Pulpit Flourish vs Pastoral Care

[00:00:00] Learning what it meant to love people, to care for them, to see the word change them when they were facing grief or sin or hurt, loss of loved ones.

[00:00:12] I had no idea how to do that.

[00:00:14] And what I learned was pulpit flourish is not nearly so important as pastoral care.

[00:00:23] That's how I needed them more than I knew and in a sense more than they knew.

[00:00:29] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective podcast, episode 360.

[00:00:34] I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:35] The voice that you just heard is that of our guest, Dr. Brian Chappell.

[00:00:41] He's someone who, to some degree, needs no introduction.

[00:00:46] If you are at all familiar with the contemporary homiletics scene,

[00:00:51] or if you've been through any seminary or Bible college class about the preparation and delivery of sermons,

[00:00:59] Dr. Chappell literally wrote the book on Christ-centered preaching.

[00:01:04] So for that reason, I was really excited back in 2022 to get a chance to speak to him via Zoom.

[00:01:14] And so I'm re-releasing this episode today.

[00:01:18] Now, this is scheduled to come out on the 26th of December.

[00:01:22] And I, like many of you, have had some time off.

[00:01:27] And so I didn't want to chase down someone and make an episode and interview someone fresh.

[00:01:35] So dug into the archives, went into the greatest hits.

[00:01:40] And as a Christmas gift to you, I am re-gifting you this episode with Brian Chappell.

[00:01:47] We speak about what it means to live Christianly in the secular workplace.

[00:01:54] We do speak about Christ-centered preaching.

[00:01:57] But much of this conversation and what I think what makes this episode really shine

[00:02:02] is just conversation about pastoral care and the importance of loving your congregation.

[00:02:10] So hopefully this is inspiring and encouraging and set you up into a good 2025.

[00:02:18] All right, here's my conversation with Brian Chappell.

[00:02:22] All right.

[00:02:29] Hey, Dr. Brian Chappell.

[00:02:31] Welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast.

[00:02:35] Thank you, Mike.

[00:02:36] I'm glad to be with you and glad to talk about preaching and expounding God's word.

[00:02:40] Oh boy, what a treat.

[00:02:41] Here's a question.

[00:02:42] When we started the Zoom call, you were eating something.

[00:02:45] What was that?

[00:02:47] A Mr. Goodbar.

[00:02:51] Because I'm late for lunch and didn't have lunch.

[00:02:54] So I thought I just need a little burst of energy.

[00:02:56] So here comes just a couple of bites of a Mr. Goodbar.

[00:02:59] Wow.

[00:02:59] Well, I hope the calories really help this.

[00:03:02] Yes.

[00:03:02] It's an energetic conversation.

[00:03:04] And I must say, of all the podcasts I've done, you're the first one who has asked that.

[00:03:10] Well, I'm curious.

[00:03:12] So that's your most recent meal.

[00:03:16] Next, I want to ask kind of the common question that we ask on this podcast, but what was your first sermon that you ever preached?

[00:03:26] I have no recollection of the text.

[00:03:30] I more remember what I was trying to do.

[00:03:32] So I'd had a lot of background in public address.

[00:03:39] So in my high school and college years, I had done a lot of competitive debate and public address and that sort of thing.

[00:03:47] So somehow in my mind, the first sermon was going to be the best oratory the world had ever heard.

[00:03:54] And so I preached something that had a lot of rhetorical flourish to it and was surprised when my homiletics professor said, you know, that's wonderful.

[00:04:07] It has absolutely nothing to do with the text in front of us.

[00:04:10] And that was my kind of understanding of, oh, it's not just about my flourish.

[00:04:15] It has something to do with being faithful to the word.

[00:04:19] And that was kind of a good comeuppance for me, I'm sure.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] Was that public feedback or was it private?

[00:04:27] Were you pulled aside like Aquila and Priscilla or were you rebuked to your face like Paul and Peter?

[00:04:32] No.

[00:04:33] No.

[00:04:33] Actually, the professor was quite kind in the class setting.

[00:04:39] It was more my peers who let me have it afterwards because I think they knew that I knew that I was really something.

[00:04:49] And so they were not reserved afterwards in kind of letting me know that it had little to do with scripture and a whole lot to do with rhetorical flourish.

[00:04:59] So I think they enjoyed letting me in on that.

[00:05:03] And not cruelly, but certainly I was my friends let me have it for their own entertainment for a bit.

[00:05:10] And the fact that I remember, let me think how long ago that was.

[00:05:14] So that would have been.

[00:05:17] That would have been like 45 years ago, and I still remember it.

[00:05:21] So I had to be good for me.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:23] Yeah.

[00:05:24] Wow.

[00:05:24] Yeah.

[00:05:24] Faithful are the words of a friend.

[00:05:26] So I'm glad that you heard that.

[00:05:28] And then probably instantly were changed forever and only preach good sermons from then on out.

[00:05:34] Right.

[00:05:35] Of course.

[00:05:36] I'll let you know the untruth of that.

[00:05:38] But yes.

[00:05:39] Yeah.

[00:05:40] Okay.

[00:05:40] Well, yeah.

[00:05:41] Thank you for that.

[00:05:42] I mean, this is kind of a secondary follow on question from that.

[00:05:46] But do you recall, let's say your first like church sermon, the first time that you preached

[00:05:51] on a Sunday morning without the homiletics professor there to give you feedback afterwards

[00:05:58] or even to.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:05:59] So when was your first real one?

[00:06:01] If I might ask that.

[00:06:03] Sure.

[00:06:04] And that would be a bit of a mix.

[00:06:06] So I have to say it two ways.

[00:06:08] So I started out from that point, kind of learning to preach, I will say actually by teaching.

[00:06:14] So I started doing Bible studies, even among my peers in the seminary setting.

[00:06:21] And I think that was probably very good for my heart because it was small settings, but

[00:06:25] still I was preparing from the word and getting oriented that way.

[00:06:30] So at the end of my first year of seminary, there was a little country church that asked me

[00:06:37] to come and be their preacher.

[00:06:39] And the first, you said, do I remember the first sermon?

[00:06:42] That was the first sermon in a church setting.

[00:06:46] And so the first one was actually my candidating sermon for them.

[00:06:50] So this was a little church of probably 25 people or so, an hour away into the rural districts

[00:06:57] of Illinois from where our seminary was.

[00:07:00] And I preached and I have no idea what the subject was or what the text was.

[00:07:06] Uh, I do remember, uh, thinking, man, I hope that went okay.

[00:07:11] Um, but, uh, later on I was learned, I was voted upon by the congregation as to whether they

[00:07:17] wanted me to come.

[00:07:18] Now, this is an interesting little sidebar.

[00:07:21] They almost voted me not to come.

[00:07:24] And why?

[00:07:26] Because this was a church that had been training.

[00:07:29] Um, it viewed its mission.

[00:07:31] I mean, even those only 25 people, they viewed their mission as getting these young seminarians

[00:07:36] ready for future pastoring.

[00:07:38] So they could not afford their church.

[00:07:40] Uh, they could not afford a pastor with this little church, but they, they viewed their mission

[00:07:45] as getting seminarians ready by, uh, during the remaining two or three years that they around

[00:07:51] seminary to preach weekly.

[00:07:53] And, uh, and they, they thought I, this is going to be odd sounding.

[00:07:58] They thought they couldn't help me.

[00:08:00] Uh, they, they thought that I was kind of beyond, um, what, what they needed.

[00:08:05] Now I desperately needed them.

[00:08:09] I knew so little about, um, pastoring.

[00:08:13] I, you know, could I stand on my feet and present a good oral message?

[00:08:16] Of course, you know, I, I'd done that for a number of years, as I said, even in competitive

[00:08:21] type settings, but learning what it meant to love people, to care for them, to see the

[00:08:28] word change them when they were facing, uh, grief or sin or, uh, hurt loss of loved ones.

[00:08:37] Uh, I had no idea how to do that.

[00:08:44] And, uh, that's, that's how I needed them more than I knew.

[00:08:53] And in a sense, more than they knew, uh, I, I came from a very shattered family background

[00:08:58] and learning to love people and be loved by them and actually let the spirit do that.

[00:09:04] You know, that it wasn't just a formal occasion or a formal rhetorical message of performance,

[00:09:10] actually ministering to people.

[00:09:12] I desperately needed to know what that was about and then fell in love with it.

[00:09:17] Um, it kind of opened a part of me again, I had kind of a shattered family background.

[00:09:21] So when I began to know what it meant to pastor people and be loved by them, it opened a dimension

[00:09:29] of my heart that I didn't even know much about.

[00:09:32] So I, I was exceedingly grateful for, uh, and remain to this day grateful for that, a

[00:09:39] little church of people who thought it was their job to train future pastors.

[00:09:43] Wow.

[00:09:44] And, and they did, they did.

[00:09:46] Well, so following on from that, I guess I'd love to hear about like, how have you grown

[00:09:52] as a, as a teacher and preacher and pastor, uh, since, since then?

[00:09:57] I mean, are there things that you did in those early years that you no longer do or, or vice

[00:10:02] versa?

[00:10:02] Have you, um, stopped doing things that you used to do back then?

[00:10:08] Uh, let me, let me start maybe again with the, with the heart things.

[00:10:12] I, I had to learn that preaching was not a performance, but actually trying to minister

[00:10:20] Christ to his people.

[00:10:22] And that had much less to do with, as I said, rhetorical flourish as connecting the truths

[00:10:31] of God word, God's word to the hurts or the sins or the desires or the dreams of God's

[00:10:38] people.

[00:10:39] How, how do I take that, that word and help people to sense that Christ himself is ministering

[00:10:46] to them through his word.

[00:10:49] And for someone who'd been trained in a kind of competitive debate, I, there was that hard

[00:10:56] transition of going from, um, how to, how do I reach people with the gospel, for instance?

[00:11:02] And there was a time in my life I thought, well, if I can just defeat them in argument,

[00:11:05] you know, I'll just convince them of the truth.

[00:11:08] Then, then of course they'll become Christians.

[00:11:10] And that, that put me in the mode of, I'll just crush their arguments.

[00:11:14] And then of course they'll believe, well, you, you, you know how effective that was.

[00:11:19] Um, I, I had to learn what it meant to, to love lost people, uh, when, when they were angry

[00:11:26] at God, angry at me, angry at the church to actually love them beyond their barriers.

[00:11:32] And to try to say, this is how Christ actually wants you to hear, uh, his word.

[00:11:38] And I, that's not just lost people.

[00:11:40] I mean, that's, that's people in the church who have their own barriers up often.

[00:11:44] And I, it was not, it was not my instinct.

[00:11:48] Again, I coming from a shattered, uh, kind of family background, my calloused soul was

[00:11:54] well-hardened against feeling much or becoming very vulnerable.

[00:11:59] And I, I confess, I, I think I knew a lot about public speaking and very little about, uh,

[00:12:08] the pastoral care that God needed.

[00:12:12] So what, what did I have known over time?

[00:12:14] I think over time I became less formal.

[00:12:18] Um, there, there was a time I was sure that the, you know, the best argument was, uh, the

[00:12:23] most convincing argument.

[00:12:24] I, I actually believe at this point, the argument that people feel most connects their heart to

[00:12:32] God's word is what is most convincing.

[00:12:34] And that's, I'm not talking about not ministering from logic or mind, but I'm saying it's very

[00:12:40] much identifying how does this reach you?

[00:12:44] And, um, I, I became so much more concerned for that, but that's, that's always, uh, a growth,

[00:12:51] uh, uh, aspect.

[00:12:53] I think one of the neat things the Lord did in my life was even though I've had a lot of

[00:12:57] different aspects of my career, you know, being kind of a church executive, being a seminary,

[00:13:02] a professor or president, I, I've, the Lord has always kind of looped me back into the

[00:13:07] church at different points in my career.

[00:13:10] And I think that has been for my soul's correction because each time I'm tempted to just kind of

[00:13:17] make this a task, um, the Lord kind of takes me back to saying, you know, if you're not really

[00:13:25] connecting to the hearts of people, then however ornate or accurate may be your message, it's not

[00:13:34] really what Christ can use best.

[00:13:38] So you're aware, Mike, I mean, I do a lot of writing of what best communicates.

[00:13:42] So I, I certainly know those factors.

[00:13:43] I have a PhD in that material.

[00:13:45] Um, but I, I'm still getting my PhD in pastoring and, and believing what that means.

[00:13:52] And it seems as if that first church that you pastored, they're like deliberate vocalized

[00:13:57] mission was to help prepare these young men for a lifetime of service.

[00:14:03] But maybe are you saying that like, to some degree, every church has its role to play and

[00:14:08] like the sanctification and the encouragements, uh, and the formation, I suppose of, of leaders,

[00:14:13] whether they state it or not, like it's, it's a two-way street.

[00:14:16] No question.

[00:14:18] And, and I think sometimes people don't know that.

[00:14:21] And sometimes pastors don't know that we were going kind of deep here fast, but I actually

[00:14:25] grieve for a lot of young pastors that I see because of something they struggle with that

[00:14:32] I didn't when, when I was the agent.

[00:14:34] And that is what, what is their role, particularly with media and internet communication.

[00:14:40] And I, I look at young pastors who spend hours every day, um, on the internet critiquing

[00:14:47] other people and identifying where other people are making mistakes or where their denomination

[00:14:54] is errant or whatever.

[00:14:55] I listen, I'm, I'm not saying some of that isn't needed and right, but I see those who think

[00:15:00] the main job of the pastor is to engage in correcting other people distant from them.

[00:15:08] You know, I'll, I'll identify that church executive, that ministry leader, that famous

[00:15:13] person, whatever it is.

[00:15:14] And, and all of their foibles, flaws, hypocrisies.

[00:15:19] And, and I think how sad that, that you're, you're kind of locked into that role.

[00:15:26] And I'm thinking, are, are there no widows in your congregation that need comfort?

[00:15:30] Are there no hospitals to visit?

[00:15:33] Because your own soul will be comforted, healed, built up, strengthened by ministering

[00:15:41] to other people in their weaknesses and in their hurts, rather than just identifying where

[00:15:47] other people are, are problems.

[00:15:49] And, and we, the, the internet has made that a, in my mind, a trap for many, a young pastor

[00:15:56] that they, they just get caught in the critique mode of, of what the internet allows us to

[00:16:02] do these days.

[00:16:03] And the echo chamber chamber is pretty effective.

[00:16:06] You can find lots of other people willing to make your critique and stay online with you.

[00:16:10] And, and, uh, so I, I, I love trying to talk about helping young pastors grow as pastors.

[00:16:18] And you and I are talking about preaching and how do I say it in some ways, that's the easiest

[00:16:23] aspect.

[00:16:25] Um, because you, you, you learn, you learn, how do you outline in text?

[00:16:30] How do you present it?

[00:16:31] How do you present it?

[00:16:32] Well, those are learnable skills.

[00:16:35] Um, they, they are also skills that can be divorced from your heart if you're not careful.

[00:16:41] Yeah.

[00:16:42] Uh, wow.

[00:16:43] Okay.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:45] I'm, I'm tired today because I had a really late night elders meeting last night and, and

[00:16:49] we were dealing with some frustrating issues and obviously you didn't ask, and I'm not

[00:16:55] going to get into what, what the issues are, but one of our elders, um, Mark Ryan, he's

[00:17:00] like, you know, we got to push through it.

[00:17:02] We got to, we got to push through this hard issue.

[00:17:04] He's like, and he reminded us here's what it's all about.

[00:17:07] And he, and he just said, you know, a couple of days ago, I was able to go, you know, visit

[00:17:10] a widow and I got to, you know, listen to her, pray with her.

[00:17:14] We got to buy her groceries and like, and that's what church is about.

[00:17:17] And we're, we do this other stuff.

[00:17:19] We push through this X, Y, and Z, all these other issues so that we can be there, you

[00:17:24] know, for, for that widow and for others, others like her.

[00:17:27] And I I'm so glad to hear you say even something similar that they there's not only is there

[00:17:33] the internet out there and be careful.

[00:17:35] I don't mean to alarm you, Dr.

[00:17:36] Chappell, but we're on the internet right now, but like there's the problems of the internet

[00:17:40] out there, but then also there's the other flotsam and jetsam and just ongoing crises

[00:17:45] and frustrations of church life.

[00:17:48] But I was thankful for Mark last night.

[00:17:50] And then you even right now, just reminding us of, of that truth.

[00:17:54] It's, it's that widow.

[00:17:54] It's those people.

[00:17:55] Well, I, I remember Mike, when, uh, some, some poor, poorly dressed, uh, uh, malformed

[00:18:06] in appearance, young women began attending our church years ago.

[00:18:10] And, um, we were involved in some controversies as a, as a church at the time.

[00:18:15] And, um, at some point, one of these young women tried to take her life.

[00:18:22] And I got very involved in, in trying to minister to her and so forth.

[00:18:26] And I remember at, at our elders meeting afterwards, um, one of our elders, uh, just

[00:18:33] began to, uh, to weep and say, what, why didn't we even notice these young women who've been

[00:18:40] coming to our church who were in such need?

[00:18:42] And another elder, um, and another elder very honestly said, the reason we did not notice is

[00:18:48] because it was not to the advantage of any of us to pay attention to them.

[00:18:52] And that was, that was a time of repentance and honest confession, but nothing was better

[00:18:59] for us as a church say, here's this controversy of powerful people competing with one another

[00:19:04] to see who wins this argument.

[00:19:06] But what brought us to tears, broke our hearts, um, in some ways broke our pride to minister

[00:19:12] was to say, here's the calling of the church.

[00:19:15] Yes.

[00:19:15] Is it to be pure in doctrine?

[00:19:17] Yes.

[00:19:17] It is to be well-organized.

[00:19:18] Yes.

[00:19:18] But, but if it does not come from a heart that truly desires that the Holy spirit minister,

[00:19:25] the spirit of Jesus to his people in all their hurts and all their pains, then what we're

[00:19:29] doing is really foolishness.

[00:19:31] Yes.

[00:19:31] And, um, I, um, I keep learning what that means.

[00:19:36] I keep learning what that means.

[00:19:38] Um, uh, uh, listen, I love talking about Christ-centered preaching.

[00:19:43] I love talking about how is grace unfolding in every text and why is that important?

[00:19:47] And, and, and, but what I sometimes grieve about is we just get into some hermeneutical

[00:19:53] debate.

[00:19:53] Well, Jesus is there this way.

[00:19:55] He's not there.

[00:19:55] Oh, you did it right.

[00:19:56] You did it wrong.

[00:19:57] And I try to say it to, you know, listen, I know I'm supposed to be the exegete of exegetes

[00:20:02] here as the teacher, but I don't care a lot.

[00:20:05] You know, I don't, I, what, what I really want to know is if you help Jesus, have you

[00:20:10] helped people to experience the reality of the Lord in their lives today?

[00:20:15] And sometimes you'll get the text, right.

[00:20:16] Sometimes you won't believe me.

[00:20:18] If you're trying, if you'll get it right, most of the time, not all the time, all of

[00:20:23] the time, you'll get to stand up in the pulpit sometimes, read the text and go, oh no, I

[00:20:26] didn't see that was there until this very moment.

[00:20:30] But I really want to know that you have discovered the grace of God for your heart.

[00:20:36] And it's flourishing now in such a way that not only is he humbling you, but it's making

[00:20:41] you grateful.

[00:20:43] And it's that gratitude for the work of Christ that you just, you just are compelled to tell

[00:20:48] people, look at the grace of it.

[00:20:49] Look how God is taking care of broken people, sinful people, rebellious people, prideful

[00:20:55] people.

[00:20:55] Look what God is doing here in all his grace.

[00:20:58] And I just got to tell you that.

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:21:00] And part of that's because it comes out of our own brokenness.

[00:21:03] Cause if, if it doesn't mean a whole lot, if it was not making you terribly grateful, then

[00:21:08] you won't feel that compulsion and it's that gratitude that drives that sense of, man, I

[00:21:14] just want you to know what, what God has done to help my heart here.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:19] Yeah.

[00:21:19] I, I, I'm a correspondent student with a Western seminary and this is something I think that

[00:21:25] their outgoing president said, John Johnson, I think is his name.

[00:21:29] Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but, but he said in, in talking about preaching, he was

[00:21:33] saying, well, preaching and pastoral ministry.

[00:21:35] He says, um, you know, I don't really care if you can show everyone Christ in the passage,

[00:21:41] people need to see Christ in your life or is that it's, it's worthless.

[00:21:45] If you can show Christ in every single verse, but like, if he's totally absent from your life,

[00:21:49] your manner, the way you're caring for people.

[00:21:51] And, and that's, that's stuck with me.

[00:21:53] And I, I want to do both.

[00:21:56] And I'm, I'm glad to hear, I'm, I'm glad that you're saying it's, it's not either or

[00:21:59] because listen, you're torpedoing this whole interview.

[00:22:02] Cause I'm not talking to you about preaching, but I'm, I'm also totally happy to follow your

[00:22:06] lead.

[00:22:07] Um, what's, what's okay.

[00:22:09] Maybe just addressing this.

[00:22:11] Like, so I know when I discovered this whole Christ centered preaching thing, I was super

[00:22:16] excited and it became my kind of obsession.

[00:22:19] Like, you know, I read your book, listened to so many of your lectures and then, and then

[00:22:23] others as well.

[00:22:23] Um, just like getting into it.

[00:22:25] And is this maybe a common thing that you see where, where young, young preacher preachers

[00:22:31] discover the insight that you kind of, you and others have helped people to see.

[00:22:35] And then where it becomes almost at the risk of being like almost too important, or does

[00:22:42] it loom too large in people's minds at the expense of something else?

[00:22:46] Well, the answer has to be yes, but I want to, I want to be careful to say where do, where

[00:22:50] do all of us start?

[00:22:52] Almost all of us start as preachers about, I call the D and the D okay.

[00:22:56] Duty and doctrine.

[00:22:57] You know, I want to tell you either this text tells you what you should do or what you should

[00:23:02] know.

[00:23:02] Uh, here's how you should perform or here's better doctrine for you.

[00:23:06] Now I'm never going to say that the text is not relating what you should do, or the text

[00:23:12] is not relating what you should know.

[00:23:14] Both are absolutely necessary.

[00:23:16] Um, but if part of that, here's what you should do.

[00:23:21] And here's what you should know.

[00:23:22] If that is taking me only to here's more of what you should do and more of what you should

[00:23:27] know, then the, the contextual message of all the scriptures is actually unraveling.

[00:23:33] What was the contextual message of all the scriptures from Genesis three, 15, four, the

[00:23:37] messages, you are not your redeemer.

[00:23:40] You are not your redeemer.

[00:23:42] God must supply him.

[00:23:44] And so if my message as a preacher is here's more for you to do or more for you to know,

[00:23:48] then the implied message is, if you do enough, if you know enough, you'll be okay with God.

[00:23:53] Well, if your duty and your doctrine or what make you okay with God, who is your redeemer?

[00:23:58] You are your redeemer, right?

[00:23:59] You just perform better or no more, you know, and you'll say, well, I'm not perfect, but

[00:24:03] I'm better than those people down the street.

[00:24:05] And my doctrine may not be perfect, but it sure is better than those Baptists or those

[00:24:09] Methodists or those, whatever I'm not right.

[00:24:11] Right.

[00:24:11] And you say, I tease about it, Mike.

[00:24:14] I say, I'm Presbyterian and we Presbyterians are absolutely sure that you are not saved by

[00:24:19] good works, but we're actually pretty close to sure that you are saved by good doctrine.

[00:24:24] And I say, actually, you're not.

[00:24:27] You're saved by Jesus Christ and him alone.

[00:24:30] And what that means is, yes, we work on duty and doctrine, but if Christ is absent, if Christ

[00:24:37] is absent, then ultimately people depend upon themselves and that is to their great harm.

[00:24:44] Yeah.

[00:24:44] So Christ-centered preaching is, as you know, not trying to make Jesus magically appear in

[00:24:49] every verse.

[00:24:49] It is saying every verse is showing you your destitution and God's provision.

[00:24:54] Every verse is in some way saying the one who said he would provide a redeemer is showing

[00:24:59] you an aspect of his character and grace, and he's showing you an aspect of your need of

[00:25:04] that.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:05] So, you know, my little buzzword is fallen.

[00:25:07] There's a fallen condition that's here and God is addressing it.

[00:25:11] And the solution is not you.

[00:25:14] The solution is not you.

[00:25:16] Now, there are ways you are to respond to his solution with duty and doctrine and growing

[00:25:22] in knowledge and faithfulness.

[00:25:23] Yes.

[00:25:24] But God is telling you here in some measure that you are in need of a redeemer and that

[00:25:30] he will provide one.

[00:25:31] So, I don't mean to go into all that code and take over your interview here, but that's

[00:25:38] what Christ-centered preaching is.

[00:25:39] It's not taking out your decoder ring or your magic wand and making Jesus magically appear.

[00:25:45] It's reminding ourselves of the end, the telos, the goal of scripture, which is you are not

[00:25:52] your redeemer.

[00:25:53] God must provide him.

[00:25:54] And somehow God is showing you his character and yours right here.

[00:25:58] He must provide what you cannot.

[00:26:00] Yeah.

[00:26:01] Yeah.

[00:26:01] And so, preachers should spend time with their nose in the book, discerning, deciding, I

[00:26:09] guess, to some degree uncovering, but not too much because it's just right there.

[00:26:15] But going back to what you were saying earlier on, that also needs to be coupled, you know,

[00:26:21] with time with people or showing this care and love or even realizing that this sermon that

[00:26:28] we're working on for X amount of hours per week, it actually is to address real people's

[00:26:33] real needs and to give them the good news that it's not up to them to redeem themselves.

[00:26:37] But then, yeah.

[00:26:38] So, what do you see the connection between like the diligent work of sermon preparation

[00:26:45] and then also how this connects even to pastoral care for people?

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:50] Great question.

[00:26:51] So, let me tell you, when I began teaching in seminary, I'd been pastoring for a few years.

[00:26:57] The school in which I had graduated asked me to come back and even while I was pastoring

[00:27:02] in the area, come back and start teaching preaching.

[00:27:05] Now, when I'd been in seminary, one of the professors who had impacted me used to say,

[00:27:12] preach to needs, identify what people are struggling with, preach to needs.

[00:27:16] And I came back and I said to seminary students, I said, one of the things I've learned is you

[00:27:21] have to preach to needs.

[00:27:22] And I was surprised that they were ready to tar and feather me.

[00:27:25] And, you know, I did not recognize that in my time from leaving school, going to the pastor

[00:27:32] and coming back, that there had been a lot of discussion in the theological world about

[00:27:37] preaching to or identifying felt needs and preaching to them, which, you know, in our theological

[00:27:43] jargon, we now call anthropocentric preaching.

[00:27:46] Anthropocentric, yeah.

[00:27:47] Right?

[00:27:47] So instead of being theocentric, you become man-centric.

[00:27:51] And the start and the goal of my sermon is to address the human need.

[00:27:56] And for all of us of kind of good biblical reform theology, we know that's wrong.

[00:28:01] You know, this is no longer God glorifying, it's just human-centered.

[00:28:05] So, you know, I said to my students, well, what do you want me to say to you?

[00:28:09] Okay, don't preach what people don't need.

[00:28:11] Don't preach to their needs.

[00:28:12] Preach what they don't need.

[00:28:13] Well, they didn't want that either, of course.

[00:28:14] So I had to kind of go back to that.

[00:28:17] What am I actually saying?

[00:28:18] What am I believing theologically?

[00:28:20] The Bible from Genesis 3, 15 forward is addressing people in a fallen world, fallen creatures

[00:28:28] in a fallen condition.

[00:28:29] So instead of saying preach to needs, which could go into felt needs, anthropocentric,

[00:28:36] I said, all right, identify the fallen condition the Holy Spirit is addressing.

[00:28:41] I mean, the Holy Spirit just didn't say, oh, here's just some information for you.

[00:28:46] It has no purpose, but here's just some, you know, there's a purpose.

[00:28:50] So identify the fallen condition and then say, how is the Holy Spirit showing God's answer

[00:28:56] to that fallen condition?

[00:28:57] Now, you asked me, how does that connect to human needs and what we do as pastors?

[00:29:02] Well, what I recognize is that people often say, people who are kind of gospel or in a grace-oriented

[00:29:10] preaching, every sermon is the same.

[00:29:12] God says you should do something.

[00:29:13] You can't do it, but he'll forgive you.

[00:29:15] Try better next week.

[00:29:16] You're someone who can.

[00:29:18] Yeah.

[00:29:19] Actually, that's not what I'm saying.

[00:29:21] What I am saying, it's not just a general concept of grace every week.

[00:29:26] I'm saying the Holy Spirit wrote this text to identify a specific fallen condition that the

[00:29:34] grace of God is addressing.

[00:29:37] And Romans 15, 4, everything that was written in the past was written for us so that through

[00:29:43] endurance and the encouragement of the scriptures, we might have hope.

[00:29:46] So I want to look at that text.

[00:29:47] I'm going to say, what is the specific aspect of fallenness that was written for us so that

[00:29:53] I'm not just in a general way saying there's sin and grace.

[00:29:56] I want to take that specific aspect of human fallenness and say, how does the grace of

[00:30:02] God deal with that specific aspect of fallenness, which you and I share?

[00:30:06] Now, my goal as the pastor, not just the exegete, is to say, I've got to do the hard biblical

[00:30:13] research and exegesis of saying, what is the fallen condition of this text?

[00:30:18] What's going on there?

[00:30:19] And then I've got to say, how are we like them?

[00:30:23] There is something in, you know, look at Thomas, you know, what a terrible disciple.

[00:30:28] Aren't you glad you're not like Thomas?

[00:30:30] Such a doubter.

[00:30:31] Well, Thomas is not in the Bible so that we'll be glad that we're not like him.

[00:30:35] We doubt too.

[00:30:37] We've had the resurrection.

[00:30:38] We know about it.

[00:30:39] We have the witness of the scriptures, the testimony of Christ, and our child gets leukemia

[00:30:45] and we wonder if any of this is real or true.

[00:30:47] And we doubt.

[00:30:48] We are a lot like Thomas.

[00:30:49] We have a falling condition we share with him.

[00:30:52] And if I will do that, if I will, to your point, if I will do the hard exegesis of saying not

[00:30:58] just what general sin or general problem, but I will say, what is the specific fallen condition

[00:31:04] the Holy Spirit is addressing here that I share?

[00:31:07] I'm like those people, like that man, like that apostle, like I share something with, or the

[00:31:14] Holy Spirit wouldn't have put it there.

[00:31:15] So then when I identify that now, my exegesis is not just saying, here's facts for you to

[00:31:21] know.

[00:31:21] It is here's situations that you share, sin that you share, pride that you, whatever it

[00:31:27] is, here's a fallen condition that you share so that I can show how the grace of God deals

[00:31:32] with that.

[00:31:32] Now I'm not just telling people biblical facts, right?

[00:31:36] Here's my data dump.

[00:31:37] I'm actually pastoring people in the way that I approach the text.

[00:31:41] Here's a fallen condition.

[00:31:42] You share it.

[00:31:43] Here's how the grace of God was helping those people.

[00:31:47] And remember, you're like them.

[00:31:48] Here's how the grace of God is going to be applied to you too.

[00:31:51] It will culminate in the work of Christ.

[00:31:53] But what I need to show you is how God is showing you his grace for your fallenness by the way he's

[00:32:00] dealing with this text.

[00:32:01] It's hard exegesis that keeps the diamond of grace showing its many, many, many, many,

[00:32:07] many facets.

[00:32:08] It's not the same thing every week.

[00:32:11] It's detailed, hard exegetical work with a pastoral heart behind it.

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:18] You distinguished a few minutes ago.

[00:32:19] You said that you're not just an exegete.

[00:32:22] You're a pastor.

[00:32:23] And that's, yeah, A, I believe that.

[00:32:26] Then B, I just want that to be not even notable.

[00:32:29] I want everyone to always do this.

[00:32:32] You know, first me, but just that this can always just be something that is, it's more

[00:32:35] than just, you know, emerging from our studies with our pristine, truthful, honest, Christocentric

[00:32:42] declaration.

[00:32:43] But that it's connecting and it's really impacting people in their hearts, you know, where they

[00:32:49] live and where they work.

[00:32:52] Yeah.

[00:32:52] And for that reason, you actually have to pastor, right?

[00:32:54] I mean, you and I, at some point, always thought, you know, if the church that calls me someday

[00:32:59] will just give me 40 hours a week to work on the sermon, I will be able to produce masterpieces.

[00:33:04] It will be, and the reality is you couldn't.

[00:33:06] Because if the sermon is not connecting to people, then it may be wonderful.

[00:33:12] I like your word pristine and theology and organization, all that, but it will not touch

[00:33:16] their hearts because you don't know them.

[00:33:19] Right.

[00:33:19] And you don't know how to phrase what they are struggling with or how to connect the scriptures

[00:33:24] to what they are struggling with, or maybe don't think they're struggling with.

[00:33:28] How do you connect it to calling them to repentance?

[00:33:31] How do you connect it to their comfort?

[00:33:33] Whatever it is, it's living among God's people.

[00:33:37] So if you're just kind of isolated in your office, preparing these masterpieces, they may

[00:33:44] be good for prose, but they are not good for pastoring.

[00:33:48] That's good.

[00:33:49] So you mentioned, yeah, it's where people live and work.

[00:33:52] Your latest book that came out really, I think, aims at and achieves that goal.

[00:34:00] Your latest book is called, as you know, Grace at Work, Redeeming the Grind and Glory of Your

[00:34:06] Job.

[00:34:07] So you really bring to bear this pristine theology, et cetera, into the workplace situation.

[00:34:15] And then even into questions about like earning money, spending money,

[00:34:18] these types of things that are so common to the lives of our congregations.

[00:34:24] And then often don't really get addressed too much in our sermons and in our preaching.

[00:34:30] I guess, what prompted you to write that?

[00:34:33] And then how can you help us preachers to maybe consider doing something similar in our own pulpits?

[00:34:40] Oh, thank you.

[00:34:42] You know, Mike, a little bit of my story.

[00:34:44] When I began preaching, I've said to you, I was out of a shattered background, out of a debate

[00:34:50] performance mode.

[00:34:52] And most of the sermons I early did were just telling people, straighten up, fly right, do

[00:34:57] better.

[00:34:58] Until that preaching crushed me because I couldn't fly straight enough or do better enough for a

[00:35:05] holy God.

[00:35:05] And I knew that.

[00:35:06] My sermons crushed me.

[00:35:09] And the Lord brought me to an understanding of His grace that is my strength and my hope

[00:35:15] and my encouragement.

[00:35:17] And that grace that the Lord was teaching me ultimately became not only healing to my heart,

[00:35:28] but became what I wanted to tell people about in every aspect of their lives.

[00:35:33] So everything that I've written from that early time of just telling people, duty and doctrine,

[00:35:38] duty and doctrine, duty and doctrine, hitting them with duty and doctrine, but helping them

[00:35:42] understand how the grace of God enabled them.

[00:35:45] In fact, gave them the joy that is their strength.

[00:35:48] That everything I've done since those early days of my hard shell ministry have been to say to

[00:35:56] people, how does grace make a difference in your home, in your marriage?

[00:35:59] How does grace make a difference in your prayer life?

[00:36:01] How does grace make a difference in having to fight the hard fights of the gospel?

[00:36:06] How does grace make a difference in pastoring?

[00:36:09] And finally, how does grace make a difference in work?

[00:36:11] Every book that I've written since that time has been trying to help people see how does grace

[00:36:15] make a difference in this aspect of your life?

[00:36:18] So most people think, you know, well, you know, what does God call me to do at church,

[00:36:24] at work?

[00:36:24] Well, you know, I'm supposed to not lie, not cheat, not steal and witness on my lunch hour

[00:36:30] if possible.

[00:36:31] That's right.

[00:36:32] But what if you actually believed that what God has called you to do, his vocation, your

[00:36:37] calling was actually to take his grace into your workplace, into the community, into your

[00:36:45] family by the way that he is helping you deal with the glory and the grind of your job.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:50] And he's actually displaying his grace through you.

[00:36:53] And that's, that's his purpose in hard times, as well as an easy to hard places, hard bosses,

[00:36:57] easy bosses, easy.

[00:36:59] That is really the, the grace of God that you're displaying that work is actually worship and

[00:37:06] that I can begin to perceive it that way.

[00:37:08] Even the hard stuff, even the grindy stuff, you know, is actually part of my worship.

[00:37:13] And it's a response to his grace that he's showing through me.

[00:37:19] So what I'm trying to do in grace at work is, is yeah, you know, recognizing Sunday is

[00:37:24] for Monday, you know, it's, it's not just something isolate, but I'm really wanting people to begin

[00:37:29] to be able to rejoice in the grind as well as the glory.

[00:37:33] See, there's purpose in what God is doing in your life.

[00:37:36] And there's, there's, there's glory in even the hard stuff that God calls you to do.

[00:37:41] If you can see it from a gracious perspective.

[00:37:44] Yeah.

[00:37:45] I read John Piper's book, Don't Waste Your Life when I was back, back when it was a new

[00:37:50] book and I was a young man and it, and it really impacted me as it did, as it did many.

[00:37:54] And there's a chapter in there, I think making, making much of Christ from eight to five.

[00:37:58] And, you know, in typical Piperian fashion, it's like a list of 12 things that you could

[00:38:02] do or something like that.

[00:38:04] And number 12 was evangelize at your work, you know, and, and he, he drew out 11 other,

[00:38:12] I don't have the numbers in front of me, but whatever.

[00:38:14] It was notably the last on the list where in my mind, it's like, how do you glorify Jesus

[00:38:19] at work?

[00:38:20] I would just put number one evangelize and that's the end of the list, but he just really

[00:38:24] helped me.

[00:38:24] And then your book is an expansion of this kind of notion that there's so many ways to glorify

[00:38:29] God in addition to the obvious low hanging fruit of don't sin and preach the gospel.

[00:38:35] Yes.

[00:38:36] I mean, you know, it's, it's, uh, uh, Dorothy Sayers, you know, who writes, you know, Jesus

[00:38:41] didn't make bad tables as a carpenter.

[00:38:44] Why not?

[00:38:44] Because it was a testimony in so many ways of, uh, God's provision for him of demonstrating

[00:38:51] the excellence of crap that God had given him the skills to, to provide the materials

[00:38:56] where God's provision, everything was an aspect of the grace of God that when well handled

[00:39:01] was showing God in his dimensions of character and provision to the world.

[00:39:07] And, you know, what does God call us to do in our workplace?

[00:39:10] Well, the chief thing he calls you to do is do a good job.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:13] Um, and now if that's a burden to you, if it's something that's dishonoring to God, well,

[00:39:19] that's not going to be helpful.

[00:39:20] But if you're saying every job has its garbage detail, we know that every job, even pastoring

[00:39:25] has its garbage detail.

[00:39:27] We, we know that, but if what I'm doing with the late last night at eldest.

[00:39:32] And what am I doing?

[00:39:33] I'm trying to help a church deal with hard things so that people can worship, you know, if

[00:39:37] I can see the, the end of what I'm accomplishing.

[00:39:41] And I know we're running close on time here, Mike.

[00:39:44] So I just, I just think I give that example in the book that made such an impact on me.

[00:39:47] I went to a cheese factory one time.

[00:39:50] That sounds so silly, but I did, you know, just these, these, and I watched a man sit

[00:39:54] by conveyor belt and his one job was about every 10th block of cheese that went by.

[00:39:58] He had to straighten it.

[00:40:00] So it would go right into the packaging.

[00:40:01] And I thought, oh, I'm glad that's not my job.

[00:40:04] Now, I don't know anything about him or his intellect or abilities or skills or interests,

[00:40:09] but I have to think if he would do what I encourage all of us to do.

[00:40:13] And that's, and that is take the George Bailey test from that old, old movie, you know, of

[00:40:18] the Chris Simpson movie.

[00:40:19] It's a wonderful life.

[00:40:21] And Clarence, the angel is winning his wings.

[00:40:23] I'm not defending this theology.

[00:40:25] Wonderful theology, by the way.

[00:40:27] But, but what does George Bailey see?

[00:40:29] He sees what would have happened had he not lived.

[00:40:32] Yeah.

[00:40:33] And I think what would happen if that man were not straightening those little blocks

[00:40:36] of cheeses, they wouldn't fit right in the packaging.

[00:40:38] They would get bacteria.

[00:40:40] They would poison people.

[00:40:42] They'd get sick.

[00:40:44] People would die.

[00:40:45] The company would close.

[00:40:46] The community would not have industry.

[00:40:48] The families would not have provision.

[00:40:50] But because he does his job well, the grace of God is flowing.

[00:40:56] And if he's able to understand that and to express it, then the job becomes an aspect of

[00:41:02] worship for the world to see and for we to experience.

[00:41:07] Yeah.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:09] Well, okay.

[00:41:09] Well, thinking about that cheese organizer.

[00:41:12] And I remember when I, when I read that story in your book, I think, yeah, you said that

[00:41:17] you thought you didn't want that job.

[00:41:19] And I thought, oh boy, I would love that job.

[00:41:22] Especially after your last night's meeting.

[00:41:25] Exactly.

[00:41:25] Exactly.

[00:41:26] Especially after your last night's meeting.

[00:41:27] I just want some headphones and I just want to adjust cheese and that's it.

[00:41:30] And, but anyway, I'm, it can glorify God in every profession.

[00:41:34] Um, so maybe just as a final question.

[00:41:38] Um, so Dr.

[00:41:39] Chappell, how are you trying to, to improve?

[00:41:43] So like you still preach sermons and you probably want them to, to be on an arc getting better

[00:41:49] and better.

[00:41:49] What's, what's like an issue or two that you're still working on right now?

[00:41:54] So I'll say two things and, and you must know, uh, I mean, my job has recently changed.

[00:41:58] So I got rocks in my heads here.

[00:42:00] So, and the rocks in my head, I, I was pastoring a wonderful church for the last decade.

[00:42:05] And, uh, and then at some point, um, some leaders in our denomination, uh, ask if I would,

[00:42:14] uh, uh, take the position of leading in the denomination.

[00:42:17] So I went from trying to lead one church to trying to lead 2000 churches.

[00:42:21] So that's why I said, I got rocks in my head, but, um, here's, here's what I know is important.

[00:42:29] I, I have, I have to go into churches where I don't know people and speak about common needs

[00:42:37] so that I'm not just doing performance things again.

[00:42:40] How is God ministering to this people?

[00:42:43] I'm also trying to steer, can't overstate that, but provide right values and priorities

[00:42:50] at a denominational level and have people pull together when we're actually being pulled apart

[00:42:57] by lots of polarities and lots of political differences.

[00:43:00] Sadly, our people tend to know their politics better than they know their theology.

[00:43:05] And how do, how do we unite around the gospel, be charitable to people we differ with and actually

[00:43:13] still encourage ministering to the hurting and reaching the lost?

[00:43:18] I must tell you, I find that very hard.

[00:43:21] Um, I, I'm learning, I think better to do it, but I'm still learning what it means to

[00:43:28] minister individually and corporately at the same time.

[00:43:32] That's my current challenge.

[00:43:34] I know that's not everybody's, but I think there's some dimension of that for everybody,

[00:43:38] wherever you're pastoring, you are trying to, to reach individuals and corporately at the

[00:43:44] same time, create health.

[00:43:47] And you, you can't neglect either, right?

[00:43:51] So in your messages, you have, you have to speak to individuals, but you have to reach

[00:43:55] the body and actually in some ways, try to bring values to the body at the same time.

[00:44:01] You can overdo either, right?

[00:44:03] I'm just going to talk to hurting people.

[00:44:05] And then the church begins to wander, right?

[00:44:08] What are we supposed to be thinking and doing?

[00:44:10] Or you can just talk as the CEO, right?

[00:44:13] We're just going to corporately accomplish.

[00:44:14] This is the vision for this year.

[00:44:16] These five things we're going to do.

[00:44:18] And, and I mean, you and I know the mantra of kind of moderating pastoring, you know,

[00:44:22] of how you're supposed to have the vision values and mission.

[00:44:26] Um, and all that's necessarily important, but not at the expensive and in every sermon,

[00:44:33] something to reach the hurting.

[00:44:36] And in every sermon, something to give us direction as a body and, and that I'm still learning to do.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:45] Okay.

[00:44:45] Well, it's a, it's a unique position that you are in, but, um, I definitely, what a, what a unique

[00:44:51] challenge.

[00:44:51] Yeah.

[00:44:52] Connecting back all the stuff you're saying at the first part about how preaching is an

[00:44:56] expression of pastoring a local group of people.

[00:44:59] And then, and then now the challenges of probably being a serial guest preacher.

[00:45:04] Um, but you're up for the challenge.

[00:45:07] And, uh, I heard someone say that, uh, there is a unlimited grace.

[00:45:12] So, uh, I beg you draw on that further.

[00:45:15] Thank you so much for your time.

[00:45:16] I really appreciate that.

[00:45:17] I hope you can go eat a more nutritious lunch right after this.

[00:45:20] Thank you, Mike.

[00:45:21] And I hope you find grace at your work too.

[00:45:24] Yeah, it's there.

[00:45:26] Hard elders meetings.

[00:45:27] Yes, it's, it's there.

[00:45:28] It's there.

[00:45:29] Well, cool.

[00:45:30] Thanks.

[00:45:30] Um, I hope that this episode and all the way to the Expositors Collective helps you to grow

[00:45:34] in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:45:38] Thanks, Dr. Schavel.

[00:45:39] Thank you, Mike.

[00:45:41] Well, thanks so much for listening all the way to the end.

[00:45:44] Wasn't that an encouraging conversation?

[00:45:46] Uh, maybe you've been a long time subscriber to the show.

[00:45:49] Maybe you listened to this, uh, back in 2022 when it first came out, or maybe this is your

[00:45:56] first time hearing this, uh, episode from the vaults, but I'm glad you did.

[00:46:00] Hopefully it encourages you.

[00:46:02] And hopefully as you are planning for what ministry in 2025 looks like, that these types of insights

[00:46:10] are never far from your heart and your mind.

[00:46:14] Well, in these final days of 2024, uh, perhaps you're looking for places that you can be generous

[00:46:23] to, uh, may I humbly suggest that the Expositors Collective is a noble cause for you to consider

[00:46:30] as you think through your year and giving.

[00:46:34] Uh, we're part of the Calvary Global Network, a registered charity.

[00:46:38] Uh, we are far more than just a podcast.

[00:46:40] We're a traveling preacher equipping ministry.

[00:46:44] We've recently been in Uganda.

[00:46:47] We're making plans towards Mexico.

[00:46:49] We've been in Eastern Europe in Serbia earlier in 2024, and we'll be in Colorado in 2025 and

[00:46:58] more locations to come.

[00:47:00] So we're investing into the next generation of Christ-centered biblical expositors.

[00:47:06] If you'd like to help us, uh, pay the bills and put out these podcast episodes and travel

[00:47:12] and equip and encourage, well, you can visit our website, expositorscollective.org.

[00:47:18] On the left side of the page, there is a support or a give button, and that will bring you into

[00:47:25] a portal where you're able to make a once-off donation at the end of the year, or maybe even

[00:47:32] a standing small donation throughout the year.

[00:47:35] Heck, how about a standing large donation?

[00:47:38] Um, but anyway, thanks for considering it.

[00:47:41] I hope that what we do here and what we do in our various capacities on Facebook and Twitter

[00:47:48] and Instagram, that they're all just these little encouragements to help you grow in your

[00:47:54] personal study and your public proclamation of God's word.

[00:47:58] See you next year.

[00:48:01] This podcast is a part of CGN Media, a podcast network that points to Christ.

[00:48:05] We are supported by listeners like you.

[00:48:07] To help us create more great shows, visit cgnmedia.org slash support.