Preaching the Book of Hebrews with Sigurd Grindheim

[00:00:00] I think preaching should aim at making the word personal and proclaiming the word so that

[00:00:08] it addresses us, sort of strikes us.

[00:00:12] It says on Mary-Annex that when Peter was preaching it struck them in the heart.

[00:00:18] And I think that's what preaching should aim to do.

[00:00:22] And I think for that to be possible, the preacher has to be the first one to be struck in the

[00:00:30] heart by the word of God and by the message.

[00:00:34] And when that happens, the preacher can also communicate that power of the word of God.

[00:00:42] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, episode 327.

[00:00:47] I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:49] And our guest for this week is Dr. Sigurd Greenheim.

[00:00:55] And I get a chance to talk to a lot of smart people, smart preachers, smart seminary graduates,

[00:01:05] wise and learned people.

[00:01:07] But sometimes I get to talk to actual scholars, real life professors.

[00:01:14] And I love speaking with educators about topics that they've put a lot of work into.

[00:01:21] And Sigurd is a professor in the Western Norway University, and he lectures on applied sciences.

[00:01:32] He also earned a PhD in the New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

[00:01:39] and has written and published so much stuff.

[00:01:44] In the show notes you could find some of his books, but we talk about his recently published

[00:01:52] massive commentary on The Letter to the Hebrews put out by our friends at Airdman's Publishing

[00:02:02] Company.

[00:02:03] And I'm just so thankful that I get a chance to talk to him about the authorship of Hebrews

[00:02:08] and then how the Book of Hebrews thinks about preaching, and then even how preachers should

[00:02:18] learn or even preach the book of Hebrews.

[00:02:23] This conversation starts out pretty scholarly and scholastic.

[00:02:28] And then in the second half it actually gets very personal, very paternal.

[00:02:35] And I think that anyone is going to benefit from this, whether you are currently preaching

[00:02:41] through Hebrews, whether you're thinking about preaching through Hebrews, or if you

[00:02:46] are an adopted son of God and are wondering what it means to be brought into God's family,

[00:02:53] there's something for everybody in this conversation.

[00:02:57] If you're listening to this interview when it's new, on the day that this is scheduled

[00:03:02] to be released I'm probably going to be on an airplane.

[00:03:07] I'll be heading to California.

[00:03:09] We have our upcoming Expositors Collective in-person training event.

[00:03:15] It's in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[00:03:17] It's in a town called Pleasanton in the East Bay Area.

[00:03:21] And I hope you've booked your spot.

[00:03:23] I hope that you've got your ticket.

[00:03:26] It's going to be walk-up rates for those of you who have chosen not to register but just

[00:03:33] show up on the day and there's always some of you.

[00:03:36] Guys, let me tell you a secret.

[00:03:38] We're going to charge you more money.

[00:03:40] So here's what you should do if you're thinking of coming, if you're planning on coming,

[00:03:44] register now at ExpositorsCollective.com and you'll get the actual rate instead of

[00:03:49] the walk-up rate.

[00:03:51] I'm trying to save you money here.

[00:03:53] I'm also trying to make sure that we have the right number of lanyards, the right number

[00:03:57] of name tags.

[00:03:58] So if you're planning on coming, make sure you're registered and we're going to have a

[00:04:02] great time together.

[00:04:03] I can't wait to meet some of you.

[00:04:06] I can't wait for you to meet the other members of the Expositors Collective leadership

[00:04:10] team.

[00:04:11] I can't wait for you to hear from Pastor Heath Hardesty, Tim Brown, and other

[00:04:17] recent guests on the show.

[00:04:20] We want to help you grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:04:25] If you follow us on Instagram, I'm sure on Friday and Saturday, the stories will be

[00:04:31] getting filled with little glimpses and insights of what's going on in Pleasanton.

[00:04:36] So if you can't be there, the next Bex thing is just stay glued to your phone, waiting

[00:04:42] for the next photo to be uploaded.

[00:04:45] All right, here's my conversation with Dr. Sigurd Greenheim about the Epistle to the Hebrews.

[00:04:53] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective podcast.

[00:05:01] I'm excited to be speaking with Sigurd Greenheim.

[00:05:05] Is that close enough?

[00:05:06] Close enough, yeah.

[00:05:07] How would you, can you coach us on the pronunciation of your name, please?

[00:05:12] I pronounce it Sigurd Greenheim.

[00:05:15] Wonderful.

[00:05:16] I'm excited to be speaking with Dr. Greenheim.

[00:05:19] And we, yeah, I've come to know your writings through the Pillar New Testament commentary,

[00:05:28] the letter to the Hebrews.

[00:05:30] I've really enjoyed dipping in to this monumental book.

[00:05:37] One of the opening questions that we always ask on this podcast is, could you tell us

[00:05:42] about the first time you ever preached a sermon?

[00:05:44] It's kind of a nice way to get to know the various guests that have been on the show.

[00:05:48] Yeah, sure.

[00:05:49] First of all, thank you for having me on your podcast.

[00:05:54] My first sermon was when I was 19.

[00:05:59] I had just started at a seminary and we were on the west coast of Norway.

[00:06:09] We were doing some kind of preaching tour as a group of students and I was preaching at

[00:06:18] a mission group there.

[00:06:21] And I chose as my text, Ephesians chapter two, verses one to ten, because I wanted to talk

[00:06:28] about the grace of God in Jesus Christ and about justification, which was a biblical teaching

[00:06:40] that had become very precious to me just around that time.

[00:06:47] So I don't really remember very much else about the sermon other than that I was excited

[00:06:56] to be able to share about the grace that God shows us in Jesus Christ.

[00:07:01] OK, so you remember that it happened?

[00:07:05] Yes.

[00:07:06] And do you remember the feeling of stepping down off the platform?

[00:07:11] Did you feel, oh, that went great or oh, what a disaster?

[00:07:16] I was very nervous.

[00:07:19] And so I remember that, but I don't remember very much.

[00:07:23] Else in our regions are not supremely expressive when it comes to feedback to preachers.

[00:07:33] So I don't really remember anything of the feedback or anything.

[00:07:40] So, yeah.

[00:07:45] Wonderful. Well, what a great story.

[00:07:47] And there's been many and much ongoing ministry and Bible handling and Bible teaching and preaching since then.

[00:07:59] I haven't asked about your most recent sermon, but I'm sure you'd be able to remember that with more clarity, I'm sure.

[00:08:06] Yeah, that may have been a sermon on the epistle of James that I gave here at my local church.

[00:08:15] Yeah, before Christmas.

[00:08:19] OK, we'll also go back to that one at the end.

[00:08:22] But yeah, so as I mentioned, yeah, I've become aware of you through this, you know, how many pages is this?

[00:08:28] The 770 plus page, like great commentary on the epistle of the Hebrews.

[00:08:36] So kind of the question is like what brought that about?

[00:08:40] What caused you to write so many pages on Hebrews?

[00:08:44] And what's the value or the significance of the book of Hebrews to Christians today?

[00:08:51] But well, it's an extremely rich letter.

[00:08:57] And I think perhaps it's a little bit neglected in kind of contemporary preaching, at least in my experience.

[00:09:06] And perhaps it is because the letter contains such a sustained argument.

[00:09:13] You know, you almost have to read the whole letter in order to get what it is talking about.

[00:09:22] It's difficult to just pick out a passage and focus on that because it's really an argument that builds from beginning to end.

[00:09:32] And so maybe that makes it a little bit more challenging to preach on.

[00:09:37] I don't know.

[00:09:38] But in any case, I was asked to write the commentary, which came as a surprise to me because I had not focused in my previous scholarship on Hebrews.

[00:09:52] But the opportunity was just too good to pass up because I could kind of start with that.

[00:09:59] I could start from scratch without any preconceived ideas because I had previously committed myself in writing

[00:10:07] or anything to any particular interpretation.

[00:10:11] So I could kind of start from scratch and just delve into this extremely rich letter.

[00:10:18] It was a fascinating experience, really.

[00:10:21] So I think I went beyond the word limit that publishers gave me.

[00:10:30] And even though according to Jay Carson who writes the preface,

[00:10:35] I have a reputation for that lucid brevity.

[00:10:39] Yes, absolutely.

[00:10:41] I was going to I highlighted that I was going to ask you about that.

[00:10:45] So I guess that contradicts the length of the commentary to some extent.

[00:10:50] But yeah, Hebrews just has so much theology and so much so much richness in its testimony about Christ,

[00:11:01] about his nature.

[00:11:03] I think there is hardly any writing in the New Testament that emphasizes so much both the genuine humanity of Christ and at the same time his divinity.

[00:11:17] So there's a strong emphasis on that.

[00:11:20] And of course, the extended discussion of his work as an atonement for our sins is also very rich.

[00:11:31] And the letter to the Hebrews.

[00:11:33] And so a lot of good stuff.

[00:11:38] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:39] And yeah, what would you say it's like pastoral impact is like the author?

[00:11:47] What do you think the hope or the goal of that is?

[00:11:52] It's a warning against apostasy because it appears that the audience is tempted to leave to the faith.

[00:12:01] And the answer is warning them against the consequences of that.

[00:12:07] But above all, it's a positive and an expectation based on the value of the gift that we have received in Jesus Christ.

[00:12:19] So the argument is basically you would be crazy.

[00:12:23] It is through the way such a wonderful gift that we have received in Jesus Christ.

[00:12:29] Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:31] Yeah. OK.

[00:12:31] And so this this message, it concludes in chapter 13 in verse 22.

[00:12:41] And the author actually, could I briefly say who is your take on who the author is?

[00:12:48] Everyone has a I think people would be mad at me if I interviewed you and didn't ask, you know, for you, you know,

[00:12:55] it's not the most important thing.

[00:12:56] But what's your take?

[00:12:58] Who do you think wrote this book?

[00:12:59] Yeah, every time I told people I was writing a commentary on Hebrews, they wanted to know who wrote it.

[00:13:06] Yeah, it's a standard question, I'm sure.

[00:13:08] And as far as we can guess, I think the best guess we can make is that it is a policy.

[00:13:18] There are some arguments that point in that direction.

[00:13:23] And of course, the weakness with that hypothesis is that we have no early church evidence that points to Apollos at all.

[00:13:32] It's just some indications that the author may have been from Alexandria.

[00:13:37] Like we know that Apollos was that he was.

[00:13:41] I think the author was rather close companion, Paul.

[00:13:47] And of course, he was learned in the scriptures as we read about the palace in the book of Acts and perhaps also,

[00:13:56] where I think most likely also well educated in Hellenistic Jewish philosophy.

[00:14:05] And I think it shines through.

[00:14:07] And actually times also ends in writing.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:11] Well, yes.

[00:14:12] Can I quote you?

[00:14:14] He says, while the author of Hebrews was most likely a male second generation Christian who had been strongly influenced by the apostle Paul.

[00:14:22] His identity is unknown.

[00:14:24] We could do no more than guess, but as far as guesses go, Apollos is best.

[00:14:29] Yes, I see fighting and I said it myself.

[00:14:32] Yes.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] Yeah.

[00:14:36] Well, of course, forgive me for that.

[00:14:38] I'm sure it's just maybe you're tired of giving that answer over and over again.

[00:14:42] But, you know, people want to know.

[00:14:43] People want to know your thoughts.

[00:14:44] No, it's intriguing.

[00:14:46] I have spent a lot of time myself pondering it.

[00:14:50] Yeah.

[00:14:51] And of course, we don't know.

[00:14:52] It's just a guess.

[00:14:54] So but it's fun.

[00:14:55] It's fun to guess sometimes.

[00:14:57] Sure.

[00:14:58] OK.

[00:14:58] So then this second generation male Christian, probably Apollos, possibly Apollos in Hebrews 1322.

[00:15:08] He he says, you know, hey, this is a short exhortation.

[00:15:14] And.

[00:15:17] Yeah, I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation for I have written to you briefly.

[00:15:23] I've heard people, you know, explain maybe you could comment on this that, you know,

[00:15:27] the word for exhortation is also used elsewhere to describe like Christian preaching.

[00:15:32] So I guess my thought is my question is this is would you understand

[00:15:36] the epistle of Hebrews to be a sermon?

[00:15:39] And then if so, is it a is it a model sermon for us?

[00:15:45] Yeah.

[00:15:45] Again, we don't really know.

[00:15:50] But Hebrews doesn't look like a letter.

[00:15:53] It doesn't have a letter opening and it doesn't really feel like a letter.

[00:15:58] So scholars now think that it was originally an oral address.

[00:16:03] And there are some scholars that have

[00:16:07] looked more closely at some characteristics that resemble

[00:16:12] other Hellenistic Jewish sermons.

[00:16:15] And to me, those similarities are not extremely decisive,

[00:16:20] like the fact that he changes from the first to the second person

[00:16:24] that he uses the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

[00:16:28] These are things that we also find in all the other New Testament letters.

[00:16:32] And we have no doubt that they are real letters.

[00:16:35] So I think the strongest argument is that it doesn't really look like a letter.

[00:16:41] And it seems especially since he calls it a word of excitation

[00:16:45] and that it may have been something that originally was delivered orally.

[00:16:52] So it is now common to refer to Hebrews as a sermon

[00:16:58] that was later dispatched as a letter

[00:17:03] and perhaps equipped with the greetings at the end of the chapter 13

[00:17:09] to make it a little bit more letter-like.

[00:17:14] But it feels more like an oral address.

[00:17:18] And I write in my introduction that it is the earliest sermon

[00:17:26] that has survived in its unabridged form.

[00:17:30] We have many sermons in the Book of Acts, but they are very short.

[00:17:35] And we learned that Paul had the habit of preaching for such a long time

[00:17:39] that people fell asleep.

[00:17:41] So he probably preached for much longer than

[00:17:45] abbreviated forms that we have in Acts.

[00:17:48] But in Hebrews, we have what looks like an unabridged

[00:17:53] sermon from the first century.

[00:17:55] So that's very, very fascinating.

[00:17:57] And it has some characteristics in common with

[00:18:03] modern sermons, especially that it is focused on a text

[00:18:08] Psalm 110, verse four about

[00:18:13] you are a high priest, according to the pattern of Melchizedek,

[00:18:19] which is quoted multiple times in Hebrews.

[00:18:23] And it is really being expulsed and explained starting in chapter five.

[00:18:29] But the author alludes to Psalm 110 already

[00:18:34] in the very beginning, where he mentions that the son

[00:18:40] asked her purification for sins.

[00:18:43] He sat down at the right hand of the father,

[00:18:45] which alludes to also Psalm 110.

[00:18:47] So we see how this is the text that he preached on.

[00:18:54] And he doesn't begin the sermon with a joke.

[00:18:59] He was only a preacher student today,

[00:19:03] perhaps because he felt that the subject matter was too serious

[00:19:09] for joking, because it

[00:19:13] it seems that he was addressing the danger of

[00:19:17] it's falling away from the faith.

[00:19:18] So it was really a matter of life and death.

[00:19:23] So but we see how he is also

[00:19:29] an intermingling exposition

[00:19:34] of the Bible and application, if you will,

[00:19:38] or more specific exhortations or direct

[00:19:42] and exhortations to the audience that they should not throw away

[00:19:46] their confidence that they should step forward

[00:19:51] to the heavenly throne with with confidence

[00:19:56] and not throw away their confession

[00:20:01] and not imitate those from the wilderness generation

[00:20:08] that fell away from the Lord

[00:20:11] when they were tested in the wilderness.

[00:20:14] And so there is a very interesting

[00:20:20] intermingling of explanation of the biblical text

[00:20:24] and direct application and exhortation to the audience.

[00:20:28] So it has a lot of good qualities of sermon

[00:20:35] perhaps a little bit different in terms of style

[00:20:39] and the way it is done

[00:20:43] than modern sermons would in terms of

[00:20:46] part of the nature of the sermon.

[00:20:48] I think there is a lot that is also important today.

[00:20:53] Yeah, yeah, thank you.

[00:20:55] You mentioned earlier that

[00:20:59] Hebrews does have a sustained argument from from beginning to end.

[00:21:03] And again, for that reason, maybe it doesn't lend itself

[00:21:05] towards preaching small bits of it.

[00:21:08] Would you believe that our sermons today

[00:21:12] should have a sustained argument from beginning to end?

[00:21:17] Well, there are so many different ways of preaching.

[00:21:22] I think it is good for a sermon to be coherent.

[00:21:27] But I hear many different kinds of sermons myself

[00:21:30] and they speak to me in different ways.

[00:21:35] And some, you know, they function more on an emotional level

[00:21:42] whereas others are focusing more on the teaching

[00:21:47] and explaining something in the Bible.

[00:21:51] And I think just like there are many

[00:21:55] different forms that make up the New Testament

[00:21:59] and the Old Testament, I think there are many different forms

[00:22:03] that should be used in Christian preaching today as well.

[00:22:09] But I think that a sermon should have a coherent message.

[00:22:18] Otherwise, otherwise it's difficult to follow it.

[00:22:25] But there are many ways that that can be done.

[00:22:27] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:28] I really appreciate your diplomatic answer in that.

[00:22:33] So, yes, of course sermons should make sense.

[00:22:37] But some people like to do it different ways.

[00:22:41] Very. Yeah, I really appreciate that diplomacy on display there.

[00:22:45] Well, I come from a background in Norway where

[00:22:50] a lot of preaching was storytelling

[00:22:54] piled together and I have gained a lot

[00:22:58] from that kind of preaching myself.

[00:23:01] Of course, when I studied at Trinity Evangelical

[00:23:05] and Divinity School in the US and I was teaching there

[00:23:09] also for a few years, we emphasized a lot

[00:23:13] and expository preaching and I came to love

[00:23:18] that form of preaching, of course.

[00:23:23] But I value both kinds because I have

[00:23:28] benefited a lot from both kinds in my own Christian life.

[00:23:33] Yeah, well, I appreciate that.

[00:23:35] As you know, this is the Expositors Collective podcast.

[00:23:39] So we definitely have a preference towards expository preaching.

[00:23:43] But perhaps you are uniquely able to

[00:23:48] speak to us expository preaching enthusiasts

[00:23:52] about like what is the value that the storytelling sermons

[00:23:56] have for us and why like,

[00:24:00] yeah, maybe to keep us from being dismissive

[00:24:03] of different styles of preaching.

[00:24:05] How have you benefited from the other styles of preaching?

[00:24:10] Well, I paint a picture

[00:24:13] and they allow you to

[00:24:17] feel the message and to

[00:24:20] experience the message in a different way.

[00:24:26] I appreciate very much the

[00:24:30] sermon that

[00:24:32] leaves you with a better understanding of the text.

[00:24:36] And sometimes when I

[00:24:38] have been teaching and preaching myself,

[00:24:41] sometimes I ask the students, do you think the audience would go away

[00:24:46] from that sermon?

[00:24:47] And the next time they read the text in the Bible,

[00:24:50] do you think that they would have a better understanding of the text?

[00:24:55] And if the answer is no,

[00:24:57] then I feel back to something that maybe they should think about.

[00:25:01] Yeah.

[00:25:02] So I certainly

[00:25:06] I certainly think there is great value to preaching

[00:25:09] that brings the audience into the scriptures

[00:25:14] and

[00:25:15] inhabit the scriptures in a new way.

[00:25:20] But at the same time, it can be done in in so many different

[00:25:24] ways. And some kind of sermons let you

[00:25:28] understand the message in the new way and some sermons let you feel it

[00:25:33] in a new way. And I think both are valuable.

[00:25:36] Yeah, well, thank you.

[00:25:37] Yeah, I want to pull in your your insights and your experiences

[00:25:42] having been on different parts of the world

[00:25:45] where different kinds of preaching is more predominant.

[00:25:47] So yeah, thank you.

[00:25:48] Thank you for that unplanned excursus.

[00:25:51] But also just to say it's the expository preachers who buy your books,

[00:25:55] probably right?

[00:25:59] I suspect it would be.

[00:26:02] Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:04] So I actually actually had a question.

[00:26:06] Yeah, I kind of wrote down that you

[00:26:10] accidentally referenced earlier on like I noticed that

[00:26:13] D. A. Carson in the preface.

[00:26:15] Yeah, he said that you had a lucid brevity

[00:26:18] that you were famous for having lucid brevity.

[00:26:22] How can preachers and communicators like aim for that type of lucid brevity?

[00:26:30] I wish I knew.

[00:26:32] Yeah.

[00:26:34] I think I think it has to do with the personality a lot, you know,

[00:26:38] and we have different personalities and God uses all our different personalities

[00:26:44] and to the extent to the extent that I actually

[00:26:48] do right with lucid brevity.

[00:26:51] I guess it's just my personality that comes through.

[00:26:56] And in that way, I'm not sure that all my rambling in this podcast

[00:27:02] gives any impression of lucid brevity.

[00:27:04] So I'm a little apprehensive that you're bringing that up.

[00:27:08] But I think God is using our gifts individually

[00:27:17] and yeah, I think preachers should be sensitive to the individual

[00:27:27] and our gifts that they have been given by God.

[00:27:33] And so some people are gifted with brevity and some are not.

[00:27:38] But all of it comes from, I think when you truly know something

[00:27:44] or you know what you want to get across

[00:27:46] then I think that does no one's ever accused me of being lucid or brevity, you know.

[00:27:52] But but if they did, it would come from like such a mastery of the of the subject

[00:27:57] that you communicate what you want to say because you know it's not up there

[00:28:02] in the pulpit kind of figuring things out as you go or you start a sentence

[00:28:06] and you wonder where it's going to go.

[00:28:08] If anyone's ever going to be lucid or brief, it comes from mastery of the subject, I'd say.

[00:28:14] You know, when I was in seminary in Norway, they used to say that

[00:28:18] if your sermon is well prepared, then it takes 20 minutes.

[00:28:21] If it is poorly prepared, it takes 40 minutes.

[00:28:24] And if you're unprepared, it takes an hour.

[00:28:27] And so I think there is something to what you're saying.

[00:28:31] It helps to be prepared well.

[00:28:33] Yeah, yeah. That's that's excellent.

[00:28:36] Well, kind of going back into the book of Hebrews

[00:28:43] on a couple of different moments in the book of Hebrews, the author, Apollo,

[00:28:48] or whoever it is, like speaks about like the word of God.

[00:28:52] I suppose how do you understand having put a lot of work into this book?

[00:28:57] Like what does the author have to think about the word of God?

[00:29:01] And then even what does like preaching of the word of God look like in his understanding?

[00:29:07] Yeah, it's fascinating with Hebrews because it quotes so much

[00:29:11] from the Old Testament, I think more than any other New Testament

[00:29:16] book at least relative to its length.

[00:29:19] And what's interesting also is that you see the father speaking,

[00:29:23] you see the song speaking and you see the Holy Spirit speaking.

[00:29:28] And everything that they are speaking is

[00:29:32] quotations from the Old Testament.

[00:29:35] When Jesus is speaking in Hebrews, it is from the Psalms usually.

[00:29:40] And the same thing with the father is speaking the words of the Psalms.

[00:29:47] So I think you see the authors.

[00:29:51] High view of scripture, if you want to call it that,

[00:29:54] that these are the words that are spoken by God.

[00:29:57] These are the words that are spoken by the Holy Spirit.

[00:30:01] So

[00:30:02] and we see also a very intense attention to the details of scripture.

[00:30:13] And the conviction that carries it is that

[00:30:20] this is not just empty words, but these are words that are

[00:30:26] spoken by God and therefore

[00:30:29] I don't know what they say, then it means something.

[00:30:33] Yeah, so so so I see a very strong emphasis on

[00:30:39] the presence of God really being communicated through his words in the Bible.

[00:30:44] And and that shines through in Hebrews, I think.

[00:30:49] Yeah. And then I'm also thinking of chapter 13 again

[00:30:55] when he writes, remember those who rule over you,

[00:30:57] who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow,

[00:31:01] consider the outcome of their conduct.

[00:31:04] So is that kind of communicating that

[00:31:09] that even the preaching of the word of God is God's word,

[00:31:13] speaking God's word to them?

[00:31:16] Would you have a higher view of even preaching, would you say?

[00:31:22] Yes, that's an interesting point, of course,

[00:31:25] that and is a conviction that we see several places in the New Testament.

[00:31:31] Those who are preaching should preach like the word of God.

[00:31:37] And so

[00:31:39] the responsibility to

[00:31:42] for those who are serving as pastors and preachers in the congregation too.

[00:31:48] Yeah, make sure that they are not drawing from their own

[00:31:53] ideas, but they are drawing from scripture and drawing from the word of God.

[00:31:58] And I think we see that conviction reflected there without it really being

[00:32:03] elaborated upon. It's just a presupposition

[00:32:06] that those who are preaching are preaching the word of God.

[00:32:09] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:11] Well, thanks for that.

[00:32:12] Well, well now to perhaps maybe

[00:32:15] leave Hebrew or actually kind of go into your personal story or your personal

[00:32:20] life as I was reading through the introduction to this,

[00:32:23] you spoke about how you became a father during the writing of this commentary.

[00:32:31] So I wonder, like, has the birth of of prayer as it influence your understanding

[00:32:38] of of sonship or fatherhood while writing this commentary?

[00:32:42] Yes, it was interesting that my son was born

[00:32:48] while I was working on the first chapters of Hebrews, where there is a lot of

[00:32:54] emphasis on

[00:32:57] the sonship of Jesus and

[00:33:03] experiencing myself for the first time all the time to be a father and to have a son

[00:33:14] and to have this experience of

[00:33:19] well, first of all, to

[00:33:24] have a feeling of loving someone that I was not

[00:33:28] able to imagine before my son was born.

[00:33:35] But also this

[00:33:40] idea that is very prevalent in chapter one in Hebrews of the

[00:33:47] union or the

[00:33:51] identity is not a good word, but identity of almost between the father and the son.

[00:33:59] Of course, in Hebrews, we read about how the

[00:34:04] son was the effulgence or the radiance of God's glory and an imprint of his being.

[00:34:11] So you have this

[00:34:13] idea that the son

[00:34:19] represents the father perfectly.

[00:34:22] Of course, human fatherhood is

[00:34:25] a shadow of this kind of fatherhood.

[00:34:29] But still it gives us, I think,

[00:34:33] an idea of this

[00:34:36] sense that my son, in a way, is a little bit me.

[00:34:42] He is his own person.

[00:34:45] That is very clear sometimes, but he is also me.

[00:34:48] He's a continuation of me

[00:34:51] and to experience that was something that I was not in any way prepared for.

[00:34:56] And it was just very fascinating and see how

[00:34:59] that experience is something that I think tells us something.

[00:35:07] All right, it's dangerous to use these kinds of analogies because

[00:35:13] God's fatherhood is in a sense unique, but at the same time it is possible to talk

[00:35:18] about God's fatherhood because there is a lot of similarity with our fatherhood.

[00:35:23] And I thought that was very fascinating to see how I could feel this oneness

[00:35:30] and at the same time, differentiation, oneness and differentiation at the same time with my son.

[00:35:36] And I thought about that a lot in connection with

[00:35:41] Hebrews's exposition of

[00:35:45] the fatherhood of God and the sonship of Jesus.

[00:35:48] How there is a oneness and a differentiation

[00:35:53] and at the same time there.

[00:35:56] Yeah, thank you.

[00:35:57] Yeah, I knew there was more to it.

[00:35:59] I saw the dedication to him and then there was like a sentence later on kind of mixed

[00:36:04] in there and I wanted to pull on that string.

[00:36:06] I kind of knew that there was there was more.

[00:36:09] There was more there and you're right because it's

[00:36:14] we want to be cautious about taking our human experiences and then pressing

[00:36:20] the Bible into them and then interpreting the Bible via our human experiences.

[00:36:25] But the language is deliberate and it's meant to evoke something in us.

[00:36:29] And it seems that that happened to you.

[00:36:33] Yeah, yeah, I did not develop this, of course, in my commentary because

[00:36:39] it was hidden in the introduction.

[00:36:40] It was

[00:36:44] in my commentary it was intended to be based on exegesis and observations

[00:36:51] in the text.

[00:36:52] But in terms of my personal appreciation for the message, it was a very

[00:36:58] powerful

[00:37:01] experience that I had sort of coincided with what I was reading about in Hebrews.

[00:37:08] Yeah, thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:37:13] Well, as our conversation draws to a close,

[00:37:17] we start every every interview by asking about the first sermon you have

[00:37:22] approached and it's always kind of a great way to conclude the conversations

[00:37:26] by asking how are you currently trying to improve as a preacher?

[00:37:32] So I know that you preached in James back in December, but you're probably

[00:37:37] going to preach again in the future.

[00:37:38] And how are you hoping to get a little bit better each time?

[00:37:44] Well, I think being a preacher

[00:37:47] ultimately is about talking to God and about

[00:37:53] communicating

[00:37:56] from God with the audience.

[00:38:00] So

[00:38:02] I think the most important way to

[00:38:08] prepare myself as a preacher is to

[00:38:11] listen to God and to be open to hearing his voice and to be corrected

[00:38:20] by him through studying the word, but also being a part of the

[00:38:28] church community and hearing the voice of God speaking to me and

[00:38:36] convicting me and teaching me over and over again about

[00:38:43] the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

[00:38:45] I think one of the most important things for a preacher is to be

[00:38:51] a witness of

[00:38:56] a witness of Jesus, a witness of what Jesus has done for us, a witness of the

[00:39:00] love that he shows us, a witness of the forgiveness that he has given us.

[00:39:05] And I think the best way to be such a witness is to be transparent about

[00:39:13] my own life and God and to

[00:39:18] live in the forgiveness that Christ gives us, because

[00:39:24] when we live in Christ's forgiveness, we don't have to pretend.

[00:39:28] We don't have to portray an image of ourselves

[00:39:33] as something other or better than what we are.

[00:39:37] But when we live in the forgiveness of Christ, we can be open about the fact

[00:39:42] that we don't have anything other than the grace that he gives us.

[00:39:48] And that's the only thing we really also have to give is to give the gifts

[00:39:53] that we have been given and the grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ.

[00:39:58] So to live

[00:40:00] independence upon that grace and forgiveness every day.

[00:40:04] And I think that's the most important way in which

[00:40:08] God is able to mold me in such a way that I can

[00:40:14] speak truthfully and genuinely about what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

[00:40:22] And so your your hope is that as you are

[00:40:26] teaching through James again or whatever that that can come through that,

[00:40:33] you know, it's like, listen, folks, this is actually real in my life.

[00:40:36] And I want this to come across to you.

[00:40:40] Yeah, I think preaching should aim at making the word

[00:40:48] personal and proclaiming the word so that it addresses us.

[00:40:54] It sort of strikes us.

[00:40:57] It says somewhere next that when Peter was preaching, it so struck them in the heart.

[00:41:03] And I think that's what preaching should aim to do.

[00:41:07] And I think for that to be possible,

[00:41:11] the preacher has to be the first one to be struck in the heart by the word of

[00:41:18] God and by the message.

[00:41:19] And when that happens,

[00:41:23] the preacher can also communicate that

[00:41:28] power of the word of God.

[00:41:31] Yeah, I appreciate that.

[00:41:33] And yeah, the figure like a lot of times we end with that final question.

[00:41:38] And people say, oh, I want to get better at illustrations or I'd like to say,

[00:41:44] less.

[00:41:45] And I appreciate that you're almost you're skipping all that.

[00:41:49] You're like, I just got to get struck by God's word.

[00:41:52] And the the bits and pieces of delivery will almost take care of themselves if we

[00:42:00] are struck by the heart, cut to the heart by God's word.

[00:42:04] Well, yeah, I think it is good to work on those things as well.

[00:42:09] Of course.

[00:42:09] To do our very best when we are around.

[00:42:13] And no disrespect to those other guests that have said that if they're listening.

[00:42:18] They're like, hey, wait a second.

[00:42:19] What's wrong?

[00:42:20] Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, no, we want to give the best in ministry for sure.

[00:42:27] In every way.

[00:42:29] Yeah.

[00:42:30] But ultimately I think it comes down to something different to be an effective

[00:42:34] preacher. Absolutely.

[00:42:36] Absolutely.

[00:42:37] Well, yeah, Sigurd, thank you very much for your time.

[00:42:40] Thanks for sharing your work with us through this commentary on Hebrews.

[00:42:47] And in the show notes of this episode, there'll be links to so much other of

[00:42:52] your publications that will really be a gift to those that follow along and

[00:43:01] and follow up.

[00:43:02] And yeah, I appreciate your time.

[00:43:04] Thanks for taking time out of a busy Tuesday for this call.

[00:43:08] And for the listeners of this show, I hope that this conversation and all the

[00:43:12] video expositors collective help you to grow in your personal study and public

[00:43:17] proclamation of God's word.

[00:43:20] All right.

[00:43:20] Hey, thanks for listening all the way to the end.

[00:43:23] And yeah, didn't it end on such a nice and good and personal fatherly note?

[00:43:28] I love learning intellectually, but also being encouraged

[00:43:33] Christianly through this conversation.

[00:43:37] Well, I do hope that this conversation and all the

[00:43:40] video expositors collective helps you to grow in your personal study and public

[00:43:45] proclamation of God's word.

[00:43:46] I hope that you are subscribed to this podcast either on YouTube or through

[00:43:52] Spotify or Apple Podcasts next week.

[00:43:55] That's a great conversation coming out with Trevor O'Keefe that you're not

[00:43:59] going to want to miss.

[00:44:00] All right.

[00:44:01] See you next Tuesday.

[00:44:02] Hey, everyone.

[00:44:03] Heeve Hardesty here, pastor Valley Community Church in Pleasanton, California.

[00:44:08] I want to invite you to come out on May 24th and 25th to the expositors

[00:44:13] collective interactive training event here in the beautiful Bay Area.

[00:44:17] This will help you grow in your personal study and the public

[00:44:20] proclamation of God's word.

[00:44:22] This will be a joyful time where we learn new skills and we do it in

[00:44:26] community all for the glory of God.

[00:44:28] So bring your team.

[00:44:30] Come on out.

[00:44:31] It'll be a powerful time of learning how to preach God's word in a joyful and

[00:44:36] powerful way. We hope to see you then.

[00:44:41] This podcast is a part of CGN Media, a podcast network that points to Christ.

[00:44:45] We are supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows.

[00:44:49] Visit cgnmedia.org slash support.