Rob Salvato and Ted Leavenworth are joined by Rod Thompson (Reliance Church) and Aaron Sabio (Calvary Vista) to discuss their experiences of learning to create and maintain robust and flourishing discipleship relationships.
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Reliance Church — reliancechurch.org
Calvary Vista — calvaryvista.com
[00:00:02] Well, hey, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Collective Podcast. Today we're going to be looking at practical discipleship How we prepare and empower leaders day by day There was always that undertones of
[00:00:18] You know that that four step approach words I do and that I do you watch and then you do I watch and then you do
[00:00:26] And I saw you guys kind of play that out and again there was no real formula as to the length of time of you know each kind of section But there was a An understanding I see this in you so it was really inspiring
[00:00:40] It was here's the vision for your life I see you have maybe an influence over people for the gospel And I see that you have these giftings, you know, and let's try this out So it was kind of like a ride along a tag along thing
[00:00:53] Where we were able to observe and partner up with you guys in the work of the ministry doing meaningful tasks Ted, I am so excited about our conversation today And we've got some awesome guests
[00:01:05] We have Rod Thompson, a long time missionary church planter in Europe as well as a fantastic disciple And now he heads up the Calvary International Training Institute right there in Temecula, California
[00:01:21] And we also have on today Aaron Sabio, Aaron is the young adults pastor at the church where I get to serve Calvary VISTA And he heads up our discipleship and intern training program And he is doing a fantastic job with that So welcome to the program guys
[00:01:40] Thank you, great to be here Yeah, it's so good to be here So some foundational scriptures for our episode today You know, I think of Matthew 28, 18 through 20 Great commission, go and make disciples of all the nations Baptizing them and the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit
[00:02:00] And teaching them to observe all things that I've commanded you and the promise that he'll be with us even at the end of the age I think of Paul's exhortation to Temeathy In 2 Timothy 2 to, hey, the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses
[00:02:16] To faithful men who are going to be able to teach others also And then Paul's exhortation to the Ephesians as well Just explaining that he gave some to be apostles and prophets and evangelists and some pastors and teachers
[00:02:30] And here's the heart for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry For the edifying of the body of Christ Until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man
[00:02:43] So since you're perfect, Rod, we asked you to be on the show today To the measure of the Statue of the Holy Spirit and all seriousness Yeah, this is our heart and I'm wondering, you know, obviously to accomplish this
[00:03:00] There's the formal, you know, if you will, die-dactic instruction, you know, the bookwork part of things But there's also sort of that, that informal or I guess it could be formal as well But there's also that component that is the practical instruction, the clinical instruction
[00:03:22] You know putting, putting feet on your faith and kind of living it out in the body of Christ So let's talk about the balance between the two How, I'll start with you, Rod, how do you approach to kind of the balance between the two
[00:03:35] And we're talking about this, this act of discipleship Yeah, I think the verse that you just mentioned in Ephesians chapter 4, 11 and 12 It's for the equipping of the saints for work Yeah, for the work of ministry
[00:03:48] And what I've learned is that you really can't equip somebody without giving them some meaningful work to do And so the, you know, usually I break up the, you know, mentorship program In the two, you have the practical and you have the academic
[00:04:07] Yeah, in the academic, I break it up in the two Or I want to teach people how to study the Bible And it's more than that because they can learn to study the Bible online
[00:04:19] They can get a class so it's more me being able to sit down with the group of people Teach them how to study the Bible but also transfer my passion for God's word And give them the same heart, try to, in that environment And then practical theology
[00:04:39] Because, you know, I, Rob, know as I went out on the mission field as a plumber You know, and I became a pastor in Hungary And I got the practice on the Hungarians, you know And I wish that I knew some things, you know, theologically
[00:04:58] And you know, before getting thrown into the past, right? And so I try to give the people that I'm mentoring to Especially those are going to be called into pastoral ministry Some of the things that I wish I had Yeah, yeah No teacher like a burnt finger
[00:05:15] Yeah, I've been in those circles with many of you guys in those discipleship context Specifically even more so with Rod Thompson at the Bible College and Conference Center For a number of years in the practical slash academic training
[00:05:30] You know, we use the terminology more is caught than taught So what you learned in those circles together was how to be a disciple Worth multiplying and I think that actually validates all the academic things That you can get towards and teach
[00:05:44] But what I appreciated about those circles was we were looking at the insides of our heart As we were discovering how to study God's word together There was always that sense where we could know a lot But the end goal is discipleship Not fairity training, right?
[00:06:00] So that's why I really appreciate it those times We were learning how to love the Lord While we were learning how to study God's word and teach at the same time Yeah, and I think you really have to be, you know, open to
[00:06:13] Who it is that you're working with And, you know, because I don't think there's a cookie Cutter way to do this and I've had certain guys that I've worked with In fact, I'm working with a guy right now who, you know, he's works a full time job
[00:06:32] He really doesn't have the time to be able to go to Bible College Or, you know, that type of thing but what I've seen in him is that he is a great self-learner So I'm able to, you know, give him things to learn
[00:06:48] And then we get together and talk about it and, you know, that sort of thing And I know for me personally, you know, I got called into ministry when I was In freshman in college And I was going to Vanguard University at the time
[00:07:02] And they actually had a class there that was a future Ministers fellowship they called it So all these guys that wanted to be pastors were in that And I joined the group and it was interesting because I ended up
[00:07:17] Dropping out my first year of college there and I just ended up Serving at Calvary Coast to Mesa practically And in the high school ministry and so at the end of the four years of college
[00:07:33] These guys that I was in that class with, you know, Vanguard's an AG school So what they do is they take guys when they're graduating and they assign them to churches And so these guys had a ton of classroom work
[00:07:48] But they had no idea what they were going to be doing In fact, only they were scared to death I had three years of just practical ministry And at the same time I was being hired to come down here to VISTA
[00:08:02] To be the high school pastor and I knew exactly what I was supposed to do Because I had been doing it for three years serving under the high school pastor At Calvary Coast to Mesa and just a volunteer place
[00:08:16] But I was also a self-learner. I was very, very disciplined in my study You know of the word and you know of ministry in general So I think it kind of, you have to think about Who am I working with here? Right? What's their situation?
[00:08:33] And your story, Rao, exclamation points, Aaron, what you had said I was quoting the saying that Morris caught and taught Obviously we've all heard that But yeah, I found that to be true in ministry It certainly worked that way for me as well The academic, didactic work
[00:08:56] It's beneficial. It can't be neglected But if it wasn't for the actual practical hands-on opportunities That I was given, that's where it really clicked for me as well And I kind of think that that's the magic of Calvary Chapel over the years too
[00:09:12] For those of us that are in the Calvary Chapel, you know, movement Or coming out of the Calvary Chapel movement Yeah, because we don't have to really go four years To school in order to start ministry Right? Yeah
[00:09:26] In the thing about like the practical theology that I'm talking about What you can do with that is It's more cotton-taught And in those settings where you're going over certain doctrines It's where you can pass on who we are You know, the distinct doctrinal differences
[00:09:50] Then we have maybe what some of the other evangelical brothers And says, that's kind of where you can kind of impart that And clarify for them, make them kind of come study it So that it becomes, you know, they understand it
[00:10:06] I believe that this is who I am too Right? Rather than, you know, what do you believe in the pre- Tribulation Rapture Right? Because Chuck said that's a weird thing I mean, you know Right? Now there's more to it to that Right?
[00:10:24] Try to get their heads around that Yeah Exactly So this idea then of putting somebody behind the wheel We all understand the value of that And so kind of what informs Getting them behind the wheel And I know guys, you know
[00:10:39] I think just to answer my own question Then I haven't really even asked yet Is what you were saying Rob about how it's highly individualistic It all depends on the candidate that you're training And I think we can be probably lean into that
[00:10:53] And you know, just picking up the differences there But, you know, how soon do we get the person behind the wheel Is the open-ended question So Yeah I think it's a great question In my ministry experience working with all you guys And some sort of capacity
[00:11:09] What I appreciated was You threw us into the swimming pool But you swam with us It wasn't swimming figure it out It was as you go We'll be learning together Right Now you guys gave us real opportunities To get behind the pulpit And to encourage
[00:11:25] But it was also after time spent behind the scenes So again, going back to what you were saying Pastor Ted with that relationship Last week there's no real formula I think that he's ready Because I think there's always going to be a sense
[00:11:37] We're never going to be ready And that's what almost qualifies us Because we're going to be more dependent on the Lord But there are more seasons where you're like Okay, they're there They have been faithful in a few things Let's give them kind of smaller opportunities
[00:11:51] So I kind of think of not automatically jump into a Sunday morning service But maybe a staff devotion Or maybe sharing a devotion with youth leaders Or the children's ministry leaders And seen faithfulness that way And then with those opportunities Those doors kind of open up
[00:12:08] As you're being mentored and trained through those opportunities So I appreciate the fact that you guys gave us real things Hey, hey swim But let me swim with you Yeah, and I think that You know, you start by looking at the heart
[00:12:24] And what I want to see in somebody that You know, is maybe comes to me and is interested And you know, hey, I want to be disabled Or I like to be in ministry I'm looking first of all at their heart
[00:12:39] And do they have a heart for Jesus? Do they have a heart for the body? Are they servant minded? Is that something that's going on? When the passage that you read earlier It spoke about faithful men And I think that that's something that is really, really key to
[00:12:59] That I'm looking for Guys that are faithful They can be faithful in the little things You know, and who are just have a heart for that And I think when we finally put somebody into a position The body, you know, the church should never be surprised
[00:13:19] They should never be like, you know, that guy is now a pastor Or That's how I believe because what I see You know, is that I'm looking for people who are already doing it You know, they're already, I see them after church praying with people
[00:13:35] I see them, you know, going and talking to the guy Who is brand new, I see them, you know, looking at the needs That are going on, you know, in the church and the practical needs And so, you know, those are the things that I'm looking for
[00:13:49] But having said all of that, you know, that's the question Ted, because I've been thinking about this a lot lately Of how soon, you know, how soon is it To put somebody behind the wheel And, you know, I don't want to open up a can of worms here
[00:14:05] It's open You know, I'm a little bit, you know, there is a move right now You know, in our movement, you know, towards seminary And, you know, that type of thing I know Ted, you're going to seminary I did a year of seminary
[00:14:26] I know a lot of guys that are doing that now And I think it can be absolutely helpful But I'm, you know, I'm a little cautious about I hope that we don't make that sort of thing Or even Bible college And, you know, a prerequisite for people
[00:14:48] Because I can't get over, you know, pastor Chuck Send and Greg Lory at 19 To Riverside Right. Oh, and take over that church Or, you know, you rod going to Austria to go and be a plumber And then it's like, hey, we need somebody to go teach the Bible
[00:15:06] And then I know my first opportunity To go and teach on a high school campus I had never taught a Bible study in my life I had no idea what I was doing But, man, God was so faithful in that
[00:15:21] And so I think where I'm at in my own heart Is, you know, definitely I'm always looking for the person You know, that has that desire And, you know, what does the word tell us? He who desires the office of a, you know, pastor desires
[00:15:39] A good thing. So I'm looking for a person that has that That heart But I'm also wanting to be willing to take risks Right with hope And, you know, but like Aaron said, I'm not going to take a risk by putting somebody
[00:15:57] A risk that I won't take is I'm not going to put somebody That I've never heard And finally, the people on Sunday morning to teach Right I'm going to do that But I might take a risk with somebody That and I've done this
[00:16:10] Where others are kind of scratching their head Going, Robert, you sure, you know But, but I'm like, you know, I see something in this guy And I want to see where the scows, you know, so We're going to invest in them and give them some opportunities
[00:16:21] Yeah, I agree with you Rob. I just As you're talking, I'm thinking back to My early days in the ministry I actually predates any service in ministry In all my formal education was with the fire service You know, I went to the engineers academy
[00:16:38] And went to the to paramedics school, you know All of the medical training that goes with that And the fire service training I wasn't receiving ministry training And so, you know, my first exposure was just to A, the faithful teaching of a pastor
[00:16:58] Coming over to our house, taking us through the word And then an invitation that I received To teach in a youth group Which kind of lit the fire of this Calling to do more and it was these small Invitations and that goes back Aaron
[00:17:17] Just you would quoted Luke chapter 1610 As your faithful and little The Lord will make you faithful and much And so just having that opportunity given to me And it wasn't an opportunity to get behind the pulpit And preach, it wasn't an opportunity to plant a church
[00:17:36] It was an opportunity to teach some kids About the Bible, you know, that was that was the first thing Yeah, I think it goes obviously We're talking about delegation And so how much do you delegate to people And so when you have somebody that you mentoring
[00:17:55] You know, you always, it's like I did internship programs for many years And so I gave them actual things to do Meaningful things But in context where there's checks and balances I didn't just cut them loose Yeah
[00:18:11] So that when, you know, if they, I gave them room to make mistakes Right But the mistakes that they would make In that environment Wouldn't be detrimental to the ministry Yeah, you know, it'd be learning, learning for them But when they showed faithfulness and they showed diligence
[00:18:27] Then you give, you're able to give them more You know, responsibility And I think of Aaron at the end He was pretty much, he was running the on the edge program In Murrieta And I did, you know, there's certain people that you can delegate to
[00:18:43] That you don't have to worry Right Just kind of give it to them and it's out of your mind And I saw Aaron Payed him on the back for me, Rob And he grew into that So I didn't have to worry Right Yeah
[00:18:58] Hey, Rod, I want to, I want to just dive down for a second Because you said something that just caught my ear You said that you were giving You would give guys meaningful things to do And I think that's an interesting statement Because I'll be honest
[00:19:15] It isn't usually my first mode of operation You know, I'm going to give somebody something to do That sort of is a test Like, you know, clean the bathroom Oh, yeah Oh, that's set up chairs Our goal run in Aaron
[00:19:34] And you know, and some of you might not look at that as being meaningful Meaningful to me But can you just explain a little bit The balance between those two Because I know you and I know that You see the also the benefit of sort of
[00:19:51] Testing, you know, somebody's heart It actually put context in that Because the context is these guys That were in the internship program I already knew them They've been Bible college students for a couple of years Right And so I saw them, you know, in the, in the Bible
[00:20:09] In the Bible College they had a Christian service program Where they would have to do eight hours a week And so, you know, they didn't know it But I was watching what they were doing in the Christian service program Because as you guys were talking about
[00:20:25] You know, it's a matter of the heart isn't it And so if they were servants there That caught my attention Because I don't know if you guys remember Guy named Lee, I have Coco Yeah I was going to turn around Chrysler I think he was him who said
[00:20:41] You know, I wouldn't much have Have somebody with a good heart Then with a good, with good knowledge Because I can't teach a heart Right But I can't give them the instruction I can't give them the knowledge Right And so I've already kind of watched and do that
[00:20:57] Is the point And then they become an intern And then I'll say, okay, you're going to, you're going To oversee an outreach When I was in Europe we would do Tendi outreach is part of the curriculum You're going to oversee this outreach
[00:21:12] But he was always connected to one of the pastors Over seeing them So they weren't cut loose totally Yeah, okay that makes sense Yeah There was always that undertones You know that, that four-step approach Where it's I do And then I do you watch
[00:21:32] And then you do I watch and then you do And I saw you guys kind of play that out And again, there was no real formula As to the length of time of, you know, each kind of section But there was a, an understanding
[00:21:45] I see this in you So it was really inspiring It was here's the vision for your life I see you have maybe an influence over people For the gospel And I see that you have these giftings You know, and let's try this out
[00:21:59] So it was kind of like a ride along a tag along thing Where we were able to observe and partner up With you guys in the work of the ministry Doing meaningful tasks And I think that's very biblical Because we see, you know, that example
[00:22:13] In Scripture with say, you know, a Lijah and a Lijah We see that example in Scripture with Paul and Timothy And Paul and Titus, Paul and Silas And absolutely we see it with Jesus in the 12 You know, or it's that, you know, hey come
[00:22:33] Come along, come and watch come with me I know a lot of my, as I was being disabled in ministry A lot of it was as simple as, you know, going to lunch With my pastor or going with him on a hospital call
[00:22:52] And watching how he ministered to somebody That was in the hospital and then talking about that After words and it wasn't even a thing where he was like, okay, hey, I'm going to show you
[00:23:02] How to do a hospital call now. It was just like, hey, I'm going to go do this hospital call Right now why don't you come with me? Okay, you know, and I think Some of the best conversations I've had with guys have been
[00:23:14] You know, driving in the car and, you know, or in a setting like that We're going to a hospital call together I love doing, you know, that type of thing And I think, you know, that's one of those moments in the program
[00:23:28] Rob where what you just mentioned is something worthy of Jawning down and making a mental note of that That hey, I can be proactive in inviting somebody Just to go with me. You know, one of my guys, hey, go with me
[00:23:41] To do this hospital call as you said That's a great example Well, I think one of the things that you're saying there Ted, that's really important To point out is that discipleship has to be intentional Right. It has to be intentional
[00:23:56] If you're going to disciplesh somebody, there has to be an intentionality To it what that is going to look like Look, you know, different but there's has to be, you know, an intentionality It doesn't just happen
[00:24:11] And don't you guys think and throw it out for all of you guys But Rob, you know, maybe you can get the ball rolling here You know, I think one of the big hindrances To intentionality and discipleship, I know it has been for me
[00:24:25] Is it sometimes it just reflects more work Sometimes there's the thought of, man, it's just easier if I handle this If I just do this, you know How have you kind of overcome that maybe Rob? Well, you know, I was taught a long time ago
[00:24:45] That my approach toward ministry needs to be That I'm working myself out of a job And so I think that the way that I've approached those type of things Is I always say this, you have to hold ministry with a loose grip
[00:25:06] And so in letting people do something Yeah, it would be easier for me to do it myself I have the first of all come to the conclusion or the realization That they're probably going to do it differently
[00:25:22] Then I would do it and I need to be okay with that So there are certain things that you have to kind of pick and choose You know like okay what are some things here that are absolutely You know, no, you know, I can't bend on this
[00:25:40] This has to be done this way, well okay that's going to be something That I might have to do myself for a while until I can see You know this person gets it and understands You know what our value is and why we do this
[00:25:52] But then there's other things where it's like I just have to be open To let that person do What they're going to do the way that they would do it And oftentimes what's really cool is I end up being surprised by
[00:26:08] The result where I'm like instead of being disappointed Like oh now I see why they did that that's pretty awesome So it to me it's keeping a loose grip and But also you know, I think what you're speaking to Ted is the
[00:26:22] There is the training aspect that afterwards Okay, now I need to sit down and talk with this person About this and that's the thing that you just have to embrace That if you're going to disciple you have to realize that's part of the process Yeah, yeah
[00:26:38] What I was in Europe this is how I got it being involved in doing this You know I planted a church in Hungary We plant we help plant a church in Serbia And then I moved to Austria and I helped plant a church
[00:26:51] So I can I can do one at a time right But then the opportunity came from reading Take over the conference center Bible College in Austria And the reason why I did it is because you know, especially I mean there's still great need in Europe
[00:27:07] But we there's well over a couple hundred churches now in Europe Then there was none right right and so You know I kind of reasoned in my mind I can do one or I can pour into ten guys and they can do ten
[00:27:23] Yeah, and so that's that's what got me involved in it But when this is what I try to encourage passage because it is it is work Like you said you have to be intentional You have to you know take time to do it
[00:27:38] But the time your time pays off right like you know the interns that we had It any given time they became a very valuable kind of spiritual force in the ministry They were connected with the kids with the other kids
[00:27:56] And so you end up that's not your intention And I'll get an internship just so you have a workforce But you end up having that yeah, you know, and pouring in as you pour into them
[00:28:10] And unless they sit I don't know how you guys are but I'm 61 years old I'm going to die Yeah At some point You know right and I think I think Calvary Chapel we need to In a general sense and I know by you guys are all doing it
[00:28:31] But in a general sense have we really you know been able to raise up The next generation that's going to be able to take this movement even further after we're gone You know and that's what my heart is now right It's less raised some people up the quippum
[00:28:52] You know so that they can be as successful as possible in the ministry The God's called right And yeah, that's what I have learned what you guys are talking about is this idea of Look it is delegation It's not easy it's it's actually hard
[00:29:12] Yeah, you know just the intentional discipleship is not easy it requires work And so going into it thinking well I'm just going to delegate this A lot of guys there approach the idea of delegation in a complete opposite Thing is completely the opposite of discipleship
[00:29:31] It's I want to get this off my plate Right And and even some guys can go into this idea of you know air quotes discipleship When really what it is is sort of an attitude or an idea of You know I need some workers kind of thing
[00:29:48] And so that's where and people see right through that I think they they're like I'm just a I'm just a cog in your wheel you know for for something And it it sort of lacks a kingdom focus and so being able to go into it
[00:30:05] You know having personally prepared myself to say no my job is to raise them is to is to pour into them Because as you were saying rub they God's got a work that he wants to do and oftentimes
[00:30:20] If we're just empower these these kids I'm 58 I'm younger than you But you know we'll be on power these kids right and get out of the way I mean they probably take this thing to places I never even dreamt about you know and but it but yeah
[00:30:36] I have to go into it with the idea of hey would you take this off my plate would you be a cog in my wheel versus
[00:30:42] I want to pour into you and I want to give you an opportunity to you know to borrow a mazloff turn to be actualized in your gifts You know yeah because I've had interns come from other places And where they've been really hurt right and feel
[00:31:02] Feel ripped off you know because all it was was a go for program go for those and go for that And there was no there was no actual mentoring take them place Right and I use this I use this example always because it kind of
[00:31:17] It really helps you understand as a mission I received many missionary teams coming over to help right Some of them were were a real blessing you know and they helped They went home they were blessed and some missionary teams I came they came over
[00:31:37] I had to kind of clean up out They were it was it was a nightmare and I thought it's a sorry Yeah yeah Aaron when he came long just shut up
[00:31:51] Now that you know what what I when I came to realize is that the teams that came over that were a blessing They came over to pour out right
[00:32:04] You know and you can tie this in with Paul so I don't want him to come the room in Romans chapter one 18 or 15 I think it is you know and so he he long to go to Rome that he may impart
[00:32:16] And then he says but I'll be moat mutually blessed by our faith and so the other teams that were not a blessing is they Watch this other youth group or whatever come back and they they're so encouraged
[00:32:33] They're passed through can't believe the impact that that mission trip out on these kids And so this youth pastor sees that and he says I want my kids to get that blessing And so now they're sending a mission team to get the blessing
[00:32:47] And yes what happened right they end up being a hindrance Yeah, they don't get a blessing Right and and I don't get a blessing So it's all about like how you approach
[00:33:01] These kids that these people are coming to you and and they want to receive and if you I mean this is the foundation for discipleship Is I'm John chapter 13 Jesus got up from the table So it's how and he went over there and he washed their feet
[00:33:18] But it's interesting he said he and he loved them and he loved them till the end So it was the love that he had for them and showed them that he loved them That you know made them want to receive from him
[00:33:38] We're going to pause for a minute Here from our friends at Coltavate Church Planting Initiative of CGM The gospel is the hope of the world and the world needs more gospel centered churches That's why Coltavate by CGM exists
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[00:35:20] We invite you to visit our website at cultivatechurchplanting.com Hey Ted, I want to just take a minute and I want to speak to the guy who's maybe listening to this
[00:35:34] Who is pasturing you know a smaller church and maybe he's the only guy on staff at his church I remember you know that when I was in that place when I was in Oregon I know you know for you Ted, when you were first start now
[00:35:52] You know what that's like and I think sometimes you know they can listen to this and think Well man, I don't have any interns and I don't have you know what am I supposed to do
[00:36:02] And I just want to say that I think that you still have to be intentional about looking for guys You know in your church that you can pour into that you can spend time with Even if it's just one
[00:36:17] Yeah, you know with the idea that eventually you're going to want to see that same guy do with others What you did with him right and um and you want to look for you know opportunities to give
[00:36:33] You know people a chance to share and teach and the same kind of principles of You know doing a hospital call and maybe that means that That because that person you're pouring into
[00:36:46] You know he works and he can't go on on a hospital call in the middle of the day like you can Because that's your job. So you're going to wait you're going to take him in the evening when you go and do that
[00:36:58] And I think it I just really want to encourage you know the guys that are listening to this that are not in that place To you know they don't have a staff or that sort of thing is to realize that
[00:37:10] They can still be involved in discipleship and that's what we're called to Right is make not converts but disciples and yes our pulpit teaching is a part of that But then it's taking it a step further and being intentional about you know getting with those guys
[00:37:29] And that that you can pour into in that type of way and you know sometimes for me what I've done
[00:37:37] Is I would get together with a group of guys early in the morning before they went to work and you know we would work through you know some books together
[00:37:48] That would you know just kind of give them an insight into to ministry and the way that I viewed ministry Because I just wanted them to be able like you said you know rod to capture my heart
[00:38:00] Because I was you know looking to see them and I think that this is the thing that we have to to Key in on is you know the passage you read from Ephesians is you know
[00:38:10] We are to equip people for the work of of ministry and that that is our goal is we want people Serving we want to see them developing their gifts we want to see them being used and that's not a bad thing
[00:38:23] You know that that's part of the the goal of us in the body of Christ and like I said before In one sense to work ourselves out of a job
[00:38:33] Yeah, you know that if I'm you know all take it one step further. I can only do one home fellowship I can't do 10 you know I'm going to do one on a night, but if I can raise up 10 guys to do 10 other home fellowships or disciple 10 other men
[00:38:50] Then you know I'm equipping people to do the work of the ministry and I'm multiplying myself Right, yeah, and I love your expectation about hey if you're in a small ministry, you know just
[00:39:04] Just find one person phone one person that you can begin pouring into and that works actually that council works for a large ministry as well as a small minister I remember Andy Stanley talked about doing for one what you would like to do for many
[00:39:18] And so he you know has a church of thousands and so he he himself is like I can't do for a thousand's but I can do for one We can apply that same principle whether we have a massive church whether we have medium sized church or small church
[00:39:33] You know I can always find one person that I can pour into that I can mentor that I can discipleship You know disciple and and so that's that's you know something that
[00:39:43] That we can do Aaron I got a question for you. Oh, you guys some to say so go ahead Yeah, I wanted also speaking to the reality too
[00:39:51] And you guys know this the people that you disciple sometimes they don't even stay in your local context. Right. They're going out and that's okay I want to see if I could write a letter to myself 10 years ago
[00:40:03] If not get discouraged when people leave your team, you know Because like there's a revolving door in leadership that is just natural like you raise them up if they stay praise God And if they leave praise God, but I would get so discouraged. I'll just start over again
[00:40:18] Yeah, I praise God a lot more when they say These types of discipleship, you know they could stay they could go and the end for day it is about building the kingdom of God
[00:40:34] So it's also another wind celebrate right and that's what God shows you. I mean right now we're in a season of God sending guys out to plant churches and do other works
[00:40:43] And God as as the leader of the church God will speak to you. He'll show you those things and so Yeah, what you're saying is so true being able to lean into that and embrace that and go okay
[00:40:56] This guys this guy's going out and so rather than saying okay, you know what your dead to me I'm gonna you know or you're gonna be going away. I'll pour into somebody around else who's gonna stick around
[00:41:07] No, being able to go okay. I'm kingdom mine just exactly like you said Aaron I'm kingdom-minded and so I go this guy's going out and I can see that he's got a blind spot here
[00:41:16] Or that he's got a weakness here, and so I want to teach him how the sausage is made in that regard So that he's better equipped to go out and And that's helpful, you know to do that now Aaron what we go ahead
[00:41:30] You know what's interesting about that Ted is you know we went through a pretty long period here where Everybody almost everybody that came on staff with us It was the understanding that in two to four years they were gonna leave to go
[00:41:49] Church, I mean that was kind of what where the Lord had us and the result of that in about a 20 year period We planted 18 church. Oh, God, but it was interesting because I had another pastor who he had the same group of guys
[00:42:06] For like 20 years same youth path or same worship guy same you know assistant pastor They really their focus wasn't on church planting you know at all and he asked me one time
[00:42:18] He said, you know does it discourage you when these guys leave you know when they end up going out or you know going on staff Maybe somewhere else and and I said you know at first it used to a little bit
[00:42:33] But I said but then I started looking at and thinking about you know if this guy hadn't left It wouldn't have opened up the door for this other guy to come on and and I've just seen I mean it's in so blessed to have some incredible guys
[00:42:48] That you know trace their lineage back here to Calre vista right and I just think about that that what God had did there In this you know sort of revolving door of ministry and guys that were you know stellar guys that we're going out and planting
[00:43:05] You know churches just opened up the door for a new person to come on staff and and be trained up and then you know watch them go out as well And so it became a part of our culture
[00:43:18] Yeah, yeah, it was a norm for quite some time. I just had last week I just had a conversation with David Gouset and he was saying that about that very dynamic and he was talking about how the church actually grows stagnant and how
[00:43:35] But but conversely when you're sending guys out and raising up new guys how it brings such a life and vitality To the sending church because you've got these these new guys that are that are coming in they're being developed and and obviously it's biblical that we should
[00:43:54] The things you've learned and seen in me come at these a faithful man will be able to teach others also in the implication is your your
[00:44:00] You're getting you know you're stepping out of the way you're making room for them and then you're you know sending him out and anyway he was just remarking on the
[00:44:10] Vitality that that brings to a church. So yeah, it's a great thing. I found that to be true to if you send People to build God's kingdom God will send you people right
[00:44:26] Because your building is kingdom. Yeah, you're not building your own kingdom. It's the same principles the guy who has the gift of giving and God
[00:44:33] You know he's got the gift of giving and so God says I'm gonna give you more because he can funnel it through through that guy Aaron my question for you So let's say you've got we've you know we've got someone out who's who's saying wow
[00:44:49] You know you talk about being faithful and little I'd love to be faithful and little and maybe maybe this guy is under or in a system where You know
[00:45:00] The one that he's hoping to get mentored by the one that he's hoping would give him would you would you give me Some duty some meaningful responsibility and maybe you know what he's experiencing is that there's a type that you know
[00:45:14] The the person who's in a position to do that isn't doing that they've got a tight grip On on things and and they're like I want an opportunity to get faithful So what are some ways for for person finds them in a place where man?
[00:45:28] I'm not being interested with little so that I can prove myself faithful and then be faithful and much So how can how can they work in that kind of a system? To be able to be entrusted with little yeah, that's a great question
[00:45:44] I'm a fan of honest communication If you're feeling this and feeling these desires like rub pointed up to these are good desires to be a part of the
[00:45:53] Minister to be a part of kingdom work and you're feeling stuffed up and maybe there are blind spots that you don't know You have but your leader does have and they're not giving you those Responsibilities because they see these things that need to be worked out
[00:46:07] So I have an conversation is there things in my life that are Stopping me from walking in these things and if it's not then maybe it's approaching at the conversation with can you give me a trial run?
[00:46:19] And you know you don't know what you don't know so a trial run can be Three weeks it can be a month it could be three months
[00:46:25] But hey can you give me a trial run for one month for me to share the staff devotions and to coach me in those different things I know maybe as that person kind of won in their foot in the door there's a humility
[00:46:38] I know I don't know everything but I don't know what I don't know So would you give me this trial run to help reveal some of the things that I don't know so that I can work on those things Right, I think that's a way to approach that
[00:46:49] Or send them the city. Yeah, we'll put it Yeah You know So giving them an opportunity to you know to be faithful and little and saying hey give me a trial run. I love that
[00:47:06] You know, I I also think that there's maybe opportunities where we can look for something that needs to be done and just start taking the initiative to do that Yeah, I've watched I've watched guys who they're not being given invitations
[00:47:21] And sometimes people are sitting around waiting to be invited to do something and maybe you can you can just you know ask God to give you and I to see Well, you know what could I do? How could I help? You know and just
[00:47:36] recognizing that hey you I've noticed that you know you're Always you know Needing help here or you're struggling in this way and you know I did that for you not looking for a pat on the back just to show yourself faithful and helpful to that person and
[00:47:52] Oh, be you know, man's gift makes room for him and brings him before kings the Bible says so maybe You know, just looking for those ways that you could That you could
[00:48:03] Proving faithful. Yeah, that's great. You know Ted. Well, let me just interesting about this is that we had a conversation About this recently as we were talking about the younger generation and how they they view things and you know
[00:48:17] Rod Ted myself were all you know similar age and and our generation we were all our generation took initiative Our generation was one I mean, I think you know
[00:48:28] I came up and ministered with a lot of guys that were go-getters and they were you know just you know Hey, what can I do and that was kind of the mentality and
[00:48:37] And you know and having a conversation with Aaron and another one of our youth guys your Tyler You know, they were telling me that the generation today needs to be invited And that was something that was very eye-opening to me
[00:48:53] You know because there was a little bit of frustration of you know How come these guys aren't taking initiative you know because that that was that came normal to us and they were saying Well, they need to be invited and I think that's a good word for us
[00:49:06] You know who are of the older generation to realize about the younger generation But I've even seen this in in some 40 year olds, you know that They're just waiting to be invited You know into something or to do something and
[00:49:24] You know I've seen I've had some guys in our church who were in the military and You know they would not take initiative. I have a guy on staff who he's a phenomenal
[00:49:34] But he wouldn't take initiative on anything and I invited him right and it was because that was his training like you know I answered to the chain of command and so I'm waiting for the chain of command
[00:49:46] For my orders, yeah, exactly. You know and that was just such a different mindset than what I was used to and what I came up in and so I just want to share that
[00:49:58] You know as something to be you know thinking about is I think there are people You know in our body who are You know looking to be invited and so I've been I've been doing that a lot over the last couple of years now
[00:50:11] Inviting guys to be involved in some different things and and to just kind of get their foot in the door and for me to get it to watch them You know lead a group or
[00:50:23] You know be involved in a leadership discussion or that sort of thing and and and so I think that's a yeah, I'd say on the other side of receiving that invitation it means the world to us, you know
[00:50:36] And I think as you invite also have maybe some standards of excellence of what that would look like Because we want to do well and to our the hierarchy that's inviting us in there
[00:50:48] So I've found in communicating with the interns that I have now have to be very specific with Even the standards of communication hey guys if I give a group text I can you like it at least to
[00:51:03] I had or particularly that they would read that but they wouldn't say anything so I'm thinking oh, they have no idea what's going on So just the standards hey I'm gonna invite you to this thing and you know having a little bit of a
[00:51:15] A cheat sheet for them to succeed goes a long way because then I think also with our generation we're a timid We're a timid generation There's a respect thing but that's all fair of man thing no one wants to get canceled and so we want to do things
[00:51:29] The best and so maybe I know like you guys said delegation is a lot more work So having that invitation but also coupling that with here's kind of a how to in some Of course is to point you in the right way. Let's go a long way
[00:51:42] I agree why hate it when you don't respond to my text You know I mean that you really that speaks to me because I never It was like an epiphany because You know I was thinking yeah Jesus actually he called these guys come
[00:52:02] Let's invite him in right I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna steal it Well, and so okay we invite let's say we invite somebody in can let's say they're just not cutting it You know they're just not cutting it so obviously
[00:52:21] You know we can't just say well you didn't work and move on so how do we handle that when they're not cutting it Yeah depends on what setting like in a context where I have an internship or like the school right you have a limited amount of time
[00:52:36] Right and so after they they finish You know if there are if there's opportunities for other people beyond that It's just maybe not an opportunity for that person If there if it isn't if it's more like a one on one discipleship program
[00:52:55] Yeah, that's awkward conversation yeah, yeah, or you pray him out one You know I want to just take a step back on that question. I think it's a great question But I'll say this you know I think I want to be Long-suffering as it relates to this and
[00:53:22] Maybe What really is happening and this is something I really tried to discern is maybe this person isn't really called to what they Think they're called yeah, and so I want to help them try to discover
[00:53:40] What they are called to right and have that conversation with them of like hey, you know what I don't I don't think God's calling you to be a a senior pastor or at least not right now
[00:53:52] But these are the gifts that I do see in you and these are the ways that I think God can use you And you know here's some areas where I think you still need to grow and you know
[00:54:02] I'm willing to you know work with you in in this You know if you're willing to right accept that now I will say this I have had some instances And it's it's been in the context is it's actually happened about three times where
[00:54:19] You know there were some guys who went through a training and they felt called to go in and plant churches and We just didn't see you know that they were ready or that was maybe really they're calling but they were just in fatic
[00:54:37] And so the way that we approached it was in this way as I said you know, okay tell you what you know If you really I mean I can't tell you that you're not hearing from God
[00:54:47] You know I don't see it. I don't I don't bear you know we're not bearing witness with it But this is what we're gonna do is you know you can go but we'll pray you out You know that you're going and we're gonna watch and if God
[00:55:02] proves you know that this is what he's called you to and and you know in a sense kind of proves us wrong We'll get behind you 100% right but we're gonna stand back and we're gonna just watch and see
[00:55:18] And you know out of the three times that that's happened there were you know two where You know it became very apparent to them after about a year. Okay, they were right I'm not called to this
[00:55:30] There was one instance where you know there was an individual who proved us wrong like oh no God is you know Behind this guy and so we're gonna get behind him you know
[00:55:42] So sometimes I'll you know approach it in that way but I like to be you know long suffering and really You know help people discover what they're they're gifting you know it's right
[00:55:56] You know there are some guys I've had some guys on my staff who you know they were not at all strong in the pulpit That wasn't their gifting but man they were incredible one-on-one
[00:56:10] Amazing disciples and mentors and and so I want to just champion that sort of thing How I like to approach that and for me I think it would be a matter of you know somebody not cutting it to use that term that you did
[00:56:26] Toad would be just their heart isn't in the right place. Yeah, so that's the type of person That I'm gonna sit down and have that hard conversation with you know them at hey We got some issues there's some hard issues here that you need to work out yeah
[00:56:41] In your life but if the hearts right I want to help them discover where they can flourish in the body of Christ Yeah, you're on the right bus. You're just in the wrong seat kind of thing and sometimes a person's in on the right bus
[00:56:54] And they're in the right seat and then sometimes it's a matter of Yeah, and God's doing a new thing or God wanted you in that seat for a season and now, you know He's he's moving you to a different seat on the bus
[00:57:07] Sometimes you know as you'd mentioned in the instance of church planning maybe it's yeah You were on the right bus and you were in the right seat and now he wants you to go out and you know drive another bus kind of
[00:57:18] And yeah, having the wisdom to know and and you know I like your observation there. It's like This person isn't cutting it, you know, let's let's look at is this is this a hard issue is this a calling issue is this a a gifting issue
[00:57:34] And really haven't taken the time to discern you know what it is and and it's precisely as you say Rob it comes through The patient long-suffering heart that's willing to say
[00:57:47] You know, I'm I'm not just concerned about the product that I'm going to get produced out of this cog in the wheel kind of attitude But no, I'm I'm interested in
[00:57:58] Sure, we've got a ministry and a mission to accomplish but part of that is to develop the individual Yeah, and if our calling really is to equip people for the work of the ministry and Really truly believe that everybody is called to some type of ministry
[00:58:13] Then we need to discover you know what that is and it might even be that okay What they're called to we just don't have right here at our church so does that mean that God wants them to Start that here or is it I'm gonna
[00:58:31] Direct them toward a of ministry in the area that fits better for them and that you know what they they have that ministry and you would be a great fit
[00:58:41] There I'm gonna call that pastor and tell them, you know that we're sending him you know their way type of thing Well, we we are
[00:58:53] Drawing near to the end of our program but I want to ask this question really to get some time to kick this around and that is Competitiveness and jealousy within the ministry You know sometimes when we're talking about developing people and preparing them for
[00:59:07] For ministry sometimes there can be that that Peter and John kind of a competitiveness that that happens within ministry so So how do you guys handle that when you encounter competitiveness in the ministry? Yeah, I mean I think one way to kind of
[00:59:29] Eliminate it as much as possible is what I found is like you when you do Step a faith or say this project It starts off as the kind of a group project, you know we come together
[00:59:43] We want to do this and then you know I always just listen everybody What they were saying and then Annathedly this person would have a great idea and it just became natural that that person's gonna do that part And so it became it's more like
[01:00:04] Everybody is involved in the planning and initiating it so There it kind of eliminates some of that right from the beginning okay, but I think at some point
[01:00:17] inevitably there's gonna be a little bit of that yeah, you know and then you have that maybe it just have a conversation and That you know that teaching moment and yeah humble myself under the mighty end of God
[01:00:29] Or the mighty end of God is going to humble you Yeah, we've adopted the phrase in our young adults in youth group. No ego and me go right So ego and me go to so we give each other as a leadership team the
[01:00:45] Opportunity to call out in love each other's blind spots. So there's an understand and going into a team that we're not perfect and we're People in process trying to help people in process so there's a humility coming into the team that we understand
[01:00:58] Hey, you have access to call it my blind spots I can I have access to call it your blind spots Because those things will pop up at random times you know so no ego me go and then it's the we
[01:01:09] Not me mentality. It's the what are we doing together as the body Not about what I'm contributing but how can we do this together for the glory of God that mentality going into maybe those leadership times of
[01:01:21] Academic coaching or those relationships over a meal they go a long way and there there's been Things in me that I didn't see that that was actually a pain your motive in doing that Aaron was to get a foot ahead or
[01:01:33] Step up and I'm thankful for the leaders that I'm talking to right now in the circle who have called out those blind spots lovingly Like a sometimes yeah, I didn't even know that's just my motive operation
[01:01:45] You know what one of the things that I've seen here at times is You know there there might be a couple of guys that are overly ambitious and you know
[01:02:00] They they they really you know have their eyes set on you know some things that they they want to do and so that jealousy or that shocking for position You know we'll start to creep in and ambition isn't
[01:02:21] You know a bad thing I mean it's interesting when you know the disciples were arguing about You know who was gonna be the greatest and Was it James and John asked Jesus that they kids on his right left hand
[01:02:35] He didn't review them for their ambition, but he taught them what real ambition You know what's supposed to look like but you know if I if I see somebody that just is one
[01:02:46] I'll put it this way they want it too badly, you know they they want to be up front too badly or they want to be You know to me again that that can be a hard issue and so you know I might pull back a little bit
[01:03:00] In their opportunities because I want to watch and see how they handle that you know I want to watch and see How they handle when the other guy gets the opportunity You know, so it's part of the training you know to to watch
[01:03:16] But what I have seen a little bit more of is You know the guy who maybe feels a little bit insecure because he Wasn't and maybe in his eyes as gifted as You know some of the other guys and and I can really relate
[01:03:36] I mean I I felt like I was that guy, you know when you know I just looked at all these guys around me that just seems so incredibly You know gifted and I just didn't feel like I measured
[01:03:47] You know up to them and and when I see that I really really try to encourage you know that individual to understand that There's a reason why they're here, you know, you know and I wouldn't give them an opportunity if
[01:04:01] You know I didn't see God's hand on them or I wouldn't ask them to teach if I didn't feel like they had something to say And so you know I think it's just a lot of being intentional about being you know hands on
[01:04:17] You know trying to not crush somebody who has ambition but trying to steer that in the right way and then you know maybe calling them on You know and attitude where there's a need for an attitude adjustment
[01:04:32] Yeah, yeah, I love that go ahead. I just say especially when you're dealing with younger Yes, I mean, come on let's be on the figure in it out they're working it out right and I was a knucklehead I 20
[01:04:47] Right wing give grace to to be it especially the younger guys that just working it out and and I love your wisdom there of of giving them Sometimes giving people humble tasks right and Because man there is no There's not a lot of
[01:05:09] Effective tools like that to be able to draw out of somebody who you see in somebody You know they're they've got they've got a competitive spirit. They've got pride and and giving them you know
[01:05:21] Maybe some humble hoops to jump through sometimes that's the smartest thing you can do that. Thanks for that Rob. That's really good Let's close with this what are some helpful books on the subject of discipleship
[01:05:33] Within the church day-to-day practical discipleship. Do you guys can you think of any helpful books to to recommend? Yeah, I got three off top of my head. I really enjoyed ten power principles for Christian service by warm
[01:05:51] Number two would be victorious Christian service by Alan Redpath a study through me and my Through the warfare side of the things too which is awesome and then a real practical inspiring doing church as a team by Wayne Cordero helps us
[01:06:08] Celebrate everyone's attend somewhere is kind of the thing everyone has a place to serve and help people get there is discipleship You know like you don't want to get there is discipleship. So those are my top three that's great
[01:06:18] I've got a few that I really appreciate as it relates to this one book I love to take guys through It's an oldie, but I just love it because I think it gives one of the best
[01:06:30] Examples of servant leadership that I've ever seen you know written and that's the Jesus style by Yellow one I love taking guys through that book another one for you know guys in ministry that for me is a must is liberating ministry From the success syndrome
[01:06:50] I can't use I think that's a Really really good one. I love lead by Paul Trip I think that's a phenomenal book and then for one this is one for guys that I think are You know really called the pastors. I love the book
[01:07:10] Shepherding the church by Joseph stole That's a favorite of mine as well and then Servant leader by weirsby I think is another great one kind of goes along with that 10 power principles Which is the weirdest name for a book but that book is
[01:07:27] Long that was not my list to Aaron 10 power principles for Christian service by years Be as it's in if you guys read that book. Yeah, I have it's actually on my list of books
[01:07:39] I was gonna recommend here today so it was all there's three of us that had that It just added maybe a dangerous calling by Paul Trip is a great one and you know if guys are really feeling called to Ministry you know, I love the classics like
[01:07:59] Like sure to my students yeah by Spurgeon and preachers and preaching but you can't memorial or Go to that's awesome. That's awesome The other book that I was gonna recommend three and you guys mentioned two of them one was 10 power principles by weirsby
[01:08:17] The other was the he's book liberating Ministry from the success syndrome so I was gonna recommend that as well and sticky teams by Our friend a bit Larry Taylor Yeah, I was sorry. Yeah, Larry Osborne sticky teams. I love that book
[01:08:36] In fact just had a occasion to to glance through it and he's got some great stuff in there So Right on great great talking with you all always Rob good to get together with you my friend
[01:08:48] Yep, too good senior guys and good to be together great topic and Love what you guys are doing and love Serving and partnering with you guys Yeah, thank you. Good to see you all. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I'm all right
[01:09:08] Thanks for tuning in to leadership collective as always we want to help you lead well in all areas of ministry If there's a topic you'd like us to cover or if you have questions about this or any other episodes
[01:09:22] We'd encourage you to contact us at church leadership collective dot com God bless you until next time
