Not a Crowd to Be Feared, Nor an Audience to Be Entertained, but a Family to Be Loved - Trevor O'Keefe

[00:00:00] I mean still in the front cover of my Bible, I have a comment I wrote as a young man probably in my early 20s

[00:00:06] that just said this is not a crowd to be feared or an audience to entertain. This is a family to be loved.

[00:00:12] And I still in my mind often am playing that through as I walk up to teach

[00:00:18] that Lord this is not some audience for me to entertain or a crowd to fear.

[00:00:22] This is a family, your family that I'm here to love today.

[00:00:26] And I having that conviction still is what combats a lot of that anxiety.

[00:00:32] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective podcast episode 330. I'm your host Mike Neglia.

[00:00:39] The voice that you heard is that of our guest for this week, Trevor O'Keefe is pastor of Olive

[00:00:46] Branch Christian Fellowship in Poway, California, which is near San Diego.

[00:00:53] Trevor is a great man. I've known him for more than a decade and a half. I count him as a friend,

[00:01:00] a counselor, an advisor, a consultant. He is somebody who I've been learning from for quite

[00:01:06] a long time. And I know that you are going to benefit from listening in on this conversation.

[00:01:15] Before we get into it, I do want to say that this episode is sponsored by the Calvary Chapel

[00:01:22] Global Network upcoming pastors and leaders conference, which is taking place in Costa

[00:01:29] Mesa, California at the end of June. I'm going to let pastor Brian Brodersen give you an invitation

[00:01:37] and then I'm going to jump in once more at the end. Hi, Pastor Brian Brodersen here

[00:01:42] and I would like to invite those of you who are pastors, ministry leaders, anyone serving in the

[00:01:49] church to join us for this year's CGN International Conference. Our theme this year is hope, suffering

[00:01:57] and glory. And we're going to be studying through the first epistle of Peter. It's going to be

[00:02:04] a fantastic time. We've got nine speakers who are going to be our main session speakers.

[00:02:09] We've got a number of fantastic workshops caring for your own soul. It's going to be

[00:02:16] a fantastic time. The dates are June 23rd to the 26th and that's going to be held at Calvary

[00:02:23] Chapel Costa Mesa. So if you're interested and would like to find out more, you can go to

[00:02:29] conference.calvarychapel.com. That is conference.calvarychapel.com. God bless.

[00:02:35] All right. Well, thanks for listening to Brian and you know what? Myself and Brian are going to

[00:02:43] be doing a workshop together about, you guessed it, sermon preparation. So we'll be talking through

[00:02:51] some methods to make the most of our limited time to how we can go deeper into the Bible

[00:02:59] and how we can arrange notes or outlines or manuscripts in a way that really communicates

[00:03:07] God's truth to God's people. So I hope to see you at that conference. Well, anyway, back to the

[00:03:14] episode at hand. So Trevor and I were speaking in person during a visit that he had to my own

[00:03:23] church congregation here in the city of Cork in Ireland. We speak about his wild and crazy

[00:03:30] first sermon experience. We talk about lessons that he's learned in 17 years of youth ministry

[00:03:38] and how that transfers or what's the parallels or overlaps between now his ministry leading a

[00:03:46] multi-generational church and the bulk of our conversation has to do with like pastoral vulnerability

[00:03:53] in the pulpit. Listen, we all know that it's possible to go too far when it comes to vulnerability,

[00:04:00] but Trevor would also say that there's a danger of not going far enough. I know that this is

[00:04:05] going to provoke some thought and maybe even help you to think through carefully how vulnerability

[00:04:12] should not be withheld from the people to whom we preach. Here's my conversation with Trevor O'Keeffe.

[00:04:25] Hi, Trevor. How are you? Doing good. What is your Monday morning like?

[00:04:30] Today is a little different. Sitting with you in your office in Cork. Yes. The city was

[00:04:36] going wild last night because it's a big night for Cork. Did you even catch that in the news?

[00:04:39] Nope. Killian Murphy? Killian Murphy, of course. Yes. How could you forget? Yeah.

[00:04:45] I saw a headline in some Irish news publication today that said Cork will never shut up about this.

[00:04:52] Forgive me for not being aware. We had a big referendum a couple days ago,

[00:04:57] which I thought went well and even this is even more exciting news for the Irish landscape.

[00:05:02] Yes. This is a time stamp for Cork. It really is. Yeah. So Killian Murphy just won the best

[00:05:07] actor. Grammy? Wouldn't be a Grammy. Oscar. Oscar. Yeah. I'm super dialed in. Yeah. Obviously,

[00:05:14] I'm not that dialed in either. I saw the headline today left and then had to look to see what happened.

[00:05:19] Yes. But guess with you in Cork. Open in banter. Check. Check. Hey, Trevor, I know the story of your

[00:05:26] first sermon, but I've been hounding you for a year plus to come on the show and talk about

[00:05:34] it just because of the first sermon. Amongst other things. This will be a short episode as I

[00:05:38] share this story and then we move on and the rest of your audience can enjoy their week. My

[00:05:42] first sermon, I started assisting someone in youth ministry and he was going to be out of town.

[00:05:47] I think I was 20 years old and so he asked me to fill in. I think he was teaching a series

[00:05:53] on the gifts of the spirit. But the thing that I remember most is that in my introduction,

[00:05:58] I was kind of hedging my bets on not doing a great job and told students if they got bored

[00:06:03] that what they could do was what I would do in college courses. And that's if I felt like I was

[00:06:08] fading out, I'd give myself a jolt or I'd bite my lip or my tongue or something to try to keep

[00:06:13] myself alive. But the idea of a jolt was like if I just, you know, like when you start to fall

[00:06:18] asleep and you lunge where you fall over and then kind of gives you a rush of adrenaline.

[00:06:23] So I teased about that. So if you're falling asleep, just do this because, you know,

[00:06:26] it'll really hit my insecurities if I see you snooze in the day. So maybe 15 minutes in

[00:06:31] and this girl in the front row does a jolt. And I saw it out of the corner of my eye and was like,

[00:06:36] how that's funny? Like, okay, I get it. Like I'll move on. And then she jolts again.

[00:06:41] And then I noticed she's like constantly jolting. And I'm trying to talk over it like,

[00:06:45] ha ha funny, like now everyone sees because you're in the front row, but you're just like,

[00:06:51] you know, having to laugh at my expense. And then I realized she was having a seizure.

[00:06:55] So I hustled over and helped her out of her chair to lay down on the ground and then called

[00:07:00] for help. And I knew enough about what was going on to like hold her head up so it wasn't

[00:07:05] being on the ground. And then she quit seizing and then she looked at me and asked me who I was

[00:07:10] and I didn't know her. And it was this very interesting intense moment. And so then it was

[00:07:15] trying to go get help and get her connected with her family. And I think after that,

[00:07:20] I think I prayed three different times before restarting a message where it was like,

[00:07:24] we should pray for this girl. So we prayed and I said, amen. And then felt totally

[00:07:29] uncomfortable just jumping back into the message and like, we're going to pray again.

[00:07:33] I really struggled to recover. But yeah, my first sermon, I didn't put anybody to sleep,

[00:07:38] but I nearly put someone into a coma. You nearly killed someone. Yeah.

[00:07:42] Yeah. It's tough to recover from that one. Yeah. Were her parents like elsewhere on the

[00:07:47] church campus? Yeah. She was there with her grandma. Her grandma is like in the main

[00:07:51] service and it was a girl who'd never been to youth groups. So it was clunky trying to

[00:07:54] find out how to connect her with family. Never saw her again. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Maybe she was an angel.

[00:08:01] Maybe. I don't know if it was an angel. I don't know what their purpose was. Probably not,

[00:08:08] just to humble me. Yeah. Well, that's great. What was your second sermon like?

[00:08:15] I don't remember any medical emergencies. Yes. Any interruptions?

[00:08:19] Well, that's just, yeah, it's remarkable. I've asked hundreds of people that and yours,

[00:08:23] I think is one of the best, at least memorable first sermon. Traumatic actually more than memorable.

[00:08:30] Yeah. For me and for her. So you tried three times to finish it up. Did you actually kind of

[00:08:37] get through the rest of your notes? Yeah. I think it did like the quick sprint through

[00:08:41] the rest of the points and thoughts. It wasn't like, oh, and now I know I've got these.

[00:08:45] It's like we're just going to wrap this up real quick and we're going to move on with our

[00:08:48] lives and pretend like today never happened. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So that was you as a substitute

[00:08:55] youth pastor for the day. Yeah. So, whichever I've known you for a long time. I know that

[00:09:00] you've been involved in various stages and kinds of youth ministry for quite a long time.

[00:09:06] How many years have you been involved in youth ministry? So between middle school

[00:09:10] ministry and then high school ministry and then young adult ministry,

[00:09:13] it's like over 17 years spent in those spaces before now a pastor in the church.

[00:09:17] Yeah. So that's a long time. Yeah. What is the average duration of a youth minister?

[00:09:23] Oh man, the shelf life's not good. I think it's just a couple of years. Okay. When I first started

[00:09:27] doing middle school ministry, I really had a conviction that I wanted to do it well and not

[00:09:32] just be another statistic that's a couple of years. I didn't want to see it as a stepping

[00:09:37] stone. I felt like students, I mean their souls, their eternal beings, they deserved

[00:09:42] better than just me mailing it in for 24 months or 36 months. So did seven years with middle school,

[00:09:49] did eight with high school at a separate church and then two with young adult at that church.

[00:09:54] Yeah. And did some extra teaching in the church during that season as well.

[00:09:58] It was a long stretch. Yeah. So what kept you there?

[00:10:03] Well, so born the son of a pastor and a church planter and didn't always see

[00:10:09] a church pastored in a way that I felt like was super balanced or healthy. And my dad would say that

[00:10:14] now that it was a struggle for him and lots of pressures and things. So I really was resistant

[00:10:19] to the idea of pastoring a church. Ironically, it wasn't until after suffering a gnarly stretch

[00:10:25] of depression and then of anxiety on the heels of that and then having to grow through

[00:10:31] that on the other side of real deep suffering was the first time that both my wife and

[00:10:36] I had said we felt like we could actually do this pastor church and felt like we could do it in a

[00:10:41] healthy way. So it wasn't until we suffered greatly that we actually thought we could do it until then

[00:10:46] I was so opposed to it that I thought it wasn't Peter Pan syndrome, like I don't want to grow

[00:10:50] up only be with students. It was me thinking I want to serve the Lord and serve families.

[00:10:54] I loved families more than even students. So this was a way for me to serve families

[00:11:00] and having a gift to teach it was a way for me to have a weekly rhythm of teaching.

[00:11:04] But that's why I stayed in youth ministry so long. I wasn't in a hurry to go

[00:11:08] pastor a church. It didn't happen often, but even at being asked like would you be a candidate at

[00:11:12] this church in such and such an area? I was always super fast to say like nope,

[00:11:18] not interested. It's not for me and it's not in the cards. So God did a great work

[00:11:21] in my heart to change that. But that's why I stayed in youth ministry so long.

[00:11:24] Yeah. So it sounds like you want to serve God and His people

[00:11:28] but we're reluctant to have that oversight role of the whole church community?

[00:11:33] Yes, definitely. Okay. And after suffering then you decided...

[00:11:39] Yeah. It may never... It's always lacked luster to me and it's never that it like all of a

[00:11:43] sudden became glamorous, seeming or looked like this beautiful desirable thing all of a

[00:11:48] sudden. It was just we had come through such a hard season and had really rebuilt our lives

[00:11:54] personally. My wife and I in our marriage that we felt like for the first time we could do this in a

[00:11:59] healthy way as a team and we're open then to walking through that door and excited about what

[00:12:06] that might look like. Okay. Well, to kind of like hone in on let's say even the preaching side of

[00:12:13] youth ministry, young adults ministry. I know that even now that you are no longer in that

[00:12:19] role the preponderance or the majority of your sermons have been preached to young people.

[00:12:24] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I know that there's a lot of like youth pastors and youth leaders who

[00:12:28] listen to this podcast. What are the things that you wish that you knew as a youth pastor?

[00:12:32] What are the... Because if somebody is going to be a youth pastor for a two-year stretch,

[00:12:36] they're never going to learn the sort of things that you learn four or five, six years into it.

[00:12:40] Is there any way you can give them a preview or help them out?

[00:12:43] Oh yes. I'll give you 30 seconds that'll sum up 15 years or more. No.

[00:12:47] It was humbling this last week. So here in Cork, Ireland now but last week in Vienna,

[00:12:52] Austria teaching at a school, they're teaching youth. It was the first time in a couple of years

[00:12:57] that I've spent a whole week teaching youth and it was humbling to get back into that mode

[00:13:02] and atmosphere recognizing that it's a change. But it was a good reminder of things that I did

[00:13:08] learn along the way and areas that I needed to grow and it was a great joy. Although you and

[00:13:13] I both we're teasing before hitting record, we're operating with about a half to three

[00:13:17] quarters of a brain. Yeah, because both of us have scratchy voices and head colds.

[00:13:22] Yes. I'm sick. You're sick. It's a joy. Well, let's get this on tape.

[00:13:27] Yeah, it'd be great. Let's record this moment in time. Yeah, teaching youth ministry was a great

[00:13:34] joy and I learned to say yes. And so if you're in youth ministry, I'd say yes to any opportunity

[00:13:39] you have to teach and to do your best in each of those situations, but I just didn't turn

[00:13:43] down opportunity. So I ended up teaching at a school when I first started doing youth ministry.

[00:13:47] So taught four or five days a week in classes and then taught in a youth group setting at least

[00:13:52] once a week. And then it became three Sunday morning services and one Wednesday night.

[00:13:58] So I taught four times a week in a school plus a weekend plus a Wednesday. So I was just

[00:14:02] constantly teaching. And I think you grow a lot just by having to get up and communicate

[00:14:08] and share. So I think saying yes to opportunity is a big deal. And for me, it's teaching is a

[00:14:15] difficult thing. I have a love hate relationship with it because it's challenging for me and my

[00:14:19] personality. I'm more introverted so it's pretty taxing. I do love it, but it's it exposes

[00:14:27] me to my own insecurities. And so it was hard to say yes to opportunity, but I'm really

[00:14:32] glad I did. I was terribly slow to find my own voice though for the first several years.

[00:14:39] Who's voice were you? I mean, it shifted too quick to even give you a list. Yeah, I think for all the

[00:14:46] right reasons. I mean, it was motivated by insecurity, but for all the right reasons of

[00:14:50] seeing people that I just so appreciated the gift that they have and the way that they

[00:14:55] talked about Jesus, the way that they ministered to my own heart. But I would hear myself

[00:15:00] long before anyone else could pick up that I was parodying somebody else. And I wasn't

[00:15:04] stealing their sermons. It was I'd hear myself the way it enunciates, the way I deliver a sentence

[00:15:10] really. And because of that up until just the last couple years, I quit listening to sermons.

[00:15:17] So for more than a decade, barely listened to anyone teach unless I was live in the room,

[00:15:22] because if I listened to them teach a couple times, I'd start to hear myself and go,

[00:15:25] ah, the way I said that is not Trevor, you know, that so and so. Okay. So it took me a

[00:15:31] long time to find my own voice. But I think it's really important, especially for a young preacher

[00:15:36] to and if need be to make hard decisions like I'm not going to listen, I'm just going to read.

[00:15:41] And that's what I've had to learn as a discipline to try to find my own way of teaching and

[00:15:46] communicating finding my own voice was a huge step. I mean, can you give us like,

[00:15:51] how did you do that? So you just stopped listening to certain people.

[00:15:54] And then then your voice just emerges out of the ooze. Yeah. I remember years ago hearing

[00:16:00] someone explain that like a truth plus your personality is like the way that you should

[00:16:06] communicate. And I think it was a real struggle for me to be okay with my own personality and my own

[00:16:13] voice. And so it was, it was having to get to the point where I could recognize this is how

[00:16:19] I would say this. This is the way that I would illustrate it. This is my own life and my story

[00:16:25] intertwined with this and not just me parroting somebody else or talking like them, or even it was

[00:16:31] funny. I was doing my notes like one friend because he had a half page of notes in his Bible

[00:16:36] and that's how I was teaching then it was another friend sat on the stool. So then I found

[00:16:40] myself on a stool with my Bible on my knee because he did that. And I just appreciated

[00:16:45] him as a person. I felt more comfortable hiding behind someone else than being myself.

[00:16:50] And it's pretty quirky. Yeah, but then isn't it hard to then those first steps into

[00:16:57] preaching as as Trevor, it is even more vulnerable because if they reject it, it's rejecting you.

[00:17:04] Oh yeah. I think that's why we hide behind those other people, at least for me. I know so much

[00:17:09] of it was motivated by insecurity. If someone didn't like my message or how I taught, I could in

[00:17:15] my mind at least be like, well, you know, they probably have an issue with someone. So

[00:17:18] basically right trying to be a mini version of yeah. Yeah, it's silly. But this is I think

[00:17:27] this is there's huge vulnerability in getting up to teach there's nothing like it. It's not just

[00:17:32] trying to give a persuasive argument. It's bearing your own heart and soul in front of people,

[00:17:37] sharing things that you're deeply passionate about that you believe have eternal impact asking

[00:17:42] the Holy Spirit to give life and power. My my words might have bone and structure and flesh on them,

[00:17:50] but I need him to breathe life into it for it to have impact in somebody's life. It's all of those

[00:17:55] pieces and knowing the whole time that like this could kind of fall apart in front of you. And

[00:18:01] yeah, it's it's an anxiety inducing process at times for me. I mean still in the front cover

[00:18:08] my Bible it I have a comment I wrote as a young man probably in my early 20s that just said this is

[00:18:14] not a crowd to be feared or an audience to entertain. This is a family to be loved. And I still in my

[00:18:20] mind often am playing that through as I walk up to teach that Lord, this is not some audience for

[00:18:26] me to entertain or a crowd to fear. This is a family your family that I'm here to love today.

[00:18:32] And I having that conviction still is what combats a lot of that anxiety. Yeah,

[00:18:39] that's that's that's real good. I think we'll title the episode after that. That's a

[00:18:44] well, did you Google it first? If it belongs to somebody else and not me, then give them credit.

[00:18:50] But yeah, yeah, Trevor O'Keefe, the guy who really believes in finding his own voice.

[00:18:55] Stole this quote from somebody else. That's yeah, I hope not. Well, yeah,

[00:19:00] and you mentioned some things about yeah, the the preaching is sharing a very personal part

[00:19:05] of yourself. And I'd love to come back to that in a few moments time, the idea of like,

[00:19:09] how much do we share oversharing versus undersharing? But I know that there's more lessons that you

[00:19:14] learned like in your years as a as a youth leader. Yeah, I guess, yeah, things that you did

[00:19:18] then that you've stopped doing now. Yeah, I think for a long time I man, I'd sit down

[00:19:24] to study and I'd get so excited about an illustration or a quote. And I found myself

[00:19:28] as I'd look back in those early handful of years, especially I was teaching and preaching

[00:19:35] illustrations and then using scripture to get from one illustration to the next versus the opposite.

[00:19:41] Because I get so excited about a story that I knew this will pull them in

[00:19:44] and this will capture their attention and they'll remember this. And then over time it was

[00:19:49] hearing students when they'd be so excited after a sermon saying like, Oh, you know,

[00:19:53] when you said this thing and realizing like, man, if the only thing that sticks with you as my

[00:19:58] funny story for my childhood, like what a waste of your time and your family's time who's trusting me

[00:20:03] to like partner with them to help to shepherd your soul. And so I had to learn to see it the

[00:20:09] opposite rather than just teaching an outline that outlined a text I needed to teach the text

[00:20:16] and I needed to have points from the text that weren't just an outline that were organizing

[00:20:20] thoughts, you know, creatively or whatever, and it needed to not just be driven by

[00:20:25] illustrations. But I think when you're first starting out, that's the tendency is you lean

[00:20:30] towards like, I'll find some good quotes and I'm going to make little comments from the text to

[00:20:35] leave from one quote to the next, or I'm going to find some good illustrations and do the same

[00:20:39] thing. I think, I think now at times I do a lousy job with illustration almost overcompensating

[00:20:45] for that. Really? Well, you had a killer illustration yesterday. You talked about

[00:20:52] a what like a flawed chunk of marble that was drug into the center of a town and then it was

[00:20:59] there for what 60 years. My only story, Mike, it's my one illustration. And there was different

[00:21:04] sculptors that looked at it and rejected it. And then it became Michelangelo's David. Yeah,

[00:21:09] it's a great illustration. It's a great illustration. You should Google it, look it up

[00:21:12] for the listening audience. It's a good one. Yeah, inside the flawed block that was rejected,

[00:21:17] the artisan saw something that was beautiful that we all appreciate, just like Levi, the tax

[00:21:23] collector. Jesus saw something in him that no one else did. He becomes Matthew, the gift of God who

[00:21:28] writes a gospel and we are indebted to it. It's a great illustration. Yeah, yeah. That's an

[00:21:32] illustration well used. And I remembered the illustration and you know, you didn't let me

[00:21:38] finish it. But you know, I also I know how that connected with what Jesus did and saw with

[00:21:43] that tax collector. So that was good. Thank you. I think I'm just far more purposeful and

[00:21:53] what would be the way to say it? Not reserved in using them, but just I'm very thoughtful and

[00:21:58] when I use them. Also the way I teach, I try to intertwine my own life throughout. So I'm not

[00:22:03] just teaching about the text, my own life, and it might not necessarily be illustration,

[00:22:07] but I'm talking a lot about in my own heart and reading this and this is how this week

[00:22:11] this has done this in my own heart or what it's reminded me of or given me confidence in.

[00:22:16] So it's not always just secondary stories like I used yesterday at the church,

[00:22:23] but trying to be more selective when I do rather than just hop skipping and jumping from one story

[00:22:27] or illustration in the next. Right, right, right. Okay. And anything else that you've learned?

[00:22:33] Oh man, the biggest thing? It's funny because I'm asking you questions about what have you

[00:22:37] learned in youth ministry? But I mean, again, the majority of your life in ministry has been

[00:22:43] in various youth capacities. So basically I'm saying what have you learned in ministry?

[00:22:48] Yeah, yeah. And in youth ministry, I always try to shoot slightly above the heads of my audience

[00:22:56] because I wanted them, I would tell them I'm asking you, I'm raising the bar for you,

[00:23:00] I'm asking you to come and meet me here. Like I need you to hang with me, but I think

[00:23:04] you're able to do this rather than me teaching to them or beneath them. And so it was me telling them

[00:23:10] that and teaching some theology or digging a little deeper. I mean, there are times,

[00:23:15] worked at a very large church that was, I was doing youth ministry, a youth group of a couple

[00:23:20] hundred students, but on the weekend got a call from the pastor saying that he was out because

[00:23:25] his mother was ill and it wasn't, it wasn't a good situation. And he asked that I'd fill

[00:23:30] in the message I was teaching a high school students was about a theology of suffering.

[00:23:33] I preached that weekend for the three weekend services and the main sanctuary. And I taught it

[00:23:39] slightly different, but the nuts and bolts were the same that I was teaching in youth group. I

[00:23:44] just would have communicated some of it different and I was, I could elaborate a bit more with

[00:23:49] the adults, but I always, although I did youth ministry for a long time, my preaching became

[00:23:57] what it is there and doesn't have much of a change over between youth group kids and now being an

[00:24:04] adult. Yeah, yeah. How like who helped you to I guess aim a little higher? Where did you get that

[00:24:11] idea to go a little bit over their heads? Well, to give to give room for people to reach up.

[00:24:18] I think that it's easy to ask somebody who's already a teenager wanting to be a young adult

[00:24:26] wanting to prove themselves. It's easy to ask them like him. I'm asking a lot of you, I know,

[00:24:30] but I think you want this. I think you want to be challenged and you want to grow. You want to be,

[00:24:35] you don't want to be talked to as a kid. You want to be they're always reaching for I'm trying to

[00:24:39] prove myself that I'm responsible, whatever it may be. So I just felt like it was a natural

[00:24:44] thing to do. And also I would listen sometimes to other people in my role and felt like

[00:24:51] felt like the way that they talked to the group. I just was like, I don't know,

[00:24:54] it almost feels condescending. For me, that was my take and I was like, I'm just going to do this

[00:24:59] different. Yeah. And so always tried to raise the bar some. Well, as a former youth, I visited

[00:25:08] various youth groups as a teenager. And, you know, I came under the ministry of Danny Ramos,

[00:25:15] who each of us have benefited from in the past. And that's one of the things that I really

[00:25:20] appreciated and always, and always have from him that he, he talked to us like we were like

[00:25:26] thinking, feeling intelligent human beings, you know, not buffoons to be entertained,

[00:25:33] but humans who could like think. And I really appreciated that I always have about him that

[00:25:41] there's something for everybody. There is, you know, as some would say, there's milk and meat

[00:25:45] and manna. There's something for everybody, but there's like the bulk of it is just like,

[00:25:49] you guys are going to be voting soon. You guys are gonna, you guys drive cars, you guys

[00:25:54] are making huge decisions in your life. And I want to communicate big truths about God to you.

[00:25:59] Yeah, I think it's great. And so that was always my goal as well. I want to lift the bar.

[00:26:04] I want to set it high. And I want to ask you will you meet me there?

[00:26:07] Yeah. And so I'd encourage guys definitely to do that, to try to lean on their groups and say,

[00:26:13] I'm going to ask a lot of you. Now, having said that, if I could go back in time,

[00:26:17] I probably would have taught shorter than I typically did with both junior high and high

[00:26:21] school. I wouldn't have asked them to sit for as long as I did. And I always knew I,

[00:26:26] I'm kind of, I think I did a good job as a youth pastor for all those years.

[00:26:30] I was not the quintessential youth pastor. I've never been a party in a box. I've never

[00:26:35] tried to be the hype man because it's just not in me. And so I knew I needed to pull

[00:26:40] leaders and volunteers around me to be that for the youth group to have that feel in order to,

[00:26:45] for me to feel comfortable just to be me teaching the way that I do, communicating the way that I do.

[00:26:51] And in youth ministry, especially, and still this way, pastoring a church, but

[00:26:55] I lean heavily on a relational ministry approach where I want students to know me.

[00:27:02] And because they knew me and knew that I cared about them and was a part of their life,

[00:27:06] they were willing to receive from a pulpit, not the opposite and not the other way around where it

[00:27:12] was like, well, they heard me preach and I'm worthy of admiration. And so they're stoked now to be

[00:27:16] around me. It was always the opposite approach. I think especially with youth ministry,

[00:27:21] it's slow plowing and it's not overnight success, but the willingness to do a relational

[00:27:27] ministry where you're with people because it then opens the door for them to receive

[00:27:31] as you teach and preach, I think goes a long ways and even allowed me, I think to teach longer

[00:27:37] than I otherwise could have because students were willing to hang with me because they knew me

[00:27:41] and loved me and knew that I really loved them as well.

[00:27:45] Okay, so speaking about people knowing you and then even getting to know you in the context

[00:27:51] of preaching, let's talk about how much do we disclose behind the pulpit or in our preaching

[00:27:58] and teaching. You mentioned that there's two dangers, there's people oversharing in the pulpit

[00:28:03] or undersharing, like where do you lean and help us think about that?

[00:28:08] Yeah, it's one of those areas that I think is morphed for me. Like there was a stretch of time

[00:28:12] where I once sort of student I had with me in youth ministry for years and then they were

[00:28:17] with another youth pastor and they commented after being, I think for four years with this

[00:28:22] other youth pastor, they said, you know, I've been with them for four years. I don't know

[00:28:25] that I know anything about. I don't actually know him. I thought that's too bad, not just in

[00:28:30] personal relationship but in a pulpit ministry. I do think people should feel as though they

[00:28:35] know us and they might not need to know everything about us. And there are things that I think

[00:28:40] don't belong in a pulpit. However, I don't think that they should be looking at us going,

[00:28:46] man, you're such a mystery. Like I've been here for years every week listening

[00:28:49] and I have no idea who you are or what you're passionate about. So there are moments in time

[00:28:55] like that that made me check myself and go, am I really sharing with some vulnerability?

[00:28:59] But I'd mentioned before like hitting an early season of depression. And when that happened,

[00:29:04] there are a lot of things I did to get healthy again, hitting it from every angle to work

[00:29:09] through that. But it lasted for like a solid three months and then a couple of

[00:29:12] months of pretty severe anxiety. And I had a month of vacation saved up I could

[00:29:17] I could utilize but I was still pastoring a group of people, of students during that stretch.

[00:29:23] After a month I came back and was still not well for several months. And when I had to

[00:29:27] re-engage with the group I told my wife I'm more afraid of what I could become if I can

[00:29:34] compartmentalize this and get in front of people and be whole and well and polished

[00:29:39] and have them think I'm good while feeling like I'm dying inside. I'm more afraid

[00:29:43] of what I could become if I do that successfully. Like looking ahead in years or decades,

[00:29:49] if I can compartmentalize and do this, what could I become in the future?

[00:29:53] That's that was more unnerving to me than standing in front of people and vulnerability

[00:29:56] and wiping a couple of tears and saying I'm a shell of myself today but I'm holding on to hope

[00:30:03] and holding on to faith that Jesus is good even though I'm hurting and have never been in

[00:30:07] this place before. So as my wife and I after a year or I'm sorry month off when we were talking

[00:30:13] about re-engaging we talked about how if we were going to re-engage and if I was going to get back

[00:30:19] into a pulpit it needed to be that I would teach and lead going forward with a new level of vulnerability

[00:30:26] that would let people see my woundedness and then that would let people see where God was healing

[00:30:32] that and restoring that which was painful and uncomfortable for me because I'm more of a

[00:30:37] private person. Sure yeah but even like it was sermon series during that stretch of time it

[00:30:41] was like doing a sermon series on on Christ wanting us whole not just healed physically but

[00:30:50] the shalom like us being whole and emotional health it was doing a series on forgiveness on

[00:30:55] the heels of that and letting people into some of my journey as God was walking me through things

[00:31:01] and it's dramatically shifted I think the way that I talked to people. I mean I was sharing

[00:31:05] with you yesterday and your wife that I had shingles in the fall because of yes church

[00:31:10] things but someone in our family had suffered a mental health collapse and I mean we stayed with

[00:31:17] friends in a hotel because of death threats and it's quite the gnarly stretch and then they were

[00:31:22] in jail and then when they got released they needed me to help them to get situated and so I had

[00:31:27] shingles break out and I got in front of the church and with permission from my wife for sure

[00:31:33] but got up and shared like this is what I'm personally carrying and I haven't carried it well and

[00:31:39] because of that like I've dealt with some severe anxiety in this stretch and I need to manage this

[00:31:44] better and humbly confess to you that I've really not I've not honored the Lord and taking rest

[00:31:49] because I've been too arrogant and I've not managed my stress well because I've tried to

[00:31:54] carry it rather than casting cares on him and talked through it with the church and so I've

[00:32:00] had to learn that I need to be willing to expose enough of my humanity to where I feel

[00:32:06] uncomfortable and know that some people won't like that but if I'm not sharing enough that I'm

[00:32:11] uncomfortable I don't know that I'm sharing enough and so I'm okay with letting people see that I'm

[00:32:17] just a human I get to be their pastor and shepherd and teacher which is a gift and privilege

[00:32:23] but I'm okay with them seeing that I'm still a frail human who deeply needs the love and

[00:32:30] grace of Jesus and who leans on the grace of Jesus so I don't just expose my vulnerabilities

[00:32:36] I'm always going to expose them in the context of talking about the grace of God being sufficient

[00:32:40] for those vulnerabilities so it always goes back full circle to that. Do you feel that you've ever

[00:32:46] overshared? Oh for sure and what happens after you when something comes out you ever think

[00:32:53] oops that was too much beyond the self loathing? I think there there have been moments in time

[00:32:59] where I've overshared and you know you learn the lesson early with your wife that like oh I get

[00:33:04] permission for anything that involves her that kind of thing so I've done that in the early years

[00:33:08] but I do think there are moments where I realized I'm bleeding in front of these people when I

[00:33:13] should be probably sitting with a counselor, a therapist or a friend because I think we've

[00:33:17] probably all sat and listened to somebody get in front of a crowd of people and share things

[00:33:22] and at least for me I'll sit there and think I think what you need today is not a pulpit

[00:33:25] you need a friend and I don't know that the pulpit should be utilized as a close confidant

[00:33:31] and friend for you to offload these things in process so it's one thing to verbally process

[00:33:36] in front of a crowd of people about your emotion or your hurt. I think it's a very different thing

[00:33:41] to let them into your vulnerability and hurt and let them see just oh I'm a broken human

[00:33:47] who deeply needs the grace of God and look at what God is doing in the midst of this.

[00:33:52] I might walk with a limp and people in my church know this that that limp is not a physical thing

[00:33:57] but it's that I've been deeply wounded and dealt with depression and anxiety

[00:34:02] and clinical stretches and because of that I do walk different than I used to

[00:34:08] but I'll tell our church I think that that limp has given me more than it cost me though

[00:34:13] because it's given me a real dependence on the grace and care of God

[00:34:17] and it's also given me a deep sense of compassion for people who are hurting. I think of like in the

[00:34:23] Old Testament Jacob and his encounter with God where God touches his hip and the Psalms it mentions

[00:34:27] he walked leaning on a cane really for the rest of his life like he was a changed man

[00:34:33] and that undoubtedly was uncomfortable and it slowed him down however the limp gave him

[00:34:38] more than it cost him because every day he'd limp it reminded him that was real

[00:34:43] like God really showed up in my life and not only did he show up but his promises he made

[00:34:48] I was afraid my brother who I was going to meet the next day that this was the end of my life

[00:34:52] that he was going to come after me and my life was over and instead God told me I had a future

[00:34:56] and my future descendants were going to be a part of his eternal plan

[00:35:00] and that wasn't too good to be true that was real and my limp reminded me of God's gracious

[00:35:05] plan for the ages and that I get to play a part in it. I think the same of Paul that

[00:35:09] I've got a thorn in the flesh but I learned through it that his grace is sufficient,

[00:35:13] his strength is made perfect in my weakness. Our people at our church would probably tell you

[00:35:20] if you ask like about me I would at some point I'll bet most of them would say like oh and you

[00:35:24] know what he's a guy who's been through some stuff but God's used it to shape his heart and

[00:35:31] make him a really compassionate person or God's used it to shape his heart to where he's drawn

[00:35:35] to people who are hurting or he would tell you that although maybe he wouldn't have chosen some of

[00:35:39] the things that he suffered through that he's come to see that it gives him more than it cost him

[00:35:45] to think vulnerability that lets people into that journey and then invites them to bring their own

[00:35:50] woundedness to the table I think is a gift. The like I'm bleeding in front of you I'm verbally

[00:35:56] processing I can't believe I've been wounded rejected people whatever I think is is messy.

[00:36:03] Yeah yeah so I asked you if you ever like overshared I guess the follow-up have you ever

[00:36:09] undershared have you ever maybe like sat down and think like you know I could have I could have

[00:36:13] said more and I appreciate what you said during that time of suffering coming back after a month

[00:36:19] of sabbatical and then making the decision that like I'm not going to pretend that I'm okay I'm

[00:36:24] going you know so thanks for letting us into that. Have there been times that you've

[00:36:30] you know you've been vulnerable up into a point and then felt that you should have done more?

[00:36:35] Yeah there've been moments where I'd look I'd finish a sermon and I'd look and go

[00:36:38] ah I missed an opportunity to invite people to be human and vulnerable and to accept grace

[00:36:47] and healing and peace and comforts. So times for sure were afterwards be like I it was a

[00:36:52] missed opportunity because my goal every week is not to like I'm gonna drag people into my

[00:36:58] emotional drama or issues like that's not my goal my goal in preaching really is I want to expose

[00:37:03] people to their own hearts and the heart of God and then I want them to make a decision can they

[00:37:08] trust the heart of God but I want them to see their own heart and if their heart is wounded

[00:37:12] in a need of healing or if their heart is wicked in line to them or it's drawn to things

[00:37:16] that are broken I want to help expose that and to in moments where I can say and this is my

[00:37:25] we're talking about a wounded heart here and in my own life it's looked like this and in yours

[00:37:29] I think sometimes we by not being vulnerable we miss the opportunity to invite people into that

[00:37:34] vulnerability yeah with us yeah so there are definite moments where I look back and go ah I missed

[00:37:40] I missed the chance. Yeah well there's actually another pastor here in Cork Tom Hoban he hasn't

[00:37:46] been on the show yet but he will be one day he and I were talking once and he kind of drew

[00:37:50] a triangle and he says that like true preaching it has it's the real God and it's it's the real you

[00:37:57] talking to the real them and you know God's real no matter what but kind of it's up to us

[00:38:04] whether we're going to bring our real self to that and then as we are real and honest that

[00:38:10] it can sort of unlock the real heart of other people and so there's that kind of three-dimensional

[00:38:15] aspect to that triangle triangulation of reality that comes across in good preaching you know and

[00:38:23] that happened yesterday at Calvary Cork when you you know you didn't actually go super deep into

[00:38:29] much of your do actually here's okay I have two different ways I can I can take this

[00:38:35] okay number one I'm not I'm not super like that I'm you're talking and I'm saying like yeah

[00:38:41] I'm giving like mms and maybe the listener is thinking oh yeah Mike is also one of those

[00:38:45] vulnerable guys I'm actually not like and I'm and in the past I think 12 months maybe two years

[00:38:53] I've been kind of working on it intentionally and thoughtfully and yeah I think even this you

[00:38:58] know lately I've talked about some pain points in my life that I usually don't in the pulpit

[00:39:05] like I would with a counselor I would with a friend and you're kind of both to me and then

[00:39:10] others but I've kind of kept it out of the pulpit because I don't want to bleed all over people and

[00:39:14] I don't want to manipulate but kind of one of the first times that I even kind of tried it was like

[00:39:20] at the June Calvary Chapel pastors conference in Costa Mesa you know kind of being like I'm

[00:39:26] actually going to try this whole vulnerability thing and I think it it was the real me and

[00:39:32] it was the real God and hopefully connect you with the real people that were there

[00:39:35] but like afterwards it just kind of sat down and just like this like

[00:39:40] I was like what have I done I can't I remember like feeling so heavy sitting down afterwards

[00:39:44] and being like I can't take that back and that was that that happened you know and so that was

[00:39:51] me kind of almost dabbling on a very public stage but it also it was public stage but it

[00:39:57] was also separate from the congregation that I live with and minister to and

[00:40:04] and living life together with so anyway I'm just kind of saying like I don't have even a question

[00:40:09] or anything I'm just saying like yeah I hear you I'm trying I'm working towards that yeah

[00:40:14] any advice or how can I keep at this um first exhausting driver it is actually you should list

[00:40:20] in the show notes a link to that message if there's a way to do it okay because your

[00:40:23] message was fabulous I think it's behind a paywall um what might be behind a paywall yeah

[00:40:28] and it may have cost you a vulnerability hangover yeah so where it was like yeah just feel wiped um

[00:40:34] I'm super sensitive to emotional and spiritual manipulation oh me too super sensitive probably

[00:40:40] more more than I need to be yes and I think almost to a fault for me and so I'm very careful

[00:40:46] that I'm not just throwing in the haymaker at the end of a mediocre message that's like

[00:40:50] let me drag you into an emotional thing yeah because I really struggle when I hear people

[00:40:56] that I even begin to feel like they might be doing that for me is I shut down real quick

[00:41:02] so I'm very careful not to do it and like my hobby horse is just Jesus I tell my church I teach

[00:41:09] the same message every week like I just I teach Jesus I teach the gospel I talk about grace

[00:41:15] it's not like I talk about Trevor's woundedness I've just learned that I should be human enough

[00:41:21] for people to hear me say if I'm talking about prayer they should know where I'm struggling right now

[00:41:27] in my prayer life uh and even if it's like my wife and I were in a weekly or a daily

[00:41:32] rhythm of praying together every evening and we're not in that rhythm now and we need to

[00:41:36] get back to it and maybe you do too but it needs to be little things like that it could be any

[00:41:41] topic so my my goal is not just to bleed about emotional health um it's to talk about Jesus

[00:41:48] and his great grace but I do think that people should see us as human and we get to be not just

[00:41:56] leaders who point to ourselves but we get to be leaders who point as humans to Jesus

[00:42:02] who is healing us and making us whole in the process and letting people know that we are

[00:42:07] still in process and because we are first in the pool in a sense in vulnerability like hey I'll be the

[00:42:14] first man in today yeah I get to say then would you come with me it was not that long ago teaching

[00:42:21] the church and talking about idolatry in a modern context you know here talking about I think

[00:42:25] idolatry can look like these things in our modern setting it's not just bowing to old idols

[00:42:30] and then it's taking a deep breath shifting the cadence of how I'm going to speak

[00:42:34] and shifting the tone that I'm speaking and saying to people you know I think I'd be selling

[00:42:39] you short if I wasn't honest with you to say that I know I have my own idols in my heart that I

[00:42:44] struggle with and I'll even be willing to share and be the first man in the pool and tell you

[00:42:49] like I have an idol of competency I want to be viewed as competent so much that my work week

[00:42:56] stretches beyond my work hours and it shouldn't that my days off are eaten up by pressure

[00:43:03] in preparation for a Sunday morning because although yes I desire God to be glorified here

[00:43:08] and him to have my best I also have this weird desire that's driven by insecurity for me to be

[00:43:14] viewed by you as competent and even if I reach that goal it's an empty and shallow one and I know

[00:43:20] that and yet I still struggle with it and so for me to Sabbath is an act of faith and it's also

[00:43:27] an act that's costly for me because I'm willing to lay down that idol and let it die every week

[00:43:33] that I'm willing to say you know what I'm home with my family today on a Saturday rather than

[00:43:38] prepping for the weekend and then to say to people and then in your life what does that look like

[00:43:43] what's idolatry in your heart because it's changed in different seasons for me but I know in this

[00:43:48] season this is one of the things God brought to the surface this week for me that I want to

[00:43:53] let you in on and even publicly confess and say I want to die to this and I want to I want to chop

[00:43:59] it up and burn it and I'm trying to do that with Jesus help okay yeah well that's a great yeah

[00:44:07] modeling of it yet not in such a way that draws undue attention towards towards you in your life

[00:44:15] but to say yeah essentially I'll put my cards down first and then people then in their own

[00:44:22] hearts or minds or perhaps even in a time of confession or prayer afterwards then they can

[00:44:26] follow suit yeah I once read somewhere it was in a marriage book that uh in a marriage where

[00:44:32] grace and forgiveness is expected in the culture then honesty is natural and I think the same is

[00:44:41] true in human relationships across the board and in a church if grace and forgiveness is

[00:44:47] the culture of the church and the norm and is and I think one of the ways that I can establish that is

[00:44:52] that if I demonstrate that I'm free to be human and real and broken and flawed publicly that I'm

[00:44:59] setting the culture for the church that's inviting them then to be honest about themselves

[00:45:06] so I think it's a cultural piece within our church yeah that I think is a is a beautiful

[00:45:11] thing it is a costly thing at times it's cringe and it's come back to bite me where people

[00:45:16] have used some of those things against me I'm very careful not to like oh vulnerability is I'm sharing

[00:45:22] these things about my kids issues like I don't think that that's mine to share I might share

[00:45:27] stories about our family or funny things or whatever yeah but vulnerability is not like oh and then

[00:45:31] I'm going to tell you my wife's idols like her her issues with idols yeah like nope not for me to

[00:45:36] share yeah that kind of vulnerability totally unhealthy and not great but I'm willing to do

[00:45:41] it for myself and I think it's building a culture for us where people are allowed to be human and to

[00:45:47] come knowing that they'll receive grace not just from God but even from us because we're a culture

[00:45:52] that says we're okay I like I I think I think prayer our relationship with God is ultimately

[00:45:59] answering God's original question in the garden where God asked Adam where are you

[00:46:03] I think we get to answer that and our choice is either to hide like cover up or be exposed

[00:46:11] and I don't think we just answer that between us and God I think we answer that between us in the

[00:46:15] church because it's his body like what a beautiful gift that we get to come so separate from coming

[00:46:23] you know into a workplace or a friend group like we're coming to be with the body of Christ

[00:46:30] and God is present when we're there and I think when we walk into a church we get to be real and

[00:46:35] answer that question with honesty rather than just being covered up to be willing to be exposed

[00:46:41] knowing that Christ provides a better covering than some itchy fig leaves right yeah now forgive

[00:46:47] like the the crassness of this question but I mean does does it work like as in like does it

[00:46:53] create that that that hoped for expectation of like other people feel they can do the same

[00:47:00] I'd like to think so okay yeah I do think so okay um you know you joke at times on this podcast

[00:47:06] that like you're not much for small talk like the opening banter we tried yeah and for me personally

[00:47:13] like the way God's made me as well like I'm not much for small talk like I love people just love

[00:47:20] people but I love depth of relationship or depth of conversation and so I don't want to just know

[00:47:26] like how you doing good okay like I want to know how science and so that carries into a pulpit for me

[00:47:34] and that's become the culture of our church I think because I'm willing to demonstrate

[00:47:39] that I'm here for something more than us just knowing each other's names I'm here to see

[00:47:45] God transform my life and us to do that together as a community so I'm willing to share where I'm at

[00:47:51] in that journey and I think it has effectively invited other people into it so there's a

[00:47:57] different depth to things in our church culture and community so I do think it's worked yeah yeah

[00:48:04] again is there a more crass way of putting it I don't know but um but yeah I think that

[00:48:09] you know because again we talked about you know youth ministry back there and then

[00:48:12] but here and now yeah you're leading a church that I that I love to to visit you know Olive branch is

[00:48:19] like one of our favorite churches to go to there's like a real kind of a uniqueness of like people's

[00:48:26] like sticking around afterwards I know that it's not the only church that does that but

[00:48:30] like people seem to really like each other and there really is um meaningful connections that

[00:48:35] take place like before and during and after and so I can't speak to all of the ingredients

[00:48:43] but I think that there's an ingredient that's gone into that and you're leading with vulnerability

[00:48:47] from the front and that does shape a culture oh absolutely I I agree too and maybe I'm biased

[00:48:53] or it's confirmation bias from like yeah see it's working yeah maybe there's other things but

[00:48:56] I do think it's at least a part of how God is developing our culture and community where

[00:49:01] people do love each other and hang around because there's a depth of relationship there

[00:49:05] where they're sharing burdens and they're caring for each other and they're involved in

[00:49:09] each other's lives and I think part of that is the byproduct of not just getting up to teach

[00:49:14] truth yeah but let's see our own hearts let's see gods and let's be willing to let our flaws

[00:49:21] and brokenness be seen so that Jesus can heal those yeah yeah okay well I'd love to ask kind

[00:49:27] of the final the final question of like how are you trying to improve but before that anything

[00:49:31] else like like we're talking about some some serious heavy issues like final thoughts on

[00:49:37] vulnerability in the pulpit um I mean always with permission for your wife especially if you're

[00:49:46] sharing more than just your own heart um I think is a big deal because I never want to drag her

[00:49:52] or my family in front of a church and have them feel exposed in a way that's not fair

[00:49:57] so I'm very careful I'm also very aware so I function as a pastor in our church and then

[00:50:03] as a chaplain in the community so working with first responders uh I'll give a short plug to say

[00:50:09] it's a great way even as a preacher it's a great way for me to have my hand on the pulse of not

[00:50:13] just a private study or my church congregation but the community outside of it that I know

[00:50:18] that I should have in mind as I'm preaching teaching but I'm exposed to lots of private

[00:50:22] moments in people's lives as a chaplain and then as a pastor as well I'm very careful not to expose

[00:50:32] people and their hurt their woundedness I'm willing to do that for myself but I'm not

[00:50:38] going to say you know just like I was with this couple this week who just miscarried and boy are

[00:50:43] they heartbroken um I'm very careful not to do that I try to do things in a way that would

[00:50:50] honor people and not make choices like that for them but at the same time I will use sometimes

[00:50:57] moments or things or situations as illustrations just very carefully tastefully and then with permission

[00:51:03] before using them because I never want to be and have been in front of people even using it as

[00:51:08] a nameless example of something and talk about someone's woundedness knowing that they're in

[00:51:13] the room even if I'm not using their name yeah all of a sudden they feel that the attention

[00:51:17] of the room is on them they didn't make that choice I did for them that's totally unfair

[00:51:22] so I just think trying to be careful that we're not just trying to expose other people's

[00:51:27] brokenness woundedness it's okay if I'm willing to walk in front of people and let them see it form

[00:51:33] in my own life but I shouldn't be just pulling up examples especially from our congregation or

[00:51:38] community yeah yeah real real wise sometimes I you know the church that I am part of

[00:51:45] it's the only church I've ever pastored you know sometimes I kind of wish like man I wish I had

[00:51:52] an old church you know that I could mine for stories but I don't I only have this own this church

[00:51:57] and what do you think about yeah telling stories from previous ministry locations do you feel that

[00:52:04] you have more permission to talk about anonymous people from your old church um I'm still careful

[00:52:10] I still so I've ministered over 20 years in San Diego County yeah and even in North

[00:52:15] County in North San Diego and so I still have so many relationships and connections and it's

[00:52:19] funny you don't know who's listening even via podcast good point and I mean I have former

[00:52:24] students who have a podcast that I came across just a couple weeks ago that's like a deconstruction

[00:52:28] podcast oh and it was heartbreaking to see like the list and recognize all the show guests were

[00:52:34] former students as well but I know that the guy who's hosting it listens at times to our church

[00:52:40] so I'm not going to mention those things I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing in the same

[00:52:45] way it's like in the city there are guys in fire service and who work in the city who now are listening

[00:52:49] to our church podcast and so I have to be very careful what I'm saying about some of the doors

[00:52:54] that God's opened there even or using those things as illustrations so I'm still very cautious

[00:53:00] and don't feel like I've got just some green light you know to use things maybe if I'd moved

[00:53:05] out of state or something I'd feel a little different yeah yeah maybe but you're right with

[00:53:10] podcasts they go they go everywhere yeah um yeah there's a guy he's um uh former member of our

[00:53:18] church he preached a couple times um I was gone once and then he preached about faithfulness

[00:53:25] in the workplace I think Colossians talking about being working unto the Lord and then he

[00:53:29] just kind of was just spitballing given some examples of ways that God's used him

[00:53:33] in the workplace and then talked about you know somebody who um you know had a cancer diagnosis

[00:53:39] and he talked about that and ways he's got to minister to him in the lunch room and uh yeah

[00:53:45] turns out that person found it listened to it lodged a HR complaint oh wow he lost his job

[00:53:53] because of that tough lesson yeah yeah so that's a real strong so I remember even

[00:53:59] listening to the audio of the record and I was like oh that's maybe a bit too much that's kind of

[00:54:04] crossed across the line and I should have I should have taken it offline but instead I kind of was

[00:54:10] like oh it's going to be a teachable moment oh yeah don't don't do that and then it started a HR

[00:54:15] issue so there's that and then secondly um Jim Wilson who wrote a great book called

[00:54:22] illustrating well um he was on this show and he very strongly thinks that pastors should never

[00:54:31] use their kids as illustrations at all ever what do you think your pastor's kid I am yeah and so

[00:54:40] and and thing is so is he and he says that it makes it very it made it very hard for him

[00:54:47] to listen to his dad's sermons because he never knew when he would show up in it and in what um

[00:54:54] whether it be a positive story or negative story and so he kind of vow vowed to not ever use his

[00:54:59] kids as illustrations it's funny yeah and he says he says also even if you get the kids permission

[00:55:07] yeah he says well the consent of somebody under 18 doesn't count yeah and they don't know what

[00:55:13] they're saying and there's power dynamics too because you know thoughts on that as a pastor's kid

[00:55:17] who also is a pastor who has kids yeah I do remember some moments where as a kid I was like man I kind

[00:55:23] of hate that these people think that they know me and that they know my issues because they'll

[00:55:29] come over to me at church and be like hey yeah I know you've got this you're giving your parents

[00:55:33] them grief lately huh like I hated that so cringe yeah um I'm very careful with my kids I will tell

[00:55:41] maybe heartwarming stories or silly moments that include us as a family but I I share so little

[00:55:49] about them that my kids at times will see me studying and say hey dad you want to use that

[00:55:53] story remember that funny thing I said recently yeah which I don't know how Jim would feel about

[00:55:59] that but um right I mentioned earlier I think saying yes to opportunity is a good thing and

[00:56:05] even for me still I do say no to a lot of opportunities but I say yes to ones that I know

[00:56:11] will stretch me like my kids go to Christian school teaching a chapel at their school is

[00:56:15] something I'll say yes to because it stretches me as a Bible teacher yeah in a way I don't like

[00:56:20] but uh in those settings they're quick to throw me hey dad remember this thing or this could

[00:56:25] connect to that um so it's funny that they almost clamor for it yeah weird way so I'm willing

[00:56:33] to share things if it's silly or lighthearted or if it's endearing an endearing moment for us

[00:56:39] as a family but otherwise typically try to steer away from it okay yeah I don't have a hard line of a

[00:56:48] viewpoint as uh brother Jim does but it's it's a notable one and I like to get people's thoughts

[00:56:55] on it when I get a chance yeah and he literally wrote a book about sermon illustrations so I think

[00:57:00] his opinion carries his might matter quite a bit it carries some weight yes all right so

[00:57:05] finally as promised last question so we heard about your first sermon long ago 17 plus years ago

[00:57:12] how do you want your next sermon to be better how do you want to be like continually improving

[00:57:17] is there something that you keep coming back to and think I want to get better at this yeah I

[00:57:24] always my struggle is with the length of a sermon and so it's the editing process is always

[00:57:29] a challenge for me because man sometimes I feel like on the cutting room floor of my office like

[00:57:34] I feel like I've I've lost children like I'm looking at the ground being like oh this is not just

[00:57:41] interesting information or important information this is these are true things that that mean

[00:57:46] something to me and have been life giving to my own heart and I think that whole process is painful

[00:57:52] so I'm always trying to do a better job with that um for years I've

[00:57:59] was preaching with two pages of notes and then it was a half page of notes and

[00:58:04] then it was an outline in my bible and sticky note and that's it and I'm almost a manuscript and the

[00:58:09] last I don't know five to ten years probably I mean it's been a chunk of time um because I think

[00:58:17] I can do much more with well thought out wording for how I say what I say yeah I can communicate

[00:58:24] much more in a shorter period of time because I can communicate it more effectively yeah without

[00:58:29] dancing around looking for the right way to say it or being like I don't know how clear that is let

[00:58:32] me try again so I write out quite a bit now and I think that that's been a good step for me but

[00:58:39] I still struggle with editing things down um the biggest shift that happened in my teaching

[00:58:46] was years ago I remember hearing someone as they were teaching a passage and they commented

[00:58:54] referencing the Old Testament in the Exodus story that the rock that provided water and the

[00:58:59] wilderness that that rock was Christ and remember thinking like wow that's a reach and then realize

[00:59:05] like he actually had read it from the text and so this was as a youth pastor hearing that and

[00:59:10] looking and being like what in the world Paul the apostle seeing this and then oh well Jesus

[00:59:14] saw himself in the Exodus story as well and it shifted like your Christ centered preaching

[00:59:20] module I think is so very good and helpful for people and something I wish I'd heard when I first

[00:59:24] started but it was God using just the text itself to show me that this is the way that the Bible

[00:59:29] views the Bible and so I had taught a lot of great moral talks for a long time that were true

[00:59:37] to a text and did not lead anyone to a savior and if anything crushed people under the weight

[00:59:44] of an example and I think Jesus was more than an example I think he was a savior I agree so I think

[00:59:50] I've done a much better job then in the second half of 20 years of teaching for sure but even maybe

[00:59:55] that was five or six or seven or eight years in um but still I feel like I'm constantly growing as

[01:00:01] a gospel centered not just that like my hook at the end is the Jesus juke that lands it across

[01:00:07] but that throughout the whole of a passage that again and again we're looking back towards Jesus

[01:00:12] as a person we're looking back towards grace as the gift that God gives us that's the that's the

[01:00:18] gospel's power life-giving power not just to save me but transform me and so I think that I'm more

[01:00:24] gospel saturated than ever and I hope to continue to grow in that yeah yeah um do you know something

[01:00:32] else well actually this is not a room for improvement just something I want to say

[01:00:37] one of the elders of the church he said this to me I think he told you too

[01:00:41] but he said that he loved your sermon because you just you smiled like almost the whole way

[01:00:46] through and especially when you talked about Jesus you smiled and he um he commented to me that like

[01:00:52] I think Trevor really believes this stuff yeah so that that really comes through as well you're

[01:00:57] like enjoying Jesus in front of people yeah I can be rather intense in teaching but man how do

[01:01:03] you like how do you talk about Jesus and his grace gracious care for us and the gracey

[01:01:09] extensors how do you do that with a scowl like how do you not have your body exemplify the truth

[01:01:16] that that not just warms my heart but transforms it how do I not do that like with my with my body

[01:01:22] and posture exemplifying it I'm not I'm not on a pogo stick bouncing up and down and like

[01:01:28] but man it how do I not speak of those things with people seeing the joy on my face yeah yeah

[01:01:35] well you're yeah Christ centered not just in your text or in your preaching but it comes through on

[01:01:40] your face so on that cheesy conclusion I think man put it in a hallmark card that'll sell yeah

[01:01:49] well thanks Trevor um and for the listeners of this podcast I hope that this episode and all the

[01:01:53] idiotic expositors collective helps you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation

[01:01:59] of God's word thanks again Trevor yeah thanks for having me all right well thanks for listening

[01:02:06] all the way to the end I really enjoyed my time with Trevor and you know I'm looking forward to

[01:02:13] seeing him at the end of June in Costa Mesa for the Calvary Chapel Global Network Passers and

[01:02:21] Leaders Conference and what you can do is you can follow a link in our show notes

[01:02:28] for how you can get registered and also when you're there you can find the previously mentioned

[01:02:35] message that I preached last year the message that gave me a vulnerability hangover there's a

[01:02:41] link to that in the show notes as well so thanks so much for listening you are investing into

[01:02:50] your pulpit ministry as a way to love the family of God remember it's not a crowd to be feared or an

[01:02:59] audience to be entertained but a family to love thanks for building this podcast into your week

[01:03:05] whether you listen every Tuesday or you dip in from time to time I know you're listening because

[01:03:11] you care about God's word and you care about God's people so thank you so much and I hope that

[01:03:18] this conversation and all that we do at expositors collective helps you to grow in your personal

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