Classic Episode - Managing Growth through Systems & Structures | Daniel Fusco & Miles DeBenedictis

[00:00:00] Today on the Leadership Collective Podcast, we're bringing you another classic episode. This is one that I personally learned so much from and I know that Ted did as well. So today our guests are the one and only Daniel Fusco and Miles DeBenedictis

[00:00:16] and they're talking about managing growth through systems and structures. And so this is going to be an episode I know you're really going to enjoy. And so here we are now with this episode, this classic episode of The Leadership Collective Podcast.

[00:00:32] Hello and welcome to the Leadership Collective Podcast. A conversation focusing on the challenges that leaders face in ministry. Each month we sit down with seasoned ministry leaders to discuss the nuts and bolts of how they've navigated specific challenges in ministry and the lessons they've learned along the way.

[00:00:53] I'm Ted Levenworth, pastor of Reliance Church in Temecula, California. And I'm Rob Sabato, lead pastor at Calvary Vista in Vista, California. Well today we're kicking off season two of The Leadership Collective Podcast and Ted and I are joined today by two great guys.

[00:01:12] Pastor Miles DeBenedictis from Cross-Connection Church in Eskendito, California and the one and only pastor Daniel Fusco from Crossroads Church in Vancouver, Washington. And today we're going to be talking about managing systems and strategies for growth in your team, in your church or in your ministry.

[00:01:36] Daniel and Miles bring some incredible insights to this subject that I personally have already implemented into our ministry. And I think that you are going to find this episode to be really, really helpful. And so now here is our conversation with Pastor Daniel and Pastor Miles.

[00:01:54] Well welcome to the program guys. Hey it's so good to be with everyone. I wish I could be in the room with you all. So if I get to be at a distance so. Daniel is joining us via Zoom for this conversation.

[00:02:07] I pretty much only ever see Daniel on a screen probably most of us at this point in time. So it's just normal here. Yeah. So it's great to have you guys on here. And today we're talking about managing growth through systems and structures.

[00:02:23] And Ted why you give us a working definition of systems and that process and just kind of what that looks like. Sure. So a system's a combination of processes or parts if you will that that work together to form the whole.

[00:02:39] So working definition in example might be mass transit and you know if you you have the system of mass transit. And it's purposes to efficiently move or transport you from one place to another. And so in order to accomplish that the system needs to have certain processes.

[00:03:00] And so you have to you know process for ticket sales a process for equipment maintenance for repair for you know safety processes. Et cetera. And then the idea is that all of these moving parts all of these processes they collectively form the system.

[00:03:18] Which which the purpose of which is to get you from point A to point B. And so the the ideas that the system is the what and the processes are the how.

[00:03:31] And so you know the idea you know if you don't have all the moving parts or if some of the parts aren't working correctly then.

[00:03:38] A system can come to a standstill it can be an ineffective system and and so that's the thing all of those moving parts are the processes that accomplish the the system and work together to form the system.

[00:03:54] And and I think it's important also to understand that these parts aren't static.

[00:03:59] That that it's not like a set it and forget it kind of thing it it's something that you know you need to to manage these things and develop these things and understand for instance as you grow that the parts are going to change.

[00:04:16] And you're going to you know have to alternatively add new parts you're going to have to rework old moving parts. So that's sort of the general idea. Yeah and and you know I think some people have a tendency to think.

[00:04:31] You know when they come to church that there is there is no process. And then why do what's going on. Well some churches there isn't. But I want to ask you guys what are some of the specific examples of systems and processes structures.

[00:04:44] And you know in your church and in your ministry context so miles while you kick that off force.

[00:04:50] Well I appreciate what Ted said about kind of the what and the how of these things that these processes these systems they develop the what and how and when you were saying that it reminded me.

[00:04:59] You guys probably saw this book a number of years ago came out by Simon cynic about start with why.

[00:05:04] And a lot of the times when we're approaching what we're doing at our church we're really kind of trying to get at that point of what is the reason that we're doing this why are we doing this whole thing.

[00:05:14] And I mean obviously we all know the great commission you know go make disciples and if if we're wanting to get people to a goal of being a faithful obedient follower of Christ the disciple.

[00:05:24] We have to have some sort of way to get them there that's the one and how but we really got to go back to the theological basis for why are we doing this well Jesus told us to do it.

[00:05:32] And you know I grew up going to church I think you know probably I don't think Daniel Daniel Pimple Lord when he was older you know in college they kicked him out of churches.

[00:05:43] So but for you guys I don't know if you grew up in church, but I grew up in church and and you know I've been around a lot of churches for a long time and seeing that you know a lot of times we don't even define that we're wanting to make disciples here and you know we don't have a clear.

[00:05:55] You know aim at that purpose that the Lord has given to us and so you really need to step back I think from there and just say you know why are we doing this.

[00:06:02] Yeah the Lord told us go make disciples and then we start to fill in some of the gaps of all right how we're going to do that what are we going to do to make that a reality.

[00:06:09] Yeah and I think that what you're saying is absolutely you know it's so right on and everybody has systems and processes in their churches. It's just a matter of is it intentional or not so an unintentional system is still a system it's just one that isn't fruitful.

[00:06:25] And so I when you think about the idea that that because the goal is to make disciples and really got us glorified by us very much fruit.

[00:06:32] So so when you when you start with that as as the the goal of it then you then you back yourself into what do we need to do for this to be fruitful and there's an old book that came out years ago about.

[00:06:45] You know kind of church processes called the trellis and the vine and I always love that idea that you use trellis thing if you're let's see planted some tomato plants on the time so you know you have to have some actually a whole bunch you guys are Italian so.

[00:07:00] And and Ted I don't think your last name is Italian but you're honorary for the death.

[00:07:05] But like the original presentation the tomato is start to grow a little bit they get heavy and if you don't have trellis thing then the fruit starts to sag it doesn't get to the sun and it won't grow to its potential so I always think of the systems and processes as the trellising to keep the fruit in its optimal place so that it can that it can grow to whatever size dog would have it grow to and so we want to make sure that like that will.

[00:07:28] We're intentional about those systems and processes so that we can be as fruit for less Jesus would have us. So Ted give us an example at your church of a system that is in place right now that would you know fit into what we're talking about.

[00:07:44] Okay, so let's start with the big picture you know the kind of the you know how you're looking at at the whole the whole inch a lot of so. So I'm going to continue to to continue to continue to to continue to. I'm going to just.

[00:08:01] No, no, we're gonna we're going to focus there. So you know you've got it's been said that like it growing the church you've got four pillars right you've got that.

[00:08:11] In terms of the things that you have to manage for a growing church so you've got your preaching and you've got your children's ministry and you have your worship.

[00:08:24] And then you have your and in children's ministry I count you know junior high school ministry and then you got just the fellowship connection and I call those the fourth pillars because you know we encourage church planners.

[00:08:38] And you know you really need to address all of those because you can have phenomenal preaching and you can have great worship and you can even have great.

[00:08:49] Relational connections where people are actually you know the the old saying people aren't looking for friendly church looking for a friend at church and so you can have all those dynamics but if you've got a train wreck children's ministry.

[00:09:01] And people aren't going to come to your church and I'm going to stay and we've seen real world examples of that happening so. And and so. A system and a structure for the children's ministry would be alright we need to be able to understand that.

[00:09:18] That people are coming with you know number one they want to make sure that their kids are safe that that they're going to be checked into a place we're going to be they're going to be safe and protected. They're going to be well taught.

[00:09:31] That there's it's not just going to be you know babysitting or child care but there's actually going to be comprehensive instruction that's taking place. And so a system that you put in place needs to address all of these issues it needs to be alright.

[00:09:48] So they they slow to 20 and let their kids tuck in roll and then what you know and so the system looks at how you know what's our signage look like do you know when they're arriving how they know where to go.

[00:10:03] What's the check in process look like and and is it you know is there is there an engagement there is there is their comprehensive safety system in place for can you know once I drop my kids off here who's watching them.

[00:10:19] What are the policies that are in place in regards to my kid going to be alone with somebody somewhere is there going to be. There's going to be accountability there is going to be team of people there what's their training to be able to care for my people.

[00:10:35] All of those things inform the system that you think through and then you you subsequently put into place. Yeah I know it at our church it starts even before that it starts in in our parking lot because we have a very limited parking.

[00:10:49] We have a whole system in structure we're just getting cars in and out and you know who parks where and if our lot gets full we're how we're directing people. Yeah let me jump on that because that's important now because what you're what you're bringing up is that.

[00:11:05] Because I was just talking about the system and structure for the children's ministry but then you have to have you you have 100 other systems and structures for other things so you've got a system is structured for your parking industry.

[00:11:14] To be able to safely get people in and on and you know transmit and these all need then to work together too. Right exactly.

[00:11:22] Yeah I think you know listening to what you're saying Ted one of the things that I found can be a real challenge we've all experienced this the longer you live in a house the less you pay attention to a lot of the things that are out of order.

[00:11:32] You know I still have some you know base boards that need to be cocked that are like five years in and I haven't done it.

[00:11:38] You don't do any of those things so you get ready to move so a lot of times when we're when we're in a church environment that we've been at for a long time we we start to overlook a whole bunch of the things that are going to be a challenge to the first time person who's come into the church.

[00:11:50] And so you know we're constantly asking people who are newer to the church.

[00:11:54] That they could give us some feedback about where are the pain points like we two values we try to have at the church for some of the processes that you are talking about is to have you know using your traffic sort of mindset we try to have easy on ramps.

[00:12:08] You know make it as easy as possible for people to get on ramp to various things whether it's children's ministry or whatever it may be.

[00:12:14] And then we're always trying to look for the areas where there's there's friction is there anything that's kind of slowing movement down in that process so easy on ramps and friction are the two big things and.

[00:12:24] I'm going to be honest I've been a part of the church the church I pastor for a very long time even before I was the senior pastor the church so most of those things I'm completely blind to. Right.

[00:12:33] And so I have to be asking people who are new to the church. You know what where are those pain points where is the friction so we can try to address it because I'm totally blind to it.

[00:12:42] Yeah, I think well let me say say this one is I would say this we could do a whole other podcast on this is.

[00:12:49] Is when you've been in a church a while not only do you tend to not see things but I think as visionaries and pastors were.

[00:12:58] Trying to train ourselves to look for those things but then it's trying to get the people who have been there forever who don't see the things and they don't even see the problem and to try to get them to see why we need to.

[00:13:11] And so we need to change this and make this bit better that I think that can be a really really big challenge where we're going to say Daniel. Well yeah I think you know to kind of piggyback off of what you guys are saying.

[00:13:23] A system and a process that you can use is like we always tell our staff that we don't just want to work in the ministry we need to work on the ministry.

[00:13:32] Right, and so one of the things that we do across roads is by working on the ministry we do something called a 4 by 3 which is 4 initiatives. So we do we do them three sets of them every year and it's all about what are we doing.

[00:13:48] What do we need to improve and how are we going to improve it because what we found is like miles was saying you know that when you live when you first get there you notice all the things that you're like oh that's kind of they need to fix that or I think doesn't work right or that doesn't look good or whatever it is.

[00:14:06] And then once you're habituate to it it's just what it always looks like. Right, you actually have to force yourself to look at it fresh through a fresh set of eyes all the time.

[00:14:15] Right, and so we actually have instituted that process of the 4 by 3 so like let's say like so for kids ministries is we've talked about kids ministry or you're talking about you know the parking lot so that's our safety ministry.

[00:14:26] Each every three months they have four initiatives that they're working on that are going to upgrade whatever it is that we're doing in whatever area it needs to be in.

[00:14:35] And so like for kids ministry don't come and say listen, we want to make sure that we are that every single child has a Bible right.

[00:14:45] What I just made that up off the top of my head and then they'll just say okay in order to make sure that every single child that crossers has a Bible this is what we're going to do and we're going to work on it for the next three months.

[00:14:58] So that becomes something that happens and then you end up managing it making sure the kids always have Bibles but in every area we have to kind of force ourselves because you know we realize that attrition is normal.

[00:15:10] We get, you know, we get focused on other things and things start to slide and because we're so used to seeing it we don't realize how far it can slide. Right, which will be, which will be a have a negative impact on the work we're trying to do.

[00:15:23] What is it Craig Groschallus says that culture is a combination of what you create and what you will allow.

[00:15:28] And we, we wind up allowing a lot of things and they just become furniture to us like you were saying miles that, you know it takes you've now listed your house and your realtor comes in and says,

[00:15:40] What's all that stuff on your counter and you're like what style you didn't even see it and you have to become aware of those things. I got it just for clarification, Daniel, are you saying that every ministry takes four initiatives over three months.

[00:15:54] Yeah, and and and every single year. So it's like we end up doing so what we do it here's again, it's a system in a process is we leverage Easter what we call back to church Sunday which is the Sunday after Labor Day.

[00:16:08] So we're coming into the fall and then Christmas as they're kind of like catalyst times. So we say before Easter, everyone has there four by three that they're working on so from Christmas to Easter these are the initiatives that every and this isn't just like ministry.

[00:16:23] I mean, like our operational staff and we have a staff of about 45 will time equivalent employees, you know, in different departments.

[00:16:31] So in every area of the church there are upgrades that are being made, there are things that need to get worked on so there's Easter is the first deadline.

[00:16:39] Then we have what we call back to church Sunday, which is the Sunday after Labor Day in the Northwest, the sun comes out only in the summer.

[00:16:45] So everyone vanishes and gets vitamin D and then once when school gets back and everybody's like okay, we need to get back to going to church, we need to get and so we use that as a catalyst Sunday.

[00:16:54] So from Easter to back to church Sunday and then once from back to church Sunday the Sunday after Labor Day to Christmas.

[00:17:00] So these those are like the arbitrary deadlines that they have to get these initiatives and after declare what the initiatives are, they have to agree upon them with their supervisors.

[00:17:09] And then they have to initiate them and drive them to get them to the point where we want to get to it's everything from how do we cultivate more prayer in our ministries, how do we I get this outreach off of the ground.

[00:17:20] How do we make sure that whatever we need to work on whatever the friction points the pressure points are.

[00:17:25] So and what it also does by God's grace is we never get into the place where people are like oh, nothing's allowed to change here because things are always changing.

[00:17:35] Right. Things are always getting upright so so you so you never have the I just love that that couch has been there since I got baptized in the spirit in the 70s. It's like that couch got thrown out a long time ago.

[00:17:47] Yeah, a new couch for the Holy Spirit to work your life on so it's right here.

[00:17:51] Well that your articulation of what you have going in by the way I've made a personal note on that because I think that solid gold which you just shared the four initiatives over three months. I think that.

[00:18:06] What would you say in the to the person who hears that and their response might be and that's too corporate that's that's too slick.

[00:18:16] They they you know you should be more spirit led than that that's unspear actual that you're so rigidly structured in that way because you know there are those those that are going to think that way so.

[00:18:27] I'll start with you Daniel, but I want to move to you two miles. I'd love to hear you and Rob your input as well to those person to say man that's just that's too corporate that's too slick what you're talking about.

[00:18:39] Yeah, so I would say a couple things one I would say that anytime something is larger than one person it becomes it adds complexity.

[00:18:47] So size adds complexity right and so like if you're running a you know like an owner operate like if you're a painter and you just go paint rooms.

[00:18:56] Then you don't need any processes your own process right as you add a second painter or a bookkeeper you have processes yeah so so. Side people don't like structure because they actually don't like accountability.

[00:19:10] Right and so so and so when it's why I would say that first off because it's larger than just one person it needs structure.

[00:19:19] And but I would also say if you read your Bible the Holy Spirit functions in structure all the time I mean thank god Adam was made after God created the earth.

[00:19:31] And vegetables right it's like so like there's an order to it when you look at at the giving of the law.

[00:19:38] It's like who when you're going to break down the tabernacle there's a structure who gets to do what job when they break camp who goes first right by the time you get into the new testament after the day of pentacost.

[00:19:49] They have to initiate decans because there's too much work and they need a division of labor so we have a biblical example of structure being placed in around the work of God so that God can do the work that he wants to do now if.

[00:20:05] I think it becomes corporate if it's kind of like where Jesus said you know the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath sometimes our structures can be constricting and and it's not no these structures exist so that we can.

[00:20:19] I'm not efficient for Phil God's purposes so first I would argue from a biblical standpoint that structure is part of God's plan.

[00:20:27] Second I would say because of our size you know we either have an unintentional structure or we rather have an intentional efficient one that gets the job done so that we can be focused on other things and then the third thing that I would probably argue would be we have this tendency to think that the spirit only works spontaneously.

[00:20:47] It is not a biblical view of the way the spirit works there are times when the spirit will work incredibly spontaneously but if you even think about the prophetic words that God gave to the prophets. Very rarely did they get the word and speak them out.

[00:21:01] They would get the word and have to travel to go deliver it and no doubt they'd be praying through the word what God wants to do and so I'm a very spontaneous person.

[00:21:10] And I actually think that the structure around the things that we do regularly actually creates more margin so we can be spontaneous. And so in all those ways I would say actually having structure is is very spirit filled spirit led and God works in these ways. Awesome.

[00:21:28] Yeah, I love what you were saying about people don't like the structure because they don't like accountability I think that's really really key and I mean we've all observed that.

[00:21:36] And in so many different ways and you know I've had the privilege of working with a number of different ministries and kind of not just churches but other institutions organizations to help them kind of remap what they're doing.

[00:21:46] And even those that really like a casual culture as they'll say or you know they don't want to become too corporate it's like you look around and it's like every church has systems and processes and things that they're doing but some of those things are just hat hazard and reactive.

[00:21:59] Instead of being proactive and you know clear and just like Daniel was saying that a lot of these things they they make it more streamlined I back over the summer we've got a pool in our backyard and our pool pump went out and in San Diego when the pool pump goes out you've got like four days and the summer before your pool is like a giant green pit.

[00:22:16] Right. And so pool guy comes over to look at it and he says you know we don't obviously we have this supply chain issues right now because when we can't get you a whole new pump we can get you just a new motor is okay.

[00:22:26] And then he looks at all the pipes on my filter and he goes who piped this thing I said I don't know I moved in it was like this and he goes.

[00:22:32] It's got all these 90 degree angles he said every 90 degree angle is creating 20 feet of resistance in your system I had no idea but it's like all of a sudden you realize that you know somebody haphazardly put this together because they thought they were saving money and what they really did is they made the thing not run very efficiently.

[00:22:50] But if you've got someone to know what they're doing and they cut out all that stuff all the sudden you go oh wow things are working way way better we're getting more done than we ever did before so I think we need to think strategically in that way and then going back to what we all see observationally I mean.

[00:23:04] God is into systems and processes I mean within our bodies we've got a circulatory system and respiratory system we had all these systems and throughout the cosmos we have all these systems and they all are finely tuned and perfectly made.

[00:23:16] And God put some fourth out into this stuff and I think that he's given us brains to reasonably and rationally think through like how are we doing this stuff and are we doing it well and measuring what what is hindering us from moving forward faster.

[00:23:28] I think that's great and I love the idea I think the system and structure creates you know a playing field if you would and then.

[00:23:36] You know within that there is the room like you said for the spontaneity and I think good example of that is you know all of us spend a good part of our week where we are preparing we're studying there's a.

[00:23:48] a discipline and a system and a structure to the way that we approach the word but then in the moment that we're giving the message there's that.

[00:23:57] spontaneity of the Holy Spirit but it's within the framework of and I think all of us have seen preaching where you know it's just spontaneity there's no system no structure and it's all over the place you know and it's hard to follow and it just you know.

[00:24:13] So I think that you know that is a good way that you put that you know there's there is spontaneity and room for that it'd be if the if the Lord at the Holy Spirit saying okay, I know this is your system and structure but.

[00:24:27] Right now I want you to do this there's room for that being led in that way but the system and structure is becomes the playing field upon which the Holy Spirit has the opportunity to work.

[00:24:38] Well I think that it's important for us to recognize that among the gifts of the spirit are gifts of administration yeah and that there are people are gifted in that area I mean you know.

[00:24:47] I think of Moses as like a quintessential senior pastor easily distracted by burning bushes and fighting Hebrews but then you've got like.

[00:24:54] You've got a jethro who has a gift of administration who comes in and X to 18 and says this needs to be organized or when they're building the tabernacle you X to 31 talks about a holy ab and Bayesian who are gifted by God to know how to make this a reality I mean.

[00:25:08] Moses has a vision he has no idea how to make that a reality but you've got people who do and so several years ago we had a worship leader he's since gone to be with the Lord he died of pancreatic cancer but.

[00:25:19] He was a sea level executive at a major defense contractor and he came in and I just started asking him questions and this guy started pointing out.

[00:25:27] The person who doesn'ts away as we could just more efficiently do work around the church and I was like man this guy is worth his weight and gold in every way just because he sees things that I don't and he's got ideas about how to do stuff that I would never come to.

[00:26:10] I think that's a good thing to take the heart that you have these guys in your churches and and you can be praying for the Lord to direct you to these guys and humble yourself to be able to say.

[00:26:21] And sometimes it's it's the this is always work this way but but it frequently does work as way somebody will come to you and they'll point something out.

[00:26:32] The initial reaction to dismiss them is being critical rather saying okay is there something you would do differently right you know one of the things that I would even call this a system and structure within our ministry is something that I do with everybody on our staff as I will have them.

[00:26:49] Make a list of what they see are their strengths and what they see are their weaknesses and then I'll ask them in the areas where you see that you're you're there's a strength.

[00:27:05] I can not be a detriment to you to maybe where you're not going to rely upon the Holy Spirit and then I ask them in the area where you're where you're weak.

[00:27:15] I sit on here pray as in here can you improve upon but then I say but what's the area that your weak at that you just know I'm never going to be good at that. Because one of the things that we have a tendency to,

[00:27:28] it's hard for us to do sometimes is to be honest with ourselves. And be honest that hey, I can't do that. I know, I'm like, for me, I know I am never ever going to be good at art. I can't even draw a good stick figure. You know?

[00:27:40] It's like, I know. And the reason why I have them do this is that so they understand, OK, maybe your gift isn't organization, but organization is vital for your ministry. So you need to find somebody who's going to be able to help you in that area.

[00:27:56] And so I take them through that process so that they can come to learn and ask me, I want you to make this list. And then take it to a couple of people who really, really know you, have them look at it

[00:28:07] and see if they agree with it, you know, type of the thing. Yeah, I was going to say, ask their spouse after they're without their resources. Is this right? I always have them do that. Now what about this, Daniel?

[00:28:17] Let's talk about, you know, I think we've all experienced this. We know, you know, we've seen this. I think there always comes a point in almost every single church, where the church sort of platos. And there might be new people that are coming in

[00:28:34] but there's old people that are going and they kind of just reach this place where they just kind of plateau at this one particular spot. And I think in that moment, it can be very tempting to begin to just stagnate.

[00:28:47] And so my question is, what are some ways for a leader to evaluate if their systems and processes are contributing to stagnation? And then if it is, you know, how can they improve that? How can they get out of that place

[00:29:02] of just kind of falling into that place of just being stagnant? Yeah, it's a great question. So I would say there's a couple things. First, how do you know when you're stagnating? So like one of the things that we do at crossroads is we have a scorecard, right?

[00:29:17] And so we always say, like we listen to the numbers and we don't talk back, it's not all about the numbers. That just tells a part of the story. So like if we're committed to reaching loss people, then if we're not tracking how many people are saying

[00:29:30] yes to Jesus and how many people are being baptized, then we really aren't really passionate about reaching loss people. We just say it. And so you have to evaluate what do you have? So the only way you would know that if you're stagnating, now if you're not talking,

[00:29:43] if you're talking like numerical growth, that's like, so we're talking about, we stagnate with numerical growth. Are we talking about spiritually? How do you assess spiritual fervor? And like these are a lot of the questions I think all of us have. But like we have to figure out,

[00:29:57] like what are our scorecards for these things? Now for us counting the number of people and men's and women's and students and kids, that doesn't tell the whole story, but it does tell part of a story, right? Because if we do want to reach new people,

[00:30:11] we want to reach the loss, we want to disciple the saved, we want to deploy people. We need to know like are we actually doing that or not? So I think what happens is if you hit a point where you're like, okay, everything's kind of flat.

[00:30:22] We were growing as a church, we went from 40 to 60, went from 60 to 100. And now we've been kind of hanging out around 90 for the last year, right? So like so we're stagnating. Now that could mean a couple of different things.

[00:30:37] One it could mean and if you know technical analysis in stock investing, I saw something that I did as a hobby, they called that in technical analysis. They called consolidating a base. What that means is a stock won't go up forever.

[00:30:49] It'll go up to a certain point and then it has to get comfortable being at that point so that it can go higher. But it consolidates at a certain amount. The same thing happened if you're trying to lose weight, right? You plateau in your weight loss.

[00:31:02] Now what a lot of people do is they plateau, maybe they lost 10 pounds and then they're stuck for two weeks. Like oh, it's not working. I'll just go back to eating the way that I used to eat in the two years. Yeah, but it's like,

[00:31:14] but sometimes your body's just getting used to being it's new weight and it wants to keep losing weight. So the key is they're just to keep doing what you're doing. And so you have to look when you hit that plateau, is there anything that we're doing

[00:31:25] that could be hindering it? And so it does make sense. You do want to look at your processes because that is one of the factors. And what I think a lot of churches, they don't know why they're plateauing because they're actually not following any processes.

[00:31:40] So like they don't even know like, well, we think kids ministries plateau. Well, how many people did you have last year? Oh, we don't know how many people do you have now? We don't know. It just it feels different.

[00:31:49] Well, maybe you know, maybe you have a bad leader in there. Maybe there's something that you don't realize you've actually grew by 10%. You just don't know unless you're tracking it. But so you want to look at everything when you find yourself at play.

[00:32:03] And we do the same thing when we're growing. So it's like as we're growing like, is there anything that we're doing that other than obviously it's the work of the spirit? Because we're anything that we're doing that like, hey, we keep hearing,

[00:32:13] hey, we found crossroads because of this. And so when we find those things, we're like, oh, so that's an engine that God is using to reach people. Do we want to throw gasoline on that fire to reach more people? And so I think in either way

[00:32:27] you really want to be able to track what's going on. And then ask yourself the hard questions. And I think the reason people stagnate is because we're just not willing to ask ourselves the hard questions. Are there things that we're doing

[00:32:38] that are limiting the work that God wants to do? Or holding people back from stepping into whatever it is that God has for us? I love that answer. I love it every bit of it. Your scorecard, the tracking of your decisions and your baptisms and your attendance

[00:32:52] and your participation. And you know, there were those guys that will say, you know, I'll gosh, David, he was rebuked when he started counting the people and you know, hey, okay, that's a pride issue. That's a self, you know, how are we self sufficiently equipped kind of issue?

[00:33:11] That's not a stewardship issue where you're saying, you know, where are we being effective and how is the Lord moving and working and just having a concept of how everything works? Well, I think that what you're saying that's the key because obviously at the example of David,

[00:33:28] but as you said it was a heart problem. He was planning to trust his army, not the Lord. But then you have the book of numbers which is all list of the number people. I think that was like to tell people that,

[00:33:38] you know, the only way this shepherd knew that one sheep was missing because he knew we had a hundred. Right. You know, it's like, when there's a hundred, only 99 there, like well, there's almost a hundred. So yeah, so you have to know the state of your flux,

[00:33:51] but the key is like you said, like I would never bring the crossword scorecard out here and be like, look at what, like we are awesome. It's gonna, this is just what we're, this is cool and what we're dealing with

[00:34:03] and if we want to reach students, we're saying then we want to see students get saved. Right. Right. Then I want to track our students getting saved. So I can track that. I can say, hey, listen, at last Wednesday, five kids gave their life to the Lord

[00:34:16] and three of them got baptized a month later, you know, like you could start looking and seeing, are we doing it? If you're saying no one's gotten saved and giving all of your call every time you've gathered,

[00:34:24] no one gets saved, then if you say that you wanna reach students, you gotta look at, well, we're obviously not reaching law students because there's not no one's getting saved after a year. Right. Any thoughts on that idea of stagnation miles? Well, it's fascinating to me.

[00:34:38] I mean, you guys were talking about baseball before we got started here and I'm not a huge baseball guy, but when I do watch, I'm always blown away by the stats that they come up with. Like, they've got numbers for every possible thing,

[00:34:49] like that you could ever imagine. This guy throws this pitch in this inning at this point. You're like, where did you come up with this stuff and they got decades of this stuff going back? And you look at a lot of the stuff that we do

[00:34:58] within churches, a lot of time, we're just, we're not doing the work of actually evaluating what we're doing and we don't have a good idea about what's going on. I was invited to come do an assessment of a church a number of years ago.

[00:35:10] They were at kind of a point of stagnation and they had a really good team of staff and leaders and I had put together some questions to ask these people and, you know, I'm an outsider coming in with fresh eyes,

[00:35:20] but I asked their team to give me some feedback and I found that they just hadn't asked any questions but their entire team knew all the points of issue that needed to be addressed, just no one had ever asked

[00:35:31] like, well, how's this working and what's going on here? So just having that fresh outlook and saying, we make in that a part of your culture that we're gonna ask the question, are we doing a good job in these various areas

[00:35:42] like Daniel was talking about whether it's youth ministry, children's ministry, whatever, even in the parking lot. Are we doing a good job as you were talking about Rob, getting people into the parking lot, getting them out of the parking lot because if you have multiple services

[00:35:52] and you don't have great parking, it's gonna be a pain point and a difficult thing, but really building it into your culture of just asking those questions and to be quite honest, we've all seen this before, people who are involved in ministry,

[00:36:04] whether there's paid staff or their lay leader, they can be easily offended if you start asking questions, but if it becomes a part of the regular thing that you do, that this is how we evaluate things, then people start to realize, oh, well, this is what we do.

[00:36:17] So we're trying to work on the ministry like Daniel was saying it's just working in the ministry. And I love the fact, Daniel, that you brought up the whole idea of like, okay, our kids getting saved or how many people are engaged in this Bible study

[00:36:32] and that it's not all about numerical growth, but it's the idea of what you started off with, my unless you're talking about discipleship and that is our calling on our mandate. And so I think we have to evaluate from that standpoint of, are we really fulfilling our calling

[00:36:49] and making disciples? And how are we doing that? And so it's looking at that aspect. Because some churches, and we all know this, I mean, some churches don't grow as big or as fast as other churches do, but they can be doing an incredible work

[00:37:09] in the sense that there's people getting saved, there's people being raised up, there's people being sent out. And that type of thing is happening. And it's super, super healthy because they do their pay attention to the systems and structures. And they're never stagnating because there's constantly almost like

[00:37:28] the analogy of the Red Sea, you know, it's or the Dead Sea, you know, it's dead because it only has an intake and it doesn't have an outtake. And so, you know, that's one of the things I think we have to process is in all of our ministries

[00:37:42] is that happening where there's the intake and the outtake. And if that's happening, there isn't gonna be stagnation. That takes place. It's gonna be constantly moving and growing. We observed as we started that a system, a system is in structures.

[00:37:58] They're not set it and forget it kind of things. They're not static things that we get these in place, but then we need to consciously and intentionally be working the processes and reworking the processes. And this becomes effectively or increasingly true when our churches are growing, you know?

[00:38:23] And so let's address that for a minute that you've got systems and structures in place. You like them. We love when, you know, it's work and don't mess with it but then they have these pinch points where you start to outgrow them.

[00:38:39] So let's talking about out growing your systems and structures and your approach to that. Well, I think it's really important to recognize that when you're out growing your systems and processes, that's a good problem. Like sometimes people get really upset about that but that's a really good thing.

[00:38:55] And then recognizing that what worked when you had 150 people will not work when you have 1,500 people, it's not gonna be the same thing at all. You know, we observed something at our church, I think a lot of people have experienced this COVID

[00:39:07] turned to every system and process on its head. And so you had to reevaluate what you were doing. And so as people are starting to come back to our church, what we're seeing every single week right now

[00:39:16] and I assume, you know, a lot of other people are seeing this as well is that you have people more than normal who are for lack of a better term church shopping. And I mean, I don't think we like that idea

[00:39:27] but we have a lot more people who are coming and trying out our church every single week than we normally would. And you know, for a very long time we had kind of a newcomers gathering. So about every five weeks we would have a newcomers gathering

[00:39:40] after church on a Sunday we'd invite people who had been coming to the church last five weeks to come to that. That worked great when we had kind of this normal routine of what we thought was normal of new people coming to the church.

[00:39:51] But when we've got four or five new families coming in the door every single week just kind of checking out the church and they're probably only gonna be there one or two weeks, that wasn't gonna work anymore.

[00:40:00] So what we did is we moved it to a five minute meeting after the service. We just tell people, hey, right after the service right outside that door, we have a five minute meeting, you can meet the pastors will introduce you to the church.

[00:40:10] And that's just adjusting for new realities. So it's kind of saying, that old thing didn't work very well for this new situation. Work great 24 months ago. Doesn't work the same anymore. Yeah, it's like that it's the same. What got you here won't get you there. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:40:25] That's good. That's good. Now what are the processes we worked on was our new believers process? You know and because you know for a long time, you know we'd have new believers at the services and then we got really intentional about giving all their calls every gathering.

[00:40:40] You know. And so sure enough, then all of a sudden you start having you know 30, 40 people coming forward. And then very quickly you were like, oh and we're like when this started happy and what's our process for new believers?

[00:40:53] Because if we're going to catch them, we might as well fillet them right now. Right. Now we're going to process it. Yeah, it's like the group is kind of catching throwback, you know and so it's like, so very quickly like,

[00:41:03] oh we have a new believers small group that meets on Mondays. I'm like great how many people go to that? Three. Oh, that's not good. And so very quickly we're like, okay we need to read, we need to read about this process.

[00:41:15] And so we went through the whole thing or now as I guess people come forward, we bring them out into our prayer room. We get a very basic information from them and then starting that night they get like a drip each day

[00:41:26] they get a video in their inbox. Hey you just gave your life to Jesus this morning across our ears. So excited for you. Listen, this will not you know it. And so we realize that rather than waiting for them

[00:41:35] to filter back two crossroads for a new believers meeting the next week, we wanted to get them edifying encouraging content in their inbox because now we have you know, we had email and all this stuff. Boom we started getting them that.

[00:41:48] And then three days later whoever received them in the prayer room was gonna call them on the phone just to say hey, this is Brian. I met you on Sunday at crossroads. I just want to see how you're doing and how I can pray for you.

[00:41:58] And then before you know it now we're having touch points for people and they're like hey listen are you gonna come to you? Are you gonna be back at church on Sunday? Yeah hey listen, I'll be waiting for you. What's servicing after I'd love to sit with you

[00:42:07] if you want to. And so trying to find those ways because we see the research on people give their lives to the Lord whether it's at a crusade, a year later only 10% of the people are functionally connected to a local church.

[00:42:20] Well what's the guy we do with that? You know and then we track how is it working? And we found that it's working. We were doing about 40 in the low 40 for sense of getting people connected back in and we're like hey that's good

[00:42:33] but we're constantly working on those processes to make sure that hey this actually gets the job done. I love that. We're gonna pause for a minute to hear from our friends at Coltavay, church planting initiative of CGM. The gospel is the hope of the world

[00:42:51] and the world needs more gospel centered churches. That's why Coltavay by CGM exists. I'm Clay Whirl, executive director of CGM and I'm here with my friend Pastor Nick Katie. We want to take a moment to let you know about the Coltavay Church Planchor Training Program.

[00:43:06] Coltavay has created the infrastructure to support the planting of 1,000 new churches in the next decades starting in 2023. We've all in the footsteps of renowned church planters in the Calvary Chapel movement, embracing and adopting their rich heritage of church planting in order to transmit our values,

[00:43:23] theology, and philosophy of ministry to this generation and for those to come. You know as church planters ourselves we understand that planting a church is not an easy task but we believe it's an essential one. That's why we've created a range of resources

[00:43:36] to help you and your team prepare for the journey ahead. Our resources are personal, practical, and pastoral. Our program is from six to 24 months and is designed to equip you to lead a gospel centered community wherever God has called you around the world.

[00:43:51] We also have a global team of mentors and coaches with thousands of hours of experience planting and pasturing churches and they're ready to support you in the training phase, the launch phase and in the post launch phase of planting a church. With our guidance and support,

[00:44:06] you can feel confident in your ability to engage the world for Christ. We're ready to answer the call of church planting together we can make a difference and bring the hope of the gospel to communities around the world. If you're ready to take the next steps

[00:44:19] and learn more about our church planting program we invite you to visit our website at coltavatechurchplanting.com. I know one of the things that I absolutely can drive our team crazy on is that I think all of us have the natural tendency to move towards comfort.

[00:44:39] And so we like it when we get our thing and it's working and we like this and my thing, I'm always asking is, how can we make it better? That's great but how can we make it better? Like you're saying, Daniels, like I'm catching your stand.

[00:44:55] We're at 40% that's way better than the three that we're coming but how can we make it better? And I love that and sometimes though, that can cause some tension because the people that you're serving with I think they're naturally, naturally gravitate toward comfort

[00:45:12] and we want to get something set up towards like, okay, I got this going in this way. But I don't know about you guys, I'm constantly finding the Lord every time I get to a place where I'm starting to feel comfortable

[00:45:23] he kind of like tips the Nest over, you know? And because the Ike always wants me to be in that place where I'm constantly just being dependent upon him. Well, and kind of come back to something that Daniel was saying and that is that what he's describing

[00:45:38] is kind of what you would call workflows and filters. And we sometimes will just go through what is our workflow for that person who is the first time person who came to the church or they put their hand up and they prayed

[00:45:51] to receive Christ, you know, what is the next step in that workflow? And are we triggering this in the right way? Who's following up on that? Who's inputting that into the computer system that actually runs all that sort of stuff?

[00:46:02] And who's checking to see on Tuesday did it? Did that first step get done and circling back? And, you know, it really is just having and they do not have to be complicated. It can be as simple as taking out a paper

[00:46:12] and writing down here's step one, here's step two. What's the algorithm that, you know, Bill who raised his hand on Sunday is going through over the next five days as we're trying to connect him with the various things in the church.

[00:46:23] So it's just kind of developing what that workflow is and then just simply going through it and one of the things that I've seen is that as things do begin to scale, they like, Daniel used the word complexity a while ago when there's more people, it's more complex.

[00:46:35] You have to work really hard to simplify so that it's easy and you don't end up with major clogs in that problem. So it's like, you really need to work down through and like does this step number five see really need to be here?

[00:46:46] Do we need this in here? And all right, let's get rid of that if it's not working. So really evaluating what is the process that you're going through is important? I'm intrigued in loving this conversation and sympathetically going back to the guy

[00:47:03] that is thinking, I don't eat it man. I'm tempted just to turn this off and go find a safe place for me because I don't even think about this and all can be very intimidating, you know? So just being able to open up

[00:47:16] and miles what you were just doing is inviting somebody into your head the way you're thinking through it. Right. So you talk about, you know, work flows and filters and really, you know, another helpful thing with that in mind is, you know, why don't you just like consider

[00:47:33] what the end result is you want and start reverse engineering from that because that helps you establish those workflows and filters to where you go, well if this is what I'm going for, okay let's just reverse engineer that. If I want them to be here,

[00:47:48] then what steps need to happen and in what order and in what timeframe does that need to happen? So that helps somebody who doesn't naturally think in this way to be getting their head around it, you know?

[00:48:01] Well, if I could throw like a quick tip on that too that, you know, I think in most churches, you're gonna have some people who have significant gifts in the area of administration and one of the ways that you can identify

[00:48:12] and this is probably gonna freak some people out. There are some people who go to your church who they are not serving and they might duck out right after the service but they are giving more money than most people, which means they have some wealth.

[00:48:27] And if you start to find out who those people are, you might find that they are a sea level executive at a company or they're running a very large business and they know how to make these things a reality.

[00:48:37] Like they have done this, they could do it in their sleep. I'm blessed because my dad worked for five decades in major construction building billion dollar jobs and I have asked him many, many times, how do you approach a billion dollar job

[00:48:51] when you're building cardinal stadium and Phoenix or you're building pet copark, which were the jobs? He did those jobs. And he has shown me, what are the steps that I approach these with? I cannot do what he does. And he hasn't administrative mind.

[00:49:03] He knows how to do those things that somebody else doesn't know how to do. Now, if I asked him to get up in front of people and speak in front of them, he would sweat himself to death. He'd be like there's no way on doing that.

[00:49:13] So he has different gifts that then I do. Right. I think one part of it and I think we're all looting to it but I just want to reiterate it that if you're listening to this and I realize like for all, the four of us talking,

[00:49:24] we're lead pastors with staffs of people who have different gifts around us and you may be looking at the church Bible that you don't have anybody who has that skill set and what I would encourage is reach out to a friend who's a pastor. And say hey listen,

[00:49:38] I was listening to this podcast they were talking about systems and processes and I just wanted to poke my eye out with my pencil because I don't wanna do that but I realize there might be something there that could help me. Maybe can you help me?

[00:49:51] Do you have someone on your team who can help me? And I'll just say like if you're that pastor, you can reach out to me at Crossroads and Vancouver, Washington. I'd love to put you with an operations pastor. Like we would love to help.

[00:50:02] We realize it's not everyone's gifting me. I just wanna preach the Bible. I wanna say I wanna disciple people. I don't wanna think about the supply chain and workflows. I don't wanna think about that stuff. But like we are a body

[00:50:15] and not one of us is the whole body. And so we need to make sure we get those other body parts around us. And again, if you wanna call Crossroads, we'd be happy to connect you with people who are good at systems, who can help you.

[00:50:25] At least get a handle. We can send you some resources to help you with that because it is. I remember before I came to Crossroads, I was a church plant there and I had to learn all these systems by doing this. Like calling people up on the phone

[00:50:37] like how do you do that? Like what do you do? And I didn't know how to do any of it. And then you know, then someone's like oh I have this guy on our staff. I mean miles, you're your ops guy.

[00:50:47] It was one of the first guys who helped me when I was church plant. Like oh hey, talk to this guy Richard, he'll help. And then he gave me all these processes that I would never have known and I definitely didn't wanna come up with on my own.

[00:50:57] And so reach out for the help and people be happy to help. That's a good word. And let's drill down on that for a minute because all four of us have pasted churches when they were small, mid-size and even large. I said you were church plantar.

[00:51:13] I was a church planner. Ted's planted churches before. And so we've all been in that place. And so, you know, when should systems and processes be centralized, decentralized? When should you come to the place of delegating? One of the things that I would just say to that

[00:51:32] that I had to learn is I think, you have to be willing as the lead die to let go. And sometimes that means something's not gonna get done the way that you would do it. But it's gonna get done. And you have to be okay with that.

[00:51:48] Especially when you're, you know, just starting out, maybe you don't have a staff. I mean, I remember, you know, I had to delegate to guys and, you know, they wanna do a approach some things different than I would.

[00:52:00] And I used to come to our church remet in a school and I would come early and I'd help with setup and all of that. But I would get so frustrated over the way things were being done. I finally got to the point where I was saying,

[00:52:13] okay, you guys do this and I'm gonna show up at this time. And usually it was after it was already all put together because it just tweaked me, you know? But I gave them ownership and they ran with it. And you know what, it actually function fine,

[00:52:29] you know, just wasn't the way I would have approached it. But it functioned well. So there has to come a point where you're willing to be able to let go and to give people, you know, when is it that you are mentioning

[00:52:41] about your dad and guys like that? Somebody was telling me once that guys that are in that place and I found the same thing about guys in the military is that a lot of them have to be asked, you know, like they're not gonna just volunteer.

[00:52:54] They're not gonna be like, you know, when the pulpit announcement goes out that they're like, oh yeah, I'll sign up for that because I think in the scope of what they're doing, you know, in their life and it is big and they got a lot on their play,

[00:53:07] they're thinking, oh, you know, probably somebody else can do that. But when you approach them and say, hey, you know, we have this need or this thing, I think you'd be great for this only to pray about this often times.

[00:53:17] I find that they respond in almost every single guy in our church that was in the military, they were that way. Like capable guys who never volunteered but as soon as I asked him it was like, chain a command, you know, that was like,

[00:53:32] it's in their makeup, it's in their psyche. And so sometimes we have to be willing and I do that all the time where I just am looking for people that I see that potential that I'll come up and I'll just say, hey, I got something

[00:53:43] I want you to pray about. And that becomes the starting point for them to be able to get involved in. I think we have to remember that, you know, if we think about what we're doing oftentimes like, hey, we need help in kids ministry.

[00:53:55] And so, and a guy who's senior vice president of Fortune 50 companies like, yeah, I barely made it through my own kids band. That'll make sense. Okay, we need help on the worship team. And they're like, yeah, I can't play an instrument. You know?

[00:54:08] But there is that gift of administration. And so, you know, I remember when I was a church fund I'm like, listen, you know, we need some help with setting up the administration and processes of crossroads. Or at the time it was a cowboy North Bay in No Valley.

[00:54:24] You know, and it was amazing because yet a couple people who were like, they were operational people working in corporate America. And they're like, oh, I would love to do that. You know, and it's like they don't even think about it.

[00:54:34] I'm just sitting back and just being like, oh, that was the best announcement I ever made. Like, so often time, you know, not we don't give the easy on ramp. That was the word that Miles used earlier. We don't give the easy on ramp for people

[00:54:47] with administrative gift things because by and large it is in a smaller church. It's a volunteer position or in a larger church it's a staff position. But we actually want that investment of the wisdom that God has given people given their skill set

[00:55:02] and the life circumstance that God has given them. But I think some guys can also be afraid to give that to somebody because they want to... Well, on that point, you know, it's, you know, one of the things that's a well-known thing, whether it's

[00:55:19] leadership network has seen it exponential all these different groups that the churches that are planted and they're unable to cross that 100 barrier. Nine times out of 10, it is the senior leader who's the clogged that is unable to let some of those things go.

[00:55:34] And, you know, what they find when they do start to let things go is that now all of a sudden they're freed up to do the things they really enjoy doing. They got a whole bunch of a whole deck of things

[00:55:42] that they do that they have to do and are actually like the last thing they put on the list to do because they don't want to do it and there are some people in their church that would probably gladly take those things.

[00:55:51] As you said, if the person, if they went and asked them and, you know, I'm thinking of three guys right now that come to our early service so that there's early risers which I am not. But these are the guys who they're never like Daniel said

[00:56:04] get a sign up to do children's ministry. One of them was the city manager of a very large southern California city for a long time and he's just not that kind of guy. But he's the guy who I will call if we need to go talk

[00:56:15] to our city manager and say, how do I talk to this guy? What do I need to do to navigate the issues with city government? And he knows every in and out. And then, you know, I'm thinking of another guy who goes to our first service

[00:56:25] who is the chief executive of a media production company. And he's also never in a million years, is he going to go help with the third traders? But if I have a question about how to run systems and processes this guy, he knows what's going on.

[00:56:38] He's at the guy that I got to turn to. So it's really getting to know the people that are part of your church and you got to explain to them the people. And to your point, Rob, there are guys that are afraid to let go of the control.

[00:56:50] They're afraid to let somebody in like that because oh gosh, what are they going to do? How can they trust them? And to that I would say that, you know, as by definition, systems are a network of processes. There's a number of processes.

[00:57:05] There's a number of moving parts. Given one, you know, as your faithful little, you'd be faith in much, give somebody a small process to work on and then you go, oh, wow, they like how they're okay. Now that you, you helped us with our tithe counting process,

[00:57:19] would you, would you consider doing this or whatever it is? You know, and just giving broadening their scope of opportunity. And when we don't let go, we're handcuffing the body of Christ. And that's the exact opposite of what we're supposed to be doing.

[00:57:34] You know, we're supposed to be raising up people for the work of the ministry and the work of the ministry is very, very broad. It goes way beyond children's ministry or worship team or, you know, that type of thing.

[00:57:44] Well, and when you ask the question about centralized versus decentralized, you know, I think you should decentralize as much as you possibly can. You centralize the things that can only be done within the office, you know, those sort of things. But when you're trying to decentralize,

[00:57:56] you can only decentralize if you're willing to give responsibility with authority. Right. You have to give the person the adequate authority to do whatever they're asking them to do. That's good. And there's no doubt that I think there's a difference between dumping and delegating. Yeah.

[00:58:10] So like when you're giving someone authority, you still maintain oversight over them. And so you can give things away, but you don't have to, you can just make sure that it looks and you feel comfortable with what's going on.

[00:58:22] I think when you really think about kind of processes that are centralized versus decentralized, I like to say there are centralized processes create the guard rails so that where the rubber beats throw it like, let me give an example.

[00:58:34] Like so we'll set like a budget for a mission trip, right? So but within the budget for the mission trip, when there's boots on the ground and there are things happening,

[00:58:43] we need the people to do the work of the ministry and things that you didn't plan on are going to happen. Right? And so like, well say hey, this is the budget. And if you're going to go over the budget,

[00:58:53] we just let us know what's going on and how we can help budget better for the future. But so we want them to be able to get the job done in a way that feels good to them.

[00:59:03] But we also want to give them the guard rail so that like, you don't like, you know, bankrupt the church because you ended up in an orphanage and there were 500 kids and you just could not not buy all of them everything, you know.

[00:59:16] And so there are those, you want those centralized processes to be the guard rails to keep everyone safe but then there is decentralized freedom within it, not in every area but in a lot of areas so that people feel it because they are empowered

[00:59:31] and they can do the things that got us called them too. Let's let's turn and talk about this idea of what got you here won't get you there. And you know, sometimes as your church is growing and your systems and structures are growing,

[00:59:46] sometimes you outgrow the capabilities of some of your team members. And that can be really difficult. And sometimes they become the lid of your effectiveness to go beyond and so on. And maybe that can be you in some ways, you know.

[01:00:05] And so what advice would you give to those who find themselves, they need more robust systems and processes? And there beyond the current leaders capabilities beyond some of your team members capabilities. That's a hard thing to face and so how do we deal with that?

[01:00:27] Well I think one of the reasons why it's so hard and it's hard in a church setting as opposed to like a business setting is that, you know, if you have to let somebody go,

[01:00:39] let's say because they're just not the right person anymore, that position has outgrown them. You know, that person's connected to 30 or 40 other people, you know, in your church and if they get just grown older, feel like they weren't, you know, back in Taza major major problem.

[01:00:58] And so I think that's something that we face that a lot of people, you know, in that outside of the church realm because don't face because the church is more of like a family. There's that connectedness between people, especially if the church isn't, you know, super, super big.

[01:01:14] What I've tried to do in navigating this is trying to find, you know, one, it's great if you can get the person to admit and see the problem. So that's where, that's where I try to start.

[01:01:26] Through a set of conversation and questions to get them to see, okay, I'm not the right person for this anymore. This is outgrown me. And so I'll start with, what can we do to help?

[01:01:40] You know, what can we add to this to make it so it is going to work? And, or looking for something else that is a next step for them, a role that they can move into. And, but it's a, I would say it's

[01:01:57] the type of thing that you need to approach with a lot of prayer and a lot of patients and be willing to have those kind of conversations. And so far today, I've actually had some really good

[01:02:09] success in approaching some people who fit that description, who have moved into other, you know, areas and then the area that they were in, we got the right person in there where it was able to

[01:02:23] thrive. But it's a challenge for sure. I think you want to be able to find out is it? Can they, they can't do it or they won't do it? So, so they, so they won't, you know, they can't do it because

[01:02:35] it, their skills that are lacking in the new reality, we can train skills won't do it as a heart problem. It's good. Right? Where is like they really liked it the way that it used to be.

[01:02:48] And so I think, you know, and again, like we can train, we can train skills and God can change hearts, you know, and so I think that's a big piece of it, especially as things are evolving,

[01:02:59] is it a canter won't? And if it's a won't, you guys, listen, given the new reality, this is actually what it needs. And so, you know, what do we need to do to help you make the turn in your heart

[01:03:09] from what it, what it was to what it needs to be going forward? I think the other thing in Rob you said and it was, and I think it's very important, which is that we're managing to use kind of the

[01:03:18] psychological framework. We're, we're managing dual relationships. So like we were a church where a family were brothers and sisters in Christ. But then within the context of the local church, then it's also a position of employment, you know, it is a ministry leadership, even if it's not

[01:03:37] a paid position. And because of that, there are expectations and needs that are there, you know, and so, and I think the key is to be able to, at both acknowledge the dual relationship,

[01:03:48] we're brothers and sisters in Christ. But we're also as ministry leaders, we have, you know, there are different rules and responsibilities that we need to get at. And I think that that's

[01:03:59] also, I think a lot of times we make that mistake and Rob, you did it to such a great job of explaining that, that the, that we're family. But in this role on staff, this is what is needed,

[01:04:12] which is different from what we hired you for, but in this new season, this is what we need. And, and can this be something that we, that we work through? And so I think just acknowledging

[01:04:21] the dual relationship and making sure that somebody doesn't think that their employment is kind of continue like that if you're not employed or they're not leading men's ministry, that they're no longer your brother in Christ, your sister in Christ. If it was women's ministry or whatever,

[01:04:35] I think that's an important piece of it just from a relational standpoint. So, I mean, you touched on this, Rob. This is like the most touchy subject within any sort of organization, especially when you're working with people who feel like family and so many different

[01:04:50] ways. So we try to be as careful as possible of this, but we, we have a rule within our leadership team. It's not written down, but it's like our team knows. If someone who's in leadership offers you

[01:05:01] we take the keys and we pass for the people. So we don't try to argue them back into being in that ministry, so they come to an area where they realize that they're not doing a very good job.

[01:05:11] As soon as they offer themselves up, it's like, I don't think them, you know, best for this job. We don't try to talk them into it. Like, oh no, we can make it better. We just, we take the

[01:05:18] keys, we pass for them. We try to move them into a better place. It's different when you're working with staff. I mean, be right before COVID happened, we had a guy who was running our junior high ministry,

[01:05:27] had done a great job with the junior high ministry for a long time, but we, myself and our executive pastor, we made an intentional move to move him out of that role. He was not happy with us,

[01:05:37] and we made him the overseer of all of our media. And we had no idea. He has a passion for photography and videography. We had no idea that COVID was going to happen and everything was going to go online.

[01:05:48] He instantly became, you know, one of the most important people on our staff in about 10 weeks after we had moved him, kicking and screaming out of junior high ministry. And now,

[01:05:57] if I offered him to go back to junior high ministry, he would never do it. So, you know, it's one of those things that sometimes people don't realize that you've actually thought about this and you

[01:06:05] prayed about this, and I think there may be a better role for you. So as much as possible, we try to move people laterally into a better position for them. But we have that rule. If someone offers us

[01:06:14] the keys, we take the keys and pastor the person. Yeah, that's so good. So good. Recognizing that, you know, people, okay, hey, they belong on the bus. But their seats are going to change

[01:06:25] on the bus and having that conversation about where that's going to be, the discernment of the pastor and that process to be able to prayerfully know where you're taking the organization, where the Lord wants you to be taken, the organization in the role that all the shepherds

[01:06:39] and on the staff are going to be taken. And every one of us that have had to, and I'm thinking all four of us have had to let somebody go who's a staff person. I've never had a person stay at

[01:06:49] the church after that point. Like they're not going to stay at the church, they're going to consider that I'm the devil for the rest of eternity. And it's just one of the hard parts.

[01:06:58] Actually, we got blessed you, Rob, you've got to meet me on the bus. But here's how I'm the reason that you have some people at your church. You know, you know, I actually did too, but what I realized

[01:07:07] through that is that these people were incredibly mature in the Lord and I literally mud the way I handled it had nothing to do with it. I don't think and they were just so that mature. Well,

[01:07:18] one thing that I think I found is that nine times out of ten, that person who is maybe floundering in a role deep down they know it and they're frustrated. They're struggling,

[01:07:31] you know, in their heart already. And so that's why I'm saying I think if we can approach them and and pastor them, you know, and come across to just like, how are you doing? You know,

[01:07:43] and what's happening? And what's going on, you know, you're heart, what do you see? You know, yourself. Where you see your at right now in the ministry and, you know, the issues

[01:07:53] and the problems and you know, they know and they don't know how to fix it. And so it becomes a thing where like okay, do we need to hire somebody else to come alongside you and help you or,

[01:08:05] you know, do we need some training? Like your thing, the skills are the hard thing and sometimes, you know, it can just come to the point with some people. I mean, I think we all experience this

[01:08:15] that it can even be an age thing. You know, they just reach an age where they're like, I don't have the energy I used to have, you know? And but I think a lot of times they know it,

[01:08:25] you know, and so if we can move them laterally or help them get to the point to see that for the betterment of the ministry here it's time. It's time for somebody else. It's time for them to hand the

[01:08:38] keys over, you know, somebody else and I think that if that can be a good thing. I think it's also important. I mean, because we're having this conversation and I'm sure I know people who are listening, it's in the end whether we're talking systems or processes, staff,

[01:08:55] it's really a question of stewardship. Like it's God's Church and we're responsible to steward it, you know? And at this point like I'm sure there are people who are listening right now who they have

[01:09:04] staff members who are not doing anything. They're dragging everybody down and the pastor just much, Jesus, so much that they won't talk to that staff member at all. And at this point I think

[01:09:15] I would want to just say that you're just being a lousy steward in a bad pastor if you do that. You know? And you know, as Rob's talk about, hey, like we want to pastor people,

[01:09:23] my old son, we want to pastor people. You know, that inability to have a hard conversation with a staff member. Also, you talk about things that call stagnation within a church. When you have

[01:09:37] people who've been there for a while who are beloved but are really not doing a good job, they're not doing their job, you know? And pastors who are unwilling to talk to those staff

[01:09:46] members and have those hard conversations and say hey, listen, we can't do it this way. That also I think is creating a lot of drag in the work that God wants to do in a local church.

[01:09:59] As somebody who coaches lots of pastors and talk to lots of pastors, I'm always like, well, what are you going to have that hard conversation with them about them actually doing their job? You know, how long has that been going on? It's going on for six years.

[01:10:13] And it's like man, like man, if Jesus came back yesterday, like, like, I'm just be like, Lord, I'm so sorry that I didn't love your bride enough to make sure that we operate it on that

[01:10:24] body part to make it function so that the body can be healthy. And so we want to make sure that we're not in the name of love, which isn't biblical love but in the name of love not having

[01:10:35] hard conversations to help people take those proactive steps to be vibrant in the different seasons of the life of a church. So good. Yeah, so good. All right, great content guys and just

[01:10:47] to wrap this up, let's do a quick roundtable. This could be a reiteration of a point that's been made or just a quick thought that hasn't been expressed yet but that you think would be pertinent.

[01:10:57] I'm going to go first and just simply say the Daniel you're four by three. Man, that is that's worth the price of admission right there. And then Miles, would you talking about

[01:11:09] easy on ramps and then identifying the friction or what I put him next to it, traffic jams? You know, what are the easy on ramps and what are the traffic jams? You've got, I think it's a great

[01:11:18] paradigm just to kind of approach this idea of systems and structures just as a working thing. Okay, this is the base of what the way I'm going to approach because it's easy to do.

[01:11:29] Okay, where's the easy on ramps that we've got? Where do we need more easy on ramps and so on? So, so that's me, Miles. Yeah, I'd written down a couple of things here just to throw out,

[01:11:41] you know, some of the key things that we try to do is we try new things, plan and pencil and edit as you go. You know, we kind of try to edit as we're moving along and see if we can

[01:11:53] get to where we're trying to get to a little bit better. And, you know, my dad, the construction worker he told me one time that a little bit of thought in planning will solve big problems.

[01:12:03] And, you know, when you're when you're faced with something that seems like a really big problem if you just spend some time deconstructing it thinking about it and how can we address it? You might find that you're able to do it. So good. Daniel, you're up.

[01:12:18] So one of the things I was thinking about as we were talking and it was kind of rooted out of our discussion about like when people say that systems and processes are corporate or not spiritual

[01:12:28] and just the way that conversation went. I'm just reminded of something I have to remind myself all the times that we need to reject all false dichotomies because they're false and Jesus is the truth.

[01:12:39] And so, we have a tendency to think like, oh, like if I'm a, if we're a family then we should never move someone out of a ministry leadership. Like Miles was talking about

[01:12:49] or Robert you were talking about, you know, if it's if it's the church then it should be spirit-led and never structured. You know? And those are just kind of the false dichotomies. Like you're saying

[01:13:00] it's this not that one actually it is this and it's also that. And so I was just thinking as we've been talking our whole conversation it kept popping up in my head in different ways. Let's reject all false dichotomies because their false and Jesus is the truth.

[01:13:13] That's great. That's great. That's great. Well, I really love the idea that was thrown out that size adds complexity which is true and that's something that we need to not fight against.

[01:13:26] And then when you said I thought it was as golden, people don't like structure because they don't like accountability. And I think we have to foster a culture that wants accountability, you know? In order for the system and structured work. And so if everybody's on the same page

[01:13:44] and kind of that has that DNA realizing size is going to add to complexity. So we need the system in the structure and we need accountability. And if we all have that mindset, that team can really work well together and just have that teachable type of spirit.

[01:14:01] Outstanding. Well guys, thanks so much for making the time to be here with us today. Thank you. That bless you both. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Our goal with this podcast is to help you lead well through all

[01:14:15] seasons and challenges of ministry life. So we'll see you next time on the Leadership Collective.