Church Momentum - What Is It and How Do You Manage It? | Jason Duff & Jim Gallagher

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[00:00:12] Doesn't matter how brilliantly you can rhyme three points illustrate and ununciate and all this kind of stuff. If they don't feel like their kids are loved and safe, you're going to kill momentum.

[00:00:25] And I think is a staff. You can kill momentum by overwhelming them, you know, because I think especially those of us that God graciously entrusted in leadership,

[00:00:35] I think part of the reason he does so is there's a lot of vision. There's a lot of vision, but we also have to remember that these precious people who work for us or serve in our ministries,

[00:00:46] you know, they can't just be the vehicles by which our vision gets accomplished. You know, they're there to serve them, but we're also there to let them use the gifts and callings God has given to them.

[00:01:00] And we can say, well I think we should do all of these things, all of these things increase momentum, but you got to really have a pulse on how is your staff, how are your volunteers? How are they really doing?

[00:01:11] And having those communications because when people get overwhelmed and overworked, well then it's just going to kill the momentum. Hey, today on the Leadership Collective podcast, we're talking about understanding your churches, seasons of momentum, how to build effective on ramps to capture momentum when you have it.

[00:01:33] Our guests today are Jason Duff from the Garden Fellowship in India, California, and Jim Gallagher from Calvary Chapel in Viral Beach, Florida. Welcome to the show guys. Thank you. Happy to be here. So glad to be here. Thanks for having us. Blessing to have you guys out.

[00:01:53] And as we kind of get the ball rolling here, let's a good place to start would be to define momentum. And so maybe talking about understanding the momentum in our churches, what is momentum? How would you guys describe it in your particular context, Jason,

[00:02:14] maybe you could tackle that? Yeah, well I think that as we go through life and ministry, God is always doing something new and fresh. We certainly see that in the book of Acts and that hasn't stopped.

[00:02:25] And our church's God has times where he's bringing people into our church. He's doing something new that the spirit is moving and really being able to keep that momentum as number one seeking him. What is he doing? How can we stay on the same page with him

[00:02:40] and not do anything to ruin that momentum certainly, but just kind of kind of keeping with what the Lord's doing in our church is certainly harnessing that momentum that God just naturally does in seasons of our life and ministry.

[00:02:52] Yeah. I love this definition of this, I read it said, momentum is created by a thousand little things, pushing in the same direction. And each of those little things pushes us toward the end goal of moving the church forward.

[00:03:10] And so God, I think that's, you know, I found that it'd be true. It's like it's not just one thing. It's a lot of little things that begin to create kind of that momentum. What are your thoughts on the momentum, Jim?

[00:03:22] I think that I like, you know, it's an interesting concept because I think that the driving force behind the momentum is, you know, as Jason alluded to, just the work of the spirit. What God's doing it?

[00:03:36] And we're just really trying to be in tune with where God's going and what God's doing and how do we individually participate in that? And then how do we collectively help the people that are part of the fellowship engage in that?

[00:03:56] Because as they can kind of connect with that, that which God is doing, they're going to mature and develop into who God wants them to be.

[00:04:06] Because part of who God wants us to be is connected with the giftings that God gives us and the participation and role we play in the work of the church.

[00:04:13] So I think that that idea like, okay, God's doing something. That momentum is what God's doing. How do we recognize that and then how do we help others to recognize them to be engaged in that?

[00:04:27] Yeah, both of you guys had the built you in Jason Jim had the elements of really discerning what God is doing.

[00:04:35] And I think that's so fundamental to what we're talking about here because, you know, we all know that we're familiar with the statement that what you strive to attain

[00:04:42] you're going to strive to maintain. And so, and when we're talking about momentum there are things that we need to be disciplined in regards to

[00:04:55] faithfully continuing to do those thousands of little things that you describe, but at the same time, if it's something that we've engineered then it's just going to be uphill all the way.

[00:05:08] It's something that we're going to continually have to invent, to push, to create. Whereas when we discern what the spirit is doing then there's it's a lot easier to engage in what he's already doing and Rob you've described this in a couple of our episodes as catching the way if you know just being able to discern what the way is and battling to catch it.

[00:05:29] Yeah, well one of the things I think is interesting too when we talk about this subject is, you know all of us have been a ministry a long time. I'm in the middle of my 27th year in VISTAs, lead pastor Jim how long have you been in? 25, 25, yeah.

[00:05:47] What are you 15 here? I'm 17 here. Jason what are you about? Yeah, nine will be this summer. And so when I think we've all learned about ministry is that it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

[00:06:03] And so there are these seasons where the momentum kind of ebs and flows, you know in the church.

[00:06:10] And I think you guys both of you are great guys to talk about this because of the uniqueness of your, you know, churches and what you experience with, you know, your people and just the location where you're at.

[00:06:24] And Jason why don't you just kind of start us off and describing a little bit about, you know your fellowship out there in the garden and some of the uniqueness of it and what creates kind of that ebb and flow in momentum and how you deal with that.

[00:06:39] So being able to pastor out in the Coachella Valley the valley beyond.

[00:06:45] Palm Springs out through India and Rancho Mirage and Indian Wells and all those cities out in the deserts of California is like is similar I know in Phoenix and almost the reverse up in Seattle is we have a population of people that are only there.

[00:07:02] Four five to six months out of the year what we call them snowbirds and so they show up sometime in November and though they do go back home for the holidays a lot of times.

[00:07:14] They come back in early January and they stay till just a few weeks after Easter and then they go back and so the whole population not just church people but the whole population of valley goes from a consistent.

[00:07:27] Under a thousand people that live out in the Coachella Valley to half a million during those six months of the year and so it affects churches as well where we have a third of our congregation leave.

[00:07:39] And go live and see at all or Idaho or there's a few living in Sanitas they live somewhere else where the weather is better in the summertime and then come back to the Coachella Valley wins winter time again so they want it to always be.

[00:07:55] five without a few men of t though like you know some people have to face and Florida yeah so how does that affect the way that you approach.

[00:08:06] You know looking at a year and in looking at ministry and I'm sure at times when you have a bunch of people that are leaving that does change them momentum a little bit and then and then when they come back it picks it up big time.

[00:08:21] Yeah it does it does change the momentum a little bit but I would just encourage anybody who might be listening to this in the Phoenix area.

[00:08:28] And in an area where they have snowbirds coming and leaving and again it's it's the exact opposite in the Pacific Northwest where the people are leaving in the winter time to go someplace more sunny and happy and then come back when the weather is perfect.

[00:08:43] The first thing I think is so important to say here is to not forget at least in my place the two thirds that stay. To not forget about them and I see that all over in our churches in that valley.

[00:08:56] I mean we have churches that actually close a couple weeks after Easter and they stay closed until November.

[00:09:03] We have one of the bigger churches in town years ago he agreed his board agreed that he would live in Hawaii during that time and he'd fly back occasionally and teach but it was just guest speakers at whole time.

[00:09:15] And and why I think you talked to some of them they say well we have you know 90% of our congregation is snowbirds and so there's only 10% left.

[00:09:24] But I think that starts with the mentality like I don't want to forget the two thirds of the people that live here and pour into them and so for us.

[00:09:31] I mean we've got a really young congregation even though it's a very much a retirement area because we've made it a purpose to focus on the two thirds that stay and to pour into them.

[00:09:44] And yes when the third of the snowbirds leave you know we keep the stuff the same but we we have a little more room in the services and focus on the people that stay though.

[00:09:55] God seems to fill those seats and then comes the problem so then comes the end of the year and we're back in November and now we're having a third of our church come back.

[00:10:03] What are we going to do with those precious people where they're going to sit and that's having to make you know decisions of like we did recently adding a Saturday night service.

[00:10:12] We have four services now just to have room for the people that are coming back and I think the reason we need to have room is because you know the Lord's put out my self and our leadership's heart to really take care of the two thirds that stay and not make it feel like their second class citizens.

[00:10:26] And Jason you did that proactively right you anticipated that influx and instituted this Saturday service before it actually hit yes.

[00:10:35] Absolutely yeah see and that we were fairly full in our three Sunday mornings we need to do something and so that was a long quest of what do we do. To deal with that but it has definitely been needed as that's that's coming about now.

[00:10:48] Now would you entertain the notion of removing that service when the snowbirds leave I'm making it a you know I wouldn't I wouldn't just because again what I've seen in in years past we've added a third service on Sunday morning right we've you know done these things like.

[00:11:04] By the end of the the what they call nonseason and end of the summer time God seems to fill most of those seats anyways and so.

[00:11:14] Again, I think to me to take away a service is good saying like the important people just left right and so we want to make sure we're we're efficient in that I mean you guys all know that when it church gets to be.

[00:11:25] 70 to 80 percent full people don't like to fight for parking spaces and like to fight for seats and so it's it's already full right so you know if it's a little more rooming for a few months right nobody's complaining about that.

[00:11:38] And I'll tell you what I love about that answer is that it goes to the heart of what we're talking about here because we're talking about momentum and so if you were to put that. Service on ice. It would kill momentum.

[00:11:51] Yeah, yeah, and I love the way you know you're being proactive and thinking ahead of time.

[00:11:58] You know about how to I know the momentum is going to come there's an influx of all these people so we're gearing up for it instead of you know reacting to it your preparing for which I think is really really smart.

[00:12:11] Jim do you guys also deal with the whole snowboard thing there in Florida. We do you know it's similar to what Jason is describing in the sense that the you know the state is a place where people from.

[00:12:24] The northeast predominantly will we'll make it home during the winter months. But we also we you know it's a community and so we have them you know we're not at a third rate of people who are here for just the season.

[00:12:44] The majority of our fellowship are people that are here full times we're probably at 10% which is less of a of a flux or a noticeable flux on that so. And you know there are things like to minister to that 10% that flows or things like home groups that will.

[00:13:08] They'll take place only sometimes through the year not other parts of the year, but but it's not that drastic. That we feel some of the other churches in the area I think do.

[00:13:22] But I think it's also like you described Jason because we've just kind of focused on the people that are here like we're trying to have an impact upon our community and so I think that that's the you know the footprint that we have is.

[00:13:36] It's mostly people that are here all the time love that. That's great. Yeah, I think you know I just that thought of you know that momentum and keeping momentum I just thinking about the idea of.

[00:13:49] You know initiating momentum and the you know that as Ted pointed out we're not the ones that are actually kind of creating a momentum like we're not. You know, rubbing the sticks together to try to survive.

[00:14:05] But rather you know trying to trying to determine what is it that God wants to do what is it that the Lord's trying to accomplish I think of a passage in Acts 13 where.

[00:14:18] Where the you know Paul and Barnabas the other leaders at the church here in Antioch they have.

[00:14:24] The biblical directives that are driving them you know they have the great commission you know it's like you're supposed to go and declare this gospel you're supposed to make the cycles you're supposed to equip.

[00:14:35] Saints like you have it and it drives us like it puts a weight on us and that that what we do with that way then is what they did is now collectively gathering and saying okay Lord for us.

[00:14:48] What does this look like how do we respond to the way that this commission puts upon us and they sense from the Lord that they're supposed to venture out and they make their way of course disciples in Galatians so.

[00:15:02] The the ideas that initiating momentum I think is when we sit as a excuse me. We sit as a group of leaders whatever that's not whatever that looks like you know it may be a church plant that's just starting.

[00:15:19] It may be a group of leadership within a church that are saying listen we don't want to just ride the momentum that we've had like what is it that God currently wants to do but it's the way of those directives.

[00:15:35] You know resting honest that really brings us to that place of saying okay God now for us what does it look like. And so I think that there's an initiating momentum I think is a combination of that weight that the biblical directives puts on us.

[00:15:51] And then us sitting down before the Lord is saying okay God now what does that look like for us and that can be a new that can be a burthing of something or can be an extension of something or.

[00:16:04] Carrying on something or transitioning into somebody else's hands or whatever that looks like but I just like like that kind of idea of momentum as you guys were sharing I think he how does it start how.

[00:16:15] Like thinking back to when we're we're first starting whether it's a Saturday night service or we're first starting the fellowship to begin with like when you went to Oregon rob and getting started like what what is this going to look like we know we're supposed to preach the gospel and make the cypos McQuiff.

[00:16:33] Leaders but how do I do that here like what is what is your directive word momentum was very slow when I first went to. We all know we got there eventually.

[00:16:47] Yeah, oh man that's good I love that I love that idea of you know it's based off of the directives you know that we have in scripture and the vision that we know that the Lord has has given to us.

[00:17:03] But it is hard I think sometimes to think about initiating momentum you know and how do you how do you do that I think it's beautiful when.

[00:17:14] It's the spirit obviously doing something and you're just trying to capture it and that's one aspect of you know momentum that we I think all experience but then there's also I think the. What I would call the seasonal momentum that we have to you know prepare for and.

[00:17:34] And let's just talk about that for a minute you know in the sense of. Ted in your context at reliance are there specific. Times of the year that you just know that there's going to be a momentum increase.

[00:17:48] Yeah, I mean you know it's it's not nearly to the degree that Jason experiences but what would be the times though. I think that we would experience.

[00:17:57] We know that in September in our case it's August when people start going back to school you know that the attendance patterns ramp up.

[00:18:07] You know that as you're getting close to summer attendance patterns tend to ramp down unless except for us last summer when I had open heart and I was gone and our attendance grew.

[00:18:21] I took a note that I should leave more and just be gone more for our church to go but yeah I mean you know those little seasons and. You know this will inform as it as it pertains to momentum this will inform some of our programming.

[00:18:36] You know for instance, our home fellowship schedule takes into consideration these natural labs and flows and so we'll have them schedule during a certain time we'll have a break scheduled. For for a certain time small breaks but we we take that into consideration.

[00:18:54] We will schedule some events during those anticipated increased seasons and some we won't. We we schedule our VBS during the summer and as do most people and that's typically a lower attendance.

[00:19:11] We don't have a break but because of that event we don't experience that we actually experience the contrary to that. And and this you know sometimes we will strategically schedule events when attendance is going to be lower. I'll give you two examples.

[00:19:29] We will schedule a baptism on Memorial Day Memorial Day weekend and there's a method to my madness. I got to fit them in somewhere but but. I do them then because I want the attendance to be increased on a weekend when it's otherwise decreased and it works or.

[00:19:49] Or Labor Day you know we do we schedule child dedication on Labor Day and again strategically because our attendance will typically be down but if I do that. And obviously we're doing those anyway but that's why I do it then that's interesting.

[00:20:09] You know I know at this we typically see a shift in momentum in the fall obviously.

[00:20:19] Always at the beginning of the year we see you know a shift always after Easter we always see a great you know people coming because we have a big outdoor Easter service that we do. And then what's been interesting the last few years is we have also seen.

[00:20:38] And increase in our momentum and attendance in the summer and I think it's all the people that are leaving Jason's church coming to the side. And they want to come hang out you know for sure.

[00:20:54] But it's that's been a funny thing because for years it was the opposite people are going vacations and and all of that but the last few years.

[00:21:03] And you know we've seen an increase during summer time of new people coming and I don't know if it's you know the pastors in our area that are taking the whole summer off or something.

[00:21:14] I know guys do that but yeah we've seen an increase so I guess one thing I love to hear from both Jason and Jim your the patterns that you've seen but then also just segue into.

[00:21:27] When you know so these are the season ones and we can talk a little bit later about you know how do we react when the spirit just isn't doing something fresh.

[00:21:37] But in these seasons one can I get good for guys to think this way and not not everybody thinks this way like guys.

[00:21:43] Just kind of go with the flow whatever's happening and they get surprised by a lot of things and I think like Jason illustrated we want to be preparing we want to be.

[00:21:52] You know kind of harnessing that that momentum that is coming so I'd love to hear you know the patterns that you see but then also what are some of the things that you you all do.

[00:22:04] In your churches you know with your leaders and with your teams to anticipate and get ready for that so what patterns you shared a little bit what were some of the other patterns Jason that you guys see.

[00:22:18] Just like you guys and we have this this major increase in decrease when it comes to our snowbirds leaving and coming back.

[00:22:26] But just like just like every other church in the world I mean we'll see an increase in attendance after Easter we see an increase in attendance after Mother's Day and those high attendance Sundays and people come and check it out and they like what's going on and so we see an influx of people and as far as you know preparing leaders and staff.

[00:22:45] You know we try to coordinate having our you know deacons meetings a couple weeks before those events so that they're just there they're refreshed on how to.

[00:22:54] You know greet people when they're coming in the door how to be nice like Jesus how to help people find seats how to because not everybody's nice like Jesus how to be able to.

[00:23:03] You know love and be looking for things are security team does the same thing how to had a spot people that aren't aren't looking so nice and friendly and how do we make sure it's going on and they have all these these meetings leading up to.

[00:23:15] When we know is going to be an increase in for us it's multiple like you said we have everything that that every other church as we have a school time increase we have a you know school even out decrease we have Easter we have Christmas we have.

[00:23:28] Plus this big influx of snowbirds coming in and out and so we've got multiple times a year when we know that at least attendance if not momentum attendance is definitely going to be shifting and and for me too besides the preparing for the leaders.

[00:23:45] You know pastor Rob you know this because I worked for you for years but I'm a little bit of a planner.

[00:23:51] And so much so that I would never teach this to anybody but it's just how God has designed me and so because I'm thinking two three years in advance about what I'm teaching and what's going through.

[00:24:03] It's very, very easy for me to get on the schedule where we're always starting a new book when when seasons of just expected growth are going to happen and again it happens multiple times a year for us.

[00:24:16] We're always starting a new book as those snowbirds are coming back so they don't feel like they're coming right into midway into a study we're doing it again immediately you know after Easter and then again after.

[00:24:30] After Mother's Day and because I teach very quickly through the Bible it's a little easier for me. I mean I know that you know we we are going to start the book of due to autonomy this year right after Easter and so.

[00:24:41] We'll obviously do a lot of promotion for the brand news come on out brand new study in the book of of due to autonomy and then by Mother's Day it'll be time to do the book of Joshua and so we kind of already have that on the plan the.

[00:24:52] Graphics and media departments all getting ready for that so they know the new books are starting at that exact time and same thing when when the school starts I mean we have our school starting so we have our.

[00:25:02] Our Wednesday night kids program which is you know this this big thing for parents because like everybody else we face especially because we have a younger church now we've got kids going to softballers or church to little league and.

[00:25:15] So I'm just going to start with the first thing that we can talk about is the kids are starting to get in soccer and all those kind of things and so having something that the kids want to attend.

[00:25:25] On Wednesday night kicks off with the school year and we launched at that time on purpose so that. Learning about God and and yes, people can look back and say well those are kind of carnal methods but to me like we've already established well Jesus sets the momentum.

[00:25:40] But but how do we how do we manage it and how do we help people have these on ramps onto our church and and to keep that momentum going I think is really important for us to at least prayerfully consider me not everybody's teaching through.

[00:25:53] And so it's a little bit harder for them to find out where they're you know where the on ramp might be strategically but you can break up a study of a book and start a new section of the book of acts and a new section of the book of Romans you know in that time so it feels like a brand new study is starting.

[00:26:10] So I want to I want to press into something here with you Jason. Because you and I have talked about this and I'd love to get your guys thoughts, you know on this but. You know.

[00:26:23] We've heard that saying to take the meat and spit out the bones and one of the things you know that Jason I have talked about before is things that we feel like we can learn from the attraction. You know, method and of doing ministry which kind of is.

[00:26:47] You know not in the vein of our coverage apple you know movement but I know we have felt Jason I have felt like we can learn some things from. You know that model and and fit it into you know our coverage apple.

[00:27:06] And part of the way that you think. In approach things kind of fits that way can you can you elaborate on that a little bit.

[00:27:13] Yeah, well I think absolutely we can we can look back and say well all that's carnal but what we're dealing with people and people and lately.

[00:27:21] Would rather sit home and watch TV than be at church I mean even people who love Jesus like that's just that's just who it is and and COVID didn't help us at all like we can have church in my jambis this is so much better than anything of experience so.

[00:27:34] That's the point to like people human beings need to be excited about doing something and so to me that the carnal part is not is not thinking through what can we strategically do to attract people.

[00:27:47] It's like you said earlier what are we attracting with because if we're attracting them with donut parties and and and and disco lights in the sanctuary well that's not really what we want to keep doing on but if we're attracting them by by.

[00:28:01] Packaging the word of God in a way that makes it as exciting to them as it should already be to us as the Bible teachers will then we can explain to them like this is something you should be coming to and again.

[00:28:13] I mean I just watched Pastor Chuck do this when when I was a kid attending his church in the sense that Sunday morning was always connected to Sunday night and and he would be you know.

[00:28:24] Encouraging like we're gonna go for the full text on our on our Sunday evening service and it connected the two and and though again there's there's nothing you got to be the pastor who got calling you to be and.

[00:28:35] Teach your congregation the way God is called you to teach but for me. It's always been important to connect the two to connect our weekend services with our Wednesday night service because I I realize in our world we live today.

[00:28:46] There has got to be a reason people are choosing to come to church midweek then then stay in home and doing this or just caring about the kids sports. And to me if I can make it as to use a worldly term as a traction is possible.

[00:29:00] In previewing it talking about it throwing out things that I'd love to cover this right now, but we'll have to really do that on Wednesday night we get to it.

[00:29:08] You know what we've seen as well is also you know taking care of the kids making sure there's something for the kids. You know on that Wednesday night for high schoolers junior high and for our elementary school kids.

[00:29:19] It's why I mean we got hundreds of kids coming on Wednesday night and a thousand people showing up for Wednesday night service because I think there's just some thinking that goes into how do we make this.

[00:29:29] But not a traction to me and not a traction to carnal stuff that we make it a traction to making Jesus a traction to people making the word of God a traction to people because he already is but sometimes in humans we have a hard time seeing it.

[00:29:43] Yeah and we do that I mean you think about you know if you had I'll use as an example you have a men's event that's scheduled.

[00:29:51] And now if you're strategic about it you think okay we're going to have an event where you have a group of guys there.

[00:29:58] There's we know that the spirit's going to be moving and that there's guys guys are going to be motivated to you know while this is good.

[00:30:07] It's kind of like when you do something with your wife you're like man why don't we do this more often and you're the first one to complain about it before you do it you know.

[00:30:13] But yeah men's a men's ministry event and then what you do if you're thinking strategically is at that event you give them an opportunity to sign up for a new study that you're starting or whatever it's exactly what you're talking about.

[00:30:27] And it occurs to me that there's a there's a term in sales it's called friction and if you're dealing with people that are let's say they're trafficking your website and you want them to purchase something on your website.

[00:30:39] You have to remove as much friction as possible so like if there's three clicks or three steps that somebody has to go through to purchase your product you want to reduce that to one step because you're minimizing the friction and so it's kind of the same thing in terms of programming.

[00:30:56] You're saying I want to make this programming as as appealing is possible for where people are but I also want to minimize the friction to to get them to the next thing or whatever it is.

[00:31:07] I thought for sure you were gonna say to at that minced thing you're going to have food. Yeah, because right now. That was a professional. Exactly. Yeah, stay in the study.

[00:31:21] We're having that next week and I've often said this that sometimes in order to minister to a person's real need you have to touch their felt need. Yeah, and I think that's part of the attraction all aspect of it.

[00:31:34] And I approach that a lot of times I try to most of the year like you do Jason where I'm always starting something new in those momentum's or I'm doing like this Easter I'm doing a new four week series right after Easter and just a big part of it is to appeal to you know the ideas going to be, you know now that we've celebrated Jesus is risen from the dead.

[00:31:59] What does it mean and look like to walk in that resurrection power? That's kind of the focus of that series. What about for you guys there in Viro? Well, I see one thing on when we were just talking about thinking I think it's we all agree that.

[00:32:14] Carnal methods are not the way to to reach people to draw people to help people grow. I think it's also important that we recognize that just because something is it just because somebody is using a method that has been used elsewhere doesn't make it a kernel method.

[00:32:36] And you know there's like in recent years in the business world that it's kind of been an embracing of servant leadership instead of that top down right dictator model leadership well and so you see it and you see it in some of these very effective modern companies Google perhaps and how.

[00:33:06] Community matters and servant leadership matters and setting a pattern matters and in some ways you might say hey I think they've landed on something that maybe the church has forgotten there's not a carnal method it's it's the reality of the way God's framed us and so I think it's important just anybody listening that just because.

[00:33:29] A secular company or a secular model uses something doesn't mean that that that the church can't use that we just want to be sure that we don't throw the word carnal around too loosely. Right.

[00:33:44] You know, I think what Jason said was very important that you know we're not we're not trying to attract them with something other than what it is that the church has to offer to to the community.

[00:33:58] We have what we have is the word of God that's going to provide entrance into the kingdom of God.

[00:34:03] Like that's what we're at that's what we offer offering you community with God's people we're often you connection with the spirit of God we're offering you instruction from the word of God right that's what we're offering now if we.

[00:34:16] If if the women of the church organize some super beautiful festive gathering where they get together and they've got flowers and themes and all the things that go with it are we are all those things carnal methods or they just things that.

[00:34:33] I think we're going to engage the ladies they know they like it and and I'm not saying that men shouldn't have any part of something like that, but I'm just saying is it's like this is something hey we're having a.

[00:34:45] We're having this sort of thematic thing it draws it doesn't make it carnal right and I think we just have to be careful how we use that word and you know at the.

[00:34:56] It's something that we haven't used or just because it's something that is used outside of the church model doesn't make it carnal so there are carnal things. Sure we go to great lengths to talk about some of the. Some of the.

[00:35:12] That he had with some of the behaviors within the denomination that he was part of as they were trying to. Trying to try to motivate people from their carnality that's a different subject right what we're talking about is how you know my goodness you're in a community.

[00:35:27] There are thousands of people that are outside of relationship with Jesus what is the best way for us to connect with them and that's not carnal that's.

[00:35:36] Use that's seeking God and using the opportunity that we have and I love Jim I think that's important you emphasizing that and you know we can illustrate it this way children's ministry.

[00:35:47] Why do we focus on having a really good children's ministry is it a directional yeah it is but what does it do it's meeting what you talked about.

[00:35:55] Rob the the felt need of the parent who's coming they want to know that their kids are safe they want to know that they're slow into 20 and talking and rolling and you know their kids into children's ministry where they're actually going to be cared for and so.

[00:36:08] That's the principle that we're talking about is there's nothing carnal in that. We just want to play pay really close attention to the details such that there's no hindrance there. There's no friction there for for them to be able to get in.

[00:36:25] Yeah and Rob I you know when you mentioned because you mentioned a couple of times I was interested in hearing from you and then also you guys but you know you I know you do.

[00:36:36] Is it both Easter and Christmas that you do off site Rob is it just Easter. And so and it's become a community event much larger than oh yeah and and so what kind of retention do you think you have from people that.

[00:36:55] That show up there that aren't you know either don't know the Lord and come to the Lord or aren't connected in church and have kind of seen what. That's a great question so the yeah the service will have.

[00:37:15] Two to three times the amount of people that come to the service that normally come to the church on on a given weekend and the retention from the people that get saved is really really good I mean we'll see those people.

[00:37:31] And they'll show up and they'll get they'll get baptized we usually we have about to them the following week.

[00:37:39] We start our new believers class immediately after that and so that they can get you know plugged in and we see that a lot for the a lot of the other people and we definitely will see after Easter.

[00:37:54] And it's a great influx of people that are coming to visit but it's it's not like the church triples after Easter because there are and I think you guys do this too so our Easter service is a community event and we have people who.

[00:38:10] I have pastors that tell me you know I have some of you who are my shirts that go to your Easter service and they because it's just a great setting and they just really like the setting and they come to it.

[00:38:20] And they liked the experience and it's a great you know it's a great day that we that we put on always there so a lot of those people they'll they'll go back to their you know other churches and what not but we always we always see an influx and so we immediately like I said we try to.

[00:38:40] You know I'm always doing a new series and we're trying to just grab them by you know we do our greeters really big that day we give we have giveaways out in our courtyard where we have our.

[00:38:52] Coffee cart meals and just anything that we can do but I also just like Jason said we're trying to get all of our leaders our greeters our children's ministry.

[00:39:03] To all be gearing up for that influx of people and just with a heightened awareness of you know we want to be just looking for.

[00:39:15] You know these new you know families that are they're coming in in a way that we can engage them and so we definitely see an influx but it's definitely not like everybody that comes to the service that isn't from our church shows up. That makes sense.

[00:39:33] Yeah yeah and Jason what do you what does he still look like for you guys we tried to recreate pastor robbs outdoor service but it's usually 98 degrees by Easter time and so the couple times we did that expressly during COVID people just passing out because of heat but.

[00:39:50] We tried it we we've been trying until very the last couple years we tried to have a venue that we can have one.

[00:40:00] Big service at so for the first few years we were there we rented out a high school gymnasium and just use that as our Easter service.

[00:40:13] What's happened recently is that we there's no there's we don't have a venue that can get all of us in one service I mean other than we haven't. I mean hockey arena but that's that's a hundred thousand dollars to rent and and it's just a little bit.

[00:40:29] Yeah, it's testing to send me a check for it we find but so anyway so now and for you know and I really don't like it but now we just you know we did we did we did four Easter services last year at our building we're going to do five this year.

[00:40:43] Just try to accommodate all the people coming in because there's not a venue that we can do so I do love that I wish we could do that in something that could afford because it was it was awesome when we could.

[00:40:55] But in that case your your retention level percentage wise is likely.

[00:41:02] You're right because they're getting to experience you know what the church facility is like and everything that goes around with that we're talking about like you said so beautifully it's not just because just because it's a traction.

[00:41:16] And they get kernel and so they come in and they see the coffee machines and they see that my kids are being loved in children's ministry and hey the pastor is you know doesn't have a collar choking his neck like there's all these things that they're used to their whole life.

[00:41:30] That they go well this is fine so yes the retention rate is is is much more but again we don't our our our attendance doesn't triple on Easter either so it's not the same thing that happens but but we do we do.

[00:41:45] And we do have a lot of people that come in and stay. What about for you you guys do that big thing at the park right.

[00:41:51] Yeah yeah it's same thing I mean and you know back to momentum you know like you were describing briefly rob in Oregon when we started you know our momentum was very very slow.

[00:42:06] And you know we were we were two years in we'd started with about 15 people and two years in we were about 30. And I was we had rented this community center and after two years we moved into a seven day event building.

[00:42:24] And I drove back by the community center and it's kind of you shaped and in the use space. I think they used all the rent money that we given and they built this beautiful little courtyard.

[00:42:36] And so I called our worship leader and I said hey we meet me down at this park and and I said hey look at this I said can we do Easter here. And he said I think so and so that was the that was momentum.

[00:42:51] Like let's see you know why are we in this and I mean the why are we in this building when we live in this community. And we could take Easter outside and so we did it that that first time and we had like a hundred people show up.

[00:43:06] And it blew our minds yeah we were just like what have a well the next Sunday we weren't 100 people yeah we know we were 30 and change. Yeah and you know fast forward another year and the church is grown to probably 40.

[00:43:22] And we did Easter again and it like a hundred and 50 people show that and then it was that in between that next year is when our church started to grow.

[00:43:33] And so by we skipped a year and by that next year it was that park area that we had met in wasn't large enough.

[00:43:42] So we found this other part actually heard Ricky Ryan say one time I want to do ministry and all the coolest places in my community. And this park that we have is right on the water it's absolutely beautiful.

[00:43:55] So we just contacted the city and they allowed us to use it and so we've been there for now for 20 years and.

[00:44:03] And it's a community event and it's one of those things we start getting phone calls asking if we're having it the some of the hotels put out the literature to let their guests know that if they're looking for an Easter service so.

[00:44:17] It's much it's much bigger than I like you said, Rob and we we do it in it in no way when I walk up on the scene do I think okay we're going to have this many people next Sunday.

[00:44:30] But we do want to do the best that we can to say listen if you if you don't have a place to fellowship this is who we are this is where we meet and then you know I think we need to do a better job.

[00:44:47] That you know as you guys are describing the teams just being ready.

[00:44:52] Yeah, like you know I think they do that I think they do it well but just a little bit more I mean as we're as we're heading towards Easter this year just a little bit more of that awareness that if you see a face on what would it be April six or seven or whatever this year is the week after Easter seven.

[00:45:10] And hey, if you see a face you don't recognize they might not have ever been on this campus before. Yeah I think that's I think that's wisdom.

[00:45:17] Yeah, you know one of things we're doing this year just as an example so right our music on Easter is always you know just off the charts is really really good our worship team does fantastic job we have we're doing a choir as well and.

[00:45:33] So the first Wednesday night after Easter we're having what we call our magnifying night thank you call them first Wednesdays it's like a worship night and so that's one of the things we're advertising for on Easter is you know hey come out for.

[00:45:49] You know this worship night they're going to hear you know this great and then the following Sunday I'm starting you know that brand new series and so those are ways that we're trying to attract.

[00:46:00] Some of those you know new people those people who you know not really the ones that are going to another church but the people who are coming. Who were brought by with a friend you know this year we're kind of this Sunday.

[00:46:13] It will be what's this Sunday what's the day this coming Sunday yeah. You're going to like it's more you. Yeah, I think it's March 3rd yeah first Sunday in March and so we're launching a we're calling it.

[00:46:29] A little card we're handing out this is pray and bite bring and when I'm asking the church to really be thinking about doing is three people who don't know Jesus that they want to be praying for that they can invite and bring and then three prodigals on the backside I have that on the backside of that card and.

[00:46:48] And just trying to get our people to be thinking intentionally about how incredible what incredible opportunity and Easter service to be.

[00:46:58] To you know and with the Easter coming so early this year I mean I don't think a lot of people are even realizing that Easter is a month away basically.

[00:47:08] Yeah well and we talked about this I kind of want to circle back to it that you know and nuts and bolts issue a strategic issue is. As it pertains to really all of your events but Easter in particular would be one. We count everything.

[00:47:25] And not in a sinful you know David being rebuked by the Lord kind of way but we do so for an issue of stewardship.

[00:47:32] And so we and we over the years have been able to see okay this was our overall attendance these were the different you know ministries that their numbers there how much did they grow and so every year we can fairly project.

[00:47:50] You know God does this year what he did last year and so on and that helps us for chair rentals it helps us for venue consideration and all of these.

[00:47:59] In form the momentum that you have and I like what you said Jason about using your facility I think that.

[00:48:07] Any chance you've got an opportunity to get people in your facility is good long term because that's that's probably the biggest hurdle for people to overcome is actually dark in your doorway.

[00:48:21] Once they've come then and if they've had a good experience and and all then you have a greater in you know opportunity to bring them back so. Let's shift gears a little bit and let's talk about this idea of you know we've talked about initiating.

[00:48:39] Momentum let's talk about the idea of guiding momentum and the picture that came to my mind is like a train. You know heading down the track I think all of us we've been to Europe we've been on those high speed you know trains that's going.

[00:48:57] You know 100 miles an hour but we all know that if that track that train. You know it's hitting a corner and going too fast it's going to cause a mass destruction and I think the same thing can happen you know when we're experiencing momentum especially.

[00:49:13] Let's say God is doing something you know new. What are the tracks that you guys put in place to try to guide you know that momentum and how do you stay how do you do that in staying sensitive to the Holy Spirit and not.

[00:49:33] Micro managing too much where do you find the balance in that anybody want to. I'll get the ball rolling um. We've already touched on one of them that's a clear definition of vision that's a massively important component that you have to.

[00:49:49] You have to have your vision very clearly defined for everybody who's on board. Okay let me interrupt you on that just a minute so and I love to get this from all of you guys right so with that being said is that something.

[00:50:02] Is defining your vision something that you repeat often yes in your services oh yeah.

[00:50:09] We have it on their wall like it literally is on the wall as they as they leave so they understand the the mission statement of the church because what what what what Ted is saying is so important because as as as any church grows.

[00:50:21] You know people are coming in and they have all these things they think you should be doing right and and and part of the things that can derail you as a as a ministry.

[00:50:30] You know what I mean is is is doing things that God never intended you to do you know and they're wonderful things they're wonderful things I mean we just had this long meaning about someone who wanted to figure out where the best.

[00:50:41] Barial spaces were at and and selling casket so their dead serious like they will become the funeral home because that's the better way to minister people and I and I love the person's heart like the heart as they want to better minister to people who are hurting.

[00:50:55] I can go well no no because we we visit them we send flowers to him we get involved in grief shared our church but selling them plots and selling them is not what what I'm supposed to do and so as things get bigger it's really good to take it.

[00:51:09] Does this fit in what God has called me to do. God has called us to do as a church and really stay with that and again when people start to say well why not.

[00:51:18] That's what I think to say I can just point well the walls and yeah and the walking is much prayer what is the wall say Jesus the walls is what we exist to help people fall in love with Jesus through the preaching of his word through the the Holy Spirit and the worship of his name.

[00:51:33] And so we exist to help people fall in love with Jesus and we do that through the teaching through worship and through the Holy Spirit and so that's kind of where we.

[00:51:41] That if it doesn't fit into what we're we're we're trying to do then it's easy for me to say no and not become over complicated. And well and what we've done in that regard where we're vision is concerned is that you know I love Craig Groschel's quote.

[00:51:59] That culture is a combination of what you create and what you allow.

[00:52:04] And so you have to guard you have to guard both gates really hard on what you're creating and then this the bigger you get the more important this is to because we're delegating authority all the time and so now.

[00:52:16] We have a men's ministry leader a men's ministry leader we've got a children's ministry director and they're creating their ministry curriculum they're creating their their agenda and their schedule.

[00:52:30] And if they are creeping on mission then that's going to inform their programming and that's going to be adverse to our overall culture and so that's where we want to really make sure that. Those that we're delegating into positions authority.

[00:52:46] Understand the vision and we've we have of course our mission statement on the wall, but we also have a series of particular values that we have emphasized to our staff.

[00:52:59] To our to our congregation and so we say these are our nine values and these inform everything we do and where do you have those those eggs I've done a series a teaching series on that and so that's available on our website when we have our.

[00:53:16] Orientation for those that are new to the church we send them that series digitally. And so that they can understand what our values are and and who we are and of course they're they're written we have them written on our website as well.

[00:53:31] And we start out every year with a vision Sunday where we we do reiterate the mission and then beyond just that one paragraph sentence something that I stole from you that you stole from somebody else I'm sure pastor.

[00:53:42] But just you know we exist to you know for in reach of reach an outreach yeah. So from Jim that's that's probably true.

[00:53:51] But the reality is yeah we in that that defines like you said our purposes we want we want to have outreach we want to have up reach we want to have in reach we want to do all these different things.

[00:54:00] And we do we repeat it at every new to the garden which we do three three times a year when all those talk about maintaining momentum all the new people are coming in.

[00:54:08] Having this new to the garden luncheon and then we repeat this thing and then once a year we start the year kind of with it.

[00:54:14] It's for me like almost like the thing with you it's you know the first Sunday in January is usually a low attendance Sunday because people are either out of town with families vacations all that stuff right so it's not I don't feel like it's I had a starting new book this day but I certainly can reiterate the vision and people will listen in.

[00:54:30] And it's great day to do it I'm starting the new year and just like now do you do reiterate verbally every single week your. Mission I do not you don't do do you do that. Jim, I don't do that either and to be honest with you.

[00:54:45] I sometimes I hear people doing that and it bothers me a little bit something. You should be saying simply Jesus every time you speak to them. I mean that's I know I know Pastor Rob Smith's statement so are so the reality is you should be saying that.

[00:55:00] Yeah anyway I'm just but you know they're guidelines what are the other guidelines so you're you reiterate your. You reiterate your mission every week yeah well no I don't I don't reiterate it every week okay but often.

[00:55:12] Yeah off okay anytime I have an opportunity in the in the regular teaching of the word.

[00:55:18] To when we touch on one of our values for me to say you know as a church this is our value we have value statement associated with that value and again it just reinforces culture so so that's important.

[00:55:31] So a clear definition of vision provides continuity across all your ministers as we've talking about it prevents mission creep. A clear delegation of authority and expectation of your ministry leaders.

[00:55:45] And so as long as they got the vision and as long as they're in line with the vision and their values are consistent then their programming can that can inform their programming and they can have.

[00:55:59] The latitude to be able to to develop their own programming within their departments.

[00:56:05] And then good communication and part and parcel with that is that we have good long range planning with clear expectations and responsibilities so I bring all of our department heads together on a monthly basis and we go over various things.

[00:56:22] And you know there is that annually we're establishing the church calendar and this is an important part too.

[00:56:30] And bog down in the details but it's so important that we've encountered this in the church calendar where you know the men's ministry wants to do this you know men's retreat and the youth they will they've planned a youth retreat.

[00:56:45] And then you look pretty soon if you're not if you're not being strategic about what your what your calendar looks like.

[00:56:52] Then you can have a situation where it's like within a three week period of time we got three retreats and for the average family in the church they're looking at seven or eight hundred dollars in that nobody can afford that.

[00:57:04] And so you have to say no this has to inform our programming to where we're we're being. For coordinating between everybody yeah that's a brilliant way of creating you know those guidelines and and I think also you know whenever.

[00:57:21] There is a retreat I mean you have people gone right and you know if you have a women's retreat.

[00:57:30] A lot of times the guys don't come right you know because they don't want to get their kids you know to to church and I crack up those are some of the best Sunday. You watch how they bring their yeah the kids shop in their pajamas.

[00:57:45] You know I'm gonna come there but it's like bro you made it good job. But Jim what about you what are some of the guidelines that you or the the tracks that you have in place to guide momentum at Viro.

[00:58:04] You know I you know I agree with with Ted's you know sort of initial assessment thing that you know if this. If you're sitting around if this was a board of directors of any company you have. You have a vision.

[00:58:21] And I think that's what the idea is in the state of our as a wonderfully written for us and the inspired word of God like we were given directors by God. And then we have a mission and that mission is how do we accomplish that vision so our.

[00:58:32] You know my vision is to preach the gospel make disciples, clean up leaders and. And so our mission is. How are we going about doing that and you know the fellowship of churches that we're connected with puts a. High emphasis upon expository teaching of the word and upon.

[00:58:54] And environment that allows people to connect with the Lord and to develop relationships with one another. And then we have what we might call the the expression of the mission.

[00:59:07] And so what is that look like for us based upon the the people that God has brought around us. And so you know you know when you have when you have a certain individual and this guy is overseeing an area of your ministry.

[00:59:23] The gifts that he has and the flavors. What that looks like. And then if the Lord moves him on and someone else comes in you don't expect that new person to bring all that same flavor to it that that new person now they they have to have.

[00:59:39] The vision and the mission but the expression is going to be is going to depend a little. I'm upon the giftings that they have the personality they have the experience that they have so so I think like for for us we're looking at. We don't want and and.

[00:59:58] Ted use the phrase I think mission creep.

[01:00:02] I've heard the word mission or the phrase mission drift right which we kind of be. You know what is something is something that shouldn't be is coming into the mission that we have what we're called to do the other would be.

[01:00:15] We've let ourselves kind of we let the the lane wide and too much. We've got off track. And so I think you know for us is is how do we avoid the momentum being.

[01:00:29] Altered or tripped up or everything we just want to make sure are we are we doing the things is this thing that we're going to step into not only part of the vision.

[01:00:42] But is it part of our mission for fulfilling that vision that I might give an example of.

[01:00:49] We we did for a few years we did the harvest festival type type thing here at the church and and it was sweet you know I think the families that that were part of it and it was very well attended.

[01:01:06] But as we looked at it and it was just something it was like you know this is not this is not the steps that we're taking to fill our vision and there.

[01:01:15] And so we're going to have some wonderful other churches in the community that are doing something like that they're doing it well. I don't think that we're going to express our energy as a as a team into that our energy is going to be more directed.

[01:01:30] Into the outreach type ministry of something like Christmas or Easter or we do a look our student ministry does a larger than they call Sunday night live and.

[01:01:41] Our energies are going towards that so it's not that it's a it's not a bad thing mean my goodness you got a bunch of people.

[01:01:47] Loving children being super creative on how they can have a game that attracts kids and bless us and it's a wonderful thing but it didn't fit with what we felt like was. The mission to fulfill our vision.

[01:02:01] Another way to illustrate it is we had we had a guy who's with us for 10 years as our worship leader one of the most. One of the most unique individuals I've ever known and he's delicious with us he has a like a.

[01:02:15] Parachurch in the positive way, Paranaut to suck from but to assist in the the work of the church is incredibly gifted guy and very unique. And when he was on our staff are in our church looked a certain way when he left. No no one could feel those.

[01:02:38] So so the the expression of the niche of the of the niche and or vision changed when he left and so I think for for us you know and we don't we don't do it perfectly and we probably make more mistakes than I would love to admit but.

[01:02:57] But the idea of is this part of what we've been called to do in order for fill these things or is it just something that it's a good thing but it's not what we're called to do and so.

[01:03:12] Collectively as a team that's how we assess whether we're going to do something and then if we're you know if we're talking to someone who's leading one of the teams I think you refer to miss like a department head maybe.

[01:03:28] You know somebody like that is it's like hey this was cool but listen, it doesn't quite fit here. Let's we've drifted let's get back to what we're doing so I think those three things for us would be vision mission and then expression. Jason anything when I had to.

[01:03:43] No, I think it's very good. I was going to say the same thing I mean the only thing I would just maybe add or reiterate what you said Jim that I think is really a plus and in all of our ministries is.

[01:03:57] You know the emphasis that we do place on the solid teaching of the word of God I think creates naturally really good guidelines.

[01:04:07] You know for us to help keep us on track to where we're not chasing you know after things or we're we're trying to we're adding you know we think about momentum in the sense of a fire you're adding fuel to the fire and.

[01:04:26] The fuel we're adding to the fire is fuel that fits within the vision and you know I think we've all seen fires that have gotten out of control because you know it was fuel being added to it that you know wasn't the proper fuel for the for the setting we probably all have stories of.

[01:04:47] When that happened but. No, I think that's right. You got a story to move here. I've been there maybe a year or something like this as the guy's house from our church in across the street is a real wooded area.

[01:05:02] And there's a guy with a pile of of leaves that he's right from his yard on the edge of his driveway. He's got a gas can he's pouring gasoline leaves and he's smoking a cigarette and he flicks a match into this.

[01:05:16] You're going to gas can't win and a cigarette in the other hand at a burning pile of leaves in front of it. So maybe what you're describing rob is is the spiritual or. Ministerial equivalent to that guy.

[01:05:30] When I was in the fire department, we called that job security. That's great. Well, it's great stuff guys before we wrap up any final thoughts from anybody on this subject of. Well, I think it's important to just to quickly address how you can kill momentum.

[01:05:49] Yeah, when we're talking about momentum, we've spent a lot of great time just talking about getting people as on roads but you know killing momentum in your church and I think it's it's easily described by doing the opposite what we've been saying the whole time.

[01:06:02] But just to get kind of specific, you know, if you have every every church in America has these on roads that happen after Easter after Christmas and events that happen in there.

[01:06:13] And to me, you can kill momentum when you're not thinking about what's going to happen or you don't have the planning to take those people and have them find a home.

[01:06:26] You know, I learned from you from you, from you, Ted a long time ago just the whole idea of, you know, we especially as Calvary pastors.

[01:06:35] We we love to, you know, say what's the teaching this teaching this teaching it is right, but without good children's ministry meaning high school and junior high, not just five year olds but

[01:06:46] But but children if there's not a if there's not thought and training and it's all you know our jobs as the pastor's the church to make sure these. These precious people who serve are are on the same page and the same vision and the same heart.

[01:06:59] If that's not done, then all these visitors doesn't matter how brilliantly you can rhyme three point. Yeah, illustrate and a nun see eight and all this kind of stuff if they don't feel like their kids are loved and safe.

[01:07:13] You're going to kill momentum and I think is a staff, you know, you can you can you can kill momentum by overwhelming them, you know, because I think,

[01:07:22] especially those of us that God graciously entrusted in leadership, I think part of the reason he does so is there's a lot of vision. There's a lot of vision but we also have to remember that these precious people who work for us or serve in our ministries.

[01:07:37] You know, they can't just be the vehicles by which our vision gets accomplished, you know, they're there they're there they're there, we're there to serve them,

[01:07:47] but we're also there to let them use the gifts and callings God has given to them and we can say, well I think we should do all of these things, all of these things increase momentum.

[01:07:56] But you got to really have a pulse on how is your staff, how are your volunteers, you know, how are they really doing and having those communications because when people get overwhelmed and overworked,

[01:08:08] well then it's just going to kill the momentum that what God does and of course, you know, obviously then, you know,

[01:08:14] we've got to stay walking with Jesus and close to Jesus because you can put on the greatest show on earth, but if you're not walking with Jesus it's not going to last.

[01:08:23] And so, you know, as leaders, our personal relationship with Jesus is so important to maintain the momentum that God wants to bring in the church.

[01:08:33] So those three things I think are really important to start when you brought this subject up, killing momentum, immediately what you mentioned, burning out your staff, setting a pace that that choosing them up and spits them out, that immediately came to my mind.

[01:08:48] I think about having conflicting events that can kill momentum, having too many events and they're not the same thing, you know, having too many events can burn, can burn people out, kill momentum, dilute momentum, I guess it's probably a better term.

[01:09:07] And canceling events, we are hyper focused on if you're going to schedule something, you're going to have it.

[01:09:15] Now, you know, occasionally something happens, you have to cancel it, but that should be so, so rare and some people, they just sort of manage things poorly and things get canceled often and I think that that is that's toxic to momentum as well.

[01:09:37] And one last thing, and because I'm not sure the audience, but you know, you started rob by mentioning the length of time that we've all been at the churches that we're at.

[01:09:51] And that, you know, it's this is a, they're developing organisms, you know, over time and, and if, you know, where we are right now is not where we're always going to be in areas of ministry.

[01:10:08] And so even as you describe Jason the importance of having the, you know, the children's ministry and the youth ministry.

[01:10:16] And that's that's something that we're, we're, I don't know if this is a, maybe this is a carnal word but targeting like we're, we're looking at this is this is our objective, but we realize we're not there now.

[01:10:28] I mean, for a long, long time, you know, our art. In South Florida, a few hours from us is where Calre for Latterdale is and we would in the early years periodically get someone coming up this way and visiting and they'd come in the door with this expectation.

[01:10:47] You know, Calre, Latter, Latterdale was a church of north of 15,000 people on a massive campus with every amenity can imagine and they walked in the door to 30 people. And a tired mom is watching the kids.

[01:11:04] And and it's like that's what where we were then and I think that it's important, you know, if you're in ministry and you're in the early years of ministry or you're in a, you're in a period of a transition is taking place within the ministry that's left a big hole.

[01:11:19] That it, it's okay that you're not there yet, but what you're doing is you're looking at how do we get there adventure like who are we, how are we investing in people and training people and everything and so just, you know,

[01:11:33] that we, we want to be there. We're not necessarily there yet. There's a big difference between just not caring so I think that it, it, it are part of the idea of momentum is that it's movement, you know, Paul was a fan of the idiom walking which implies forward motion and so I think it's yeah, where we're headed.

[01:11:57] I think it applies to every stage like you're saying, I mean, you're just you can you can love on and pour in and out overwhelmed your volunteers when you're 30 people.

[01:12:06] And you can you can overwhelm and and exacerbate your people when you're at 5,000 people. I mean, the reality is is that every stage, the principles do apply it look different.

[01:12:16] It's going to look different at all four of our churches and look different in the different stages our church has gone through, but every stage I can love people.

[01:12:24] I can make sure the servants that God is as blessed me with whether it's one or whether it's a bunch, you know, or 11 those people that God put in them and then we just keep moving forward like you're saying just keep moving forward to be okay because, you know, like we say all the time success is not success in the Lord's eyes is not how many people are walking inside the doors of your church

[01:12:43] but it's how faithful you be and with what God is giving you in that season of your life. And so it's important reminder.

[01:12:50] And then what you said earlier, 2 GM just to affirm that, having that introspection where you could look at your organization go, man we got a crank in event, we got a lot of success bodies are showing up.

[01:13:06] I'm talking about your harvest gathering, how long we know it's turning in. And yet have the wherewithal to go you know what this is we're not accomplishing our vision here.

[01:13:18] This is actually we have a lot of momentum but it's in the wrong direction and we got to kill this thing. And I know, you know, I just appreciate it that when you share that example. Really good.

[01:13:29] I think I would just close this out with this thought and it's something I wish I would have learned early on when I was church planting that I've learned now and it's the the phrase, the idea that less is sometimes more.

[01:13:45] And sometimes you know what I encourage guys, especially guys that are just starting out is hey do one thing really really well. And don't even try to do a second thing until you're doing that one thing really really really well.

[01:14:00] And I think in that it really helps in not burning people out and just you know you're creating momentum and you're fanning that momentum by just you know hey we're focused on this.

[01:14:14] Hey we're focused on this one thing just Sunday mornings right now we're focused on doing Sundays really really really well.

[01:14:20] And you know we're not doing anything else right now because you know I think like you said, you know Ted, one of the things that can kill momentum is just when we're trying to do too many things we've got too many things going on.

[01:14:32] And it's wearing everybody out and everything's competing you know everything's competing with one another and so less is more. Often times I say I say can't get you take a put off the gas it a lot of times to get you put it to the floor.

[01:14:46] So all right well guys thanks so much for being with us today Jason being in house and Jim being online and and bright sunny Florida. A little shorter commute for me.

[01:15:04] But love you guys appreciate what you guys are doing and how God's using your ministries and so thanks for being on show. Thanks for having us I felt like I learned a lot.

[01:15:18] Hey that concludes our show for today and I want to thank you so much for joining us on the leadership collective podcast.

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