Supporting and Sending Out Servants | David Guzik & Nate Holdridge

[00:00:00] Well, today on the Leadership Collective Podcast we're talking about Sending Considerations. How we send and subsequently support people on Ventures of Faith. This might include a Church Planter or could include a missionary and I'm really looking forward to this episode in our special guest.

[00:00:21] Any one of us no matter what person it would be serving at our church in whatever capacity. We would all say if the Holy Spirit was really leading them to go with somebody, we'd be behind it.

[00:00:35] Tough as it was. What we're kind of against is the idea that recruitment may happen in a manipulative way in a less than transparent way. And so to me a lot of times with recruitment it's how it's done. That's more important

[00:00:51] than whether or not it's done or who goes. Yes, we have two great guests with us today. First of all, we have David Guzik who is a long time missionary, pastor, church planner. And right now is the content creator for the enduring word online commentary,

[00:01:11] which is an incredible resource for pastors and really anybody who wants to grow in their relationship with the Lord and so excited to have you on with us today. David, welcome to the program.

[00:01:24] Thanks so much. Pleasure to be here with you guys. And then we also have Nate Holdridge. Nate is the pastor of Calvary Chapel in Monterey, California, a great Bible teacher, a wonderful dude, and so great to have you on the program as well, Nate.

[00:01:40] It's awesome to be with you guys and what I really want to get into is what is David's web traffic like on Saturday before all the pastors out there are trying to put their final touches on their sermon. Right, exactly.

[00:01:55] Nate Saturday is a big day for traffic, but our biggest day of traffic consistently during the week is Wednesday. Wow. I don't know why, but that's our biggest traffic day of the week, but Saturday's big too. It's those Wednesday guys get made from Tuesday night service.

[00:02:10] We're just downloading your notes for there through the Bible study and have to say this about Nate. Nate is the guy who has the voice that every pastor wants. Right on, what a blessing to have you guys. So as we're as we're diving into this conversation,

[00:02:28] we're going to start and maybe we'll circle back around to actually explore this. But we're going to start with the assumption that sort of axe 13 has already taken place. The spirit has confirmed that he is called this individual or this team.

[00:02:47] We have fasted, we've prayed, we've laid hands on them, we are now sending them out. And so we're going to start from that assumption. And like I said, we can circle back around and talk about that process.

[00:02:58] But let's just talk about how we then go about handling financial support for instance. Like hey, let's start there. How do we, we've identified a person we're going to send them out. Obviously, each situation is unique.

[00:03:15] There's reasonable guidelines and expectations that we need to have and they're all going to be a little bit different. But Rob, what are your thoughts on that just to prime the pump here? Yeah. So in the 26 years that I've been the pastor at Calrevista, we've actually planted 18 churches.

[00:03:33] And so the way that we've approached this has been different as it related to somebody being sent out internationally, versus somebody being sent out domestically. And for a couple going out on the mission field internationally, we have supported them somewhere in the range of $500 to $1,000 a month.

[00:03:57] And we've made an initial commitment for three years on that. And then knowing that now years ago, I mean, 500 dollars would take a guy really, really far. Especially like in Eastern Europe, Russia. Those are some of the places where we were planting initially.

[00:04:17] But now when we send somebody out, that isn't going to cut it. So they have to raise the rest of their support before we agree to launch them. And so that's kind of how we would handle somebody internationally.

[00:04:33] Domestically, we would cover their salary, their insurance, the building rental for three to five months in the initial sending out. And if they end up not having enough people by whatever we distinguish,

[00:04:49] there's going to be three months or five months, that last month we would tell them that they need to start looking for a job. And so that's the way that we covered, have covered and approach that at this time. So that was salary building salary insurance building rental.

[00:05:08] Okay. That was our commitment for the first three to five months. And then sometimes somebody would be in a place where they'd have the salary and insurance. And now people come in, but they still need help on the building. So we would continue to support that a while.

[00:05:27] Now is that pretty much hard and fast rule for everybody you send out or does? Yeah, that is pretty standard. Anybody who like you said is met that X 13 criteria that we feel like they're called. We want to get behind them.

[00:05:42] That's been the approach that we have taken. Okay. Nate, how about you? Yeah. I mean, I'm taking notes there with Rob's answer. That's a great one. I think that sounds similar to an approach that we've taken in the past. I think you bring up good questions.

[00:06:03] Are we talking about someone who is from inside the church or outside the church? Are they appealing to us from the outside? You know, they're a missionary that's just collecting their support from a number of churches. Or are we there sending church? That's a huge question.

[00:06:20] For us, we've always wanted to invest more and people who are raised up within the church. Then folks who have come from the outside, though, we want to support people who are from the outside.

[00:06:29] Knowing that no single church or donor is going to be able to get the whole job done. And then asking the question about what kind of context they're going to do. The international versus national context is a question. But then also the developed world versus the undeveloped world.

[00:06:48] You know, you kind of bring that up as far as how far the dollar is going to go. Right. For us there's always the filter too and I know this isn't really the question that's being asked right now.

[00:07:00] But the question of does this align with our vision and mission as a particular church? And every church has to kind of sort through what's our heart, what's our focus, what's our vision.

[00:07:13] So for us, church plantings are really big deal and that serves as a grid or a filter for us when it comes to the kinds of missions opportunities that we support.

[00:07:25] If it's a church planner that's like in the prime center of where our heart is at, if it's helping a church plant or it's trying to do something that will eventually lead to a church plant.

[00:07:35] That's great to us. But if it's more periphery and it never really has that as an aim, you know, it's not like a, for instance, like a Bible college that is wanting to help church plants by building up the next generation.

[00:07:50] But it's more like I don't know bringing water to a group of people who need wells, Doug or something like that. We believe in those things they're beautiful, but they're not going to get the priority for us because we, for our, our church, you know,

[00:08:04] that's kind of a filter that we've got. But I think the dollar amounts that you're talking about have been right around where we're at.

[00:08:12] For us, that we've tried to think through how to make those payments and to kind of have a culture of reassessment where the person that's going out understands this isn't in perpetuity.

[00:08:26] I like that three year number for a start for us. We make a year commitment and say, we'll reassess next year. One way that we, that I've found that that can kind of be helped is by saying, we're not going to do a monthly donation.

[00:08:42] We're just going to make a huge lump sum at the beginning of the year. And that kind of communicates a little bit more.

[00:08:49] Okay, this is not a month to month in perpetuity thing. But this year, this church decided to invest in this way and we'll come back to it again next year. I like that. So let's spend some of the stuff that we've done, although I will add to caveat.

[00:09:08] This is really not my area of expertise. You know, I try to find people who are good at managing this type of thing in our church, so that I can put my head down and be the word guy.

[00:09:20] Yeah, one of these I'll just add for. And in my answer, the context has definitely been people who were planting, who were basically on our staff. We did have a couple of individuals over the years where, you know, they were guys who were leading a home group.

[00:09:41] I felt called to go plant. And so we ended up doing this and this really, really worked well as we had them work it out with their employer in their last year that they were with us before we sent them out that they would take one day off a week, which was Tuesday.

[00:10:01] And they would come and work at the church that day. And they'd come to our staff meeting and we just want to do an integrate them and everything. So for those six months, their employers agreed to let them take that one day off.

[00:10:15] And we would cover their salary for that one day. The second six months in that year, we would bring them on staff full time before we sent them out.

[00:10:24] So it was kind of part of our training that we did in sending, you know, sending guys out. But the context of my answer was definitely guys going out to plant and guys who, you know, had either interned or had been on our staff that we were sending out.

[00:10:43] Did you have a set task list for those, for when you would bring them on staff full time?

[00:10:51] We wanted them to go through every aspect of our ministry, of course, of that year to be able to figure out in no. Like they could know why do we do children's ministry the way that we do it.

[00:11:02] Why do we do youth ministry? Why do we do women's ministry? Men's ministry. We wanted them not to say that they would do it that way.

[00:11:10] We need to know how the sausage is made. We even put them through learning how and have a basic understanding of like doing sound.

[00:11:18] And part of that was because when I went out, all I knew was how to do youth ministry. I didn't know anything else about running a church.

[00:11:27] I had never had been to a board meeting none of those things. And I just felt like I was at the mercy of, you know, well intentioned people in the church but who all had, you know, their own ideas on different things.

[00:11:41] And so from that I felt like the guys that we sent out, I wanted them to have a very well rounded view of how the church works.

[00:11:50] And so that that year was really intentionally given to putting them through every single ministry and to know how we did it and why we did it and know the heart behind it.

[00:12:04] We've had this conversation before but you know, I've made a point of telling our guys what's going to kill you isn't what you don't know.

[00:12:12] So what you don't know that you don't know and that's the beauty of what you're talking about and bringing them in to really have them see, you know, how the sausage is made in these different ministries.

[00:12:24] So they see how it integrates into the whole just so they have a working knowledge of, you know, why we haven't and what a healthy ministry looks like at least the healthy components of it. Yeah. What about you, David? What are your thoughts on this?

[00:12:40] I really like how you phrased a lot of that rub. And one of the things I appreciate and I think was really valuable for the church planters that have gone out of your church is the the real clarity behind it.

[00:12:52] I think that a lot of trouble and misunderstanding begins when expectations aren't clear on one side or another. And you made it really clear a dollar amount, you've made it really clear a term for the church planners for those serving on the foreign fields.

[00:13:10] I really echo what Nate said about how valuable it is to do it. Okay, we're going to guarantee you three years and after that it's going to be a certain term.

[00:13:19] In my years of missionary work, I've seen it being sometimes significant problems that missionaries will develop a sense of entitlement.

[00:13:31] I feel a little bit strange saying that because, you know, look, everybody who's doing a worthy service of the Lord is entitled, I suppose in some sense to some kind of support or participation from the body of Christ.

[00:13:45] But it's not like a perpetual blank check to say we will be committed to support you, no matter how long, no matter what you're doing, no matter what the effectiveness that's just not a valid way to do it.

[00:14:03] You know, having a very clear expectations and then making it clear to people that you know we're going to reevaluate this every year, every two years and you know will.

[00:14:16] It's not guaranteed that we're going to stay on and support you. We're going to try to listen to the Lord year by year.

[00:14:22] Yes, a great point and I'll tell you David we had to learn that the hard way and I would say I wouldn't call it in our case. It wasn't an entitlement but it was more of a dependency.

[00:14:35] And the missionaries had come to a point where they just depended upon us and early on, like I said, sending people to Eastern Europe and Russia was so inexpensive that it was just amazing.

[00:14:47] You know, guys, guys we're we're supporting them like $200 a month and they were living better than anybody on my staff.

[00:14:54] Yeah, but you've heard of the BFA, well it became B of V. The Bank of VISTA, like every single issue that came up, it was like, hey we need money for this and we need money for this.

[00:15:07] And as the cost of living in those places began to grow, it was getting to the point for us where it was like just not sustainable.

[00:15:17] Yeah, it's impossible for us to keep up with the demand. So we had to make a shift to this model that you know I've laid out here.

[00:15:28] You know and sometimes the the missionary vision of a church will change somewhat. Yeah, some churches are much more interested in having a very broad impact in a lot of different places in the world.

[00:15:41] Other churches say no we're going to impact fewer places but with a much greater investment to each individual place. Yeah, those things are up between that church's leadership and the Holy Spirit and nobody should despise it. No, it's good.

[00:15:56] How do you guys ensure financial accountability with those works that you're sending the in supporting? Whether it be a mission level international effort or if it's a if it's a state side kind of church planting effort.

[00:16:12] You want to jump in there? Nate, go ahead. Well let me say when I hear you ask that question my first impression is on the mission field there's very little accountable.

[00:16:24] I mean it's just a fact of it and that's that's spoken from somebody that lived on the mission field for how many years were you overseas?

[00:16:32] Well we were over there seven years but you know, I mean and remain closed both before and after. I mean we know how things work and just to be honest there's very little accountability and I think that because of just the way it is culturally at least in our circles.

[00:16:50] It would probably be seen as like an intrusion to ask for some kind of financial accountability.

[00:16:56] That's probably a very wise thing to do upfront with people that we support from our churches is to say, listen please don't get offended if we ask for expenses if we ask for how things are going. This is just part of our good stewardship before the Lord.

[00:17:12] Communication is key. But again this is another one of those things that we learn the hard way because we didn't really ask for any accountability.

[00:17:20] I will tell you this, I have a funny story, film a key. He was a marine and he was a guy on our staff and he was just he knew how we operate it.

[00:17:30] So he gets on the mission field in the first couple of weeks. He's sending like a daily list of everything that he was doing because he wanted you to know that, you know he was like really using his time wisely.

[00:17:44] But you know normally what we're doing is now is like asking for a yearly budget report and you know some different things like that. As far as the long term mission goes, not so much with the domestic church plan.

[00:18:00] Yeah everyone's a little bit different and you know sometimes one of the things that we have done when we've sent guys out and I'm talking about in this particular example of those that are planting domestically.

[00:18:14] They're going out and delivering to plant a church in one of the states here. And so what I've done with guys is I send them out and I say look, you're going to operate under our board for you know for your initial sending period.

[00:18:32] And your those that are giving to your work can can give to our church and we'll ear market for what you're doing. And then I send them with the credit card. They oftentimes these are guys that have been on staff, their staff pastors with us.

[00:18:52] They already have a church credit card. And so I send them with their church credit card and say you know this is your budget is this line item.

[00:19:01] And you know as people give it all goes into there and then they have to you know justify just as any pastor on staff would have to justify what their expenses were when they were using the credit cards. They would they would do it that way.

[00:19:15] And then what that does too is it kind of takes the pressure off them to where look.

[00:19:21] And we don't even know if this is really going to be a church and we're hoping it's going to be a church. I mean you're endeavoring to go out on an adventure faith right now you're starting you know home Bible study there's maybe four or five six of you to start.

[00:19:35] Let's see what God does with it but it gives them the opportunity to hey you don't have to you don't have to go and open a bank account get your 501c3 or any of that stuff to begin with.

[00:19:46] You can just operate as as you know mission and missionary endeavor out of our church. And and then that kind of takes the pressure off and then let's see if they get traction let's see if they grow.

[00:20:00] They've got built in accountability for the expenses that they're in which are to negligible at that point.

[00:20:07] And and then once they get some traction and okay now we're going to help you get a bank account now we're going to help you get your 501c3 and all of those things. Nate, where are your thoughts?

[00:20:19] Well I think for us I like to go to ultra extreme route. I want to know every single dollar that has ever been spent in that man's professional personal or ministry life.

[00:20:34] I'm joking. I think I think one like filtering kind of question for me has been what's the bulk of this financial support going to is it live paycheck you know that supporting a man's living expenses is you know his family.

[00:20:57] Well you know the church here pays me and I'm not giving this the steadiest record of you know how much went to Cheerios and how much of dairy products you know and all that like if that's what the support is.

[00:21:13] I'm expecting that we've done the hard work of vetting this person on the front end. And so there you go here's the money I don't have time to babysit you and hold your hand to try to figure out exactly how you've spent your personal finances.

[00:21:29] But if they're going for instance to like David did for many years you know to hate part of our funding is to run a school or something like that then. You're talking about a different ball game, you know where you want to get involved so.

[00:21:46] For us one thing that's been helpful to provide some accountability in that kind of setting is to just when we send people out.

[00:21:54] To offer one or two of us here to serve on their board of directors and I try to make that for just a three or four year stretch because what I don't need is to have a.

[00:22:10] Roster full of pastors here who are busy with meetings then pertain to another fellowship. But if they can have you know for two or three or four years half of their board comprised of.

[00:22:25] People that they know from our fellowship leaders that they trust from our fellowship were experienced and then the other half of their board comprised of people that are going with them.

[00:22:35] Or are on their leadership team then those people get stronger and stronger during the course of those two or three years from learning from the people with experience so that that's been a helpful way for us.

[00:22:51] How do you guys go about presenting adventure of faith to the congregation so let's you know you've got you've got that person and you know the spirits made it clear hey. They're going you know and and let's let's yeah and that can it can be looked differently.

[00:23:09] Typically it's a guy who's on staff with us for for those of us that have larger churches it's a guy that's already on paid staff and so but you know it doesn't always look like that in fact frequently it doesn't look like that.

[00:23:22] But how do you so how do you go about presenting that venture faith the congregation. That has changed as well you know as far as I mean that can look different if it's somebody who. Is on our staff then they have probably already you know preach several times.

[00:23:49] You know we had the podcast a while back where you talked about sharing the pulpit and I like to do that and so you know the body knows this individual and so we like to do.

[00:24:03] So an opportunity where you know we'll print something up and we'll kind of do a big send off on a Sunday. And then after that we do video updates that they'll send us and we'll show those you know to the body as well.

[00:24:22] One of the more recent ones we did have was one with a pastor who I actually met on a mission trip over to Africa and he had been pastoring in Africa.

[00:24:34] And ended up he was feeling called to leave there and we had a church that we were partnering with in New Zealand that needed a pastor.

[00:24:43] So long story short the Lord opened up the door for him to fill that position and so I brought him to the church had him preach introduced him and his family you know to our church.

[00:24:56] And then we you know send him off that way but usually it's it's around that type of a way of just presenting the vision the heart the people.

[00:25:08] Printing out something that people can take home put it on their fridgerators and then continuing with video updates that they'll you know send us. How about solicitation of support in in that.

[00:25:20] It's it's not anything that we've ever discouraged at all and we handle all their support you know as a church.

[00:25:29] And we print up cards. In fact, we have a missions board that has their picture and name in a QR code that if they go on that it goes to their website and it shows how people can give.

[00:25:42] But we've never made a big deal of it either like you know hey we want everybody here to support these guys. Right. Yeah, I'm I'm so how about Nate Monterey how how do you guys go about.

[00:25:58] You know you're presenting this to the church congregation you have to think through these issues of you know do we let them solicits support do we do they set up a table do they. Hey you know right as a check kind of thing what you know.

[00:26:14] How do you guys approach it. Well it really depends on who they are right I mean if this is a beloved pastor who's been. Part of the church for a number of years.

[00:26:27] Part of sending them out is taking the church honestly through the grieving process losing a man they really love and his family. Celebrating what God is doing you want to make a really big deal out of that kind of person.

[00:26:48] And for us it's kind of a no brainer of what we try to tell the churches. If we're if we're supporting financially as a church I try to say to the congregation you are already financially supporting this endeavor.

[00:27:04] Yeah that's good because when you financially invest here in turn you're financially investing that in them. However, if you would like to go above and beyond and get behind them even further financially here's how you can do it.

[00:27:20] Somebody like that it'd be a no-brainer decision for us to support them in that way. I think another way to launch out maybe a missionary who they're not part of your church they're not a known entity. Is to try to make them a known entity in some way.

[00:27:40] If they're a pastor or they're a good speaker that's an opportunity to find a Sunday where you can be out of the hope it that's the best way.

[00:27:51] Really used to have them share the word if they are capable in that and that can kind of stir people's hearts for missions in general and then kind of attaches them to a greater degree to that individual missionary.

[00:28:05] And yeah I think for us we've just kind of taken the approach if if we believe in them enough to support them financially ourselves as a church.

[00:28:14] Then we're willing to have full information without solicitation for them to hang out the single or hand out the QR code saying if you'd like to support me directly here's how you could do it. We haven't had a problem with that. Yeah.

[00:28:33] You know one thing I see in the whole thing is that the presentation of the person or the family or whatever before the congregation and you know kind of

[00:28:43] of in the Sunday morning classic announcement and presentation thing that thing is good it's necessary I think it's an important marker.

[00:28:50] But people do things today on social media that extend their reach far more I mean missionaries or church planners are able to connect with people and get their message out to people so much more effectively now than they were able to 15 20 years ago.

[00:29:07] So it kind of comforts me that it's not all reliant on how good of a presentation we make on a Sunday or something with the family or with a person.

[00:29:17] I mean obviously we wanted to do the best we can with it but it is good that people have a lot of direct channels that they can they can use. Yeah that's a good observation.

[00:29:27] We're going to pause for a minute here from our friends at Coltabay Church Planting Initiative of CGF. The Gospel is the hope of the world and the world needs more Gospel-centered churches. That's why Coltabay by CGN exists.

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[00:30:51] With our guidance and support you can feel confident in your ability to engage the world for Christ. Are you ready to answer the call of church planting? Together we can make a difference and bring the hope of the Gospel to communities around the world.

[00:31:03] If you're ready to take the next steps and learn more about our church planting program, we invite you to visit our website at ColtavayChurchPlanting.com. Nate you mentioned the beloved pastor and that opens up all kinds of considerations too, doesn't it?

[00:31:20] When we've got a guy who has been a beloved pastor, there are also kind of in many ways I don't want to say indispensable but I'll use it for lack of a better word right now. They're sort of indispensable right? They're integral to what you're doing.

[00:31:41] And so that opens up the consideration for how do we begin, you know, Paven the way to send this person out and to fill the vacuum in behind them. So that's about that.

[00:31:56] So it's a great question and I think when it can be approached over the long term, you know, that's really, really helpful.

[00:32:06] You know, where it's not, I mean there are certain, you know, have been certain situations that we've had where it was, you know, a church that ended up needing a pastor.

[00:32:19] And so one of our guys was in a very short amount of time, you know, was taken that step. And there's been a couple of times where we didn't necessarily have somebody in the wings.

[00:32:34] Usually we have a, you know, a funnel. We have a pipeline and we have people that are, you know, in the wings. And so that's felt and you have to just, you know, get the body to understand that. That hey, this is part of our, you know,

[00:32:50] One thing that we really like to preach is that we're interested in the big sea church, you know, at Calvary Viscite. It's not just about us. So here, you know, here's a church, you know, over in this area that their, their pastor just died or their pastor fell.

[00:33:05] And this, you know, church is hurting and they reached out to us. And so now we're going to send this beloved, you know, person to come and fill that need. And it's part of our being connected to the big sea church.

[00:33:19] Yeah. And getting our body to understand that. And I think if that is a part of your normal culture, it's easier for the body to get that, you know, that they understand that, hey, this just isn't about us and what we're doing. But we're interested in it.

[00:33:35] And we're a church that, you know, is partnering with, you know, last year our church was able to help three other churches financially. One with a youth center, one overseas with the project they were doing. And then a church that just got into a new building.

[00:33:52] We gave them money for their chairs. And our body when we told them we were doing that, they were just so excited.

[00:33:58] There was no question like, what, why are we giving money to them? You know, we, it was like, oh, they just applauded. They were like, that is so awesome. You know, then we can do that. But that's a culture that we've really tried to develop at Calvary VISTA.

[00:34:12] Yeah. I think about three words I would give is the word overlap training and sacrifice. So overlap for us as men, if we're able to be have a little bit of debt. On the bench, a little bit of debt from the team. Yeah.

[00:34:34] Then it helps when you're sending somebody out or way. There's other people to step into the space that they've left. Training is also important because sometimes you can't, you know, for instance, if you're talking about on staff, pastors or something like that and you're sending one out.

[00:34:54] You have a limited amount of resources and there's only so many that you can carry financially. Right.

[00:35:02] And each church, so maybe you don't have that extra person, but are you training and developing behind the scenes so that when you send someone out there's people that you can draw from?

[00:35:14] And then the third word sacrifice, you know, we've had times where we've wanted to do the thing where we're sending a guy out, we're paying a salary for, you know, a year or something like that along with their initial, you know, church budget expenses.

[00:35:30] Where we've wanted to do that, but the only way for us to be able to afford to do that was by us not backfilling his position once he left.

[00:35:40] And so sacrifice means hey, we're going to sacrifice financially for this guy, but our team, our staff and our volunteers, we're going to sacrifice as well because we're not going to think about backfilling his role for another year.

[00:35:57] So the responsibility now falls on us to collectively pick up the slack that he's left behind. Well, do you, do you, on long same lines, do you allow this person, let's say they want to, hey, I want to, I want to recruit a team to go with me.

[00:36:18] I really, I got this great vision and want to go out. I'd really like to invite, you know, some people to come. Do you encourage that? Do you discourage that? Do you set limitations on, you know, their recruitment, how, how do you handle that kind of sense?

[00:36:34] That kind of scenario. You have to let me know where could go wrong? No, right? Yeah. David.

[00:36:42] It's tough to deal with that isn't it? I mean, you have to really reckon with the fact, I've got people either on staff or just like high level servants at the church that I feel they would be very difficult to replace.

[00:37:01] I think the issue is more a lot of times it's how the recruitment is done. Right.

[00:37:07] Any one of us, no matter what person it would be serving at our church in whatever capacity, we would all say if the Holy Spirit was really leading them to go with somebody, we'd be behind it.

[00:37:20] What was it was? What we're kind of against is the idea that recruitment may happen in a manipulative way, in a less than transparent way.

[00:37:31] And so to me a lot of times with recruitment, it's how it's done that's more important than whether or not it's done or who goes. That's so good.

[00:37:43] It feels to me it's always felt like one of those achy kind of conversations to have and especially when it comes to, you know, if a guy is saying I want to plan a church in Antarctica. Right. You know, it's like, hey, we're crew.

[00:37:59] If I do everybody, right? Yeah, sure. Anybody that says yes to that, that's gotta be the Holy Spirit, you know.

[00:38:06] But if it's like, well, I'm going to plan a church in the cool part of downtown, you know, next to this really edgy copy shop that everybody loves and it's like two minutes away. Right.

[00:38:18] You do feel that like, I don't know that I just want to open it up to you to recruit everybody. So that's where I think it just there needs to be conversation and dialogue and agreement whereas brothers you're coming together in unison together.

[00:38:35] I mean, part of a good planner is to say, I don't want to, I don't want to burn any bridges.

[00:38:40] I don't want to do anything that leaves the sour taste and the mouth of the church that's sending me either but I just found it takes some real honesty and dialogue and just getting there. Right.

[00:38:54] You know, I've had the, you know, I think just for clarity, all of our church plants have all been in either other states or they have a lot of people who are not in the church. Either other states or they have been in other countries.

[00:39:06] So we, I have yet to have somebody go like even to the next city over and so, you know, my perspective is a little bit different. So I've never faced that but having been somebody who was sent out by myself.

[00:39:23] You know, it's just me and my wife and our two little kids at the time, you know, having some people go with us sounds like that would have been amazing. Right.

[00:39:32] But I have seen, you know, on a few occasions where were some people did that and it didn't work out well. Right. You know, like there was a lot in the being a lot of friction and a lot of difficulty.

[00:39:42] So I think it really, really has to be, you know, prayed through. I do love the model of what Lee by Lesco did though when he went to Montana and he took, you know, there's like 20 young people that went with him.

[00:39:58] And their home, their whole focus was that they were all going to get jobs, you know, at places where, you know, college age and young adult people frequented. So that they could build relationships with them to invite them to this study. Right.

[00:40:16] And so, you know, to me that was an incredible strategy in a very unique way to do it but it turned out really, really well.

[00:40:24] Because once they started that Bible study, you know, these people had all built relationships with, you know, 20 other people who were interested in coming and it just turned into this snowball. Right.

[00:40:38] I think, you know, that would be a, I'd like to see somebody else model that and see how it goes or if it was that just a unique thing that God did with fresh life but I love that, you know, that approach.

[00:40:50] That works to the degree that it's, that it's sincere and genuine right that the people don't feel like you're trying to sell a man way. Yeah, totally. You know, yeah. And so that, that, you know, that's an integral part of it.

[00:41:03] There are conversely, there are those people that are really strongly opposed to the idea and the concept of sending teams because they come with distinct expectations and create a burden on the, on the would be would be planting pastor, you know, right out the gate. I don't know.

[00:41:23] I frankly, I've seen it work both ways and I think that all things considered, you know, sending people with, you know, others in support typically seems to be better in the experience and in the long run, you know, I've seen more success that way.

[00:41:49] What about this idea of maybe to shift gears a little bit here if it's okay?

[00:41:55] Is once you've sent somebody out, how do you practically support them over the long term and I think, you know, the key word there is practically is like the whole relationship goes and, you know, how do you do that as a, as a pastor? Any thoughts on that?

[00:42:21] Well, it, ideally, it's going to move to a more of a relationship with a colleague, right? You know, look, here's another fellow pastor. Here's another fellow leader. They're serving the Lord in my field and their field. I'm serving the Lord in my field.

[00:42:37] And it isn't wonderful that we can bless one another, support one another, do that kind of thing. So, I mean, hopefully that's kind of where you hope things were to be headed. You kind of don't want people to feel like they're in a perpetual subservience to you. Right.

[00:42:53] That's a little bit of a strong word, but, you know, I mean, it's, we're just colleagues together in God's work. We're all co-labours together. And, you know, that complication, that can be complicated when there's still kind of supported by you.

[00:43:09] But I think that's a good direction for things to go. No, amen. I like that. That's good. I had a conversation with a young pastor who we sent out seven years ago.

[00:43:21] And to barely close to us about 20 miles away, and it was at a church planning, little luncheon that we were hosting here for cultivate. And I invited him out, and, you know, we were just reminiscing on the last seven years.

[00:43:40] And I recognize now that I really dropped the ball during those first couple of years of him being out from us. We were giving financial support. And I know that we sent people with him as well. So, you know, he was very thankful for that.

[00:43:59] But he was more of a relational, is more of a relational kind of guy loves networking with other pastors. Just, you know, labs with the pastors luncheon and, you know, being with other guys.

[00:44:12] And I'm not really as much that way, you know, I, for me, it's like, if we're getting together, it's like, well, what are we going to accomplish? Right. That's the agenda, yeah. And I realized that I really hurt him by kind of neglecting that relationship.

[00:44:32] He, like David said, wasn't looking for me to be his boss or his overseer or anything like that, but he was looking for me to be in a relationship with him and the, and the,

[00:44:45] Just encourage it to be the initiator that would check in on Payment Housing going, and I know it's hard out there. It's got to be hard. How's your family? And, and I just wasn't regular enough in that.

[00:44:59] And so if I had to do it over again with him, I think in the lead up to going out, I would have done some deeper recon to try to figure out what kind of man I was dealing with here.

[00:45:11] Because some guys, that's not going to be what they're looking for and what helps them. So I would have done that. And then I think knowing myself, I would have figured out ways to systematize and make sure that that got on my radar. Yeah.

[00:45:30] So that I was faithful in reaching out to him. You know, my oldest daughter is off at college right now. And I've got a repeated thing in my to-do list that reminds me like, hey, call her, reach out to her.

[00:45:43] And I know because that out of sight out of mind thing, I'm very susceptible to that. So I think I would have made more of a plan to be over his church every three months or so, not even to speak, but just to visit.

[00:45:56] I think I would have taken him out to lunch once a month. You know, I'd have done things to really gel us together. Right. So what you say is so good and it's so convicting because I was guilty of the same thing.

[00:46:08] I sent, you know, a couple of guys out most recently both implanted in Tennessee about 45 minutes apart from each other. And I told them both the same thing. I just said, look, I really am horrible about initiating contact.

[00:46:22] I just know that about me. So, you know, if I just need to warn you that I'm not good at this. But if you call me, I'll make it a priority to take your call. But in hindsight, that really wasn't good enough.

[00:46:35] And in fact, ironically, I just had coffee with one of them yesterday and he was in we had made time to go visit them in in Tennessee at the beginning of the New Year. And he was telling me he is one of those,

[00:46:51] those relational guys that you just described. And he was telling me how much it meant to him. And he said, I didn't even know I needed that. But when you, when your wife came out and spent time with us,

[00:47:02] how, you know, basically it really filled up their cup. And not stuff that you really think about proactively, but it makes a world of difference to these guys. To me, this is a really hard thing because with some people, no matter what you do,

[00:47:19] it's not going to be enough, you know? Yeah. And so I have had the, I'm very much like you, Ted. And so I just tell the guys that we've sent out. I tell them this, I say, look, I am not a good initiator.

[00:47:36] I said, it's not that I'm not thinking about you or that. You're not on my heart, but I said sometimes I'll come in and I'm like, I'm going to send emails to these three missionaries. And then just stuff gets going in the day and it doesn't happen.

[00:47:49] So I tell, I tell every single one of them this. I'm not a good initiator, but I'm a great responder. If you call, I'll pick up and I do. Or I get back to them that day. But it's funny.

[00:48:04] I have one guy right now who's just so mad at me because he just feels like I've let him down. And I got wind of this. I need to have a conversation with him because he's just, he's like a better. I'm not better right. But it's just hard.

[00:48:22] So one of things I did was I had our missions pastor. Like it's part of his job. You have to be the initiator. Yeah. You have to be, you know, this is part of your job district description to reach out to these guys.

[00:48:39] But this is what's interesting even in that with some guys. It's not good enough because if it's not me, then they're kind of hurt. And so, you know, one of the things that we did in this though, too was we had our home groups.

[00:48:57] Each one of our home groups adopted one of our church plants and missionaries. And so they kept in contact with him when they came to town. They'd throw a big party for him. They'd send them gifts at Christmas.

[00:49:12] And that was something that we found to be really, really, you know, helpful. And then they would report to me sometimes like, hey, so I'm supposed to really go through a hard time.

[00:49:22] You know, be probably good if you gave them a call and all that type of thing. So that was helpful, you know, that it definitely needs to be a team effort, especially the more, you know, plants that you have. Right.

[00:49:35] Because it's, you know, it's challenging the more you have to keep in contact with all those different people. Right. David, for you in Ingalil, what was your experience in terms of, the things that you needed logistically, relationally, emotionally, spiritually?

[00:49:53] One attitude we adopted and we really tried to pass this on to other missionaries was that the burden of communication is on you. You're the missionary. I mean, maybe I'm a little bit like Nate when he said he's susceptible to the out-asite out-of-mind thing.

[00:50:13] But that's how I am. And I think that you just got to realize that if you are the church planter, if you're the missionary, just sort of pining away waiting for somebody to contact you, you need to ping them.

[00:50:28] You need to approach them and just say, hey, I just wanted to fill in on what I'm doing. Not that daily, here's everything that's going on, you know, kind of text message or email that you described before.

[00:50:41] But again, just the realize, look, the burden of communication, of initiating communication. You should feel like it's on you. David, you just freed me. I love you.

[00:50:54] But I'll say this too, and this is maybe a word to the church planner or the missionary that might be listening to this, is that sometimes when we go out and I know, man, the first six months, eight months for us was so slow when we were planting.

[00:51:13] It was so slow. And you just feel like you have nothing to report. You look at, especially if you come out of a very active church, you can feel like nothing's happening here. And so I encourage our missionaries, just tell us what God's teaching you.

[00:51:29] You know, share a devotion with us. We just want to hear from you. We don't need a grandiose report of how many people got saved or we just need to hear, hey, here's what the Lord is teaching me. Here's what He's doing in my life.

[00:51:47] But I love the fact that, you know, I agree wholeheartedly with you that, you know, them putting that burden for communication on them is I agree. Right. Well, but let me add to this though, I wouldn't say that to like a mission's pastor just sit back.

[00:52:03] You know, I've never done a deliberately have different messages from different people. Yeah, totally. You know, I'd say to the missions pastor, hey, you go out there and get engaged and do all that.

[00:52:11] But I would without reservations say to the missionaries, if you're feeling neglected, you need to initiate communication. Right. Good. Thank you. Thank you, David. Now when we talk about supporting, sometimes we've got guys that come to us, whether it be missions or it be church planting.

[00:52:34] And they've got a vision for a venture faith. God's called me to this and you just don't see it, you know, you're like, man, I cannot, I can't confirm this. I can't see this. So, so how do we support people in that kind of a scenario?

[00:52:53] So, I've had to do this three times and it's tough. And two of the times did not, didn't go well but it's a hard conversation. And the way I approached it was this way as I said, look, you know, I love you.

[00:53:15] You know, I know that you feel this calling, you know, on your heart and your life. You know, we've got to be honest with you that, you know, our leadership, we're just not seeing it right now.

[00:53:26] But, you know, I'm not going to say that you're not hearing from God, you know, and I would love to be wrong. And so the way that we've approached that is we've said, look, we're going to pray you out definitely.

[00:53:40] We will pray you out but we're not committing to support you in this venture faith, you know, financially or the way that we would, you know, have done with others. But, you know, we definitely want to pray you out.

[00:53:54] We're going to continue to pray for you and support you. And but we're going to step back and kind of like a Jonathan and his armor bear type of situation. Let's just see what the Lord does.

[00:54:06] And if the Lord makes it really clear that he is in this, then we'll get behind you 100%. And, you know, we'll put it maybe a time limit or something on that. And in two of the situations, you know, the Lord proved that he wasn't in it.

[00:54:24] And unfortunately, you know, those guys got very bitter, you know, at us. But in one of them, the Lord did prove that he was in it and we did get behind him. And it turned into, you know, a very great church plan, you know, that happened.

[00:54:38] So that's the way that we've approached it in those three times that we've had to deal with it. And it's not fun. So when you pray a malady, bring it in before the congregation to pray about?

[00:54:49] Yeah. Even if you don't discern that, yeah, I mean, just a sense of saying that, you know, hey, this, these are our brothers and sister. And, you know, they're feeling this call and so we want to be, we want to pray for them.

[00:55:02] You know, but there is a, I think a noticeable distinction with the body that that was a little bit different than the way that we sent that guy out last year.

[00:55:12] You know, but it's just a sense of like, hey, these guys are feeling a step of faith and, and so, you know, one thing that we can do for them is pray for them. Right.

[00:55:23] And because again, you know, who am I to say that somebody's not hearing from God? Right. You know, even though it doesn't look like it to me doesn't make sense to me. You know, I would love to be pleasantly surprised. So that's the way that we've handled that.

[00:55:42] And if you guys had to deal with that at all, you know, they say some people are sent and other people just went. And you know, some of the went ones work out okay, like you're kind of talking about yeah, they do.

[00:56:01] You know, we'd like to pretend that we have a perfect discernment and we can, you know, pick all the winners and predict all the losers.

[00:56:08] And but all we can do is just rely on the discernment the best that we can and keep in touch with people and, you know, if we feel like we made a mistake one where the other is things develop just kind of be real about it and deal with it from there.

[00:56:22] But it is it's one of the real things that we have to deal with.

[00:56:25] So this has been a great conversation guys and really just have enjoyed all your insights in this. And unfortunately, we lost Nate's audio but David, do you have just any kind of closing thoughts on this subject of church planning and supporting missionaries and church planners?

[00:56:44] You know, sending people out as church planners is missionaries, you know, workers for the kingdom. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work to do it right. And but it's really worth it. It's really part of the kingdom purpose that we have.

[00:56:59] It prevents us from being just sort of drawn in upon ourselves. And I really think it's a way that we consciously fulfill the great commission on a lot of different levels. So yeah, I think it's really, really important despite the work, despite the landmines that come along sometimes.

[00:57:17] It's something we should really be dedicated. And I think this conversation has been helpful for some guys towards that end. Hey, man. Thank you, David. All right. Thanks Nate. Thank you guys both so much. It's pleasure having you on. Look forward to having you on again. Great.

[00:57:31] Thank you. Thank you for listening. Our goal with this podcast is to help you lead well through all seasons and challenges of ministry like. So we'll see you next time on the Leadership Collective.