to learn

[00:25:13] I also think we need to create safe spaces for people to have conversations and dialogue

[00:25:18] fostering environments where we can have these open discussions

[00:25:23] I would not I never preached controversial topics on the pulpit on the Sunday because it's just

[00:25:33] deal with individual views you got I'm much happier to discuss difficult topics and small

[00:25:39] groups are one-on-one because then you can actually deal with each person's approach to

[00:25:46] whatever it is that you want to talk about I remember a little while ago I preached on creation

[00:25:53] care and somebody who was a flat there was a part of our church and they wanted me to preach

[00:26:01] on this topic I said I'm not going to do it because I can see that this is going to be a divisive

[00:26:07] issue for you I would rather do one-on-one with you I'd rather sit down with you other loving

[00:26:13] humble conversation with you on this topic creating space for dialogue and I was able to say to them

[00:26:20] you tell me where where do you get the truth what makes you think this is the case and how do

[00:26:26] we'd scripture to get to that particular place and how do you understand the world for

[00:26:30] it's that particular place so having safe spaces for conversations I would say sermons are not

[00:26:35] the place Sunday morning so leaving gatherings up a place I have actually smaller groups and one

[00:26:40] on one our place is where you can have difficult conversations particularly over polarizing topics

[00:26:47] I would always prioritize relationships over being right friends you can win an argument

[00:26:53] and you can lose a friend we're an argument and you can lose a friend I would rather keep

[00:26:59] friendship and keep listening and keep speaking in gently than to be right so we're an argument

[00:27:06] what's the use of friend but I want to be able to prioritize relationships with people

[00:27:15] long-term relationships where I can keep holding them keep loving them keep speaking in

[00:27:20] than winning the argument today and never been able to speak to them again so I prioritise relationships

[00:27:27] I always seek the best in other people's views one of the things I experienced recently was I heard

[00:27:32] two Christians speaking on a very polarizing topic and one of them I would say demonized

[00:27:40] the other person and and really seemed to be a haverziff the other Christian had that view

[00:27:48] because they were wanting to take Christianity down or they had some bitter bitter thing that they

[00:27:53] were fighting against the truth and I hear that I just don't see that's what's happening right here

[00:27:58] we have to be able to seek the best out of everybody else's views like people have that

[00:28:04] view not because they're being bitter they can have that view because they have a little different

[00:28:08] view it's just different so I think we need to be able to hold a charitableness towards each other

[00:28:16] you know we're different opinions we have to assume good intentions I don't think it does

[00:28:22] us any good to assume bad intentions now it may well be that there is bad intentions being played out

[00:28:28] but I choose to what we've good intentions it's always benefited me I've always benefited from

[00:28:34] learning from different perspectives as well approaching disagreements by saying like I want to learn

[00:28:40] I want to understand they want to see where where you are coming from on this I want to practice

[00:28:46] gracious disagreements and it's really important at the moment with these polarizing views

[00:28:53] practicing gracious disagreement just because me and you might disagree on something does not mean

[00:28:59] that we can't be friends it also doesn't mean that I can't champion you and I can't love you and

[00:29:05] experience this before many times where I might have disagreed with somebody and because we're

[00:29:12] disagreeed on a particular topic that's not really minus of that personal end of defending me

[00:29:19] take you know stop texting me they start ghosting me because we just we don't agree and

[00:29:24] I think that's because people think if we disagree then you don't like me and you don't want

[00:29:30] for me in fact you are harmed for me like what I mean I remember being Covid I disagree with

[00:29:35] somebody on a mask where I was wearing masks is personal nowhere masks and I said look I'm

[00:29:41] going to choose to wear a mask you don't have to but yeah this is me and they were so so

[00:29:47] arguments who would be the actually this person decide they really thought because we disagree on

[00:29:53] this we could never speak again because we don't agree on a mask we don't speak again friends

[00:29:59] that person has not spoken to me since it has been three years not spoken to me and I would love

[00:30:05] to speak with them I'd love for a standard conversation because for me I don't need to disregard

[00:30:12] somebody because we don't agree with each other in fact some of the people that I disagree with

[00:30:16] the most I want to love the most rather than cut them off so I want to practice gracious disagreement

[00:30:23] we are my disagree respectfully inclined like whilst at the same time

[00:30:28] I still wanted to encourage them to champion them to love them to pray for them to wish them

[00:30:32] back-wrest, help them with life to achieve the most that they can achieve so I want to be able

[00:30:38] to behave like this where you go don't agree but I'm going to do everything to make sure your

[00:30:43] life thrives and that is so country to how the world works in a culture that is council

[00:30:51] culture we don't agree then I cancel you that is so unking done a few of the thoughts really

[00:31:00] I want to cultivate curiosity I want to be asking questions always learning always growing

[00:31:06] I want to recognize the limits of human understanding particularly accepting some of my

[00:31:13] theological mysteries you know how you might read the book of Revelation

[00:31:18] who would be in heaven who would be in hell you know similarly think of it like guys this is the biggest

[00:31:23] I what God is going to do is out of my control I can't wait to see what he does

[00:31:31] and I want to recognize that my humanness means I'm limited in my understanding so I can't

[00:31:37] wait to see what God does and one of the things I want to make sure that I'm praying for as unity

[00:31:43] at unity around Jesus not around polarizing topics I want to have a church friends that's filled

[00:31:50] full of people that disagree on those big topics big polarizing topics that can be unified around

[00:31:55] Jesus Christ because that is a symbol of the kingdom of God we do not all have to agree on everything

[00:32:01] and that's the kind of church that I long to lead a church where we can sit side by side

[00:32:07] people that we don't agree with but because of Jesus we can sit side by side unity together

[00:32:14] and then I want to pray for unity one of the things I would say to all of us is a particular

[00:32:22] of your somebody who does argue quite polarizing ideas on certain topics I would say it's

[00:32:31] worth studying church history and learn how Christianity over the last two thousand years have

[00:32:36] navigated differences in unity on topics and just seeing how different traditions of

[00:32:43] carbs know how different denominations of dealt with things and very often it has just been

[00:32:48] fragmenting fragmenting fragmenting which is a very human way of responding to disagreement

[00:32:54] but where the church has been able to be unified on Jesus not unified on as all agreeing that's

[00:33:03] where I think the blessing is the blessing is when you get a thousand hundred people in the

[00:33:08] room we all disagree on every possible topic yet where you define on Jesus Christ there is a blessing

[00:33:14] in that place that's true unity when you are we are all very different so Chris what you're saying

[00:33:24] what are you saying Chris I'd say this look friends the world really is fragmenting and polarizing

[00:33:32] it's polarizing on so many topics that it's like divide and conquer divide and conquer

[00:33:38] and that is not the way that the kingdom of God I think as disciples of Jesus we must be careful

[00:33:47] of holding on to polarizing views that will just separate us out I think I'm really trying to

[00:33:54] underline that unity is not about agreeing on every issue but unity is disagreeing

[00:33:59] and still wanting to very best for someone else and I want to champion a church that can hold

[00:34:05] everyone with every different view and yet we are still unified in Jesus why as this come up why

[00:34:13] is this something I wanted to cover before I went on holiday oh I would say this in the last six

[00:34:17] months I've been in the room more and more with people who are polarizing I cannot be in the

[00:34:24] literally heard somebody who said they could not be in the lecture room with somebody lecturing

[00:34:32] who had a different theological view as them on a particular issue because they said they just

[00:34:38] couldn't be in the room with them because they held a different view I'm like come on guys if that's

[00:34:43] going to be the case we're all going to be in separate classrooms we're all going to be in separate

[00:34:47] classrooms we we need to have the unity that we find in Ephesians for humble gentle patient

[00:34:56] barely with one another making every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of

[00:35:00] me choring enough to be in the room with somebody that disagrees with you on a top-rate but still

[00:35:05] can love you because of the way of Jesus Christ the way of Jesus the body of Christ being

[00:35:11] this diverse body and people wow that's a lot kind of look at and I would love you to

[00:35:21] I'd love to hear your thoughts on this to go on this at rabbi rojas on twitter at rabbi rojas

[00:35:27] on instagram do you think we can live like this do you think the church could be a unified

[00:35:33] body all together not because of what's different about us because what is same about us do you

[00:35:40] think that it's possible I'd love to hear that from you and if I would love to pray that for us now

[00:35:45] let me just pray father god the world is fragmenting more or more and breaking down into smaller sub

[00:35:55] categories and people and ideas and all that is doing is it's making your church weaker and weaker

[00:36:02] and weaker as we fragment and fragment and fragment and fragment and lot I want to say no to that

[00:36:09] lot I dream a we dream of a church that can be filled full of people who can agree to disagree

[00:36:18] can agree to love each other through disagreements a church where we can wish each other well

[00:36:24] where we can champion each other love each other support each other speaking to each other's

[00:36:30] that I'd love even though we don't agree we can do that because we love each other because we're all

[00:36:35] children of god oh your kids therefore we want the best for each other so a lot may we be people

[00:36:43] of unity humble gentle patient bear with one another making every effort for unity through the

[00:36:51] underpiece would that be true for us would that be who we are and would the world know

[00:36:59] who Jesus is because of that unity that makes us so radically different we pray that in the

[00:37:06] powerful name of Jesus and all the saints said oh man friends are tonnex time greater peace

[00:37:12] and I will catch you with you soon