Why Your Sermons Should Be Shorter - Alastair Roberts

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike claim is that you need shorter sermons and you need longer and more varied forms of teaching elsewhere.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's splitting the weight of Christian teaching so that the sermon is not so low to bearing

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and having other pillars of Christian teaching that are provided as norms.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast episode 347. I'm your host Mike Neglia.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Our guest for this week is Dr. Alastair Roberts. And he really starts us off with a bang, doesn't he?

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This conversation largely centers around Alastair's belief that your sermon is too long and my sermon is too long as well.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He is advocating for sermons that are far shorter but that church services that are far fuller.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Engaging with disciples of Jesus to aid them in their spiritual formation with different aspects and different communication and teaching methods.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He thinks that the sermon is being asked to do far more than what it is originally supposed to do.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, whether he convinces you or not, I know that you are going to enjoy this conversation.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that I did. I've been listening to Alastair on the Theopolis podcast for years and years and years as well as dipping into mere fidelity over the years.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so to be able to meet him digitally over Zoom and have this conversation was a treat for me.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that it encourages and at least provokes some really good thought in your own heart and mind.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Before this conversation gets played, I do want to invite you to connect with Expositors Collective, subscribe to us on the podcast platform that you're listening to or also YouTube.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a presence on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And through these apps, we do try to put out encouraging content short little quotes and reminders that are good for the heart and the soul of a Bible teacher or a preacher almost every single day.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you need some kind of content that is going to edify and encourage you and remind you of the high calling of being a teacher of God's Word,

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll then find us on one of those social media platforms. We also have a private Facebook group.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There's almost 700 Bible teachers and preachers that are there already. We talk about the latest episodes as well as give advice on illustrations, commentary recommendations, etc.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to search for expositors, collective on Facebook. They'll be the public page and then the private group.

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[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, well I'm going to let you sit back and enjoy an intellectually challenging and stimulating conversation with Dr. Alistair Roberts.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Well hey, welcome to the expositors collective podcast. I am excited, honored, thrilled to be speaking with Dr. Alistair Roberts. Good afternoon, Alistair. How are you?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Doing very well, great to be with you.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: First question we always ask in this podcast is do you remember your first sermon that you have a preach or the first time that you like taught the Bible in public?

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of a way for us to get to know you a bit. So when's the first time you open God's Word in public?

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I have faint memories of it. It was probably around the age of 18, I think, 18 or 19. I was invited to speak at prayer meeting and it was supposed to be maybe 20 minutes or something.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I ended up only speaking for five. I'd not really worked out what I was going to say well enough in advance to fill the time.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the next time I preached it was on a Sunday and I gave a sort of systematic theology of faith, the doctrine of faith.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was very long and involved and technical and it was not a very good sermon. That was my first experience.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, was the person who invited you to preach on this Sunday morning where they present that prayer meeting?

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. So probably expecting to be air on the shorter side of things.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it was more a matter of it was very encouraging context. They wanted to develop whatever gifts people in the congregation had and so they were very tolerant of people not actually being their best first time.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was room I felt and grace for me to get things less than perfect but being encouraged to improve and various ways. So that was a very, I'm very thankful for that context because we're not for that.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I would not be doing the sort of work that I'm doing now. There were a lot of ways in which I was supported and encouraged directed and given opportunities to develop gifts that I would not have had in many other contexts.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you said if it weren't for that then you wouldn't be doing what you're doing now. Do you mean do you mean that Sunday morning system ideology lecture like that specifically or you mean that major general.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that context of a church that's supportive.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so there were contexts within which we could speak for the church more generally it's a small church about 40 members.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there were contexts within which we're encouraged to start around Bible studies and discussion groups.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I did both those things and it was particularly the times that I and a few others started Bible study groups and groups studying certain books of theology and other things like that.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It was through those that I really cut my teeth theologically and just preaching.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then join my time at university in Saint Andrews and in other contexts would get groups of us together to practice.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So for instance, join my time in Saint Andrews there were several of us who would meet every Sunday evening after evening evening services.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And each week one of us would preach and then we'd all give feedback and then we'd pray together.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it was just a great context there and in the other context that I had in my church to cut my teeth on preaching and then to develop skills and degree of confidence that I might not have had otherwise.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Whose idea was it to start that Sunday evening like preaching club?

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure who whose idea it was.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to think back, I can't recall it wasn't mine.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and there were a few people, I may have just risen in conversation with a few of us who are in the theology department or interested in preaching and involved in the preaching rotors in our churches.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And whatever it was.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Not sure the origin of the idea but it really was very effective.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it was was there like like an older Wiser mentor there or was it all a bunch of 19 years old?

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It was mostly youngest students.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was a context where there were a number of different theological and church traditions and backgrounds represented and we all got on very well as friends and so people were forgiving and encouraging.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet also they wanted to push and develop whatever skills we had and push back when something went wrong.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well in my Bible college years, myself and some friends, we had a group similar group, we called it pick and preach and we'd gather together and be assigned a Bible passage at random.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And then have five minutes to think about it and then we'd give a very short sermon and then get constructive feedback.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Which was fun, which it was a good way to spend time.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It helped with some rhetorical abilities but then as far as I actually dig into the passage that we were kind of skimming across the surface of what a passage could have mean.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just kind of like here's some thoughts that I have and here's how I can arrange it.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But sounds like yours actually was a signed and advanced and you know we'd disappear.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And also found other groups where several people within the church get together generally the elders and some other members who are serious biblical scholars or students of theology get together to discuss the passage that's going to be preached on that Sunday.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: In advance and talk through it in the past or whoever's going to be preaching takes their thoughts.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Bring them together and then preachers on the topic, those sorts of groups can be really helpful.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So for instance, in the office one of the things that we do as part of our fellow's program is every fortnight.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll get together for about two and a half hours on Saturday and talk through three passages that three different groups of the students have prepared.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And then everyone gives feedback to the presentation that's given and we go through the text from exogetical remarks, typology, think through how you would develop teaching about doctrine or ethics and then how would you.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Present this to a congregation in preaching and that sort of process I find very.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very helpful for thinking through a passage and working towards that stage when you're going to be preaching it.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a sort of metabolization process that's going on and bringing more people into that so it's not just something that the pastor is doing privately.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It actually is very helpful.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was a newer concept to me maybe seven eight years ago when I first kind of encountered it.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It struck me as the strangest weirdest thing and I've yeah I've been incorporating that in lesser and greater degrees over the years sometimes it's simply a Google doc that goes out to various leaders and elders in the church.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But when it happens, it's like a wonderful special thing and through expositors collective we really encourage many people to to adapt that see how it works and then try it out.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you said, the metabolizes it sure does there sure is a way when you're actually conversing with people with the people they're going to be in the room that next Sunday and then talking through how that impacts their own heart and life and what are the objections that them and people like them would have to it and how does that bring comfort to them.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a very you know it nothing can well books are great and like living people in your life are also great.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I find also it's it's helpful for people to see the process that you follow when you're working from the initial reading of the text hearing the text and be attentive to it.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: The process of moving from that to actually interpreting or understanding and articulating the meaning of the text to then moving to addressing it to a congregation.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That process is usually one that the congregation doesn't see.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. And yet that process is deeply illuminating for how we how the scripture is actually exerting the authority within the context of the sermon.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: When you begin to see what's going on behind the scenes and the way in which the text is driving the sermon if it indeed it is driving the sermon.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that is a very powerful thing to strengthen the actual force of the message because the message is seen to be carrying the authority of the text behind it.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Alistair, do you spend most of your time giving advice towards other preachers or are you the one who's kind of receiving the advice more often than not?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, most of the time I'm not actually preaching. Most of my work is done in a more general teaching capacity.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned that the offer is podcast. We spend time every two weeks we record two sessions and we just discuss at length usually about an hour and for each session a text currently going through a due to autonomy and just getting into detail of the nitty gritty of the exadesis.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That is not the same thing as preaching and then other times I'll be preparing biblical reflections or talking on various subjects of scriptural doctrine.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm used to those sorts of studies and giving various lectures and addresses on certain subjects related to biblical theology on topical issues that are drawing from the scripture.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That preaching I tend to do maybe a due teaching in sort of adults and their school on occasion as well.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But preaching I probably do once every month, two months maybe and in that context and not usually taking much advice or giving much advice directly.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Much of what I'm drawing from is from these are the context of discourse.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah and the reason why I was asking is going to you know, which would prompt my next question which is either do you have any advice for the the preacher who's receiving the advice?

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But then sounds like you probably have more to say about the advice givers or the input givers as to how they're making informed and help their preacher.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, how can people who like you, who maybe have been let's say they've been asked to join one of these groups for their first time.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: What should they never do and what should they always do?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so for me I find the most important thing is you're learning to listen to the text and the task of attention is the primary one that lies before you.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And the task that you have within such a group is to give your ear and to encourage others to hear things within the text that they may not otherwise heard.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you're training your attention and a training of attention is not the same thing as it's very different from bringing a certain agenda to the text.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is often something that we can do certainly coming from more conservative theological or evangelical background.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: The tendency often can be to come to the text with a certain procedure expecting to get something at the end of it.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So you are looking to the text for some sort of doctrine or you're looking to it for morals or you're looking to it for some sort of devotional nugget.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're going through the text almost cranking this handle and expecting to find this thing that you're looking for at the other side.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I would encourage people to do is almost shell-volue your questions.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Leave all the agenda and the procedure to one side.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What you are trying to do is to hear the text and to allow the text to drive the study.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And that sounds a bit strange maybe that first but for me a lot of it is about learning to listen.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so one of the things that I often do is read the text three four times.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't have any questions just listen to the text and then as you've read through a few times start to ask yourself what questions the text itself provokes.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So what are some of the details within the text that stand out as strange?

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: What are some the anomalies of the text is there a redundant seemingly detail within the text is their repetition within the text.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there something about the text that reminds you of something else?

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe think about questions about the form of the text and thinking about the way that it narrates certain things.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were to plot the text, what are the different scenes or how would you divide up this story?

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Where is the beginning? Where is the end? Does it actually correspond with the chapter divisions?

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you might think about the way in which certain people are characterized? Why is Michael called the daughter of Saul here?

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But then the wife of David over here. Why that difference? You can call her both things, she's the same person.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But why those different characterizations?

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Or what particular terms are used that are strange terms that maybe come up in only a couple of other passages?

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But here they kind of stand out.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Or if you were to characterize the text as using a certain palette, you might think about the experience of sitting in the cinema and you don't know exactly what film you're going to watch.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you've gone to watch a film, you don't know exactly what to expect.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you see the beginning scene and there's some tumbleweed blowing across the screen, there's a strum over guitar, there's all these sorts of details that remind you of a particular genre.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And when we're reading Scripture, there's often details within the text that primest to expect other things.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's paying attention to those sorts of details.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you're within a group, a lot of it is learning to provoke each other to pay greater attention.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so often you'll find that different people notice different things.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the first thing that when you're preparing this process of listening to a text,

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that process is one in which you're often noticing different things and provoking each other to be more attentive in specific ways.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you can think about the ways that people can give feedback when you've given a sermon.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That's another important thing, and often it can be in the same group.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You could maybe give feedback on last week's sermon as you're beginning to prepare for the next.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And in such feedback, often what you're looking for are different perspectives and different vantage points within the congregation.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And there it can be maybe more helpful to draw from a wider range of people than you'd have within such a study group.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to pay attention to a lot of people hearing who are not scholars, who are not theologians,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: who are wanting encouragement for their daily lives and some sort of direction for their work or their family.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is something that you're probably not going to get as well within such a group,

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: as you would just talking to a number of people within the congregation.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And that having that sort of range of people within the congregation that you're getting feedback from locations can be helpful in part because it gives you a stronger

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: sense of your audience. So you're not speaking to a broad vaguely defined context or just speaking about the issue in this abstract sense.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Rather, you have a sense of people whose eyes you're supposed to be meeting,

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and people who you're supposed to be addressing the word of God to their conscience,

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and they can be representative of a wider group of people within the congregation.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you're failing in that address, if you're not connecting with them,

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they can be canaries in the coal mine for different parts of the constituency that you're seeking to reach to.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's an excellent addition. I'm glad that you included.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the feedback from, let's just say people who don't have a masters of divinity.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe there's a certain type of person that you're inviting into the study beforehand.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But then the feedback at the end even reminds us that we're talking,

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: let's say amongst people that are familiar with the languages or this for that,

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but most human beings are not, and our churches are made up of those types of people.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's also a limit for someone like me who's doing most of my work for a more specific audience within the church.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Mostly for pastors and scholars and those who are more academically inclined.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so much to the time if you're preaching, you're not addressing that narrow audience.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You're addressing something a lot broader.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And the sort of feedback that you're looking, you should be looking for, should reflect that breath.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. So I live in Quark City, which is a, it's a university town.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We have professors, we have a lot of college students in the church.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's also not to be, you know, it's also a town in Ireland.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And that means that there's a lot of diversity, you know, it also means there's a lot of, how could it be blunt?

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of alcoholics as well.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Our church has also has like a very, a very fruitful, like addiction recovery ministry, which pulls in people that are just like, that have rough, rough lives and their,

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: their meeting Jesus and the midst of just the messiness of their lives.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so my, my constituents to use the word that you said earlier on, like it's, it's professors and it's people that are like nursing a hangover that morning as well.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a wonderful variety. I mean, we have a little bit more exaggerated than, then some, but I've a feeling that every congregation has has a wide swath of the human race present.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I suspect there's some overlap with the experience I had in church in the Republic of Ireland growing up a similar sort of breath.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I imagine being both from the broad similar region of Ireland.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it would be similarities there.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we tried to be very careful to not generalize too much.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we've gone wildly off script already and that's, that's totally fine. I love it.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Always the best conversations.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, you know, I, I sent you some questions, but then, okay, so I, I know that you have,

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know you have strong opinions about a lot of things. I know that you have strong opinions about the length of sermons and then the reason why is because you believe that our Sunday morning gatherings

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Should or could include other aspects of like,

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think part of it was the experience of seeing this sort of thing done well, having a variety of different sorts of discourse on a Sunday morning and realizing that the sermon could be more if it did not try to be everything.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a sense in which people see the sermon as the form of Christian teaching that beyond that, if it's not being placed in the Sunday morning sermon, the congregation is not going to receive it.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's not much beyond that in the way of instruction.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But it seems to me that the sermon is at its best when it's not intended to be the Swiss Army knife of Christian teaching.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: When it's allowed to do something very specific and focused, and it's allowed to do that by the fact that we have other forms of Christian teaching and instruction and exhortation and catacusis in various other contexts.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And ideally, on a Sunday morning as well. So you would have several different forms of address on a Sunday morning. You might think about the way that there is within a standard meeting. There is a sermon but they can also be some sort of, you caeristic address in the context of the celebration of the supper, have some sort of exhortation in that context.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you might have in the broader context some sort of Christian catacusis or instruction. And that is also a context within which you could have more expositional teaching.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when we think about the breadth of teaching that we are called to engage in within the church, it seems to me that the sermon is overburdened if it's expected to do all of those different things.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so my exhortation is for people to have shorter sermons and people just tend to hear just this.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And shorter sermons, and then think no, we can't have shorter sermons because when would we get all this teaching in?

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you have the shorter sermon there's nothing there's no context for really teaching people how to read the Bible and depth. There's no context for giving them doctrinal instruction, etc.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And my claim is that you need shorter sermons and you need longer and more varied forms of teaching elsewhere.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's splitting the weight of Christian teaching, so that the sermon is not soloed bearing and having other pillars of Christian teaching that are provided as norms.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, practically speaking, this raises different questions. I am not saying that if you do not have these other load bearing forms that you should shorten your sermons.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Ideally, you want to have shorter sermons but with these other load bearing things in place because if you don't have those in place shorter sermons is actually going to be quite a loss.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to diminish the range of Christian teaching that you're providing.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what you need, I'm arguing, is these other load bearing forms of teaching?

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you're not arguing for a shorter church service but a shorter sermon within the same length church service and then using it for other, I'll let you finish, but yeah other load bearing stuff.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: A longer gathering time probably is better when you're putting it.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that when we focus upon the church service, we have in mind the more formal period of Christian worship and instruction.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would argue that that ideally should be only part of the Christian gathering, a sermon morning.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Ideally, you want to have time in fellowship which is less formal.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So eating together, spending time just in conversation and mutual encouragement because that's a form of Christian teaching.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Likewise, the sermon is not the only form of teaching that is within the more form of part of worship.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Singing is a form of teaching we exhort and encourage each other through song as we read in scripture.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We might think also about the way that there is a certain model logic character to Christian teaching when it focuses very much upon the pastoral preacher at the front delivering this lengthy address.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas within the context of a more participatory litigial form of worship, where there are parts of scripture and traditional litigial being expressed in a more responsive form.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the teaching is through these things that we are saying within the context of response and address.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is again something that encourages different forms of learning.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there are certain things that you learn better when you're engaging in them in a more participatory way rather than just receiving an address in a more passive form.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think ideally what you're looking for is longer gathering time within that gathering time having the formal litigee within which you have a sermon and ideally also some sort of shorter eukaristic address that specifically relates the topic of the sermon to the gathering and the sharing of the bread and the wine.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in the broader context of the meeting having some time of Christian education.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So that could be some ex-sagetical teaching, some catechetical instruction concerning doctrine or some topical instruction concerning some issues of Christian practice or something of the kind.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And that provides a different range of context and forms of teaching. So you've got, and this is one of the things that I think Christians can easily understate the variation of Christian teaching.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So we have examples. We teach by example, by being people that represent the truth that we excel.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We can teach through exhortation and encouragement, exhorting people to certain forms of behavior.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You can speak in a way that a eukaristic address has a certain form of teaching. It's specifically related to a practice and it's calling people to that practice to a focused form of attention and activity.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And it helps to focus your attention and your activity in a way that is conducive to doing that practice well.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Then there are these broader forms of instruction in Christian doctrine, where you have, for instance, the foundations of the, for instance, the catechism or the creed or some confession of faith, where you're being instructed within the linearments of Christian doctrine.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you can have more topical forms of teaching, addressing some of the questions for instance that we might have about the relationship between our faith and our work.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And how we think through those issues requires something that maybe is not best addressed within the context of the sermon, but within more an extensive series of Christian teaching within adult Sunday school.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And then that sort of Sunday school might provide a context for more differentiated teaching, so you're not just dividing the congregation into different groups of worship.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But in different groups where they can have more targeted teaching that's more equipped for their vocation and their level of understanding.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have the gathered meeting where we're being exalted and our consciences are being addressed with the word of God.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And a far more direct way in a sermon, and this is one of the points that I'd try to make that when you're trying to get the sermon to do everything, something of the exotational force of the sermon can get dissipated.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And a shorter sermon can pack more of an applicatory and exotational punch because it's not attempting to do these other things.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is something that can work for all ages within a congregation far better than a form of teaching that is trying to do everything and cover all the basics.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you actually have distributed that out to different contexts, the sermon doesn't have to be a sort of evangelistic message and something that's training someone who's been a Christian for 50 years in what it means to be faithful in their particular vocation isn't have to be addressed to children in their most basic level of understanding.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't have to on the one level be a lowest common denominator, nor does it have to be something that's speaking to the most advanced in the congregation.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: A message of exotation actually can be broader in many cases than a message of instruction.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I would want the sermon to be more exotational directed to the conscience and have the broader body of teaching more distributed and more focused within these different ways.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Now again, this is a matter of practicality. Many churches this is going to require significant change and if I am not in favour of revolutions.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If this is going to entail some sort of division within your church if it's going to break down all sorts of structures that are needed, that's not a good thing.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not finding conferences, it's not a perfectionist form of advice. It's an ideal and if you can achieve that without causing damage to the unity of the church and actually advance to a greater level of understanding and instruction of scripture.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Great. If it's going to cost you on these various other fronts, this is not the root to take.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay. So here you talk about it. It's like, it's like you've almost won me over.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a grip. Oh yeah, maybe.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds less provocative and revolutionary than when I first encountered you talking about this sounds almost a little kind of like more of the traditional like adults on this school followed by

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, regular church quote unquote that maybe would even include a children's message in there followed by a potluck.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's for an old Baptist.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's what happened to us.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the things that I think when we see the sermon as the one key Swiss army not the question teaching, we lose a lot of the other aspects.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We lose the sort of conversational teaching. You can often learn a lot more in forms of instruction when you have a more dialogic form when there are questions being asked to the past or the elders who are teaching on a particular subject or when you have different voices involved in the instruction or you divide between different groups that are instructing within those context or you have less formal context of just conversation and getting to know each other within the church.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And the context of eating together that can be a great context for learning from example and it seems to me that the church is one of these peculiar communities that has such a variety of different forms of instruction within it.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And when we think about instruction, we tend to think of a sort of information dump. It's not an information dump. We learn from examples. We have catacetical instruction. We have doctrinal instruction. We have moral address. We have exhortation to practice. We have all these different forms and context of teaching. Intergenerational teaching, teaching in the context of the life of a community.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And teaching through discipleship and learning from example in activity together. Sort of a apprentice model. All of these need to have their place within the life of the church.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're expecting all of this to be served by that model logic address with one person, the preacher or the pastor at the front, addressing a large congregation who are just sitting in the pues.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Who don't actually have much time talking among themselves and having other forms of address with the pastor. I think even the effectiveness of the sermon will be diminished. We talked earlier about the importance of feedback.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that you do get when you have different forms of dialogic teaching, whether that's one to one conversation and informal conversation around a meal table or whether it's a sort of question and answers within context of more focused teaching.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The pastor gets to know where the congregation are coming from, what their level of theological understanding or what some difficulties and challenges are for them.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when he's preaching, he will have an ability to address more effectively the congregation where they are. So I actually think if this were followed, you would have better preaching as well.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right. Yeah, well, that's worth thinking over very, very carefully.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I come back? You said a few different times you talked about the sermon being like a Swiss army knife that it's trying to do all kinds of things and that it's doing more than it's supposed to do.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so, what's the sermon supposed to do?

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: My sense is that the ideal sermon is primarily addressing the word of God to the conscience, the consciences of the congregation.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's addressing also a gathering of the people.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a form of address that has authority.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an expression of the authority of the word in a way that mere instruction does not quite attain.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's not just advice, it's not just a sort of academic address.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that should be speaking in a way that gives the word purchase in your conscience, that and it's that's what it's aiming for.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it should leave you with a sense of God's claim upon your life and your practice and God's claim upon his body, the church that is gathered in that particular place.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is something I think also that relates the sermon to the vocation of the pastor in a stronger way than just the pastor being someone who's theologically trained and rhetorically gifted.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The pastor has a particular role as a guardian of the congregation addressing and representing the authority of Christ expressed in his word to his people.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And in that context, I think that authority can be expressed in a way that is it's a conducive rhetorical form for it.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And that I think maybe is clearer when there's other things that the sermon tries to do are distributed to other contexts and sometimes to other speakers as well.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah okay thank you and that's actually was leading into my very next thought or question.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So so you know my sermon last Sunday was 36 minutes and I was I was aiming for 30.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What are the sort of things that I and then people like me now let's say someone listens to this podcast and then vows I'm going to get it down to 15 minutes this coming Sunday like what are the sorts of things that you think could be yeah shortens or or removed or amputated or I guess amputators are onward.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Transplanted somewhere else but but what are the sort of things that when you when you visit in a church or listening online that you kind of think like does this does this need to be here.

[00:41:40] Yep.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Well first of all that that word transplanted is key there are many contexts where these things aren't being transplanted elsewhere and that context you will need to preach along a sermon because there is no other context where this form of teaching is going to fit.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I generally find myself in context where there are not these other forms of teaching and so I've preached longer sermons in those contexts.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But in a context where there are other forms of Christian instruction, I would focus far more upon exhortation it's very easy when you've had an address elsewhere in the context of the gathering.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Where you've been teaching through a particular passage for instance and having taught through that or having had the public again this gives place for the other parts of the gathering to really come into their own.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And because the sermon is not.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Load bearing for everything you end up with these other parts of the service beginning to be more emphasized that you begin to understand the importance of the celebration of the supper more when you have dedicated you choristic address.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And where you have context where it's not just a pended but there's a sense in which this is a key aspect of the service and even something that gives a context for everything else.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So the sermon in some senses preparing you for that there's a sense in which the sermon is table talk then you might think about the way that there is.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: When you've got that focus that you're trying to address the word of God people's conscience that word has maybe been encountered in the form of the public reading scripture.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And that public reading of scripture again is not just a springboard for the sermon.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that is important in itself and so ideally you want people who are gifted and trained readers of the text and so they're giving a lot of thought and practice to how they're going to communicate this text even the act just of reading it.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: If you read the text well it conveys something of the understanding you can see if you've watched a Shakespearean play performed by really gifted actors.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: The sense of the text even if you don't understand what all the words and the expressions mean there's a sense in which those things can be conveyed by gifted and actor and in the same way when someone who is really gifted at reading reads a biblical text and they read it with understanding.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They can communicate it's meaning and from that the force of that can be communicated in the exhortation of the message that follows.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I would want to focus upon the ways in which the sermon in its intent is working with these other elements.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And once you've done that you find the sermon is not going to have to do all these things it's actually drawing strength from these other parts of the service.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's drawing strength from the responsive form of the litigy it's drawing strength from the public reading of scripture.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not having to if you've read the text really well you're actually following through the strength of that in the sermon.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you're working into the practice of the supper as well.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you've got that you've got the teaching in other contexts that's taken place maybe on the passage that you're preaching on.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you're not having to do all the exegesis the exegesis the spade work has been done elsewhere and now having done all that spade work and articulated the meaning of the text.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Now you can address that meaning to people's consciousness.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it seems to me that what you're looking for is the distribution of these things and the way in which you can integrate the various aspects of a gathering of the people of God.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that the sermon is part of this wider set of elements and it's not having to do all the work itself.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And once that's the case I think you'll find that the sermon does not have the same pressure to be so long.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You can find that the repetition that is common to many let these sermons is not there.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You can also, I don't know, a lot of the things that you find within evangelical sermons that sort of the address that's encouraging people to conversion.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And those sorts of things are not necessarily the sort of thing that's suited for every single audience.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And my sense often growing up was that everyone needed to have within every some that had to be some called conversion.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: In most cases you're not speaking to a congregation that's largely unconverted people.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There needs to be an address of the gospel and its truth.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And that will be relevant to people who are not yet converted.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But the more that the message of the church has to cover all basins I think it will struggle to do those things that ought to do well.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And the sermon will tend to balloon while losing some of its its pointedness.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the focus for me is address the conscience and address the conscience with the reading of Scripture, with the practice of the supper, with the various other aspects of the litigity and the teaching that has occurred beforehand.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And when that occurs I think you'll lose a lot of the repetition, you'll lose a lot of the elements that had come into to pack the sermon.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you'll just find that the diminishing returns that you find with a lengthy sermon on the congregation's attention span are rewarded by the alternative to that is short of messages and great to retention.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Now a lot of preachers myself included, we repeat things in order to get it into people's heads.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We repeat things in order to get it into people's heads.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a purpose behind the repetition granted some people just circle around because they're trying to think of the next thing to say.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But there certainly are you know skilled homileticians who would repeat even with variation intentionally so that it kind of lands.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like that you think that a clear powerful short punchy communication nestled within this context or matrix of all the other things will be retained as much.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think there's a few things here. First of all, one of the, particularly those of us who are within a more expository context of Christian teaching.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a danger of trying to get every single element of a particular passage into the sermon to be comprehensive in your treatment of the text and there's a sense in which you can do that when you're teaching you can cover the broad themes of the text.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet when you're trying to exhort or to apply a text, often less is more what you want is something that will really drive home and you'll leave people with something that they will remember.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is often not going to be several different applications. It's going to be one very well and drawn and developed application.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's the sort of thing that you're going to be covering within a sermon, within a more exegetical expository address.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That gives you a broader range to treat a passage and you're not necessarily having to apply it.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And trying to hit all of the lacimals at once.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to work ideally you just want to focus on one thing and to do that well and it seems hadn't Robinson, I think said that yeah a sermon should be like a sniper rifle as opposed to like a shotgun blast that you have a purpose and you go for that rather than yeah,

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: lacimal as you said. But the danger is if that's all that you're doing, if you don't have this broader context of expository teaching and instruction, you can end up with very selective.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And the question teaching and congregations that really know the top call issues of their certain of their pastes, the thing that they care about yeah and not actually having the sort of meat and potatoes even of the Christian faith.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: They've got all these key issues that their pastor wants to apply but not necessarily the broader range of Christian instruction.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you need both I think and it can often be better to achieve both by having them in different contexts rather than trying to achieve them all within a single rhetorical framework.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well this has been yeah this is definitely I don't want to please I'm not trying to patronizing this is real food for thought for for me I've again I've heard I've read you talk about this before I really wanted to tease some of these things out together and you know for the.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not an exclusive coverage Apple listenership you know, but we're we're a long preaching bunch.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We are into expository teaching and preaching and then I think in the Calgary world we really lean into I suppose like how any fusions it talks about like the pastor pastor teacher or pastor slash teacher or you know maybe some people think of it as a teacher is the pastor but but looking at like the dieactic element of teaching which lens itself towards.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You elongated messages at times when it's explaining those things so I think you're helping us to think better and I appreciate that.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't check the podcast feed to see how short next Sunday is at Calgary court but but I'm always I'm always trying to be like.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Rarely do I think oh I should have gone longer often I think you know I could have gone a little bit shorter, you know so I have a desire to shorten every Sunday and I appreciate your input and your thoughts.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I should say that's when I preach I tend to preach longer simply because that's the context that I'm speaking with in where there are not these are the forms and so I'm first of all I'm not wanting to be.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a revolutionary I'm working with in the structures that are given to me and I need to honor that.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of problems with people who come to a particular church context and want to turn everything upside down because they have a particular idea of how things will better be done.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Now there are ways we should and could be reforming and improving things but if you wanted to turn everything upside down you will often do so at the expense of things that are of greater importance.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so don't do that and my concern is that we do the best that we can do and the best that we can do is often less than ideal in certain respects and that's okay.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I just want us to be thinking about how we could be improving.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing is that I am primarily someone who's engaged in this didactic teaching whether doing my biblical reflections or talking through texts on light I really love that sort of teaching and I think questions need so much more of that teaching.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's actually one of the things that has prompted my thoughts on this subject not so much as a preacher but as someone who feels that the didactic teaching is not really allowed to come into its own when it's existing with their context where it has to be lowest common denominator where it has to jostle for its place with all these other forms of moral instruction with exhortation and encouragement.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And once it's having to do everything at once it doesn't do anything particularly well and so I am all for doctrinal instruction I'm all for this broader form of didactic teaching but I think maybe we need more space rhetorically and in different forms for it to take place.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, certainly yeah you don't have to convince me that you are you know for teaching I mean actually on a different tab on my laptop I have your complete Bible commentary open and I and I see that in Utah for 10 hours and 12 minutes on the gospel of Matthew you know so there's you certainly.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah you don't have to convince me but I appreciate that like I really see we're gone a little bit longer than we ordinarily do in like a minute or two do you want to.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe let us know how you're currently trying to improve like you mentioned that you preach kind of occasionally maybe once a month or so like next next month when you preach again what would you like to do a little better.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And they get a great way to end our conversation.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes one of the things that I found very helpful is preaching from a lecture area where the text is not one that you have chosen the text is chosen for you by the passage for that week and it forces you again to deal with what the text is saying.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And because you don't have a choice over the text and then you just have to listen to what that text is saying I listen to it again and listen to it again and so my goal is having listened to the text.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Having felt the force of the text in my life approaching the text as a living voice to which I have to give ear rather than an inert text to which I have to give voice.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And those are different things and so I am placing myself at the disposal of the text and then I'm having experienced the force of the text myself trying to communicate something of that to others.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And to do so as a living authority voice this is a voice that makes claims upon us this is the living word of God and so I am wanting to address the conscience of every hero with something of the force that I first have to afelt myself.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that process of attention and metabolization is essential for what comes next which is the communication of something of that force that you have received yourself.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And then at the end of that you want people to be thinking about the force of God's claim upon their lives not your rhetorical gifts or some clever point that you made.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You want them to feel that they have encountered the voice of Christ that they have experienced something of his claim upon their lives and also experienced something of his grace.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you're giving people exaltation but also you're giving people the gospel force of encouragement of authorization that they are the sons and daughters of the living god and they are charged to go out in price name and to live and act in his power.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well earlier in this conversation you spoke about different ways that people learn and you mentioned these different types you included like conversation and you included fellowship as a way that people learn.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate this conversation, this is help me learn and maybe for those that are listening along that's helped them as well. Hopefully I've been a good interlocutor to help as people have been listening along so.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: For the listeners of this conversation I hope that this podcast and all the video expositors collective helps you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word. Thanks Alster.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_01]: All right well, thanks for listening all the way to the end. Well, did he convince you or or not?

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: As I said in the interview, I mean he almost convinced me he almost convinced me.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned at the beginning of the episode that we do have a Facebook private group for Bible teachers and preachers.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to like talk through this stuff with other listeners to the podcast, well, this would be a great opportunity to ask people if they've integrated any of these suggestions into their church life and how has that worked for them.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I hope that this conversation is kind of like stimulating, but ultimately we want to be like obedient to the Lord and care for the people that he's entrusted to us and use our Sunday mornings or Wednesday nights to the uttermost like fruitfulness.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes talking with other leaders is a way of just provoking thought in such a way that it's going to benefit our people.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, maybe see you there or definitely we'll see you next Tuesday for the next episode of the expositors collective podcast.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a part of C.G.N Media, a podcast network that points to Christ. We're supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows visit cgmedia.org slash support.