214. TheTruth In True Crime with Jim Warner Wallace Part 2

[00:00:08] Hello friends welcome to another episode of Making Disciples. My name is Chris and I am your host and today's episode is part two to our interview with Jim Warner Wallace And we're gonna be talking this week much more about his new but the truth in true crime

[00:00:23] One of the things I love about his book He brings really intriguing true crime mysteries from his career in Los Angeles as a detective He then brings some insightful you could describe it as a life axe

[00:00:40] That are really interesting contemporary research and investigations into ways that you can make your life better Better decisions, but then what he does is he also pivots in it and he's exploring evidence In the Bible

[00:00:57] How would scriptress true, how is accurate and how he applies to our lives It's kind of bringing all those things to go. It's brilliant. It's just absolutely brilliant

[00:01:05] So I hope you enjoy this second part of my interview with Jim Warner Wallace do pick up a copy of his book Don't forget to subscribe if you haven't yet, but let's dive in with an interview with Jim Warner Wallace

[00:01:29] Well, that feels like a really good moment to pivot because if that's true and Jesus rose from the grave The invitation now is to live our lives for him, which is what you've been writing about in your new book

[00:01:44] And what if things I love about your new book is You put faith, Jesus, Colcaes, all together And as somebody who is a huge fan of Colcaes on the Colcaes stuff on Netflix and on Amazon You bring all of this together and you see you make faith

[00:02:05] So interesting Because you're bringing all of these aspects of your career and how we now live as disciples together And one of the other loved about this book So if we just pivot and then talk about truth in true crime I have to ask the question

[00:02:23] This book is so different to the things that you've written about before Why did you write this? Why do you just keep doing what you've always done? Well, okay, so I fell into the other stuff

[00:02:36] This is the stuff that matters to me. I've been wanting to write this book for many years But what happened was I was serving as a youth pastor and I was finishing up as a youth pastor getting ready to plan to church

[00:02:48] And I was on a trip, I mean, maybe I'd already planned to the church and I was just gone back to just help out Sean McDowl Who's an Apologist? His dad is Josh McDowl and he was at the time a high school teacher

[00:02:59] And he was leading a group because he had heard about these trips I was taking my students on as a youth pastor to UC Berkeley So we were on a way to UC Berkeley, University here in California. This is pretty aligned toward a secular naturalistic world view

[00:03:15] Not many Christians But probably beyond the campus, especially in the faculty So we were there to take our students to the can encounter atheistic objections on the way up there

[00:03:26] As I did for years as a youth pastor, I was teaching his group about the reliability of the new testament When he said why don't you write a book about this and I thought well I'm just buried. I had three cases in trial at the time

[00:03:38] You know, as a full-time homocyte detective part-time youth pastor And I thought I'm not sure I can do it and time wise, but my wife said no, you should try. Well that became Colkase Christianity

[00:03:48] So that was the material that I've been teaching my students for many years as a youth pastor because that was basically how I became a Christian So I really didn't think much of it

[00:03:58] I just didn't know where that was going to lead. Well, it led to several books in that same genre Because once you write a book that does okay your publisher is like, do anything else you could write about in that genre

[00:04:07] So I've kind of unpacked that over the years But I always wanted to write about this stuff that is Was where I was at the time at this age, which is not so much because I that was when I was 35 looking at that stuff

[00:04:20] This is almost 30 years later And I'm really more interested in Christianity makes sense of the world we live in To this Christianity makes sense of our common experiences, our desires, our yearnings

[00:04:31] The places where we struggle, we wonder why do we struggle on that area because we've moved away from From a Christian world of you

[00:04:38] I mean this is the stuff that I've always thought was fascinating and most of the work that I do and probably most of the conversations that you and I have

[00:04:46] Are not with people who are like, you know, I've been kind of examining the resurrection and wondering no is because They were struggling in their marriage. They're struggling with trauma They're struggling with their own identity. They're trying to figure out how to get through life

[00:04:57] And that's where that's where the door opens to us sharing What Christianity teaches So I always wanted to write this book But I was nine books in now and I really had to go through a seat. I had to convince publishers

[00:05:12] And this is the stuff that I observe in criminal trials There's no way you will not learn about human nature When you are happy to be standing there or at least you're privy to the information

[00:05:24] So so I always say if you had this cup and you weren't quite sure what was in it that sure is way to find out It's the bump at the budget And it turns out that when you're working these cases, your present or you're studying that point

[00:05:38] At which people's mugs were Nudged and you're getting to see what really spells out And especially cold cases where you look like a nice mug for 30 years But now 30 years ago, what spilled out was pretty crummy

[00:05:53] And so now it's your turn to investigate that and try to convince the world that we aren't really what the cup looks like Where the stuff that's inside So that's stuff I've always wanted to write about

[00:06:06] And I just need to kind of earn a write to write about it So this book has been, I could have written about 40 different things I picked 15 Because I actually had a different title for this for operating title for a number of years It was called 15 to life

[00:06:22] And I thought 15 stories then for 15 to life of the sentence We have about hearing California for murders So I thought well that's what it'll be But I could have done more or fewer But I really wanted to write about human condition and human nature

[00:06:36] And how we can flourish Because it turns out that every thing you learn in true crime About how people don't flourish and how they could It has been supported by research in the last 40 years from researchers and sociologists and psychologists and counselors

[00:06:51] But it turns out it's all super ancient stuff that's on the pages of the new testament You don't even need to do a study If you just trusted the new testament you'd land right in the middle of it anyway But I just wanted to be able to write

[00:07:03] I do think it does provide some evidence Because if the Christian worldview is true, it ought to describe us the way we really are And I think it does But at the same time I'm more interested in Like how do I take this?

[00:07:15] This is a what now book Right, if you decided this is true or if you're still kind of struggling with that But you're trying to figure out how do I live in the world in a way That we just for selfish reasons

[00:07:27] If all you wanted to do is to live your best possible life It turns out you want to live as though it live how you're designed to live Because there's probably something in the designer's shape of you Or intentions for you that you should chase

[00:07:44] And probably the more you and doesn't mean you can't Reject this teaching from the designer But you do so with your own peril just know that And that's the kind of stuff we're talking about in this book I was talking to a friend about it over the weekend

[00:07:58] And I said, hey, we're going to things I live about this book It's almost like you've gone look, here's the problem Let's look at human nature Let me tell you a story in an example of what I've seen that That's the problem In the gospel brings a solution

[00:08:13] So this is the solution and I'm going to pull out a few from the book with you as we go on And then it's almost like you then give us a, but what now are you going to live this out

[00:08:24] You're going to allow this to transform you and I want to think that I loved about it Well, here's a problem Christ is the solution what you can do about it And it's like every chapter invited me into responding to An angle or aspect of the gospel

[00:08:40] And I want to ask you a little bit about what you can do about it And that's what I love to be able to do about it And then you take us into let's look at you for a moment

[00:08:52] And I love how the in the book when people come to bite Or see little sections where you've got these little bits of evidence and ideas And thoughts that pop in as you go along And I thought it's really well structured in that sense

[00:09:04] But that's what you were trying to do, you're trying to give us a human nature problem Here is how Jesus and the gospel interacts with that And then what you're going to do with it was that what you were trying to do

[00:09:17] Yeah, because part of it is because that's typically if you work in this profession very long And you've got a, your part of a church or your part of a family of a brand just brand you know

[00:09:25] And I'm a Christian let's say you just got a lot of friends and that who aren't cops who aren't Detectives pretty much every phone call is not about data It's not about people don't call you to say hey you know what happened last week

[00:09:39] They call you to say for advice They call you because they've encountered something in their own life that they think is kind of sideways And they're like I'm not quite sure to make it this guy I'm not quite sure to make it this situation

[00:09:50] Like do you see anything I should worry about Like they want to know is there's something that they're seeing that maybe they're missing That is a cautionary tale that maybe I could I've seen this before

[00:09:59] Like maybe I've seen this isn't early domino in a series of dominoes that are more ominous And so people will call me for this kind of advice So I find that that's 90% of my phone calls I get even from other theologians to who I know

[00:10:13] Our speakers or apologies who I'm very close to they're not calling me to say can't let's have a case for the resurrection again They're calling me to say hey my name is acting funky. What do you think of this? I'm hearing this stuff. What do you think?

[00:10:25] So that's the kind of I think in the end. That's it is where the rubber meets the road Could you imagine if we held a view of the world that is really calls us to something that's not practical

[00:10:37] It calls us to something that's really this is hard enough to live because it's true because it's noble And we're trying to stretch beyond our our fallenness to something noble But but it doesn't ask me for example to deny the reality of my suffering

[00:10:53] It asks me to do something in the midst of my suffering and I think that's the kind of stuff we wanted to talk about here Because I think that's really in the end. Let's hear the other thing

[00:11:03] I think I think that for hear Lee's turn in America for boomers like me, it's still important is it true But for my millennial son and my sons and daughters and maybe Gen Z It's really is it good

[00:11:16] That is a bigger question because they've become bins by the culture That it's not true because it's not good Rather than it's not true because it's factually inaccurate Historically inaccurate. No, no they've become bins by the culture that it's not true because it's not good

[00:11:34] It's the source of all massage and erases and homophobia Whatever you can think of the ismoor phobia that they've attached to Christian belief to it So I think that's where I wanted to say well actually it turns out

[00:11:45] It's not only good. It's necessary and beautiful and if you don't embrace it as such You'll eventually swing back to you know here in America We've had a lot of defund the police defund the police I get it certainly when you see in a you know bad behavior

[00:12:01] Bad you kind of have that knee jerk response. I get that but I've always thought as a guy who's been done this job No, and my dad did it since 1961 so we've been in this job now for about 62 years

[00:12:11] I've always thought that's a pendulum that I am willing to let swing Because I know what happens. It swings out in one direction and it becomes perilous and everyone refunds everything An additional 10% and they swings back in the other direction

[00:12:25] So I kind of feel the same way here if you move away from these basic principles of life You'll find your pendulum is going to be out on a perilous edge and you're going to want it to swing back

[00:12:35] How about this? How about if you just learn what's true about who you are and stay there Because if you did you'd have less pendulum swings In your opinion, I've lived your thoughts on this the pendulum is swinging and there are poor choices that we make

[00:12:52] There are good choices that we make where is human beings are we good or evil or are we somewhere in between where are we? I watch so much Netflix and cold case. I can't decide anymore if human nature is just doomed But how do you see us?

[00:13:09] From the right of this book, as soon as he's worked in police, are we all innately broken or despicable? Is there somewhere in between and gray? How do you approach human nature?

[00:13:21] Well, and we, and this is why I did a chapter of this book called The Killer Within which I really, because I started thinking about this deeply long before I was a Christian Only because when you're working cold cases, you're working people who are doing incredibly

[00:13:34] A very altruistic in the present day Yet the claim is that these folks did something despicable at some point in the past. They're not serial killers

[00:13:43] They're just did one crime, one murder and it might have been despicable more where they had to cut up the body afterwards to hide it or whatever

[00:13:50] But they only did it one time and then they did a number of things that you would have said would have disqualified them from consideration as a murderer So the question is who are we really and that's the claim of scripture right? Are we just innately good

[00:14:04] And we are pure and we are corrupted by our environments our families, our friends, our systems Or are we innately fallen and the corruptors of our family, our systems and our religious organizations? Which of those two is it now that studies show that we are capable of altruism

[00:14:23] But interestingly, the studies also show we're only capable of altruism so long as there's something in it for us So for example when resources get very tight, we suddenly afford the toilet paper

[00:14:35] Well, why are we doing that? We're doing that because now it's like well if it's a you or me, it's going to be me. Sorry But if there's enough resources for me, I can be generous

[00:14:45] So I think we want to be able to look at the studies that show art are kind of depraved fallen nature and you already know if you have kids

[00:14:52] You know that you're not you never have to teach your kids to be impatient or selfish or that is that's that's like that's that's the default position You got to teach your kids to be the opposite so

[00:15:02] So how do we explain this? We'll now call the enigma of man Well, I think the description we're a description world view does that now why is that important because if we're going to think we can design systems to remedy us

[00:15:15] Our problems. We're probably misguided instead whatever system we design it's going to be We have to be filled with the kinds of checks and balances that would catch and safeguard us from ourselves

[00:15:29] This is why a lot of the three kind of the bodies, you know the reap that the kind of three So I did nature of the founding of America was really had that kind of idea in mind

[00:15:41] A Christian world view related to human nature that so we better have checks and balances between these different branches of government Because if we don't we can't let people

[00:15:49] Just run things without accountability and checks and about why because we know that their base nature is to abuse it for their own purposes And now that's an assumption, by the way That would be just the opposite if you thought that the systems are what's corrupting us

[00:16:04] You would say the hey I could actually Release system control and if I can just allow people to be who they really are at their core We wouldn't have any need for any of this, but that's just the opposite of what we see in reality

[00:16:16] So I think this is going to be an important rate, but this is important for us to just say here's the other thing Is that once I recognized that I was the same guy who I was interviewing in this murder

[00:16:29] It gave me a different view of the guy I was interviewing in the murder It's so easy that episode in the cost polls where Jesus says there's a dude in the synagogue

[00:16:38] He was looking over this and they're going, thank you God that I'm not that in the apple head Well why do we do that? It's just part of who we are right But once you realize that know how you are that in the apple head

[00:16:49] But your buttons just weren't pushed But for the grace of God, you could be sitting on the other side of this interview You see this all the time if you watch the date lines and I've been on a lot of date line episodes

[00:16:59] Here in America there's a show called date line and if you watch the date line, you're going to see that there are cops Who do, vile things, duh And they find themselves on the other side of the table

[00:17:09] Well why? Because it's the enigma of man and once you recognize it by the way I think if you don't think that if you think there are good people in bad people instead of humble people and proud people

[00:17:20] If you think that there are good people in bad people then you almost always will see yourself as a good one And you'll never do anything to correct what's bad about you

[00:17:28] So it turns out this view is super important if you simply want to have a better life Well, I'm so that was the chapter of the book that I love So the chapter is called the killer inside and

[00:17:42] That was the chapter that for me, I thought this is a pivotal chapter How do we see ourselves? You know we live our lives going that will never be me that will never be me And one of the things that strikes me is

[00:17:53] If you say I will never have an affair You're only 60 seconds away from having an affair It's the foolishness that you'll never But it's actually when we acknowledge our brokenness and we realize that we aren't good and we're not evil

[00:18:09] We are a mixture of the two and yes, we are fallen But you know, I love how you just said Most movies play out a good in a baddie That's how we were saying England a good in a baddie

[00:18:20] Actually, I don't think any of us are the goodie But we are a mixture of the two and that's where then Okay, so I'm gonna have to intentionally look at myself to make sure that I make good choices

[00:18:34] Not the bad choices, it takes a moment for a poor choice, doesn't it? Yeah, I think this was this was the central part for me where your book really got it It's so interesting that you saw that way

[00:18:46] Part of the thing I think if I go back, every time you write a book And then you spend the next two years talking about it Especially if you're doing stage presentations, right? You're asked to talk about it publicly You think you're self-law

[00:18:56] If I could write that book again, I'd write this part differently Or I would, I think that part of what I see in this book now Even in the early stages, only two weeks and it'd be available The order of chapters matters too

[00:19:08] For me, I was always trying to think, well, I'm not really trying to make a case in this book Like I'm saying, hey, because of this now chapter two because of this now chapter three

[00:19:16] I'm actually as providing, I think, our standalone chapters that you could just, you know, it's something That what that does help is it does provide for some people that they'll say like use it This is the chapter that hit me, but I do think you're right

[00:19:28] This is the foundation of everything So this isn't true by the way, we have an entirely different view on how we view We view sin, how we view corrections, you know, correctional facilities and correctional opportunities We have to make the decision about this first

[00:19:46] Also, I think what this does is this for me Is the kind of the leverage point of humility Right, which is another chapter in the book, which I think is the chapter on celebrity

[00:19:58] Which is about a guy named Paul Lone who was a kind of a local street legend For a season here in South and California And what happens to somebody when he starts to believe his own press clippings

[00:20:10] When you start to allow celebrity to control your life and the only remedy for celebrity is the opposite of humility But how do you even approach like you, this is like I was saying before I was not willing to listen to what the new testament said about me

[00:20:26] Because I didn't believe what it said about a supernatural Jesus But if that was how I unlocked the door for me, I was like okay, so if this is if I can trust this about Jesus

[00:20:35] Why would I not trust what Paul is telling me about me and Romans? As I'm reading through Romans, if I'm gonna take that seriously Well, then I have to reassess who I am That no one is good, no one's accepted is a matter of fact this idea

[00:20:48] That we do we only do good things all trueistic things according to the studies Because they somehow privately benefit us

[00:20:56] This is Luther Luther said this he said we're so inwardly turned that that we even when we try to do things it turns out that kind of prideful self-centeredness is behind a lot of moral behavior Because we do these good things for the wrong reason

[00:21:12] We're just trying to benefit ourselves something how we feel about ourselves religiously We're looking for other religious believers I mean there's a lot of things we do that are good, but this is the whole point are we so broken That even our efforts at goodness

[00:21:26] Are not impressive to God because he knows we're just entirely doing those for selfish reasons Well, this brings us to your knees in terms of like hey, you know what? I am really Far worse off than I thought it was

[00:21:38] Because even on those days when I feel like I had a pretty good day today I had it for all the wrong reasons

[00:21:43] And then it's like okay now I know that my need is much bigger than I ever thought it was before because I used to think I only need forgiveness for my bad days But if you start to realize you need forgiveness on your good days

[00:21:57] This changes this and humility it turns out Is the key that unlocks every aspect of human flourishing studied by sociologists It turns out if you want to make more money

[00:22:10] Have better grades have a better marriage be a better friend have deeper connections to other people have better mental health Have better physical health live longer you name the way you measure success as a human

[00:22:21] It only improves if you adopt this and this is the only universal things that improves all the categories Some things to improve one or two categories This one will improve every category of human flourishing isn't that interesting

[00:22:35] So why would it be is it a coincidence that this is the view that is best advanced by the Christian world view

[00:22:41] Know what the world view advances it is because it is this because every other world view is mirror talker is got a meritocracy of some sort in other words

[00:22:50] I'm going to do these things and I'm going to get from God what God offers or I'm going to do these things in a secular culture And I'm going to earn a place at the table. In other words, every other world view is based on your effort

[00:23:01] The only world view that would be entirely advancing of humility would be a world view that says you know what no, it's not based on your effort I'm going to give it to you for free gift So that no one can boast this is what Paul says

[00:23:17] It's a gospel and that one move that one aspect of Christianity And it could be a coincidence just happens to align with the one behavior that leads to the most human flourishing It is really the design of the designer being reflected in our lives I love that

[00:23:36] I love how you end that whole Section, no, it's lead 11 is if we've got to get to a place of recognizing we need forgiveness And that we were created for redemption and And I was reflecting personally on

[00:23:56] We can do the right things but we still have the wrong motive. I as a pastor can preach a sermon and invite an altar call And the reason for doing that is honestly how many people come forward because it makes me feel better

[00:24:11] What's the motive, the dark side and the other side of the moon There's a light side of the dark side of the moon and there's a danger that we can at the same time Be working from both of them and therefore we need Christ No doubt about it

[00:24:28] You just said the human condition right we have all this is all of us and struggling with this This is why the only one view of the world is going to really successfully address that

[00:24:36] And it's going to have to be one that says you know what, okay, I'm going to give you this for free because I know you're a mess Yeah, so out of the book You know which chapter for you was the one that challenged you personally the most

[00:24:52] The one that made you go hey, I just I'm writing this for others but I'm writing this to myself Well that chapter on celebrity was big for me because it turns out that if you're going to be an author and you want to have people read your book

[00:25:04] You're going to end up chasing some although I know the truth of it is is that it's trusted authority That causes people to want to read your books, but in the end we're in a world that advances not trusted authority

[00:25:16] It advances celebrity and you have to constantly figure out well, how do I accomplish one without having to chase the other There's also a chapter in here on the value of worship It's about a guy named Santa Claus

[00:25:28] Because it turns out that almost all crimes will all crimes are caused by our right The quality, us taking something in the one of the three categories of God's creation and then

[00:25:39] Distorting it for hurting it and chasing it instead of God making it our idol making it our master And then being willing to do something vials something terrible because somebody dared to insult or

[00:25:51] Bruse just the smallest aspect of this thing we've created as a nightle that is really behind all kinds of crime And that's also what we have to I have an idol and I have I say I love God and I do but I often

[00:26:05] My life shows you that I am more enthralled with God's creation often than I am with the create or because if you look at how I'm spending my time

[00:26:16] How I spend money how I spend my my resources my talents right how I what is I look forward to what is it the stuff that I Approach claim on my social media what is the stuff that I would sacrifice for that I don't want you to challenge

[00:26:29] I'm not it's unco- the stuff that's unquestionable in my life don't even dare question it that stuff is my idol And we all have something like that that's not God and you know just look at your podcast

[00:26:41] I can probably find your pot your idols on your podcast. What are you listening to what is this stuff you're pouring into your head all the time What what are you subscribed to on as it what how much on your netflix subscription

[00:26:53] I mean that these are the things that that we can look at and say okay, I can probably figure out which you're interested in

[00:26:59] How do you spending your discretionary time your discretionary income anything that discretionary what are you doing with it that you're going to show me your idols Well, I'm just as It guiltier when look we have American football seasons and play here in America. I'm okay

[00:27:17] You would swear that's the only thing I care about because how much time of my spending Watching American football, okay, look these are the things that we That God is is not against But he doesn't want to be replaced by for sure

[00:27:32] So I talk about this in one of the chapters and I think in the end that's the one that's always my struggle is and for me my idol

[00:27:40] For some foremost is my marriage because I you know, I've been I was Susan already good there for 18 years before we became Christians And that was the God and the thing that I always tell you to tell people when I finally became a Christian started doing weddings

[00:27:53] I would tell people you I want you to love your marriage more than you love your spouse Because I think it's important If you love your marriage, so that days with your spouse where you want to kill each other

[00:28:02] But you know what you love marriage and you want the kind of marriage that preaches Is every marriage preaches? So the question then because what are you preaching? So I just that that became my idol

[00:28:12] And I have to make sure I I prevent that from being the idol right because what happens then when you lose your spouse what happens then when

[00:28:19] I mean let's be honest that God it will not settle for it was a Ruskin who said that God but one thing God will never settle for that second place And if he's not first place in your heart, he's got no place in your heart

[00:28:30] The question is are are we going to give him first place and I think we say it. I say it. I know better But all those things I talk about in that chapter Those they think 12 questions you can ask yourself they give me away

[00:28:44] That they because I can't you don't answer all those questions in my own life is not God It's that I am now resourcing into areas that don't matter Yeah, it honestly don't matter a lick and here I am thinking they're important

[00:28:58] So I think this is the bigger struggle right? That's why I think that it's a kind of a monastic history to Christianity which people are really trying to say you know what I don't even trust myself

[00:29:07] Yeah, I need to find a way to isolate myself. So it's just me and God because the minute it's me and God and a third thing I'm now focused on the third thing

[00:29:17] So I think it's really helpful for us to kind of know that's part of our nature and then work hard to to eliminate the idols It's true me when I was reading that chapter that some if I make myself my the idol

[00:29:29] Then God I'm saying God help me do what I want to do That's right and it just strikes right How many of us we are praying to God so that we might achieve our dreams and yourself

[00:29:43] He becomes the cosmic vending machine. That's going to turn out what we need to deliver what we want for our lives And that's what really struck me particularly in that that chapter is you know we can talk about the idol of the iPhone

[00:29:57] We can talk about the idol of social media I think the idol behind the idol behind the idol is itself And all of these are there really to help me achieve what I want to achieve in life

[00:30:08] And I'll tell you it's because I love God, but I love the fact that God gives me what I want And I'll keep no doubt as long as he does When he stops delivering I'm not sure that this God's living up to my expectations

[00:30:22] Oh, it's an assabbed true and that's why I think the Lord's prayers away is written away structure Then what it is because it's a we ever do we ever say no God, I don't care what happened

[00:30:34] That's not my desires. What are your desires? Let's make those that's actual I help me actualize those Because we just I have said it in prayer But you have to consciously say it's intentionality But the reality is even when I say it doesn't mean I mean it

[00:30:49] I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna say that stuff so I can get to my request Yeah, right and so I mean at the point of your request Now you realize this is why I'm really praying

[00:31:00] So I think that part as a certain amount of cynicism you have to have about life to work as a detective it helps Assume everyone's a liar And then someone's gonna go to jail If you assume everyone's a truth teller no one's going to jail

[00:31:13] Well assume even your own heart is lying to you Because it turns out that kind of healthy cynicism or well always read or act you because I just don't crush myself anymore My heart is despicable and it will always like yes

[00:31:26] Yeah, thank you so much for spending time. I love the book It's such a fun way of exploring discipleship and it really feels like cold case discipleship And you know I thought this is great. This takes two of my boxes here

[00:31:42] This is just welcome to be reading. So big thank you for writing it And I do know that people will love exploring their discipleship through this lens of true crime So thank you so much if people want to find out more about you and your work

[00:32:01] Because they you know of course they can get the book on Amazon we'll put a link in the show notes and that kind of thing But if anybody wants to find out more about what you do where should they be heading

[00:32:08] Well, we try to post three times a week. I want you to take care of that advantage of everything that's free from an author before you ever purchase something from an author

[00:32:15] So we try to provide a lot of free content at coldcase christianny dot com but for this book

[00:32:21] We really want to focus on giving you a bunch of material including a 30 session case makers course ten and a half hours of video content with all of the written material it goes with it

[00:32:30] For free and you can get that when you buy the book at the truth in true crime dot com the truth in true crime dot com True come to come to thank you so much to spending would you would you might just praying for us as we absolutely

[00:32:44] Absolutely, thank you so much for Chris and the work he's doing the fact that you've made us Brothers that we can talk across this this huge geographic divide and actually feel as though

[00:32:54] We share the same father because we do and so I just pray that you will use his work to grow the kingdom to grow to grow all of us as we kind of

[00:33:03] Learn what it is to follow in your footsteps to surrender our lives to you. This is the biggest challenge and so it is pray that you'll use both of us

[00:33:12] To help us to be surrendered and help others to do the same we pray this and then your precious son Jesus Christ Amen Thank you so much. Thank you Chris. Yeah, you too