Episode 107: Ashley Abercrombie on Authenticity, Vulnerability & Slowing Down

[00:00:00] Hey friends welcome back to another episode of The In No Hurry Podcast. This is your host

[00:00:13] Cole Douglas Claybourn. Happy to be back with you for a new episode and the first

[00:00:18] episode of 2024, the first episode of a new season, season five of this show which

[00:00:24] is so cool and I'm super excited for my guest this week. Have you guys ever followed anybody

[00:00:30] on social media and you just kind of have a feeling that you would jive with him if he ever got

[00:00:34] to hang out with them in person? That's sort of how I have felt about my guest this week,

[00:00:39] Ashley Abercrombie. We have followed each other for, I don't know how long on social media and

[00:00:44] I just have always enjoyed her vibe and the content that she puts out and this week we finally got

[00:00:48] a chance to sit down and talk something that I've wanted to do for a while I wanted to have her

[00:00:53] since last year sometime when we were finally able to find a time and talk. Many of you may

[00:00:58] already follow Ashley on social media or are familiar with her work but she's the author of

[00:01:03] Rise of the True Teller, own your story tell it like it is and live with Holy Gumshin

[00:01:08] and a new book that came out in 2021 called Love Is the Resistance, Learn to Disagree,

[00:01:13] Resolve the Conflicts, You've Been Avoiding and Create Real Change. But on top of writing books,

[00:01:19] she's done a ton of other things including a lot of freelance writing, she contributes to a

[00:01:23] lot of different outlets but she's worked as a pastor, a speaker and what I think is really

[00:01:28] cool is that she has also worked as a prison chaplain in the pastor and has helped lead faith-based

[00:01:34] initiatives all across the country and she talks a little bit in this episode too she's 20 years

[00:01:39] sober she's got a passion for justice she has a lot of stuff with nonprofit especially things that

[00:01:44] help women that have been victimized in the sex trafficking and sex exploitation industry so

[00:01:50] really really cool stuff that Ashley is doing but her latest book really hits on something that I

[00:01:57] am passionate about which is just advocating to live our authentic selves and being true

[00:02:03] to who we are and not feeling like we need to put a front up or not hiding things that we feel

[00:02:08] passionate about having tough conversations that we need to with grace and with dignity as Christians

[00:02:14] and just really really good stuff we talk in this about comparison we talk in this stuff about

[00:02:19] doubt and just struggles with our faith and things like that all the stuff that most Christians

[00:02:24] go through and she opens up in a really vulnerable way about some pretty intimate details about her

[00:02:31] life that I obviously very grateful that she shared on here so there's a lot in this conversation

[00:02:36] that I think you will hopefully get out and be able to have it be a benefit to your life

[00:02:43] this is a great episode to start off the new year we even talk about goals and how to start

[00:02:47] off the new year right she writes a newsletter on sub-stack called After Hours and we talk a little

[00:02:52] bit about that too and even her first one that she wrote out this year that was about goals

[00:02:57] and she explains all that I won't give too much away but she talks about goals and I know that

[00:03:01] that's a big thing that people do here in January as we started new year so excited for you guys

[00:03:06] to listen to this here is my conversation with my new friend Ashley Abercrombie

[00:03:16] well Ashley Abercrombie welcome to the show how are you? I'm doing great thank you I'm so glad

[00:03:21] to be here yeah I'm excited to talk with you I think we followed each other on social media for a

[00:03:27] while you've been on my list of people that I wanted to have on the show and I'm glad we could

[00:03:31] finally connect here to start off 2024 just what what's been your it's obviously early in the

[00:03:38] new year but what are you hoping this new year brings you just in terms of Joanne you got a lot

[00:03:45] of stuff that you care about your family and your writer things like that what do you look

[00:03:48] forward to most about this new year? Well thanks for asking that question I just finished a piece

[00:03:53] about being goals because I feel like in just got that right before we started recording literally

[00:03:59] just finishing before we recorded and I think it was about 2014 so almost a decade ago when I

[00:04:06] decided to stop making doing goals like what do I want to do? And I started asking myself who do I

[00:04:11] want to be? And that particular question has framed the way I think about years and in fact I think

[00:04:18] often when we're in the dead of winter it is just not the best time for me personally to start

[00:04:23] brand new and every time I try to set all these goals and do all these things like life happens

[00:04:28] and things change and shift and so I've made the mindset who do I want to be? What type of person

[00:04:33] do I want to become? And I'm allowing the person I'm becoming to inform the things that I'm doing

[00:04:38] and that has brought a great deal of peace to my life. It's made me more healthy it has ended

[00:04:44] my obsession with workaholism and perfectionism and all those things that kind of hinder us as

[00:04:50] creators and hinder us as people and impede on the intimacy of our relationships and so that

[00:04:56] that's my new way of thinking as being goals and so I ask those every year and you know it could

[00:05:02] be small things like walking by the river it could be making sure that I laugh with my family

[00:05:05] every day. It could be I want to share one meal a day with a person, at least one meal with a person

[00:05:11] so it's small things that I focus on throughout the year as I'm accomplishing those bigger goals

[00:05:17] that I have. I love that because I look forward to the start of a new year because I feel like it is

[00:05:22] a time to reset and I get really excited about it. And last year I was really good the first month

[00:05:28] and a half or so about I was journaling every day, I was walking every day, I was establishing all

[00:05:33] these good rhythms. I read Atomic Habits at the time so I was like doubling down on how do I establish

[00:05:39] all of these and how do I avoid the distractions? And then I realized I mean it was like one bad weather

[00:05:43] week and then I just got out of my rhythm of walking and then I didn't do it as regularly anymore

[00:05:48] and I think for me, I always feel a little bit of guilt whenever I stop a goal or like I have a

[00:05:54] checklist of things I want to do. And a lot of times it's super valuable stuff like I really want

[00:05:59] to write more, I want to be more creative, I want to have better discipline so it's all good things

[00:06:03] but I feel this almost like inherent guilt whenever I don't see them through all the way. Is that

[00:06:09] something you dealt with? And is that did that change your approach to how you and I like the

[00:06:13] comedy said the dead of winter is not really the best time for you to do that. I know a lot of people

[00:06:16] see I think August, they see August is like a second January because it's usually the start of

[00:06:20] the school year. But so what was that a problem you had too in terms of just realizing that some

[00:06:27] point the goals you said they may not happen and then did you ever feel that guilt that I was talking

[00:06:31] about and did that inform kind of this new approach you have? Oh absolutely, you know I was ridiculous.

[00:06:38] I like I would set these, I had these five areas I'm like faith, family, finances, friendship

[00:06:43] I forgot to get oh fitness, that was my other one you know. All that so we go. You know goals

[00:06:47] underneath goals underneath goals and quarter one goals and quarter two goals and annual I mean it

[00:06:52] was ridiculous like no human being on the earth could possibly hold up those standards and then I

[00:06:56] would feel the way that you're talking about I feel like man I set all these huge goals and I'm not

[00:07:01] accomplishing anything and I realized they were outsized and unrealistic and you are not just going

[00:07:06] to become a brand new person in a day like you don't go from not working out at all to working out

[00:07:11] you know seven weeks for an hour that's just it doesn't work that way we're human beings who are

[00:07:16] evolving we have to take smaller steps to sort of get to those goals and so that's why I moved from

[00:07:21] like I'm going to do this specific thing every day to rhythms of being so that way when there is

[00:07:26] like a weather week great I'm gonna be in my house I'm gonna turn on yoga with Adrian on YouTube

[00:07:31] and I'm gonna do a little bit of restorative yoga right like I can't go walk today it's dumping bucket

[00:07:35] terrain like and I'm able to shift and flow without that sense of guilt so I prefer the word rhythms

[00:07:41] over like you know things I want to do and goals I want to accomplish like it's the rhythm that I can

[00:07:46] get into that is sustainable that is life giving that feels replenishing and honestly like I don't

[00:07:52] know a single person in my life who isn't working really hard like it's not that we're not producing

[00:07:57] things and we don't have high outcomes we're not being successful in the things that we're doing

[00:08:02] and of course we're making mistakes and having failures too so I don't think we have to most people

[00:08:06] have to worry about like they're worth it ethic and accomplishing things most people actually need

[00:08:10] to set a better rhythm of rest and a better sustainable rhythm for accomplishing things so that

[00:08:16] we don't turn into like this human doing you know I just want to remind people like you're a human

[00:08:21] being you're not a human doing you are not a machine you are not created to produce produce produce

[00:08:27] and hit a goal hit a goal hit a goal hit a goal like that's not actually what we're created for

[00:08:32] yeah and so I think figuring out those rhythms that feel sustainable and refreshing to you

[00:08:37] are very very important you're speaking my language that I mean obviously the name of the show is in

[00:08:41] no hurry and that's the topic that I feel pretty one of the one of the topics I feel the most

[00:08:47] strongly about I was a high school teacher for five years and that life was just consistently

[00:08:53] it was never ending and I thought whenever I initially left journalism to become a teacher that

[00:08:58] it was going to slow down a little bit because I thought oh well be done with the workday at three

[00:09:02] o'clock and then I can relax well no my workday as a teacher didn't stop until I went to sleep

[00:09:07] and then even breaks it never stopped and so I created this show actually when I initially left

[00:09:12] teaching because I was like I need to remind myself to slow the heck down because I was coaching tennis

[00:09:18] I was the charge of the yearbook and the student newspaper and I was teaching English and it

[00:09:23] was doing everything that I could do to be back there and I was like I'm going way too fast and

[00:09:28] I'm doing way too much so when we moved cities I was like this is a great time for me to to recalibrate

[00:09:33] and so whenever I did go back into teaching I purposely didn't take on as much but I do think

[00:09:37] what you're saying is very true and that's actually the topic of the book that I'm writing now

[00:09:41] is about the topic especially as millennials we feel this incessant yes it's almost like

[00:09:48] culture created where we have to do more and a lot of times people feel it out of necessity because

[00:09:54] so many things are so expensive and so to even pay for a house or rent a lot of people feel like

[00:10:00] I've got to have a second or even third job or a side house and so if they're not doing that

[00:10:06] they're either they either feel inherently guilty or a lot of times people are just like well you're

[00:10:11] not working hard enough and it's like I could have three jobs and probably still not make as much

[00:10:15] of a difference into paying for a house as I want to so you know speaking to maybe even I'm

[00:10:23] I'm 34 so I'm a millennial and I know Jinsy is is entering into the same thing as a graduate college

[00:10:29] this idea of workaholism I think we are we are we are we are workaholics and that's just

[00:10:36] from 18 to whatever age people are retiring at we feel it but I know especially my generation

[00:10:42] the almost every teacher that I worked with had a second job whether they did it over the summer or

[00:10:46] during the school year and that's crazy I mean we're not meant to work that much so we're

[00:10:50] we're I mean what is your heart for for that I mean you mentioned having rest and finding

[00:10:54] rest for yourself I mean what message would you give to people that feel like they have to

[00:10:58] overwork or they have to do x y and z just to make ends meet and they don't really feel like

[00:11:02] they have any time to rest. This is such a good question and it's also a complex question because

[00:11:08] you know your personal context really matters here the truth is I mean there I've been in the

[00:11:13] workforce since I was a teenager and it's only been in the last decade that I feel like I've

[00:11:18] actually been able to not work multiple jobs in order to survive and in order to you know have

[00:11:23] the quality of life that I want so I want to assure people that if you are in that place for you

[00:11:29] maybe you have student debt that you have to pay back now that you have to pay it back maybe you are

[00:11:33] you know dealing with difficulties in your family maybe you have a new medical diagnosis like

[00:11:37] there's a million reasons why people need extra support and extra income or maybe you work for

[00:11:42] a nonprofit maybe you're a teacher you know all those different things um it's a personal context

[00:11:47] really really matters here but for me I think that I really had to come to a place where I realized

[00:11:52] that my worth was not deeply connected to my work and I had always created like made those two

[00:11:58] synonymous now I'm an elder millennial I'm 42 like I'm right on the cusp born in 81

[00:12:04] and so I'm like I was raised by boomers right so and not your typical boomer my mom is like

[00:12:10] really young at heart in fact she was offended when I told her she was a boomer

[00:12:15] if I've seen the thing on the internet yeah like my mom that is your age group but I think

[00:12:21] that we watched that generation you know make work their world and it was deeply connected to

[00:12:28] their sense of identity it was deeply connected to their sense of meaning and significance and

[00:12:34] they're good and bad things about that and we also watched them be able to work really hard and

[00:12:39] afford a home in their 20s and 30s and take vacations hey vacations yes by a house for like

[00:12:45] under a hundred thousand dollars and you know like they they had a whole different experience in terms

[00:12:50] gas was like a dollar you know so it was a very different world and now there was an actual dollar

[00:12:56] menu and McDonald's now it's like three dollars or whatever it is so everything is so extensive yes

[00:13:00] exactly in same at Taco Bell it's very important yeah and I think that that cost of living you know we

[00:13:07] haven't raised minimum wage in most states since 2007 when Obama raced it up to seven dollars

[00:13:12] in 25 cents like where I live in North Carolina that is still the minimum wage for even though housing

[00:13:17] has quadrupled and groceries are expensive and gas is crazy like so people really are in a struggle

[00:13:24] and so I think I would point back to the need for things that replenish you so whatever your income

[00:13:30] bracket is however many jobs that you have to have to survive and pay your bills and do the things

[00:13:35] that you need to do it is really important that you figure out what refreshes your soul what

[00:13:40] replenishes your life and if you're anything like I used to be I used to give like 120 percent to

[00:13:46] every task every person every project and I just felt like it was necessary it felt like that meant

[00:13:52] it was I was operating and working in integrity and what I discovered is that no one was asking me

[00:13:57] to do half the things I was doing I was making everything more complicated all my jobs were harder

[00:14:02] because I was adding things on top of the things that I'd been asked to do to deliver extra

[00:14:06] things because I thought that was important no one was asking me to do that no one was paying me

[00:14:10] extra to do that no one was giving me any benefits for doing that yeah so I think you figure out

[00:14:15] what replenishes you what things can you stop doing realistically and still you know be successful

[00:14:22] at the work that you're doing and then how can you build relationships that bring laughter to your

[00:14:27] life and joy and people who are with you within the hard times and people who are like yeah works

[00:14:32] really sucks today and I'm sorry that you're going through that and let me come sit on your couch

[00:14:35] for a little bit and let's grab a pizza you know like yeah you need people who can support you

[00:14:40] and I think having those three things no matter what your economic bracket is or how many jobs

[00:14:44] you have it's helpful to make you feel like your your life has meaning beyond your work

[00:14:51] and it makes you feel like you are supported and cared for as a person we all need that yeah

[00:14:57] that's great and I think this next question maybe we'll tie in a little bit to discussion about

[00:15:04] your book Rise of the Truth Teller being kind of about being our authentic self I know for me when

[00:15:10] especially when I was a teacher I was in my mid 20s when I took that job and I felt at least the

[00:15:16] first couple years that anything that I was asked to do by the administration I needed to say yes

[00:15:22] to it because I wanted to prove that I was valuable and then I realized that most young teachers

[00:15:29] feel that way and then that's how they end up getting a lot of responsibilities because all the

[00:15:33] veteran teachers are like I don't want to do that we're going to let the young people with energy

[00:15:36] then I realized after like two or three years that I there was a time I remember I tell the story

[00:15:40] quite often and I remember my wife and I were out to dinner and it was like April toward the end of

[00:15:44] the school year and I just everything that was like at the end of the school year the yearbook was

[00:15:49] about to be due we were about to take an overnight trip with the tennis team and I needed to find

[00:15:54] the hotel and like everything was just like like I like had a nervous breakdown at dinner with my

[00:15:58] wife and it was awful and so I just remember feeling the weight of everything and I was just overworked

[00:16:04] and I but I felt like I needed to keep doing more otherwise people wouldn't see me as valuable and it

[00:16:10] was completely birthed out of this insecurity and comparison that I deal with where I just I wanted

[00:16:18] to be seen as like the guy who you know was good at this and that and so in a way I felt like I was

[00:16:25] disguising my authentic self I was putting on this front of like yeah I have no problem doing all

[00:16:31] this I can do all the like I you know I just was like I was doing everything they asked me to do

[00:16:35] even though I and I had a hard time saying no and so how much of that plays into this where people

[00:16:41] feel like they have to take on more because they either are trying to prove themselves or

[00:16:47] they just feel like if they say no that they're letting people down I know some people kind of have

[00:16:52] an issue where they they feel like they don't want to say no to somebody because they don't want

[00:16:56] to put them out of their misery but really it's just making ourselves and you know more inconvenience

[00:17:00] so from that perspective I don't know if that went into your thought process with this book at all

[00:17:06] but yeah I just wanted to have you speak on that issue too. Yeah thank you you know I thank you

[00:17:10] for sharing so vulnerablely too it feels so good to be able to hear that and I I relate completely

[00:17:16] I always tell people I feel like I had a PhD in pretending you know like I knew how to show up

[00:17:21] and do all the things and I really felt like if I couldn't be the one who served the most or did

[00:17:26] the most that people wouldn't want me around or that I wouldn't bring value to the organization

[00:17:31] or to the community and it took me a very long time and I'm talking like a few decades to really

[00:17:36] realize like I'm valuable because I exist like because God created me because of who I am

[00:17:42] and not because of what I can do not because of what I produce not because of how I serve

[00:17:46] and not because of the way my work can benefit others and all of that is extremely important hear me

[00:17:52] like I love to work like I genuinely really love it but I think when you kind of a mesh your value

[00:17:59] with what you produce you begin to become someone who's like a machine my friend Harmony says all

[00:18:06] the time that we repeat what we do not repair and I really love that I quoted her in my book because

[00:18:12] I realized gosh I'm just repeating things that I have not repaired I'm repeating the need to get

[00:18:17] approval from authority figures that I didn't get it from I'm feeling the need to find my

[00:18:22] significance outside of these places because I didn't get it there and I need someone outside to

[00:18:28] validate me I need them to say that I'm good enough I need them to say that my life matters I need

[00:18:32] them to say that I'm good at what I do and I was always looking externally for validation

[00:18:38] and I want to be careful here because actually we do need encouragement and validation and assurance

[00:18:42] and relationships that's so important and in work too and in work absolutely but if you are

[00:18:49] constantly looking for it everywhere else I think that you'll live perpetually disappointed and you

[00:18:54] won't be able to find that intrinsic value that comes from existing that comes from who you are

[00:19:00] that comes from the inside of knowing that you're loved knowing that you're enough knowing that

[00:19:04] you're significant and knowing that where you're not enough like God's grace is sufficient for you

[00:19:10] and that his his powers made perfect in your weakness and so I think all of that is really important

[00:19:16] I got over the performing imperfection isn't through my recovery journey so I am now I'll be 21

[00:19:22] years sober next month that's awesome it's huge and I think that you know the first decade of

[00:19:28] that was kind of unlearning this need to be perfect in order to be loved because that is actually

[00:19:35] my deeply held belief is that being perfect means that I'll be loved and so I've had to work really

[00:19:42] hard to let that go because all of us are messy human beings and none of us are perfect and none of us

[00:19:47] you know can do all these things without eventually breaking down and so I think I had to really

[00:19:52] resolve my humanity and allow myself to be messy and allow myself to drop some balls and allow myself

[00:20:00] to not be perfect and allow myself to make mistakes and as I got into healthy relationships

[00:20:05] and communities what the recovery journey allowed me to see is that people still love me even when

[00:20:10] I wasn't perfect and people still love me when I messed up and people still love me when I made

[00:20:14] mistakes and that helps me grow and understand that that actually wasn't created for perfection

[00:20:20] that the goal is wholeness not perfection and that's how we become more authentically who we are

[00:20:26] because we can show up trusting and believing that we have value beyond perfection and that we

[00:20:32] you know because we exist and because of the communities that are a part of and because of who

[00:20:36] we are we add value where we go and that's really important to know and understand but it takes a lot

[00:20:41] of time it takes a lot of practice it takes a lot of good relationships for you to be able to know

[00:20:46] that deep in your bones yeah well thank you for sharing all that I know it may be difficult times

[00:20:52] to talk about you know your sobriety journey and things like that our pastor talks about his

[00:20:56] sobriety journey quite a bit and he's super vulnerable about it but I know that some people may not be

[00:21:02] as vulnerable and open about it but one of the notes I made about this book was that idea

[00:21:08] of exposing our messiness and our shame instead of hiding it and I just remember when I was a teacher

[00:21:15] I had some I was an English teacher and so I had some students that just they were not

[00:21:19] they were not gifted writers and they were they were not confident in their ability to write

[00:21:23] and so when they had an essay their natural inclination was to to find something that they could

[00:21:29] copy or cheat off of and turn in what they perceived to be a good piece of work

[00:21:34] and what I always told my students was that look I don't care how good or bad of a writer you are

[00:21:40] I just want to read your authentic voice because I can't assess you if it's not really you and I

[00:21:45] know like right now chat GPT is this thing is they're using it I don't know how I would react to

[00:21:50] it if I was a teacher but I told students that I would rather them turn in their self-created

[00:21:56] work if they felt like it was D or F or whatever level then find something that was you know

[00:22:01] I can tell when it's not their voice and so I felt like there was a metaphor there where

[00:22:07] that's kind of how I want to approach my life and how I would really want anybody to approach

[00:22:12] their life because if somebody that I'm friends with or or family with or whatever just in some kind

[00:22:17] of a relationship or connection with I would want them to always be bringing their genuine self even

[00:22:23] if there's shame and messiness there that they're not proud of what message would you have in

[00:22:29] that regard as well and how I know that for some people that may be uncomfortable that may not be

[00:22:35] as easy to do so that for those folks where they just they really have deep seated shame for

[00:22:41] for whatever and maybe that comes from the church I know some people have really bad experiences

[00:22:45] in the church and they're younger I don't know what people's stories are but

[00:22:50] to me my my thought is always to be fully loved you have to be fully known

[00:22:55] and I think like when I when I got married that was one of the lessons that I learned the

[00:23:02] most about God where it's like if you were you can't hide anything from your spouse and if you do

[00:23:07] you're going to feel the guilt about it but whenever you are fully known by that person it's like

[00:23:11] that torn well song fully known and loved by you and it's like that's truly what the love of

[00:23:16] Christ is and so I feel like that that is a message that you're bringing in this book I would assume

[00:23:22] is what your heart was too I mean what what can you speak to in that in that sense about just

[00:23:28] being willing to be vulnerable about the messiness and shame that we might feel about different

[00:23:33] things that we have in our life what a beautiful question so you know Mike Foster says that we learn

[00:23:39] love from people who do not love us yeah and so we're raised in different environments where we

[00:23:45] have all these unique experiences and we experience like true love where we are cared for and nurtured

[00:23:52] and encouraged and then we also have these experiences that could rain you know range the gamut from

[00:23:57] severe abuse to neglect to to you know just being disregarded or for your dreams not to matter

[00:24:02] or your parents trying to shape you into who they think you ought to be instead of who you naturally are

[00:24:07] you receive that at home you receive that in school you receive that on your job if you were part

[00:24:11] of a faith community growing up you receive it there if you spent time at the YMCA with your coaches

[00:24:16] like you know if you were involved in sports like all these kind of adults and communities are shaping

[00:24:21] what you think is good what you think is valuable what you should be ashamed of what you

[00:24:26] shouldn't be ashamed of and so all of us come to adulthood with that kind of goodness and baggage

[00:24:32] and we have to sort out like what kind of things did I just inherent because somebody else told me

[00:24:38] that this thing is bad and maybe it's not bad maybe it's just being human you know I remember

[00:24:43] going up like I wasn't allowed to be angry like nice southern girls don't get angry the problem

[00:24:48] is like I'm a fiery redhead who gets pissed off some people like I needed to learn as an adult

[00:24:54] that actually anger is a normal emotion and it's perfectly fine to have it you just have to know what

[00:24:58] to do with it and you have to know how to navigate it but I would stuff it down and suppress it

[00:25:02] and try to make it go away because nice southern girls don't get angry and so I had to learn

[00:25:07] that it isn't a shameful thing to be mad and that actually some things are worth being mad about

[00:25:12] and it's okay to have that emotion you know had to unlearn some things around you know sexuality

[00:25:18] because I was I was abused and went through some very difficult circumstances and so I had to

[00:25:22] learn that I didn't need to be ashamed of the things that I was victim of I didn't cause them

[00:25:27] I didn't create the situation I didn't cause it to happen and so what do I have to be ashamed

[00:25:31] of the person who did the thing needs to be ashamed not me I was innocent victim and so I had

[00:25:37] to unlearn the shame of that and how you do that is challenging you know I like the term in the

[00:25:43] social services sector wraparound support because I really think when you're trying to overcome

[00:25:48] shame whether it's you know from little T trauma or big T trauma I think that part of you know

[00:25:55] overcoming shame you need a lot of services around you you might need to go get some professional

[00:25:59] therapy you might be like me I need to be in recovery groups in order to be successful in your

[00:26:04] sobriety you also need good friends you might need a faith community that can support you on your

[00:26:09] journey and all of that especially when you come from a different all background is discerning

[00:26:14] who is a safe person that I can trust and who is a safe person that I can open up my life to

[00:26:21] and you're probably going to try and then have to realize that didn't work out so good and I'm

[00:26:26] going to pull back and I'm going to try with this person who feels safe like it's it's a bunch

[00:26:30] of learning it's messy it's not straightforward it's not you know easy but it's worth taking the

[00:26:36] risk to be vulnerable with some people it's worth taking the risk to trust that some people are

[00:26:41] going to help carry you through that difficulty and help you learn to not be ashamed of your humanity

[00:26:47] and to not be ashamed of your experiences and all of us have passed I don't care if you had two

[00:26:52] of the best parents on the earth it doesn't mean that you're exempt from issues problems in pain

[00:26:57] that is the human condition yeah and so we need to be set free from thinking that we're supposed

[00:27:03] to be these perfect little human beings who arrive at this place of a foray and we have no issues

[00:27:08] problems or pain that isn't real black yeah and so it's it's a process it takes a lot of support

[00:27:14] it might take some professional services takes good friendships it takes good community

[00:27:18] and that takes a while to develop and a lot of people give up during that time of developing

[00:27:23] that a lot of people relapse if you have a background of addiction during that time because it can

[00:27:28] feel very isolating and lonely to have to rebuild that and have to try and have to trust but I'm telling

[00:27:33] you 21 years later that is so worth it it is worth the risk even when you get it wrong

[00:27:39] and even when you trust someone who wasn't worthy of your trust it's worth it to do it again it's

[00:27:43] worth it to try again it's worth it to laugh again because we need that in order to be well we need

[00:27:48] that in order to be whole we need that in order to show up in our own life with some strength

[00:27:53] and some courage like you have to do this hard work it's worth it well thank you so much for sharing

[00:27:59] that again I mean you have quite quite a story with with a lot of different layers to it that

[00:28:05] experiences that I could never imagine until I really appreciate you sharing all that

[00:28:10] with this book in particular and I guess any of them that you've written what are you

[00:28:13] or you touched on these topics I mean how cathartic has that been for you to write through that

[00:28:18] because I know us as writers that's what we do is we write we write our emotions I know not

[00:28:23] that not everybody is capable or comfortable with doing that but obviously you speak about it

[00:28:30] you know fluently but how was how was that to write about it how cathartic was that for you

[00:28:35] it is very cathartic yeah you know I love I love the first round draft where you are you know not

[00:28:42] editing as a writer I'd like to separate my creator and my my creator writer and my editor because

[00:28:47] if you try to sit down as a creator and create but you've got like this editor sitting on your shoulder

[00:28:53] telling you what's good and bad and how you should change things and what you should do you have to

[00:28:57] kind of put that away for a little bit and just like flow and I think when I do that I I discover

[00:29:03] memories that I forgot I discover lessons that I want to remember I discover that the experiences

[00:29:10] I had in my life are actually of benefits to others and for me that means that the pain that

[00:29:16] I went through is not in vain and so it's cathartic on a few levels like not only just getting it out

[00:29:20] because it feels good to get it out it feels good to bear witness to your memories and to your life

[00:29:26] and to the things that you've watched through and it feels good to let other people bear witness

[00:29:31] to the pain of your life to the joy of your life to the lessons of your life because it's strengthens

[00:29:36] other people and I really love when people get to read something and go man I thought I was the only

[00:29:42] one but I'm not I love when people can read something and feel less alone and feel less crazy

[00:29:48] and feel normalized for being a human yeah and I hope that my work does that for people because

[00:29:55] that really matters to me so how do you go just this is kind of a question about the writing process

[00:30:01] because like for me I'm a journalist instead of the the process is much quicker from idea to

[00:30:08] the final result of an article a book is very different and the process still of creating what

[00:30:15] I hope will be my first one and it's been years in the working in the working because it's just

[00:30:19] a long process and it's a lot of times I have found especially in the Christian space there's just

[00:30:23] a lot of unknown you get told a lot of times like oh you have to have a big platform or this and that

[00:30:29] and this and that we could I mean we could get into a whole other topic about that but it is

[00:30:34] it's a lot to go from you have this idea to do people actually want to hear this to am I the right

[00:30:41] person to say to some of this I believe is doubt that the enemy puts in our head like oh am I

[00:30:46] really the best person to say this what what am I qualified this is some of the battles that I've

[00:30:51] had to like why am I qualified to say this there's already a book about this what am I going to say

[00:30:55] that's different when you when you've had an idea how have you gone from idea to to getting it

[00:31:02] on paper to then writing it to seeing it through and not allowing any distractions to hinder you

[00:31:09] and it seems like from a little bit I've gathered from this conversation you you you have good

[00:31:13] discipline you're able to find time to work so what does that rhythm look like for you and how do

[00:31:17] you how do you make sure that the idea you have actually sees the light of day okay such a good

[00:31:24] question all right so two things I think that the first one is I make my peace with there's nothing

[00:31:31] new under the sun and here's what I mean by that is that I'm not going to have nor is anyone else

[00:31:36] going to have some profound revelation unless maybe you're a scientist like I'm gonna have some

[00:31:41] profound revelation about some truth that only I could think of like that's not true everything

[00:31:47] good is universal and so we tap into the universal truths and we tap into the universal experiences

[00:31:54] of humans from our unique lens and so that's actually what we bring to the table I'm not going to come

[00:31:59] up with some revolutionary idea that no one's talked about before but that doesn't mean that I don't

[00:32:04] have or that you don't have or that anyone listening doesn't have a unique angle on that particular

[00:32:09] thing and so I think that's what you have to find as a creator and a writer it's not am I worthy of

[00:32:14] writing this or should it be written because it's already been written those are not the questions

[00:32:18] it's I have a unique angle what is my take and how can I express my angle and my version of this

[00:32:26] unique universal truth that I see and I think that's what's really important when it comes to creation

[00:32:32] and when it comes to idea into like implementation like I think often about ideas in bits and chunks

[00:32:38] like I want to think about okay I have this great idea about a book and believe me my title changed

[00:32:43] like 52 times I actually thought the book proposal for anyone who might be writing one was

[00:32:47] harder than actually writing the book it's just so difficult to put down like your hook statement

[00:32:52] and that exact like one big idea and then to break it out into your chapters it's all challenging

[00:32:58] but at the same time I think that you know the the book idea you have to figure out does this have

[00:33:03] legs on it like is it just an essay let me write an essay and see what that feels like okay actually

[00:33:09] it is an essay but there's more here or like I can tease this out six different ways and then

[00:33:13] you start to do that and then you start to find other tendrils and then you start to think about

[00:33:16] stories and stories from history and stories from your personal life and you just begin to sort of

[00:33:21] tease that thing out until it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and I think once you do that you can

[00:33:25] discover if you have a book and of course platform and all of that plays into it there are a lot

[00:33:30] of books that get published particularly in the Christian world that are not good books they're not

[00:33:35] good they got published because somebody's a big pastor or they have a giant platform but the

[00:33:40] writing is a good and honestly it probably should have just been a 50 minute message and not like

[00:33:45] a 400 page book and so I just know that like you can't control any of those things like platform

[00:33:52] how much money goes behind the book that you get pushed out there how much marketing goes behind

[00:33:56] your book like you don't get to control any of those things but you do get to control what your work

[00:34:00] is and what it says and what your idea is and how you tease that out and how you flesh that out for

[00:34:05] people who are going to be reading and my discipline looks like weekly writing so I write once a

[00:34:11] week for pleasure I not for anybody who will read it I write for myself like once a week I love doing

[00:34:17] that and then I write long form once a week for my my email audience like I write for them

[00:34:22] because I love doing that and I love long form writing and then I sometimes do some social media

[00:34:27] chunks I'm in a zone right now where I just am a little bit done with social media and it's getting

[00:34:31] on my nerves I don't want to fall with it and right now I don't have to so yeah feels good to my soul

[00:34:37] I'm so where I was then I would think at the beginning of a week either a Sunday or a Monday I'd

[00:34:41] sit down and plot out what do I want to talk about this week and how what are those mini captions

[00:34:45] going to look like and where are they going to go and so I have had you know I have Google sheets

[00:34:49] that I worked with and all these different places where I could kind of take that long form idea

[00:34:53] that I write once a week and break that down into smaller chunks for the internet like

[00:34:57] such lots of ways you can think about ideas and obviously I'm talking about you know books

[00:35:01] and social media I mean I recognize I've just said a whole chunk of things but it does take you

[00:35:06] know just sit button seat that's what Anne Lamott says just get your button seat and just write

[00:35:11] and you know if the page is blank who cares like I don't believe in writer's block I think you just

[00:35:15] start putting words on a page and if you don't like them that's fine you don't have to like the words

[00:35:19] just get the words on the page and all good rating is just rewriting but if you don't have anything

[00:35:24] to rewrite you know you can't make your writing that so just get in the seat and do it yeah

[00:35:30] that's all that's all good stuff I mean I just think of my own experience it's just tough to like

[00:35:35] I definitely live in the space of where I feel like there's an editor on the other shoulder

[00:35:40] and it's like well I don't want to write this if I'm gonna just have to redo it and

[00:35:45] and it's it's it's just a like I said my my background is in journalistic writing and it's

[00:35:52] just different to go the long form route I would I would love to at some point write a fiction story

[00:35:58] but I'm like I don't know if I ever will have the patience or ability to sit down and do that where

[00:36:04] I'm coming up with the story all on my own I have so much respect for fiction writers because

[00:36:09] especially the ones who are so good at storytelling I mean it is crazy like it's one thing to recount

[00:36:14] your own story but and I know a lot of times they are informed by personal experiences but still

[00:36:20] that's pretty awesome it is build a world is not a small thing no not at all I try to do that in like

[00:36:26] you know computer games or whatever and use an imagination that way but not the same as right

[00:36:30] right it was very different so your your newest book I believe this is your newest book love

[00:36:36] is the resistance this came out in 2021 learn to disagree resolve the conflicts you've been avoiding

[00:36:42] and create real change I think that this thinking about the current cultural moment that we find

[00:36:50] ourselves in this is such a necessary book and I think you know we think about even just you

[00:36:58] talked about your not on social media right now and I wish that I could quit it I really do because

[00:37:03] especially not even just the politics of it aside I have found Twitter to be just a much less fun

[00:37:09] platform yeah as a journalist it was always my favorite one because I was able to deliver and also

[00:37:16] find news quicker yeah I used to have tweet deck I don't know if you've ever used tweet deck okay well

[00:37:23] Elon shut that down so I no longer can use tweet deck I hate the desktop version of Twitter

[00:37:29] so I if I really audited I bet you I have I'm tweeting at least 50% less than I was just two years ago

[00:37:37] so it's the social media there's good and bad of it but it is it can really I think Twitter for

[00:37:43] me has been the most vitriolic last year last year I quoted a very popular conservative radio

[00:37:54] hawk show guy and he made a comment this is this was after the football player nearly died on the field

[00:38:02] and if you recall this and there was you know there was a lot of different takes about this

[00:38:07] and I don't remember exactly what what I said I think he was arguing for football to continue

[00:38:12] being a violent sport and I was like this feels like a weird take after somebody almost died on

[00:38:17] the field yeah and it was like him then he quoted me to his million followers or whatever

[00:38:23] and then my mentions were just obliterated by all of his followers and it was like holy cow I do not

[00:38:29] even want to be anywhere near social media right now it is an awful place sometimes there's very good

[00:38:34] things but there's also bad things but I think even as Christians my buddy Dan Darling wrote a book

[00:38:39] about kind of a similar topic a few years ago basically about how do we use our words for good

[00:38:43] online as Christians and I struggle with it I've gotten into a lot of spats with people

[00:38:49] but about trivial things like sports but also politics mean obviously we had a pandemic and then

[00:38:55] a contentious presidential election that brought out a lot of things where did your heart for this idea

[00:39:00] come from was there a specific instance or just a collection of instances why was this topic on

[00:39:06] your heart at this time okay man you said so many good things I have a tendency to ask really

[00:39:13] long questions and I love it it's great it feels like a conversation and I appreciate it um you know

[00:39:19] love is the resistance was born out of you know the 2020 like I was writing it during 2020

[00:39:25] I was pregnant with our third child and we were home stuck in Los Angeles which had the

[00:39:32] strictest lockdown in the nation we were down for two years schools were closed for 18 months

[00:39:36] and I was just watching left and right as a person who came out of a nonprofit ministry background

[00:39:41] like watching the church just look so embarrassing I mean I felt so embarrassed and I recognize

[00:39:48] living in cities like Los Angeles and New York where we used to live I don't have the luxury

[00:39:53] to live in a little Christian bubble if I want to be relevant and connected to the people around me

[00:39:59] to the people who are part of my faith community I don't have the luxury to start accusing everybody's

[00:40:03] lifestyle and legislating my morality on top of them like that's not what you can do in those

[00:40:08] big cities because it just doesn't work it's not effective and also it's not loving it's unkind

[00:40:14] and so I was watching the church just act a fool and it really felt like a letter like I felt

[00:40:19] like I was writing a letter to the church and in some ways it was received in some ways it wasn't

[00:40:24] I had a very similar experience on Twitter right after my book came out with a female conservative

[00:40:30] you know podcast person and she did the same thing she retweeted something that I said and

[00:40:36] you know I had thousands and thousands of mentions and I like I had to take my Twitter private it was

[00:40:40] so bad they went over to my Instagram like it was terrible and I was like I wanted to but I was

[00:40:45] verified at the time and I do I would lose my verify mark if I did that then it got taken away

[00:40:50] anyways yeah because the way they change everything yeah I'm not gonna pay eight dollars to have a

[00:40:55] check no nobody is no thanks yeah I think that writing that book really felt like hey will you wake

[00:41:02] up like will you stop meshing politics with faith and will you stop being so and loving and

[00:41:08] calling it Christlike will you stop being so disrespectful to people who don't look like you vote

[00:41:13] like you think like you act like you I just got so exhausted of the church not practicing

[00:41:20] neighborliness not practicing the thing that we are called and created to practice um and I was

[00:41:26] frustrated and angry and I think there are times in the book where that comes across um that I'm

[00:41:30] that I'm feeling frustrated and angry and I have hope for the church I'm still a part of a local

[00:41:35] church I still um I still love it not only for my sobriety and my sanity but because I still believe

[00:41:41] in it you know as as wild and crazy as the church is I still believe in it um and I think that we

[00:41:46] have a real capacity to gather and do good and to gather and create a space where people can feel

[00:41:51] loved and included and when I don't see that happen I get really mad and so that book was an offering

[00:41:59] like hey here's how we can stop being passive aggressive here's how we can stop making sideways

[00:42:04] comments about everybody here's how we can really embrace our neighbor here's how we can practice the

[00:42:10] spiritual discipline of enemy love like Christ doesn't just cause to love he calls us to to love

[00:42:14] even our enemies like he pushes it that far for us and I felt like so many Christians in this digital

[00:42:20] age and in this digital bubble are going on the internet and saying all kinds of crazy things they would

[00:42:25] never say in real life because somebody would beat them in the streets like you just can't talk

[00:42:28] like that to normal people like you cannot do that like if we were face to face it would never happen

[00:42:33] yeah and some people are forgetting that the things they do in public really matter and that our

[00:42:39] love has to bear witness to something in public and in private and I want that for the church and so

[00:42:44] that book felt like an offering for us to do better frankly do you think the people in your

[00:42:50] mentions recognized the irony of the fact that they were ripping you on the internet and the whole

[00:42:57] premise of the idea of your book is like hey let's not do this and then they completely miss it

[00:43:03] and I would venture to guess based on my experience with this many of those people probably had

[00:43:09] a Bible verse or some reference to God in the Bible and I hate to use I mean it's such a trope

[00:43:15] but it's so true that it's true you know they always have like you know the John 316 you know

[00:43:22] like all the all the typical like standard popular verses in their profile or whatever it's like

[00:43:29] you know patriot dad American godfaring forever you know it's like you just cussed me out bro

[00:43:36] like what are you talking about yeah I'm not saying I'm perfect and don't act a fool in the internet

[00:43:43] sometimes too but like if you're gonna advertise that you are a Christian maybe let's act like it

[00:43:49] so I said I said this up to ask too I mean you mentioned that you took your Twitter private

[00:43:56] did you engage with any of these people how do you respond to these comments because at some

[00:44:01] point like it is overwhelming and you can't but like you may catch a few comments that are just like

[00:44:07] okay I have to clap back at this person yeah and and but then you feel like well now I'm gonna

[00:44:13] open myself to even more ridicule I mean like people were like screenshotting like my profile picture

[00:44:18] and making fun of the fact that where glasses and like yeah yeah yeah I'm just like are we too they

[00:44:24] caught they're calling me ugly saying all kinds of things about my hair like it was ridiculous so

[00:44:27] yes how do you how do you respond I guess just internally like keep your sanity but then like

[00:44:34] if you outwardly ever choose to respond how do you respond because there's a tension of

[00:44:41] I really want to put this person in their place but also I want to I want to stand up for what the

[00:44:47] book is about and not be you know not fall into the trap so how did you handle all of that

[00:44:53] so it depends like case by case I will say that now I just don't engage like I don't care

[00:44:57] you know every now and then I might say something back but it's really quicky and quick and it's

[00:45:01] not a big deal and I will not go back and forth like I just as a practice I don't but I used to

[00:45:07] especially back like 2019 2020 2021 I actually thought like we could go back and forth and be

[00:45:12] civil and it might make a difference and I very quickly realized that no it doesn't make a difference

[00:45:18] and these folks are inter like arguing on the internet for sport like they're not doing this because

[00:45:22] they want to grow and it's always an it's usually an anonymous account too they got like a frog

[00:45:26] is that picture or something yes or even if if it's not anonymous then they just want to fight you know

[00:45:31] like it's they actually have no interest in changing and I write a story in that book levisa

[00:45:38] resistance about a very popular conservative commentator who decided to invite on someone who's

[00:45:44] who's a very liberal commentator and they had this um conversation about Black Lives Matter

[00:45:50] and in that conversation like I had a great deal I watched it because I thought well maybe

[00:45:54] maybe there's just some middle of the road things here that they could talk about

[00:45:58] and it just never happened like she shredded him at every point every every time he tried to talk

[00:46:04] she had a rebuttal she had something she wanted to say back to him like she never just listened

[00:46:09] to hear and understand and that's when I realized like actually some people just don't want to

[00:46:14] understand they are making their living they are making their energy and time is going to do this

[00:46:20] just because they want to do it and some people are making profits off of that like that

[00:46:24] particular person and it's worth their time to be this way and then other people are just mimicking

[00:46:29] and parroting those people who are profiting um and so I think that you know arguing on the internet

[00:46:35] is a complete waste of time I don't have the energy for it I'm like if you want to talk in the street

[00:46:39] let's talk in the street like we'll do business together um and watch out because I'm six foot two

[00:46:43] so you better come correct you know what I mean like I'm not here to play like let's go like that's

[00:46:48] more my attitude now like I just want to take it old school and be like okay let's have a real

[00:46:52] dialogue or not at all yeah um and even with the conservative person who was retweeting and I'm

[00:46:57] not dig I'm not digging on conservatives by the way I don't really care if you're Republican or

[00:47:01] Democrat like I respect people on both sides of the aisle I have family and friends who are on both

[00:47:04] sides of the aisle and I love them I'm talking about the extremes of either end where you're just like

[00:47:10] spouting off without real reason and without real logic but I think that that back and forth

[00:47:16] exchange that I had with that gal by the end of it she was like I want you to come on my podcast

[00:47:20] and like I'm having a baby in three weeks like I don't want to come on your dumb podcast you know so

[00:47:25] what why just argue you just shredded me for an hour and now you want me to come talk nicely

[00:47:31] on your podcast all right yeah we're not doing that just so you can say you had someone who thinks

[00:47:35] differently on there no because you don't really want to change and you don't really want to dialogue

[00:47:38] do you know what I mean like yeah I think we need to be formed by one another like if you and I

[00:47:44] disagree about something and I'm willing to listen you're willing to share and you're willing to

[00:47:47] listen I'm willing to share are the way we see the world should should touch each other it should

[00:47:53] form one another we should be able to leave with a new perspective and a new thought and a new idea

[00:47:58] and a new understanding of how someone else moves through the world and so I've recognized that

[00:48:04] people on the internet don't want to do that and so I'm not interested in wasting my time anymore

[00:48:08] yeah I love that I what's really sad is last January whenever I was you know I was mentioned

[00:48:15] I was journaling every day I was walking every day and one of my one of my goals was I'm not

[00:48:19] going to be on Twitter at all in January like that was a legitimate goal but it's tough because as

[00:48:25] a journalist that that is a way that I often find sources and as a writer it's a lot of times

[00:48:30] the way to promote my podcast or my writing my newsletter things like that so it's like that's

[00:48:35] there's a trade-off and I think it was like one of the first few days of January when that incident

[00:48:41] happened with the football player and I was like I looked at my wife and I was like I'm sorry but

[00:48:46] I've got to see what people are saying on Twitter like this is a major moment I have to

[00:48:50] and then it just stuck me back in and so I didn't ever take time off the best I've ever done was

[00:48:56] I went one month with turning notifications off that was but I and it's like holy crap I'm so

[00:49:01] reliant on this when you've taken any time off from social media and I probably know the answer

[00:49:06] to this because I've never heard anybody say that they regretted taking time off but what is that

[00:49:10] done for your sanity what is did you miss it at all like what is what has been your experience

[00:49:15] whenever you've taken any time away from social media or at least limited it in some fashion such a

[00:49:21] good question all right so it's twofold and I'm going to be super honest here like the good news is

[00:49:27] like I noticed that my energy is better my experience throughout the day is better like I feel better

[00:49:33] in my body I feel more mindful and more conscious and more present where I am the bad news is like

[00:49:39] I had to build as you know yourself when wanting to become an author I had to build a platform in

[00:49:43] order to be published and so you know if you're not active all the time you lose what you built

[00:49:48] you know that's just how it goes and so I think there have been times over the last year where I've

[00:49:53] been like oh man I worked so hard to build this thing and to watch it sometimes you know

[00:49:58] um unfalows or numbers changing or stats changing I've had to just make my peace with it for now

[00:50:04] um because you can always grow and you can always change but I think there is a real loss there where

[00:50:08] you're like oh man so it's that that part of it that's not that important but is important to

[00:50:13] my past in the person that I was and then the other layer of that is that I realized oh my gosh

[00:50:18] some of the relationships that I thought we were close and connected I realized with

[00:50:22] our social media we're actually not we don't talk we don't end up texting each other we don't

[00:50:26] have any connection points outside of like seeing each other in the DMs or you know going back and forth

[00:50:31] and so that was an interesting experience too but also a good formative one where I realized like okay

[00:50:36] some of these relationships exist just in this space and I need to be okay with that yeah

[00:50:41] um so yeah it's been interesting overall I haven't regretted it and I'm super grateful for the

[00:50:47] ways it's made me better to not be so digitally connected but that human side of me also

[00:50:53] recognizes that there's some grief and loss in that as well how do you experience any

[00:50:57] phomo like you just worried that you're missing out on anything no no no I'm an introvert I never

[00:51:02] worry about anything like nope I don't care if you hang out without me that's totally cool with me

[00:51:08] I wish that I it's not so much that I like want to be noticed it's just like sometimes I just

[00:51:13] want to be part of the conversation or just be aware of what's coming on but it has been made

[00:51:17] easier now where I really I genuinely don't enjoy Twitter like I had this conversation on New

[00:51:24] Year's Eve somebody I was at dinner and I was just like look I'm not even trying to make a

[00:51:28] political statement it just is it is not as fun anymore like the usability of it is just not good

[00:51:34] yep I agree with that not fun I have to use the desktop and then it's like I'm used to my feed

[00:51:41] just like constantly scrolling like I'm a huge baseball fan and back in December they always have

[00:51:47] the winter meetings where there's always a lot of like trades and free agent signings and things

[00:51:51] like that and I used to have a column where I would just watch all these updates come through

[00:51:55] and I realized I was like I'm missing so many things because I'm not seeing it the way that I'm used

[00:51:59] to and yeah so I would have I don't really spend much time on Instagram to be honest with you I

[00:52:04] just don't really I don't sit there and scroll I don't care to see people's pictures no offense to

[00:52:08] people is I just don't care like if I log on and I see it there I will like it but I probably

[00:52:13] spend less than three minutes a day on Instagram seriously like I will spend much more time

[00:52:19] just watching stupid videos on TikTok instead oh TikTok is not much better but it is there's

[00:52:24] there's some love to be honest I love it there's some really funny stuff and really creative so I

[00:52:29] used to think it was stupid but like like most people I downloaded it during COVID because I was

[00:52:33] like well I need something to keep me entertained and I've kept it since but yeah so I don't

[00:52:39] Facebook I don't really spend any time on I used to post like a status a day and when I was in

[00:52:44] college and I was like super passionate about sports topics I would always post some like

[00:52:50] not in flamatory but just some kind of a status that I knew would cause a discussion

[00:52:56] gotten wiser I don't do any of that now but it was like I realized over the years my my

[00:53:01] reliance on social media has fluctuated and now it's I think it's probably the least it's been

[00:53:08] which is good but it is a necessary thing as writers and generally than people that have to

[00:53:12] promote it so unfortunately that's that's an aspect of it. It is. Well one of the final questions

[00:53:19] I love to ask my guest the show is called In No Hurry I love on your website you said you guys

[00:53:25] live near River in North Carolina so you can calm the hell down and chill the hell out and I feel

[00:53:31] like if I could put a tagline on the show that is what it would be is everybody let's just calm

[00:53:36] the hell down and chill the hell out. So I know we talked about this the beginning of the show

[00:53:41] a little bit just about being in a hurry and resting but I didn't notice too you said one of your

[00:53:46] favorite things is drinking fancy waters I have my La Croix with me here. But what are some things

[00:53:51] you do to slow down and just chill you've got a family and you want to make sure that you're not

[00:53:57] getting overworked so I know we talked about this issue earlier but just personally what are your

[00:54:01] go to rhythms or hobbies to chill the hell out and calm calm the hell down and chill the hell out.

[00:54:10] Okay I have a couple my plants I became a plant mom in 2020 after killing everything I ever

[00:54:15] kept in my house and so I have like 25. That's a big moment. It is yeah so I have a lot of plants

[00:54:21] and watering them honestly just makes me slow down and I can't do anything else while I'm watering

[00:54:26] I have to focus on the exact amount of water I'm giving them. So plants walking by the river is one

[00:54:31] of my favorite new things to do now that we relocated to North Carolina I also like to put my feet in

[00:54:35] the grass outside whether it's colder it's warm it's a grounding technique that you can use

[00:54:40] if you feel like your just your body spinning out of control your nervous systems on tilt or you

[00:54:44] feel like man I cannot ground myself in reality like I can't be present just go outside and put

[00:54:50] feet in the grass like there's something about it that just roots you down and then the other when

[00:54:54] I do well two more reading I read so much fiction and then the other one is I do a lot of restorative

[00:55:00] yoga practices so lots of stretching again things that calm the nervous system are really really good

[00:55:07] for me personally so those are a few things I do. Have you heard the the Gen Z phrase where they

[00:55:13] like if somebody's just being an idiot it'll say go touch grass have you heard this

[00:55:18] this is like a comeback but it is like and what's funny is I learned that phrase through a bin

[00:55:26] rector video on TikTok where this guy was this guy was interviewing him and they were like he was

[00:55:31] like I'm gonna quiz you on some Gen Z phrases and see if you know what they mean and it was you

[00:55:36] know like bet and snatched and like other phrases that these kids say and the guy said touch grass

[00:55:45] Riz was another one like yeah but he was like he was like actually touch grass is pretty wise it

[00:55:52] means like literally go outside and touch like you're too online right now so go outside and do

[00:55:56] something but there's actually apparently a scientific reason for it literally go touch grass because

[00:56:02] it's literally grounding technique that's hilarious these kids are wider than we realize maybe

[00:56:07] I don't know so you didn't knew that this uh that was part of it but that's that's hilarious

[00:56:12] they're brilliant well I know you have a newsletter which I'm a subscriber of and then

[00:56:20] I usually ask people to say what their social media handles are but if you're not

[00:56:24] I mean maybe you still want to share that but where are the best ways that people can connect with

[00:56:29] to you if they want to continue following you and checking out your work yeah so I write on

[00:56:33] substack once a week at after hours and I love that that's my favorite place to be on the internet

[00:56:39] and then I'm sometimes on Instagram and threads at ash abacrombie um and I'm sure I'll be back at some

[00:56:45] point on a more regular basis but I'm enjoying the time away what has been your take on threads I tried

[00:56:50] it and I just haven't I haven't I kind of forget that I have it on my phone if I'm being honest

[00:56:56] but it's funny I get all these notifications of like sound so followed you on thread so and so

[00:57:01] just joined threads that bubble about somebody and I'm like I just never think to get on there

[00:57:06] and it's like it's it's very similar to twitter it's less vitriolic than twitter

[00:57:11] I've tried a couple of what was the other one clubhouse I tried clubhouse for a while

[00:57:16] it's just there's things that don't take off so what has been your take on thread so far

[00:57:20] so at the end of last year there was this really fun like um women supporting women movement

[00:57:27] that went through and like all of us grew like at least a thousand followers in like two days

[00:57:32] and so there was this beautiful movement and it's still happening where women are just connecting

[00:57:36] with one another and there's loads of writers on there and authors is happening for men too but there

[00:57:40] was this very specific moment in time at the end of last year and I just felt like oh this is

[00:57:45] why I joined the internet I wanted it to feel like a neighborhood I wanted it to feel supportive

[00:57:49] so now anytime anybody posts anything like I just some responding back and they're responding

[00:57:53] back I love your new plant I really congratulations on your sobriety so glad about your book like a lot

[00:57:58] of that is happening and I'm loving it and there are moments where people from the twitter feed get

[00:58:03] through the threads because they're all coming over now um and they are talking all kinds of crazy

[00:58:08] that they usually do and it's just a lot easier to sort of like mute and unfollow and not deal with

[00:58:12] that so I feel like I've created a thread I love and it feels like old school twitter and instagram

[00:58:18] how to baby and I'm here for it yeah well I need to give it I need to give more of a chance because

[00:58:22] I think it's a good it's a good place to promote the show and you know my newsletter which

[00:58:29] I got out of a rhythm of writing right I used to write a newsletter every week for the first like

[00:58:33] two years that I started it and it was basically like a devotional and I was like really I mean

[00:58:38] it was all original stuff and I part of it was stuff that I had written for for the book idea

[00:58:43] and some of it is stuff that I hoped would be coming to book but I need to get back into that more

[00:58:47] regular because I have a sub stack as well I really like the platform of sub stack it's like

[00:58:52] very clean in fact I oftentimes I have a website but I don't I found myself I don't really

[00:58:57] write on there as much because it's WordPress and it's just kind of clanky it's I don't I don't

[00:59:02] like it as much um I've wanted to redesign it but don't have the time to do that so uh sub stack is

[00:59:08] the is the spot right now it is well Ashley thanks so much for joining me this is this is a lot of fun

[00:59:14] appreciate you coming on especially being vulnerable about a lot of the topics we talked about

[00:59:18] there was more that we could get into but maybe for a future conversation

[00:59:24] we'll be in that thank you for joining me don't lovely thank you thank you

[00:59:32] well thanks so much to Ashley for joining me this week on InnoHurry I hope you guys

[00:59:36] enjoyed that conversation and again I'm just so impressed with her and super grateful that she

[00:59:42] felt comfortable to be so vulnerable about a lot of her story I know she's got a lot of

[00:59:47] very difficult things that are part of her story that she is talked freely about in her books but

[00:59:52] obviously super grateful that she brought that to this conversation as well I know she mentioned

[00:59:56] that she's taking a little bit of a break from social media but nonetheless I do highly recommend

[01:00:01] that you give her a follow she mentioned her channels right before the end of the conversation but

[01:00:06] you can also check the show notes and the links to her social media as well as her website and

[01:00:11] newsletter will be in the show notes and speaking of sub stack newsletters you've heard me talk about

[01:00:17] it before but I would love for you to subscribe to my sub stack newsletter the road ahead one of my

[01:00:22] goals this year is to be more consistent in writing in that like I was a few years ago if you

[01:00:28] have subscribed for a while I used to do weekly devotionals hopefully I can get back to somewhat

[01:00:32] of a regular rhythm like that so please be sure to subscribe to that and if you are not already

[01:00:37] subscribed to the show I would love for you to do that as well and one way that you can really

[01:00:42] help out is by leaving a review on your preferred podcast platform but especially Apple because

[01:00:48] that is where a lot of people listen and that is where people can find out if this is a show that

[01:00:52] they want to listen to so if you liked this conversation or others that you listen to please take

[01:00:57] a few minutes leave a five-star rating and drop a comment on Apple podcasts that really

[01:01:02] really helps I hope this has been a good start to the new year for you and we will be back in a

[01:01:08] couple weeks with a new episode but in the meantime I hope you guys find some time to relax

[01:01:13] and not be in a hurry and we'll catch you next time