Church Leadership - Giving Women a Seat at the Table - Bonus Episode | Brenda Leavenworth, Jen Bursch, Annie Harley, & Shirley Ruiz

[00:00:02] It's that we get to equip people to fulfill the gifts that God has given them, get to equip people to... So that they can fulfill their purpose and bring other people closer to him.

[00:00:13] And so it comes down to how my equipy milliliters that aren't front of me, and it is so easy to overlook. A woman, it's easy to have that go unnoticed.

[00:00:24] But it really just takes up pausing to be like, look at these women who are oftentimes leading running these churches and how can I steward the gifts that God has given them, and steward the people that are in front of me

[00:00:37] to develop them and equip them so that they can be serving at their highest capacity to honor and glorify God. Well today in this bonus episode of The Leadership Collective, we're sharing a recent episode from our friends at The When She Leeds Podcast

[00:00:54] and this episode focuses on developing women in church leadership and helping them to find their seat at the leadership table. We think it's a timely and thoughtful discussion and we hope it blesses you. Today our topic is church leadership, giving women a seat at the table.

[00:01:17] And I am joined by three amazing ladies who each serve in high level positions within their home churches. So I want you guys high from first. How are you?

[00:01:29] I want you guys to eat, take a moment and just kind of introduce yourself and then share where you are currently serving. Hi, my name is Jen Burst. I am an attorney and I'm currently serving at Calvary Marietta.

[00:01:43] I'm the executive director there and also the head of schools. I mean are you busy at all? No. My name is Annie Harley and I'm currently serving at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale where I get to support the women of our church as a director of Calvary Women.

[00:02:01] So glad to have you, Annie. Thank you for having me. I am Shirley Ruiz and I'm currently serving here at Reliant Church as the Church Administrator. I am the manager of all the spinning plates. Yes, you are. I'm sure.

[00:02:16] Shirley, well my husband and I so surely is my husband, Secretary, and she's the Administrator of our church. And we basically say that her job is childcare over us. Yeah. So I'm beyond excited to have this conversation today.

[00:02:31] I'm going to be a little bit more excited about the work that we're going to do. I believe it's such an important one and women generally make up at least half of our church attendance and often more.

[00:02:40] And yet the collective experience seems to be that women are not encouraged to use their God-given giftings in higher levels of church leadership. And that's why we're having this conversation.

[00:02:52] I've heard comments and maybe you guys have two but I've heard comments like, though there's one high level position in the church. And it's held by the pastors wife like speaking of like women's ministry direction.

[00:03:03] And I think most pastors are happy to hand that over but rarely do they want to oversee that area. Further even when women are given opportunities for high levels of leadership in the church they're not invited into like the important meetings where they would have a voice.

[00:03:21] Or they would have it seat at the table. And so now before we excite some of you and defend others, let me just say regardless of your theological framework on this issue that we can all agree and one thing out front that God loves his women.

[00:03:39] He desires for us to use our spiritual gifts and in his church and that may be different.

[00:03:45] For a church body depending on the interpretation of certain scriptures and so we're not going to do a deep dive for our conversation into some of those, you know, controversial scriptures or those that we might divide over.

[00:03:58] Because nobody's figured that out perfectly and if we get into the weeds there we won't talk about the conversation that we want to have. So we have to have grace I think for church bodies doing their best to rightly divide the word.

[00:04:12] And again none of us have it figured out so our framework through C. G. and our network and my home church of reliance we're a complimentary and I don't know if that's the same for you Annie we can talk about that but our framework is complimentary and and that has a lot of nuances right we can't even agree even within that section.

[00:04:33] What is right and what is wrong and so.

[00:04:38] You will hear that come through in our conversation so our desire as I set this topic up our desire really is to open the conversation not complete it and so because people will say you know you get on the podcast and then people will say well you didn't mention this or you didn't say this and it's like will we have we're opening the conversation we're not completing it so.

[00:05:00] Let's let's dig in what are what are some of your thoughts why are we having this conversation.

[00:05:07] Yeah I totally agree with what you are just saying of like this outside of theological framework women need to be developed it's not a question of if but it's like a necessity when we look at church vitality.

[00:05:22] There's a great report that came from barna which just as really great church research.

[00:05:28] It was called Christians at work and the data indicated that women are only 24% likely to believe that they can use their unique gifts that are unique talents outside of the workplace and so in the article it says that it should be an alarming bell for ministry leaders.

[00:05:49] And as we look at church vitality and how women do make up 60% of the church developing leaders is essential to the longevity of the church moving forward. Yeah that's so good I love that what do you think, Shirley?

[00:06:07] I think that it is very important. I know for me I've spent a lot of times questioning my giftings questioning you know feeling stuck.

[00:06:17] Am I operating outside of the will of God? Why do I have all these giftings? What am I supposed to do with them? Why you know just feeling like I have so much to say but where do I say it?

[00:06:28] How do I say it? And for women the kind of a mental gymnastics for a lack of a better word that we have to go through to say the things that we need to say to get our points across how do we maneuver that when when's appropriate time because it's not just sometimes I don't feel like there's been permission.

[00:06:49] Or a welcoming like are we welcome in that conversation are we even when we're in the meeting is our voice welcomed at the table are is our opinions are our opinions welcomed at the table and I think that you know we have such a unique perspective as women that we bring to the table.

[00:07:09] And I think we represent the women of our body what are your initial thoughts, Jen?

[00:07:14] Yeah I really agree I'm the mom of a nine year old she's about to be nine and a week and I really look at her and just want her to know even growing up through the church when I was growing up I just had a different perspective on it.

[00:07:28] I don't know what I thought that I could use my giftings and the church.

[00:07:31] I never saw any women use their giftings and the church except for as a children's director at the time and I didn't feel called to that so I went and got an education and started working with ministries outside and I really want something different for her and for her generation.

[00:07:49] I would love to be able to say that we do have a seat at the table and understand how important that is and for her to understand that whatever the gifts are that got his given her that she can develop them and that she can use them mightily in the church for his kingdom.

[00:08:04] I think all women and all girls need to understand that and know it and believe it and have that experience.

[00:08:10] And it is something that's so sorely been lacking but I think it's changing and it's awesome to watch a change and awesome to be a part of the change.

[00:08:19] It's so amazing because you think about like you being an attorney and then we have education, we have all these giftings and then we come to church and it's like oh we can serve coffee or we can work in a nursery or we can maybe help the pastor's wife with women's ministry.

[00:08:40] I don't think that's what God intended. You know there are certain male roles and we can we can get to that we know that exclusive we're not saying move over men the women are here.

[00:08:51] That's not what this conversation is right this conversation is about us representing the women the half the women of the body of Christ bringing the uniqueness to the table.

[00:09:03] We see things differently than men do at the table you know as we're having these meetings we're eating in the discipleship process.

[00:09:11] We're training women leaders we're after their spiritual well being and and these are the things that we want to open up in those discussions and so I would imagine as the director. The operations director what is that like like what kind of meetings are you in.

[00:09:31] I'm pretty much in all of them. I'm actually on the church board at Calvary Maria as well as of about two years ago so as executive director I'm in. Most of the operational and ministry meetings and I'm also in our church board meetings our mission board meetings.

[00:09:47] So yeah it's definitely a unique view the church that I never I never thought I would have and I'm 42 and I just look at the rest of my career and.

[00:09:56] I just think the Lord that I'm in the physician I'm in and able to use my guests within the church.

[00:10:02] The way that I'm able to use them and be in the room and I do think that I am the only woman in the room and a lot of those meetings because.

[00:10:11] And I think that's a great way to make sure that the things have changed over the last couple years and even that is just different it's a different look at it.

[00:10:19] But I look at things differently I think women generally look at things differently and having that voice and being able to be in the room. It's great.

[00:10:27] Yeah and I have questions for you but Annie I was thinking about we were talking about your pastor Doug and what you were telling us yesterday or the Monday something about what he does to incorporate women share that with us.

[00:10:44] Yeah, Pastor Doug is on such a great job at really creating space for women to be in the room and one thing that he's done is for the last four years he's taking a group of men through a leadership cohort and this past year actually took the first group of women through his leadership cohort it's very similar content you're learning how to communicate right a devote your doing some.

[00:11:09] You're talking about your story your testimony going in deep into the gifts got us given you and that's been a really beautiful expression of taking the 12 highest. Female leaders were a larger church and so we have a lot of women and men on staff.

[00:11:23] So now he's starting in his second year of taking both men and women through that cohort and that was a really life giving experience for us to get to ask questions.

[00:11:32] To get to be in the room and have really the same investment that any man would receive here on staff.

[00:11:39] Well, that's incredible. A few months ago I was invited to a vision meeting for the network that we're a part of and and I was chatting with one of the pastors there and he was just sharing that this idea of.

[00:11:53] Women being in leadership and I was sharing with a group of pastors because I was invited into a vision meeting.

[00:12:02] And I was sharing with a group of pastors like hey you guys already have high level leaders within your church there there already there because my experiences most churches have high level women leaders they're just not acknowledged or they're not invited into any meetings.

[00:12:21] And so I had shared this with the group of pastors and one of the pastors well known guy came up to me after and he said you know what I have that woman I have women that are running church finances that that keep us legal.

[00:12:38] And I know a lot about church law just high level leaders that are helping around the church and he said to me I've never even thought about having inviting her to a meeting or letting her have a voice at the table.

[00:12:54] And it wasn't it was very innocent it wasn't even because he was show venistic or he didn't want to deal with those you know the problems of women and leadership which we can get into.

[00:13:06] But but I thought that was interesting and so pastor male leader if you're listening like think think about the women that you have in your church and those ones that are already leading.

[00:13:18] And and invite them into the conversation invite them into the important meetings invite them into places that they can share they represent 50% or more of your church so we should have those listening ears and women engage with those pastors with your.

[00:13:35] pastors with your pastors so much of I think the change comes from us women saying hey we do have a voice and we do have giftings and bringing it to their attention because they don't think about it and a lot of the time it is really innocent.

[00:13:49] Every time I've talked to my pastor he immediately says I totally understand that till I just never thought about it same thing absolutely you can be in that room.

[00:13:58] It's never been an issue but when they don't think about it I do think absolutely they should be thinking about it but is women we want to change it we want to have a seat at the table vocalize it talk about it bring it up go to them and if build a relationship with them and do it in a way that they can really hear what your advocating.

[00:14:18] Your advocating for an ask questions why is it like that why does it need to be like that can it be changed what would it take to change it so that you can engage in a healthy conversation about it because so many of them I totally agree have.

[00:14:31] They just don't know and it's not intentional and it's not so vinesistic it's just how it's always been. Yeah one thing we have a strong conviction about with developing any leader is that it comes down to a stewardship issue if you look at.

[00:14:49] What our main role is male or female on a church staff getting to work at church it's that we get to equip people to fulfill the gifts that got us given them get to equip people to.

[00:15:02] So that they can fulfill their purpose and bring other people closer to him and so it comes down to how am I equipping the leaders that are in front of me.

[00:15:11] And it is so easy to overlook a woman it's easy to have that go unnoticed but it really just takes a pausing to be like look at these women who are oftentimes leading running these churches and how can I steward the gifts that got his given them.

[00:15:29] And steward the people that are in front of me to develop them and equip them so that they can be serving at their highest capacity to honor and glorify God.

[00:15:38] That's amazing that kind of spark something in me because as a as a woman I expect the pastors why for what she's the one that supposed to train me right she's the one that supposed to develop my leadership and that's the way even in my mind.

[00:15:54] That's the way I think of it like oh I'm in charge of developing the women leaders around here so quite honestly the pastors are like Leonard do it.

[00:16:03] Why what I want to get into that but there's something that comes with even me being trained by a male leader that is beautiful too that that we should have me so let's let's get into because as I'm thinking through this it's like okay here then here comes the problems right so.

[00:16:23] What have been some of the issues that I that where's the tension where's the tension of why this is so difficult for us to do because we're not talking about.

[00:16:37] Taking over male headship in the church leadership within the church we understand that an elder is a male role in our context in first Timothy three we understand there's a great debate over you know women teachers and having authority.

[00:16:52] And we're not going to solve that on this show but there are so many things we can do and that's kind of what we're talking about in the roles where your local church allows women to lead their still that tension so why.

[00:17:07] Well one of the things that made me think is when we talk about that I think just the basic differences between men and women that sometimes we don't always communicate the same and so.

[00:17:19] People tend to stay in their own corners I was kind of thinking about you know as church admins when we get together at a table at a round table we all suck each other's brains dry you know and so we're you know let me clean as much as I can from you.

[00:17:33] But I don't feel in a room always with men and women that that same camaraderie happens and so I think it's just having really honest and open conversations about this is how I tick this is how I think this is you know and doing it both ways.

[00:17:50] Just even understanding you know what our love languages are for lack of better words but you know.

[00:17:55] So, acts of service is my love language so when somebody doesn't want to engage with me in a work experience it's hard for me and you know I am a motion on a girl.

[00:18:06] So but just having that almost conversation like how how do we get over that hurdle what does that look like and really just being bold and asking for permission you know I want to serve you I want to do this I want to learn.

[00:18:20] How how is that work between us and it's not just in a box because I think you know for me I see big picture I see a lot of detail like I wanted all like you know let me let me make a good evaluation let me work through it let me talk through it because I think.

[00:18:38] I most women I know talk through things you know it's not just a quick conversation. And fortunately.

[00:18:46] I think some of the tension comes from not having strong relationships because at the end of the day leadership part of leading and part of being in those meetings and part of being.

[00:18:57] Having a voice is just building relationships with male leaders and like you said you kind of just trend towards I'm involved in the women's ministry and I'm involved in the children's ministry.

[00:19:09] Especially as a female and as a mom and that those don't often generate a lot of relationship with male leaders and that's.

[00:19:20] I think for me I kind of slowly grew into this role over the last 10 years I got to know my pastor as his attorney which was outside in a different role and.

[00:19:31] The relationship grew we got to know each other we got to understand each other and understand how each other ticks and how we work.

[00:19:37] And then I became a member of our school board at our school and it's just kind of grew from there as we got to understand each other and know each other better.

[00:19:46] I do think that even that you know there's just natural boundaries and there should be natural boundaries but those boundaries don't include pouring into each other and stewarding those gifts and.

[00:19:58] Equiping other leaders around you you can do that you can do it well and you can still maintain proper boundaries between men and women and I think that it just has to be talked about because.

[00:20:10] That is I think the primary intention there's a lot of churches that have all of these rules about men and women's interactions and they're they're necessary right we all have those stories that.

[00:20:21] Or those of us who have been in church work for a long time with ministries we have stories about it and they have a place but it can't be taken as such an extremely you can't grow a build a relationship and have an honest conversation because without that honest conversation you can't be in leadership.

[00:20:40] I think oftentimes it even goes back to the question that you asked of we focus so much on the 2% that in most theological framework to what would be the bait it or you couldn't necessarily do like teaching on a Sunday but you don't focus on the 98% that you can and there's like a fear of.

[00:21:00] Okay if I open this door does that mean it's like going to be a ripple effect in all of a sudden we're going to have a church of like a lot of raging feminists and it's like no it's the goal.

[00:21:11] It's like let's slow down for a second and the goal is to really just be able to equip the women in the church that are in front of you to do the roles even that they're serving in most effectively and so there can be a fear that just needs to be.

[00:21:27] I think that's a very important thing to be silenced and you see we set aside because it is scary doing something differently it is scary.

[00:21:36] Doing something in a new way but it's like God is with us in these moments in these new territories and it's essential to just the mission of the church that we overcome that to create a new path forward.

[00:21:49] I think that's a place that they can call home and contention thrive. I think to I love that you pointed out fear that some of the tension and I think also the way we've always done it I think that there was such a swing in the pendulum about.

[00:22:04] I think that there are pastors and leaders being fearful of those relationships with women or that oh my goodness we don't want women to ever have authority over a man so she can't give the announcements on Sunday she can't be on the stage.

[00:22:17] She can God forbid she redistributes her to another man like you know I joke like if you talk about the Sunday morning teaching you know people will say oh well I taught there but my husband was on the stage.

[00:22:31] My question is what can he be in the front real then can he go to the back home can we show we tie a rope on him and he can go a certain distance like those are silly arguments they don't hold water biblically.

[00:22:45] And so yes we have to figure those things out but we also have to figure out the communication and the relationship between men and women because I agree with you Jen there has to be healthy boundaries.

[00:22:56] But that fear causes men to want to put women in another room and never look at them again.

[00:23:04] And so I think if we have healthy boundaries that's helpful to the conversation so I asked I asked my husband what has been some of the arguments maybe again or some of the fear going off that fear.

[00:23:18] And so what are pastors afraid of when contemplating bringing women into spaces of high level leadership and so I asked and he said avoiding evil.

[00:23:29] And so I'm not having to think about where they meet not able to meet can they can't meet one on one so how are we going to have this these good boundaries but then have the conversations it takes work that's what he said he's like it just takes thought it takes work you have to work through this and some people don't want to do that he I asked again and he said when discussing female decends.

[00:23:55] And that he's heard why men don't want to appoint female decends in their church is they didn't want the drama. That's been an age old argument and it's a horrible biblical argument to not have that role which is candid but very horrible and we have had to.

[00:24:18] I guess repent of that and say no this is a biblical thing why are we not doing this that's not that's not the best argument so.

[00:24:26] And then I've heard on the women side the argument like well we don't need a title why do we need a title what what's the big deal about a title it isn't a big deal about a title but God put it in his word like the office is there and so it's not like we're not begging for a title it's just it's biblical it's there.

[00:24:47] So and then he said one other thing he said this in this may be he's shovinistic but he said some just suggested that they have to watch what they say or how they say it or maybe curved their bluntness in a meeting.

[00:25:06] And but my husband said but I think that might be a healthy practice yes you know just I think that's true right let's all be honest about it I think it does change the conversation about it.

[00:25:19] They've been in a boys club for so long they get in their boys club and they all hang out and they're all it's it is the different conversation I think it is a different conversation but.

[00:25:29] on the female side we need to own that we need to go in the conversation no our stuff yes we're more emotional there's nothing wrong with our God given emotions but we do need to figure out how to have healthy boundaries with that and how to control it.

[00:25:43] to an appropriate extent in a professional meeting and many to figure out how to how to talk with women in the room in a professional way.

[00:25:53] And yeah I mean it's crazy that we're at that point where that is such an honest answer but it's real and it needs to be and I think that you all feel that right I we've all probably been I mean Annie I was struck at the beginning how many times all of us have said first the first time that my pastor did this the for in relation to women that's definitely true my experience as well.

[00:26:16] and as you go through that you're going to hit up against those bumps but you just push through them and you know you be aware yourself and you hold them to and you know accountability as well as far as the men leadership your church.

[00:26:30] for me I one of the things that I work hard on is one understanding the vision understanding the culture I've spent 15 years studying Ted and Brenda like knowing their hearts knowing all those things and just being able to exercise that.

[00:26:48] with confidence but I think that's also where we sometimes get stuck you know it wears our permission in that like I was just thinking when you were saying that for me I've kind of had this weird dynamic where.

[00:27:00] I'm nine to five I work for the church and so my role for there as a woman is very different but I'm also on the women's board so after five when I'm on the women's board I have so much more freedom.

[00:27:10] and I have you know my gifts are encouraged and appreciated and I have a seat at that table but it's like okay at five o'clock until five o'clock I can't say anything. You know and just kind of learning and understanding and developing that culture and I think.

[00:27:25] being able to be trustworthy as a woman you know I think that's important I mean we're girls but yes that conversation needs to happen the honest conversation needs to happen and the trust needs to to be there.

[00:27:38] Yeah do you guys find that you hold back it may be I don't want to say aggressiveness in the negative way but I really feel like in reality like powerful aggressive men it's seen as a strength.

[00:27:51] and I think for women to walk into the room and have and be powerful and aggressive it's let's just say it's not viewed in the same way. So so how do we how do we like sort of combat that reality and what do you think.

[00:28:07] Yeah that's a great question I think there it has to be a distinction with like the having a holy confident to like this is something got as called me to.

[00:28:19] I know got as put me in this role and so I'm gonna walk in that rather than walking in and feeling like okay I have something to prove and my voice needs to be heard right now.

[00:28:29] and it's like navigating that tension because even if you're coming in with that framework in your mind of like I have to speak up and use my voice which we absolutely do need to speak up and use our voices.

[00:28:41] Instead of walking in and I'm like this is a position God has given me and I'm going to walk in that authority that he's given me in this room that I'm going into it automatically can help to take down some of the walls because even even the tone and there's going there's a lot of.

[00:28:58] It's a very messy being in church leadership a woman in church leadership but it's been willing to enter into the mess of being like actually following up immediately like within 24 hours to have a healthy culture on women in leadership of being like hey you said that in the meeting and you actually weren't listening to what I was saying.

[00:29:19] I want you to be aware of how you listen to a woman in the room and it's uncomfortable but being able to have those immediate conversations to hold a cultural standard of we value a woman's voice.

[00:29:33] It's something that's been very helpful when you identify it and you see it addressing it after pulling that person aside afterwards because they might not even be aware that they're doing it.

[00:29:45] In the moment but it is very scary but if we try to have a sibling culture where you have like that's my brother and so I because I love him and I want him to grow as a leader too.

[00:30:00] I'm going to also enter into that space with him and one of the best things I heard is from an awesome leadership coach your name is Katie Cole and she's done a lot in the church and she actually came to one of our cohort meetings and she said just remember and we have to remind them that this is like tears are often inside oftentimes a sign of frustration for women it's like they're communicating extra through tears because I know there's a lot of tears.

[00:30:29] that have been shed and that actually helped us all feel better of like oh that's why we were crying we're just really frustrated. And so not being afraid to show some of those emotions and be raw but also obviously walking in self control in that way.

[00:30:46] I want to be anyone I grow. I'm curious. Yeah, yeah. Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:30:55] Yeah, I mean I just think that God made us who he made us right and we are different than men and I believe but luckily that's true and I think it's something to be celebrated.

[00:31:07] And at the same time yeah I totally agree with Annie as there is an aspect of self control and an aspect of just but yeah I do think women are sometimes looked differently and I think that women need to be aware of that and try to engage with self control and.

[00:31:26] And that's not a thing that we do need to challenge men that are in the room about the way that they view those things and have those healthy honest conversations that. They, you know, it shouldn't be you differently when women are.

[00:31:43] Hold their opinions really tightly I'm opinionated I just am I mean that I'm an attorney I were born and bred opinionated right like that's why you go into the lie don't know because you like to argue like I like a good argument.

[00:31:55] Exactly like that's what you do so I do hold in my opinions but how you express your opinions and how you communicate that is so important it's just as important as holding the opinion.

[00:32:10] In those meetings so that you can have a voice and I really try to own that on my side and during the times that I feel like hey that wasn't appropriate or you're not you're not able to hear me because of.

[00:32:23] That type of situation I'll call that out to kindly and nicely and with the love of the Lord. I think you have to do that I think both things are true. Jen I just want to come to one of your meetings and just I hope okay just observe.

[00:32:39] I think one thing to note is that you know God made us male and female and we're all equal at the cross and we all are called to a holiness like Annie said and we are all called to exhibit the fruit of the spirit.

[00:32:54] There are so many things that God just calls all of us to as a believer as a Christ follower and we would do well to take heed on those things and we understand that God has different roles for each of us and I think those are good sort of foundational things.

[00:33:11] That when we're coming into these rooms coming into these meetings that that we can have in the back of our head so that we can show respect or respect this do that we're just respect was reading about Joseph yesterday and it just blew me away how kind he was even after being mistreated.

[00:33:31] You know thrown tossed away like he was just like you know sold into slavery and then he comes out and he grieved over his loss and stuff but then at the end he just treats them with such compassion and kindness and so even in these rooms even in these spaces that we hold with these men.

[00:33:51] I'm still called to be a Christian it's not like oh I need to even the playing field or I can just like you were saying Annie come in and be kind and and be respectful and but deal with the issues at hand and I think that's what we're trying to get out is that.

[00:34:09] We can't be way over here on oh my gosh you know you have the conversation and now you're like you all quote you and you have raging.

[00:34:17] A lib you know women's liver but on the other hand there's been a very big show vines taken on on at times massage andistic culture that we're kind of coming out of that also says women should not be seen or heard or should be seen not heard you know I mean we don't know what to do with them so just put them over in the women's ministry.

[00:34:40] Both there's a lot of work I guess I'm getting out is there's a lot of work to be done on both sides of this equation and and so that is what we're trying to open up the conversation just to have the conversation ladies.

[00:34:54] Start having this conversation but have it well and so any any like kind of final thoughts things you're like man I really want to do a dress.

[00:35:35] taking attention all about that stewardship and intentional about what it looks like to Gospel into grow leaders in the church and how healthy that is for the church understanding that most male. the culture and it can be changed by having the conversation and being intentional about it

[00:35:56] and really looking at how can I intentionally grow women leaders in my church. It does take more planning like your husband like Ted said, I totally agree with that. It takes more time to figure out where to mean and figure out how that's going to happen and my

[00:36:13] at our church, my pastor started a leadership group that is male and female and he said he made a comment to me the other day. I can't imagine now not having women in the room,

[00:36:24] although they never happen. It just takes that one conversation about one time to move things forward but you have to be intentional about it. I just think intentionality is so important when you're talking about the topic. I just encourage women to go to their pastors and ask them

[00:36:41] point blank what potential do you see in me? You know where, where give me some direction, give me some permission. I'm desiring permission instead of holding back. I'm seeing where the Lord will

[00:36:52] place you in that body and I know in our context, we're being a Calvary Chapel, we kind of have a Moses model of government structure and some of these things I think it's important to say that

[00:37:06] based on your leadership and the structure of your government structure, the way your board set up, the things that your pastors believe, the elders believe about the Scriptures. That's going to inform how this rolls out. Every church is going to be different in the way that we have

[00:37:24] just recently, actually we've gone to department heads and so we have certain now out of our seven department heads. I think I believe three are female in our current church structure and in our

[00:37:39] our context, everything's open to women except for the role of the elder pastor. Now in our context, pastor and elder synonymous in other churches that's not true. There's a plurality of elder structure. We know the different structures but that will I think inform. Now there are

[00:37:59] some roles in our church that are just considered pastoral and that are just held for elders and pastors and that will inform which spaces that women can go into. At some churches, you know, they

[00:38:13] will not allow a woman to teach on Sunday mornings but she's allowed to teach anywhere else. Others, they take the stand that women can teach as long as they're under the the head covering of the senior

[00:38:27] pastor. These are all nuanced conversations and they all have little bit different realities for women as we're being formed in our leadership. So we have to know it's not this is the right way and

[00:38:40] if your pastor's not doing this, he's wrong and that's why I went started with grace because these will inform your own local body and that's who you're accountable to. You're accountable to

[00:38:52] that pastor and so I think that's where some of the confusion comes in is that we don't know like well wait a minute that's right over there they're allowing her to do that over there and they're not

[00:39:03] allowing me to do that over there. You know I know I know people who will allow women to teach I know people I know women pastors you know that are co-pastors with their husband but I also

[00:39:15] know men that that won't let women on their stage know women worship leaders they can't do it now I know men right now who are elders that will not let women give announcements and so you have

[00:39:28] this really wide range and so for me I'm not going to break fellowship with any of those churches just because they don't line up or there's their theology is sort of informing their structure a

[00:39:46] little bit different than ours. I just say I have grace on them I love you, your my brothers and sisters and Christ this is how you know what's culture this is how we do things around here right so

[00:39:58] this is what we're going to do. So Annie any final thoughts anything you wanted to bring up? Yeah I feel like we could talk about this forever because there are so many different tangents of conversation but I would just say practically to could just commit to listening

[00:40:16] and to learning and so for listening if for the pastors and ministry leaders listening on this podcast it's like creative, focus group with your best female leaders and be like what has your experience been like here? What challenges or road blocks do you face? What are your

[00:40:33] dreams? How can I help you and take inventory of like despite my theological framework? What rooms do I need to invite women into? Because what conversations do they need to be part of because often times women don't even know what conversations they're missing out on. They're just not

[00:40:52] part of them and so it's like who can I invite in and really go in with a posture of just learning of what can I learn more about this? How can I go deeper even into what scripture says? Because

[00:41:04] you can see there's no question that God uses women to fulfill the work that He has and so just doing that and then I would also just to add more to even the why behind having the conversation

[00:41:17] is that when you look at the church's mission moving forward right now culturally there's such a high skepticism around church, around how the church treats people, around why the church exists

[00:41:30] and I have a story that on Christmas Eve one of my co-workers came up and said I have to tell you that I randomly reconnected with an old friend of a friend from high school and we started

[00:41:41] having a conversation about faith and she asked how does your church treat women? What spaces are women in at your church and she was able to say what we have and because of that she was

[00:41:56] she is going to start coming to church here and that was like her first question about our church how does your church treat women? And so it's a really important thing for someone who's

[00:42:06] maybe not following Jesus yet who's far from God that it's being talked about a lot in outside of church and so bringing this conversation into church is super important. So it's like just

[00:42:17] start with listening, start with learning and just start the conversation and see where God will take you from there. I love that thank you so much. That was great wisdom. I just

[00:42:27] makes me think of two of Priscilla, you know and she sat down and they showed a polo said that it was you know a more excellent way. In these rooms we can share theology that we've

[00:42:40] been studying and then we can share things that are very practical. I've been in meetings before it's like will have you considered this and it's like from a women's perspective and they're like

[00:42:50] no, we never even talk to that. It's like well if you have belly bars in the room then everybody has to stand and not every woman can stand because some of them are old and then you sit down

[00:42:59] and they're like never thought of it. Like you know they mean like conversations like that that we can bring in but we're not just there for the practical things I mean there's some like

[00:43:07] deep theological things that we can bring forth to the table that then can be considered and we will learn things too as we sit at the table so as we are wrapping up the show today

[00:43:19] what are some resources that you can share? Do you guys have any books, websites, podcasts, I only have a few. One of my misdeveloping female leaders navigate the mind fields and release

[00:43:30] the potential of women in your church by Katie Cole. I don't know that I haven't read it so I don't like to recommend books but Annie you seem to be able to recommend this one.

[00:43:43] Yes absolutely that's actually a book that a lot of our male leaders here read as well so that's a great book for developing female leaders and Katie also has a great podcast with

[00:43:54] Carrie Newhaff that I would also recommend looking at it's so great it's KADI for everyone listening so it's awesome. I love all of her resources. Do you know? No I don't. I'm sorry while you're looking at it there's another one called Half the Church

[00:44:16] by Carolyn Custis James. Again, not that we might not even agree with everything in these books but you know what? Challenges are self-sforerid on these are what people are reading and so I think

[00:44:29] sometimes I listen to stuff all the time on audio book just things that I want to devour because I want to know what the questions are in this culture but any any book recommendations, any other

[00:44:41] resources that you can think of? I also like Katie Cole. I also just love to read books on leadership generally and think it's important for women to as we start to engage more in these

[00:44:52] spaces and get in these rooms that we're learning outside of the church and bettering ourselves so I like lead like it matters by Craig Groschel. I also it's not a Christian book but I like good to

[00:45:05] great which is a great leadership book generally so yeah and I I've read a fair amount of Katie Cole. Awesome. I found the podcast. It's the care in New York Leadership Podcast episode 2,

[00:45:20] 53 Katie Cole on the new roles for men and women in the workplace and creating a culture that leverages female leaders regardless of your theology. I also really like Joe Saxon. She has a book called Ready to Rise which is just great for even

[00:45:41] exploring like okay how has because as women we have to pause and ask the questions okay if I'm going to want to be utilized and I've not necessarily even been invested in it's like how can

[00:45:52] I start investing in myself outside if my church isn't yet investing in me and start the conversations and so that's a great one today. How has God wired me so that I am ready to rise

[00:46:05] and just absolutely love Joe Saxon. Good good recommendations. Thank you for listening. Our goal with this podcast is to help you lead well through all seasons and challenges of ministry life.

[00:46:19] Lastly if there are certain topics that you'd like for us to cover on future episodes of this podcast we would love for you to email us your ideas to leadership collective podcast at gmail.com and we'll see you next time on the Leadership Collective.