Pastoral Ministry Beyond the Pulpit - Brian Brodersen, Kike Tores, Richard Cimino, Manolo Matos

[00:00:00] And I think tending speaks of the personal care that you are to give to the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you the overseer.

[00:00:10] So, like Richard's saying, I think all of us probably in the earliest days thought of teaching as this is what it is, but you soon begin to learn that, well, it's more than that. It's actually caring for people.

[00:00:24] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, Episode 340. I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:31] The voice that you heard is that of Brian Brodersen. He is one of the men that you'll be hearing from in this panel discussion, which was recorded at the Calvary Chapel CGN Pastors and Leaders Conference that took place in Costa Mesa, California, back in June of 2024.

[00:00:48] So this is actually fairly recent. This is a panel that I got to take part in and I got to ask the questions.

[00:00:56] We talked about pastoral ministry, pastoral ministry specifically that goes beyond the pulpit.

[00:01:03] Much of what we think about, and especially the listeners to this podcast, we think about preaching a lot.

[00:01:12] We want to help you grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's Word, but we are super aware that the pastoral ministry is so much more than what you say in the pulpit or in the Tuesday night Bible study.

[00:01:27] So I speak with Brian Brodersen, Quique Torres, Richard Cimino, and Manolo Matos about the intricacies of pastoral ministry, the lessons that they've learned.

[00:01:41] And this is a great, it's an intergenerational panel, and it's an international panel.

[00:01:48] Brian and Richard have decades more experience than myself, Quique, and Manolo.

[00:01:57] And you get a chance to hear us talk amongst ourselves and also to get advice from our older and experienced brothers.

[00:02:05] Well, speaking of international, maybe you've heard this, maybe you haven't, but Expositors Collective, we're going international.

[00:02:13] We've been invited to come and to lead a pastor's training event in Kampala, Uganda.

[00:02:21] And in September, we're going to be putting on a three-day event.

[00:02:26] And you can get involved.

[00:02:28] You can help fund rural Ugandan pastors to come into the capital city of Kampala to be equipped in the preaching aspect of pastoral ministry.

[00:02:43] It's not all that there is, but it's part of it.

[00:02:46] Well, here is Zeddy Mzungu, and he's going to explain how you can get involved.

[00:02:52] Pastor Zeddy is my name. I do pastor Calvichapua Kampala, and we're trying to get over 200 pastors to come to Kampala.

[00:02:59] It's in the middle of the city, so some are going to be traveling from way out of the country.

[00:03:04] So we're asking you guys to get involved in some way.

[00:03:07] We need your help to help these pastors get into the conference.

[00:03:10] The conference is free of charge.

[00:03:12] We want to provide it free of charge for those who can't attend.

[00:03:14] However, some of these pastors are coming from remote areas.

[00:03:17] They need to cover the cost of transportation, food, and lodging while they're there.

[00:03:21] It's going to cost about $100 per pastor.

[00:03:23] So if you can help us sponsor a pastor to get to the conference, we'd really appreciate it.

[00:03:28] You can do so at the Expositors Collective website.

[00:03:31] Yeah, that's right. Thanks, guys.

[00:03:32] I appreciate your prayers, and would you help us sponsor an expositor?

[00:03:44] I'm from Mexico.

[00:03:45] I'm pastoring there at the center of the country in a city called Querétaro, and I'm 42.

[00:03:52] Brian?

[00:03:54] I'm Brian, and I am pastoring here at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and I am 67 years old.

[00:04:04] I'm Manolo.

[00:04:06] I'm pastoring in Lima, Peru, and I am 34.

[00:04:12] I am Richard, and I'm pastoring here as well, and I am 130, I think.

[00:04:22] Just this week.

[00:04:23] Just this week.

[00:04:26] And, yeah, my name is Mike.

[00:04:28] I am from California.

[00:04:30] I've lived in Ireland for 21 years, and I pastor a church called Calvary Cork, and I am 41 years old.

[00:04:38] 41.

[00:04:38] 41.

[00:04:39] So we've arranged it.

[00:04:40] Yeah, black T-shirts, middle-aged, blue-collared shirts, elder brothers.

[00:04:49] I see that you, your suitcase must have come.

[00:04:53] Yeah.

[00:04:54] Right?

[00:04:54] Yeah.

[00:04:55] Did you guys recognize Mike the other day when he had like a collared striped shirt on?

[00:05:02] Rare.

[00:05:03] And some, I think, almost sort of khaki-ish trousers.

[00:05:08] First time in his adult life that he has ever dressed like that.

[00:05:13] Yeah.

[00:05:13] Is it the last?

[00:05:15] Maybe, yeah.

[00:05:16] So, yeah, my luggage got lost, so I was dipping into different styles, but now, yeah.

[00:05:21] Back to your normal.

[00:05:22] Back to, yeah, the more flattery black.

[00:05:26] The Euro look.

[00:05:27] Yes.

[00:05:27] All right, guys.

[00:05:28] Opening banter.

[00:05:29] Check.

[00:05:31] So we're, yeah, we want to talk about what, expanding on this idea of what does it mean

[00:05:36] to really, to be a pastor or to pastor people.

[00:05:42] I guess even, I like how the idea of, like, the word pastor, it is a verb as opposed to

[00:05:49] a noun.

[00:05:49] It's something that you do.

[00:05:51] It's a title that we do take upon ourselves as pastors.

[00:05:54] But what, maybe just really quickly, like, what does it mean to pastor?

[00:05:59] I'd love if each of you could define what it means to pastor.

[00:06:03] Not be a pastor, but what does it mean to pastor, Richard?

[00:06:07] Well, the longer I've been in ministry, the more I'm discovering that it is much more than

[00:06:12] being a teacher, that at the heart of it is care.

[00:06:16] And you care for your congregation from the pulpit, certainly, and you express your care

[00:06:23] in the context of your teaching.

[00:06:25] But I think a lot of it is, it is a lot more relational than I saw it when I first got into

[00:06:32] ministry.

[00:06:33] Okay.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:34] When I think about pastoral ministry, I'm often related to what the need for it is.

[00:06:43] Why do we need pastors in the church?

[00:06:45] And I think that the goalpost for us, as Richard was saying, I think is also developing fully

[00:06:58] matured followers of Jesus.

[00:07:01] And so teaching is one of the aspects of that, for sure.

[00:07:05] But through our care, through our presence in their lives, we can encourage them as we

[00:07:14] are encouraged ourselves to continue to follow Christ.

[00:07:17] I love that.

[00:07:22] There's a passage in Isaiah 40, verse 11, I think.

[00:07:28] It's speaking of Jesus, but it says,

[00:07:30] He shall feed his flock like a shepherd.

[00:07:33] He shall gather the lambs with his arms.

[00:07:37] He shall carry them in his bosom and gently lead those who are with young.

[00:07:44] And I think it's a beautiful picture, really, of pastoral ministry.

[00:07:48] So he will feed his flock like a shepherd.

[00:07:51] And I think James did such a great job of talking about feeding the flock.

[00:07:55] And I mean, it's resonating with all of us, right?

[00:08:00] Just on a quick side note, I remember when I first met James and we were just kind of getting

[00:08:05] to know each other.

[00:08:06] And I was asking him about, you know, just sort of, you know, what's his approach to

[00:08:10] ministry been over the years?

[00:08:11] And he has no relation to Calvary or anything like that.

[00:08:16] And he says, oh, I just teach through books of the Bible.

[00:08:20] And I was curious.

[00:08:21] I'm like, well, you know, who told you to do that?

[00:08:23] And he goes, oh, I just figured that's what you do.

[00:08:25] You have a Bible.

[00:08:26] It's full of, you know, books.

[00:08:27] So you teach through the books of the Bible.

[00:08:29] And, you know, as he was up sharing on that first point about feeding the flock,

[00:08:35] that was just resonating with all of us.

[00:08:37] I mean, we know that.

[00:08:38] But then there's the second part, which I think is you could summarize it in the word

[00:08:43] tending.

[00:08:44] And I think tending speaks of the personal care that you are to give to the flock over

[00:08:52] which the Holy Spirit has made you the overseer.

[00:08:55] So like Richard's saying, I think all of us probably in the earliest days thought of teaching

[00:09:00] as this is what it is.

[00:09:03] But you soon begin to learn that, well, it's more than that.

[00:09:07] It's actually caring for people.

[00:09:09] And then the last part of that is he shall lead them.

[00:09:12] And I think that there's an important component there, too, that God is wanting to take his

[00:09:20] people somewhere.

[00:09:21] And he has appointed us to lead them where he wants to take them.

[00:09:25] And I think each, I would say individual congregations could have different destinations in one sense

[00:09:31] in regard to like what, like an emphasis in ministry.

[00:09:38] So God gives the pastor sort of an emphasis, and then the flock is led by him into that emphasis.

[00:09:45] So I draw that from my own life experience where I never set out to be like a mission-minded church necessarily,

[00:09:54] but God did that with me.

[00:09:56] And then the whole church just became mission-minded.

[00:09:59] So we were being led in that way.

[00:10:02] And so teaching, tending, and leading.

[00:10:06] Kike, have all the good definitions been taken?

[00:10:08] No, yes.

[00:10:09] But for me, like I, in these 13 years, I commit so many mistakes in naming pastors in the church

[00:10:16] that I learned these, actually we develop as a team, these attributes that needs to happen

[00:10:22] or be visible and evident in a guy that we're concerned for pastoral ministry,

[00:10:26] that is kind of lead, teach, or preach, care, pray.

[00:10:32] That's a thing that we learned that it is not just a capacity to lead others,

[00:10:37] but if you have a praying life that it is kind of engaging and people want to pray like you

[00:10:42] and want to do what you have in the intimacy with the Lord.

[00:10:46] And the last is train others.

[00:10:48] Because I have seen in many ministries and even denominations that great teachers and leaders

[00:10:55] in a way that they don't have no one following them for transition.

[00:11:00] So eventually the church will die with them.

[00:11:03] And for me, that's not the model in the New Testament.

[00:11:06] So that training others, that's a thing that we're kind of considering important

[00:11:11] or super relevant in bringing the guys on board on that.

[00:11:15] Yeah, well, thanks.

[00:11:17] You kind of gave a little vulnerable moment there, Kike,

[00:11:20] saying that you've maybe made mistakes in the past.

[00:11:23] And it's a lot easier to appoint somebody to a position

[00:11:27] and then that process of unappointing.

[00:11:30] It's a very messy, very challenging, very hard situation.

[00:11:34] What advice would you tell yourself if you could hop in a time machine and then go back?

[00:11:39] Oh, that's a deep question.

[00:11:42] Because in reality, the last kind of season of, you know, wanting to go back and remake things on this,

[00:11:50] you know, like people asking me like, oh, why these people left?

[00:11:54] You invest so much in them and look how they treated you.

[00:11:57] And like, you know, in my flesh kind of struggling with this kind of, you know, sense of self-justice.

[00:12:03] The whole people really spoke to my life and it was like, you don't lose anything.

[00:12:08] It was me through you equipping these guys and loving these guys.

[00:12:13] So if Galatians 2.20 is true, Kike is not longer alive.

[00:12:18] It is Jesus in you.

[00:12:19] So you're not, you don't lose nothing in the process.

[00:12:23] So, and you keep kind of feel through me and by me, you know, in God.

[00:12:29] So, so that was kind of, in the reality, that was, that's part of the suffering of pastoral ministry.

[00:12:34] Like people would treason you, people would kind of pay you bad,

[00:12:39] the good things that you are bringing to the table.

[00:12:42] So, uh, we should not consider kind of, uh, you know, newbies or like, oh, this has just happened to me.

[00:12:49] Like, bro, you're, uh, Asal and Lajal.

[00:12:51] You're just one more guy that is suffering this.

[00:12:54] And, uh, so it is not like, oh, I, I love to have been doing that before.

[00:12:59] Uh, I, I try my best.

[00:13:01] I love these guys.

[00:13:02] I, I, I care for them.

[00:13:04] I invest in them and God providentially, uh, pour his church.

[00:13:08] And eventually I get to that kind of border that I was like thankful.

[00:13:13] Like, oh, now I see God what you did that because you were doing this in me.

[00:13:18] My wife said like, Kike, uh, grows like the moss when he suffered the moss.

[00:13:24] I don't know.

[00:13:25] I don't know how, how loving is that?

[00:13:27] But, uh, she saw that and that brings me kind of hope on this.

[00:13:32] Like, oh, it was not God doing something in the church.

[00:13:35] Uh, like essentially it was first in me, uh, bringing me to this, uh, yeah, you know,

[00:13:40] experience more Jesus and suffering pastoral ministry.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:46] So we're talking about pastoral ministry and yeah, so quickly have jumped into the topic

[00:13:50] of, of pastoral suffering.

[00:13:54] Yeah.

[00:13:54] If only, if only we could have the one without the other.

[00:13:58] Right.

[00:13:58] But yeah.

[00:13:59] Uh, so what I've heard you mentioned there, even about even future candidates and what I

[00:14:05] think for yourself have highlighted in our earlier definitions of what it means to pastor

[00:14:10] is that teaching is part of it, but teaching and preaching isn't all of it.

[00:14:15] Um, a moment ago, a few moments ago, we were kind of invited to say, well, what does a swimmer

[00:14:23] do?

[00:14:23] A swimmer.

[00:14:25] What does a diver do?

[00:14:27] A diver.

[00:14:28] What does a preacher do?

[00:14:29] A preacher.

[00:14:30] A preacher.

[00:14:32] I don't think I have the gravitas to do it.

[00:14:34] Like, uh, but what does a pastor do?

[00:14:45] Pastors.

[00:14:45] Yeah.

[00:14:46] And so I like guys, of course, like I, I loved, loved everything that, that was said in

[00:14:53] the previous session.

[00:14:54] Wonderful, great, stirring, inspiring, uh, truths.

[00:14:58] But if we were to like only consider the office or the work of pastors as a preacher, uh, what

[00:15:08] would we, what would we miss out on?

[00:15:09] Essentially, what's the, what's the role of the other, what's the role of pastoring that

[00:15:15] goes beyond and encompasses preaching?

[00:15:21] By way of our preaching, surely equipping happens, right?

[00:15:25] But I think that that equipping, um, is, is much more than understanding spiritual truth

[00:15:32] and how, and, and helping people to see the world and their lives and the, what they're

[00:15:38] going to do in serving Jesus through the lens of that truth and how that truth informs them

[00:15:42] and defines them and directs them.

[00:15:44] But I think that there needs to be the place where you're actually somehow, some way making

[00:15:51] it possible to have people that, that their, their pastors walk by alongside of them into

[00:15:58] it and to equip them in ways that is much more than just theological, but to help them really

[00:16:06] understand the new, like just the things you were saying, Kike, like, guess what?

[00:16:10] You're a pastor, you suffer.

[00:16:12] And people want to serve, especially guys that feel called to pastoral ministry.

[00:16:16] And I think that one of the things I've learned over, over the years is that there really is,

[00:16:22] it's so important that you be accessible.

[00:16:26] And I know that changes, you know, church size changes the dynamic of those relationships.

[00:16:31] You can't argue that it does.

[00:16:34] Um, in fact, Tim Keller wrote a great article on that once about how church size changes your

[00:16:40] pastoral relationship.

[00:16:41] But even then, I think you still have relationships around you in ministry where you are still

[00:16:47] close.

[00:16:47] There's layers that you're close to.

[00:16:49] And there needs to be, whether you're pastoring a group of 30 people or a group of a hundred

[00:16:55] people or a thousand people, you're, you need to have accessibility.

[00:17:01] People that can get close enough to you to observe you and to, to understand by example,

[00:17:07] pastor the flock by example, right?

[00:17:09] They need to be close enough to you to see that it's not just the example of how you prepare

[00:17:13] for your sermons, but how do you live as a man?

[00:17:16] How do you live as a pastor?

[00:17:18] So, yeah, I mean, as you're saying that, I'm just thinking of Paul's words, you know,

[00:17:26] imitate me as I imitate Christ.

[00:17:29] And you, you can't do that from a distance.

[00:17:33] You, you have to have excess ability to, um, to a person.

[00:17:40] And then I, I read that passage of, I don't know, a few weeks ago.

[00:17:44] And I just thought, wow, you know, today, I, I think a lot of pastors today would say,

[00:17:49] well, don't, don't imitate me.

[00:17:50] You know, I'm not, not, you know, no, we don't do that.

[00:17:54] But, you know, Paul says, do it, imitate me.

[00:17:56] So are we thinking in those terms that we are examples?

[00:18:01] I mean, you know, the, the first Peter passages be examples to the flock.

[00:18:05] And so, um, but again, I think, uh, when Paul says to Timothy, you know, be example,

[00:18:12] and then he gives that list of the various ways in which we are to be examples.

[00:18:20] Again, you can look at that from a distance and get an idea, but you're not going to really

[00:18:27] know it until you have the up close and personal experiences.

[00:18:33] I think too, a lot of times we can, um, think of our pastoral responsibility as a way of producing

[00:18:41] something in people's lives and, and we have an outcome that we, that we think should happen

[00:18:48] in their lives because of our ministry.

[00:18:50] And we sort of wire everything towards that, whether it be our teaching or our pastoral care

[00:18:56] or our ministries, our systems in church, it's all sort of wired towards that outcome.

[00:19:03] Um, but I feel like it can also be like, it could be a thing of, we are expecting a certain

[00:19:13] fruit or a certain change or whatever you want to see in your people.

[00:19:19] I mean, we know that it should be the image of Christ in them, but I think that that goal

[00:19:25] or that outcome not only involves active things that we do for them in teaching them and training

[00:19:34] them and developing all these things for them.

[00:19:36] I also think it involves walking with them.

[00:19:41] I think a lot of times we are eager to see the change in the fruit, but we forget that fruit

[00:19:48] takes time.

[00:19:50] And a lot of times that's one of the things that's been hard for me is having to,

[00:19:55] be, to learn to be patient.

[00:19:58] And when someone is not living to the standard that I think they should be living, and I don't

[00:20:05] know who we're kidding because we're not doing that either, but, um, to be patient and to

[00:20:12] walk with them and to, um, be accessible.

[00:20:17] Like you're saying, I think that a lot of times we rush, we try to rush through those seasons

[00:20:22] because we, if we're, if we are to be good pastors, then we need to have all this fruit.

[00:20:28] And I don't think that we can truly produce fruit.

[00:20:31] And it sounds like you're saying, um, where your, your perspective is almost like the people

[00:20:39] are a project.

[00:20:40] So this is my project.

[00:20:42] And this is my, my goal for, for this project versus the person being a person that you're

[00:20:51] going to approach them on a level, uh, uh, not on a, like a business level, but on a familial

[00:21:00] relational level.

[00:21:02] You know, it's interesting.

[00:21:03] Paul talks about his ministry in terms of, I think it was to the Corinthians where he talks

[00:21:07] to them as like a building.

[00:21:08] Then he talks of them as like, um, a field, you know, it's not all, you know, construction,

[00:21:14] it's farming.

[00:21:15] It's, there's just so many elements of it.

[00:21:18] So it can't be.

[00:21:19] And as you were talking too, I was thinking it's not something that we can look at like,

[00:21:23] well, there's not much of a return on my investment.

[00:21:26] Like that works in the business world, but what we put in takes time and it's not like

[00:21:34] this instant turnaround thing.

[00:21:36] So, so you speak about, yeah, time investments, uh, being with people, but just remember a

[00:21:44] few moments ago, we talked about how as churches are various sizes, that level of accessibility,

[00:21:49] it does, it does change.

[00:21:50] Could you speak for a few moments about like the role of like a pastoral team?

[00:21:54] Uh, because there are limits.

[00:21:57] Like all of us are, we're limited people in a room full of limited people.

[00:22:01] And if we talk about, you know, we want everyone to, we want to be accessible to everybody.

[00:22:06] That's actually impossible.

[00:22:08] It could just be like thin, tiny little micro slices of us that, that go out.

[00:22:12] So what, what are the, what's the role of a pastor organizing teams, serving as a team,

[00:22:19] serving with the team, and then creating teams for care and also for equipping?

[00:22:27] Uh, uh, for me, the word will be, uh, you need to be a strategic, like, because you cannot

[00:22:32] invest in all and love all the same way.

[00:22:34] So you need to, uh, I love, um, last sermon about, uh, I learned to listen your mom's voice

[00:22:41] in the secret that I recognized her voice in the, you know, uh, because it is kind of,

[00:22:48] I always have these on our first call is to intimacy, not to activity.

[00:22:52] So we tend mostly because in my case, I came from a business background to do kind of,

[00:22:57] you know, plans and like, uh, my, my, my VA is in human resources.

[00:23:02] So it's like the profile that we need.

[00:23:04] Uh, and it is most like, it is more like a, like be, I don't know, synchronized with the

[00:23:09] Holy spirit to see what he's doing in each person to be able to, to just connect with his

[00:23:15] will.

[00:23:15] And you will serve the people that he's bringing to your ministry that he will bring you to

[00:23:20] bless his plan through your church or like his church, but in your administration.

[00:23:28] Um, so yeah, for me, it's more like about like, okay, this guy is, uh, is bringing people.

[00:23:34] This guy is, uh, loving people.

[00:23:36] This guy is serving people.

[00:23:37] This guy is equipping.

[00:23:39] So it's like, you'd be, I always, um, go every Sunday, like with open eyes, like show me God

[00:23:44] who you are bringing that you're bringing to us.

[00:23:48] So we can be sensitive to you and love him in a way that we will invite him and equip him

[00:23:54] and, you know, position him in a role that can practice, uh, his gifts.

[00:23:59] So yeah, for me, it's, it's strategic is the right word for me because when you start church

[00:24:04] and then start growing your people will lose their pastor in the altar of, you know, many

[00:24:11] things that we need to do.

[00:24:12] But if you care for the right people that helped you lead, and that will be a blessing

[00:24:19] even for your soul, because instead of ministry, you have a family and a wife and kids.

[00:24:24] So you need to lead, uh, your team in a way that they understand that your first ministry

[00:24:29] is your family, not the church.

[00:24:31] Uh, the church can have another pastor, but your wife shouldn't have another husband.

[00:24:34] So, uh, that's the challenge that we need to navigate this side of eternity.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:42] And so you would say the way to do that is through strategic investment.

[00:24:45] Yeah.

[00:24:46] Yeah.

[00:24:46] I had a conversation with somebody earlier and actually in my notebook here, I have a

[00:24:50] triangle, I have a pyramid and on the bottom of the pyramid, it says nurture.

[00:24:54] So everyone should be nurtured by us.

[00:24:56] And then in the middle of the pyramid, it's that many should be equipped by us.

[00:25:00] And then the very top of the pyramid, some should be developed by us.

[00:25:04] So nurture all, equip many, and then develop some.

[00:25:08] And then those, those developed people can then be investing in caring to others.

[00:25:12] Yep.

[00:25:13] So that's essentially kind of like, it sounds like the pastor's role developing others.

[00:25:18] Um, is there any thoughts from anyone about like serving as a pastor alongside others,

[00:25:26] essentially as part of a team?

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:28] I, I, um, I, I like to recommend Paul Tripp's book Lead.

[00:25:32] And in that book, he talks about how the, the, the pastoral team should be the example

[00:25:39] of community that if there's not community happening in the, in the pastoral team, how is, how is your

[00:25:45] community at large can understand it?

[00:25:47] And, and to live in that kind of that relationship that there's intimacy, there's a, there's

[00:25:52] accessibility, there's, there's transparency, there's all these things working through the

[00:25:56] hard stuff together.

[00:25:58] Um, I think that's, that's so very important because then as you do that, as you're,

[00:26:03] as you are, that's where you develop a lot of stuff that then that infiltrates a

[00:26:08] whole lot of other stuff.

[00:26:09] And those, you also highlight, that's a book that I think every pastor should read, like

[00:26:13] Lead by Paul Tripp.

[00:26:14] It is like a must for really this awareness.

[00:26:17] That's his, uh, thesis after I think 10 years of Dangerous Calling that if you see 90% of

[00:26:24] the endorsements guy like falls.

[00:26:27] So he was like, I need to teach not the leader, but the kind of the equip, the team of leaders.

[00:26:33] So that's, thank you for bringing that to the table.

[00:26:36] Well, I've read Dangerous Calling, but I haven't read Lead yet.

[00:26:39] So maybe I should, uh, if we're recommending books, I would recommend the plurality principle

[00:26:47] by who wrote the plurality principle?

[00:26:49] It's a great order.

[00:26:50] No, I don't know.

[00:26:51] Like Thule, I think, I think.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:53] Anyway, um, that's, that's a great book where it talks about the importance of having a pastoral

[00:26:56] team.

[00:26:57] And he affirms the importance of a first among equals, um, that it's not just like, you know,

[00:27:03] like naked, bare base, um, egalitarian.

[00:27:08] But if there is a, um, uh, you know, a first among equals, but there's a team that's there.

[00:27:14] Uh, I think that the team thing too, I, I think we've come a long ways in regard to appreciating

[00:27:23] a team and recognizing that in some ways that is really more of a biblical model, a New Testament

[00:27:29] model for sure than say what we would normally think of as like a Moses model or something

[00:27:34] like that.

[00:27:36] And, um, so, so I feel like, you know, as a family of churches, we, we've definitely made,

[00:27:44] made some good headway on that, but I think we could even do better.

[00:27:49] And, um, I just think of Paul, you know, like at the end of Colossians, you call at the end

[00:27:55] of Colossians, Paul lists 10, 10 names of people that he's intimately involved in, in

[00:28:00] his ministry.

[00:28:01] And I think so often because, you know, Paul's the author of so many epistles that we teach

[00:28:05] and we quote and so forth, we're, we're just thinking of Paul as this solo, this independent

[00:28:10] guy who's just doing it all himself.

[00:28:12] And, and then, you know, we're solo and we're independent and we're saying, well, I'm just

[00:28:16] like Paul, but we're, we're failing to realize, well, no, we're not just like Paul because

[00:28:20] Paul actually did have a team around him.

[00:28:23] And he mentioned the team on several occasions.

[00:28:26] And when you take, um, and you know, whether it's, it's the Colossians passage or my goodness,

[00:28:32] you take Romans, the end of Romans and all the different names there and you start, you

[00:28:37] know, some of them, there's, there's very little, um, content about them, but others,

[00:28:44] there's more.

[00:28:44] And you start to look at, uh, like, uh, Aquila and Priscilla, for example, you start to get

[00:28:49] a little glimpse of even their personality and their gifts and things.

[00:28:54] And you see how this, this was working together with Paul's gifts.

[00:28:58] So I think, and, and, you know, here we are today, uh, and I've been here 2025.

[00:29:08] I will have been here 25 years and quick math.

[00:29:13] What's that?

[00:29:14] Quick math.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:16] Well, you know, it's a pretty easy, right?

[00:29:18] Um, I, I am pretty good at just adding, you know, don't try any like geometry or trigonometry

[00:29:29] or anything, but, uh, but anyway, looking back over those almost 25 years now, and then even

[00:29:37] thinking back to previous seasons, you know, in England, previous seasons in Vista, I feel

[00:29:42] like we are here today functioning as a team in a way that I've never experienced in my

[00:29:51] entire ministry life.

[00:29:52] And it's so refreshing and, and beautiful.

[00:29:56] I love it.

[00:29:57] That's beautiful to hear.

[00:29:58] And Brian, as you were beginning, as you were talking about maybe the, the, the shifts

[00:30:02] and the change and how, you know, for many of us where we're leaning more into like a

[00:30:07] team oriented view towards pastoral ministry, I could tell from your face that there was

[00:30:10] going to be a butt and then your butt was, but, but we could do even better.

[00:30:15] And so I want to highlight that.

[00:30:17] I think that's a, that's a great thing.

[00:30:18] I could see a butt coming.

[00:30:19] Yeah.

[00:30:20] But it actually intensified what you were previously saying rather than qualified it.

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:24] Cause I do.

[00:30:25] I mean, do you think that we've made some good headway in that?

[00:30:28] Oh yeah.

[00:30:29] Or is it just my imagination?

[00:30:30] Oh yeah.

[00:30:30] Yeah.

[00:30:31] Oh yeah.

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:32] And in our church, Calvary Cork, I, I feel, I think that we were one of the earlier ones

[00:30:39] in, in, in our part of the world to kind of transition out of a solo pastor model into

[00:30:44] a plurality of elders.

[00:30:46] Obviously there was the guys in London that were South London that, that kind of maybe

[00:30:51] were the very first that I was aware of, but it felt that we were really outliers for

[00:30:55] a while in our neck of the woods or in this neck of the woods.

[00:30:59] And that's not the case anymore.

[00:31:00] So it's been maybe a few years, a few years headstart.

[00:31:04] I've been doing a lot of thinking and reading myself over the years.

[00:31:08] And it's been wonderful when people agree with me.

[00:31:13] That was a joke.

[00:31:16] All right.

[00:31:16] Hey, let's, so we've, we've heard that in order to have a church grow, that we need to

[00:31:26] make sure that we feed the flock well.

[00:31:30] And we've also, you know, in addition to only feeding the flock, it's being a person of

[00:31:34] humility.

[00:31:35] It's being a person of prayer.

[00:31:38] Guys, what if someone is feeding the flock faithfully, praying, and their church is actually

[00:31:44] in a period of decline or plateau?

[00:31:51] Well, I, oh, go ahead.

[00:31:54] I defer to youth.

[00:31:57] I was just going to say that I think our definition of success needs to be evaluated there because

[00:32:05] we are not successful when our, necessarily when our churches are full.

[00:32:11] I think we're successful when we're being faithful to what the Lord's put in front of us.

[00:32:17] And I mean, we can see throughout the Bible, right?

[00:32:20] I mean, just prophets or like even Jeremiah, we know, you know, he was faithful.

[00:32:25] He was successful, but he had zero converts.

[00:32:29] And so I think that I've heard it say, you know, anything healthy will grow.

[00:32:36] And I think we have a, we are right in desiring our churches to grow.

[00:32:43] Um, but I don't think that anything that grows is necessarily healthy.

[00:32:49] Um, yeah.

[00:32:51] Cancer.

[00:32:52] There you go.

[00:32:52] Yeah.

[00:32:53] You know, um, I was thinking and, and, uh, about how this idea of if you are teaching the

[00:33:02] word and you are not doing it for money and if you're humble, um, that, that your, your

[00:33:09] church will grow.

[00:33:09] So, and then, but there's, there can be things that are very, um, not healthy that, that grow.

[00:33:19] And I, I just, while you were speaking, I thought of the Mars Hill thing, like it was ripping,

[00:33:24] but it was still not well while it was growing.

[00:33:28] In fact, it was, it was only a matter of time before the, the stuff that was, was rotting out

[00:33:34] from the inside made the whole thing crumble, but it was not healthy while it was at its

[00:33:40] pinnacle.

[00:33:41] And I think that's so scary because we were all, man, I was the first guy to go online

[00:33:45] and look at like their resources were just unbelievable.

[00:33:49] And I was thinking, Oh my goodness, I can just go to their website.

[00:33:52] And, and it's like, you know, um, know your, know your, your, your creeds and your councils

[00:33:57] and all these things.

[00:33:58] But while that was going, there was stuff.

[00:34:00] Maybe it was the, maybe it was in its, its infancy that was, that was growing, that was

[00:34:06] not healthy.

[00:34:06] And I think we just need to find out like, well, what is the metric for growth?

[00:34:10] Is, is growth merely a numeric thing or is there something else that growth is supposed

[00:34:14] to be?

[00:34:16] Uh, for me, it goes back to Manolo's saying about, we need to redefine success.

[00:34:23] Even when we synchronize our success with God's idea of success for us, that's bringing rest

[00:34:30] to our souls because, uh, like he will call us to be faithful.

[00:34:35] Uh, and whatever that means in each context, for example, I was like talking like you cannot

[00:34:41] judge, uh, the success of a church in, in California than in Cuba or in Mexico or in

[00:34:47] Kirhizan, like, uh, like the season of God moving in those areas are so different that

[00:34:54] you, that was for example, what happened to you in COVID that you were watching, like, you

[00:34:58] know, American services, like strongly about like going back to church.

[00:35:01] And like, it was like so different of what Peru was suffering on that.

[00:35:05] But so, uh, he has like Manolo how like wasn't not being faithful because he was strong with

[00:35:11] different success as Americans on that season.

[00:35:14] So for me, like, you know, being faithful and keep seeing God bringing new believers to

[00:35:22] a church that God is using your community of faith to reach them, love them and equip

[00:35:27] them.

[00:35:28] That's the best evidence that God is there.

[00:35:29] Uh, the danger that I see is when the, the church become this, uh, club that has been

[00:35:35] like three anniversaries of the church and it is the same families and the people are

[00:35:40] kind of dying, uh, like literally, and like you don't have many babies or kids ministry.

[00:35:46] Uh, so that's when the church is going in a bad place that you need to consider like

[00:35:51] probably like if it's me Lord, like, uh, I will, I will able to move apart so you can

[00:35:57] bless the church.

[00:35:58] Um, so yeah, it is for me a challenge to just not, you know, compare yourself with a

[00:36:05] successful at the, you know, social media idea.

[00:36:08] Uh, but God is calling me to this community to do this and I'm doing, I'm being faithful

[00:36:13] to that.

[00:36:14] Uh, and I, when I see him, he's smiling because I'm pleasing him.

[00:36:18] That's the success that I want every week.

[00:36:23] And, and I think, um, going back to the earlier session with James and, you know, just the,

[00:36:29] that first point on any, remember he was talking about enemies to church growth.

[00:36:36] So things that are going to prevent your church from growing.

[00:36:39] And I think honestly, I mean, you know, he asked the question, how many, how many in the

[00:36:44] room want their church to grow?

[00:36:45] I think everybody raised their hand.

[00:36:47] I don't think anybody says, no, we don't want any, we don't want any more people.

[00:36:51] Uh, even though I actually was pastoring a church at one point as I began there and they were

[00:36:56] mad at me because new people were coming and they said, you're messing up our thing.

[00:37:00] We really like what we have here.

[00:37:02] So we don't want more people.

[00:37:04] Well, okay.

[00:37:05] Um, so beside those rare occasions and groups of people, we, we all do want our churches

[00:37:12] to grow, obviously not because we want to be able to feel better about when we tell people

[00:37:18] how many people are at our church and not feel embarrassed, but we want to see our churches

[00:37:23] grow because we want to see people know Jesus and we want to see them grow in their faith

[00:37:28] and we want to see them be fruitful.

[00:37:30] And so I, you know, all of that, it, and then James, one of James's points was motive.

[00:37:36] You know, what is our motive?

[00:37:38] Why are we doing what we're doing?

[00:37:39] So, but I think also we just have to recognize that, um, and, and I was talking to somebody

[00:37:48] about this, you know, in the history of Calvary Chapel, even though we would oftentimes

[00:37:55] say in conferences in past years, it's not about the numbers.

[00:37:59] It's not about the numbers.

[00:38:00] It's not about the numbers, but yet everybody on the platform indicated that it really was

[00:38:05] about the numbers because you were only on the platform if you had the numbers.

[00:38:10] And so, you know, there's some tricky stuff here.

[00:38:13] And I think that we have to just, um, recognize that each situation is going to be unique to

[00:38:21] some degree and the, the fruitfulness even numerically is going to be, um, it's going to

[00:38:29] vary from place to place.

[00:38:30] So you can't say, well, you know, we've got 6,000.

[00:38:34] So that's just living proof that we are more fruitful and more in tune with the Lord.

[00:38:41] And so I think we just have to be wise when we think about this stuff and talk about it

[00:38:47] and teach on it.

[00:38:49] And I don't know if just to add to the, your, your question, like now that I'm kind of mentoring

[00:38:55] some pastors that are strongly like, Hey, the church is not growing.

[00:38:58] Like I'm feeling so much resistance.

[00:38:59] Like this is how, like I have been five years here and this nothing happened.

[00:39:03] Like I asked like many times about like how you are sure that God called you to pastoral

[00:39:09] ministry because of the last sermon, like it was mentioned, like there's so much, so many

[00:39:15] pastors in the pulpit, like not called by God, but by insecurities or complaining or, you

[00:39:22] know, syndicate of the church that divided and start their own church.

[00:39:26] So there's so many about that, that they felt by God to pastoral ministry, but they are just,

[00:39:32] you know, complaining or dissidents or wherever.

[00:39:35] So, uh, and I'm, I'm happy right now to help pastors that they haven't not called to be the one,

[00:39:41] but they are great two or three.

[00:39:43] Like, Hey bro, like you're a great teachers, but you don't have any leadership.

[00:39:47] Why you don't know how to pray and add your assets, like you're to this team.

[00:39:52] And they have been blessed both because one need these kinds of people in their team.

[00:39:57] So it is like so great.

[00:39:59] And like, I bring rest to the soul.

[00:40:01] Like, Oh, I was pushing to be the QV, but I was like a defensive lineman.

[00:40:05] Like I was, I'm happy doing that.

[00:40:07] And so, uh, probably, yeah, maybe like it's a good season to consider.

[00:40:11] Like, how do I know that God really called me to pastoral ministry?

[00:40:14] I'm not just reacting to a need, uh, but it wasn't not God like putting me there.

[00:40:21] Can I share a quick story?

[00:40:23] Quick.

[00:40:24] No.

[00:40:24] 30 seconds.

[00:40:25] No, we're out of time.

[00:40:25] Please do.

[00:40:28] As it relates to pastoral success.

[00:40:30] Right.

[00:40:31] I think, um, um, about a year and a half ago, we had a situation.

[00:40:35] I think most of us have probably gone through a situation like this where church is going

[00:40:41] great and you know, all these things are happening.

[00:40:44] And then, um, we have, we had a couple in our church that were a part of our leadership

[00:40:49] and they totally, uh, they were big, they became disgruntled over, uh, misunderstanding

[00:40:55] and the church.

[00:40:56] And they, um, kind of turned on us and they started accusing us and they started, you

[00:41:01] know, doing all these things.

[00:41:03] Um, in Peru too?

[00:41:04] In Peru too?

[00:41:04] Yeah.

[00:41:06] Imagine that.

[00:41:07] That's crazy.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:09] Um, and as, as, as, as I told this story to other fellow pastors, I realized just the

[00:41:14] same thing.

[00:41:14] It's like, oh, we're not unique in that.

[00:41:16] Okay.

[00:41:17] And, and anyway, um, but then I, and it was hard and it was there.

[00:41:21] We're previously, we had considered them really close friends and all these things.

[00:41:26] And so, um, unfortunately, um, they, I mean, maybe not unfortunately, they left our church.

[00:41:35] Um, but I was, my wife and I were really sad over it obviously.

[00:41:40] And, and we were just kind of down and out about it, kind of feeling terrible about ourselves.

[00:41:46] And maybe there's a hundred ways that we could have handled it differently or, uh, whatnot.

[00:41:51] Um, but, uh, I had, um, a conversation with you, with Richard and about it.

[00:41:59] And, and he told me something that, um, I will carry with me.

[00:42:03] Um, and it was about our, our last conversation that we had with this couple.

[00:42:09] And I think that in, at least in that conversation, I think I did everything in my power to represent

[00:42:19] Christ well, but unfortunately that wasn't enough.

[00:42:22] And, uh, they ended up leaving anyway.

[00:42:26] Um, and then to what Richard told me was, uh, that you, uh, you didn't get out of them

[00:42:36] what you wanted in that conversation, but Jesus got out of you what he wanted.

[00:42:43] And that just completely changed my perspective because, uh, yeah, I was expecting a certain

[00:42:50] outcome and I thought maybe if I'm faithful, maybe if I'm doing the right things, if I'm

[00:42:56] humble enough, if my approach, if my facial expressions, if my demeanor, if my speech,

[00:43:01] maybe if I hit all of those points, maybe I will be able to produce that.

[00:43:05] And, and the truth, the truth is we, we can't.

[00:43:08] Um, but, but the Lord used that to, to mold me and to teach me and to grow me through that.

[00:43:15] And so thank you.

[00:43:16] Oh, you're welcome.

[00:43:17] And I can tell you that those weren't like these great words that I had formed in my mind.

[00:43:23] They were words told to me when I was going through what he went through a couple of

[00:43:28] years before.

[00:43:29] And I think that's part of the relational aspect of the way pastoral ministry gets to

[00:43:36] work and should work.

[00:43:37] And it's wonderful when it does.

[00:43:38] So, and I don't know, I would love to hear from Brian and you Richard about, uh, because

[00:43:43] I, that's an idea that I was kind of just kind of wondering, uh, like what if God has

[00:43:51] different pastoral ministry position in his kingdom in the years and you get so tied to,

[00:43:58] I will be dying as a senior pastor that lost the opportunity to become another part of a

[00:44:05] pastoral ministry area that you will be kind of a mentor or a kind of a, you know, a backup

[00:44:10] to the next generation.

[00:44:11] But because you are kind of, you know, God, this is like, Oh God called me in my twenties to be a pastor

[00:44:17] and I will die as a senior pastor.

[00:44:19] But you didn't ask in another time to go like, Hey, do I'm still playing this or do I need to change

[00:44:26] position?

[00:44:27] And, and the church start kind of going down because you are kind of holding to a position

[00:44:31] that God wants you to move.

[00:44:33] But I don't know, I don't know if that's a, like you're doing transition, uh, because

[00:44:39] the reality is that in a hundred years we won't be pastors.

[00:44:42] So, uh, what do you mean?

[00:44:45] No, 130, yeah.

[00:44:47] Apart from Richard, apart from Richard, but I don't know if that's kind of a thing that

[00:44:52] probably needs to consider in pastoral ministry or?

[00:44:59] Yeah, I think, I think that I've had a number of conversations recently and heard people

[00:45:05] talking about, and I'm talking about people like, you know, 50 years old and they're talking

[00:45:09] about, man, you know, I'm thinking about succession already and I'm thinking about the future and,

[00:45:14] and I'm like, well, I, I, to me that seems a bit premature.

[00:45:18] I mean, if you want to, you know, get a thought in your head for the next 10 years and just

[00:45:22] have it sort of, you know, just think about it every now and again, pray about it.

[00:45:26] I think that's great, but, um, I don't think there's any rush to, I got to retire.

[00:45:34] Nobody, I don't know.

[00:45:35] I'm not, nobody's retiring, but you know what I mean?

[00:45:37] Like, okay, we got to do a transition.

[00:45:39] We got to get the next generation in and stuff.

[00:45:42] I think all of that is very, um, there, there's a very individual, um, calling for those kinds

[00:45:49] of things and I don't think we can just make it, uh, across the board.

[00:45:53] Like, well, I did it at this age and everybody should do it at this age.

[00:45:56] So I think we just, I mean, obviously I think we should be conscious of the fact that

[00:46:01] we're not always going to be here and, you know, would be nice to just have somebody in mind.

[00:46:07] Like what if even I was incapacitated?

[00:46:10] Who could step in?

[00:46:11] Is there somebody that, that we sense the Lord's hands on?

[00:46:14] So I think, I think all of that is good and right and healthy, but I don't think we need

[00:46:19] to, um, at least, you know, now at my age and at Richard's age, both of us, obviously

[00:46:26] we're thinking about it.

[00:46:27] And I think appropriately we're thinking about it, but I mean, you planted a church at 50,

[00:46:33] what?

[00:46:33] 52.

[00:46:35] Yeah.

[00:46:35] So Richard went out and started all, all over again at 52.

[00:46:38] And that's, you know, some guys are like 52.

[00:46:40] They're like, man, I'm sure I'm ready to retire.

[00:46:42] It's like, what?

[00:46:43] You know, today, 50 year olds, like a kid to us, you know, so children, mere children.

[00:46:55] Yeah.

[00:46:56] So, so I don't know if I even answered the question, but that's what I think.

[00:47:04] Yeah.

[00:47:05] Well, yeah.

[00:47:07] With the, with the time that we have left, the remaining 37 seconds.

[00:47:12] Yeah.

[00:47:12] I would, I would have loved to have heard, I suppose.

[00:47:15] Yeah.

[00:47:15] More on the idea of like, even, even Richard, as you have been like giving advice that you

[00:47:21] even received from somebody previously, I wonder like, can we do a lot lightning round of maybe

[00:47:26] are the two sages?

[00:47:29] Like what, what do you want the, the younger generation?

[00:47:33] Not that you're fading away, not that you're going away.

[00:47:36] But what, what do we need to know about pastoral ministry?

[00:47:42] You, you don't know much.

[00:47:44] I know.

[00:47:45] That's the problem.

[00:47:45] Tell me.

[00:47:46] No, I don't want to say, and I'm finding out how much I didn't know then and how much

[00:47:50] I still don't know.

[00:47:51] So.

[00:47:52] I think to put it in a, a Eugene Peterson phrase, it's a long obedience in the same direction.

[00:47:59] And it is a long obedience, you know, it's, it's a long road and you're, you're learning

[00:48:03] stuff the entire journey.

[00:48:05] You know, you never plateau, you never reach a place where you, okay, I got it all figured

[00:48:10] out now.

[00:48:11] There's always new things.

[00:48:13] And Richard and I both, I mean, I'm looking back and thinking, what the heck was I doing

[00:48:17] for 20 years?

[00:48:18] I mean, you know, how come I didn't figure this stuff out back then?

[00:48:22] So, but I mean, the Lord is faithful and he's leading us on the journey.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:28] Real quickly on the Eugene Peterson thing, like that book, Working the Angles is such a

[00:48:32] helpful book to remember like what we're really supposed to be all about.

[00:48:35] And it's a great reminder.

[00:48:36] So I encourage anybody to get that book.

[00:48:38] It's great.

[00:48:39] Well, thanks Richard.

[00:48:40] Would you pray for us please?

[00:48:42] Father, thank you so much for inviting us in to your work.

[00:48:50] Lord, thank you that when we were lost in the domain of death and darkness that you, you

[00:48:55] picked us up and you set us in the kingdom of your beloved son.

[00:48:59] And now we're not only in it, but you're just saying, work with me.

[00:49:04] And we would ask that for each of us that you would give us, always give us the reminder

[00:49:11] that you're the point.

[00:49:13] It begins with you.

[00:49:15] It ends with you.

[00:49:16] It's always going to be about you.

[00:49:18] And help us to help one another remember that and give us the wisdom that we need.

[00:49:24] Surround us with brothers and sisters in Jesus who will supply what each joint needs.

[00:49:31] And we're all standing here, Lord, today saying we need and we know that you have a supply

[00:49:36] for us.

[00:49:37] And may you bless, really bless the remainder of our time together that you would be filling

[00:49:44] in blanks for us, that you'd be strengthening weak places, that you'd be adding more strength

[00:49:50] in strong places so that when we leave here, Lord, we will have just our cup running over.

[00:49:55] We pray in Jesus name.

[00:49:57] Amen.

[00:49:58] Well, amen.

[00:50:00] Amen.

[00:50:01] I really enjoyed being part of that conversation and I hope that you benefited from listening

[00:50:06] in.

[00:50:07] Well, something that I'd love to invite you into is to invite you into our Facebook private

[00:50:14] community.

[00:50:15] There is a Facebook group.

[00:50:17] It's called Expositors Collective Christ Centered Text Focused Bible Teachers.

[00:50:23] And currently there's like 660 something Bible teachers, preachers and pastors.

[00:50:30] And it's a place for us to get advice, to give feedback on episodes, to ask questions.

[00:50:36] And I would love for you to search that out on Facebook, request to join, and then I'll

[00:50:42] approve you and you can continue this conversation.

[00:50:45] Thanks for listening.

[00:50:46] But we actually want to hear from you as well.

[00:50:49] Let's encourage each other in this important task that God has called us to.

[00:50:55] All right.

[00:50:55] Well, thanks for listening.

[00:50:56] I hope that this conversation and all that we do at Expositors Collective helps you to

[00:51:01] grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:51:05] See you next Tuesday.

[00:51:07] This podcast is a part of CGN Media, a podcast network that points to Christ.

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